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| nemish | Can someone tell me yes or no but I thought in xorg that radeon driver was deprecated and supposed to use ati driver? | 12:43 |
|---|---|---|
| Burgwork | nemish, not really, but this is not a support channel | 12:44 |
| nemish | Burgwork, thanks.. sorry | 12:44 |
| Burgwork | nemish, no worries | 12:45 |
| TheMuso | c | 12:50 |
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| BenC | isn't Breaks supposed to obsolete the provides/conflicts/replaces trio? | 01:02 |
| Keybuk | BenC: not obsolete, no | 01:03 |
| Keybuk | Breaks does replace most uses of Conflicts: << | 01:03 |
| Keybuk | it's for "these don't work together", leaving conflicts for "these contain the same files" | 01:04 |
| BenC | so if a package is renamed, then I should still use the old provides/conflicts/replaces setup to replace the old package? | 01:04 |
| BenC | this is for linux-kernel-headers being renamed to libc-dev-linux-headers, which only libc6-dev depends on, and it's not a versioned depends | 01:06 |
| BenC | means libc-dev-linux-headers wont really be installed until libc6-dev is updated, but at least things wont break | 01:07 |
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| ghee22 | hi | 01:13 |
| ghee22 | I am trying to make my program l10n compatible or I18n compatible | 01:13 |
| Burgwork | ghee22, you need gettext support | 01:13 |
| ghee22 | anyone have directions on how to get this started? I am reading through the debian intro on this topic and it's very thourough | 01:13 |
| ghee22 | hey burg, I am not familiar with gettext | 01:14 |
| Burgwork | sorry, nor am I | 01:15 |
| ghee22 | ok, if anyone is, is the gnu gettext? http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/ | 01:15 |
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| allee | bug or feature that pmount version in dapper-updates is higher than in edgy? | 01:18 |
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| BenC | Kamion: nic-firmware will be in the 2.6.17-6 kernel uploading tonight | 02:18 |
| gnomefreak | BenC: Kamio^n is onvacation this week | 02:20 |
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| Burgwork | gnomefreak, people on vacation at canonical have an alarming habit of still being on irc | 02:21 |
| gnomefreak | that doesnt sound like a vacation :( | 02:21 |
| imbrandon | that and they read irc logs too ;) | 02:22 |
| Burgwork | imbrandon, are you telling my people who develop ubuntu can read? I am shocked ;) | 02:23 |
| imbrandon | hahah | 02:23 |
| imbrandon | they read / dream in c++^W<fav prog lang here> | 02:24 |
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| Burgwork | imbrandon, this is ubuntu. They dream in python | 02:25 |
| imbrandon | ahh right | 02:26 |
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| ohoel | was xorg 7.1 in knot1? | 02:32 |
| crimsun | no | 02:42 |
| crimsun | (well, it depends how much of 7.1 you're referring to. It had bits and pieces already.) | 02:43 |
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| ohoel | thanks crimsun | 03:01 |
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| wasabi | Heh. X in edgy is actually fine! It's fglrx that's messed. =( | 06:50 |
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| === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | yes X in edgy is a mess atm | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current Test the 6.06.1 images! | | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by Kamion at Sun Aug 6 13:23:56 2006 | ||
| lmanul | Hi desrt :) | 09:16 |
| lmanul | desrt: Somehow "Manu the brown" doesn't sound as shiny as "Gandalf the white", I don't know why ;-) | 09:17 |
| desrt | white is shiner than brown. | 09:17 |
| lmanul | Oh, that must be it. | 09:18 |
| lmanul | :) | 09:18 |
| jdub | ha ha ha | 09:18 |
| jdub | manu the brown | 09:18 |
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| lmanul | Hi jdub :) | 09:18 |
| pitti | Good morning | 09:18 |
| jdub | hey hey pitti | 09:19 |
| === Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-devel.log | ||
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| === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | yes X in edgy is a mess atm | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current Test the 6.06.1 images! | | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by Kamion at Sun Aug 6 13:23:56 2006 | ||
| (sivang/#ubuntu-devel) morning | 09:22 | |
| pitti | jdub: hey Jeff, how are your pants today? | 09:22 |
| === pitti hugs desrt | ||
| === desrt smiles and hugs back | ||
| === pitti gives sivang a big good morning hug | ||
| thom | pitti: that's a pretty brave question, on balance | 09:23 |
| thom | morning | 09:23 |
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| jdub | pitti: funny you should ask | 09:23 |
| pitti | thom: I feel lucky today :) | 09:23 |
| pitti | thom: good morning, too! | 09:23 |
| jdub | pitti: i had a string of pants-wearing days | 09:23 |
| jdub | pitti: and today i found that all my pants needed to go in the wash | 09:23 |
| pitti | jdub: not too surprising in your winter | 09:23 |
| jdub | so i am hanging loose today | 09:23 |
| jdub | pitti: yeah, it is pretty cold here atm | 09:24 |
| jdub | at least at night | 09:24 |
| === sivang hugs pitti back :-) | ||
| jdub | that's the worst bit; it's reasonable during the day, but cold enough to feel very different at night | 09:24 |
| pitti | desrt: you cannot write a program that proofs that these bugs don't exist ;) | 09:24 |
| pitti | desrt: (very similar to the halting problem) | 09:24 |
| desrt | pitti; you're wrong. | 09:24 |
| pitti | desrt: however, there are some programs that do static code analysis | 09:25 |
| desrt | you confuse recognisers with deciders | 09:25 |
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| pitti | usually they can find something | 09:25 |
| pitti | desrt: but I never played with them, sorry :/ | 09:25 |
| desrt | have any names to drop? | 09:25 |
| === desrt is working on ideas for a thesis and wants to ensure that he isn't reinventing other people's wheels | ||
| jdub | bad idea: watching the whole billie piper series of doctor who, wondering why you thought her music was so bad, and finding some to listen to. | 09:26 |
| thom | jdub: define "pretty cold" | 09:26 |
| thom | jdub: hahaha | 09:26 |
| desrt | pitti; in any case, you could have a program that outputs either "safe", "unsafe" or "i don't know" | 09:27 |
| pitti | desrt: http://www.dwheeler.com/flawfinder/ maybe | 09:27 |
| jdub | thom: it's not all that cold really, but the difference between day and night makes it seem worse | 09:27 |
| desrt | pitti; and you can improve the chances of getting "safe" or "unsafe" with code annotation | 09:27 |
| pitti | desrt: right, finding potential overflows is not that difficult | 09:27 |
| pitti | desrt: however, so far I usually used the tools 'grep' and 'eagle eye' :) | 09:28 |
| desrt | i was actually sort of thinking more along the lines of the output being one of: | 09:28 |
| pitti | desrt: I'm pretty interested in automatic tools, just never found the time | 09:28 |
| desrt | - "i can prove that it is safe." | 09:28 |
| desrt | - "i can not prove that it is safe." | 09:28 |
| pitti | desrt: maybe 'I can prove that it is safe against buffer overflows' | 09:28 |
| desrt | since the people i am working for are definitely interested in hard proof | 09:28 |
| desrt | they're all about formal methods | 09:28 |
| pitti | but that will only be the case in rare circumstances | 09:28 |
| pitti | desrt: heh, rewrite the program in prolog :) | 09:29 |
| desrt | ok. maybe i define safe as "will not smash its stack for any user input" | 09:29 |
| pitti | then it is straightforward to proof | 09:29 |
| pitti | s/proof/prove/ | 09:29 |
| desrt | i want to do it for C | 09:29 |
| pitti | (just kidding) | 09:29 |
| desrt | since it's not even vaguely interesting for other "safer" languages | 09:29 |
| desrt | and since everyone always uses C anyway | 09:30 |
| === jdub swaps billie piper for shirley manson | ||
| desrt | pfah. that's garbage. | 09:30 |
| pitti | desrt: well, since security vulnerabilities happen on many different levels, you cannot really proof 'safety' | 09:30 |
| Spads | billie piper sings? | 09:30 |
| desrt | pitti; oh. i am only interested in the very small sort of definition of safety that i just stated | 09:30 |
| pitti | desrt: but memory checking is of course a confined domain which should have good tool support | 09:30 |
| thom | Spads: no. but she produced records | 09:30 |
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| desrt | memory checking implies runtime...... | 09:31 |
| desrt | anyway. lots to think about | 09:31 |
| desrt | and 2 years in which to think about it | 09:31 |
| pitti | desrt: ok, flawfinder and http://www.hp.com/go/cadvise/ are the two in my bookmark list | 09:32 |
| desrt | i guess i'll probably talk to you again some time in those 2 years :) | 09:32 |
| desrt | goodnight. | 09:32 |
| pitti | desrt: sleep well! | 09:33 |
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| lucas | pitti, desrt: there's the stanford checker too | 09:48 |
| lucas | it has gone commercial now, I think | 09:49 |
