=== ddaa [n=ddaa@nor75-18-82-241-238-155.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #launchpad-meeting === jamesh [n=james@window.gnome.org] has joined #launchpad-meeting [01:00] OMG a pony! [01:01] SteveA: jamesh: lifeless: meeting about to start [01:01] once mpool finds the way === mpool [n=mbp@ozlabs.tip.net.au] has joined #launchpad-meeting [01:02] Meeting starts [01:02] All things bazaar, yadda yadda yadd [01:02] * roll call [01:02] * production status [01:02] Current focus [01:02] * Smart server [01:02] * SFTP advertising (jamesh) [01:02] * vcs-import knits (ddaa) [01:03] * supermirror branch browser [01:03] * private branches [01:03] * dyson [01:03] * empty hosted branches [01:03] Usual end [01:03] * other meeting actions [01:03] * critical bugs [01:03] * pending sysadmin tasks [01:03] * any other business [01:03] https://launchpad.canonical.com/BazaarMeetingAgenda [01:03] * Roll call [01:03] SteveA is on a pony [01:03] I'm here [01:03] hi [01:03] hi [01:03] what's the time limit on this meeting/ [01:03] ? [01:04] Normally until 11:45 [01:04] lifeless: pingus [01:04] Let's move forward. [01:04] Production status [01:05] https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/53825 [01:05] Still out there [01:05] Talked with lifeless about how to fix it and updated bug description [01:05] Would be nice for somebody to do the BzrError -> oops thing soon === ddaa looks at jamesh [01:06] jamesh will be kinda occupied for the next 2 weeks [01:06] we need to finish off the plan for doing error reporting from scripts [01:06] Okay, then I'm happy to keep on spamming launchpad-error-reports for the time being [01:06] jamesh: that can go on the agenda for next week's infra meeting [01:06] there is a spec on the wiki about some of the work that needs to be done [01:07] ddaa: lifeless is ill, gives his apologies [01:07] we should probably move on though, given that we aren't discussing details [01:07] Last time I spoke to him, he was going to a birthday party ;) [01:07] * sftp hosting advert [01:08] birthday parties can do that to you [01:08] jamesh still supposed to blog about team branches [01:08] I take it nothing will happen there in the near future unless somebody else gets to do it [01:08] I've written part of the article. Will post it to the launchpad list when I've fleshed it out [01:08] Cool [01:09] Looking forward to seeing that this week [01:09] * vcs-imports knits [01:09] Still waiting for spec review from lifeless and SteveA [01:09] * supermirror branch browser [01:10] spiv said it was focusing on that last week and should give us a delivery estimate soon, but is on leave [01:10] * private branches [01:10] I think there was no progress there [01:11] still waiting for lifeless reply on spec review [01:11] * dyson [01:11] last week's action: jamesh to talk to sabdfl to loosen DB constraint, re grass bug. [01:11] https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/53698 [01:11] I talked with him and added a comment to the bug [01:12] I also talked with Keybuk about whether there was a particular use case for recursively checking for matching tarballs [01:12] I think that's quite a useful thing to do [01:12] but maybe not by default [01:13] Is that on somebody's business for the next couple of weeks? [01:13] yep. In the grass case it probably isn't desirable, but it is for the other examples you posted [01:14] what is grass (in this context)? [01:14] mpool: a GIS package [01:14] geographical information systems [01:14] mpool: see the bug, it was just a package with weird release names [01:15] ok [01:15] that tripped a db integrity check [01:15] from "Ge" the god of the earth, and "graphical" to do with drawings. [01:15] So, it looks like nobody will be working on that in the near future. [01:16] * empty hosted branches [01:16] there's a bug in bzr about pushing to an existing directory and overwrite contents [01:16] mpool: are you tracking that? [01:16] ddaa: i'm aware of it [01:16] is this the case where we get an empty branch dir with no .bzr subdir [01:16] I had some discussion with john in the bug, but I do not have the reference handp [01:16] and bzr won't push to it? [01:17] jamesh: yes [01:17] right [01:17] do you think it's a high priority? [01:17] Yes, not critical, but pretty important. [01:18] Since it's very easy to get into a situation where you get a busted bzr branch on the sftp server [01:19] * Other meeting actions [01:19] well, this part of the agenda is out of date [01:19] mpool: you said you planned to do some nice spec braindumping [01:20] branch viewing, reviews, email subscription, and so on [01:20] ddaa: most of that time has gone into supermirror-smartserver, and the svn roundtripping thing [01:20] i'll upload the smartserver spec [01:20] Well spent time. [01:20] this is more of a continuing task for me than a particular action [01:21] ack, will drop the action reminder from the agenda [01:21] we should talk about roundtripping after the formal completion of this meeting, perhaps verbally [01:21] Time permitting, this meeting is followed by the launchpad weekly meeting [01:22] * Critical bugs [01:22] I started work on https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/37897 [01:22] Plan to fix by making importd upload and retrieve cscvs source branches on a remote sftp [01:23] That change will also enable a number of other nice things in the medium and long term [01:24] And it's needed for correctness because the failure mode described in bug 37897 has changed with importd-bzr-native and I did not think of that in advance [01:24] I had preimpl call with jamesh about that before meeting [01:24] Will abuse bzrlib's SFTPTransport [01:25] (ok the empty-directory bug is https://launchpad.net/products/bzr/+bug/30576, have marked it for 0.10) [01:25] and use that as a paramiko wrapper [01:25] bzrlib.transport.get_transport is the best thing since sliced bananas methink [01:25] I wouldn't describe it as an abuse [01:26] Ok, creative reuse. [01:26] I may get around doing https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/51130 soon [01:26] I'm tired of delegating, and I want some fun too. [01:26] * Pending sysadmin tasks [01:27] Anybody? [01:27] sysadmins have been beautiful [01:27] we're getting a dedicated little machine for benchmarks [01:27] cool [01:27] Yeah, elmo got a haircut and a shave, he's cute like that. [01:28] mpool: are we getting a win32 machine for running regression tests? [01:28] that would be nice too but i haven't asked for it yet [01:28] are you interested in setting it up? [01:28] hey, you could use buildbot? :-) [01:28] Yeah buildbot is a nice tool for that. [01:29] It's what it was designed for. [01:29] But I'm entirely unwilling to touch a win32 machine [01:29] j-a-meinel seems the most familiar with that part of bzr [01:29] off topic [01:29] right [01:29] time is short [01:30] * Other business [01:30] and so is joe pesci [01:30] SteveA: how's our new hire? [01:30] things are progressing well [01:30] we're scheduling further interviews with martin and with me [01:31] ddaa: we will probably hire not a bzr community advocate, but rather one person across lp and bzr [01:31] Makes mucho sense. [01:31] so, readjusting the role and criteria for that [01:32] but I was specifically interested in the fate of the prospective new launchpad-bazaar guy [01:32] Anybody has other business to discuss? [01:33] I want to confirm a couple of things [01:33] get an idea of whether they have happened, or when they might happen [01:33] is that okay ddaa? [01:33] how long is the meeting left to run? [01:33] Absolutely, I'm done with the agenda. [01:33] We have as much time as you are confortable with. [01:33] Nominally, 11 mins left. [01:34] ok [01:34] 1. bzr native [01:34] is it in RF? [01:34] Nah, the last bit is/was waiting for review by jamesh [01:34] ok [01:35] 2. python import. when can we do it? [01:35] ddaa: I'll try to get to it soon. pending-reviews also lists your david/cscvs/bzr-native branch as not merged [01:35] I'm not too hot about doing the python import before we have support for svn renames. [01:35] why? [01:36] because it's high profile, and we do not want to give the impression that bzr does not do renames [01:37] and because it's not something we can fix post hoc without breaking compatibility [01:37] ddaa: this is the kind of thing i was getting into in my mail [01:37] about the priorities for various types of work [01:37] well, we do do it post hoc without breaking compat [01:37] ok [01:37] getting python imported is an important goal for me [01:37] but what we have already converted will have bad quality [01:37] ddaa: is "we do not want to give the impression that bzr does not do renames" really the real reason? [01:38] so I'd like a bug opened for that, and a description in there of the things we should do first to enable that [01:38] i mean, "bzr does not convert svn renames" is a much less serious shortcoming [01:38] jamesh: cscvs/bzr-native needs a fix, thanks for reminding me [01:39] mpool: SteveA: if everybody is happy with running a python import without renames, I can