[12:23] <mvo> @schedule berlin
[12:23] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 10 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
[02:22] <RichEd> @now
[02:22] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 10 2006, 12:22:13 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 37 minutes
[02:22] <RichEd> @now johannesbugr
[02:22] <RichEd> @now johannesburg
[02:22] <Ubugtu> Current time in Africa/Johannesburg: August 10 2006, 14:22:28 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 37 minutes
[02:22] <RichEd> @schedule
[02:22] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 10 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 21:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00: Edubuntu
[02:32] <RichEd> @schedule Johannesburg
[02:32] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 10 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
[02:46] <digitalmouse> @now Berlin
[02:46] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Berlin: August 10 2006, 14:46:41 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 13 minutes
[03:50] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[03:50] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 11 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Aug 07:00: Kubuntu | 16 Aug 06:00: Technical Board | 17 Aug 06:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu
[04:51] <imbrandon> @schedule us/central
[04:51] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
[04:53] <pitti> hi everyone
[04:53] <pitti> Hey BenC 
[04:53] <ogra> heya
[04:54] <BenC> mdz: can you drop me a few slots on the list?
[04:54] <BenC> pitti: hey
[04:56] <BenC> pitti: hey, kernel upload got delayed, getting an upload ready now though
[04:57] <fschoep> Good evening everyone.
[04:57] <pitti> BenC: did you see my latest mail?
[04:57] <pitti> BenC: current state should work reasonably, but could use a small improvement
[04:58] <BenC> pitti: #u-k, let me know what you need and I can try to get it in
[04:59] <pitti> BenC: it's in the mail
[05:00] <pitti> BenC: but no hurry, it can be added later
[05:00] <Riddell> hi all
[05:03] <mvo> isn't it meeting time now?
[05:04] <iwj> I thought so.
[05:04] <pitti> yep, should
[05:04] <fschoep> I think so.
[05:04] <seb128> yep
[05:04] <pitti> mdz?
[05:04] <iwj> mdz, sfllaw ?
[05:04] <sfllaw> iwj: Yup.
[05:04] <sfllaw> iwj: It is.
[05:05] <sfllaw> I suppose if mdz doesn't show up, we can hold this meeting ourselves.
[05:05] <sfllaw> And just send him the log.
[05:05] <Riddell> I volunteer sfllaw to be our mdz
[05:05] <sfllaw> Oh great.
[05:05] <Keybuk> Riddell++
[05:05] <infinity> sfllaw: I suggest you chair the meeting and begin nowish.
[05:05] <BenC> pitti: I replied, the filename already gets passed
[05:05] <sfllaw> First mdz suckers me into sending out announcements...
[05:05] <sfllaw> Right.
[05:05] <iwj> sfllaw: You have a list of people ? :-)
[05:05] <sfllaw> Yeah.  Lemme look into this.
[05:05] <Riddell> list is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20060810
[05:05] <sfllaw> Has anyone seen jono?
[05:06] <BenC_mdz> I'll do it
[05:06] <Keybuk> is jono expected at these?
[05:06] <sfllaw> I suppose not.  But I think he was invited specifically to this one.
[05:06] <seb128> he has not started yet, so I would say he's not
[05:06] <sfllaw> Ah.  He asked about it in some e-mails.
[05:06] <sfllaw> infinity: Ping
[05:06] <Keybuk> I've text him just in case
[05:07] <sfllaw> Kamion: ping
[05:07] <Riddell> Kamion's on holiday
[05:07] <Riddell> infinity is here
[05:07] <infinity> sfllaw: Err, yes?  I just spoke to you. :)
[05:07] <sfllaw> fabbione: Ping.
[05:07] <rodarvus> is someone able to sms/phone mdz?
[05:07] <sfllaw> infinity: Sorry.
[05:07] <fschoep> kwwii (Kenneth Wimer) is on a holiday as well I think
[05:07] <fabbione> sfllaw: i am on paternity leave
[05:07] <sfllaw> Is dholbach on holiday too?
[05:07] <fabbione> sfllaw: i have been for the last almost 2 weeks
[05:07] <sfllaw> fabbione: Oh yeah.  Go back to being a father.
[05:07] <fabbione> sfllaw: thanks :)
[05:07] <sfllaw> heno: Ping.
[05:08] <seb128> sfllaw: dholbach is on holidays since today
[05:08] <Riddell> dholbach did depart saying he'd see us in Weisbiden
[05:08] <heno> sfllaw: pong
[05:08] <sfllaw> mvo: Ping.