| crimsun | as coverity iirc | 09:50 |
| lucas | ah yes | 09:52 |
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| bluefoxicy | hmm | 10:09 |
| bluefoxicy | I didn't destroy my system | 10:10 |
| bluefoxicy | but I'm not quite sure I actually did anything useful either. | 10:10 |
| bluefoxicy | https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/networking-security-sysctls You be the judge; I'm going to sleep, it's 4am. | 10:10 |
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| fabbione | net.ipv4.conf.all.accept_redirects = 0 | 10:15 |
| fabbione | AHHH | 10:15 |
| === fabbione seeks and destroys who wrote that | ||
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Kamion] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | yes X in edgy is a mess atm | 6.06.1 released | ||
| ogra | yay | 10:15 |
| Kamion | which means I can *finally* start ignoring IRC :P | 10:15 |
| StevenK | Heh | 10:15 |
| Hobbsee | Kamion: hah. never | 10:15 |
| ogra | how many vacation days did you loose now ? | 10:15 |
| Burgundavia | Kamion: go away, you are on holiday | 10:15 |
| pitti | Kamion: \o/ | 10:16 |
| Kamion | ogra: on aggregate I think about 1-1.5 | 10:17 |
| infinity | Kamion: Awesome job, dude. Go away. | 10:17 |
| infinity | Kamion: I owe you some slack cover when you get back. Just let me know what slavery you need performed. | 10:18 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: redirects == one computer tells you that packets destined for <host> or <network> should instead be routed through <address> | 10:19 |
| === Hobbsee waves to infinity | ||
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: i know exactly what a redirect is | 10:19 |
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: turning it to off is BAD | 10:19 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: in other words, un-authenticated remote administration of routing tables. The best "secure" method we have is "look at gateways in our list," which turns into "spoof the default gateway" | 10:19 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: how is it bad | 10:19 |
| bluefoxicy | my understanding is that this isn't generally used except in very specific environments | 10:20 |
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: if you disable it, you can cause a DoS on the network | 10:20 |
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: it's always used | 10:20 |
| bluefoxicy | how can you cause a DoS | 10:20 |
| bluefoxicy | the only nodes I can imagine caring would be ... well... routers | 10:20 |
| fabbione | host A wants to talk to host B | 10:20 |
| bluefoxicy | and they typically use a routing information protocol | 10:20 |
| fabbione | host A default gw C | 10:20 |
| fabbione | C is a router on the same subnet as D | 10:21 |
| fabbione | B is connected behind D | 10:21 |
| bluefoxicy | A -- C -- D -- B ? | 10:21 |
| fabbione | when i first attempt from A to talk to B, C tells me that D is behind D | 10:21 |
| fabbione | (with a redirect) | 10:21 |
| Kamion | infinity: ta. *gone* | 10:21 |
| fabbione | A C D are on the same subnet | 10:21 |
| fabbione | BD are on another subnet | 10:21 |
| bluefoxicy | ah. | 10:21 |
| fabbione | C is default gw of A | 10:22 |
| fabbione | C knows where B is due routing table | 10:22 |
| bluefoxicy | so you're saying | 10:22 |
| fabbione | ok? | 10:22 |
| bluefoxicy | A's routing table is misconfigured. | 10:22 |
| fabbione | no | 10:22 |
| bluefoxicy | and you want it to magically fix itself. | 10:22 |
| fabbione | A is perfectly configured host with one default gw | 10:22 |
| fabbione | A default gw is C | 10:22 |
| fabbione | C knows that B is behind D | 10:22 |
| fabbione | ACD are on the same subnet | 10:23 |
| fabbione | when A tries to talk to B | 10:23 |
| fabbione | C will tell A (with a redirect) that B is behind D | 10:23 |
| bluefoxicy | at the expense that E on the same subnet as A C D can tell A (via spoofed ICMP packet from IP address C) that IT is the choice router for 0.0.0.0/0 (default gw) and thus now have a man-in-the-middle position between A and * | 10:23 |
| fabbione | becuase it's totally pointless for the traffic to go trough A | 10:23 |
| bluefoxicy | also | 10:23 |
| bluefoxicy | subnets were created for a reason. | 10:23 |
| bluefoxicy | Each subnet should exist in exactly one place; and all routers attached to it should be on its subnet on attached interface. | 10:24 |
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: if E has access to the physical network, it can do much worst than that. | 10:24 |
| fabbione | your point is void | 10:24 |
| fabbione | that setting is bad set to 0 | 10:24 |
| bluefoxicy | you're describing a condition where (A) has everything going through (C), (B) is on another subnet, and apparently nobody told (A) that that subnet is behind (D) | 10:24 |
| bluefoxicy | which is the proper way to set up the routing table | 10:25 |
| fabbione | no | 10:25 |
| bluefoxicy | the subnet (B) is on should not be inaccessible directly by (D) at any point | 10:25 |
| fabbione | you don't understand the picture i am giving to you | 10:25 |
| bluefoxicy | if it is your network is wrong. | 10:25 |
| fabbione | the perfect configured network | 10:25 |
| fabbione | no errors whatsoever | 10:25 |
| fabbione | A 192.168.1.100 | 10:25 |
| fabbione | C 192.168.1.1 | 10:25 |
| fabbione | D 192.168.1.2 | 10:26 |
| bluefoxicy | what subnet is behind C? | 10:26 |
| fabbione | D has also a 10.0.0.2 interface | 10:26 |
| bluefoxicy | routers have at least 2 interfaces (by definition) | 10:26 |
| fabbione | C 172.... whatever.. | 10:26 |
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| bluefoxicy | okay | 10:26 |
| fabbione | B is 10.0.0.100 | 10:26 |
| fabbione | ok? | 10:26 |
| bluefoxicy | then A should know to send 172.* to c and 10.* to D | 10:26 |
| fabbione | right they do | 10:27 |
| fabbione | we assume they are talking somekind of IGP | 10:27 |
| bluefoxicy | and then traffic will never be routed to the wrong router | 10:27 |
| fabbione | A is a host... remember.. one default gw | 10:27 |
| fabbione | exactly | 10:27 |
| bluefoxicy | yes | 10:27 |
| fabbione | A sends a packets to B | 10:27 |
| fabbione | the packets hits C | 10:27 |
| bluefoxicy | normally you don't really have two routers on the same network segment | 10:28 |
| fabbione | wrong | 10:28 |
| fabbione | you can have N routers on a network segment | 10:28 |
| bluefoxicy | wait, yeah... I did. | 10:28 |
| fabbione | C recog that packets from A can travel trough D directly to reach B | 10:28 |
| fabbione | C sends a redirect back to A | 10:28 |
| fabbione | A sends the packets via D | 10:29 |
| bluefoxicy | but the hosts on that segment had their default routes pointing in whatever direction The Internet was in; and routes to other things (the Wifi AP for one; also the Active Directory server) pointing towards the nearest router in that direction | 10:29 |
| fabbione | C forgets of that traffic 100% | 10:29 |
| fabbione | why can't you let me finish before doing other assumptions? | 10:29 |
| fabbione | the default gw does NOT necessarely points to internet | 10:29 |
| bluefoxicy | yeah | 10:29 |
| bluefoxicy | no, but mine did. I'm saying, my HOSTS each had 2-3 ROUTES | 10:29 |
| fabbione | ok you are not listening | 10:30 |
| fabbione | pointless to discuss | 10:30 |
| bluefoxicy | each host knew about the routers around it, and the routes into the network; they didn't need the routers to tell them about it | 10:30 |
| bluefoxicy | you're saying that each host is only going to have a default route; no other routes are possible | 10:31 |
| bluefoxicy | and that routers are going to tell them how to route packets to other routers near them | 10:31 |
| fabbione | you are putting words in my mounths i didn't say | 10:31 |
| fabbione | a host needs only a default gw | 10:31 |
| bluefoxicy | <fabbione> A is a host... remember.. one default gw | 10:31 |
| fabbione | the router will tell the host where to find the other stuff via icmp_redirect | 10:31 |
| fabbione | it doesn't need | 10:31 |
| fabbione | more than one route | 10:32 |
| fabbione | if you disable the icmp_redirect you will see default GW DoSed by ubuntu machines | 10:32 |
| bluefoxicy | only in network topologies that bank on that set-up | 10:33 |
| fabbione | and how uncommon do you think they are? | 10:33 |
| bluefoxicy | bah, I'll have to research it more. | 10:33 |
| fabbione | you better do | 10:33 |
| bluefoxicy | s/C/R1/ s/D/R2 | 10:35 |
| bluefoxicy | and you just made word for word Microsoft's same explanation of the issue | 10:35 |
| fabbione | of course, you didn't let me finish the explanation without coming up with other stuff | 10:37 |
| fabbione | the final issue is simple | 10:37 |
| === bluefoxicy finds a paper that says ICMP redirects point out "bad network design" and that "well designed network should not rely on or desire ICMP redirects" ... that's the same thing he just said | ||
| bluefoxicy | it's a two way channel, I can talk and listen at the same time | 10:38 |
| fabbione | if host A block redirects from R1 to talk to to B via R2 | 10:38 |
| fabbione | you will endup routing all the traffic from A to B via R1 and R2 | 10:38 |
