| HarrySprocket | Is everyone in here paid? | 12:07 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | hehe, I wish ;-) | 12:07 |
| LaserJock | most are not | 12:07 |
| bmonty | LaserJock gets paid though | 12:07 |
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| LaserJock | bmonty: what? I get paid with bug reports :-) | 12:08 |
| HarrySprocket | .I'm a ubuntu user from NZ! | 12:08 |
| sladen | HarrySprocket: nope. | 12:08 |
| bmonty | LaserJock: that is currency in MOTU-land, right? | 12:08 |
| LaserJock | HarrySprocket: you need to get ahold of an IRC op for #ubuntu to get yourself unbanned | 12:08 |
| HarrySprocket | ok | 12:08 |
| LaserJock | bmonty: sure, sure ;-) | 12:08 |
| HarrySprocket | I have some ideas for ubuntu | 12:09 |
| LaserJock | great, write a specification on the wiki detailing all the implementation plans and announce it on the ubuntu-devel mailing list | 12:09 |
| LaserJock | make sure to include background and use cases | 12:10 |
| LaserJock | HarrySprocket: pm Madpilot about your #ubuntu ban | 12:13 |
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| LaserJock | HarrySprocket: join #ubuntu-ops to talk about your ban | 12:16 |
| pitti | Kamion: test install just finished on ppc, and I hear rockin' sound \o/ | 12:17 |
| pitti | Kamion: that means, no more regressions from my side | 12:18 |
| === MarkShuttleWorth [n=sam@219-89-7-84.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| MarkShuttleWorth | Hello | 12:18 |
| MarkShuttleWorth | Are is everyone today? | 12:18 |
| pitti | MarkShuttleWorth: Hi Mark! | 12:18 |
| MarkShuttleWorth | how* | 12:18 |
| mjg59 | "sam"? | 12:18 |
| === pitti feels dapper, now that the point release CDs are great | ||
| MarkShuttleWorth | great! | 12:19 |
| Surak | sam - new zealand? | 12:19 |
| crimsun | dead give-away there. HarrySprocket. | 12:19 |
| pitti | MarkShuttleWorth: what happened to our beloved 'SABDFL'? :) | 12:20 |
| === MarkShuttleWorth is now known as HarrySprocket | ||
| sabdfl | *cough choke splutter* | 12:20 |
| HarrySprocket | Does Mark Chat in here sometimes? | 12:20 |
| crimsun | he's right there. | 12:20 |
| sabdfl | imposter | 12:20 |
| HarrySprocket | I assumed you would know it wasnt Mark | 12:21 |
| HarrySprocket | haha | 12:21 |
| sabdfl | well. *I* knew :-) | 12:21 |
| Surak | HarrySprocket, sabdfl IS Mark... | 12:21 |
| HarrySprocket | ok | 12:22 |
| HarrySprocket | good, i wasnt an imposter | 12:22 |
| sabdfl | ;-) | 12:22 |
| HarrySprocket | sabdfl, did you know ubuntu is very popular in NZ? | 12:22 |
| sabdfl | oh, that's cool - no i didn't! | 12:23 |
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| HarrySprockett | my connection is crap! | 12:26 |
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| nixternal | ubuntu devs...check it out....i am working on the Kubuntu Edgy Eft Knot releases.. see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot2/Kubuntu for an idea, however, if you all are interested in a familiar layout let myself or Corey Burger know, as these will become "Release" pages if i am correct ;) | 12:28 |
| tseng | releases = release nodes? | 12:28 |
| pitti | good night everyone! | 12:28 |
| nixternal | notes yes | 12:29 |
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| nixternal | but not the release notes that will be with the official 6.10 release of course | 12:29 |
| nixternal | those are docbook and not moin ;) | 12:29 |
| Surak | night pitti! | 12:29 |
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| FreeSourcly | Ubuntu needs to move away from linux or it will always just be knowen as a 'linux distro' | 12:46 |
| FreeSourcly | it needs too use the best of linux but start moving away now. | 12:47 |
| LaserJock | hehe, and that's bad? | 12:47 |
| FreeSourcly | yes because ' | 12:47 |
| FreeSourcly | distros come and go....... | 12:47 |
| LaserJock | that makes no sense | 12:47 |
| Fujitsu | Less than no sense. | 12:48 |
| LaserJock | yes, distros come and go, but linux doesn't | 12:48 |
| FreeSourcly | the ultimate goal should be a independant OS | 12:48 |
| === nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| LaserJock | so why would we move away from Linux | 12:48 |
| Fujitsu | Yeah, we don't really want to have our own kernel written... | 12:48 |
| === nixternal points to #ubuntu-offtopic and gives off and evil grin ;) | ||
| nixternal | s/and/an as well | 12:49 |
| nalioth | 'ray peer! | 12:50 |
| Fujitsu | ...? | 12:50 |
| nalioth | (Connection reset by peer) | 12:51 |
| Fujitsu | Ah. | 12:51 |
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| Frostnice | Hello | 12:55 |
| Frostnice | ./join #ubuntu | 12:55 |
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| Frostnice | ops sorry. | 12:55 |
| Frostnice | I found a bug. | 12:56 |
| Frostnice | When you install....ubuntu then install kubuntu-desktop... the splash sceen changes to "blue kubuntu" | 12:56 |
| Surak | Frostnice: you can take a look if someone already posted it at http://launchpad.net . If yes, perhaps you can contribute with additional information on it. | 12:56 |
| Frostnice | it should remain "brown/orange ubuntu" | 12:57 |
| Surak | should it? | 12:57 |
| Fujitsu | That's not a bug. | 12:57 |
| Frostnice | well yeah. | 12:57 |
| Frostnice | if they firstly install 'ubuntu' | 12:58 |
| Frostnice | they obviously want it as default. | 12:58 |
| Fujitsu | And it is fairly easy to change back. | 12:58 |
| Fujitsu | Frostnice, not necessarily. | 12:58 |
| Frostnice | How do you change it back? | 12:59 |
| Frostnice | I'm a n00b. | 12:59 |
| Surak | Frostnice: support questions are better handled at #ubuntu, not here. | 12:59 |
| Frostnice | Im banned | 01:00 |
| Fujitsu | That's silly of you. | 01:00 |
| Surak | You already said that before. Perhaps you were banned for a reason? | 01:01 |
| Fujitsu | Perhaps for trolling about Ubuntu moving away from Linux? | 01:01 |
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| Fujitsu | Now, move this to #ubuntu-offtopic, please. | 01:01 |
| Frostnice | Ubuntu will take out Microsoft. Mark my words and excuse my pun. | 01:02 |
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| TentonMice | What a reject. | 01:03 |
| mjg59 | Be nice. | 01:03 |
| Fujitsu | I don't think being nice is warranted in this case. | 01:03 |
| mjg59 | Well, alternatively just say nothing :) | 01:03 |
| LaserJock | well, it wasn't anything terrible | 01:03 |
| zul | it wasnt like the world was coming to an end, just ignore the trolls | 01:04 |
| crimsun | TentonMice: please try to keep discussion on-topic for development. | 01:04 |
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| zul | hi | 03:06 |
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| bddebian | Howdy | 04:18 |
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| nalioth | bddebian: where you been hiding? | 04:20 |
| bddebian | Hi nalioth | 04:21 |
| bddebian | Hiding? | 04:21 |
| nalioth | haven't see you in a while | 04:21 |
| bddebian | I'm always here making the core-devs lives miserable :-) | 04:22 |
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| MasterMatt | I have to say 'ubuntu easy' is the shit man! | 05:27 |
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| MasterMatt | hello:) | 05:45 |
| Hobbsee | heya MasterMatt | 05:46 |
| MasterMatt | How you doin? | 05:46 |
| MasterMatt | Have you tried 'easy ubuntu'? | 05:46 |
| MasterMatt | it's grand. | 05:46 |
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| jdub | ha ha | 06:59 |
| jdub | "not defined as the opposite as something else" | 06:59 |
| jdub | "how about non-opensource?" | 06:59 |
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| evand_ | that just rolls off the tongue | 07:02 |
| === evand_ is now known as evand | ||
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| Keybuk | jdub: surely commercial/proprietary is simply the absence of open source? | 07:23 |
| Keybuk | the opposite would be some kind of viral code that explicitly forces you to not release any source code sharing the same system? :) | 07:24 |
| jdub | Keybuk: ;-) | 07:24 |
| jdub | Keybuk: noticed that launchd is now available under ASL2? | 07:25 |
| Keybuk | no, I hadn't looked | 07:25 |
| jdub | oh. my. god. | 07:25 |
| jdub | no. fucking. way. | 07:26 |
| jdub | their collaboration server is built on twisted | 07:26 |
| jsgotangco | interesting | 07:27 |
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| sivang | jdub: what's launchd ? | 07:40 |
| Burgundavia | sivang: apple replacement to sysvinit | 07:41 |
| sivang | Burgundavia: ah, I see | 07:41 |
| Burgundavia | sivang: as well as cron, at, etc | 07:41 |
| sivang | Burgundavia: ah, so it has all of those tools functionality ? | 07:42 |
| Burgundavia | sivang: yes, it is quite cool but sadly APSL licensed | 07:43 |
| Burgundavia | I think the plan is to grow Keybuk's replacement-init into something similar to it and SMF, but only GPL licensed, so distros like Suse and Fedora can use it | 07:43 |
| Keybuk | pretty much, yup | 07:44 |
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| jdub | Burgundavia: did you read above? | 07:46 |
| Burgundavia | jdub: sorry, I just joined | 07:46 |
| jdub | Burgundavia: ASL2 | 07:46 |
| whiprush | jdub: when I read about launchd I told myself "jdub going to dig this in 3...2...1..." | 07:46 |
| Burgundavia | launchd is ASL2? | 07:46 |
| jdub | whiprush: not wildly so | 07:47 |
| jdub | i'm more interested in the calendar server, which is built on twisted | 07:47 |
| whiprush | last I recall you digged the solaris thing better | 07:47 |
| whiprush | twisted? no shit? | 07:47 |
| whiprush | that's, odd ... | 07:47 |
| jsgotangco | why so? | 07:51 |
| whiprush | I typically don't equate apple with using things they didn't invent | 07:54 |
| ajmitch | they use a lot of stuff like that | 07:54 |
| jsgotangco | well they seem to have sensible developers who don't want to reinvent things that already work nicely and just complement their ideas on it | 07:55 |
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| sivang | I suppose ASL2 is some sort of GPL compatible license so that's why the fuss about it ? | 07:59 |
| === whiprush is paging through 15 channels of the same conversation trying to piece it all together. | ||