[05:08] <mvo> hello sff
[05:08] <seb128> mvo should be around :)
[05:08] <mvo> hello sfllaw
[05:08] <doko> fabbione: don't play with your sun, it's your son :)
[05:08] <sfllaw> Any Mithrandir?
[05:08] <fabbione> doko: ..|.. ;)
[05:08] <mvo> have fun fabbione
[05:08] <fabbione> Mith is in honeymoon
[05:08] <Riddell> he's honeymooning
[05:08] <pitti> sfllaw: Mithrandir is on honeymoon
[05:08] <sfllaw> Man, all these people enjoying summer.
[05:09] <fabbione> sfllaw: today sucks to be you
[05:09] <seb128> sfllaw: holidays until sprint
[05:09] <ogra> if that calendar in th ecompany tool would be usable, we'd know ;)
[05:09] <sfllaw> Let's begin, shall we?
[05:09] <Riddell> welcome jono 
[05:09] <pitti> hi jono
[05:09] <jono> hi folks
[05:09] <sfllaw> jono: Hi.  I'd thought I'd invite you so you can see what we do.
[05:09] <Riddell> we're about to begin
[05:09] <seb128> sfllaw: do you sometime look on your mails? people usually send a mail saying they are on holidays and when they come back ;)
[05:09] <jono> sounds good, I will need to dip in and out thought
[05:09] <sfllaw> seb128: It drops out of my brain because I see too many bugs.
[05:09] <sfllaw> My attention span is now very small.
[05:10] <sfllaw> So let's do this in boring order.
[05:10] <sfllaw> infinity, you start first.
[05:10] <infinity> Last week:
[05:10] <infinity> - Discussions with pitti about .ddeb support on the buildds
[05:10] <infinity> - Work on new LRM (which will be a 2-part upload, after discussion with BenC, he'll do half, and I'll get the other half in shortly after him)
[05:10] <infinity> - Work on keeping the buildds limping along, with several measured and mass give-backs, and some by-hand bootstrapping of snags
[05:10] <infinity> - Violently mangle the livecd generation scripts and wrapper to allow building dapper livefses for Colin
[05:10] <infinity> - Start work and testing of the stacked filesystem infrastructure, almost complete, but rollout blocked on getting kernel support on the buildds
[05:10] <infinity> Next week:
[05:10] <infinity> - Finish stacked filesystem work, and bug elmo again about kernel support
[05:10] <infinity> - Sort out the changes required for debian-maintainer-field, and roll out to the buildds
[05:10] <infinity> - Continue to mangle buildds and build failures, as per usual
[05:10] <infinity> - Watch for fallout from impending LRM changes
[05:10] <ogra> mvo, enough for hugging :)
[05:10] <infinity> - Work on .ddeb support, as specced with pitti last week
[05:10] <Riddell> infinity: LRM?
[05:10] <infinity> *cough*
[05:11] <infinity> Riddell: linux-restricted-modules, sorry.  I'm a TLA whore.
[05:11] <iwj> infinity: What's a .ddeb ?
[05:11] <infinity> (Three Letter Acronym)
[05:11] <pitti> iwj: detached debug symbols
[05:11] <ogra> iwj, debugging deb
[05:11] <iwj> Oh, right, those things.
[05:11] <pitti> iwj: to be named .ddeb to get a different namespace
[05:11] <Keybuk> infinity: s/Acryonym/Abbreviation/
[05:11] <sfllaw> infinity: Are the buildds going to give us long-term trouble?  Could they hold up the release?
[05:11] <Keybuk> neither LRM or TLA are acronyms </pedant> :p
[05:12] <infinity> sfllaw: The buildds always give us trouble, that's why I have a job. :P
[05:12] <infinity> sfllaw: But they never seem to stop us from releasing, no.
[05:12] <sfllaw> Anyone else have questions?
[05:12] <sfllaw> OK.
[05:12] <sfllaw> BenC?
[05:12] <Riddell> thanks for the mass give backs infinity 
[05:12] <Keybuk> sfllaw: Soyuz automatically breaks whenever we have anything critical happening
[05:12] <imbrandon> heh
[05:13] <Riddell> BenC asked to be delayed i think
[05:13] <sfllaw> I must have missed that.
[05:14] <sfllaw> Kamion?
[05:14] <Riddell> holiday
[05:14] <sfllaw> fschoep?