start it today [01:39] well, is everyone happy with it? [01:39] I don't understand the thing about renames [01:40] Will mail you two about it. [01:40] It's not a difficult decision to make, [01:40] ok [01:40] SteveA: if a file gets renamed in SVN, when it gets imported, it will look like an add and a delete, which will affect annotate info, etc [01:41] so that is all that is holding up python [01:41] I could find plenty of bad reasons for postponing it, but nothing really serious [01:41] there aren't that many renames, so it probably won't be visible most of the time [01:41] I don't think python do a lot of renaming on the mainline [01:41] so just doit [01:41] i agree [01:41] okay [01:42] ACTION: ddaa to import python [01:42] error reporting [01:42] 3. error reporting [01:42] (from buildbot) is this a problem at present? [01:43] yes [01:43] I just do not know how to get buildbot to tell launchpad about errors [01:43] what is the 1 sentence summary of the nature of the problem? [01:43] why is it important? [01:43] what user or admin workflow does it negatively effect? [01:44] Because I want to do something that uses: https://sodium.ubuntu.com/~jamesh/pending-reviews/david/launchpad/importd-ng/full-diff [01:44] um, affect [01:44] or whichever [01:44] Overall, the problem is that users do not see errors. [01:45] ok [01:45] so, user adds their upstream svn in launchpad [01:45] And that it's hard for admin to get synthetic info, though jamesh script can help punctually [01:45] and then nothing happens [01:45] because there is an error [01:45] and the user never sees that there is a problem [01:45] is that so? [01:45] SteveA: nothing happens because of the requirement of operator intervention [01:45] When the operator reload roomba, the import gets tested [01:46] what is roomba? [01:46] and if it fails, it gets marked as "test failed" and the use does not know what failed [01:46] please can we rename things to have less obscure names? [01:46] SteveA: importd autotest system [01:46] I second that [01:46] let us call it "importd autotest" [01:46] that was thoroughly explained in the importd documentation I wrote a few months ago [01:46] yes [01:47] would it not be possible to have buildbot write to a plain old log file, and just look through that? [01:47] also, when an import that's syncing starts failing [01:47] and antidisestablishmentarianism is thoroughly explained in Hobbe's tract of 1643 [01:47] but that doesn't mean it is a good name for something [01:47] the only way for the user to notice is to see that the branch has gone out of sync [01:48] Sorry no way to make a one sentence summary of the issues with the import process. [01:48] ddaa: by "that" do you mean "the thing called roomba"? [01:48] or do you mean "the problem with error reporting" [01:48] that was thoroughly explained in the importd documentation I wrote a few months ago [01:48] beware of using pronouns on irc [01:48] that = "an import that's syncing starts failing" [01:48] much possibility of misunderstanding [01:49] I see [01:49] an import that's syncing is run by hoover BTW [01:49] I'm sorry. I thought you were saying: [01:49] "roomba is documented somewhere, so it is a good enough name" [01:49] can we back up for a sec [01:49] is the problem that "the system won't automatically tell users what's wrong" [01:49] or "it's too hard for david to find out what's wrong?" [01:49] yes, but not only [01:49] or a bit of both? [01:50] it's easy for me to find what's wrong usually, at least when the answer is easy [01:50] the problem is that "the system does tell users that something is wrong" [01:51] and that "the system relies on ddaa to babysit it so new user entered data turns into an import" [01:51] ok.. [01:51] and would it be enough to just tell the user broadly what happened [01:51] The hard be for me is to collate failures to get a sense of what are the important problems. [01:51] like a one-sentence description [01:51] Nope. [01:51] "failed because of an error while converitng", "couldn't contact server", etc [01:52] what kind of thing do you want to tell them? [01:52] actually we're running out of time [01:52] should we continue or defer it? [01:52] Please ask me on ML [01:52] ok [01:52] steve, anything else [01:52] that's a complicated issue and I would have to do some background research to give good answers [01:54] Meeting closed then [01:54] Need to take a rest break before the launchpad meeting. [01:54] sure === jamesh [n=james@203-59-20-109.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #launchpad-meeting