| jsgotangco | haha yahhh | 08:00 |
| jsgotangco | irc mash ups would be more chaotic | 08:00 |
| ajmitch | sivang: because it's a free license, not considered gpl-compatible | 08:00 |
| ajmitch | according to the fsf, anyway | 08:01 |
| sivang | ajmitch: I see, meaning we cannot do free use of it in Ubuntu? | 08:01 |
| ajmitch | sivang: it's a free software license, so it can be used | 08:01 |
| ajmitch | not everything has to be GPL-compatible | 08:01 |
| whiprush | has anyone checked out this launchd thing in detail at all? | 08:02 |
| jsgotangco | it says ASL2 is incompatible with GPL | 08:04 |
| jsgotangco | but nonetheless, a free software license | 08:04 |
| jsgotangco | sivang: ^^ | 08:04 |
| sivang | jsgotangco: I see | 08:04 |
| jsgotangco | "it has certain patent termination cases that the GPL does not require" | 08:05 |
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| Keybuk | whiprush: yes, extensively | 08:06 |
| Keybuk | whiprush: what would you like to know about it? | 08:06 |
| whiprush | Keybuk: opinion? iirc from reading the summary the problem was the licensing. | 08:07 |
| whiprush | just wondering if this new apache 2.0 license thing is interesting. | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | good points: | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | - simple design | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | - has the cron and inetd replacement out of the box | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | - some mythical "start services only when required" code | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | bad points: | 08:07 |
| Keybuk | - no dependency/event graph; expects apache's init script to spin until /usr is mounted, then spin until the network is up, etc. | 08:08 |
| Keybuk | - xml configuration | 08:08 |
| Lathiat_ | mm xml | 08:08 |
| Keybuk | - probably would be considered a net loss of functionality | 08:08 |
| whiprush | Keybuk: so overall, thumbs down? | 08:10 |
| jdub | whiprush: when Keybuk thinks he can do better, definitely thumbs down ;-) | 08:11 |
| whiprush | haha | 08:11 |
| whiprush | the sun stuff looks so interesting, pity about the license. | 08:11 |
| jdub | whiprush: what's wrong with the license? | 08:11 |
| whiprush | afaik doesn't the cddl make it out of the running for putting it in ubuntu? | 08:12 |
| jdub | not even remotely | 08:12 |
| whiprush | oh really? | 08:12 |
| jdub | CDDL is a generalised MPL | 08:12 |
| jdub | a very good license | 08:12 |
| === whiprush recalls reading a comparison of init things ruling out the smf stuff | ||
| === whiprush goes to check | ||
| jdub | it also happens to be as incompatible with the GPL as the MPL is | 08:13 |
| jdub | but for a daemon that runs stuff... | 08:13 |
| === whiprush nods | ||
| whiprush | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit | 08:14 |
| whiprush | "The first two of these suffer from inescapable licence problems, which is relatively unfortunate as both have features that are somewhat appealing though neither quite fix our problems." | 08:14 |
| whiprush | is the page out of date or ... ? | 08:15 |
| Burgundavia | whiprush: it is out of date as for this morning | 08:16 |
| jdub | it's just wrong | 08:16 |
| jdub | people don't grok CDDL | 08:16 |
| === whiprush just walks away from the argument. | ||
| Burgundavia | jdub: it seems sane to work on an init system across many distros, including debian | 08:16 |
| Burgundavia | debian has rejected the cddl | 08:16 |
| jdub | no they haven't | 08:16 |
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| Keybuk | whiprush: actually, I liked launchd and thought it was be good for "a base to extend | 08:26 |
| Keybuk | but the licence was (and probably still is) against that | 08:27 |
| jdub | Keybuk: ASL@? | 08:28 |
| jdub | why so? | 08:28 |
| Keybuk | it isn't GPL compatible, no? | 08:29 |
| Keybuk | ASL2 rings vague debian-legal alarm bells in the back of my head | 08:29 |
| whiprush | Keybuk: fading away into sleep, but will log the rest of the conversation. :D | 08:29 |
| jdub | Keybuk: why would it need to be GPL compat? | 08:29 |
| Burgundavia | Keybuk: its GPL compatibility is disputed | 08:30 |
| Keybuk | jdub: otherwise many people get discouraged from adoption | 08:30 |
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| whiprush | Keybuk: I'm sure it beats working on network-manager. :p | 08:30 |
| whiprush | See, that was a joke ... | 08:30 |
| Keybuk | jdub: e.g. depending on your interpretation of the GPL wrt dynamic linking; it may not be legal to write a GNOME frontend to launchd | 08:32 |
| Keybuk | (assuming you have to C&P paste code from other GNOME apps, which ime is mandatory) | 08:32 |
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| jdub | Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper? | 08:39 |
| jdub | Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates? | 08:40 |
| jdub | Keybuk: (i wouldn't have though think linking would be required to create a frontend for launchd) | 08:40 |
| Keybuk | dunno, I think we have; ask pitti | 08:40 |
| Keybuk | jdub: you'd need at least some of the launchd config file interpretation code | 08:41 |
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| jdub | oh | 08:42 |
| jdub | wow | 08:42 |
| jdub | timing | 08:42 |
| jdub | pitti: hi! | 08:42 |
| jdub | 16:39 < jdub> Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper? | 08:42 |
| jdub | 16:40 < jdub> Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates? | 08:42 |
| jdub | 08:42 | |
| jdub | ^ pitti | 08:42 |
| pitti | Good morning | 08:44 |
| pitti | jdub: pants off! | 08:45 |
| pitti | jdub: just one or two, but negligible | 08:45 |
| pitti | jdub: as long as the new version is reasonably tested, I'm fine with that | 08:45 |
| pitti | jdub: just a microversion update? | 08:46 |
| pitti | jdub: the changelog should be checked for sanity, and if possible, the diff, too | 08:46 |
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| jdub | pitti: ok, i'll backport and test, and let you know | 08:49 |
| jdub | pitti: thanks! | 08:49 |
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| pitti | jdub: cool! | 08:50 |
| crimsun | I looked at trac for dapper-security and found it was a bit much, but that was a while ago | 08:57 |
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| dholbach | good morning | 09:02 |
| === Keybuk hugs dholbach | ||
| dholbach | hey Keybuk :) | 09:03 |
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| dholbach | I wonder if seb128 slept at all | 09:04 |
| dholbach | edgy-changes suggests otherwise | 09:04 |
| dholbach | Keybuk: thanks for all the syncs | 09:05 |
| pitti | Keybuk: thanks for the syncs; strange, I did not get accepted mails for most of them (just for bzr) | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | pitti: I'm still doing them | 09:08 |
| Keybuk | the process is roughly | 09:08 |
| Keybuk | for SYNC in LIST; do sync-source $SYNC; done ; upload all syncs | 09:08 |
| Keybuk | I'm still going through the list | 09:08 |
| Toadstool | Keybuk: sorry about the mini-dinstall sync by the way, I must have been very sleepy not to notice the NMU is misversionned... :/ | 09:11 |
| Keybuk | \o/ only bddebian's left now | 09:12 |
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| Burgundavia | Keybuk: how much interest have you had from other distros for init-ng-Keybukstyle? | 09:15 |
| Keybuk | Burgundavia: much | 09:16 |
| Burgundavia | Keybuk: this launchd stuff change the landscape much? | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | Burgundavia: everyone I've explained it to in detail has made vague "waaant" noises | 09:16 |
| Burgundavia | right | 09:16 |
| Burgundavia | any actual code from anybody else? | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | Burgundavia: not really; upstart is now just as feature complete as launchd, so the theory of using that as a base wouldn't gain anything ... and I still think it has licence problems | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | nah, people are waiting for usto prove it works first | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | plus I've not published the code anyway | 09:17 |
| tepsipakki | seems that Enomalism isn't in edgy yet ;) http://enomalism.com/Wiki.wiki+M5902e6c2d07.0.html (a web-interface for Xen) | 09:18 |
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| pitti | seb128! | 09:22 |
| === pitti hugs the Great Gnominator | ||
| mdke | cool name | 09:22 |
| seb128 | hey pitti :) | 09:24 |
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| dholbach | ogra: new gnome-powermanager and new gnome-screensaver | 09:29 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: is that you that do NEW processing nowadays? evolution-data-server has new binaries: libecal1.2-7 and libedata-cal1.2-6 (sonames change), accepting them so would be welcome (no hurry, just pointing what changed for it) | 09:32 |
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| Keybuk | seb128: I do some of it, yes | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | gonna do some in a few minutes | 09:37 |
| pitti | hi Hobbsee | 09:39 |
| Hobbsee | hey pitti | 09:41 |
| ogra | Keybuk, in a udev script, %k is the device name, are there easy variables for devicetype (cdrom/harddisc/camera) and for the label ? or do i need hal for that ? | 09:47 |
| ogra | dholbach, thanks for notifying :) | 09:47 |
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| Keybuk | ogra: %k is the kernel name, not necessarily the name udev willg ive for the device | 09:50 |
| Keybuk | ogra: define "device type", define "label" | 09:50 |
| ogra | ah, ok | 09:50 |
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| ogra | ype as i said above for a block device i want to know if its a cdrom or a harddisk first place ... | 09:50 |
| Keybuk | assuming you mean block devices, you can use %env{ID_TYPE} and %env{ID_FS_UUID} etc. | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | ogra: you missed the word "block device" :p | 09:51 |
| ogra | ah, cool | 09:51 |
| ogra | yes, sorry :) | 09:51 |
| ogra | its early :) | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | udevinfo -qall is your friend | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | e.g. udevinfo -qall -n sda1 | 09:51 |
