| === ddaa [n=ddaa@nor75-18-82-241-238-155.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #launchpad-meeting | ||
| === jamesh [n=james@window.gnome.org] has joined #launchpad-meeting | ||
| SteveA | OMG a pony! | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ddaa | SteveA: jamesh: lifeless: meeting about to start | 01:01 |
| ddaa | once mpool finds the way | 01:01 |
| === mpool [n=mbp@ozlabs.tip.net.au] has joined #launchpad-meeting | ||
| ddaa | Meeting starts | 01:02 |
| ddaa | All things bazaar, yadda yadda yadd | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * roll call | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * production status | 01:02 |
| ddaa | Current focus | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * Smart server | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * SFTP advertising (jamesh) | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * vcs-import knits (ddaa) | 01:02 |
| ddaa | * supermirror branch browser | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * private branches | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * dyson | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * empty hosted branches | 01:03 |
| ddaa | Usual end | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * other meeting actions | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * critical bugs | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * pending sysadmin tasks | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * any other business | 01:03 |
| ddaa | https://launchpad.canonical.com/BazaarMeetingAgenda | 01:03 |
| ddaa | * Roll call | 01:03 |
| ddaa | SteveA is on a pony | 01:03 |
| ddaa | I'm here | 01:03 |
| SteveA | hi | 01:03 |
| jamesh | hi | 01:03 |
| SteveA | what's the time limit on this meeting/ | 01:03 |
| SteveA | ? | 01:03 |
| ddaa | Normally until 11:45 | 01:04 |
| ddaa | lifeless: pingus | 01:04 |
| ddaa | Let's move forward. | 01:04 |
| ddaa | Production status | 01:04 |
| ddaa | https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/53825 | 01:05 |
| ddaa | Still out there | 01:05 |
| ddaa | Talked with lifeless about how to fix it and updated bug description | 01:05 |
| ddaa | Would be nice for somebody to do the BzrError -> oops thing soon | 01:05 |
| === ddaa looks at jamesh | ||
| SteveA | jamesh will be kinda occupied for the next 2 weeks | 01:06 |
| jamesh | we need to finish off the plan for doing error reporting from scripts | 01:06 |
| ddaa | Okay, then I'm happy to keep on spamming launchpad-error-reports for the time being | 01:06 |
| SteveA | jamesh: that can go on the agenda for next week's infra meeting | 01:06 |
| jamesh | there is a spec on the wiki about some of the work that needs to be done | 01:06 |
| mpool | ddaa: lifeless is ill, gives his apologies | 01:07 |
| jamesh | we should probably move on though, given that we aren't discussing details | 01:07 |
| ddaa | Last time I spoke to him, he was going to a birthday party ;) | 01:07 |
| ddaa | * sftp hosting advert | 01:07 |
| SteveA | birthday parties can do that to you | 01:08 |
| ddaa | jamesh still supposed to blog about team branches | 01:08 |
| ddaa | I take it nothing will happen there in the near future unless somebody else gets to do it | 01:08 |
| jamesh | I've written part of the article. Will post it to the launchpad list when I've fleshed it out | 01:08 |
| ddaa | Cool | 01:08 |
| ddaa | Looking forward to seeing that this week | 01:09 |
| ddaa | * vcs-imports knits | 01:09 |
| ddaa | Still waiting for spec review from lifeless and SteveA | 01:09 |
| ddaa | * supermirror branch browser | 01:09 |
| ddaa | spiv said it was focusing on that last week and should give us a delivery estimate soon, but is on leave | 01:10 |
| ddaa | * private branches | 01:10 |
| ddaa | I think there was no progress there | 01:10 |
| ddaa | still waiting for lifeless reply on spec review | 01:11 |
| ddaa | * dyson | 01:11 |
| ddaa | last week's action: jamesh to talk to sabdfl to loosen DB constraint, re grass bug. | 01:11 |
| ddaa | https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/53698 | 01:11 |
| jamesh | I talked with him and added a comment to the bug | 01:11 |
| jamesh | I also talked with Keybuk about whether there was a particular use case for recursively checking for matching tarballs | 01:12 |
