[12:07] <HarrySprocket> Is everyone in here paid?
[12:07] <LaserJock> hehe, I wish ;-)
[12:07] <LaserJock> most are not
[12:07] <bmonty> LaserJock gets paid though
[12:08] <LaserJock> bmonty: what? I get paid with bug reports :-)
[12:08] <HarrySprocket> .I'm a ubuntu user from NZ!
[12:08] <sladen> HarrySprocket: nope.
[12:08] <bmonty> LaserJock: that is currency in MOTU-land, right?
[12:08] <LaserJock> HarrySprocket: you need to get ahold of an IRC op for #ubuntu to get yourself unbanned
[12:08] <HarrySprocket> ok
[12:08] <LaserJock> bmonty: sure, sure ;-)
[12:09] <HarrySprocket> I have some ideas for ubuntu
[12:09] <LaserJock> great, write a specification on the wiki detailing all the implementation plans and announce it on the ubuntu-devel mailing list
[12:10] <LaserJock> make sure to include background and use cases
[12:13] <LaserJock> HarrySprocket: pm Madpilot about your #ubuntu ban
[12:16] <LaserJock> HarrySprocket: join #ubuntu-ops to talk about your ban
[12:17] <pitti> Kamion: test install just finished on ppc, and I hear rockin' sound \o/
[12:18] <pitti> Kamion: that means, no more regressions from my side
[12:18] <MarkShuttleWorth> Hello
[12:18] <MarkShuttleWorth> Are is everyone today?
[12:18] <pitti> MarkShuttleWorth: Hi Mark!
[12:18] <MarkShuttleWorth> how*
[12:18] <mjg59> "sam"?
[12:19] <MarkShuttleWorth> great!
[12:19] <Surak> sam - new zealand?
[12:19] <crimsun> dead give-away there. HarrySprocket.
[12:20] <pitti> MarkShuttleWorth: what happened to our beloved 'SABDFL'? :)
[12:20] <sabdfl> *cough choke splutter*
[12:20] <HarrySprocket> Does Mark Chat in here sometimes?
[12:20] <crimsun> he's right there.
[12:20] <sabdfl> imposter
[12:21] <HarrySprocket> I assumed you would know it wasnt Mark
[12:21] <HarrySprocket> haha
[12:21] <sabdfl> well. *I* knew :-)
[12:21] <Surak> HarrySprocket, sabdfl IS Mark...
[12:22] <HarrySprocket> ok
[12:22] <HarrySprocket> good, i wasnt an imposter
[12:22] <sabdfl> ;-)
[12:22] <HarrySprocket> sabdfl, did you know ubuntu is very popular in NZ?
[12:23] <sabdfl> oh, that's cool - no i didn't!
[12:26] <HarrySprockett> my connection is crap!
[12:28] <nixternal> ubuntu devs...check it out....i am working on the Kubuntu Edgy Eft Knot releases.. see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot2/Kubuntu for an idea, however, if you all are interested in a familiar layout let myself or Corey Burger know, as these will become "Release" pages if i am correct ;)
[12:28] <tseng> releases = release nodes?
[12:28] <pitti> good night everyone!
[12:29] <nixternal> notes yes
[12:29] <nixternal> but not the release notes that will be with the official 6.10 release of course
[12:29] <nixternal> those are docbook and not moin ;)
[12:29] <Surak> night pitti!
[12:46] <FreeSourcly> Ubuntu needs to move away from linux or it will always just be knowen as a 'linux distro'
[12:47] <FreeSourcly> it needs too use the best of linux but start moving away now.
[12:47] <LaserJock> hehe, and that's bad?
[12:47] <FreeSourcly> yes because '
[12:47] <FreeSourcly> distros come and go.......
[12:47] <LaserJock> that makes no sense
[12:48] <Fujitsu> Less than no sense.
[12:48] <LaserJock> yes, distros come and go, but linux doesn't
[12:48] <FreeSourcly> the ultimate goal should be a independant OS
[12:48] <LaserJock> so why would we move away from Linux
[12:48] <Fujitsu> Yeah, we don't really want to have our own kernel written...
[12:49] <nixternal> s/and/an as well
[12:50] <nalioth> 'ray peer!
[12:50] <Fujitsu> ...?
[12:51] <nalioth> (Connection reset by peer)
[12:51] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[12:55] <Frostnice> Hello
[12:55] <Frostnice> ./join #ubuntu
[12:55] <Frostnice> ops sorry.
[12:56] <Frostnice> I found a bug.
[12:56] <Frostnice> When you install....ubuntu then install kubuntu-desktop... the splash sceen changes to "blue kubuntu"
[12:56] <Surak> Frostnice: you can take a look if someone already posted it at http://launchpad.net . If yes, perhaps you can contribute with additional information on it.
[12:57] <Frostnice> it should remain "brown/orange ubuntu"
[12:57] <Surak> should it?
[12:57] <Fujitsu> That's not a bug.
[12:57] <Frostnice> well yeah.
[12:58] <Frostnice> if they firstly install 'ubuntu'
[12:58] <Frostnice> they obviously want it as default.
[12:58] <Fujitsu> And it is fairly easy to change back.
[12:58] <Fujitsu> Frostnice, not necessarily.
[12:59] <Frostnice> How do you change it back?
[12:59] <Frostnice> I'm a n00b.
[12:59] <Surak> Frostnice: support questions are better handled at #ubuntu, not here.
[01:00] <Frostnice> Im banned
[01:00] <Fujitsu> That's silly of you.
[01:01] <Surak> You already said that before. Perhaps you were banned for a reason?
[01:01] <Fujitsu> Perhaps for trolling about Ubuntu moving away from Linux?
[01:01] <Fujitsu> Now, move this to #ubuntu-offtopic, please.
[01:02] <Frostnice> Ubuntu will take out Microsoft. Mark my words and excuse my pun.
[01:03] <TentonMice> What a reject.
[01:03] <mjg59> Be nice.
[01:03] <Fujitsu> I don't think being nice is warranted in this case.
[01:03] <mjg59> Well, alternatively just say nothing :)
[01:03] <LaserJock> well, it wasn't anything terrible
[01:04] <zul> it wasnt like the world was coming to an end, just ignore the trolls
[01:04] <crimsun> TentonMice: please try to keep discussion on-topic for development.
[03:06] <zul> hi
[04:18] <bddebian> Howdy
[04:20] <nalioth> bddebian: where you been hiding?
[04:21] <bddebian> Hi nalioth
[04:21] <bddebian> Hiding?
[04:21] <nalioth> haven't see you in a while
[04:22] <bddebian> I'm always here making the core-devs lives miserable :-)
[05:27] <MasterMatt> I have to say 'ubuntu easy' is the shit man!
[05:45] <MasterMatt> hello:)
[05:46] <Hobbsee> heya MasterMatt 
[05:46] <MasterMatt> How you doin?
[05:46] <MasterMatt> Have you tried 'easy ubuntu'?
[05:46] <MasterMatt> it's grand.
[06:59] <jdub> ha ha
[06:59] <jdub> "not defined as the opposite as something else"
[06:59] <jdub> "how about non-opensource?"
[07:02] <evand_> that just rolls off the tongue
[07:23] <Keybuk> jdub: surely commercial/proprietary is simply the absence of open source?
[07:24] <Keybuk> the opposite would be some kind of viral code that explicitly forces you to not release any source code sharing the same system? :)
[07:24] <jdub> Keybuk: ;-)
[07:25] <jdub> Keybuk: noticed that launchd is now available under ASL2?
[07:25] <Keybuk> no, I hadn't looked
[07:25] <jdub> oh. my. god.
[07:26] <jdub> no. fucking. way.
[07:26] <jdub> their collaboration server is built on twisted
[07:27] <jsgotangco> interesting
[07:40] <sivang> jdub: what's launchd ?
[07:41] <Burgundavia> sivang: apple replacement to sysvinit
[07:41] <sivang> Burgundavia: ah, I see
[07:41] <Burgundavia> sivang: as well as cron, at, etc
[07:42] <sivang> Burgundavia: ah, so it has all of those tools functionality ?
[07:43] <Burgundavia> sivang: yes, it is quite cool but sadly APSL licensed
[07:43] <Burgundavia> I think the plan is to grow Keybuk's replacement-init into something similar to it and SMF, but only GPL licensed, so distros like Suse and Fedora can use it
[07:44] <Keybuk> pretty much, yup
[07:46] <jdub> Burgundavia: did you read above?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> jdub: sorry, I just joined
[07:46] <jdub> Burgundavia: ASL2
[07:46] <whiprush> jdub: when I read about launchd I told myself "jdub going to dig this in 3...2...1..."
[07:46] <Burgundavia> launchd is ASL2?
[07:47] <jdub> whiprush: not wildly so
[07:47] <jdub> i'm more interested in the calendar server, which is built on twisted
[07:47] <whiprush> last I recall you digged the solaris thing better
[07:47] <whiprush> twisted? no shit?
[07:47] <whiprush> that's, odd ...
[07:51] <jsgotangco> why so?
[07:54] <whiprush> I typically don't equate apple with using things they didn't invent
[07:54] <ajmitch> they use a lot of stuff like that
[07:55] <jsgotangco> well they seem to have sensible developers who don't want to reinvent things that already work nicely and just complement their ideas on it
[07:59] <sivang> I suppose ASL2 is some sort of GPL compatible license so that's why the fuss about it ?