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| ogra | hmm, intresting ... | 09:52 |
| ogra | in the thin client it doesnt see the label | 09:53 |
| ogra | hmm, and my camera is a floppy according to ID_TYPE :) | 09:54 |
| Hobbsee | Keybuk: thanks for the masses of syncs/removals :) | 09:59 |
| === Hobbsee notes that her inbox is semi-flooded again. i only cleared that out a few hours ago! :P | ||
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| ogra | Keybuk, i noticed that the fuse module isnt autoloaded if i want to access /dev/fuse ... do i need an udev script here as well ? | 10:08 |
| Keybuk | fuse is one of the tricky ones, like ppp, etc. | 10:08 |
| Keybuk | it's not associated with any device, so it won't be automatically loaded | 10:09 |
| ogra | well, i'll need it loaded for ltspfs | 10:09 |
| Keybuk | the easiest way is just modprobe -Qb fuse | 10:09 |
| ogra | and the fuse utils are all acessing /dev/fuse | 10:09 |
| ogra | i.e. fusermount | 10:09 |
| ogra | so i'd assume we can associate t with that device ... | 10:10 |
| Keybuk | another way would be to put /dev/fuse in /lib/udev/devices | 10:10 |
| Keybuk | device == physical device, sorry | 10:10 |
| ogra | and link it to /dev ? | 10:10 |
| Keybuk | things in /lib/udev/devices are copied to /dev by the udev init script | 10:11 |
| ogra | hmm, that would mean i have it permanently loaded | 10:11 |
| Keybuk | no, it'd be loaded when the device was first touched | 10:12 |
| ogra | loading the module already creates it dynamically in /dev | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | one can mknod anything without loading the module | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | right | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | the choice is | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | 1) loading the module with modprobe so the device is created | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | 2) having the device already around, so the module is loaded by kmod | 10:12 |
| ogra | hmm ... | 10:12 |
| ogra | 1) is a problem because i'd need root access while a user driven script runs ... | 10:13 |
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| Keybuk | right, we have the same problem with ppp | 10:13 |
| ogra | so the ltspfs postinst would have to mknod /lib/udev/devices/fuse ... ok | 10:13 |
| Keybuk | no | 10:14 |
| ogra | but ? | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | the ltspfs package could just ship that | 10:14 |
| ogra | ah | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | or, tbh, I'd probably just ship it in the udev package | 10:14 |
| ogra | no need to mknod ? | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | what's the major/minor ? | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | well, it does the mknod in debian/rules | 10:14 |
| ogra | crw-rw---- 1 root fuse 10, 229 2006-08-07 19:18 /dev/fuse | 10:14 |
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| ogra | (the group is important) | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | the group is not possible, I'm afraid | 10:15 |
| ogra | hmm | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | if it's shipped in a package, it'll have to be root:root until udev's init script runs | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | it may be that #1 is your only solution then | 10:15 |
| ogra | hmm | 10:16 |
| ogra | echo "fuse" >> /etc/modules | 10:16 |
| ogra | :P | 10:16 |
| Keybuk | yup | 10:16 |
| ogra | ugly | 10:16 |
| ogra | but if there is no way around ... *shrug* | 10:17 |
| Keybuk | it's in a class of modules we haven't got a perfect solution for yet | 10:18 |
| Keybuk | drivers without hardware | 10:18 |
| ogra | yep | 10:18 |
| Keybuk | you want it loaded if you want it | 10:19 |
| Keybuk | usually it just makes sense to load them with modprobe when necessary | 10:19 |
| Keybuk | but when the device needs to be used by !root, that's a problem | 10:19 |
| Keybuk | we vaguely chatted once about making modprobe setuid root, and then having it decide whether the real user could load that module or not | 10:20 |
| ogra | well, fuse is exactly for userspace only, as the name implies :) | 10:20 |
| Keybuk | but I suspect that's the kind of thing that makes pitti soil his underwear | 10:20 |
| ogra | hehe | 10:20 |
| ogra | i'm fine for now with /etc/modules its just sad we cant do it dynamically ... | 10:20 |
| ogra | and i think in hotplug times it was loaded dynamically, but i might be wrong | 10:21 |
| pitti | Keybuk: are there more examples where calling modprobe would make sense (which are not just bugs)? | 10:21 |
| ogra | the fuse utils package used to ship a script | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | pitti: ppp | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | pitti: loop | 10:21 |
| ogra | pitti, pppoe ? | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | pitti: tun | 10:22 |
| pitti | Keybuk: ok, ppp makes sense, but loop? | 10:22 |
| Keybuk | pitti: mount should be able to "modprobe loop" if it's in fstab and user | 10:22 |
| ogra | loop is autoloaded | 10:22 |
| pitti | users can't setup loop devices without root power anyway | 10:22 |
| Keybuk | but can't | 10:22 |
| pitti | Keybuk: ah, ok | 10:22 |
| Keybuk | ogra: only because we have a static device in /dev copied in by init | 10:22 |
| ogra | if i mount -o loop i have no complaints here | 10:22 |
| ogra | aha | 10:22 |
| ogra | ! | 10:22 |
| pitti | is there any way to conditionally build a target in Makefile.am based on a config.h variable? (i. e. the presence/absence of a library detected by configure) | 10:23 |
| Keybuk | if VARIABLE | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | ... | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | endif | 10:24 |
| pitti | oh, wow, magic :) | 10:24 |
| pitti | Keybuk: thanks | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | (must be defined in configure.ac by AM_CONDITIONAL | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | usually you do something like AM_CONDITIONAL(VARIABLE, test x$ac_variable = xtrue) or something | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | there's an example in the info page | 10:25 |
| === ogra wonders why debian removed the link from /etc/mtab to /proc/mounts in ltsp clients ... | ||
| pitti | Keybuk: ah, http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/automake/automake_106.html | 10:27 |
| ogra | and i wonder why i dont get my mounts right *sigh* | 10:27 |
| ogra | the fact that dash doesnt know about $UID is rather impressing :) | 10:32 |
| pitti | ogra: id -un ? | 10:33 |
| ogra | i've put UID=$(id -u) at the top, yes :) | 10:33 |
| ogra | but still, thats a variable i'd have expected in any shell :) | 10:34 |
| pitti | ogra: better not rely on it :) | 10:34 |
| ogra | yeah, seems like | 10:34 |
| pitti | ogra: otherwise I could do nasty things with export UID=0 or so :) | 10:34 |
| StevenK | pitti: export UID=-1 | 10:34 |
| ogra | oh, i dont use it for anything critical ... just for a directory name | 10:34 |
| pitti | StevenK: what's -1, super-root? :) | 10:35 |
| ogra | reverse root :) | 10:35 |
| StevenK | pitti: UID's are unsigned, it'd be fun watching stuff blow up. | 10:35 |
| ogra | toor :) | 10:35 |
| pitti | StevenK: ah, might wrap to nobody then (65535?) | 10:35 |
| StevenK | Hey, that's a point. | 10:36 |
| pitti | well, that would be -2 | 10:36 |
| StevenK | steven@liquified:~% id -- -2 | 10:36 |
| StevenK | id: -2: No such user | 10:36 |
| Keybuk | ogra: mtab and mounts aren't equivalent | 10:37 |
| ogra | Keybuk, in ltsp-clients they are (read only filesystem, i need to know what the kernel thinks is mounted) | 10:37 |
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| Keybuk | ogra: why not just use /proc/mounts directly then? | 10:38 |
| ogra | Keybuk, because apps look in mtab ... | 10:38 |
| ogra | its fine with the link | 10:38 |
| Keybuk | ok | 10:38 |
| ogra | debian just removed it and made mtab a static readonly file | 10:38 |
| Keybuk | mounts is missing mount options though, no? | 10:38 |
| ogra | which doesnt help much for local device support :) | 10:38 |
| Keybuk | http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/000095399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_05_03 | 10:39 |
| Keybuk | ^ doesn't specify UID as a shell-set parameter | 10:39 |
| Keybuk | so $UID is a bashism | 10:39 |
| StevenK | Doesn't help that zsh also seems to have it. | 10:39 |
| ogra | well, fstab is a writeable file ... and devices i plug in use it ... so i have the options there | 10:39 |
| ogra | and i call mount directly as mount -o sync ... anyway ... | 10:40 |
| ogra | no extra options needed :) | 10:40 |
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| jono | hi all | 10:45 |
| sabdfl | hey jono | 10:46 |
| jono | heya sabdfl | 10:46 |
| jono | sabdfl, hows things this morning? | 10:46 |
| sabdfl | excellent, am en route to cambridge for a bit of supercomputer action | 10:46 |
| sabdfl | always makes for a fun day | 10:46 |
| jono | :) | 10:46 |
| jsgotangco | nice | 10:47 |
| StevenK | sabdfl: Ubuntu CDs packed? :-P | 10:47 |
| Hobbsee | hi sabdfl | 10:47 |
| sabdfl | hi StevenK, Hobbsee | 10:47 |
| === StevenK waves. | ||
| ajmitch | sounds like a fun day | 10:47 |
| pitti | sabdfl: woohoo, enjoy the big irons :) | 10:47 |
| Hobbsee | StevenK: ah. thanks for reminding me what i was going to grab some of from pia. | 10:47 |
| ajmitch | Hobbsee: ran out already? | 10:47 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: only had one :P | 10:47 |
| === StevenK has none, until his shipment arrives. | ||
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| Hobbsee | grr. that's three hard lockups in two days, and i've got absolutely no idea why. *grumble* | 10:55 |
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| Treenaks | Hobbsee: nvidia/ati drivers? | 10:55 |
| StevenK | Hobbsee: Heat? | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | Treenaks: neither. plain intel card | 10:56 |