[05:14] <rodarvus> sfllaw, you seem to have a very little attention span today :)
[05:14] <fschoep> Ongoing:
[05:14] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-login-manager, ubuntu-art-login-splash, ubuntu-art-usplash, ubuntu-art-wallpaper: cull proposals, choose direction
[05:14] <fschoep>  * art-polish-human-gtk-theme: identify areas for improvement, now with community backing till 10th of August
[05:14] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-complete-highcontrast-icons, : find and document icons which need work
[05:14] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-cd-dvd-artwork: communication with Jane / Kenneth on improving media package artwork
[05:14] <fschoep>  * starting up / assisting sound engineering
[05:14] <fschoep> To-do:
[05:14] <fschoep>  * finish submission of GTK theme tweaks, start coding good ideas
[05:14] <fschoep>  * approve artwork production directions, then kick off production phase for community artwork
[05:14] <fschoep>  * update the Human icon priority list with the contents of the PDF to-do list
[05:15] <fschoep> It was quite a slow week regarding artwork, but it's getting more interesting now.
[05:15] <Riddell> I think fschoep's report should include screenshots :)
[05:15] <sfllaw> That's mean.
[05:15] <ogra> asciiart !!!
[05:15] <cbx33> Riddell, and sound bytes :p
[05:15] <pitti> in ascii art? :)
[05:15] <fschoep> Riddell: I had some last time, this time it's kinda hard to do :)
[05:15] <cbx33> I'll start drawing ascii waveforms :p
[05:16] <iwj> fschoep: Did you know that firefox-themes-ubuntu doesn't work with ff 2.0 beta ?
[05:16] <fschoep> iwj: yes
[05:16] <ogra> iwj, btw, you didnt answer my ff theme question
[05:16] <iwj> ogra: Which one ?
[05:16] <ogra> iwj, cant we just replace the icons with different ones and keep the names ? would ff pick them up ?
[05:17] <ogra> s/names/names and paths/
[05:17] <iwj> ogra: I don't think that's a very good idea.  It would make the ff package build-depend on the artwork.
[05:17] <ogra> nd make the packages conflict
[05:17] <fschoep> ogra: iwj: maybe discuss this via e-mail?
[05:17] <ogra> yep
[05:17] <fschoep> CC me and I'll shine my light over it
[05:17] <sfllaw> Thanks.  Any other questions?
[05:17] <fschoep> I wasn't aware of any active problems right now, so I'm interested.
[05:17] <ogra> thats why i answered ... to the one on -devel ... just wanted to draw some attention :)
[05:18] <sfllaw> OK.
[05:18] <sfllaw> heno?
[05:18] <heno> Done:
[05:18] <heno>  * Attended the OATS project launch in London. Blog entry here: http://blog.omma.net/?p=7
[05:18] <heno>  * Further work on SOK (now called onBoard). A basic scanning feature and better layout customisation implemented. 
[05:18] <heno>  * Testing Orca/gnome-speech on Edgy. There are some problems with various applications still.
[05:18] <heno> Todo:
[05:18] <heno>  * Write a script for performing some AT setup tasks. Could possibly be a GUI as well. I can do the Glade work but I'll need help with the python (or whatever) back-end.
[05:18] <heno>  * livecd-access - no change - are there any gfxboot/LiveCD people who are not on holiday?
[05:19] <fschoep> heno: do you still need work on those keyboard layouts?
[05:20] <heno> fschoep: We have a fair number now, but I'm sure the design and colour choices could be better :)
[05:20] <fschoep> heno: OK, shall we e-mail on that to get you something beautiful then ?
[05:20] <heno> see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Projects/SOK/layouts
[05:21] <heno> yes please :)
[05:21] <fschoep> OK, noted.
[05:22] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[05:22] <sfllaw> iwj?
[05:22] <iwj> automated-testing-deployment: Snapshot resumption works.  Just need to glue it into autopkgtest now.  Currently on hold due to firefox 2 beta merge.
[05:22] <iwj> xen-edgy: No significant change since last week.  Chuck has included some shell script patches from me to improve virtual machine resumption time.
[05:22] <iwj> package-dependency-field-breaks: No activity this week.
[05:22] <iwj> suggest-packages-for-filetypes: Not started.
[05:22] <iwj> firefox 2.0 beta merge: Ug.  Currently testing/bugfixing.  There seems to be an incompatibility with the themes.  And other problems.
[05:23] <fschoep> iwj: I think I can help you majorly with the themes.
[05:23] <iwj> fschoep: Right.  When I get it working apart from that I'll get back to you.
[05:23] <fschoep> iwj: OK, thanks.
[05:23] <heno> me again: when does the gfxboot stuff freeze? How worried should I be about those changes not being implemented yet?