[08:00] <jsgotangco> haha yahhh
[08:00] <jsgotangco> irc mash ups would be more chaotic
[08:00] <ajmitch> sivang: because it's a free license, not considered gpl-compatible
[08:01] <ajmitch> according to the fsf, anyway
[08:01] <sivang> ajmitch: I see, meaning we cannot do free use of it in Ubuntu?
[08:01] <ajmitch> sivang: it's a free software license, so it can be used
[08:01] <ajmitch> not everything has to be GPL-compatible
[08:02] <whiprush> has anyone checked out this launchd thing in detail at all?
[08:04] <jsgotangco> it says ASL2 is incompatible with GPL
[08:04] <jsgotangco> but nonetheless,  a free software license
[08:04] <jsgotangco> sivang: ^^
[08:04] <sivang> jsgotangco: I see
[08:05] <jsgotangco> "it has certain patent termination cases that the GPL does not require"
[08:06] <Keybuk> whiprush: yes, extensively
[08:06] <Keybuk> whiprush: what would you like to know about it?
[08:07] <whiprush> Keybuk: opinion? iirc from reading the summary the problem was the licensing.
[08:07] <whiprush> just wondering if this new apache 2.0 license thing is interesting.
[08:07] <Keybuk> good points:
[08:07] <Keybuk> - simple design
[08:07] <Keybuk> - has the cron and inetd replacement out of the box
[08:07] <Keybuk> - some mythical "start services only when required" code
[08:07] <Keybuk> bad points:
[08:08] <Keybuk> - no dependency/event graph; expects apache's init script to spin until /usr is mounted, then spin until the network is up, etc.
[08:08] <Keybuk> - xml configuration
[08:08] <Lathiat_> mm xml
[08:08] <Keybuk> - probably would be considered a net loss of functionality
[08:10] <whiprush> Keybuk: so overall, thumbs down?
[08:11] <jdub> whiprush: when Keybuk thinks he can do better, definitely thumbs down ;-)
[08:11] <whiprush> haha
[08:11] <whiprush> the sun stuff looks so interesting, pity about the license.
[08:11] <jdub> whiprush: what's wrong with the license?
[08:12] <whiprush> afaik doesn't the cddl make it out of the running for putting it in ubuntu?
[08:12] <jdub> not even remotely
[08:12] <whiprush> oh really?
[08:12] <jdub> CDDL is a generalised MPL
[08:12] <jdub> a very good license
[08:13] <jdub> it also happens to be as incompatible with the GPL as the MPL is
[08:13] <jdub> but for a daemon that runs stuff...
[08:14] <whiprush> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit
[08:14] <whiprush> "The first two of these suffer from inescapable licence problems, which is relatively unfortunate as both have features that are somewhat appealing though neither quite fix our problems."
[08:15] <whiprush> is the page out of date or ... ?
[08:16] <Burgundavia> whiprush: it is out of date as for this morning
[08:16] <jdub> it's just wrong
[08:16] <jdub> people don't grok CDDL
[08:16] <Burgundavia> jdub: it seems sane to work on an init system across many distros, including debian
[08:16] <Burgundavia> debian has rejected the cddl
[08:16] <jdub> no they haven't
[08:26] <Keybuk> whiprush: actually, I liked launchd and thought it was be good for "a base to extend
[08:27] <Keybuk> but the licence was (and probably still is) against that
[08:28] <jdub> Keybuk: ASL@?
[08:28] <jdub> why so?
[08:29] <Keybuk> it isn't GPL compatible, no?
[08:29] <Keybuk> ASL2 rings vague debian-legal alarm bells in the back of my head
[08:29] <whiprush> Keybuk: fading away into sleep, but will log the rest of the conversation. :D
[08:29] <jdub> Keybuk: why would it need to be GPL compat?
[08:30] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: its GPL compatibility is disputed
[08:30] <Keybuk> jdub: otherwise many people get discouraged from adoption
[08:30] <whiprush> Keybuk: I'm sure it beats working on network-manager. :p
[08:30] <whiprush> See, that was a joke ...
[08:32] <Keybuk> jdub: e.g. depending on your interpretation of the GPL wrt dynamic linking; it may not be legal to write a GNOME frontend to launchd
[08:32] <Keybuk> (assuming you have to C&P paste code from other GNOME apps, which ime is mandatory)
[08:39] <jdub> Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper?
[08:40] <jdub> Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates?
[08:40] <jdub> Keybuk: (i wouldn't have though think linking would be required to create a frontend for launchd)
[08:40] <Keybuk> dunno, I think we have; ask pitti
[08:41] <Keybuk> jdub: you'd need at least some of the launchd config file interpretation code
[08:42] <jdub> oh
[08:42] <jdub> wow
[08:42] <jdub> timing
[08:42] <jdub> pitti: hi!
[08:42] <jdub> 16:39 < jdub> Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper?
[08:42] <jdub> 16:40 < jdub> Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates?
[08:42] <jdub> 
[08:42] <jdub> ^ pitti
[08:44] <pitti> Good morning
[08:45] <pitti> jdub: pants off!
[08:45] <pitti> jdub: just one or two, but negligible
[08:45] <pitti> jdub: as long as the new version is reasonably tested, I'm fine with that
[08:46] <pitti> jdub: just a microversion update?
[08:46] <pitti> jdub: the changelog should be checked for sanity, and if possible, the diff, too
[08:49] <jdub> pitti: ok, i'll backport and test, and let you know
[08:49] <jdub> pitti: thanks!
[08:50] <pitti> jdub: cool!
[08:57] <crimsun> I looked at trac for dapper-security and found it was a bit much, but that was a while ago
[09:02] <dholbach> good morning
[09:03] <dholbach> hey Keybuk :)
[09:04] <dholbach> I wonder if seb128 slept at all
[09:04] <dholbach> edgy-changes suggests otherwise
[09:05] <dholbach> Keybuk: thanks for all the syncs
[09:06] <pitti> Keybuk: thanks for the syncs; strange, I did not get accepted mails for most of them (just for bzr)
[09:08] <Keybuk> pitti: I'm still doing them
[09:08] <Keybuk> the process is roughly
[09:08] <Keybuk> for SYNC in LIST; do sync-source $SYNC; done ; upload all syncs
[09:08] <Keybuk> I'm still going through the list
[09:11] <Toadstool> Keybuk: sorry about the mini-dinstall sync by the way, I must have been very sleepy not to notice the NMU is misversionned... :/
[09:12] <Keybuk> \o/ only bddebian's left now
[09:15] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: how much interest have you had from other distros for init-ng-Keybukstyle?
[09:16] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: much
[09:16] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: this launchd stuff change the landscape much?
[09:16] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: everyone I've explained it to in detail has made vague "waaant" noises
[09:16] <Burgundavia> right
[09:16] <Burgundavia> any actual code from anybody else?
[09:16] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: not really;  upstart is now just as feature complete as launchd, so the theory of using that as a base wouldn't gain anything ... and I still think it has licence problems
[09:17] <Keybuk> nah, people are waiting for usto prove it works first
[09:17] <Keybuk> plus I've not published the code anyway
[09:18] <tepsipakki> seems that Enomalism isn't in edgy yet ;) http://enomalism.com/Wiki.wiki+M5902e6c2d07.0.html (a web-interface for Xen)
[09:22] <pitti> seb128!
[09:22] <mdke> cool name
[09:24] <seb128> hey pitti :)
[09:29] <dholbach> ogra: new gnome-powermanager and new gnome-screensaver
[09:32] <seb128> Keybuk: is that you that do NEW processing nowadays? evolution-data-server has new binaries: libecal1.2-7 and libedata-cal1.2-6 (sonames change), accepting them so would be welcome (no hurry, just pointing what changed for it)
[09:37] <Keybuk> seb128: I do some of it, yes
[09:37] <Keybuk> gonna do some in a few minutes
[09:39] <pitti> hi Hobbsee 
[09:41] <Hobbsee> hey pitti 
[09:47] <ogra> Keybuk, in a udev script, %k is the device name, are there easy variables for devicetype (cdrom/harddisc/camera) and for the label ? or do i need hal for that ?
[09:47] <ogra> dholbach, thanks for notifying :)
[09:50] <Keybuk> ogra: %k is the kernel name, not necessarily the name udev willg ive for the device
[09:50] <Keybuk> ogra: define "device type", define "label"
[09:50] <ogra> ah, ok
[09:50] <ogra> ype as i said above for a block device i want to know if its a cdrom or a harddisk first place ... 
[09:51] <Keybuk> assuming you mean block devices, you can use %env{ID_TYPE} and %env{ID_FS_UUID} etc.
[09:51] <Keybuk> ogra: you missed the word "block device" :p
[09:51] <ogra> ah, cool
[09:51] <ogra> yes, sorry :)
[09:51] <ogra> its early :)
[09:51] <Keybuk> udevinfo -qall is your friend
[09:51] <Keybuk> e.g. udevinfo -qall -n sda1
[09:52] <ogra> hmm, intresting ...
[09:53] <ogra> in the thin client it doesnt see the label
[09:54] <ogra> hmm, and my camera is a floppy according to ID_TYPE :)
[09:59] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: thanks for the masses of syncs/removals :)
[10:08] <ogra> Keybuk, i noticed that the fuse module isnt autoloaded if i want to access /dev/fuse ... do i need an udev script here as well ?
[10:08] <Keybuk> fuse is one of the tricky ones, like ppp, etc.