| StevenK | Hobbsee: I've pointed out the fan in those laptops are worthless. | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | true | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | it doesnt seem that hot | 10:56 |
| StevenK | The outside case doesn't. | 10:57 |
| TheMuso | Hobbsee: Have you ever thought to check the CPU temperature? | 10:57 |
| Hobbsee | TheMuso: a long time ago. should check that again | 10:57 |
| StevenK | That's no indication that the CPU isn't molten. | 10:57 |
| ajmitch | Hobbsee: you're still using that horribly broken fan? | 10:57 |
| jono | hey Gman | 10:57 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: yeah | 10:58 |
| Gman | hey jono | 10:58 |
| Gman | how goes it? | 10:58 |
| jono | Gman, good thanks, you? | 10:58 |
| StevenK | Hobbsee: I suspect that the fan has gotten a little worse. | 10:58 |
| Gman | jono, not bad - other than living in a leaky home :( | 10:59 |
| Hobbsee | StevenK: quite possibly | 10:59 |
| ajmitch | I suspect that the only way it can get worse than what it is, is to stop altogether | 10:59 |
| StevenK | ajmitch: It may be spinning a little slower and expelling less heat. | 10:59 |
| jono | Gman, ugh :( | 10:59 |
| === mdke kicks Planet Gnome | ||
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| kagou | hi | 11:22 |
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| iwj | mvo: re 19834: Yes, fine. | 11:35 |
| mvo | iwj: thanks | 11:36 |
| iwj | I see you closed it already. | 11:37 |
| mvo | iwj: yes, my reasoning was that it can always be reopened (and that I didn't want to forget about it) | 11:41 |
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| iwj | :-) | 11:42 |
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| jdub | elmo, Znarl, Spads: ping | 12:05 |
| Znarl | jdub : Pong? | 12:06 |
| jdub | Znarl: am i going to get {people,humboldt}.ubuntu.com love back at any point? | 12:07 |
| elmo | jdub: people, not any time in the immediate future. humboldt hasn't been changed | 12:10 |
| elmo | jdub: (people still requires chinstrap -> employees only - that may/should be fixed, but it's not in the short term TODO) | 12:13 |
| jdub | elmo: could planet be moved to another machine maybe? | 12:14 |
| jdub | elmo: perhaps you could remove the {Packages,Sources}* files from my public_html/* on people? i don't want people thinking those are maintained if i can't maintain them | 12:16 |
| mdke | jdub: got a moment? | 12:22 |
| jdub | sure | 12:23 |
| mdke | cool | 12:23 |
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| elmo | jdub: planet isn't on people? | 12:29 |
| jdub | elmo: planet is on humboldt | 12:30 |
| elmo | jdub: yes. so why do you want it moved? | 12:30 |
| jdub | elmo: 'cos i don't have access, and i thought non-employees couldn't get to humboldt | 12:34 |
| elmo | jdub: your account hasn't been locked on humboldt, it's not part of the LAN and doesn't require chinstrap access to reach it | 12:34 |
| elmo | jdub: that's what I meant by "humboldt hasn't been changed" - sorry if I wasn't clear | 12:34 |
| jdub | elmo: i'm locked out though :) | 12:35 |
| jdub | no ssh key love and no password | 12:35 |
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| janimo | Gloubiboulga: hi | 12:36 |
| elmo | jdub: I can't even see you trying to login - are you sure you're not still trying to proxy through chinstrap? | 12:36 |
| Gloubiboulga | janimo, hello | 12:37 |
| elmo | jdub: (and it might be better to take this to #canonical-sysadmin) | 12:37 |
| jdub | elmo: ok, sorted, i hadn't killed the chinstrap config on this machine | 12:38 |
| jdub | thanks | 12:38 |
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| janimo | mvo: hi I talked to glatzor and he said the remaining gtkhtml use in g-a-i can be replaced with a simpler html parser (he said beautiful-soup) | 12:54 |
| janimo | would you agree to getting this last I think gnome dependency out, and solve the gconf one as with update-manager? | 12:55 |
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| mvo | janimo: yes, that sounds good. I need to check the gtkhtml solution though first | 12:59 |
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| janimo | mvo: sure, thanks, let's see what glatzor has to say, he said he had to check this out it more detail first | 01:05 |
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| ogra | seb128, i have a small problem, i have a script that adds a link to the desktop ... th elink doesnt appear on the users desktop, but if i open a nautilus window i see it appearing/vanishing dynamically | 01:34 |
| ogra | any idea why the desktop itself isnt updated ? | 01:35 |
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| jdub | mdz: ping | 01:54 |
| ogra | pitti, how does g-v-m know there was a CD inserted ? seem there is no kernel event or something i could catch with udev | 02:02 |
| ogra | is that hal ? | 02:02 |
| mjr | I think that's hal's business, yes | 02:02 |
| ogra | damned | 02:03 |
| ogra | where does hal get the event then ? | 02:03 |
| ogra | i need a trigger that doesnt involve installing half of the desktop innings into the thin client ... | 02:04 |
| janimo | ogra, udevmonitor | 02:04 |
| janimo | if you don;t want hal | 02:04 |
| ogra | janimo, YAY, thanks ! | 02:04 |
| janimo | hal gets it from udev | 02:04 |
| janimo | ogra: welcome :) | 02:05 |
| ogra | hmm, no events for CDRoms ... | 02:05 |
| ogra | must get it somewhere else | 02:06 |
| janimo | ogra: indeed, only lshal -m show cdrom events... | 02:09 |
| ogra | yep | 02:09 |
| ogra | but where does it get them ? | 02:09 |
| janimo | dunno | 02:09 |
| ogra | hmm, intresting ... NM spills an entry into syslog for *every* device thats added or removed | 02:10 |
| ogra | how noisy | 02:11 |
| pitti | ogra: yes, hal polls for CDs periodically | 02:14 |
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| pitti | ogra: there's no other possibility than polling unfortunately | 02:15 |
| ogra | what exactly does it poll ? | 02:15 |
| ogra | i'm fine adding a "while true; do ... ; done" script for the client ... but adding the complete hal will kill my memory | 02:16 |
| pitti | ogra: check hald/linux2/addons/addon-storage.c | 02:16 |
| pitti | ogra: that's the backend responsible for cd polling | 02:16 |
| ogra | thanks ! | 02:16 |
| ogra | thats what i'm looking for | 02:16 |
| pitti | ogra: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/cdcaps.py | 02:17 |
| pitti | ogra: essentially, you need to do fcntl.ioctl(f, CDROM.CDROM_DISC_STATUS, 0) periodically | 02:17 |
| pitti | and test the bits which indicate that a CD is present | 02:17 |
| ogra | wow, that script is sexy :) | 02:17 |
| pitti | ogra: check addon-storage.c how hal tests it | 02:18 |
| pitti | drive = ioctl (fd, CDROM_DRIVE_STATUS, CDSL_CURRENT); | 02:18 |
| pitti | CDS_DISC_OK -> there is a CD-ROM, otherwise there's not | 02:18 |
| ogra | i think i'll redo all my stuff in python looks way more elegant than the shellscripts i have :) | 02:18 |
| ogra | ok | 02:19 |
| ogra | i'll play with it a bit | 02:19 |
| pitti | ogra: heh, indeed I slowly got used to writing stuff in python right from the start | 02:19 |
| pitti | as opposed to developing complex shell scripts and rewriting them later :) | 02:19 |
| pitti | ogra: if you want shell, you can do 'perl -e' magic, though | 02:20 |
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| pitti | ogra: check powerpc's pmi for an example how to do ioctl's in combined perl/shell | 02:20 |
| ogra | well, there would have been tons of system() calls in the beginning ... if i write such scripts that poll most data from other tools i'm better off with shell | 02:20 |
| ogra | but usually while i start dropping the subshell ugliness i could as well replace it with python :) | 02:21 |
| pitti | well, OTOH you wouldn't want to spawn a perl/python interpreter *every three seconds* from a shell script | 02:21 |
| pitti | ogra: so, either a small C program or completely perl/python, I'd say | 02:21 |
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| ogra | python is it :) | 02:22 |
| pitti | ogra: and please use subprocess.{call,Popen} instead of system :) | 02:22 |
| ogra | i already started rewriting the bits on the session side ... | 02:22 |
| ogra | pitti, for testing i usually use VAR=$(ls -l) in shell :) | 02:22 |
| ogra | and usually my first iteration of a script is crowded with that | 02:23 |
| ogra | :) | 02:23 |
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| seb128 | ogra: nop, but nautilus has some notification issues that should be fixed with the update coming today | 02:28 |
| ogra | shawarma, k | 02:29 |
| ogra | err | 02:29 |
| ogra | ah, k | 02:29 |
| ogra | funnily if i touch/rm a file manually all is fine ... | 02:29 |
| pitti | G0SUB: hm, can you please commit the latest stuff into bzr? I didn't find any CLI frontend, nor any test suites in the currently pushed version | 02:36 |
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| bddebian | Howdy | 03:50 |
| bddebian | THANKS KEYBUK! | 03:50 |
| Keybuk | no worries | 03:54 |
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| bddebian | Keybuk: Do you have an opinion on squashfs? I haven't gotten any feedback on ML or IRC. | 04:08 |
| ajmitch | bddebian: mdz said upload it, livefs builds use dapper's squashfs | 04:08 |
| bddebian | I know but I'm scared :-) | 04:08 |
| Keybuk | what's the change? | 04:09 |
| bddebian | ajmitch: Hi BTW :-) | 04:09 |
| bddebian | Keybuk: Build-dep linux-headers-2.6.17-5 instead of 2.6.17-1-all | 04:09 |
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| Keybuk | seems fair | 04:12 |
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| === bddebian crosses his fingers and uploads | ||
| === Hobbsee wonders why a whole lot of stuff is FTBFS on the buildds. | ||
| Hobbsee | ah. | 04:20 |
| Hobbsee | Errors were encountered while processing: | 04:20 |
| Hobbsee | /home/buildd/build-235140-269468/chroot-autobuild/var/cache/apt/archives/xinit_1.0.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb | 04:20 |
| ajmitch | yes, he uploaded -0ubuntu2 | 04:20 |
| StevenK | Because X is borked? | 04:21 |
| Hobbsee | dpkg: error processing /home/buildd/build-235140-269468/chroot-autobuild/var/cache/apt/archives/xinit_1.0.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb (--unpack): | 04:21 |