| ddaa | I think that's quite a useful thing to do | 01:12 |
| ddaa | but maybe not by default | 01:12 |
| ddaa | Is that on somebody's business for the next couple of weeks? | 01:13 |
| jamesh | yep. In the grass case it probably isn't desirable, but it is for the other examples you posted | 01:13 |
| mpool | what is grass (in this context)? | 01:14 |
| jamesh | mpool: a GIS package | 01:14 |
| jamesh | geographical information systems | 01:14 |
| ddaa | mpool: see the bug, it was just a package with weird release names | 01:14 |
| mpool | ok | 01:15 |
| ddaa | that tripped a db integrity check | 01:15 |
| SteveA | from "Ge" the god of the earth, and "graphical" to do with drawings. | 01:15 |
| ddaa | So, it looks like nobody will be working on that in the near future. | 01:15 |
| ddaa | * empty hosted branches | 01:16 |
| ddaa | there's a bug in bzr about pushing to an existing directory and overwrite contents | 01:16 |
| ddaa | mpool: are you tracking that? | 01:16 |
| mpool | ddaa: i'm aware of it | 01:16 |
| jamesh | is this the case where we get an empty branch dir with no .bzr subdir | 01:16 |
| ddaa | I had some discussion with john in the bug, but I do not have the reference handp | 01:16 |
| jamesh | and bzr won't push to it? | 01:16 |
| ddaa | jamesh: yes | 01:17 |
| mpool | right | 01:17 |
| mpool | do you think it's a high priority? | 01:17 |
| ddaa | Yes, not critical, but pretty important. | 01:17 |
| ddaa | Since it's very easy to get into a situation where you get a busted bzr branch on the sftp server | 01:18 |
| ddaa | * Other meeting actions | 01:19 |
| ddaa | well, this part of the agenda is out of date | 01:19 |
| ddaa | mpool: you said you planned to do some nice spec braindumping | 01:19 |
| ddaa | branch viewing, reviews, email subscription, and so on | 01:20 |
| mpool | ddaa: most of that time has gone into supermirror-smartserver, and the svn roundtripping thing | 01:20 |
| mpool | i'll upload the smartserver spec | 01:20 |
| ddaa | Well spent time. | 01:20 |
| mpool | this is more of a continuing task for me than a particular action | 01:20 |
| ddaa | ack, will drop the action reminder from the agenda | 01:21 |
| mpool | we should talk about roundtripping after the formal completion of this meeting, perhaps verbally | 01:21 |
| ddaa | Time permitting, this meeting is followed by the launchpad weekly meeting | 01:21 |
| ddaa | * Critical bugs | 01:22 |
| ddaa | I started work on https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/37897 | 01:22 |
| ddaa | Plan to fix by making importd upload and retrieve cscvs source branches on a remote sftp | 01:22 |
| ddaa | That change will also enable a number of other nice things in the medium and long term | 01:23 |
| ddaa | And it's needed for correctness because the failure mode described in bug 37897 has changed with importd-bzr-native and I did not think of that in advance | 01:24 |
| ddaa | I had preimpl call with jamesh about that before meeting | 01:24 |
| ddaa | Will abuse bzrlib's SFTPTransport | 01:24 |
| mpool | (ok the empty-directory bug is https://launchpad.net/products/bzr/+bug/30576, have marked it for 0.10) | 01:25 |
| ddaa | and use that as a paramiko wrapper | 01:25 |
| ddaa | bzrlib.transport.get_transport is the best thing since sliced bananas methink | 01:25 |
| jamesh | I wouldn't describe it as an abuse | 01:25 |
| ddaa | Ok, creative reuse. | 01:26 |
| ddaa | I may get around doing https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/51130 soon | 01:26 |
| ddaa | I'm tired of delegating, and I want some fun too. | 01:26 |
| ddaa | * Pending sysadmin tasks | 01:26 |
| ddaa | Anybody? | 01:27 |
| mpool | sysadmins have been beautiful | 01:27 |
| mpool | we're getting a dedicated little machine for benchmarks | 01:27 |
| SteveA | cool | 01:27 |
| ddaa | Yeah, elmo got a haircut and a shave, he's cute like that. | 01:27 |
| ddaa | mpool: are we getting a win32 machine for running regression tests? | 01:28 |
| mpool | that would be nice too but i haven't asked for it yet | 01:28 |
| mpool | are you interested in setting it up? | 01:28 |
| mpool | hey, you could use buildbot? :-) | 01:28 |
| ddaa | Yeah buildbot is a nice tool for that. | 01:28 |
| ddaa | It's what it was designed for. | 01:29 |