[10:09] <Keybuk> it's not associated with any device, so it won't be automatically loaded
[10:09] <ogra> well, i'll need it loaded for ltspfs
[10:09] <Keybuk> the easiest way is just modprobe -Qb fuse
[10:09] <ogra> and the fuse utils are all acessing /dev/fuse
[10:09] <ogra> i.e. fusermount
[10:10] <ogra> so i'd assume we can associate t with that device ...
[10:10] <Keybuk> another way would be to put /dev/fuse in /lib/udev/devices
[10:10] <Keybuk> device == physical device, sorry
[10:10] <ogra> and link it to /dev ?
[10:11] <Keybuk> things in /lib/udev/devices are copied to /dev by the udev init script
[10:11] <ogra> hmm, that would mean i have it permanently loaded 
[10:12] <Keybuk> no, it'd be loaded when the device was first touched
[10:12] <ogra> loading the module already creates it dynamically in /dev
[10:12] <Keybuk> one can mknod anything without loading the module
[10:12] <Keybuk> right
[10:12] <Keybuk> the choice is
[10:12] <Keybuk> 1) loading the module with modprobe so the device is created
[10:12] <Keybuk> 2) having the device already around, so the module is loaded by kmod
[10:12] <ogra> hmm ...
[10:13] <ogra> 1) is a problem because i'd need root access while a user driven script runs ...
[10:13] <Keybuk> right, we have the same problem with ppp
[10:13] <ogra> so the ltspfs postinst would have to mknod /lib/udev/devices/fuse ... ok
[10:14] <Keybuk> no
[10:14] <ogra> but ?
[10:14] <Keybuk> the ltspfs package could just ship that
[10:14] <ogra> ah
[10:14] <Keybuk> or, tbh, I'd probably just ship it in the udev package
[10:14] <ogra> no need to mknod ?
[10:14] <Keybuk> what's the major/minor ?
[10:14] <Keybuk> well, it does the mknod in debian/rules
[10:14] <ogra> crw-rw---- 1 root fuse 10, 229 2006-08-07 19:18 /dev/fuse
[10:15] <ogra> (the group is important)
[10:15] <Keybuk> the group is not possible, I'm afraid
[10:15] <ogra> hmm
[10:15] <Keybuk> if it's shipped in a package, it'll have to be root:root until udev's init script runs
[10:15] <Keybuk> it may be that #1 is your only solution then
[10:16] <ogra> hmm
[10:16] <ogra> echo "fuse" >> /etc/modules
[10:16] <ogra> :P
[10:16] <Keybuk> yup
[10:16] <ogra> ugly
[10:17] <ogra> but if there is no way around ... *shrug*
[10:18] <Keybuk> it's in a class of modules we haven't got a perfect solution for yet
[10:18] <Keybuk> drivers without hardware
[10:18] <ogra> yep
[10:19] <Keybuk> you want it loaded if you want it
[10:19] <Keybuk> usually it just makes sense to load them with modprobe when necessary
[10:19] <Keybuk> but when the device needs to be used by !root, that's a problem
[10:20] <Keybuk> we vaguely chatted once about making modprobe setuid root, and then having it decide whether the real user could load that module or not
[10:20] <ogra> well, fuse is exactly for userspace only, as the name implies :)
[10:20] <Keybuk> but I suspect that's the kind of thing that makes pitti soil his underwear
[10:20] <ogra> hehe
[10:20] <ogra> i'm fine for now with /etc/modules its just sad we cant do it dynamically ...
[10:21] <ogra> and i think in hotplug times it was loaded dynamically, but i might be wrong
[10:21] <pitti> Keybuk: are there more examples where calling modprobe would make sense (which are not just bugs)?
[10:21] <ogra> the fuse utils package used to ship a script
[10:21] <Keybuk> pitti: ppp
[10:21] <Keybuk> pitti: loop
[10:21] <ogra> pitti, pppoe ?
[10:22] <Keybuk> pitti: tun
[10:22] <pitti> Keybuk: ok, ppp makes sense, but loop?
[10:22] <Keybuk> pitti: mount should be able to "modprobe loop" if it's in fstab and user
[10:22] <ogra> loop is autoloaded
[10:22] <pitti> users can't setup loop devices without root power anyway
[10:22] <Keybuk> but can't
[10:22] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, ok
[10:22] <Keybuk> ogra: only because we have a static device in /dev copied in by init
[10:22] <ogra> if i mount -o loop i have no complaints here
[10:22] <ogra> aha 
[10:22] <ogra> !
[10:23] <pitti> is there any way to conditionally build a target in Makefile.am based on a config.h variable? (i. e. the presence/absence of a library detected by configure)
[10:24] <Keybuk> if VARIABLE
[10:24] <Keybuk> ...
[10:24] <Keybuk> endif
[10:24] <pitti> oh, wow, magic :)
[10:24] <pitti> Keybuk: thanks
[10:24] <Keybuk> (must be defined in configure.ac by AM_CONDITIONAL
[10:24] <Keybuk> usually you do something like AM_CONDITIONAL(VARIABLE, test x$ac_variable = xtrue) or something
[10:25] <Keybuk> there's an example in the info page
[10:27] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/automake/automake_106.html
[10:27] <ogra> and i wonder why i dont get my mounts right *sigh*
[10:32] <ogra> the fact that dash doesnt know about $UID is rather impressing :)
[10:33] <pitti> ogra: id -un ?
[10:33] <ogra> i've put UID=$(id -u) at the top, yes :)
[10:34] <ogra> but still, thats a variable i'd have expected in any shell :)
[10:34] <pitti> ogra: better not rely on it :)
[10:34] <ogra> yeah, seems like
[10:34] <pitti> ogra: otherwise I could do nasty things with export UID=0 or so :)
[10:34] <StevenK> pitti: export UID=-1
[10:34] <ogra> oh, i dont use it for anything critical ... just for a directory name
[10:35] <pitti> StevenK: what's -1, super-root? :)
[10:35] <ogra> reverse root :)
[10:35] <StevenK> pitti: UID's are unsigned, it'd be fun watching stuff blow up.
[10:35] <ogra> toor :)
[10:35] <pitti> StevenK: ah, might wrap to nobody then (65535?)
[10:36] <StevenK> Hey, that's a point.
[10:36] <pitti> well, that would be -2
[10:36] <StevenK> steven@liquified:~% id -- -2
[10:36] <StevenK> id: -2: No such user
[10:37] <Keybuk> ogra: mtab and mounts aren't equivalent
[10:37] <ogra> Keybuk, in ltsp-clients they are (read only filesystem, i need to know what the kernel thinks is mounted)
[10:38] <Keybuk> ogra: why not just use /proc/mounts directly then?
[10:38] <ogra> Keybuk, because apps look in mtab ...
[10:38] <ogra> its fine with the link
[10:38] <Keybuk> ok
[10:38] <ogra> debian just removed it and made mtab a static readonly file
[10:38] <Keybuk> mounts is missing mount options though, no?
[10:38] <ogra> which doesnt help much for local device support :)
[10:39] <Keybuk> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/000095399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_05_03
[10:39] <Keybuk> ^ doesn't specify UID as a shell-set parameter
[10:39] <Keybuk> so $UID is a bashism
[10:39] <StevenK> Doesn't help that zsh also seems to have it.
[10:39] <ogra> well, fstab is a writeable file ... and devices i plug in use it ... so i have the options there 
[10:40] <ogra> and i call mount directly as mount -o sync ... anyway ...
[10:40] <ogra> no extra options needed :)
[10:45] <jono> hi all
[10:46] <sabdfl> hey jono
[10:46] <jono> heya sabdfl
[10:46] <jono> sabdfl, hows things this morning?
[10:46] <sabdfl> excellent, am en route to cambridge for a bit of supercomputer action
[10:46] <sabdfl> always makes for a fun day
[10:46] <jono> :)
[10:47] <jsgotangco> nice
[10:47] <StevenK> sabdfl: Ubuntu CDs packed? :-P
[10:47] <Hobbsee> hi sabdfl 
[10:47] <sabdfl> hi StevenK, Hobbsee
[10:47] <ajmitch> sounds like a fun day
[10:47] <pitti> sabdfl: woohoo, enjoy the big irons :)
[10:47] <Hobbsee> StevenK: ah.  thanks for reminding me what i was going to grab some of from pia.
[10:47] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: ran out already?
[10:47] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: only had one :P
[10:55] <Hobbsee> grr.  that's three hard lockups in two days, and i've got absolutely no idea why.  *grumble*
[10:55] <Treenaks> Hobbsee: nvidia/ati drivers?
[10:56] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Heat?
[10:56] <Hobbsee> Treenaks: neither.  plain intel card
[10:56] <StevenK> Hobbsee: I've pointed out the fan in those laptops are worthless.
[10:56] <Hobbsee> true
[10:56] <Hobbsee> it doesnt seem that hot
[10:57] <StevenK> The outside case doesn't.
[10:57] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Have you ever thought to check the CPU temperature?
[10:57] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: a long time ago.  should check that again
[10:57] <StevenK> That's no indication that the CPU isn't molten.
[10:57] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: you're still using that horribly broken fan?
[10:57] <jono> hey Gman 
[10:58] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: yeah
[10:58] <Gman> hey jono
[10:58] <Gman> how goes it?
[10:58] <jono> Gman, good thanks, you?
