[12:07] Is everyone in here paid? [12:07] hehe, I wish ;-) [12:07] most are not [12:07] LaserJock gets paid though === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F4674.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:08] bmonty: what? I get paid with bug reports :-) [12:08] .I'm a ubuntu user from NZ! [12:08] HarrySprocket: nope. [12:08] LaserJock: that is currency in MOTU-land, right? [12:08] HarrySprocket: you need to get ahold of an IRC op for #ubuntu to get yourself unbanned [12:08] ok [12:08] bmonty: sure, sure ;-) [12:09] I have some ideas for ubuntu [12:09] great, write a specification on the wiki detailing all the implementation plans and announce it on the ubuntu-devel mailing list [12:10] make sure to include background and use cases [12:13] HarrySprocket: pm Madpilot about your #ubuntu ban === hunger [n=tobias@p54A62D59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:16] HarrySprocket: join #ubuntu-ops to talk about your ban [12:17] Kamion: test install just finished on ppc, and I hear rockin' sound \o/ [12:18] Kamion: that means, no more regressions from my side === MarkShuttleWorth [n=sam@219-89-7-84.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:18] Hello [12:18] Are is everyone today? [12:18] MarkShuttleWorth: Hi Mark! [12:18] how* [12:18] "sam"? === pitti feels dapper, now that the point release CDs are great [12:19] great! [12:19] sam - new zealand? [12:19] dead give-away there. HarrySprocket. [12:20] MarkShuttleWorth: what happened to our beloved 'SABDFL'? :) === MarkShuttleWorth is now known as HarrySprocket [12:20] *cough choke splutter* [12:20] Does Mark Chat in here sometimes? [12:20] he's right there. [12:20] imposter [12:21] I assumed you would know it wasnt Mark [12:21] haha [12:21] well. *I* knew :-) [12:21] HarrySprocket, sabdfl IS Mark... [12:22] ok [12:22] good, i wasnt an imposter [12:22] ;-) [12:22] sabdfl, did you know ubuntu is very popular in NZ? [12:23] oh, that's cool - no i didn't! === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HarrySprockett [n=sam@222-154-148-163.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:26] my connection is crap! === Fujitsu [n=fujitsu@203.23.49.35] has joined #ubuntu-devel === AndyFitz [n=AndyFitz@nat-pool-brisbane.redhat.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:28] ubuntu devs...check it out....i am working on the Kubuntu Edgy Eft Knot releases.. see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot2/Kubuntu for an idea, however, if you all are interested in a familiar layout let myself or Corey Burger know, as these will become "Release" pages if i am correct ;) [12:28] releases = release nodes? [12:28] good night everyone! [12:29] notes yes === AndyFitz [n=AndyFitz@nat-pool-brisbane.redhat.com] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [12:29] but not the release notes that will be with the official 6.10 release of course [12:29] those are docbook and not moin ;) [12:29] night pitti! === Lathiat [n=lathiat@ubuntu/member/pdpc.basic.lathiat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Toadstool [n=jcorbier@ubuntu/member/toadstool] has joined #ubuntu-devel === FreeSourcly [n=sam@219-89-23-127.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nixternal_ [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === geser [n=michael@85.25.109.14] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [12:46] Ubuntu needs to move away from linux or it will always just be knowen as a 'linux distro' [12:47] it needs too use the best of linux but start moving away now. [12:47] hehe, and that's bad? [12:47] yes because ' [12:47] distros come and go....... [12:47] that makes no sense [12:48] Less than no sense. [12:48] yes, distros come and go, but linux doesn't [12:48] the ultimate goal should be a independant OS === nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:48] so why would we move away from Linux [12:48] Yeah, we don't really want to have our own kernel written... === nixternal points to #ubuntu-offtopic and gives off and evil grin ;) [12:49] s/and/an as well [12:50] 'ray peer! [12:50] ...? [12:51] (Connection reset by peer) [12:51] Ah. === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Frostnice [n=sam@219-89-27-53.