| fabbione | when there is no real need to involve R1 | 10:38 |
| fabbione | now | 10:38 |
| bluefoxicy | in fact I can hold multiple lines of conversation with the same person or multiple people at the same time; although when with the same person they consistently have trouble demuxing the conversations from eachother | 10:38 |
| fabbione | if you want a practical example | 10:39 |
| fabbione | A is your workstation | 10:39 |
| fabbione | R1 is your 10Mb asdl router | 10:39 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: and if your network is designed well in the first place you won't have that problem | 10:39 |
| fabbione | bluefoxicy: wrong.. again.. | 10:39 |
| === StevenK wonders when fabbione will realease the specs for "ASDL" | ||
| quail | Mark Shuttleworth on More4 >>> http://www.channel4.com/more4/news/news-opinion-feature.jsp?id=350 | 10:40 |
| fabbione | StevenK: well ADSL ;) | 10:40 |
| fabbione | R2 is your gigabit server that act also as rotuer to your 100Mb printer | 10:40 |
| fabbione | B is the printer | 10:40 |
| fabbione | disable ICMP_Redirect and print | 10:41 |
| fabbione | and tell me if you can actually get to ping the adsl router | 10:41 |
| fabbione | (assuming you print a doc big enough.. like 100MB ps file) | 10:41 |
| bluefoxicy | lol this is cute | 10:41 |
| bluefoxicy | ping host B | 10:41 |
| bluefoxicy | and let it run | 10:41 |
| fabbione | repeat the above with icmp_redirect turned on | 10:41 |
| fabbione | (accepting icmp_redirect of course) | 10:42 |
| bluefoxicy | and it will keep firing pings through router C, and it will keep sending redirects to host A | 10:42 |
| fabbione | that too | 10:43 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: that's with redirects on | 10:43 |
| fabbione | off | 10:43 |
| bluefoxicy | no, on. | 10:43 |
| bluefoxicy | Ping doesn't re-initialize its route from the routing table until you restart the program | 10:43 |
| fabbione | if the redirect is accepted than you won't see all the redirects from C | 10:43 |
| fabbione | what kernel are you running? 2.0? | 10:43 |
| bluefoxicy | no, i'm reading a paper | 10:44 |
| fabbione | the last kernel i saw with such problem was 2.2.0 from RH | 10:44 |
| fabbione | oh clearly.. test it | 10:44 |
| fabbione | 2.4 or higher don't behave that way | 10:44 |
| fabbione | route lookup is performed on a pkt base | 10:44 |
| bluefoxicy | my network layouts look more like HOST --- ROUTER -- 2 ROUTERS -- OTHER HOSTS | 10:44 |
| bluefoxicy | or a router with 15 ports on it, etc. | 10:44 |
| fabbione | that's not the same setup i did describe to you | 10:45 |
| bluefoxicy | instead of trying to daisy chain routers through switches or hubs | 10:45 |
| bluefoxicy | the setup you descibed to me was "day 2 of CISCO CCNA academy: Don't Ever Do This, It's Stupid" | 10:45 |
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| fabbione | ahhaha | 10:46 |
| fabbione | yeah right | 10:46 |
| fabbione | ok | 10:46 |
| bluefoxicy | I wanted to kill justin for his braindead network layout he gave us to implement, it took us 1.5 months to get it half-functional. | 10:46 |
| fabbione | whatever | 10:46 |
| bluefoxicy | if he used a design where the routing was actually a backbone instead of a distributed mess mixed in with the rest of the network, it would'a been 3 days. | 10:47 |
| fabbione | according to your view there can't be more than one router in a subnet with hosts... | 10:47 |
| bluefoxicy | we kept runnining into issues like (amazingly) hosts having to have 2-3 routing table entries | 10:47 |
| fabbione | i don't care what you did at your CCNA | 10:47 |
| bluefoxicy | actually that network was in my implementing and maintaining network intrusion defenses class | 10:48 |
| bluefoxicy | and my view isn't that you can't do it | 10:48 |
| bluefoxicy | it's that it's rather close to pouring whiskey into your gas tank | 10:48 |
| bluefoxicy | it'll work | 10:48 |
| bluefoxicy | it's still not the best idea. | 10:48 |
| bluefoxicy | aww... this guy doesn't even address any security issues :( | 10:49 |
| bluefoxicy | he just talks about how networks reliant on redirects are inefficient and poorly designed. That's no fun. | 10:49 |
| bluefoxicy | it's 5am | 10:49 |
| bluefoxicy | I need sleep. | 10:50 |
| bluefoxicy | fabbione: I am pretty certain that any network you give me lain out like that I can do better. | 10:50 |
| bluefoxicy | and yeah | 10:50 |
| bluefoxicy | if you have routers forwarding to routers on the same interface you're doubling the bandwidth, which halves your capacity and can lead to network storms | 10:50 |
| === fabbione wonders how he managed to admin AS3263 and AS6762 with over 50GB of traffic than... | ||
| bluefoxicy | but fixing the design will fix that | 10:51 |
| fabbione | anyway | 10:51 |
| bluefoxicy | sleep0rz | 10:51 |
| fabbione | i don't care how you design the net | 10:51 |
| fabbione | that kind of networks are in use | 10:51 |
| fabbione | by who.. i don't care | 10:51 |
| fabbione | it's a real use case | 10:51 |
| bluefoxicy | there are a lot of 'real use cases' that are both stupid and fixable for a low but significant cost barrier | 10:52 |
| bluefoxicy | unfortunately i'd be lying if I said I didn't think they mattered | 10:52 |
| jdub | Kamion: WOOHOO! congrats :-) | 10:58 |
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| carlos | doko: hi | 11:23 |
| carlos | doko: around ? | 11:23 |
| doko | carlos: yes | 11:23 |
| carlos | doko: http://people.ubuntu.com/~carlos/oo-translations-20060808.tar.gz | 11:23 |
| doko | carlos: ohh, nice. | 11:23 |
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| nags | seb128, hi | 11:55 |
| nags | seb128, asked Prashanth Mohan to upload | 11:55 |
| nags | seb128, evolution scripts | 11:55 |
| seb128 | re | 11:55 |
| seb128 | cool | 11:55 |
| nags | seb128, now they are available with a ready me | 11:55 |
| nags | seb128, me getting the link | 11:55 |
| seb128 | nice | 11:55 |
| nags | seb128, Evolution automation scripts are now uploaded here - http://people.freedesktop.org/~prashmohan/evolution/ | 11:56 |
| seb128 | nags: thank you for the pointer | 11:57 |
| nags | seb128, can I convert that avi to ogg - screencast of Evolution automation and Tinderbox integration ? Many people were unable to view the contents properly. They all reported the screen is blank | 11:57 |
| seb128 | nags: probably but I'm not sure of how | 11:57 |
| nags | seb128, If possible can somebody verify those Evolution scripts and give their feedback, so that we can incorporate them back ? and over a period of time, we can use that in regression ? | 11:58 |
| nags | seb128, okay, no problem :) | 11:58 |
| seb128 | nags: yeah, that would be nice to get them integrated | 11:58 |
| nags | seb128, also, I'm working with cr3, I will let him know about the scripts | 11:58 |
| madduck | thom++ on your blog post | 11:59 |
| nags | seb128, we are also working on gedit scripts, more than 70 scenarios we have automated, by next week it will be on your table :) | 11:59 |
| nags | brb | 12:00 |
| seb128 | rock! | 12:01 |
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| siretart | seb128: pong re bug #48138 | 12:27 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 48138 in totem "totem-xine crashes when started with no argument" [Unknown,Fix released] http://launchpad.net/bugs/48138 | 12:27 |
| siretart | seb128: I reassigned it because following the bugtrail, and after looking at the referenced gnome bug, I came to the conclusion that the bug is rather somewhere in totem-xine than libxine | 12:27 |
| seb128 | siretart: just wanted to point that the commit message is a libxine one, it has been reassigned back to xine-lib since ;) | 12:28 |
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| seb128 | siretart: I've not copied the first line of the comment from bugzilla which is "Fixed in xine-lib HEAD" | 12:28 |
| seb128 | follow by the "revision 1.30" | 12:29 |
| siretart | oh. I see. my bad | 12:29 |
| siretart | checking xine-lib cvs.. | 12:29 |
| ajmitch | hi | 12:32 |
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| siretart | seb128: you're right, my bad. I identified the patch in upstream cvs, I can try to cherry pick that patch to our package. | 12:35 |
| seb128 | siretart: np, thank you for looking at it, that would be nice ;) | 12:35 |
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| ozamosi | Does anyone here know where I can find documentation about the way ubiquity works? | 12:49 |
| pitti | RTFS? | 12:49 |
| Hobbsee | heh | 12:49 |
| === Hobbsee likes pitti's answer | ||
| pitti | ozamosi: seriously, you can look into the various specifications on wiki.ubuntu.com | 12:52 |
| ozamosi | If S means spec, then yes, that's what I'm looking for. | 12:52 |
| pitti | ozamosi: 'S' usually means 'source', but the specs might be helpful as well, depending on how much detail you need | 12:52 |
| ozamosi | Of course... When the spec was written, it was called Ubuntu Express... Found it! :) | 12:55 |
| tseng | ubuntu express was renamed to espresso and then to ubiquity | 01:01 |
| tseng | to aid in your searching | 01:01 |
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| pygi | hey Hobbsee | 01:23 |
| Hobbsee | hi pygi | 01:23 |