[10:58] <StevenK> Hobbsee: I suspect that the fan has gotten a little worse.
[10:59] <Gman> jono, not bad - other than living in a leaky home :(
[10:59] <Hobbsee> StevenK: quite possibly
[10:59] <ajmitch> I suspect that the only way it can get worse than what it is, is to stop altogether
[10:59] <StevenK> ajmitch: It may be spinning a little slower and expelling less heat.
[10:59] <jono> Gman, ugh :(
[11:22] <kagou> hi
[11:35] <iwj> mvo: re 19834: Yes, fine.
[11:36] <mvo> iwj: thanks
[11:37] <iwj> I see you closed it already.
[11:41] <mvo> iwj: yes, my reasoning was that it can always be reopened (and that I didn't want to forget about it)
[11:42] <iwj> :-)
[12:05] <jdub> elmo, Znarl, Spads: ping
[12:06] <Znarl> jdub : Pong?
[12:07] <jdub> Znarl: am i going to get {people,humboldt}.ubuntu.com love back at any point?
[12:10] <elmo> jdub: people, not any time in the immediate future.  humboldt hasn't been changed
[12:13] <elmo> jdub: (people still requires chinstrap -> employees only - that may/should be fixed, but it's not in the short term TODO)
[12:14] <jdub> elmo: could planet be moved to another machine maybe?
[12:16] <jdub> elmo: perhaps you could remove the {Packages,Sources}* files from my public_html/* on people? i don't want people thinking those are maintained if i can't maintain them
[12:22] <mdke> jdub: got a moment?
[12:23] <jdub> sure
[12:23] <mdke> cool
[12:29] <elmo> jdub: planet isn't on people?
[12:30] <jdub> elmo: planet is on humboldt
[12:30] <elmo> jdub: yes. so why do you want it moved?
[12:34] <jdub> elmo: 'cos i don't have access, and i thought non-employees couldn't get to humboldt
[12:34] <elmo> jdub: your account hasn't been locked on humboldt, it's not part of the LAN and doesn't require chinstrap access to reach it
[12:34] <elmo> jdub: that's what I meant by "humboldt hasn't been changed" - sorry if I wasn't clear
[12:35] <jdub> elmo: i'm locked out though :)
[12:35] <jdub> no ssh key love and no password
[12:36] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: hi
[12:36] <elmo> jdub: I can't even see you trying to login - are you sure you're not still trying to proxy through chinstrap?
[12:37] <Gloubiboulga> janimo, hello
[12:37] <elmo> jdub: (and it might be better to take this to #canonical-sysadmin)
[12:38] <jdub> elmo: ok, sorted, i hadn't killed the chinstrap config on this machine
[12:38] <jdub> thanks
[12:54] <janimo> mvo: hi I talked to glatzor and he said the remaining gtkhtml use in g-a-i can be replaced with a simpler html parser (he said beautiful-soup)
[12:55] <janimo> would you agree to getting this last I think gnome dependency out, and solve the gconf one as with update-manager?
[12:59] <mvo> janimo: yes, that sounds good. I need to check the gtkhtml solution though first
[01:05] <janimo> mvo: sure, thanks, let's see what glatzor has to say, he said he had to check this out it more detail first
[01:34] <ogra> seb128, i have a small problem, i have a script that adds a link to the desktop ... th elink doesnt appear on the users desktop, but if i open a nautilus window i see it appearing/vanishing dynamically
[01:35] <ogra> any idea why the desktop itself isnt updated ? 
[01:54] <jdub> mdz: ping
[02:02] <ogra> pitti, how does g-v-m know there was a CD inserted ? seem there is no kernel event or something i could catch with udev 
[02:02] <ogra> is that hal ?
[02:02] <mjr> I think that's hal's business, yes
[02:03] <ogra> damned
[02:03] <ogra> where does hal get the event then ?
[02:04] <ogra> i need a trigger that doesnt involve installing half of the desktop innings into the thin client ...
[02:04] <janimo> ogra, udevmonitor
[02:04] <janimo> if you don;t want hal
[02:04] <ogra> janimo, YAY, thanks !
[02:04] <janimo> hal gets it from udev
[02:05] <janimo> ogra: welcome :)
[02:05] <ogra> hmm, no events for CDRoms ...
[02:06] <ogra> must get it somewhere else
[02:09] <janimo> ogra: indeed, only lshal -m show cdrom events...
[02:09] <ogra> yep
[02:09] <ogra> but where does it get them ?
[02:09] <janimo> dunno
[02:10] <ogra> hmm, intresting ... NM spills an entry into syslog for *every* device thats added or removed
[02:11] <ogra> how noisy
[02:14] <pitti> ogra: yes, hal polls for CDs periodically
[02:15] <pitti> ogra: there's no other possibility than polling unfortunately
[02:15] <ogra> what exactly does it poll ? 
[02:16] <ogra> i'm fine adding a "while true; do ... ; done" script for the client ... but adding the complete hal will kill my memory 
[02:16] <pitti> ogra: check hald/linux2/addons/addon-storage.c
[02:16] <pitti> ogra: that's the backend responsible for cd polling
[02:16] <ogra> thanks !
[02:16] <ogra> thats what i'm looking for
[02:17] <pitti> ogra: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/cdcaps.py
[02:17] <pitti> ogra: essentially, you need to do fcntl.ioctl(f, CDROM.CDROM_DISC_STATUS, 0) periodically
[02:17] <pitti> and test the bits which indicate that a CD is present
[02:17] <ogra> wow, that script is sexy :)
[02:18] <pitti> ogra: check addon-storage.c how hal tests it
[02:18] <pitti> drive = ioctl (fd, CDROM_DRIVE_STATUS, CDSL_CURRENT);
[02:18] <pitti> CDS_DISC_OK -> there is a CD-ROM, otherwise there's not
[02:18] <ogra> i think i'll redo all my stuff in python looks way more elegant than the shellscripts i have :)
[02:19] <ogra> ok
[02:19] <ogra> i'll play with it a bit
[02:19] <pitti> ogra: heh, indeed I slowly got used to writing stuff in python right from the start
[02:19] <pitti> as opposed to developing complex shell scripts and rewriting them later :)
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: if you want shell, you can do 'perl -e' magic, though
[02:20] <pitti> ogra: check powerpc's pmi for an example how to do ioctl's in combined perl/shell
[02:20] <ogra> well, there would have been tons of system() calls in the beginning ... if i write such scripts that poll most data from other tools i'm better off with shell
[02:21] <ogra> but usually while i start dropping the subshell ugliness i could as well replace it with python :)
[02:21] <pitti> well, OTOH you wouldn't want to spawn a perl/python interpreter *every three seconds* from a shell script
[02:21] <pitti> ogra: so, either a small C program or completely perl/python, I'd say
[02:22] <ogra> python is it :)
[02:22] <pitti> ogra: and please use subprocess.{call,Popen} instead of system :)
[02:22] <ogra> i already started rewriting the bits on the session side ... 
[02:22] <ogra> pitti, for testing i usually use VAR=$(ls -l) in shell :)
[02:23] <ogra> and usually my first iteration of a script is crowded with that 
[02:23] <ogra> :)
[02:28] <seb128> ogra: nop, but nautilus has some notification issues that should be fixed with the update coming today
[02:29] <ogra> shawarma, k 
[02:29] <ogra> err
[02:29] <ogra> ah, k
[02:29] <ogra> funnily if i touch/rm a file manually all is fine ...
[02:36] <pitti> G0SUB: hm, can you please commit the latest stuff into bzr? I didn't find any CLI frontend, nor any test suites in the currently pushed version
[03:50] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:50] <bddebian> THANKS KEYBUK!
[03:54] <Keybuk> no worries
[04:08] <bddebian> Keybuk: Do you have an opinion on squashfs?  I haven't gotten any feedback on ML or IRC.
[04:08] <ajmitch> bddebian: mdz said upload it, livefs builds use dapper's squashfs
[04:08] <bddebian> I know but I'm scared :-)
[04:09] <Keybuk> what's the change?
[04:09] <bddebian> ajmitch: Hi BTW :-)
[04:09] <bddebian> Keybuk: Build-dep linux-headers-2.6.17-5 instead of 2.6.17-1-all
[04:12] <Keybuk> seems fair
[04:20] <Hobbsee> ah.
[04:20] <Hobbsee> Errors were encountered while processing:
[04:20] <Hobbsee>  /home/buildd/build-235140-269468/chroot-autobuild/var/cache/apt/archives/xinit_1.0.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
[04:20] <ajmitch> yes, he uploaded -0ubuntu2 
[04:21] <StevenK> Because X is borked?
[04:21] <Hobbsee> dpkg: error processing /home/buildd/build-235140-269468/chroot-autobuild/var/cache/apt/archives/xinit_1.0.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb (--unpack):
[04:21] <Hobbsee>  trying to overwrite `/usr/share/man/man5/Xsession.5.gz', which is also in package x11-common
[04:21] <Hobbsee> ah
[04:21] <ogra> fixed two uploads ago
[04:21] <Hobbsee> right
[04:22] <StevenK> So now we just wait for the buildds to be fixed and beg infinity for a mass give-back?
[04:36] <Micksa> hi!!!
[04:36] <Micksa> I have an excuse to be here :)
[04:37] <Micksa> How do I create the initramfs for casper from its sources?