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:55] Hello [12:55] ./join #ubuntu === TheMuso [n=luke@ubuntu/member/themuso] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:55] ops sorry. [12:56] I found a bug. [12:56] When you install....ubuntu then install kubuntu-desktop... the splash sceen changes to "blue kubuntu" [12:56] Frostnice: you can take a look if someone already posted it at http://launchpad.net . If yes, perhaps you can contribute with additional information on it. [12:57] it should remain "brown/orange ubuntu" [12:57] should it? [12:57] That's not a bug. [12:57] well yeah. [12:58] if they firstly install 'ubuntu' [12:58] they obviously want it as default. [12:58] And it is fairly easy to change back. [12:58] Frostnice, not necessarily. [12:59] How do you change it back? [12:59] I'm a n00b. [12:59] Frostnice: support questions are better handled at #ubuntu, not here. [01:00] Im banned [01:00] That's silly of you. [01:01] You already said that before. Perhaps you were banned for a reason? [01:01] Perhaps for trolling about Ubuntu moving away from Linux? === TentonMice [n=kvirc@219-89-27-53.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:01] Now, move this to #ubuntu-offtopic, please. [01:02] Ubuntu will take out Microsoft. Mark my words and excuse my pun. === Frostnice [n=sam@219-89-27-53.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [01:03] What a reject. [01:03] Be nice. [01:03] I don't think being nice is warranted in this case. [01:03] Well, alternatively just say nothing :) [01:03] well, it wasn't anything terrible [01:04] it wasnt like the world was coming to an end, just ignore the trolls [01:04] TentonMice: please try to keep discussion on-topic for development. === nalioth_ [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cprov [n=cprov@201.72.172.10] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lathiat [n=lathiat@ubuntu/member/pdpc.basic.lathiat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-237-85.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === azeem_ [n=mbanck@host109.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Surak [n=ubuntu@200.128.80.254] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mdeslaur [n=mdeslaur@modemcable196.26-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nalioth_ [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === micahcowan [n=micahcow@69.36.252.2] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lathiat_ [n=lathiat@ubuntu/member/pdpc.basic.lathiat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === gort [n=jgbiggs@cpe-24-175-10-187.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ThunderStruck [n=ThunderS@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-devel === MasterM [n=GrandMas@222-154-149-191.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel === j_ack [n=nico@p508D8A43.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rpedro_ [n=rpedro@87-196-98-218.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel === MasterMatt [n=GrandMas@222-154-149-191.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bluefoxicy [n=bluefox@c-68-33-112-13.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:06] hi === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jcsmith [n=jcsmith@wv-morgantown-cdnt1-bg1-4c-104.mgtnwv.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cprov [n=cprov@201.72.172.10] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === johanbr [n=j@d154-20-189-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mat__ [n=mat@82.247.157.187] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=ipp@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:18] Howdy === Gloubiboulga [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:20] bddebian: where you been hiding? [04:21] Hi nalioth [04:21] Hiding? [04:21] haven't see you in a while [04:22] I'm always here making the core-devs lives miserable :-) === micahcowan [n=micahcow@69.36.252.2] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dsas [n=dean@host81-158-83-114.range81-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@pool-72-64-211-102.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === MasterMatt [n=MasterMa@219-89-4-93.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:27] I have to say 'ubuntu easy' is the shit man! === MasterMatt [n=MasterMa@219-89-4-93.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gloubiboulga [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:45] hello:) [05:46] heya MasterMatt [05:46] How you doin? [05:46] Have you tried 'easy ubuntu'? [05:46] it's grand. === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dmg [n=dmg@MTL-HSE-ppp192237.qc.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dilinger [i=dilinger@mouth.voxel.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=ipp@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dudus [n=dudus@200.246.22.208] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:59] ha ha [06:59] "not defined as the opposite as something else" [06:59] "how about non-opensource?" === Treenaks_ [n=martijn@thuis.foodfight.