| rodarvus | guys, I have a pending update for xorg-server (about 16 new patches applied). I'd like to have as much testing as possible, on this new release | 01:24 |
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| rodarvus | it is available on http://people.ubuntu.com/~rodarvus/packages/xorg-server/ (for i386 and amd64) | 01:24 |
| ajmitch | rodarvus: will test | 01:24 |
| pitti | rodarvus: grabbing | 01:24 |
| rodarvus | ajmitch, thanks! | 01:24 |
| rodarvus | pitti, thanks! | 01:25 |
| StevenK | Hum. | 01:26 |
| StevenK | Launchpad is on crack. | 01:26 |
| ajmitch | StevenK: this is news? | 01:26 |
| StevenK | The buildd log says a build took 48 seconds, and Launchpad says it took 16 minutes. | 01:26 |
| StevenK | ajmitch: :-P | 01:27 |
| rodarvus | StevenK, I'm sure the LaunchPad developers will be thankful to receive your bug report :) | 01:27 |
| === pitti wonders whether he is on crack and why all built package binaries suddenly already have gnu debuglinks; this breaks debhelper's -dbg package building | ||
| === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| pitti | can anyone please bzr get http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/pkg-create-dbgsym/ubuntu , cd dhtest.dbg, and debuild -us -uc -b? (on very latest edgy) | 01:34 |
| pitti | (or apt-get source pkg-create-dbgsym, works as well) | 01:35 |
| pitti | building zsh breaks for me, too | 01:35 |
| rodarvus | pitti, it works - do you want me to upload the resulting .deb somewhere? | 01:38 |
| pitti | rodarvus: no, not necessary | 01:38 |
| pitti | rodarvus: suddenly, all packages which build a -dbg package break for me | 01:38 |
| pitti | rodarvus: since they already have a gnu debuglink, so when dh_strip tries to add its own, it breaks | 01:38 |
| rodarvus | time to reinstall? :) | 01:38 |
| pitti | rodarvus: bwah, I reinstalled two days ago :/ | 01:39 |
| rodarvus | ouch | 01:39 |
| pitti | and it still worked yesterday | 01:39 |
| pitti | it broke after today's dist-upgrade | 01:39 |
| rodarvus | I reinstalled my main desktop yesterday | 01:39 |
| rodarvus | too much breakage on it after building/testing X.Org 7.1 | 01:39 |
| pitti | rodarvus: do you have libc 2.4-1ubuntu7? | 01:39 |
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| pitti | it's the only package that is remotely toolchanin | 01:40 |
| rodarvus | pitti, yes | 01:40 |
| pitti | although I don't see how libc6 would have influence on the debuglink | 01:40 |
| pitti | hm | 01:40 |
| pitti | my box is clearly screwed then | 01:40 |
| pitti | rodarvus: thanks! | 01:40 |
| rodarvus | np | 01:40 |
| Hobbsee | pitti: i killed it last night. sorry about that :P | 01:40 |
| === pitti grrs at Hobbsee | ||
| Hobbsee | pitti: the plan of world domination is succeeding. | 01:42 |
| === Hobbsee grabs her whip, and shows it to pitti. be careful, oh growling one :P | ||
| === pitti changes from grrring to purring | ||
| rodarvus | pitti, wait | 01:44 |
| pitti | rodarvus: please tell me I'm not on crack | 01:44 |
| rodarvus | building the code from bzr fails for me too, while building from the source in the archives works | 01:44 |
| pitti | rodarvus: are you sure? they are identical | 01:45 |
| === Hobbsee hugs pitti :) | ||
| rodarvus | yup | 01:45 |
| Hobbsee | good pitti | 01:45 |
| rodarvus | pitti, pasted on /msg window | 01:45 |
| pitti | rodarvus: right, I get the same error here | 01:45 |
| pitti | rodarvus: bug diff -Nur' in the two directories shouldn't give any difference, doesn it? | 01:45 |
| rodarvus | let me check | 01:46 |
| pitti | can anyone else on *latest* dapper please try to build zsh and see whether dh_strip aborts with an "Invalid operation"? | 01:46 |
| mvo | pitti: I can do this, give me a bit | 01:47 |
| pitti | rodarvus: I get the same fault from the archive version | 01:47 |
| pitti | mvo: or, any package that builds a -dbg package, doesn't matter | 01:47 |
| pitti | zsh just was the smallest example I could find in 30 seconds | 01:47 |
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| mvo | pitti: I have some outstanding upgrades (~10), I do them now and will build then | 01:48 |
| rodarvus | pitti, same stuff on both | 01:48 |
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| pitti | mvo: can you please try both before and after? | 01:48 |
| pitti | mvo: is libc amongst the outstanding ones? | 01:48 |
| mvo | pitti: no, looks like its only gstreamer stuff | 01:49 |
| pitti | mvo: just build dhtest.dbg in pkg-create-dbgsym then, it's faster | 01:49 |
| pitti | mvo: oh, ok | 01:49 |
| ajmitch | rodarvus: this xserver appears to work ok on i386 - at least no issues in the limited testing I've done | 01:49 |
| rodarvus | ajmitch, thanks | 01:50 |
| rodarvus | ajmitch, switching to vt1 works as usual (considering vt switching is working for you currently) | 01:50 |
| ajmitch | yes | 01:50 |
| rodarvus | hooray | 01:50 |
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| rodarvus | pitti, the machine you are going to test xorg-server on is an amd64? | 01:52 |
| pitti | rodarvus, mvo: bingo! after downgrading libc6 it works again | 01:52 |
| pitti | rodarvus: yes | 01:52 |
| rodarvus | nice | 01:53 |
| === pitti files a bug | ||
| mvo | pitti: that means I can stop building zsh? | 01:54 |
| pitti | mvo: yes, I think so | 01:54 |
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| mvo | pitti: it seems to have build for me, what version of glibc do you have installed? | 01:57 |
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| pitti | mvo: 2.4-1ubuntu7 | 02:00 |
| pitti | mvo: it works with ubuntu6 and fails with ubuntu7 | 02:00 |
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| mvo | <pitti> can anyone else on *latest* dapper please try to build zsh and see whether dh_strip aborts with an "Invalid operation"? <- you meant latest edgy? | 02:01 |
| pitti | erm, of course | 02:02 |
| pitti | sorry | 02:02 |
| mvo | :) | 02:02 |
| mvo | ok, that explains why it build here :) | 02:02 |
| pitti | mvo, rodarvus: bug 55880, in case you can add some confirmations | 02:03 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55880 in glibc "libc6 2.4-1ubuntu7 adds gnu debuglinks by default" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55880 | 02:03 |
| === pitti reboots to test the new X server | ||
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| pitti | rodarvus: no noticeable difference with the new x server | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | yaya | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | must mean this version is perfect | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | I'll upload it right away | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | pitti, thanks! | 02:08 |
| ogra | bugfree and all ? | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | ogra, X never has bugs | 02:08 |
| rodarvus | its always fault of the kernel, gnome/kde, etc | 02:09 |
| ogra | yeah, tell that to malone :) | 02:09 |
| rodarvus | ogra, all X bugs are there because I'm lazy to properly redirect them to their real owners :P | 02:09 |
| seb128 | what should be done with bugs like bug #55865 ? | 02:10 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55865 in Ubuntu "[Edgy] Please remove obsolete libnautilus-burn3 from archive" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55865 | 02:10 |
| ogra | its like ltsp ... there are only network hardware probs, but no bugs :P | 02:10 |
| seb128 | reassigning to ubuntu-archive? | 02:10 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: can it. user was wrong. | 02:11 |
| Hobbsee | s/can/traschcan/ | 02:11 |
| slomo | seb128: ubuntu-archive only wants to be subscribed iirc... but this one can maybe even be rejected... they will remove the old binaries anyway next time | 02:11 |
| pitti | seb128: not reassign, subscribe it | 02:12 |
| seb128 | pitti: it's already subscribed | 02:15 |
| pitti | rodarvus: hm, another nice test - the build should fail since it builds a -dbg :) | 02:15 |
| seb128 | pitti: but I don't want to take the bug and I don't want to let it unassigned | 02:15 |
| rodarvus | heh | 02:15 |
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| pitti | seb128: unassigning should work as long as -archive is sub'ed | 02:15 |
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| seb128 | pitti: right, but the bug stays as noise for bug triagers then | 02:16 |
| pitti | seb128: well, it should disappear automatically anyway... | 02:17 |
| pitti | it's the standard NBS case | 02:17 |
| === pitti hugs mvo for the new u-n | ||
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| Riddell | pitti: builds with -dbg fail now? | 02:24 |
| pitti | Riddell: yes, see bug 55880 | 02:25 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55880 in glibc "libc6 2.4-1ubuntu7 adds gnu debuglinks by default" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55880 | 02:25 |
| Riddell | pitti: ok, that'll be all the KDE packages needing changed then :) | 02:25 |
| pitti | Riddell: no, don't | 02:26 |
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| pitti | Riddell: either we'll fix it in glibc or in debhelper/pkg-create-dbgsym | 02:26 |
| Riddell | yeah, just read the bug | 02:26 |