| ddaa | But I'm entirely unwilling to touch a win32 machine | 01:29 |
| ddaa | j-a-meinel seems the most familiar with that part of bzr | 01:29 |
| SteveA | off topic | 01:29 |
| ddaa | right | 01:29 |
| SteveA | time is short | 01:29 |
| ddaa | * Other business | 01:30 |
| SteveA | and so is joe pesci | 01:30 |
| ddaa | SteveA: how's our new hire? | 01:30 |
| SteveA | things are progressing well | 01:30 |
| SteveA | we're scheduling further interviews with martin and with me | 01:30 |
| mpool | ddaa: we will probably hire not a bzr community advocate, but rather one person across lp and bzr | 01:31 |
| ddaa | Makes mucho sense. | 01:31 |
| mpool | so, readjusting the role and criteria for that | 01:31 |
| ddaa | but I was specifically interested in the fate of the prospective new launchpad-bazaar guy | 01:32 |
| ddaa | Anybody has other business to discuss? | 01:32 |
| SteveA | I want to confirm a couple of things | 01:33 |
| SteveA | get an idea of whether they have happened, or when they might happen | 01:33 |
| SteveA | is that okay ddaa? | 01:33 |
| SteveA | how long is the meeting left to run? | 01:33 |
| ddaa | Absolutely, I'm done with the agenda. | 01:33 |
| ddaa | We have as much time as you are confortable with. | 01:33 |
| ddaa | Nominally, 11 mins left. | 01:33 |
| SteveA | ok | 01:34 |
| SteveA | 1. bzr native | 01:34 |
| SteveA | is it in RF? | 01:34 |
| ddaa | Nah, the last bit is/was waiting for review by jamesh | 01:34 |
| SteveA | ok | 01:34 |
| SteveA | 2. python import. when can we do it? | 01:35 |
| jamesh | ddaa: I'll try to get to it soon. pending-reviews also lists your david/cscvs/bzr-native branch as not merged | 01:35 |
| ddaa | I'm not too hot about doing the python import before we have support for svn renames. | 01:35 |
| SteveA | why? | 01:35 |
| ddaa | because it's high profile, and we do not want to give the impression that bzr does not do renames | 01:36 |
| ddaa | and because it's not something we can fix post hoc without breaking compatibility | 01:37 |
| mpool | ddaa: this is the kind of thing i was getting into in my mail | 01:37 |
| mpool | about the priorities for various types of work | 01:37 |
| ddaa | well, we do do it post hoc without breaking compat | 01:37 |
| SteveA | ok | 01:37 |
| SteveA | getting python imported is an important goal for me | 01:37 |
| ddaa | but what we have already converted will have bad quality | 01:37 |
| mpool | ddaa: is "we do not want to give the impression that bzr does not do renames" really the real reason? | 01:37 |
| SteveA | so I'd like a bug opened for that, and a description in there of the things we should do first to enable that | 01:38 |
| mpool | i mean, "bzr does not convert svn renames" is a much less serious shortcoming | 01:38 |
| ddaa | jamesh: cscvs/bzr-native needs a fix, thanks for reminding me | 01:38 |
| ddaa | mpool: SteveA: if everybody is happy with running a python import without renames, I can start it today | 01:39 |
| mpool | well, is everyone happy with it? | 01:39 |
| SteveA | I don't understand the thing about renames | 01:39 |
| ddaa | Will mail you two about it. | 01:40 |
| ddaa | It's not a difficult decision to make, | 01:40 |
| SteveA | ok | 01:40 |
| jamesh | SteveA: if a file gets renamed in SVN, when it gets imported, it will look like an add and a delete, which will affect annotate info, etc | 01:40 |
| SteveA | so that is all that is holding up python | 01:41 |
| ddaa | I could find plenty of bad reasons for postponing it, but nothing really serious | 01:41 |
| jamesh | there aren't that many renames, so it probably won't be visible most of the time | 01:41 |
| SteveA | I don't think python do a lot of renaming on the mainline | 01:41 |
| SteveA | so just doit | 01:41 |
| mpool | i agree | 01:41 |
| ddaa | okay | 01:41 |
| ddaa | ACTION: ddaa to import python | 01:42 |
| SteveA | error reporting | 01:42 |
| SteveA | 3. error reporting | 01:42 |
| SteveA | (from buildbot) is this a problem at present? | 01:42 |
| ddaa | yes | 01:43 |
| ddaa | I just do not know how to get buildbot to tell launchpad about errors | 01:43 |
| SteveA | what is the 1 sentence summary of the nature of the problem? | 01:43 |
| SteveA | why is it important? | 01:43 |
| SteveA | what user or admin workflow does it negatively effect? | 01:43 |