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nags [n=nags@125.16.129.16] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:02] that just rolls off the tongue === evand_ is now known as evand === Treenaks_ is now known as Treenaks [07:23] jdub: surely commercial/proprietary is simply the absence of open source? [07:24] the opposite would be some kind of viral code that explicitly forces you to not release any source code sharing the same system? :) [07:24] Keybuk: ;-) [07:25] Keybuk: noticed that launchd is now available under ASL2? [07:25] no, I hadn't looked [07:25] oh. my. god. [07:26] no. fucking. way. [07:26] their collaboration server is built on twisted [07:27] interesting === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:40] jdub: what's launchd ? [07:41] sivang: apple replacement to sysvinit [07:41] Burgundavia: ah, I see [07:41] sivang: as well as cron, at, etc [07:42] Burgundavia: ah, so it has all of those tools functionality ? [07:43] sivang: yes, it is quite cool but sadly APSL licensed [07:43] I think the plan is to grow Keybuk's replacement-init into something similar to it and SMF, but only GPL licensed, so distros like Suse and Fedora can use it [07:44] pretty much, yup === Gidget [n=gidgetb_@adsl-219-163-248.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cymcy [n=cymcy@d213-103-223-162.cust.tele2.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:46] Burgundavia: did you read above? [07:46] jdub: sorry, I just joined [07:46] Burgundavia: ASL2 [07:46] jdub: when I read about launchd I told myself "jdub going to dig this in 3...2...1..." [07:46] launchd is ASL2? [07:47] whiprush: not wildly so [07:47] i'm more interested in the calendar server, which is built on twisted [07:47] last I recall you digged the solaris thing better [07:47] twisted? no shit? [07:47] that's, odd ... [07:51] why so? [07:54] I typically don't equate apple with using things they didn't invent [07:54] they use a lot of stuff like that [07:55] well they seem to have sensible developers who don't want to reinvent things that already work nicely and just complement their ideas on it === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:59] I suppose ASL2 is some sort of GPL compatible license so that's why the fuss about it ? === whiprush is paging through 15 channels of the same conversation trying to piece it all together. [08:00] haha yahhh [08:00] irc mash ups would be more chaotic [08:00] sivang: because it's a free license, not considered gpl-compatible [08:01] according to the fsf, anyway [08:01] ajmitch: I see, meaning we cannot do free use of it in Ubuntu? [08:01] sivang: it's a free software license, so it can be used [08:01] not everything has to be GPL-compatible [08:02] has anyone checked out this launchd thing in detail at all? [08:04] it says ASL2 is incompatible with GPL [08:04] but nonetheless, a free software license [08:04] sivang: ^^ [08:04] jsgotangco: I see [08:05] "it has certain patent termination cases that the GPL does not require" === basanta [n=basanta@202.79.37.177] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:06] whiprush: yes, extensively [08:06] whiprush: what would you like to know about it? [08:07] Keybuk: opinion? iirc from reading the summary the problem was the licensing. [08:07] just wondering if this new apache 2.0 license thing is interesting. [08:07] good points: [08:07] - simple design [08:07] - has the cron and inetd replacement out of the box [08:07] - some mythical "start services only when required" code [08:07] bad points: [08:08] - no dependency/event graph; expects apache's init script to spin until /usr is mounted, then spin until the network is up, etc. [08:08] - xml configuration [08:08] mm xml [08:08] - probably would be considered a net loss of functionality [08:10] Keybuk: so overall, thumbs down? [08:11] whiprush: when Keybuk thinks he can do better, definitely thumbs down ;-) [08:11] haha [08:11] the sun stuff looks so interesting, pity about the license. [08:11] whiprush: what's wrong with the license? [08:12] afaik doesn't the cddl make it out of the running for putting it in ubuntu? [08:12] not even remotely [08:12] oh really? [08:12] CDDL is a generalised MPL [08:12] a very good license === whiprush recalls reading a comparison of init things ruling out the smf stuff === whiprush goes to check [08:13] it also happens to be as incompatible with the GPL as the MPL is [08:13] but for a daemon that runs stuff... === whiprush nods [08:14] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit [08:14] "The first two of these suffer from inescapable licence problems, which is relatively unfortunate as both have features that are somewhat appealing though neither quite fix our problems." [08:15] is the page out of date or ... ? [08:16] whiprush: it is out of date as for this morning [08:16] it's just wrong [08:16] people don't grok CDDL === whiprush just walks away from the argument. [08:16] jdub: it seems sane to work on an init system across many distros, including debian [08:16] debian has rejected the cddl [08:16] no they haven't === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@c58-107-168-5.