| Hobbsee | trying to overwrite `/usr/share/man/man5/Xsession.5.gz', which is also in package x11-common | 04:21 |
| Hobbsee | ah | 04:21 |
| ogra | fixed two uploads ago | 04:21 |
| Hobbsee | right | 04:21 |
| StevenK | So now we just wait for the buildds to be fixed and beg infinity for a mass give-back? | 04:22 |
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| Micksa | hi!!! | 04:36 |
| Micksa | I have an excuse to be here :) | 04:36 |
| Micksa | How do I create the initramfs for casper from its sources? | 04:37 |
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| Micksa | aw, someone tell me | 04:44 |
| Micksa | this is torture | 04:44 |
| Micksa | I'm reading shell scripts | 04:44 |
| mdke | Micksa: you might have more luck asking in the support channel, I suppose, or searching the documentation wiki, if no one answers in here | 04:44 |
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| Riddell | jono: congrats | 05:07 |
| jono | cheers Riddell :) | 05:07 |
| Riddell | (since it seems to be public now) | 05:07 |
| ajmitch | jono: so you're our new master? | 05:07 |
| jono | ajmitch, hah! :) | 05:08 |
| jono | yeah, MArk was holding off for an announcement | 05:08 |
| jono | he picked the worst possible picture too :) | 05:08 |
| ajmitch | I just saw it pop up on mugshot :) | 05:08 |
| zul | jono: so i can bug you now heh heh.. | 05:08 |
| pitti | hey jono, welcome! | 05:08 |
| mdke | welcome jono | 05:08 |
| jono | sure, feel free to bug me guys :) | 05:08 |
| jono | thanks pitti mdke :) | 05:09 |
| tseng | wait what? | 05:09 |
| ajmitch | tseng: see planet ubuntu | 05:09 |
| tseng | did jono get that community leader thing | 05:09 |
| ajmitch | he did | 05:09 |
| tseng | man | 05:10 |
| tseng | he'll be all up in my face now | 05:10 |
| jono | heh | 05:10 |
| === jono thwacks tseng :P | ||
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| jdub | jono: :-) | 05:13 |
| Burgwork | morning jdub, jono | 05:13 |
| jono | hey Burgwork | 05:13 |
| jono | jdub, :) | 05:13 |
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| jdub | jono: walking out the door, i was a bit disappointed that we'd missed the opportunity to work together :) | 05:16 |
| jono | jdub, yeah, I wish we could have worked together too :) | 05:16 |
| jono | jdub, maybe one day :) | 05:17 |
| Burgwork | jono, are you the new community manager for Canonical? | 05:18 |
| jdub | jono: at least paul won't be stuck with the usual "jono's boss" crap anymore | 05:18 |
| jdub | jono: oh - perfect | 05:18 |
| jdub | jono: sabdfl == "jono's boss" | 05:18 |
| jono | Burgwork, yeah | 05:18 |
| jono | jdub, hehe | 05:18 |
| jdub | jono: or do you report to jane? | 05:18 |
| Burgwork | jono, congrats! you coming to LWE SF? | 05:18 |
| jono | jdub, no, to Mark | 05:18 |
| jdub | ah well, sure you'll fix that soon enough | 05:19 |
| jono | Burgwork, thanks, I wish I could, but no :( | 05:19 |
| jono | jdub, :) | 05:19 |
| jdub | in the mean time, we can call him "jono's boss" | 05:19 |
| jono | hehe | 05:19 |
| jono | I smell revenge here.. | 05:19 |
| jdub | gotta make up for paul's pain somehow | 05:19 |
| jdub | circle of life and all | 05:19 |
| jono | heh, but Paul is going to be a GNOME god afte rGUADEC2007 | 05:20 |
| jono | its gonna be awesome :) | 05:20 |
| jdub | yeah, b'ham is going to rock | 05:21 |
| jono | no beach party though :( | 05:21 |
| jono | skinny dipping in the birmingham canal would be painful | 05:22 |
| mjg59 | But real beer | 05:22 |
| jdub | *riowr* | 05:23 |
| thom | jono: hire a hall and ship in sand | 05:23 |
| thom | sorted. | 05:23 |
| jono | thom, :P | 05:23 |
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| tseng | jono: technical people are notably left out of your enumeration of community areas | 05:37 |
| jono | tseng, thats only one aspect of what I will be doing | 05:38 |
| jono | tseng, of course my work will include technical teams :) | 05:38 |
| tseng | ok, I don't much care personally | 05:38 |
| jono | tseng, and if you have suggestions for ways in which to improve the community with regards to technical teams, let me know :) | 05:39 |
| tseng | but its a key point of entry | 05:39 |
| jono | sure :) | 05:39 |
| Burgwork | jono, as part of your new job, I would like you to look at HelpingUbuntu, with an eye towards moving it to /community/participate on the website. I need some good critical feedback on it | 05:40 |
| tseng | I am a pretty bad person to ask about joining ubuntu seeing as I've been here since before there was a name | 05:40 |
| jono | Burgwork, sure :) | 05:40 |
| === tseng delegates to recent motu converts | ||
| jono | Burgwork, could you ping me in a few weeks about it when I am up and running? | 05:41 |
| jono | tseng, sure, but its not just about joining the community, but how the community works :) | 05:41 |
| Burgwork | jono, sure, but I was trying to push myself to finish it and get it live | 05:41 |
| zul | tseng: you're special :) | 05:41 |
| tseng | zul: hah not really. | 05:41 |
| jono | Burgwork, ok, I will have a look tomorrow if that is cool - need to finish up some stuff right now | 05:41 |
| jono | Burgwork, could you mail me a jono AT jonobacon DOT org about it | 05:42 |
| Burgwork | jono, no, do it now! ;) | 05:42 |
| === jono loads the shotgun... | ||
| jono | :P | 05:42 |
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| bddebian | Hello again nalioth :-) | 05:43 |
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| nalioth | bddebian: yes, thank you. (no thanks to my ignorant ISP, tho) | 05:44 |
| dholbach | jono: else Burgwork will write angry blog entries :-P | 05:45 |
| Burgwork | dholbach, very angry blog entries. Filled with much gnashing of teeth :) | 05:45 |
| jono | :P | 05:46 |
| Burgwork | all about how the powers that be are ignoring poor pitiful volunteer me | 05:46 |
| dholbach | Burgwork: as i said.... I'm not sure that angry blog entries help much | 05:47 |
| zul | Burgwork: the usual fire and brimstone? | 05:47 |
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| Burgwork | zul, absolutely | 05:57 |
| Chipzz | sorry for the off-topic question, but does anyone know wth this could mean? | 06:05 |
| Chipzz | getpeername(0, 0xbfcd2610, [16] ) = -1 ENOTSOCK (Socket operation on non-socket) | 06:05 |
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| Lathiat_ | assumedly it means the the file descripter passed to getpeername is not a socket | 06:05 |
| Lathiat_ | which that it is the first argument | 06:06 |
| Lathiat_ | which is 0 | 06:06 |
| azeem | is 0 a valid file descriptor/socket name? | 06:06 |
| Chipzz | fd 16? | 06:06 |
| Lathiat_ | your most certainly tryign to pass NULL incorrectly | 06:06 |
| Chipzz | I have absolutely no idea | 06:06 |
| Lathiat_ | apt-get install manpages-dev | 06:06 |
| Lathiat_ | man getpeername | 06:06 |
| Chipzz | hrrm | 06:07 |
| === Chipzz digs further | ||
| mjr | azeem, it tends to be stdin (though just by convention :] ) | 06:07 |
| azeem | ah, right | 06:08 |
| Chipzz | this makes no sense | 06:08 |
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| wasabi_ | Hey, what's up with Pulse? | 06:15 |
| wasabi_ | It packaged? | 06:15 |
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| Chipzz | ah ok | 06:20 |
| Chipzz | this binary is supposed to run from inetd | 06:20 |
| Chipzz | starting to make sense now | 06:21 |
| G0SUB | pitti: yes, they are done here. I am yet to commit. | 06:21 |
| mjr | Chipzz, yes, that would | 06:22 |
| mdz | jdub: pong | 06:28 |
| mvo | infinity: could you please kick the gksu build? | 06:28 |
| jdub | mdz: can you look at an rrdtool upgrade for me? | 06:28 |
| mdz | jdub: perhaps | 06:29 |
| jdub | deb-src http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/ubuntu/edgy/ / | 06:29 |
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| infinity | mvo: I just (ie: 2 minutes ago) did a mass give-back. | 06:32 |
| infinity | mvo: So it'll get kicked with everything else in about 15 mins. | 06:32 |
| mvo | infinity: ah, cool. thanks | 06:32 |
| jdub | mdz: some of the bindings don't have dependencies, so was difficult to seriously test it ;) | 06:33 |
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| quail | hello | 06:39 |
| wasabi_ | We used ot have polypaudio packages. Those seem to have vanished. jdub? Done Pulse packages? | 06:42 |
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| pitti | wasabi_: we removed them when polypaudio was abandoned upstream and too buggy | 06:42 |
| wasabi_ | Hmm. There a current plan? Me and a friend are experimenting with it. | 06:42 |
| wasabi_ | Finding it quite awesome. ;) | 06:43 |
| pitti | well, personally I don't care about it :) | 06:43 |
| pitti | we use ALSA by default now, and I do not wish to reintroduce a mixing daemon by default | 06:43 |
| wasabi_ | Going at it from an angle of adding a BT headset at runtime, and moving streams over to it on the fly. | 06:43 |
| pitti | which of course does not mean that it shouldn't be packaged | 06:43 |
| wasabi_ | Or plugging a laptop into a docking station, and on plugin, changing the default output to a different audio device, etc. | 06:44 |
| wasabi_ | He's working with voip calls, basically. | 06:44 |
| mdz | jdub: if you email me a diff I'm less likely to forget | 06:44 |
| jdub | wasabi_: yeah, just haven't had time to finish them | 06:44 |
| sladen | pitti: the stuff Fabian (FreeNX) has been working on routes /dev/dsp via 'esd' | 06:44 |
| jdub | wasabi_: pulse is definitely the way to go though, none of this dmix crap :) | 06:44 |
| wasabi_ | Yeah. I agree. 100%. I've been running the entire stack through my head the last few days. | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | We have devices which won't even show in Alsa, actually. | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | user mode blue tooth devices, for instance. | 06:45 |
| jdub | wasabi_: we had a great meeting at guadec about The Future | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | Not to mention the zeroconf stuff. | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | Wish I could have come. =( | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | I'm all about The Future! | 06:45 |