[05:23] <iwj> I'll upload it anyway and that way we can fix what's there.
[05:24] <iwj> fschoep: Thanks for the offer of help, though, I expect to need it.
[05:24] <fschoep> iwj: No problem, I got you into the theme things to begin with, so I'd better help you out.
[05:24] <iwj> :-)
[05:24] <fschoep> heno: is gfxboot about GRUB artwork?
[05:25] <rodarvus_> if someone said anything to me, please repeat - I lost my connection :/
[05:25] <heno> fschoep: no, about a large-icon menu in gfxboot
[05:25] <heno> with sounds
[05:25] <sfllaw> iwj: Do we expect Firefox to ship by September?  And if not, is the beta Good Enough?
[05:25] <Riddell> gfxboot is used for the CDs
[05:25] <pitti> rodarvus: nothing directly to you so far
[05:25] <fschoep> heno: OK, just checking, since it's not on my radar I'm afraid.
[05:25] <iwj> sfllaw: I have no idea.  Mozilla expect it to ship by then but I wouldn't trust them.
[05:25] <rodarvus> pitti, thanks
[05:26] <iwj> mdz tells me the request for the 2.0 beta comes from Mark and realistically we don't have a plan B once we put the 2.0 in edgy.
[05:26] <sfllaw> Ugh.
[05:26] <ogra> fschoep, it was a usplash ripoff in deapper ... might be we'll do the same in edgy
[05:26] <sfllaw> QA hat on: I don't like the sound of that.
[05:26] <heno> perhaps I should just mail -devel with the current status and questions
[05:26] <ogra> fun :)
[05:26] <ogra> its edgy, isnt it :)
[05:26] <sfllaw> Anyway, no more questions.
[05:26] <iwj> sfllaw: If you want the decision changed you have about a day.
[05:26] <sfllaw> iwj: Nope.  I'll deal with it when it hits the fan.
[05:26] <iwj> If nothing horrid happens I'll probably upload, committing us, tomorrow.
[05:26] <fschoep> ogra: I see, it's just never gotten onto the work list for the artwork team
[05:26] <iwj> OK.
[05:27] <sfllaw> You can still browse the web, right?
[05:27] <iwj> At the moment just barely :-).
[05:27] <rodarvus> in a desperate situation firefox could be reversed to 1.5, couldn't it?
[05:27] <rodarvus> (at least I can't see why not)
[05:27] <pitti> iwj: 1.5+2.0beta+reverted-to-1.5-1, we had this exercise already :)
[05:27] <iwj> rodarvus: In theory but it would be a real PITA.
[05:27] <ogra> heh
[05:27] <iwj> pitti: Quite :-/.
[05:27] <sfllaw> Riddell?
[05:27] <Riddell> hi, I have an update from kwwii
[05:27] <Riddell> 1) worked on window deco graphics (buttons and colors)
[05:27] <Riddell> 2) worked more on the wallpaper ideas used in knot2 (matching the colors
[05:27] <Riddell> used in the window deco, etc.), and creating variants of those.
[05:27] <Riddell> 3) hacking HTML/CSS and making images for the KDE app start pages still,
[05:27] <Riddell> trying to find some community help on this
[05:27] <Riddell> 4) finishing up BZR-NG GUI icons (summer of code project)
[05:28] <Riddell> we have a nice new purple feel to kubuntu now thanks to kwwii
[05:28] <Riddell> and from me:
[05:28] <Riddell> done:
[05:28] <Riddell>     kubuntu-laptop-buttons: working fully for me, further testing needed (thanks to Lure)
[05:28] <Riddell>     kubuntu-power-management: new HAL frontend written, working fully for me, further testing needed (thanks to sebas)
[05:28] <Riddell>     kubuntu-system-settings-usability: new layout implemented, some tweaks needed (thanks to Sime)
[05:28] <seb128> iwj: does 2.0 will break apps using gecko?
[05:28] <Riddell>     also dapper point release testing
[05:28] <Riddell>     soc: working with abattoir on kubuntu oem-installer
[05:28] <Riddell> blocked:
[05:28] <Riddell>     ruby1.8
[05:28] <Riddell>     backports
[05:28] <Riddell> todo:
[05:28] <Riddell>     kubuntu-accessibility (get kdeaccessibilty into main)
[05:28] <iwj> seb128: very probably.
[05:28] <Riddell>     kubuntu-hwdb
[05:28] <iwj> I haven't got that far.