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=ipp@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel === johanbr [n=j@d154-20-189-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === viviersf [n=cain@196.44.1.98] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gidget [n=gidgetb_@adsl-219-163-248.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [08:26] whiprush: actually, I liked launchd and thought it was be good for "a base to extend [08:27] but the licence was (and probably still is) against that [08:28] Keybuk: ASL@? [08:28] why so? [08:29] it isn't GPL compatible, no? [08:29] ASL2 rings vague debian-legal alarm bells in the back of my head [08:29] Keybuk: fading away into sleep, but will log the rest of the conversation. :D [08:29] Keybuk: why would it need to be GPL compat? [08:30] Keybuk: its GPL compatibility is disputed [08:30] jdub: otherwise many people get discouraged from adoption === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:30] Keybuk: I'm sure it beats working on network-manager. :p [08:30] See, that was a joke ... [08:32] jdub: e.g. depending on your interpretation of the GPL wrt dynamic linking; it may not be legal to write a GNOME frontend to launchd [08:32] (assuming you have to C&P paste code from other GNOME apps, which ime is mandatory) === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=ipp@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:39] Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper? [08:40] Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates? [08:40] Keybuk: (i wouldn't have though think linking would be required to create a frontend for launchd) [08:40] dunno, I think we have; ask pitti [08:41] jdub: you'd need at least some of the launchd config file interpretation code === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:42] oh [08:42] wow [08:42] timing [08:42] pitti: hi! [08:42] 16:39 < jdub> Keybuk: have we done any universe security updates for dapper? [08:42] 16:40 < jdub> Keybuk: trac (universe) could do with an update - is a backport ok for universe security updates? [08:42] [08:42] ^ pitti [08:44] Good morning [08:45] jdub: pants off! [08:45] jdub: just one or two, but negligible [08:45] jdub: as long as the new version is reasonably tested, I'm fine with that [08:46] jdub: just a microversion update? [08:46] jdub: the changelog should be checked for sanity, and if possible, the diff, too === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@100.229-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:49] pitti: ok, i'll backport and test, and let you know [08:49] pitti: thanks! === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:50] jdub: cool! [08:57] I looked at trac for dapper-security and found it was a bit much, but that was a while ago === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B057C.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:02] good morning === Keybuk hugs dholbach [09:03] hey Keybuk :) === rpedro_ [n=rpedro@87-196-6-43.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:04] I wonder if seb128 slept at all [09:04] edgy-changes suggests otherwise [09:05] Keybuk: thanks for all the syncs [09:06] Keybuk: thanks for the syncs; strange, I did not get accepted mails for most of them (just for bzr) [09:08] pitti: I'm still doing them [09:08] the process is roughly [09:08] for SYNC in LIST; do sync-source $SYNC; done ; upload all syncs [09:08] I'm still going through the list [09:11] Keybuk: sorry about the mini-dinstall sync by the way, I must have been very sleepy not to notice the NMU is misversionned... :/ [09:12] \o/ only bddebian's left now === glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-62-245-210-231.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:15] Keybuk: how much interest have you had from other distros for init-ng-Keybukstyle? [09:16] Burgundavia: much [09:16] Keybuk: this launchd stuff change the landscape much? [09:16] Burgundavia: everyone I've explained it to in detail has made vague "waaant" noises [09:16] right [09:16] any actual code from anybody else? [09:16] Burgundavia: not really; upstart is now just as feature complete as launchd, so the theory of using that as a base wouldn't gain anything ... and I still think it has licence problems [09:17] nah, people are waiting for usto prove it works first [09:17] plus I've not published the code anyway [09:18] seems that Enomalism isn't in edgy yet ;) http://enomalism.com/Wiki.wiki+M5902e6c2d07.0.html (a web-interface for Xen) === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pounk [n=pounkf@142-217-81-161.telebecinternet.