[04:44] <Micksa> aw, someone tell me
[04:44] <Micksa> this is torture
[04:44] <Micksa> I'm reading shell scripts
[04:44] <mdke> Micksa: you might have more luck asking in the support channel, I suppose, or searching the documentation wiki, if no one answers in here
[05:07] <Riddell> jono: congrats
[05:07] <jono> cheers Riddell :)
[05:07] <Riddell> (since it seems to be public now)
[05:07] <ajmitch> jono: so you're our new master?
[05:08] <jono> ajmitch, hah! :)
[05:08] <jono> yeah, MArk was holding off for an announcement
[05:08] <jono> he picked the worst possible picture too :)
[05:08] <ajmitch> I just saw it pop up on mugshot :)
[05:08] <zul> jono: so i can bug you now heh heh..
[05:08] <pitti> hey jono, welcome!
[05:08] <mdke> welcome jono
[05:08] <jono> sure, feel free to bug me guys :)
[05:09] <jono> thanks pitti mdke :)
[05:09] <tseng> wait what?
[05:09] <ajmitch> tseng: see planet ubuntu
[05:09] <tseng> did jono get that community leader thing
[05:09] <ajmitch> he did
[05:10] <tseng> man
[05:10] <tseng> he'll be all up in my face now
[05:10] <jono> heh
[05:13] <jdub> jono: :-)
[05:13] <Burgwork> morning jdub, jono 
[05:13] <jono> hey Burgwork 
[05:13] <jono> jdub, :)
[05:16] <jdub> jono: walking out the door, i was a bit disappointed that we'd missed the opportunity to work together :)
[05:16] <jono> jdub, yeah, I wish we could have worked together too :)
[05:17] <jono> jdub, maybe one day :)
[05:18] <Burgwork> jono, are you the new community manager for Canonical?
[05:18] <jdub> jono: at least paul won't be stuck with the usual "jono's boss" crap anymore
[05:18] <jdub> jono: oh - perfect
[05:18] <jdub> jono: sabdfl == "jono's boss"
[05:18] <jono> Burgwork, yeah
[05:18] <jono> jdub, hehe
[05:18] <jdub> jono: or do you report to jane?
[05:18] <Burgwork> jono, congrats! you coming to LWE SF?
[05:18] <jono> jdub, no, to Mark
[05:19] <jdub> ah well, sure you'll fix that soon enough
[05:19] <jono> Burgwork, thanks, I wish I could, but no :(
[05:19] <jono> jdub, :)
[05:19] <jdub> in the mean time, we can call him "jono's boss"
[05:19] <jono> hehe
[05:19] <jono> I smell revenge here..
[05:19] <jdub> gotta make up for paul's pain somehow
[05:19] <jdub> circle of life and all
[05:20] <jono> heh, but Paul is going to be a GNOME god afte rGUADEC2007
[05:20] <jono> its gonna be awesome :)
[05:21] <jdub> yeah, b'ham is going to rock
[05:21] <jono> no beach party though :(
[05:22] <jono> skinny dipping in the birmingham canal would be painful
[05:22] <mjg59> But real beer
[05:23] <jdub> *riowr*
[05:23] <thom> jono: hire a hall and ship in sand
[05:23] <thom> sorted.
[05:23] <jono> thom, :P
[05:37] <tseng> jono: technical people are notably left out of your enumeration of community areas
[05:38] <jono> tseng, thats only one aspect of what I will be doing
[05:38] <jono> tseng, of course my work will  include technical teams :)
[05:38] <tseng> ok, I don't much care personally
[05:39] <jono> tseng, and if you have suggestions for ways in which to improve the community with regards to technical teams, let me know :)
[05:39] <tseng> but its a key point of entry
[05:39] <jono> sure :)
[05:40] <Burgwork> jono, as part of your new job, I would like you to look at HelpingUbuntu, with an eye towards moving it to /community/participate on the website. I need some good critical feedback on it
[05:40] <tseng> I am a pretty bad person to ask about joining ubuntu  seeing as I've been here since before there was a name
[05:40] <jono> Burgwork, sure :)
[05:41] <jono> Burgwork, could you ping me in a few weeks about it when I am up and running?
[05:41] <jono> tseng, sure, but its not just about joining the community, but how the community works :)
[05:41] <Burgwork> jono, sure, but I was trying to push myself to finish it and get it live
[05:41] <zul> tseng: you're special :)
[05:41] <tseng> zul: hah not really.
[05:41] <jono> Burgwork, ok, I will have a look tomorrow if that is cool - need to finish up some stuff right now
[05:42] <jono> Burgwork, could you mail me a jono AT jonobacon DOT org about it
[05:42] <Burgwork> jono, no, do it now! ;)
[05:42] <jono> :P
[05:43] <bddebian> Hello again nalioth :-)
[05:44] <nalioth> bddebian: yes, thank you.  (no thanks to my ignorant ISP, tho)
[05:45] <dholbach> jono: else Burgwork will write angry blog entries :-P
[05:45] <Burgwork> dholbach, very angry blog entries. Filled with much gnashing of teeth :)
[05:46] <jono> :P
[05:46] <Burgwork> all about how the powers that be are ignoring poor pitiful volunteer me
[05:47] <dholbach> Burgwork: as i said.... I'm not sure that angry blog entries help much
[05:47] <zul> Burgwork: the usual fire and brimstone?
[05:57] <Burgwork> zul, absolutely
[06:05] <Chipzz> sorry for the off-topic question, but does anyone know wth this could mean?
[06:05] <Chipzz> getpeername(0, 0xbfcd2610, [16] )        = -1 ENOTSOCK (Socket operation on non-socket)
[06:05] <Lathiat_> assumedly it means the the file descripter passed to getpeername is not a socket
[06:06] <Lathiat_> which that it is the first argument
[06:06] <Lathiat_> which is 0
[06:06] <azeem> is 0 a valid file descriptor/socket name?
[06:06] <Chipzz> fd 16?
[06:06] <Lathiat_> your most certainly tryign to pass NULL incorrectly
[06:06] <Chipzz> I have absolutely no idea
[06:06] <Lathiat_> apt-get install manpages-dev
[06:06] <Lathiat_> man getpeername
[06:07] <Chipzz> hrrm
[06:07] <mjr> azeem, it tends to be stdin (though just by convention :]  )
[06:08] <azeem> ah, right
[06:08] <Chipzz> this makes no sense
[06:15] <wasabi_> Hey, what's up with Pulse?
[06:15] <wasabi_> It packaged?
[06:20] <Chipzz> ah ok
[06:20] <Chipzz> this binary is supposed to run from inetd
[06:21] <Chipzz> starting to make sense now
[06:21] <G0SUB> pitti: yes, they are done here. I am yet to commit.
[06:22] <mjr> Chipzz, yes, that would
[06:28] <mdz> jdub: pong
[06:28] <mvo> infinity: could you please kick the gksu build?
[06:28] <jdub> mdz: can you look at an rrdtool upgrade for me?
[06:29] <mdz> jdub: perhaps
[06:29] <jdub> deb-src http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/ubuntu/edgy/ /
[06:32] <infinity> mvo: I just (ie: 2 minutes ago) did a mass give-back.
[06:32] <infinity> mvo: So it'll get kicked with everything else in about 15 mins.
[06:32] <mvo> infinity: ah, cool. thanks
[06:33] <jdub> mdz: some of the bindings don't have dependencies, so was difficult to seriously test it ;)
[06:39] <quail> hello
[06:42] <wasabi_> We used ot have polypaudio packages. Those seem to have vanished. jdub? Done Pulse packages?
[06:42] <pitti> wasabi_: we removed them when polypaudio was abandoned upstream and too buggy
[06:42] <wasabi_> Hmm. There a current plan? Me and a friend are experimenting with it.
[06:43] <wasabi_> Finding it quite awesome. ;)
[06:43] <pitti> well, personally I don't care about it :)
[06:43] <pitti> we use ALSA by default now, and I do not wish to reintroduce a mixing daemon by default
[06:43] <wasabi_> Going at it from an angle of adding a BT headset at runtime, and moving streams over to it on the fly.
[06:43] <pitti> which of course does not mean that it shouldn't be packaged
[06:44] <wasabi_> Or plugging a laptop into a docking station, and on plugin, changing the default output to a different audio device, etc.
[06:44] <wasabi_> He's working with voip calls, basically.
[06:44] <mdz> jdub: if you email me a diff I'm less likely to forget
[06:44] <jdub> wasabi_: yeah, just haven't had time to finish them
[06:44] <sladen> pitti: the stuff Fabian (FreeNX) has been working on routes /dev/dsp via 'esd'
[06:44] <jdub> wasabi_: pulse is definitely the way to go though, none of this dmix crap :)
[06:45] <wasabi_> Yeah. I agree. 100%. I've been running the entire stack through my head the last few days.
[06:45] <wasabi_> We have devices which won't even show in Alsa, actually.
[06:45] <wasabi_> user mode blue tooth devices, for instance.
[06:45] <jdub> wasabi_: we had a great meeting at guadec about The Future
[06:45] <wasabi_> Not to mention the zeroconf stuff.
[06:45] <wasabi_> Wish I could have come. =(
[06:45] <wasabi_> I'm all about The Future!
[06:46] <wasabi_> I've a few things I'd like to investigate, which might make people squimish, with regards to pulse. A gstreamer source module for it. :)
[06:46] <jdub> nup, makes total sense - doesn't the current gstreamer plugin have a source?
[06:47] <wasabi_> Well, it ships raw pcm across process. One idea is to ship the encoded audio to PA.