[05:29] <iwj> yet
[05:29] <seb128> iwj: do you have public packages I could play with before you break GNOME by uploading? :)
[05:29] <ogra> time for xulrunner :)
[05:29] <iwj> seb128: Not yet but I can give you a sneak preview if you want.
[05:29] <sfllaw> Riddell: Can anyone help with your blocked items?
[05:29] <iwj> ATM they're too broken to give to you, really, but some time tomorrow and I could delay the actual upload until Monday ?
[05:29] <Riddell> sfllaw: dunno, I don't think we have any ruby experts with a powerpc
[05:29] <mvo> iwj: I would be interessted as well
[05:30] <iwj> mvo: OK, I'll post to ubuntu-devel :-).
[05:30] <Riddell> sfllaw: and Kamion said he had a plan for backports, but presumably it's ultimately a soyuz team issue
[05:30] <seb128> iwj: no hurry but you start having packages ready to use that would be nice, so I can prepare GNOME updates that need to be uploaded when the new firefox is uploaded
[05:30] <iwj> seb128: Right, quite so.
[05:30] <mvo> thanks iwj
[05:30] <seb128> thank you
[05:30] <seb128> s/you start/when you start/
[05:30] <sfllaw> Riddell: OK.  Give us a shout if the situation changes for that.
[05:31] <sfllaw> Any more questions?
[05:31] <iwj> seb128: I don't plan to have two uploads unless I can help it, so I'm going to try to fix all of the showstoppers now and leave anything else to fester until shortly before release.
[05:31] <seb128> ok
[05:31] <sfllaw> Right.
[05:31] <sfllaw> pitti?
[05:32] <pitti> Done:
[05:32] <pitti>  * auto-unmount-notifications: First implementation uploaded, announced, waiting for test results
[05:32] <pitti>  * automated-problem-reports:
[05:32] <pitti>    - discussed update-notifier fixes with mvo, everything should be fixed in the very latest uplaod
[05:32] <pitti>    - discussed KDE frontend with Riddell (not for edgy, KDE's crash handler is deemed good enough)
[05:32] <pitti>    - discussed required kernel changes with BenC, next kernel will bring full backtrace and core dump love
[05:32] <pitti>    - polished UI, core dump shrinking, fixed some bugs, adapted to new (future) kernel behaviour
[05:32] <pitti>    - started writing a tool to produce symbolic stacktraces from a crash report and ddebs
[05:32] <pitti>  * pkg-create-dbgsym: discussion with infinity about cowboying .ddebs to a public inofficial place; we agreed to the process and structure, needs implementation on buildds and on rookery now
[05:32] <pitti>  * dapper point release CD testing
[05:32] <pitti>  * security update: libwmf (quiet week, *happy*)
[05:32] <pitti>  * thoughts about new sponsoring process, wrote tool, created teams, announced to u-devel for testing; seems to work pretty well
[05:32] <pitti>  * misc: various bug fixes (pmount, hal, langpacks), locales updates
[05:32] <pitti> Todo:
[05:32] <pitti>  * automated-problem-reports: new kernel should be uploaded RSN; test with new kernel, make final adoptions to apport, coordinate required bug-buddy/gnome changes with seb128, stick into ubuntu-desktop, announce for testing
[05:32] <pitti>  * security updates
[05:33] <pitti>  * catch up with bug triage
[05:33] <pitti> [end]  sorry, long vehicle
[05:34] <sfllaw> pitti: Do you need help with CD testing?
[05:34] <sfllaw> I think some people in #ubuntu-bugs might be interested.
[05:34] <pitti> sfllaw: too late, dapper point release is out :)
[05:34] <sfllaw> As well as the Laptop Testing team.
[05:34] <sfllaw> Well then.
[05:34] <sfllaw> Never mind.
[05:35] <sfllaw> Any other questions?
[05:35] <sfllaw> doko?
[05:36] <doko> - this week
[05:36] <doko>   - openoffice.org 2.0.3: decided against 2.0.3 for dapper-updates, two regressions in -calc with auto filters. started 2.0.4 builds for edgy.
[05:36] <doko>   - edgy-toolchain: benchmarking the biarch compiler and a biarch-disabled compiler (checking for compile time regressions after a discussion with Maxim), sparc and powerpc still needed.
[05:36] <doko>   - FC backport of classpath-0.92 to gcj-4.1; uploaded; shiny new things, including new gcjwebplugin
[05:36] <doko>   - python2.5: update to beta3 (final release delayed to Sept 12).