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:22] seb128! === pitti hugs the Great Gnominator [09:22] cool name [09:24] hey pitti :) === mvo [n=egon@p54A679B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:29] ogra: new gnome-powermanager and new gnome-screensaver [09:32] Keybuk: is that you that do NEW processing nowadays? evolution-data-server has new binaries: libecal1.2-7 and libedata-cal1.2-6 (sonames change), accepting them so would be welcome (no hurry, just pointing what changed for it) === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:37] seb128: I do some of it, yes [09:37] gonna do some in a few minutes [09:39] hi Hobbsee [09:41] hey pitti [09:47] Keybuk, in a udev script, %k is the device name, are there easy variables for devicetype (cdrom/harddisc/camera) and for the label ? or do i need hal for that ? [09:47] dholbach, thanks for notifying :) === pounk [n=pounkf@142-217-81-161.telebecinternet.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:50] ogra: %k is the kernel name, not necessarily the name udev willg ive for the device [09:50] ogra: define "device type", define "label" [09:50] ah, ok === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:50] ype as i said above for a block device i want to know if its a cdrom or a harddisk first place ... [09:51] assuming you mean block devices, you can use %env{ID_TYPE} and %env{ID_FS_UUID} etc. [09:51] ogra: you missed the word "block device" :p [09:51] ah, cool [09:51] yes, sorry :) [09:51] its early :) [09:51] udevinfo -qall is your friend [09:51] e.g. udevinfo -qall -n sda1 === MasterMatt [n=MasterMa@219-89-4-93.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:52] hmm, intresting ... [09:53] in the thin client it doesnt see the label [09:54] hmm, and my camera is a floppy according to ID_TYPE :) [09:59] Keybuk: thanks for the masses of syncs/removals :) === Hobbsee notes that her inbox is semi-flooded again. i only cleared that out a few hours ago! :P === carlos [n=carlos@13.Red-88-16-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === robertj [n=robertj@66-188-77-153.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === herzi [n=herzi@kiwi.mediascape.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:08] Keybuk, i noticed that the fuse module isnt autoloaded if i want to access /dev/fuse ... do i need an udev script here as well ? [10:08] fuse is one of the tricky ones, like ppp, etc. [10:09] it's not associated with any device, so it won't be automatically loaded [10:09] well, i'll need it loaded for ltspfs [10:09] the easiest way is just modprobe -Qb fuse [10:09] and the fuse utils are all acessing /dev/fuse [10:09] i.e. fusermount [10:10] so i'd assume we can associate t with that device ... [10:10] another way would be to put /dev/fuse in /lib/udev/devices [10:10] device == physical device, sorry [10:10] and link it to /dev ? [10:11] things in /lib/udev/devices are copied to /dev by the udev init script [10:11] hmm, that would mean i have it permanently loaded [10:12] no, it'd be loaded when the device was first touched [10:12] loading the module already creates it dynamically in /dev [10:12] one can mknod anything without loading the module [10:12] right [10:12] the choice is [10:12] 1) loading the module with modprobe so the device is created [10:12] 2) having the device already around, so the module is loaded by kmod [10:12] hmm ... [10:13] 1) is a problem because i'd need root access while a user driven script runs ... === trukulo [n=mzarza@37.Red-80-37-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:13] right, we have the same problem with ppp [10:13] so the ltspfs postinst would have to mknod /lib/udev/devices/fuse ... ok [10:14] no [10:14] but ? [10:14] the ltspfs package could just ship that [10:14] ah [10:14] or, tbh, I'd probably just ship it in the udev package [10:14] no need to mknod ? [10:14] what's the major/minor ? [10:14] well, it does the mknod in debian/rules [10:14] crw-rw---- 1 root fuse 10, 229 2006-08-07 19:18 /dev/fuse === jamesh [n=james@82.109.136.116] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [n=stub@82.109.136.116] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:15] (the group is important) [10:15] the group