| pitti | Riddell: I wait until jbailey wakes up to discuss it with him | 02:28 |
| pitti | I didn't find anything in the glibc changelog | 02:28 |
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| cprov | who is Gauvain Pocentek <gauvainpocentek@ubuntu.com> ? | 02:50 |
| ogra | Gloubiboulga | 02:52 |
| cprov | ogra: tks | 02:52 |
| ogra | btw, using your own tools helps ;) https://launchpad.net/people/gauvainpocentek | 02:53 |
| Gloubiboulga | bug 55795 | 02:53 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55795 in launchpad "replaces Debian maintainer by Ubuntu maintainer in changelog" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55795 | 02:53 |
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| ogra | Gloubiboulga, thats a duplicate | 02:53 |
| ogra | err, oh | 02:53 |
| ogra | ignore me ... | 02:54 |
| StevenK | How the hell is that a bug? | 02:54 |
| ogra | thats no bug | 02:55 |
| ogra | the one who made the last change has to show up in the changelog | 02:55 |
| StevenK | Like I said. | 02:55 |
| desrt | erm | 02:56 |
| desrt | that probably is a bug. | 02:56 |
| ogra | desrt, ? | 02:56 |
| desrt | he took the upstream changelog entry directly and changed only the name | 02:56 |
| desrt | if he changed other stuff to he should have done | 02:56 |
| desrt | [ Changes by _____ ] | 02:56 |
| desrt | then added his own changes | 02:57 |
| desrt | *too | 02:57 |
| ogra | * Resynchronise with Debian. | 02:57 |
| ogra | thats enough if a package has ubuntuX versions before and after the merge | 02:57 |
| desrt | that's very old | 02:57 |
| desrt | there shouldn't be an ubuntu maintainer's name on a non ubuntu version, though | 02:58 |
| ogra | stillflame, it has ubuntu specific changes, so the name of the person making these changes is the right one for the changelog | 02:58 |
| desrt | they should do the synch, preserving the debian changelog and then have their name on the change -after- the synch | 02:58 |
| ogra | right, if it would have been synced that wouldnt happen at all | 02:58 |
| ogra | but it was maerged | 02:58 |
| ogra | *merged | 02:58 |
| ogra | so thats perfectly right | 02:59 |
| desrt | well. seems fishy to me. | 03:01 |
| ogra | it names the person who was responsibe for the manual merging between the last and the current ubuntuX version ... | 03:03 |
| desrt | the merging occured as work going into the ubuntu1 version and should be listed there | 03:03 |
| desrt | it wasn't done as work going into the upstream version (2.0.7-3) and therefore should _not_ be listed there | 03:03 |
| desrt | (and, in fact, it isn't listed there at all -- only the name has changed) | 03:04 |
| ogra | you mean it should have two different entries ? | 03:04 |
| desrt | i would imagine so | 03:04 |
| desrt | considering it already has what appears to be two somewhat broken entries | 03:04 |
| desrt | discover (2.0.7-3ubuntu1) edgy; urgency=low | 03:04 |
| desrt | discover (2.0.7-3) unstable; urgency=low | 03:04 |
| desrt | to most people this doesn't look like a single changelog entry. i think that's the problem. | 03:05 |
| desrt | if he was doing that it should read like | 03:06 |
| desrt | discover -3ubuntu1 | 03:06 |
| desrt | *merge | 03:06 |
| desrt | -list of | 03:06 |
| desrt | -changes from | 03:06 |
| desrt | -debian | 03:06 |
| jdub | rodarvus: 003_fedora_root_window_black_pattern.patch -> we already get that by doing -br in gdm.conf | 03:06 |
| ogra | Gloubiboulga, does xubuntu have no pointrelease ? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/re...6.1/release.1/ is mentioned in the announcement, but doesnt seem to exists | 03:06 |
| desrt | -- guy <foo@ubuntu.com> | 03:06 |
| jdub | rodarvus: better to use configuration than patching :-) | 03:06 |
| rodarvus | jdub, nice, thanks for the heads up :) | 03:07 |
| rodarvus | I'll remove it in the next package upload | 03:07 |
| rodarvus | jdub, xubuntu and kubuntu do it in their windowmanagers too? | 03:07 |
| ogra | desrt, that would extend the merge work a lot ... we rely on dpkg-genchanges -v doing the right thing usually | 03:07 |
| rodarvus | (... do you know if...) :) | 03:07 |
| jdub | rodarvus: no idea | 03:07 |
| Gloubiboulga | ogra, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/dapper/release.1/ | 03:08 |
| ogra | instead of reformatting the whole changelog :) | 03:08 |
| jdub | what does xubuntu use for it's display manager anyway? | 03:08 |
| === Hobbsee suspects keybuk will hate her soon. if he doesnt all ready. | ||
| desrt | jdub; gdm | 03:08 |
| ogra | Gloubiboulga, hmm, the link in the announcement is wrong then | 03:08 |
| desrt | jdub; with a nice blue theme | 03:08 |
| ogra | http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/6.06.1/release.1/ | 03:08 |
| jdub | rodarvus: so there's your answer for xubuntu; check kdm for kubutu ;-) | 03:08 |
| jdub | desrt: thanks ;) | 03:08 |
| rodarvus | doesn't gdm requires the gnome stack to be installed? | 03:08 |
| jdub | YAYAYAY CAIRO! | 03:09 |
| rodarvus | I should install xubuntu one of these days | 03:09 |
| Riddell | rodarvus: yes (kubuntu does) | 03:09 |
| jdub | rodarvus: yeah, care of gnome-canvas | 03:09 |
| robertj | can anyone suggest a way to be more...spontanious? my /random is running short :( | 03:09 |
| robertj | and the mouse isn't in easy reach | 03:10 |
| Spads | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 2006-08-10 14:09 /dev/ass -> urandom | 03:10 |
| rodarvus | jdub, desrt, Riddell: thanks again! | 03:10 |
| Gloubiboulga | rodarvus, gdm only depends on gconf IIRC | 03:11 |
| Gloubiboulga | but not on all the gnome libs | 03:11 |
| ogra | gdm on gconf ? | 03:12 |
| ogra | what for ? | 03:12 |
| sladen | jdub: sadly cairo is not Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, good. If it were, people like Inkscape would be wanting to use it in preference to stucking with libart. See: http://www.xaraxtreme.org/about/performance.html for how much, er, "potential" and loving cairo needs to receive. | 03:13 |
| jdub | sladen: i know all about cairo's issues; i am merely celebrating 1.2.2 being in the repos | 03:13 |
| ogra | it depends on libgnomecanvas2-0 and thus on gnome ... | 03:13 |
| jdub | ogra: though i see now that gnomecanvas has tidied up depends now | 03:14 |
| Gloubiboulga | ogra, err, you're right | 03:14 |
| ogra | jdub, right ... but enough to not dep on gnome anymore ? | 03:15 |
| jdub | ogra: look at libgnomecanvas2-0 depends | 03:15 |
| ogra | yeah, i'm just doing that ... nice ! :) | 03:15 |
| jdub | ogra: schmick compared to what it used to be like | 03:15 |
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| lool | hmm is dholbach on holidays? | 03:24 |
| lool | looks like it | 03:24 |
| pitti | hi lool | 03:25 |
| lool | hi pitti! | 03:27 |
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| seb128 | lool: yep, until the wiesbaden sprint in 10 days | 03:49 |
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| lool | seb128: thanks | 03:50 |
| Hobbsee | hi heno | 03:50 |
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| spike | hi | 03:50 |
| seb128 | np | 03:50 |
| spike | I was in the need of lndir, and it's not in the xutils pkgs, is there a reason for that? | 03:50 |
| spike | it's in the debian one | 03:50 |
| spike | and an apt-file search lndir will find some manpages references | 03:51 |
| spike | any idea? | 03:52 |
| azeem | spike: it got lost during the X modularization | 03:52 |
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| spike | azeem: I see. and it's definitely lost or what? should I raise a bug if one doesnt exist already? | 03:54 |
| azeem | spike: I suggest filing a wishlist for moreutils in Debian to include it (and point them to the source or attach it) | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | spike, lndir is part of xutils-dev | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | which is present on Ubuntu Edgy. | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | rodarvus@wakko:~$ dpkg -L xutils-dev | grep lndir | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | /usr/share/man/man1/lndir.1x.gz | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | /usr/bin/lndir | 03:55 |
| rodarvus | rodarvus@wakko:~$ | 03:55 |
| azeem | seems packages.u.c is broken WRT contents and edgy | 03:57 |
| spike | rodarvus: uhm, how does it come apt-file search wont find it? nor http://packages.ubuntu.com/ | 03:57 |
| azeem | "You have searched for the contents of xutils-dev in edgy, architecture i386. | 03:57 |
| azeem | Can't find that package, at least not in that distribution and on that architecture" | 03:57 |
| rodarvus | spike, *shrugs* | 03:57 |
| rodarvus | maybe it hasn't been updated for new packages in edgy? | 03:57 |
| rodarvus | xutils-dev is a new package | 03:58 |
| spike | oh, nm, my bad, I was thinking of dapper | 03:58 |
| spike | indeed, sorry | 03:58 |
| heno | Hobbsee: hello :) | 04:02 |
| Hobbsee | :) | 04:02 |
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| nags | seb128, one help regarding libwnck, can I ask you ? | 04:05 |
| seb128 | nags: sure | 04:05 |
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| icecrash | moin | 04:05 |
| nags | seb128, copied gok-windowlister.c and trying to write a small program, to bring a bg window to fg | 04:06 |