[05:36] <doko>   - fastjar security updates (partly done)
[05:36] <doko> - next week
[05:36] <doko>   - looking at gcc build failures on powerpc
[05:36] <doko>   - openoffice.org: upload of 2.0.4 milestone
[05:36] <doko>   - catch up / update status on all specs before the sprint
[05:37] <pitti> doko: oh, nice to know that you are doing fastjar
[05:37] <pitti> doko: the directory traversal?
[05:37] <doko> yes
[05:38] <sfllaw> Questions?
[05:38] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[05:38] <sfllaw> mvo?
[05:38] <mvo> Did:
[05:38] <mvo> * 3rd party software work (pandasoft)
[05:38] <mvo> * apt:
[05:38] <mvo>   - ddtp support added to python-apt, synaptic, pending inclusion into lp-production 
[05:38] <mvo>   - ddtp synces with debian and improved the tools
[05:38] <mvo>   - added --{no-}install-recommends and implemented
[05:38] <mvo>     install-new-recommends-on-upgrade logic, uploaded, install-recommends by default not yet enabled by default (announcement pending)
[05:38] <mvo>   - implmented/tested a 90% complete sha256 (apt-get source and .dsc file support missing) branch (md5 replaced as standard hash)
[05:38] <mvo> * command-not-found-magic initial version uploaded (in NEW)
[05:38] <mvo> * update-notifier improvments to notify about crash-reports
[05:38] <mvo> * misc (python-vte, system-tools-backends, gdebi, gksu,libgksu, language-selector, update-manager)
[05:38] <mvo> Blocked:
[05:38] <mvo> * review of the "AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse" spec
[05:38] <mvo> Will do:
[05:39] <mvo> * merge ddtp into apt, python-apt, synaptic (if it enters launchpad this week)
[05:39] <mvo> * announce that "recommends" will be installed shortly by default
[05:39] <mvo> * start with the cdrom-based dist-upgrade support
[05:39] <mvo> * look into what aptitudes needs to natively work with the new apt auto-remove
[05:39] <sfllaw> The recommends behaviour for apt-get?
[05:39] <Keybuk> mvo: aptitude is VERY slow for me since the upgrade ... is that known bug?
[05:39] <Keybuk> it can sit for up to an hour in "blah blah package states"
[05:39] <Keybuk> (upgrade to edgy)
[05:39] <mvo> Keybuk: it was reported, but I have not yet investigated it
[05:39] <Riddell> mvo: what is software-properties?
[05:39] <rodarvus> mvo, I wonder if apt-get can somehow force update of dpkg  before an upgrade from dapper to edgy
[05:40] <mvo> Keybuk: bug 51893
[05:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 51893 in aptitude "aptitude pegs cpu for extended period of time on startup" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51893
[05:40] <Riddell> looking at AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse
[05:40] <mvo> Riddell: the sources.list editor in gtk
[05:40] <rodarvus> (necessary for new Breaks: field)
[05:40] <seb128> mvo: would have be nice to announce "install Recommends by default" some time before implementing it to let time to fix packages abusing from Recommends atm ...
[05:40] <mvo> rodarvus: no, but the dist-upgrade tool can do this - and we need to put it into the release notes
[05:40] <Riddell> mvo: right
[05:40] <rodarvus> mvo, right
[05:40] <mvo> seb128: it is implemented :) its just not enabled yet
[05:40] <rodarvus> this is quite important, then
[05:41] <mvo> rodarvus: yes
[05:41] <mvo> indeed
[05:41] <seb128> mvo: yeah, what I said, would have been nice to announce it before implementing :p
[05:41] <seb128> mvo: we need a "clean Recommends usage" spec ;)
[05:41] <rodarvus> users might end up with a broken X if they upgrade from dapper to edgy and don't have the 'xorg' metapackage (and newer dpkg is not installed yet)
[05:41] <mvo> seb128: yeah!
[05:42] <mvo> rodarvus: ok
[05:42] <Riddell> mvo: install recommends is an apt thing?  (rather than a synaptic thing?)
[05:42] <iwj> rodarvus: Breaks> There's a bug against the dist upgrade tool about that.
[05:42] <mvo> Riddell: sure, almost all work I do currently is apt :)
[05:43] <rodarvus> iwj, nice
[05:43] <mvo> Riddell: it will automatically picked up by the frontends
[05:43] <Riddell> mvo: cool, that'll be fun
[05:43] <mvo> Riddell: its a config option - but it is going to be fun :)
[05:43] <sfllaw> It'll just be like the good old days and dselect!
[05:44] <sfllaw> Anyway.
[05:44] <seb128> some people still use dselect :p
[05:44] <sfllaw> Let's move on, shall we?