[06:47] <wasabi_> And have PA run it's own pipeline internally to do the decoding.
[06:47] <wasabi_> From the n770 angle.
[06:47] <wasabi_> (they already do such with a dedicated gstreamer daemon)
[06:48] <wasabi_> fun stuff. =)
[06:48] <jdub> oh right
[06:48] <jdub> yes, that was one of the difficult parts of the discussion at guadec
[06:49] <jdub> particularly useful for airtunes or thin client use cases
[06:49] <wasabi_> src ! demux ! decodebin ! pulsesink
[06:49] <wasabi_> pulsesink would detect a gstreamer enabled pulse, which would advertise it's caps.
[06:49] <wasabi_> pulsesink then would tell decodebin it could accept actual ogg.
[06:50] <wasabi_> decodebin would be like "oh hey, I don't have to do anything!"
[06:50] <wasabi_> ogg would go to pa process, pipeline is built over there to decode ogg.
[06:50] <jdub> sell mezcalero on it :)
[06:50] <wasabi_> Yeah.
[06:50] <wasabi_> He reminded me that PA is GPL and some gstreamer mods are not. :0
[06:51] <wasabi_> interesting stuff anyways.
[06:51] <jdub> hrm, yeah, that's problematic
[06:51] <wasabi_> Well, PA could restrict itself to GPL compat elements.
[06:51] <wasabi_> white list.
[06:51] <wasabi_> Only advertise the caps of those elements, etc.
[06:52] <wasabi_> That's solvable, just annoying.
[06:52] <wasabi_> Then the same idea pops up for a "video server", like PA.
[06:52] <wasabi_> Another thing which Maemo deals with.
[06:52] <wasabi_> anyways. Just wondering if there are packages to easy my efforts.
[06:53] <dholbach> am I on crack or did the font display in the console (ctrl-alt-f1) get much cleaner?
[06:53] <cr3> anyone happen to know of a workaround for the problem where the screen blanks during install on a machine with an i810 based video controller?
[06:54] <Keybuk> man, DVD Authoring on Linux is *hard*
[06:55] <pygi> Keybuk, not for long ^
[06:55] <ogra> Keybuk, i think pygi has a program 
[06:55] <ogra> :)
[06:55] <pygi> ergh, knew it :)
[06:55] <ogra> hehe
[06:55] <Keybuk> pygi: oh aye?
[06:56] <ogra> pitti, is there a reason we dont have "dev.cdrom.lock=0" in sysctl.conf ? 
[06:56] <pygi> Keybuk, the part that you want will be here and will be higly usable, but is in no usable condition for now ^_^
[06:56] <Keybuk> the main problem is getting the encoding right
[06:57] <ogra> pygi, my mind is like a big dusty chaotic storage ;)
[06:57] <pygi> ogra, weee :)
[06:57] <Keybuk> the one I just wrote was ok, but not perfect ... in particular it had to pad in an extra frame
[06:58] <pygi> Keybuk, so no worries....it'll be easy one day ^_3
[06:58] <pygi> ^_^
[06:58] <Burgwork> pygi, release early, release often
[06:59] <pygi> Burgwork, ofcourse ^_^
[06:59] <pygi> and usable, if appliable :)
[06:59] <Keybuk> release before I've got sick of doing it manually
[06:59] <Keybuk> and written my own

[06:59] <ogra> heh
[07:00] <pygi> Keybuk, how much time do I have?
[07:00] <pygi> I am currently messing with libburn, so I can't make any promises ^_^
[07:01] <Keybuk> libburn?
[07:01] <Keybuk> you're not just shelling out to the existing tools?
[07:01] <ogra> libburn is the future :)
[07:02] <Keybuk> let me guess, you send the movie over d-bus? :p
[07:02] <pygi> ogra, let's hope so ^_^
[07:02] <ogra> lol
[07:02] <ogra> in messages ? 
[07:02] <pygi> Keybuk, ofcourse, you have any other idea? that seemed the best last time I checked :)
[07:04] <Keybuk> ...so, TIOCSCTTY did very bad things to X
[07:04] <pygi> ogra, as soon as 3 critical features (for now) are implemented, I'll consider libburn taken it's first step to the future :)
[07:04] <ogra> :)
[07:05] <pygi> which would be -tao, multi-session, and dvd support ^_^
[07:07] <pygi> and a couple of annoying bugs ^_^
[07:07] <Keybuk> mjg59: around?
[07:07] <zul> he was around earlier
[07:11] <mjg59> Keybuk: hi
[07:12] <Keybuk> mjg59: do you know much about terminal handling on Linux?
[07:12] <mjg59> Not realy
[07:12] <Keybuk> no, me neither ... I figured you might having played with usplash
[07:13] <Keybuk> I managed to get it to do things I've seen both usplash and acpi-support do
[07:13] <Keybuk> (active terminal gets nothing but \n)
[07:16] <Surak> BenC: ping
[07:21] <BenC> Surak: pong
[07:22] <Surak> Benc: (in regard of bug #55104 ): the option for disabling video (or changing vga priority) on setup of all i865-based MSI boards fails.
[07:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55104 in linux-source-2.6.15 "panic/lock/restart on dapper-amd64 if there's intel integrated video AND a nvidia card at the same time" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/55104
[07:23] <BenC> Surak: We wont be implementing that script workaround
[07:23] <BenC> Surak: I'm not sure what the best fix is, but it needs to not crash in cases like yours
[07:23] <BenC> proper thing would be to fail to setup DRM
[07:24] <Surak> Which would mean to blacklist intel-agp by default. 
[07:24] <BenC> no, that's not what it means
[07:24] <BenC> it means nvidia should fail to initialize in this case
[07:26] <Surak> by blacklisting intel-agp would disable DRI on intel boards, but would make X start on every case.
[07:29] <Surak> we could change the udev rule for intel-agp. It could call a script and verify if there's a nvidia board present, and then refuse to load. Is there any way to make a 'conditional' udev rule?
[07:29] <Keybuk> Surak: err, what are you trying to do?
[07:29] <mjg59> It's perfectly valid for intel-agp to be loaded when nvidia is
[07:30] <mjg59> There appears to be one specific case where there's a problem
[07:30] <Keybuk> this sounds like a driver bug to me
[07:31] <mjg59> And if you're not using the nvidia binary drivers, then there's nothing that'll ever touch intel-agp on that system
[07:31] <Surak> mjg59: yes, this is quite specific to i865 chipset and nvidia boards.
[07:32] <mjg59> So can we drop the idea of blacklisting and try to find out what the actual bug is?
[07:32] <mjg59> Firstly, if you blacklist the nvidia module, does it work?
[07:32] <Surak> mjg59: the problem is that when intel_agp is loaded, the machine will hang. I have three different mainboards which use this chipset and all of them hangs.
[07:32] <mjg59> Surak: No, that is not the problem
[07:32] <mjg59> Surak: The problem is that the machine hangs
[07:33] <mjg59> Surak: We need to determine /why/ that happens before we know how to fix the bug
[07:33] <Surak> let me try blacklisting nvidia.
[07:35] <Surak> 'll be back in a minute.
[07:51] <Surak> mjg59: blacklisting nvidia does not work. The machine still panics.
[07:52] <mjg59> Surak: Can you provide the panic?
[07:52] <Surak> I'll do this right away.
[07:53] <mjg59> Thanks
[08:20] <Surak> hum... not easy to take a kernel panic log, as / is mounted RO when /etc/rcS.d/S07linux-restricted-modules-common is run. Whatever, let me mount it rw before.
[08:50] <BenC> is lp down?
[08:51] <Burgwork> BenC, ubuntu.com appears to be down as well
[08:51] <Burgwork> strike that, very slow
[09:09] <Riddell> mjg59: do we have SetPowerSave in ubuntu's HAL?
[09:21] <mjg59> Riddell: Not sure
[09:24] <Riddell> mjg59: next question, do you know how g-p-m decides if it should run or not?
[09:27] <mjg59> It's started as part of the session
[09:31] <Surak> mjg59: I'm not being able to capture the crash. The system logs nothing. If I tell ksyslogd to start earlier, the only message in /var/log is a :"Aug 8 16:23:31 ubuntu syslogd 1.4.1#17ubuntu7: restart"
[09:32] <Riddell> mjg59: but presumably it doesn't run if you don't have power management?
[09:32] <Surak> As it restarts immediately, I can't even type it.
[09:34] <mjg59> Surak: It's likely that it never hits disk.
[09:35] <mjg59> Riddell: I don't believe there are any systems that don't have power management
[09:35] <Surak> mjg59: I forced mounting of / in rw mode, so syslog can write to /var/log. I don't have any serial console to log it. Do you have any other idea on how can I get this panic log?
[09:35] <mjg59> Surak: Pen and paper, I'm afraid
[09:36] <Surak> mjg59: I can't, because the panic shows for a very small time, and the machine immediately restarts. 
[09:36] <jdub> digital camera! attach the photo to a launchpad bug :)
[09:39] <Spads> doing flickr searches for like "kernel panic" are great
[09:39] <jdub> ha ha
[09:40] <jdub> uh
[09:40] <jdub> actually
[09:40] <jdub> the osx kernel panics are cool
[09:40] <jdub> http://flickr.com/photos/cryw/145375770/
[09:40] <jdub> bonus
[09:41] <jdub> uh, holy crap
[09:41] <jdub> an overwhelming number of the first page are osx panics
[09:42] <jdub> not sure what that speaks to most
[09:42] <jdub> flickr user profile?