| nags | seb128, Casanova tried this - http://pastebin.ca/125165 | 04:06 |
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| nags | seb128, we both are getting segfault in screen.c | 04:07 |
| nags | seb128, #0 0xb7ecd4ba in wnck_screen_get_default () at screen.c:468 | 04:07 |
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| seb128 | nags: why do you fflush(stdout); every time you printf something? just curious | 04:08 |
| nags | wnck_screen_get_default () actually calls _wnck_event_filter_init (); | 04:08 |
| nags | Casanova, ^^^^ ? | 04:08 |
| Casanova | seb128: i just wanted to know where it segfaulted :D | 04:08 |
| seb128 | Casanova: if you printf("message\n"); that should be enough, no need to fflush | 04:09 |
| Casanova | seb128: hmm well it wasnt printing :) | 04:09 |
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| seb128 | Casanova: run gtk_init before calling refreshList | 04:13 |
| seb128 | nags: | 04:13 |
| Casanova | oh ok | 04:13 |
| nags | seb128, okay | 04:14 |
| seb128 | or gdk_init | 04:15 |
| seb128 | should be enough for that | 04:15 |
| nags | seb128, okay | 04:18 |
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| nags | seb128, Thanks, it works :) | 04:22 |
| seb128 | np | 04:22 |
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| Casanova | seb128: it still crashed on wnck_window_get_workspace (window_list_entry->data); | 04:26 |
| Casanova | any idea why? | 04:26 |
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| Casanova | oops | 04:27 |
| seb128 | Casanova: doesn't for me | 04:27 |
| Casanova | seb128: sorry my fault :) | 04:27 |
| seb128 | Casanova: are you sure window_list_entry != NULL? | 04:28 |
| seb128 | k | 04:28 |
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| LisaH | Hi....My name's Lisa and I'm writing an article for NewsForge.com about today's 6.06.1 release. I have a couple of questions for the developers if one of you has a minute. | 04:33 |
| Hobbsee | hi LisaH | 04:35 |
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| iwj | Feh, it trashes the homepage setting. Why ? | 04:39 |
| Kamion | ogra: fixed the xubuntu point release link to work; thanks | 04:39 |
| ogra | :) | 04:40 |
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| ogra | Kamion, that really shouldnt have been your task | 04:40 |
| Kamion | (waiting for mirrors to sync; mirnyy's being slow) | 04:40 |
| ogra | go away from IRC !! | 04:40 |
| Kamion | *shrug* it was just a missing symlink | 04:40 |
| ogra | :) | 04:40 |
| Hobbsee | Kamion: excuses excuses. now take a holiday :P | 04:41 |
| Kamion | don't worry, I am | 04:41 |
| Kamion | IRC != work | 04:41 |
| Hobbsee | Kamion: surely that depends as to whether it's on or offtopic? | 04:41 |
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| infinity | LisaH: Are you looking for an interview with someone, PR fluff, or just to clear up a few random points? | 04:50 |
| pitti | LisaH: might be best to just ask the questions here | 04:56 |
| LisaH | Thanks...I've got a few chats going on at the moment but I may be back here for some further questions. | 04:57 |
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| pitti | BenC: ah, cool; from looking at the git commits, I only saw pid and signal number passed to the crash dump helper | 05:15 |
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| BenC | pitti: You probably saw the case where the core size is greater than the apport temp size, there's a second part where the helper gets called with the core file name | 05:16 |
| pitti | BenC: hm, I looked at both in http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-2.6.git;a=blob;h=45b34f79920db4bbe3ae05711dc18a9c5161fe0b;hb=6955793faeb05f4a73ec25b7b59e9d5e036a7793;f=fs/exec.c | 05:18 |
| pitti | BenC: lines 1514 and 1572 | 05:18 |
| pitti | BenC: aaah, now I see | 05:18 |
| pitti | must have been bling | 05:18 |
| pitti | blind, too | 05:18 |
| pitti | BenC: sorry for the fuss! | 05:18 |
| BenC | np :) | 05:19 |
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| Keybuk | so, what methods of intelligent design have people followed that worked for them? | 06:08 |
| Keybuk | sfllaw: you mentioned that there are sane ways? | 06:08 |
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| doko | Keybuk, infinity, Kamion, mdz: please do not process the new binaries from the gcj-4.1 source until it's built on all architectures | 06:09 |
| pitti | Keybuk: the only method that really worked for me was iterative design while comparing to a wide range of use cases | 06:09 |
| Keybuk | doko: normally we don't anyway | 06:09 |
| Keybuk | due to bugs in Soyuz | 06:09 |
| === infinity makes of a note of one more thing that's going to break when he bootstraps hppa. | ||
| infinity | \o/ | 06:10 |
| infinity | That's going to be a painful week. | 06:10 |
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| Keybuk | infinity: let Lamont do it <g> | 06:10 |
| sfllaw | Keybuk: The parts of upfront design that are useful are those that define the problem. | 06:10 |
| Keybuk | "your toy architecture, your flaming beige plastic anal violation" | 06:10 |
| infinity | Nah, then I wouldn't have anything to complain about. | 06:10 |
| infinity | Besides, it's my toy arch too. Or one of them. | 06:10 |
| sfllaw | So requirements specs, like "what problems need to be solved". | 06:11 |
| sfllaw | That's actually really hard. | 06:11 |
| sfllaw | Because most people think of solutions before problems. | 06:11 |
| sfllaw | Which is where you get into trouble. | 06:11 |
| Keybuk | sfllaw: yeah, that's the part I really enjoy | 06:11 |
| Keybuk | my problem comes when it comes to the actual coding | 06:11 |
| Keybuk | I find if I've spent too long designing it, especially at the code level, I get a kind of "coder's block" and can't actually write it | 06:11 |
| sfllaw | When it comes to coding, if you've thought which problems need solving, you don't need to specify the implementation too much. | 06:11 |
| sfllaw | Lots of what is fun about coding is encountering a problem and then solving it on the fly. | 06:12 |
| Keybuk | Matt was advocating a detailed advanced planning thing this time around, so that time estimates would be possible | 06:12 |
| Keybuk | where you break the code down into very small tasks, and work them out by the hour how long they take | 06:12 |
| sfllaw | If you pull the problems into the specification process, you can hold them all in your head at the same time. | 06:12 |
| sfllaw | Oh. | 06:12 |
| sfllaw | That's really hard. | 06:12 |
| sfllaw | The best I can find for scheduling is Joel's Painless Software Scheduling. | 06:13 |
| sfllaw | But even that gives you slack. | 06:13 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: What's responsible for generating the /dev/disk/by-label directory? | 06:13 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: udev rules (65-persistent-storage.rules) | 06:13 |
| sfllaw | I don't like implementation specs too much. | 06:13 |
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| Keybuk | mjg59: it uses vol_id to find the label of the disk | 06:13 |
| sfllaw | I don't even like functional specs, except for specifying infrastructure and API/ABIs. | 06:14 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Ok. If I create a partition, how do I provoke it into appearing? | 06:14 |
| sfllaw | That's because interoperability is sometimes valuable. | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: normally it should just appear when the kernel sends out the uevent | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | though the kernel is not always good at this | 06:14 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: I've done a mkswap /dev/hda3 -L swap | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | ahh | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | right | 06:14 |
| mjg59 | And blkid | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | block device != partition | 06:14 |
| mjg59 | But no by-label | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | you mean filesystem | 06:14 |
| mjg59 | Yes, sorry | 06:14 |
| Keybuk | echo -n add > /sys/block/hda/hda3/uevent | 06:15 |
| mjg59 | Ok, that works | 06:15 |
| mjg59 | Next issue | 06:15 |
| Keybuk | it's a long-standing bug of mine that the kernel deals with block devices not partitions ;) | 06:15 |
| Keybuk | gah, FILESYSTEMS | 06:15 |
| mjg59 | If I have a vfat partition, and then mkswap it, libblkid seems to find the fat UUID rather than the swap one | 06:15 |
| Keybuk | yes | 06:15 |
| Keybuk | vol_id has a similar problem with fat/ext3 I believe | 06:16 |
| mjg59 | I'm not sure if that's helpful, though I guess it doesn't break anything | 06:16 |
| Keybuk | partman deliberately zeros the partition bits first | 06:16 |
| Keybuk | right, it won't break anything, it just means things are ... wrong ;) | 06:16 |
| mjg59 | And thirdly: | 06:16 |
| mjg59 | blkid doesn't seem to find my swap uuid/label when it contains a suspended image | 06:16 |
| Keybuk | indeed | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | blkid is rubbish | 06:17 |
| mjg59 | So resume from disk is broken right now | 06:17 |