[05:44] <sfllaw> ogra?
[05:45] <ogra> * this-week:
[05:45] <ogra>  - point release testing etc.
[05:45] <ogra>  - thinclient-local-devices, running smoothly over here, waits for ltspfs{,d} main inclusion (took most of this week)
[05:45] <ogra>  - student-control-panel-completion some bugfixes
[05:45] <ogra>  - re-assigned all ltsp specs from rodrigo back to me, he'll work fulltime on olpc soon
[05:45] <ogra> * next-week:
[05:45] <ogra>  - finish thinclient-local-devices
[05:45] <ogra>  - more serious work on student-control-panel-completion
[05:45] <ogra>  - checking which bits from my (unused) dapper code fit for ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration
[05:45] <ogra> * specs: 
[05:45] <ogra>  - ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration (started/suspended, resume planned before knot-3 to have it in there for testing)
[05:45] <ogra>  - student-control-panel-completion: (waiting for approval, started)
[05:45] <ogra>  - ltsp-daily-image-tarballs: (in progress, scripts and tarballs available at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-tarballs/)
[05:45] <ogra>  - ltsp-convergence: (no progress, hack-meeting planned for sept. 14th-19th, in michigan)
[05:45] <ogra>  - ltsp-netboot-enhancement: (no progress, reviewed some debian patches for that)
[05:45] <ogra>  - thinclient-local-devices (good progress (nearly done in fact, waiting for bits to move to main) scripts in review by sbalneav)
[05:46] <ogra>  - fully-automatic-swap-server (no idea about progress, reassigned, need to talk to rodrigo)
[05:46] <ogra>  - ltsp-login-and-session-handling (no progress yet, reassigned to me)
[05:46] <ogra>  - edubuntu-xfce-desktop (no progress yet, reassigned)
[05:47] <sfllaw> Questions?
[05:47] <Riddell> how's the new office?
[05:48] <ogra> nice !
[05:48] <sfllaw> Yay!
[05:48] <ogra> i have a big window and loooots of space :)
[05:48] <ogra> 20sqm 
[05:48] <sfllaw> rodarvus?
[05:48] <rodarvus> Done:
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * X.Org triaging, bug fixing
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * Much Edubuntu administrativia (worth a few days of work)
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * miscelaneous X.Org package upgrades
[05:48] <rodarvus> Todo:
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * libdrm,mesa update for new i810 driver (pending approval by mdz)
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * more X.org bug triaging, bug fixing
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * More Edubuntu Administrativia
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * Start OLPC Edubuntu effort (first Thailand Beta due Jan 1th 2007)
[05:48] <rodarvus> Issues:
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * Due to OLPC, I won't be able to dedicate so much time to X.Org - help is *really* appreciated
[05:48] <rodarvus>   * After talk with ogra and RichEd, we agreed ogra will take over my LTSP specs, so I can concentrate on OLPC (thanks ogra!)
[05:49] <ogra> welcome :)
[05:49] <rodarvus> :)
[05:49] <sfllaw> rodarvus: But, but, we didn't have time to work on X.org before you came onboard!
[05:49] <sfllaw> ;)
[05:49] <rodarvus> sfllaw, yeah, this is my biggest fear :)
[05:49] <ogra> dont worry, we'll take your OLPC work and you have time ;)
[05:50] <pitti> rodarvus: you have a big X chained to your legs now ;)
[05:50] <rodarvus> we are looking for an upstream X.Org developer to maintain X for Ubuntu, btw
[05:50] <Riddell> rodarvus: what's the administrativia? (wondering how it compares to kubuntu administrativia)
[05:50] <Keybuk> rodarvus: what's KP doing these days? <g>
[05:50] <ogra> hehe
[05:50] <rodarvus> Riddell, not really comparable, I fear
[05:50] <ogra> Keybuk, want to switch us to 100% kdrive ?
[05:50] <rodarvus> mostly Canonical internal stuff
[05:51] <Keybuk> ogra: if it supports my Nvidia cards and SLI, sure <g>
[05:51] <ogra> hehe
[05:51] <Keybuk> it'll save infinity some repeated pain
[05:51] <ogra> kdrivexgl :)
[05:51] <rodarvus> Riddell, I can explain to you in privmsg if you want :) (not really the most appropriate place here)
[05:51] <Riddell> rodarvus: sure
[05:51] <sfllaw> Keybuk: Keith made a press release a few days ago.
[05:51] <sfllaw> A press release!
[05:52] <ogra> with text ? 