[09:42] <jdub> osx stability?
[09:42] <jdub> deployment numbers?
[09:42] <Spads> user choice of tools?
[09:43] <Spads> it strikes me that OSX's touted demographic are more likely to have photo/video recording equipment near the monitor
[09:43] <jdub> yeah
[09:43] <jdub> also it is worth taking a photo of, really ;)
[09:43] <Spads> yeah, that's a gorgeous color scheme
[09:44] <Spads> it should have like the narita announcer track recorded in ROM and fed into dedicated chips driving the speakers
[09:44] <tseng> that would be horrific
[09:45] <jdub> when tseng says horrific, he means dope
[09:45] <tseng> I don't want my computer to talk
[09:46] <tseng> think of the translation issues
[09:46] <tseng> if you want a really concrete example of why its a bad idea
[09:46] <tseng> beyond OMG CRACK
[09:47] <Spads> they have four languages up there
[09:47] <Spads> that's why I was saying like the narita announcer girl
[09:47] <mc44> Just have them speak in Esperanto - no worries
[09:47] <Spads> it looks like the sort of plaquards you find in aeropuertinos
[09:47] <dmg> whois spads
[09:48] <tseng> dmg: someone with an unfortunate client config
[09:48] <Keybuk> jdub: it makes you wonder though ... if their system can do that much fancy shit, why is it PANICing in the first place?
[09:48] <Spads> and by unfortunate, tseng means dope
[09:48] <Keybuk> the entire point of a PANIC is that the kernel dare not do anything for fear of breaking the system
[09:48] <dmg> bah, wanted to see if there was a country associated with 'aeropuertinos'
[09:48] <tseng> by unfortunate, tseng means please fix your ircname:
[09:48] <tseng> with what your mother named you
[09:48] <Spads> dmg: no, I was just hoping that it would be mangled enough to be offensive in some language
[09:48] <Spads> tseng: that old hag?
[09:49] <Spads> and no, I don't want Rob Levin to find me.
[09:54] <Keybuk> zsh: segmentation fault (core dumped)  dd if=/dev/zero bs=4 count=1920
[09:54] <Keybuk> ...eerrr...
[09:55] <Spads> http://flickr.com/photos/cookiecrook/115108768/ <-- that's more like a kernel panic.  I think that other thing was closer to an oops
[09:56] <Burgwork> Spads, I like the last two comments
[09:57] <nixternal> heh, "it doesn't give you a choice"
[09:57] <nixternal> nice
[09:58] <Spads> I think he thought it was like a root window xterm type display
[10:00] <jdub> AHR!
[10:00] <jdub> 24" OF PURE IRSSI!
[10:00] <wasabi_> This line must be 1 cm long
[10:00] <jdub> high, you mean.
[10:01] <jdub> in fact
[10:01] <jdub> i think it is
[10:01] <jdub> BONUS!
[10:02] <pitti> jdub: size DOES matter? :)
[10:09] <Kamion> infinity: the usplash configuration failure in http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/edgy/edubuntu/latest/livecd-20060808-i386.out is a little odd. Is /proc not mounted?
[10:10] <Kamion> mjg59: that single <(...) in usplash.postinst has caused more failed installs than anything else in edgy in the last week, I think :(
[10:10] <Kamion> is there no way to reword that in POSIXese?
[10:10] <mjg59> Kamion: Not that I could work out
[10:10] <mjg59> It needs to convert something of the form
[10:10] <mjg59> 1024x768, 800x600, 640x480
[10:10] <mjg59> to
[10:10] <mjg59> x=1024; y=768
[10:11] <mjg59> without picking up any of the later stuff
[10:11] <Kamion> eval `sed script`
[10:11] <Kamion> ?
[10:12] <mjg59> Yeah. Sounded ugly, though.
[10:12] <Kamion> at this point the bashism seems more ugly
[10:12] <mjg59> I'd sort of expected systems to actually work :)
[10:12] <Kamion> well, not because it's a bashism
[10:12] <mjg59> I can do it cleanly in zsh
[10:12] <Kamion> surprising that even our buildds don't seem to have it though - that suggests very little else is using /dev/fd
[10:12] <mjg59> But I don't think that's a great answer either
[10:12] <mjg59> Yes
[10:13] <mjg59> I seem to remember that there's at least one other package that can be expected to break
[10:14] <Amaranth> mjg59: Hey, latest usplash at least doesn't die with "screen init failed" but I get garbage on the screen. Blue and green vertical lines.
[10:14] <jdub> hrm, why does ubuntu-desktop depend on linux-headers-686 (specifically 686)?
[10:16] <tseng> jdub: so kids can build their own network driver
[10:16] <tseng> oh
[10:16] <tseng> good question
[10:17] <jdub> Kamion: possibly one for you, seed master
[10:17] <jdub> (haw haw)
[10:17] <tseng> it was mdz's add
[10:21] <Kamion> mjg59: hang on, isn't this really easy?
[10:21] <Kamion> x="$(echo "$RET" | cut -d, -f1 | cut -dx -f1)"
[10:21] <Kamion> y="$(echo "$RET" | cut -d, -f1 | cut -dx -f2)"
[10:22] <Kamion> ok, so it's a few more processes, but no big deal in a postinst
[10:22] <Kamion> jdub: as tseng says, mdz explicitly added it
[10:22] <Kamion> jdub: you can bzr log the seeds
[10:23] <Kamion> and it's -686 because it was moved over verbatim from the ship seed
[10:23] <Kamion> or ship-live actually
[10:30] <mdz> jdub: because -686 is the kernel that folks will get by default installing from the edgy desktop CD
[10:31] <jdub> mdz: and we don't have linux-headers to depend on?
[10:31] <mdz> jdub: no, we don't
[10:31] <jdub> bum
[10:31] <mdz> we could, but I'm not sure I see what that would buy us
[10:31] <jdub> not having -k7 and -686 installed at the same time
[10:31] <mdz> apt isn't smart enough to give you linux-headers-somethingelse when you have that kernel
[10:31] <jdub> but that's just being anal
[10:32] <mdz> I'm not entirely convinced that we need -k7
[10:32] <jdub> that'd be a fine solution too ;)
[10:32] <mdz> we'll find out real quick
[10:32] <mdz> since -686 will be the boot kernel on the desktop CD
[10:32] <jdub> of course, not shipping all this crap would be sweeter ;-)
[10:32] <jdub> oh, going 686 - nice
[10:32] <mdz> jdub: ;-D
[10:33] <jdub> i wonder what the reception would have been if we'd shipped 686 by default in warty
[10:33] <jdub> the only really sucky things are geodes and cyrix stuff, right?
[10:34] <mdz> jdub: you'll get over it
[10:34] <mdz> and thousands of users will thank us
[10:34] <jdub> thousands of ex gentoo users will thank us
[10:34] <jdub> you're just trying to drain gentoo again man
[10:34] <jdub> "Use Ubuntu: Because Now You Can Bang Two *Smaller* Rocks Together!"
[10:34] <mdz> thousands of people who need drivers to make their system work will thank us
[10:35] <jdub> ;-)
[10:35] <mdz> that's the only use case
[10:35] <mdz> I went over this in some detail on the mailing list
[10:35] <mdz> it is not about compiling anything else; in fact you *can't* compile much else with that environment
[10:35] <jdub> yeah
[10:35] <jdub> i noticed it's very minimal
[10:36] <jdub> but i still think it's misdirected
[10:36] <mdz> being able to build drivers on the live CD is huge
[10:36] <jdub> it's huge for a tiny portion of users :-)
[10:36] <mdz> I think it's worse than you think
[10:36] <jdub> well
[10:36] <jdub> i know it's bad
[10:36] <jdub> but i also know what users do
[10:36] <jdub> "Hrm, back to OS X!"
[10:37] <mdz> I am not interested in that argument-by-recto-cranial-inversion
[10:37] <jdub> we're saving maybe 0.5% of users from that fate
[10:38] <jdub> well you need a recto-cranial-inversion to remember what it's like to be a normal user :)
[10:38] <jdub> seriously, what is my mum going to do with gcc and non-working wifi?
[10:38] <mdz> the users we have who are 'normal' are a minority
[10:38] <mdz> the rest are early adopters
[10:38] <jdub> she doesn't even know what kind of network card it is
[10:39] <mdz> your mum neither knows nor cares
[10:39] <jdub> or which stinky dungeon website she's going to find some source in
[10:39] <mdz> this doesn't solve your mum's problem
[10:39] <mdz> but it also costs her nothing
[10:39] <mdz> she will not even notice the difference
[10:39] <mdz> so she is irrelevant
[10:39] <jdub> okay, so if we put her out of the picture
[10:39] <mdz> so we have two types of users to consider
[10:39] <jdub> we're helping a tiny percentage of users who will understand this stuff and have the desire to bang two rocks together
[10:39] <mdz> users who need this in order to follow a how-to and make their system work
[10:40] <mdz> and users who have a philosophical problem with compilers
[10:40] <mdz> I have no qualms about sacrificing the latter for the former
[10:40] <jdub> why can't that howto involve apt-get install gcc (given that it could be in a repo on the cd)?
[10:41] <mdz> dude, read the thread
[10:41] <mdz> I explained this a hundred times
[10:41] <jdub> i read the thread
[10:41] <jdub> well, i think i read it all
[10:41] <jdub> was this question raised?