| wasabi_ | I've a few things I'd like to investigate, which might make people squimish, with regards to pulse. A gstreamer source module for it. :) | 06:46 |
| jdub | nup, makes total sense - doesn't the current gstreamer plugin have a source? | 06:46 |
| wasabi_ | Well, it ships raw pcm across process. One idea is to ship the encoded audio to PA. | 06:47 |
| wasabi_ | And have PA run it's own pipeline internally to do the decoding. | 06:47 |
| wasabi_ | From the n770 angle. | 06:47 |
| wasabi_ | (they already do such with a dedicated gstreamer daemon) | 06:47 |
| wasabi_ | fun stuff. =) | 06:48 |
| jdub | oh right | 06:48 |
| jdub | yes, that was one of the difficult parts of the discussion at guadec | 06:48 |
| jdub | particularly useful for airtunes or thin client use cases | 06:49 |
| wasabi_ | src ! demux ! decodebin ! pulsesink | 06:49 |
| wasabi_ | pulsesink would detect a gstreamer enabled pulse, which would advertise it's caps. | 06:49 |
| wasabi_ | pulsesink then would tell decodebin it could accept actual ogg. | 06:49 |
| wasabi_ | decodebin would be like "oh hey, I don't have to do anything!" | 06:50 |
| wasabi_ | ogg would go to pa process, pipeline is built over there to decode ogg. | 06:50 |
| jdub | sell mezcalero on it :) | 06:50 |
| wasabi_ | Yeah. | 06:50 |
| wasabi_ | He reminded me that PA is GPL and some gstreamer mods are not. :0 | 06:50 |
| wasabi_ | interesting stuff anyways. | 06:51 |
| jdub | hrm, yeah, that's problematic | 06:51 |
| wasabi_ | Well, PA could restrict itself to GPL compat elements. | 06:51 |
| wasabi_ | white list. | 06:51 |
| wasabi_ | Only advertise the caps of those elements, etc. | 06:51 |
| wasabi_ | That's solvable, just annoying. | 06:52 |
| wasabi_ | Then the same idea pops up for a "video server", like PA. | 06:52 |
| wasabi_ | Another thing which Maemo deals with. | 06:52 |
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| wasabi_ | anyways. Just wondering if there are packages to easy my efforts. | 06:52 |
| dholbach | am I on crack or did the font display in the console (ctrl-alt-f1) get much cleaner? | 06:53 |
| cr3 | anyone happen to know of a workaround for the problem where the screen blanks during install on a machine with an i810 based video controller? | 06:53 |
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| Keybuk | man, DVD Authoring on Linux is *hard* | 06:54 |
| pygi | Keybuk, not for long ^ | 06:55 |
| ogra | Keybuk, i think pygi has a program | 06:55 |
| ogra | :) | 06:55 |
| pygi | ergh, knew it :) | 06:55 |
| === pygi eats ogra :) | ||
| ogra | hehe | 06:55 |
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| Keybuk | pygi: oh aye? | 06:55 |
| ogra | pitti, is there a reason we dont have "dev.cdrom.lock=0" in sysctl.conf ? | 06:56 |
| pygi | Keybuk, the part that you want will be here and will be higly usable, but is in no usable condition for now ^_^ | 06:56 |
| === pygi wonders how ogra remembered that... | ||
| Keybuk | the main problem is getting the encoding right | 06:56 |
| ogra | pygi, my mind is like a big dusty chaotic storage ;) | 06:57 |
| pygi | ogra, weee :) | 06:57 |
| Keybuk | the one I just wrote was ok, but not perfect ... in particular it had to pad in an extra frame | 06:57 |
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| pygi | Keybuk, so no worries....it'll be easy one day ^_3 | 06:58 |
| pygi | ^_^ | 06:58 |
| Burgwork | pygi, release early, release often | 06:58 |
| pygi | Burgwork, ofcourse ^_^ | 06:59 |
| pygi | and usable, if appliable :) | 06:59 |
| Keybuk | release before I've got sick of doing it manually | 06:59 |
| Keybuk | and written my own | 06:59 |
| Keybuk | <g> | 06:59 |
| ogra | heh | 06:59 |
| pygi | Keybuk, how much time do I have? | 07:00 |
| === ogra guesses some hours | ||
| pygi | I am currently messing with libburn, so I can't make any promises ^_^ | 07:00 |
| === pygi thinks some hours won't be enough as he won't be here next...hm...5 hours? :) | ||
| Keybuk | libburn? | 07:01 |
| Keybuk | you're not just shelling out to the existing tools? | 07:01 |
| ogra | libburn is the future :) | 07:01 |
| Keybuk | let me guess, you send the movie over d-bus? :p | 07:02 |
| pygi | ogra, let's hope so ^_^ | 07:02 |
| ogra | lol | 07:02 |
| ogra | in messages ? | 07:02 |
| pygi | Keybuk, ofcourse, you have any other idea? that seemed the best last time I checked :) | 07:02 |
| === Keybuk gets Stevens open again | ||
| Keybuk | ...so, TIOCSCTTY did very bad things to X | 07:04 |
| pygi | ogra, as soon as 3 critical features (for now) are implemented, I'll consider libburn taken it's first step to the future :) | 07:04 |
| ogra | :) | 07:04 |
| pygi | which would be -tao, multi-session, and dvd support ^_^ | 07:05 |
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| pygi | and a couple of annoying bugs ^_^ | 07:07 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: around? | 07:07 |
| zul | he was around earlier | 07:07 |
| === pygi sends Keybuk over d-bus to ... hm, ehm...hm.. who wants keybuk? :) | ||
| mjg59 | Keybuk: hi | 07:11 |
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| Keybuk | mjg59: do you know much about terminal handling on Linux? | 07:12 |
| mjg59 | Not realy | 07:12 |
| Keybuk | no, me neither ... I figured you might having played with usplash | 07:12 |
| Keybuk | I managed to get it to do things I've seen both usplash and acpi-support do | 07:13 |
| Keybuk | (active terminal gets nothing but \n) | 07:13 |
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| Surak | BenC: ping | 07:16 |
| BenC | Surak: pong | 07:21 |
| Surak | Benc: (in regard of bug #55104 ): the option for disabling video (or changing vga priority) on setup of all i865-based MSI boards fails. | 07:22 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55104 in linux-source-2.6.15 "panic/lock/restart on dapper-amd64 if there's intel integrated video AND a nvidia card at the same time" [Untriaged,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55104 | 07:22 |
| BenC | Surak: We wont be implementing that script workaround | 07:23 |
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| BenC | Surak: I'm not sure what the best fix is, but it needs to not crash in cases like yours | 07:23 |
| BenC | proper thing would be to fail to setup DRM | 07:23 |
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| Surak | Which would mean to blacklist intel-agp by default. | 07:24 |
| BenC | no, that's not what it means | 07:24 |
| BenC | it means nvidia should fail to initialize in this case | 07:24 |
| Surak | by blacklisting intel-agp would disable DRI on intel boards, but would make X start on every case. | 07:26 |
| Surak | we could change the udev rule for intel-agp. It could call a script and verify if there's a nvidia board present, and then refuse to load. Is there any way to make a 'conditional' udev rule? | 07:29 |
| === mjg59 boggles | ||
| Keybuk | Surak: err, what are you trying to do? | 07:29 |
| mjg59 | It's perfectly valid for intel-agp to be loaded when nvidia is | 07:29 |
| mjg59 | There appears to be one specific case where there's a problem | 07:30 |
| Keybuk | this sounds like a driver bug to me | 07:30 |
| mjg59 | And if you're not using the nvidia binary drivers, then there's nothing that'll ever touch intel-agp on that system | 07:31 |
| Surak | mjg59: yes, this is quite specific to i865 chipset and nvidia boards. | 07:31 |
| mjg59 | So can we drop the idea of blacklisting and try to find out what the actual bug is? | 07:32 |
| === Kaleo is now known as Kaleo|work | ||
| mjg59 | Firstly, if you blacklist the nvidia module, does it work? | 07:32 |
| Surak | mjg59: the problem is that when intel_agp is loaded, the machine will hang. I have three different mainboards which use this chipset and all of them hangs. | 07:32 |
| mjg59 | Surak: No, that is not the problem | 07:32 |
| mjg59 | Surak: The problem is that the machine hangs | 07:32 |
| mjg59 | Surak: We need to determine /why/ that happens before we know how to fix the bug | 07:33 |
| Surak | let me try blacklisting nvidia. | 07:33 |
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| Surak | 'll be back in a minute. | 07:35 |
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| Surak | mjg59: blacklisting nvidia does not work. The machine still panics. | 07:51 |
| mjg59 | Surak: Can you provide the panic? | 07:52 |
| Surak | I'll do this right away. | 07:52 |
| mjg59 | Thanks | 07:53 |
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| Surak | hum... not easy to take a kernel panic log, as / is mounted RO when /etc/rcS.d/S07linux-restricted-modules-common is run. Whatever, let me mount it rw before. | 08:20 |
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| BenC | is lp down? | 08:50 |
| Burgwork | BenC, ubuntu.com appears to be down as well | 08:51 |
| Burgwork | strike that, very slow | 08:51 |
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| Riddell | mjg59: do we have SetPowerSave in ubuntu's HAL? | 09:09 |
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| mjg59 | Riddell: Not sure | 09:21 |
| Riddell | mjg59: next question, do you know how g-p-m decides if it should run or not? | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | It's started as part of the session | 09:27 |
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| Surak | mjg59: I'm not being able to capture the crash. The system logs nothing. If I tell ksyslogd to start earlier, the only message in /var/log is a :"Aug 8 16:23:31 ubuntu syslogd 1.4.1#17ubuntu7: restart" | 09:31 |
| Riddell | mjg59: but presumably it doesn't run if you don't have power management? | 09:32 |
| Surak | As it restarts immediately, I can't even type it. | 09:32 |
| mjg59 | Surak: It's likely that it never hits disk. | 09:34 |
| mjg59 | Riddell: I don't believe there are any systems that don't have power management | 09:35 |
| Surak | mjg59: I forced mounting of / in rw mode, so syslog can write to /var/log. I don't have any serial console to log it. Do you have any other idea on how can I get this panic log? | 09:35 |
| mjg59 | Surak: Pen and paper, I'm afraid | 09:35 |
| Surak | mjg59: I can't, because the panic shows for a very small time, and the machine immediately restarts. | 09:36 |
| jdub | digital camera! attach the photo to a launchpad bug :) | 09:36 |