| ddaa | Because I want to do something that uses: https://sodium.ubuntu.com/~jamesh/pending-reviews/david/launchpad/importd-ng/full-diff | 01:44 |
| SteveA | um, affect | 01:44 |
| SteveA | or whichever | 01:44 |
| ddaa | Overall, the problem is that users do not see errors. | 01:44 |
| SteveA | ok | 01:45 |
| SteveA | so, user adds their upstream svn in launchpad | 01:45 |
| ddaa | And that it's hard for admin to get synthetic info, though jamesh script can help punctually | 01:45 |
| SteveA | and then nothing happens | 01:45 |
| SteveA | because there is an error | 01:45 |
| SteveA | and the user never sees that there is a problem | 01:45 |
| SteveA | is that so? | 01:45 |
| ddaa | SteveA: nothing happens because of the requirement of operator intervention | 01:45 |
| ddaa | When the operator reload roomba, the import gets tested | 01:45 |
| SteveA | what is roomba? | 01:46 |
| ddaa | and if it fails, it gets marked as "test failed" and the use does not know what failed | 01:46 |
| SteveA | please can we rename things to have less obscure names? | 01:46 |
| ddaa | SteveA: importd autotest system | 01:46 |
| mpool | I second that | 01:46 |
| SteveA | let us call it "importd autotest" | 01:46 |
| ddaa | that was thoroughly explained in the importd documentation I wrote a few months ago | 01:46 |
| SteveA | yes | 01:46 |
| mpool | would it not be possible to have buildbot write to a plain old log file, and just look through that? | 01:47 |
| ddaa | also, when an import that's syncing starts failing | 01:47 |
| SteveA | and antidisestablishmentarianism is thoroughly explained in Hobbe's tract of 1643 | 01:47 |
| SteveA | but that doesn't mean it is a good name for something | 01:47 |
| ddaa | the only way for the user to notice is to see that the branch has gone out of sync | 01:47 |
| ddaa | Sorry no way to make a one sentence summary of the issues with the import process. | 01:48 |
| SteveA | ddaa: by "that" do you mean "the thing called roomba"? | 01:48 |
| SteveA | or do you mean "the problem with error reporting" | 01:48 |
| SteveA | <ddaa> that was thoroughly explained in the importd documentation I wrote a few months ago | 01:48 |
| SteveA | beware of using pronouns on irc | 01:48 |
| ddaa | that = "an import that's syncing starts failing" | 01:48 |
| SteveA | much possibility of misunderstanding | 01:48 |
| SteveA | I see | 01:49 |
| ddaa | an import that's syncing is run by hoover BTW | 01:49 |
| SteveA | I'm sorry. I thought you were saying: | 01:49 |
| SteveA | "roomba is documented somewhere, so it is a good enough name" | 01:49 |
| mpool | can we back up for a sec | 01:49 |
| mpool | is the problem that "the system won't automatically tell users what's wrong" | 01:49 |
| mpool | or "it's too hard for david to find out what's wrong?" | 01:49 |
| ddaa | yes, but not only | 01:49 |
| mpool | or a bit of both? | 01:49 |
| ddaa | it's easy for me to find what's wrong usually, at least when the answer is easy | 01:50 |
| ddaa | the problem is that "the system does tell users that something is wrong" | 01:50 |
| ddaa | and that "the system relies on ddaa to babysit it so new user entered data turns into an import" | 01:51 |
| mpool | ok.. | 01:51 |
| mpool | and would it be enough to just tell the user broadly what happened | 01:51 |
| ddaa | The hard be for me is to collate failures to get a sense of what are the important problems. | 01:51 |
| mpool | like a one-sentence description | 01:51 |
| ddaa | Nope. | 01:51 |
| mpool | "failed because of an error while converitng", "couldn't contact server", etc | 01:51 |
| mpool | what kind of thing do you want to tell them? | 01:52 |
| mpool | actually we're running out of time | 01:52 |
| mpool | should we continue or defer it? | 01:52 |
| ddaa | Please ask me on ML | 01:52 |
| mpool | ok | 01:52 |
| mpool | steve, anything else | 01:52 |
| ddaa | that's a complicated issue and I would have to do some background research to give good answers | 01:52 |
| ddaa | Meeting closed then | 01:54 |
| ddaa | Need to take a rest break before the launchpad meeting. | 01:54 |
| mpool | sure | 01:54 |
| === jamesh [n=james@203-59-20-109.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #launchpad-meeting | ||
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