[10:41] <mdz> apt-get install build-essential on a live CD blows
[10:41] <mdz> installing gcc just to remove it again is stupid
[10:41] <jdub> (sorry to turn a cheap gag into a discussion...)
[10:42] <jdub> well, once it's installed, it's installed and copied to the disk, right?
[10:42] <jdub> upon distro install
[10:42] <mdz> correct, and tada, the existing howtos which are, by the way, not written specifically for Ubuntu, magically work
[10:42] <mdz> they won't all say apt-get install gcc because most of the documentation which exists isn't Ubuntu-specific
[10:43] <mdz> and they sure as hell won't say apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r`
[10:43] <jdub> heh
[10:43] <mdz> this means that people can go to Intel's driver website, read the instructions, and fix their problem
[10:44] <Surak> jdub: no, it's not copied to the disk. This will prevent someone from screwing the live cd and installing a borked system.
[10:45] <mjg59> Why -686 as default?
[10:45] <mdz> jdub: oh, you meant the driver?  no, the driver won't be copied
[10:45] <jdub> mdz: (no, i meant after apt-get installing gcc on the livecd, it would be copied to the disk on distro install)
[10:45] <mdz> mjg59: because you need lots of RAM to boot the live CD, and if you do, you are very likely to have a 686 or better
[10:45] <jdub> mdz: (but then i realise that the non-modified dm is copied)
[10:46] <mdz> jdub: oh, that's not true either
[10:46] <mjg59> mdz: Is lots of RAM inherently true? It's required if you want to get the full gnome stack up, sure
[10:46] <mdz> jdub: that is, you're correct in your last comment
[10:46] <jdub> heh, yeah
[10:46] <mdz> mjg59: booting the desktop CD single-user is a pretty weird use case
[10:46] <mjg59> mdz: For install purposes, it wouldn't seem unreasonable
[10:46] <mjg59> We can bring up the installer without bringing up the entirity of gnome
[10:47] <mdz> the only installer on that CD is a pygtk program
[10:47] <mjg59> Yeah
[10:47] <mjg59> But that's still a pretty major saving in memory
[10:47] <jdub> mjg59: how would you do that? gfxboot option?
[10:47] <mjg59> jdub: Yes
[10:47] <mdz> ubiquity and its deps actually eat a lot of RAM, less than GNOME for sure, but you'd still need >64M
[10:48] <Surak> jdub: "no, i meant after apt-get installing gcc on the livecd" <- That won't happen
[10:48] <jdub> Surak: read above, it was all talke through
[10:48] <mjg59> mdz: 128MB was common in the Pentium II era, where all the alternative CPUs were 586 instruction set
[10:48] <Surak> jdub: oh
[10:49] <mjg59> mdz: Actually, can we check this from the hwdb results?
[10:49] <mdz> mjg59: to date, nobody has even noticed as a result of trying to use the CD
[10:49] <mdz> mjg59: we can, yes
[10:50] <mjg59> mdz: I don't think I have access to the data
[10:50] <mdz> mjg59: I don't seem to have a copy anymore, and I forget where it's moved to
[10:50] <mjg59> But it would be interesting to see how many machines there are with cpu family 5 and 128M of RAM
[10:50] <mjg59> Who's running it these days?
[10:50] <mdz> mjg59: I'd be willing to make a small wager on that
[10:51] <mjg59> mdz: Sure, it's going to be small, but it might be larger than you think
[10:51] <mdz> PS, the live environment doesn't boot in 128M
[10:51] <jdub> wager == boxer run at next summit you're both present at
[10:51] <elmo> mjg59: ogra
[10:51] <mdz> elmo: but hosted by us now, no?
[10:51] <mjg59> mdz: But that's because of Gnome, no?
[10:52] <mdz> mjg59: we can revisit this if you write a stripped-down installation environment and measure its memory requirements
[10:52] <mjg59> mdz: Sure. I'll have a play.
[10:52] <mdz> mjg59: but I expect that the set of machines which will be happy running installed GNOME vs. those which can boot that environment would be pretty small
[10:52] <mdz> and we provide Xubuntu for the low end
[10:53] <elmo> mdz: not yet
[10:53] <mjg59> mdz: I agree, but there's a definite set that could potentially be catered to
[10:53] <elmo> mdz: tho, I think (only since a couple of weeks) that's now blocked on us - I'll file something in RT so it gets done
[10:54] <mdz> elmo: please CC me on the RT
[10:54] <mjg59> I'll try to find out the requirements, and I'll try to find out how big that set is
[10:54] <mdz> mjg59: ogra would probably be willing to get you a shell account to get the stats
[10:55] <mdz> mjg59: but I'm quite confident that it's fewer than, say, the number of people who will be running Ubuntu on dual core machines next year
[10:55] <mjg59> mdz: -386 isn't inherently UP
[10:55] <mdz> mjg59: our -386 is (and must be, as I understand it) UP
[10:56] <mjg59> mdz: Hm? I thought that was just a policy decision in the dapper timeframe (we weren't confident enough in the SMP rewriting to make it the default kernel)
[10:56] <Burgwork> mjg59, also remember, the hwdb client has been hidden for dapper, so results may not be entirely accurate
[10:56] <mdz> mjg59: the kernel team looked into this for dapper and this was the outcome
[10:56] <mjg59> Burgwork: And not everyone runs it anyway
[10:56] <ogra_> mjg59, i have a set of 200 000 records on my people.ubuntu.com account ... (5 gig) if you want to have that or as mdz said, you can get a shell account on my server
[10:56] <mdz> mjg59: no, there was a reason why it couldn't work
[10:56] <mjg59> But it's potentially indicative
[10:56] <mjg59> mdz: Suck
[10:57] <mdz> mjg59: BenC will remember what it was
[10:57] <mdz> I don't
[10:57] <Burgwork> mjg59, indeed, but hiding it removes the chance of serendipitious discovery
[10:57] <mjg59> mdz: Sure, I'll ask him
[10:57] <jdub> ubiquity should prompt to run it
[10:57] <mdz> Burgwork: its menu entry was "rightsized"
[10:57] <Burgwork> it should
[10:58] <Burgwork> the client should also be expanded to cover the full laptop testing suite, as an option
[10:58] <mjg59> ogra_: Downloading 5 gig would be a bit of a pain, so an account would help :)
[11:00] <mdz> ogra: I hope you switched from bzip2 to gzip -9 as I suggested, otherwise mjg59's query will take aeons
[11:02] <ogra> ergh, nope
[11:02] <ogra> but the machine isnt the PII 233 anymore ... :)
[11:03] <ogra> mjg59, try ssh aleph.grawert.net
[11:04] <mjg59> ogra: Works
[11:04] <ogra> yep, i see you
[11:04] <mjg59> ogra: Ok. Where's the data?
[11:04] <ogra> /var/www/grawert.net/data/hwdb-data/
[11:04] <ogra> be careful the dir is huge
[11:05] <mjg59> Ok
[11:05] <mjg59> One file per submission?
[11:05] <ogra> yep
[11:05] <mjg59> Heh
[11:05] <ogra> and we're near 300000 :)
[11:05] <ogra> i'm waiting for the ok from elmo to move it, then i'll change to some dir driven sorting ...
[11:07] <mjg59> Heh
[11:07] <mjg59> My second attempt gives me a 586 with 192MB
[11:07] <ogra> heh
[11:07] <ogra> yes, there are funny setups in that collection :)
[11:09] <mjg59> Ah, this'll do
[11:10] <mjg59> Oops
[11:10] <ogra> just dont kill the server, i get my mail through it ;)
[11:10] <mjg59> Haha
[11:10] <jdub> that's what they said about the o-rings
[11:12] <mdz> jdub: they said that ogra gets his mail through o-rings?
[11:12] <ogra> heh
[11:12] <jdub> niiiice
[11:13] <jdub> so upgrade to edgy on my desktop was a bit hairy
[11:25] <mjg59> mdz: Interestingly, while the absolute number is small, average memory for 586 machines is hovering around 192MB
[11:26] <Burgwork> mjg59, by absolute number, are we talking less than 50/40/30/20/10/5%?
[11:26] <mjg59> Burgwork: I don't have useful progress data, so I'll have to wait until it's finished
[11:27] <Burgwork> right
[11:35] <mdz> mjg59: I think that's probably due to our analogue of the anthropic principle
[11:35] <mdz> mjg59: only 586s with that much RAM were able to run the hwdb client :-)
[11:35] <mjg59> Haha
[11:35] <tseng> is there a mirror of edgy stuff?
[11:35] <tseng> the knot1 cds
[11:36] <mdz> tseng: I believe so; see the knot release announcements
[11:36] <tseng> ah
[11:36] <tseng> umu, thanks
[11:39] <mc44> hmm any ideas when the next community council meeting might be?
[11:39] <tseng> mc44: there is a calendar on fridge.ubuntu.com
[11:40] <mc44> tseng: yes with no CC entries...
[11:40] <mjg59> Oh, hang on, this machine doesn't have a DVD burner...
[11:41] <tseng> The next meeting of the Council will be at to be announced on #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net
[11:41] <tseng> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[11:41] <tseng> funny.
[11:41] <mc44> heh
[11:42] <mc44> there hasnt seemed to be much notice of the CC meetings recently...
[11:42] <mc44> maybe jono will sort them out :)