| Spads | doing flickr searches for like "kernel panic" are great | 09:39 |
| jdub | ha ha | 09:39 |
| jdub | uh | 09:40 |
| jdub | actually | 09:40 |
| jdub | the osx kernel panics are cool | 09:40 |
| jdub | http://flickr.com/photos/cryw/145375770/ | 09:40 |
| jdub | bonus | 09:40 |
| jdub | uh, holy crap | 09:41 |
| jdub | an overwhelming number of the first page are osx panics | 09:41 |
| jdub | not sure what that speaks to most | 09:42 |
| jdub | flickr user profile? | 09:42 |
| jdub | osx stability? | 09:42 |
| jdub | deployment numbers? | 09:42 |
| Spads | user choice of tools? | 09:42 |
| Spads | it strikes me that OSX's touted demographic are more likely to have photo/video recording equipment near the monitor | 09:43 |
| jdub | yeah | 09:43 |
| jdub | also it is worth taking a photo of, really ;) | 09:43 |
| Spads | yeah, that's a gorgeous color scheme | 09:43 |
| Spads | it should have like the narita announcer track recorded in ROM and fed into dedicated chips driving the speakers | 09:44 |
| tseng | that would be horrific | 09:44 |
| jdub | when tseng says horrific, he means dope | 09:45 |
| === stealf [n=stefan@c83-253-20-160.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| tseng | I don't want my computer to talk | 09:45 |
| tseng | think of the translation issues | 09:46 |
| tseng | if you want a really concrete example of why its a bad idea | 09:46 |
| tseng | beyond OMG CRACK | 09:46 |
| Spads | they have four languages up there | 09:47 |
| Spads | that's why I was saying like the narita announcer girl | 09:47 |
| mc44 | Just have them speak in Esperanto - no worries | 09:47 |
| Spads | it looks like the sort of plaquards you find in aeropuertinos | 09:47 |
| dmg | whois spads | 09:47 |
| === Spads is GAR | ||
| tseng | dmg: someone with an unfortunate client config | 09:48 |
| Keybuk | jdub: it makes you wonder though ... if their system can do that much fancy shit, why is it PANICing in the first place? | 09:48 |
| Spads | and by unfortunate, tseng means dope | 09:48 |
| Keybuk | the entire point of a PANIC is that the kernel dare not do anything for fear of breaking the system | 09:48 |
| dmg | bah, wanted to see if there was a country associated with 'aeropuertinos' | 09:48 |
| tseng | by unfortunate, tseng means please fix your ircname: | 09:48 |
| tseng | with what your mother named you | 09:48 |
| Spads | dmg: no, I was just hoping that it would be mangled enough to be offensive in some language | 09:48 |
| Spads | tseng: that old hag? | 09:48 |
| Spads | and no, I don't want Rob Levin to find me. | 09:49 |
| Keybuk | zsh: segmentation fault (core dumped) dd if=/dev/zero bs=4 count=1920 | 09:54 |
| Keybuk | ...eerrr... | 09:54 |
| Spads | http://flickr.com/photos/cookiecrook/115108768/ <-- that's more like a kernel panic. I think that other thing was closer to an oops | 09:55 |
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| Burgwork | Spads, I like the last two comments | 09:56 |
| nixternal | heh, "it doesn't give you a choice" | 09:57 |
| nixternal | nice | 09:57 |
| Spads | I think he thought it was like a root window xterm type display | 09:58 |
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| jdub | AHR! | 10:00 |
| jdub | 24" OF PURE IRSSI! | 10:00 |
| wasabi_ | This line must be 1 cm long | 10:00 |
| jdub | high, you mean. | 10:00 |
| jdub | in fact | 10:01 |
| jdub | i think it is | 10:01 |
| jdub | BONUS! | 10:01 |
| pitti | jdub: size DOES matter? :) | 10:02 |
| Kamion | infinity: the usplash configuration failure in http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/edgy/edubuntu/latest/livecd-20060808-i386.out is a little odd. Is /proc not mounted? | 10:09 |
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| Kamion | mjg59: that single <(...) in usplash.postinst has caused more failed installs than anything else in edgy in the last week, I think :( | 10:10 |
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| Kamion | is there no way to reword that in POSIXese? | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | Kamion: Not that I could work out | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | It needs to convert something of the form | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | 1024x768, 800x600, 640x480 | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | to | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | x=1024; y=768 | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | without picking up any of the later stuff | 10:11 |
| Kamion | eval `sed script` | 10:11 |
| Kamion | ? | 10:11 |
| mjg59 | Yeah. Sounded ugly, though. | 10:12 |
| Kamion | at this point the bashism seems more ugly | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | I'd sort of expected systems to actually work :) | 10:12 |
| Kamion | well, not because it's a bashism | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | I can do it cleanly in zsh | 10:12 |
| Kamion | surprising that even our buildds don't seem to have it though - that suggests very little else is using /dev/fd | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | But I don't think that's a great answer either | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | Yes | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | I seem to remember that there's at least one other package that can be expected to break | 10:13 |
| Amaranth | mjg59: Hey, latest usplash at least doesn't die with "screen init failed" but I get garbage on the screen. Blue and green vertical lines. | 10:14 |
| jdub | hrm, why does ubuntu-desktop depend on linux-headers-686 (specifically 686)? | 10:14 |
| tseng | jdub: so kids can build their own network driver | 10:16 |
| tseng | oh | 10:16 |
| tseng | good question | 10:16 |
| jdub | Kamion: possibly one for you, seed master | 10:17 |
| jdub | (haw haw) | 10:17 |
| tseng | it was mdz's add | 10:17 |
| Kamion | mjg59: hang on, isn't this really easy? | 10:21 |
| Kamion | x="$(echo "$RET" | cut -d, -f1 | cut -dx -f1)" | 10:21 |
| Kamion | y="$(echo "$RET" | cut -d, -f1 | cut -dx -f2)" | 10:21 |
| Kamion | ok, so it's a few more processes, but no big deal in a postinst | 10:22 |
| Kamion | jdub: as tseng says, mdz explicitly added it | 10:22 |
| Kamion | jdub: you can bzr log the seeds | 10:22 |
| Kamion | and it's -686 because it was moved over verbatim from the ship seed | 10:23 |
| Kamion | or ship-live actually | 10:23 |
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| mdz | jdub: because -686 is the kernel that folks will get by default installing from the edgy desktop CD | 10:30 |
| jdub | mdz: and we don't have linux-headers to depend on? | 10:31 |
| mdz | jdub: no, we don't | 10:31 |
| jdub | bum | 10:31 |
| mdz | we could, but I'm not sure I see what that would buy us | 10:31 |
| jdub | not having -k7 and -686 installed at the same time | 10:31 |
| mdz | apt isn't smart enough to give you linux-headers-somethingelse when you have that kernel | 10:31 |
| jdub | but that's just being anal | 10:31 |
| mdz | I'm not entirely convinced that we need -k7 | 10:32 |
| jdub | that'd be a fine solution too ;) | 10:32 |
| mdz | we'll find out real quick | 10:32 |
| mdz | since -686 will be the boot kernel on the desktop CD | 10:32 |
| jdub | of course, not shipping all this crap would be sweeter ;-) | 10:32 |
| jdub | oh, going 686 - nice | 10:32 |
| mdz | jdub: ;-D | 10:32 |
| === jdub hates on gcc in desktop seed | ||
| jdub | i wonder what the reception would have been if we'd shipped 686 by default in warty | 10:33 |
| jdub | the only really sucky things are geodes and cyrix stuff, right? | 10:33 |
| mdz | jdub: you'll get over it | 10:34 |
| mdz | and thousands of users will thank us | 10:34 |
| jdub | thousands of ex gentoo users will thank us | 10:34 |
| jdub | you're just trying to drain gentoo again man | 10:34 |
| jdub | "Use Ubuntu: Because Now You Can Bang Two *Smaller* Rocks Together!" | 10:34 |
| mdz | thousands of people who need drivers to make their system work will thank us | 10:34 |
| jdub | ;-) | 10:35 |
| mdz | that's the only use case | 10:35 |
| mdz | I went over this in some detail on the mailing list | 10:35 |
| mdz | it is not about compiling anything else; in fact you *can't* compile much else with that environment | 10:35 |
| jdub | yeah | 10:35 |
| jdub | i noticed it's very minimal | 10:35 |
| jdub | but i still think it's misdirected | 10:36 |
| mdz | being able to build drivers on the live CD is huge | 10:36 |
| jdub | it's huge for a tiny portion of users :-) | 10:36 |
| mdz | I think it's worse than you think | 10:36 |
| jdub | well | 10:36 |
| jdub | i know it's bad | 10:36 |
| jdub | but i also know what users do | 10:36 |
| jdub | "Hrm, back to OS X!" | 10:36 |
| mdz | I am not interested in that argument-by-recto-cranial-inversion | 10:37 |
| jdub | we're saving maybe 0.5% of users from that fate | 10:37 |
| jdub | well you need a recto-cranial-inversion to remember what it's like to be a normal user :) | 10:38 |
| jdub | seriously, what is my mum going to do with gcc and non-working wifi? | 10:38 |
| mdz | the users we have who are 'normal' are a minority | 10:38 |
| mdz | the rest are early adopters | 10:38 |
| jdub | she doesn't even know what kind of network card it is | 10:38 |
| mdz | your mum neither knows nor cares | 10:39 |
| jdub | or which stinky dungeon website she's going to find some source in | 10:39 |
| mdz | this doesn't solve your mum's problem | 10:39 |
| mdz | but it also costs her nothing | 10:39 |
| mdz | she will not even notice the difference | 10:39 |
| mdz | so she is irrelevant | 10:39 |
| jdub | okay, so if we put her out of the picture | 10:39 |
| mdz | so we have two types of users to consider | 10:39 |
| jdub | we're helping a tiny percentage of users who will understand this stuff and have the desire to bang two rocks together | 10:39 |
| mdz | users who need this in order to follow a how-to and make their system work | 10:39 |
| mdz | and users who have a philosophical problem with compilers | 10:40 |
| mdz | I have no qualms about sacrificing the latter for the former | 10:40 |
| jdub | why can't that howto involve apt-get install gcc (given that it could be in a repo on the cd)? | 10:40 |
| mdz | dude, read the thread | 10:41 |
| mdz | I explained this a hundred times | 10:41 |