is not possible, I'm afraid [10:15] hmm [10:15] if it's shipped in a package, it'll have to be root:root until udev's init script runs [10:15] it may be that #1 is your only solution then [10:16] hmm [10:16] echo "fuse" >> /etc/modules [10:16] :P [10:16] yup [10:16] ugly [10:17] but if there is no way around ... *shrug* [10:18] it's in a class of modules we haven't got a perfect solution for yet [10:18] drivers without hardware [10:18] yep [10:19] you want it loaded if you want it [10:19] usually it just makes sense to load them with modprobe when necessary [10:19] but when the device needs to be used by !root, that's a problem [10:20] we vaguely chatted once about making modprobe setuid root, and then having it decide whether the real user could load that module or not [10:20] well, fuse is exactly for userspace only, as the name implies :) [10:20] but I suspect that's the kind of thing that makes pitti soil his underwear [10:20] hehe [10:20] i'm fine for now with /etc/modules its just sad we cant do it dynamically ... [10:21] and i think in hotplug times it was loaded dynamically, but i might be wrong [10:21] Keybuk: are there more examples where calling modprobe would make sense (which are not just bugs)? [10:21] the fuse utils package used to ship a script [10:21] pitti: ppp [10:21] pitti: loop [10:21] pitti, pppoe ? [10:22] pitti: tun [10:22] Keybuk: ok, ppp makes sense, but loop? [10:22] pitti: mount should be able to "modprobe loop" if it's in fstab and user [10:22] loop is autoloaded [10:22] users can't setup loop devices without root power anyway [10:22] but can't [10:22] Keybuk: ah, ok [10:22] ogra: only because we have a static device in /dev copied in by init [10:22] if i mount -o loop i have no complaints here [10:22] aha [10:22] ! [10:23] is there any way to conditionally build a target in Makefile.am based on a config.h variable? (i. e. the presence/absence of a library detected by configure) [10:24] if VARIABLE [10:24] ... [10:24] endif [10:24] oh, wow, magic :) [10:24] Keybuk: thanks [10:24] (must be defined in configure.ac by AM_CONDITIONAL [10:24] usually you do something like AM_CONDITIONAL(VARIABLE, test x$ac_variable = xtrue) or something [10:25] there's an example in the info page === ogra wonders why debian removed the link from /etc/mtab to /proc/mounts in ltsp clients ... [10:27] Keybuk: ah, http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/automake/automake_106.html [10:27] and i wonder why i dont get my mounts right *sigh* [10:32] the fact that dash doesnt know about $UID is rather impressing :) [10:33] ogra: id -un ? [10:33] i've put UID=$(id -u) at the top, yes :) [10:34] but still, thats a variable i'd have expected in any shell :) [10:34] ogra: better not rely on it :) [10:34] yeah, seems like [10:34] ogra: otherwise I could do nasty things with export UID=0 or so :) [10:34] pitti: export UID=-1 [10:34] oh, i dont use it for anything critical ... just for a directory name [10:35] StevenK: what's -1, super-root? :) [10:35] reverse root :) [10:35] pitti: UID's are unsigned, it'd be fun watching stuff blow up. [10:35] toor :) [10:35] StevenK: ah, might wrap to nobody then (65535?) [10:36] Hey, that's a point. [10:36] well, that would be -2 [10:36] steven@liquified:~% id -- -2 [10:36] id: -2: No such user [10:37] ogra: mtab and mounts aren't equivalent [10:37] Keybuk, in ltsp-clients they are (read only filesystem, i need to know what the kernel thinks is mounted) === fnordus [n=dnall@s142-179-111-243.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:38] ogra: why not just use /proc/mounts directly then? [10:38] Keybuk, because apps look in mtab ... [10:38] its fine with the link [10:38] ok [10:38] debian just removed it and made mtab a static readonly file [10:38] mounts is missing mount options though, no? [10:38] which doesnt help much for local device support :) [10:39] http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/000095399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_05_03 [10:39] ^ doesn't specify UID as a shell-set parameter [10:39] so $UID is a bashism [10:39] Doesn't help that zsh also seems to have it. [10:39] well, fstab is a writeable file ... and devices i plug in use it ... so i have the options there [10:40] and i call mount directly as mount -o sync ... anyway ... [10:40] no extra options needed :) === jono [n=jono@mail.openadvantage.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:45] hi all [10:46] hey jono [10:46] heya sabdfl [10:46] sabdfl, hows things this morning? [10:46] excellent, am en route to cambridge for a bit of supercomputer action [10:46] always makes for a fun day [10:46] :) [10:47] nice [10:47]