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| Keybuk | at the sprint, I'm going to sit down with tollef and get mount to use vol_id instead | 06:17 |
| mjg59 | Presumably it just needs teaching about where they live? | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | yeah, but it's less effort to just do the vol_id change | 06:17 |
| mjg59 | Mount's not the issue here | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | SuSE already patched it | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | oh, what is the issue? | 06:17 |
| mjg59 | It's a swap partitoin | 06:17 |
| Keybuk | s/mount/util-linux/ | 06:17 |
| mjg59 | Ah, right | 06:18 |
| Keybuk | they all use the common code | 06:18 |
| mjg59 | Yes, that makes more sense | 06:18 |
| Keybuk | sorry | 06:18 |
| Keybuk | there are other issues anyway, like blkid doesn't seem to support fat uuids | 06:18 |
| mjg59 | I'll look at blkid anyway, since I'd like this to work before then | 06:18 |
| mjg59 | I'm playing with uswsusp. It seems to have the potential to be quite a bit faster than swsusp. | 06:18 |
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| mjg59 | (Back in a moment, need to change my buffers) | 06:18 |
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| mjg59 | Ok | 06:21 |
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| zul | hi | 06:36 |
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| mjg59 | Keybuk: Turns out to be a trivial patch, by the looks of things | 06:48 |
| Keybuk | unsurprising | 06:49 |
| Keybuk | the vol_id patch was tiny also | 06:49 |
| mjg59 | It actually deals with the standard image, just not the userspace one... | 06:49 |
| mjg59 | Testingnow | 06:49 |
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| nags | seb128, I have some queries with respect to libwnck, whom shall I ask ? | 06:55 |
| === Keybuk sniggers | ||
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Yeah, fixed | 07:02 |
| mjg59 | 4 extra lines | 07:02 |
| mjg59 | I'll upload now | 07:03 |
| elmo | hey, my gnome thinks my machine is at 2% battery when it has 2 hours remaining - how do I kick it to uncache those values | 07:03 |
| elmo | +? | 07:03 |
| pitti | elmo: try /etc/dbus-1/event.d/20hal restart | 07:05 |
| elmo | pitti: it's been like this for months | 07:05 |
| elmo | pitti: so I can't imagine restarting anything'll help | 07:05 |
| elmo | the problem is when I first installed ubuntu on the machine, the battery was fried (I'd done a partial 'drain-recharge' cycle in the BIOS), so back then, it really did only last a couple of minutes | 07:06 |
| pitti | oh | 07:06 |
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| mjg59 | Keybuk: Hm. So udev uses libvolid to find swap labels and stuff? | 07:12 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: right | 07:13 |
| mjg59 | Ok | 07:13 |
| === mjg59 goes to fix it there too | ||
| Keybuk | fix which? | 07:13 |
| Keybuk | I may have already fixed whatever you're planning to fix there | 07:13 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: volume_id doesn't appear to detect my suspended swap partition | 07:14 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: the edgy one? | 07:14 |
| Keybuk | should do | 07:14 |
| mjg59 | Yeah | 07:14 |
| mjg59 | Hm | 07:14 |
| Keybuk | there's definitely a patch for that in there, and I tested it a bit | 07:14 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: It needs to recognise ULSUSPEND as well as S1SUSPEND | 07:15 |
| Keybuk | aha! | 07:15 |
| Keybuk | yes, fix that | 07:15 |
| Keybuk | just modify the existing patch | 07:15 |
| mjg59 | Oh god what's the right way to do this? | 07:15 |
| Keybuk | debian/patches/60-vol_id-swap.patch | 07:16 |
| Keybuk | add | 07:16 |
| mjg59 | Patch it without that patch, add the patch, generate the diff, replace the original patch? | 07:16 |
| Keybuk | oh | 07:16 |
| Keybuk | yeah | 07:16 |
| Keybuk | I just apply the patch, tinker with it, and diff against the orig | 07:16 |
| === Keybuk and complicated patch systems don't get on | ||
| Keybuk | so I do things the very hard way | 07:19 |
| mjg59 | http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/60-vol_id-swap.patch look ok? | 07:19 |
| Keybuk | missing a == 0) in there :p | 07:19 |
| Keybuk | the ) is especially important | 07:20 |
| mjg59 | Oops | 07:20 |
| mjg59 | Try again? | 07:20 |
| Keybuk | looks right | 07:20 |
| mjg59 | Ok, testing now | 07:20 |
| sladen | rodarvus: can you remember what the current work around for "cannot find font fixed is" (bug #54809) ? | 07:43 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 54809 in Ubuntu "X server cannot find default font `fixed'" [Untriaged,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/54809 | 07:43 |
| gnomefreak | yes ;) | 07:46 |
| gnomefreak | sladen: remove --purge xserver-xorg-core xorg and xserver-xorg than install them it should fix it (atleast it did for a few of us) | 07:47 |
| ogra | sladen, run mkfontdir in the misc font directory fixes it | 07:48 |
| gnomefreak | of course :( you could take the easy way :( | 07:49 |
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| sladen | ogra: no, that doesn't fix it here. | 07:49 |
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| ogra | oh ? | 07:50 |
| ogra | thats intresting then | 07:50 |
| sladen | ogra: and even if I fix things to point to the /right/ directory it doesn't fix it | 07:50 |
| ogra | well, its not broken here currently ... i built a ltsp chroot today that starts X just fine ... hmm | 07:51 |
| sladen | gnomefreak: nope, apt-get --purge --reinstall install ... didn't help | 07:51 |
| gnomefreak | sladen: no dont use --reinstall | 07:51 |
| sladen | gnomefreak: thanks for the pointer though | 07:51 |
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| ogra | sladen, /usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/fonts.dir exists ? | 07:51 |
| gnomefreak | for some reason --reinstall doesnt fully do what you would like it to do | 07:51 |
| sladen | gnomefreak: well it doesn't remove the dependancies, which if it does work means it's one of those that is broken | 07:52 |
| gnomefreak | sladen: i couldnt get --reinstall to work with that i had to remove --purge than apt-get install and it fixed it | 07:52 |
| gnomefreak | it removes the 3 -desktop packages and something else (cant think of it offhand) with the X packages | 07:53 |
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| treitter | what creates "md5sums" in control.tar.gz ? | 07:58 |
| treitter | dpkg, or do I do it? | 07:58 |
| pitti | treitter: dh_md5sums | 07:59 |
| pitti | treitter: it's not essential (only used by debsums), but still nice to have | 07:59 |
| treitter | pitti: invoked directly, or does something else call that? | 07:59 |
| pitti | treitter: cdbs calls it automatically, with just debhelper it's your job AFAIK | 08:00 |
| treitter | pitti: now I have to look up cdbs :) | 08:00 |
| treitter | ah. cdbs requires Makefiles, right? | 08:01 |
| treitter | my project doesn't use Makefiles (at least when I pick it up and package it) | 08:01 |
| pitti | treitter: not any more or less than plain debhelper packages | 08:01 |
| pitti | treitter: don't worry about it if you don't know cdbs or don't want to use it | 08:02 |
| treitter | pitti: cool. Thanks :) | 08:02 |
| treitter | ..so dpkg requires all the control files in ${PKG}/DEBIAN, while dh_md5sums requires them in ${PKG}/debian | 08:04 |
| treitter | hmm. I don't think dh_md5sums is ideal for what I'm doing. I'll just use md5sum directly | 08:06 |
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| Burgwork | sabdfl, I love it when you fix my bugs and then blog about them | 08:23 |
| sladen | ogra: ...so, half the places refer to 'X11/fonts' and the other half to 'fonts/X11', meaning that the fonts end up in one, but the aliases that maps 'fixed' end up in the other... | 08:25 |
| mdke | Burgwork: that happens a lot? | 08:25 |
| Burgwork | mdke, no, not really, but the essential people one is my bug from UBZ, when we had people not being at spec bofs because of the lack of it | 08:26 |
| mdke | oh, that post, nice | 08:27 |
| doko | pitti: will you upload glibc tonight? | 08:28 |
| pitti | doko: yes, after pkg-create-dbgsym is in the archive | 08:28 |
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| mjg59 | Whee. That works. | 08:39 |
| mjg59 | Now it just needs some usplash loving. | 08:40 |
| Surak | when there are more than one video board plugged on a machine, how does hwdata chooses which one it should use? | 08:41 |
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| Surak | I have a particular case where Xorg.0.log says: "(II) Primary Device is: PCI 01:00:0", but the Live CD tries to use the other video card - which is disabled in bios, but still appears in device list. It appears first, but it's not necessairly the primary one.... | 08:48 |
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| Surak | sorry, I mean "discover", from discover1 package, not hwdata. | 08:57 |