| jdub | i read the thread | 10:41 |
| jdub | well, i think i read it all | 10:41 |
| jdub | was this question raised? | 10:41 |
| mdz | apt-get install build-essential on a live CD blows | 10:41 |
| mdz | installing gcc just to remove it again is stupid | 10:41 |
| jdub | (sorry to turn a cheap gag into a discussion...) | 10:41 |
| jdub | well, once it's installed, it's installed and copied to the disk, right? | 10:42 |
| jdub | upon distro install | 10:42 |
| mdz | correct, and tada, the existing howtos which are, by the way, not written specifically for Ubuntu, magically work | 10:42 |
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| mdz | they won't all say apt-get install gcc because most of the documentation which exists isn't Ubuntu-specific | 10:42 |
| mdz | and they sure as hell won't say apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r` | 10:43 |
| jdub | heh | 10:43 |
| mdz | this means that people can go to Intel's driver website, read the instructions, and fix their problem | 10:43 |
| Surak | jdub: no, it's not copied to the disk. This will prevent someone from screwing the live cd and installing a borked system. | 10:44 |
| mjg59 | Why -686 as default? | 10:45 |
| mdz | jdub: oh, you meant the driver? no, the driver won't be copied | 10:45 |
| jdub | mdz: (no, i meant after apt-get installing gcc on the livecd, it would be copied to the disk on distro install) | 10:45 |
| mdz | mjg59: because you need lots of RAM to boot the live CD, and if you do, you are very likely to have a 686 or better | 10:45 |
| jdub | mdz: (but then i realise that the non-modified dm is copied) | 10:45 |
| mdz | jdub: oh, that's not true either | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Is lots of RAM inherently true? It's required if you want to get the full gnome stack up, sure | 10:46 |
| mdz | jdub: that is, you're correct in your last comment | 10:46 |
| jdub | heh, yeah | 10:46 |
| mdz | mjg59: booting the desktop CD single-user is a pretty weird use case | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | mdz: For install purposes, it wouldn't seem unreasonable | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | We can bring up the installer without bringing up the entirity of gnome | 10:46 |
| mdz | the only installer on that CD is a pygtk program | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | Yeah | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | But that's still a pretty major saving in memory | 10:47 |
| jdub | mjg59: how would you do that? gfxboot option? | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | jdub: Yes | 10:47 |
| mdz | ubiquity and its deps actually eat a lot of RAM, less than GNOME for sure, but you'd still need >64M | 10:47 |
| Surak | jdub: "no, i meant after apt-get installing gcc on the livecd" <- That won't happen | 10:48 |
| jdub | Surak: read above, it was all talke through | 10:48 |
| mjg59 | mdz: 128MB was common in the Pentium II era, where all the alternative CPUs were 586 instruction set | 10:48 |
| Surak | jdub: oh | 10:48 |
| === jdub can't wait for jdahlin's pygtk trimming results | ||
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| mjg59 | mdz: Actually, can we check this from the hwdb results? | 10:49 |
| mdz | mjg59: to date, nobody has even noticed as a result of trying to use the CD | 10:49 |
| mdz | mjg59: we can, yes | 10:49 |
| mjg59 | mdz: I don't think I have access to the data | 10:50 |
| mdz | mjg59: I don't seem to have a copy anymore, and I forget where it's moved to | 10:50 |
| mjg59 | But it would be interesting to see how many machines there are with cpu family 5 and 128M of RAM | 10:50 |
| mjg59 | Who's running it these days? | 10:50 |
| mdz | mjg59: I'd be willing to make a small wager on that | 10:50 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Sure, it's going to be small, but it might be larger than you think | 10:51 |
| mdz | PS, the live environment doesn't boot in 128M | 10:51 |
| jdub | wager == boxer run at next summit you're both present at | 10:51 |
| elmo | mjg59: ogra | 10:51 |
| mdz | elmo: but hosted by us now, no? | 10:51 |
| mjg59 | mdz: But that's because of Gnome, no? | 10:51 |
| mdz | mjg59: we can revisit this if you write a stripped-down installation environment and measure its memory requirements | 10:52 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Sure. I'll have a play. | 10:52 |
| mdz | mjg59: but I expect that the set of machines which will be happy running installed GNOME vs. those which can boot that environment would be pretty small | 10:52 |
| mdz | and we provide Xubuntu for the low end | 10:52 |
| elmo | mdz: not yet | 10:53 |
| mjg59 | mdz: I agree, but there's a definite set that could potentially be catered to | 10:53 |
| elmo | mdz: tho, I think (only since a couple of weeks) that's now blocked on us - I'll file something in RT so it gets done | 10:53 |
| mdz | elmo: please CC me on the RT | 10:54 |
| mjg59 | I'll try to find out the requirements, and I'll try to find out how big that set is | 10:54 |
| mdz | mjg59: ogra would probably be willing to get you a shell account to get the stats | 10:54 |
| mdz | mjg59: but I'm quite confident that it's fewer than, say, the number of people who will be running Ubuntu on dual core machines next year | 10:55 |
| === ogra_ wonders why that line didnt highlight ... | ||
| mjg59 | mdz: -386 isn't inherently UP | 10:55 |
| mdz | mjg59: our -386 is (and must be, as I understand it) UP | 10:55 |
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| mjg59 | mdz: Hm? I thought that was just a policy decision in the dapper timeframe (we weren't confident enough in the SMP rewriting to make it the default kernel) | 10:56 |
| Burgwork | mjg59, also remember, the hwdb client has been hidden for dapper, so results may not be entirely accurate | 10:56 |
| mdz | mjg59: the kernel team looked into this for dapper and this was the outcome | 10:56 |
| mjg59 | Burgwork: And not everyone runs it anyway | 10:56 |
| ogra_ | mjg59, i have a set of 200 000 records on my people.ubuntu.com account ... (5 gig) if you want to have that or as mdz said, you can get a shell account on my server | 10:56 |
| mdz | mjg59: no, there was a reason why it couldn't work | 10:56 |
| mjg59 | But it's potentially indicative | 10:56 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Suck | 10:56 |
| mdz | mjg59: BenC will remember what it was | 10:57 |
| mdz | I don't | 10:57 |
| Burgwork | mjg59, indeed, but hiding it removes the chance of serendipitious discovery | 10:57 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Sure, I'll ask him | 10:57 |
| jdub | ubiquity should prompt to run it | 10:57 |
| mdz | Burgwork: its menu entry was "rightsized" | 10:57 |
| Burgwork | it should | 10:57 |
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| Burgwork | the client should also be expanded to cover the full laptop testing suite, as an option | 10:58 |
| mjg59 | ogra_: Downloading 5 gig would be a bit of a pain, so an account would help :) | 10:58 |
| mdz | ogra: I hope you switched from bzip2 to gzip -9 as I suggested, otherwise mjg59's query will take aeons | 11:00 |
| ogra | ergh, nope | 11:02 |
| ogra | but the machine isnt the PII 233 anymore ... :) | 11:02 |
| ogra | mjg59, try ssh aleph.grawert.net | 11:03 |
| mjg59 | ogra: Works | 11:04 |
| ogra | yep, i see you | 11:04 |
| mjg59 | ogra: Ok. Where's the data? | 11:04 |
| ogra | /var/www/grawert.net/data/hwdb-data/ | 11:04 |
| ogra | be careful the dir is huge | 11:04 |
| mjg59 | Ok | 11:05 |
| mjg59 | One file per submission? | 11:05 |
| ogra | yep | 11:05 |
| mjg59 | Heh | 11:05 |
| ogra | and we're near 300000 :) | 11:05 |
| ogra | i'm waiting for the ok from elmo to move it, then i'll change to some dir driven sorting ... | 11:05 |
| === mjg59 manages to pic a Mac at his first attempt | ||
| mjg59 | Heh | 11:07 |
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| mjg59 | My second attempt gives me a 586 with 192MB | 11:07 |
| ogra | heh | 11:07 |
| ogra | yes, there are funny setups in that collection :) | 11:07 |
| === mjg59 wonders how to actually do this | ||
| mjg59 | Ah, this'll do | 11:09 |
| mjg59 | Oops | 11:10 |
| ogra | just dont kill the server, i get my mail through it ;) | 11:10 |
| mjg59 | Haha | 11:10 |
| jdub | that's what they said about the o-rings | 11:10 |
| mdz | jdub: they said that ogra gets his mail through o-rings? | 11:12 |
| ogra | heh | 11:12 |
| jdub | niiiice | 11:12 |
| jdub | so upgrade to edgy on my desktop was a bit hairy | 11:13 |
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| mjg59 | mdz: Interestingly, while the absolute number is small, average memory for 586 machines is hovering around 192MB | 11:25 |
| Burgwork | mjg59, by absolute number, are we talking less than 50/40/30/20/10/5%? | 11:26 |
| mjg59 | Burgwork: I don't have useful progress data, so I'll have to wait until it's finished | 11:26 |
| Burgwork | right | 11:27 |
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| mdz | mjg59: I think that's probably due to our analogue of the anthropic principle | 11:35 |
| mdz | mjg59: only 586s with that much RAM were able to run the hwdb client :-) | 11:35 |
| mjg59 | Haha | 11:35 |
| tseng | is there a mirror of edgy stuff? | 11:35 |
| tseng | the knot1 cds | 11:35 |
| mdz | tseng: I believe so; see the knot release announcements | 11:36 |
| tseng | ah | 11:36 |
| tseng | umu, thanks | 11:36 |
| mc44 | hmm any ideas when the next community council meeting might be? | 11:39 |
| tseng | mc44: there is a calendar on fridge.ubuntu.com | 11:39 |
| mc44 | tseng: yes with no CC entries... | 11:40 |
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| mjg59 | Oh, hang on, this machine doesn't have a DVD burner... | 11:40 |
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| tseng | The next meeting of the Council will be at to be announced on #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net | 11:41 |
| tseng | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda | 11:41 |
| tseng | funny. | 11:41 |
| mc44 | heh | 11:41 |
| mc44 | there hasnt seemed to be much notice of the CC meetings recently... | 11:42 |
| mc44 | maybe jono will sort them out :) | 11:42 |
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