| Keybuk | init:stop_my_job: Timer to stop job called | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | init: Goal change: stop test | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | init:job_kill_process: Sending TERM signal to test process (27481) | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | init:my_reaper: Child 27481 killed by Terminated | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | init: test process (27481) killed by signal 15 | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | init: State change: test: running to stopping | 09:04 |
| Keybuk | \o/ | 09:04 |
| sladen | Surak: is there a bug report for it, can you file one? | 09:06 |
| sladen | go Keybuk, now --fomg-optimize is so that the gentoo wannabe's quit moaning :) | 09:07 |
| Keybuk | heh | 09:08 |
| Surak | sladen: I was asking before, so I would post the bug more concisely. I found that /sbin/discover ignores which video board is the primary (as noted in Xorg.0.log), it only lists them in the same order as lspci does. However, would this be a bug from discover or from xserver-xorg's configure script? | 09:09 |
| Surak | g/as/that | 09:10 |
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| mdz | mjg59: what's uswsusp? | 09:18 |
| sladen | mdz: userspace suspend | 09:20 |
| sladen | mdz: suspend for nice people, without the gash | 09:21 |
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| mjg59 | mdz: Suspend to disk with compression and potentially graphical niceness | 09:24 |
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| Burgwork | mdz, just realized something about the .1 release announcement. We shoudl make it very clear that merely upgrading will achieive the same result | 09:27 |
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| nate | Is the CD-Images rsync down? | 09:36 |
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| mdz | Burgwork: it's already gone out | 09:57 |
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| Burgwork | mdz, yep, I realize that. But for the .2 release notes | 10:01 |
| treitter | is there a way to have dpkg-deb ignore specific files (like .cvs or .svn dirs), or is it expected that you'll remove them yourself as necessary? | 10:01 |
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| sladen | mdz: what's the best way of dealing with packages that have gone from '6.8.2.1-5' to version '1.0.0-6ubuntu3' ? The downgrade is causing upgrade problems | 10:03 |
| zul | http://70.29.57.2/ubuntu/xen-edgy-within-edgy.png | 10:03 |
| Spads | sweet | 10:03 |
| sladen | zul: excellent news, shall we fridge it :) | 10:04 |
| crimsun | sladen: err, that should have an epoch. Which packages? | 10:04 |
| sladen | crimsun: xfonts-utils | 10:04 |
| zul | sladen: if you want maybe i should clean up my desktop first though :) | 10:04 |
| rodarvus | sladen, the right is 1:1.0.0-foo | 10:05 |
| rodarvus | (or, "use epochs" :) ) | 10:05 |
| crimsun | that's odd, since it /does/ have an epoch | 10:05 |
| sladen | zul: I can't see anything dodgey on there, I don't /think/ | 10:05 |
| Spads | zul: win32! | 10:05 |
| zul | i have a couple of torrents on my desktop i think | 10:05 |
| rodarvus | sladen, are you sure you didn't forgot to add the epoch to your last changelog entry? | 10:06 |
| rodarvus | most likely the case here | 10:06 |
| crimsun | rodarvus: (meaning to me? It's present.) | 10:06 |
| sladen | rodarvus: I haven't done an upload, this is the result of doing an dapper->edgy upgrade | 10:06 |
| rodarvus | crimsun, well, or you :) (/me didn't read the backlog) | 10:07 |
| crimsun | I'm quite sure, since I used dch -i and double-checked before uploading | 10:07 |
| rodarvus | xfonts-utils | 1:1.0.0-6ubuntu3 | http://archive.ubuntu.com edgy/main Sources | 10:07 |
| rodarvus | this is what I have here | 10:07 |
| crimsun | sladen: what is dpkg spitting out? | 10:08 |
| mdz | sladen: that's not a downgrade, that's a change in upstream numbering (hence the epoch) | 10:09 |
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| mdz | if the upgrade isn't working properly, it's a bug | 10:09 |
| sladen | crimsun: the epooch appears to be there in your upload | 10:09 |
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| crimsun | right. With what errors is dpkg bailing? | 10:10 |
| mdz | treitter: by the time you reach dpkg-deb, anything you don't want should have been excluded earlier | 10:11 |
| mdz | treitter: dpkg-deb just packs up the installed tree; if you don't want those files there, don't install them | 10:11 |
| treitter | mdz: yeah, that's what I thought. My situation is a little different, though. So I can handle it on my own :) | 10:12 |
| treitter | mdz: thanks | 10:12 |
| sladen | crimsun: I think the problem simple comes down to all the packages calling it with --new-option not depending on (>= 1:1.0.0-4) which is when the new option was introduced. It's still a bit disgusting that X completely breaks from something so simple. The lack of 'fixed' was the cause of something previously and having a rock-solid way of having at least one font available seems to be a bit like us providing busybox when your root partition can't | 10:15 |
| libervisco | hey guys | 10:15 |
| sladen | hello there libervisco, is the weather nice where you are. It's getting a bit dark here and earlier it was raining | 10:15 |
| libervisco | Where do you go if you badly need contributors for your software project? | 10:15 |
| libervisco | ehh yeah weather is ok.. kind of cloudy though :) | 10:16 |
| sladen | libervisco: who is "you" in this case, ubuntu, or yourself? | 10:16 |
| libervisco | any developer with a project in need | 10:16 |
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| libervisco | I'm just trying to check if there is a site or service that enables devs to list their project as "in need of contributors" | 10:17 |
| libervisco | because I would like to open one | 10:17 |
| libervisco | on our site | 10:17 |
| libervisco | do you think it would be of help? | 10:18 |
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| Surak | sladen: done. bug #55928 . I think I explained enough, but that's me :-) I can provide more information if needed | 10:24 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55928 in xorg "xorg's configure script doesn't detect primary video adapter properly in multi-video environments." [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55928 | 10:24 |
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| sladen | Surak: okay, many thanks for that. | 10:27 |
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| Surak | regarding the broken bios, I've sent similar reports to intel and msi on several different modern motherboards that shows the issue. MSI is receptive to my reports lately. | 10:35 |
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| sladen | Surak: remind me what the broken BIOS issue was? ACPI DSDT? | 10:38 |
| sladen | excellent to know that MSI are listening | 10:39 |
| Surak | oh, it's on that bug. The fact that even when you disable integrated video, it still appears on pci device list | 10:39 |
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| bluefoxicy | fabbione: after consulting several network engineers it seems we've all concluded that attaching two routers to eachother through a switch housing another subnet will exponentially increase the load on the involved port on the default gateway as the two subnets grow; whereas connecting the two routers over a dedicated router-to-router link results in linear growth | 11:04 |
| bluefoxicy | s/exponentially/polynomially/g | 11:04 |
| bluefoxicy | so yeah, my point stands and has been validated: that design is brain damage. | 11:04 |
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| Riddell | jordi: ping | 11:20 |
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| bluefoxicy | .... someone should figure out why Evolution needs 571 megs of memory (I just freed 400M of swap and 200M of RAM o_O) to manage around 400 messages, while Thunderbird (started at the same time) is using 185M to manage a few hundred thousand (other account is subscribed to about 30 mailing lists) | 11:51 |
| Burgwork | bluefoxicy, evo memory issues are being worked out | 11:53 |
| Surak | hum... how did you measure this? | 11:53 |
| bluefoxicy | Surak: well, first off i looked at virtual and figured out how much it thinks is there; second, I closed evo and went fro 960M used (270 cached) and 860 swap to 660 used (330 cached) and 440 swap | 11:54 |
| bluefoxicy | so 690 + 860 -> 330 + 440 == 1550 -> 770, ... wtf. That's more than 571 megs, how is that even possible.. oh. I didn't count the evolution data server. | 11:55 |
| bluefoxicy | htf much was that reporting mapped into VMA, I didn't look :| | 11:55 |
| zyga | bluefoxicy: fragmentation probably | 11:55 |
| bluefoxicy | zyga: nods | 11:56 |
| bluefoxicy | Surak: point is I tend to open and close apps and see what the system thinks they're doing to memory. | 11:56 |
| Surak | hum, ok | 11:56 |
| bluefoxicy | I eventually got down to around 400 megs total | 11:56 |
| bluefoxicy | by closing Firefox as well (I'm running FF 2.0) | 11:57 |
| bluefoxicy | FF2 seems to be a RAM hog | 11:57 |
| bluefoxicy | another silly question would be | 12:00 |
| bluefoxicy | why is libc6-amd64 installed on i386 | 12:00 |
| bluefoxicy | /lib64/libc-2.4.so: cannot execute binary file | 12:01 |
| pitti | good night everyone | 12:06 |
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