[05:52] <sfllaw> Hmm.
[05:52] <sfllaw> I think he's done.
[05:52] <sfllaw> :)
[05:52] <sfllaw> Keybuk?
[05:52] <Keybuk> Done:
[05:52] <Keybuk> - holiday, left me feeling very relaxed
[05:52] <Keybuk> - ReplacementInit: made some big advancements, this should be ready before distro sprint so slightly ahead of schedule!
[05:52] <Keybuk> To Do:
[05:52] <Keybuk> - more of the same, hopefully get a package put together for other people to test
[05:52] <Keybuk> - may write BootMessageLogging in my CST (it's needed for upstart anyway)
[05:52] <Riddell> rodarvus needs to learn about screen
[05:52] <ogra> Riddell, xchat doesnt run in screen :)
[05:53] <pitti> Keybuk: CST?
[05:53] <ogra> (note the X in xchat)
[05:53] <pitti> another TLA *sigh*
[05:53] <Keybuk> pitti: Copious Spare Time
[05:53] <pitti> lol
[05:53] <Keybuk> ogra: oddly enough, that's why I wrote dircproxy
[05:53] <sfllaw> Keybuk: You'll have to give us a ReplacementInit demo during the sprint.
[05:53] <rodarvus_> ahn, the joys of packaging X - it just exploded my computer :)
[05:53] <sfllaw> It sounds like something edgy.
[05:53] <Keybuk> sfllaw: my current goal is that I'll casually mention that you've all been running it for a week by then <g>
[05:54] <ogra> Keybuk, make it a company policy that we all use it then ;)
[05:54] <Keybuk> oh, random Q
[05:54] <pitti> policy? for my part, I'm looking forward to try it without any force :)
[05:54] <Keybuk> unsurprisingly, I haven't implemented it as specified
[05:54] <ogra> i was talking about dircproxy :P
[05:54] <sfllaw> Any other questions?
[05:54] <pitti> ah
[05:54] <Keybuk> should I update the spec?  or just accept it as a failure of intelligent design
[05:55] <pitti> Keybuk: I usually retroactively change specs for the matter of having an uptodate documentation
[05:55] <pitti> for small bits at least
[05:55] <ogra> Keybuk, the latter ... that gives us others more freedom to say .. but Keybuk did that as well ;)
[05:55] <Riddell> Keybuk: I don't tend to touch specs after approvial, I add notes at the end
[05:55] <sfllaw> Keybuk: Or at least note where you deviated in a comment below.
[05:55] <sfllaw> Don't feel too bad.  Upfront design almost never works.
[05:55] <Keybuk> heh, you're telling me!
[05:56] <Keybuk> I've decided I really can't do it
[05:56] <Keybuk> this time, I had it all planned in little multi-hour chunks
[05:56] <Keybuk> and I just sat there not knowing what to do
[05:56] <Keybuk> so I threw it all in the bin, and just started coding without any plan
[05:56] <Keybuk> much easier <g>
[05:56] <sfllaw> There are ways to do this sanely, but this is probably not the place to discuss it.
[05:56] <sfllaw> So, let's move on to seb128.
[05:56] <sfllaw> seb128?
[05:57] <seb128> This week:
[05:57] <seb128> - GNOME 2.15.91 for edgy
[05:57] <seb128> - backported some desktop fixes to dapper-updates
[05:57] <seb128> - war against desktop bugs: load and load of bugs triaged, but there is simply too many of them for the number of people working on it, we barely keep up with new and high priority bugs at the moment (not speaking of catching with the lag)
[05:57] <seb128> . 
[05:57] <seb128> Next week:
[05:57] <seb128> - really catch up with mails and SoC lag
[05:57] <seb128> - keep triaging bugs, load and load of them still to work on
[05:57] <seb128> - backporting some other desktop fixes to dapper
[05:57] <sfllaw> Thanks for the bug triaging work.
[05:57] <seb128> np ;)
[05:57] <ogra> Keybuk, and usually *much* better results ... ;)
[05:57] <seb128> have you planned to give an hand on desktop bugs btw?
[05:57] <sfllaw> Yes.
[05:57] <seb128> we could use some extra hands for it :)
[05:57] <sfllaw> I'm going to spend some of my weekend on it too.
[05:58] <seb128> I don't ask for that much
[05:58] <sfllaw> That's OK.
[05:58] <seb128> some week time would be a good start ;)
[05:58] <sfllaw> Hey!
[05:58] <sfllaw> Any other questions?
[05:58] <sfllaw> All right.
[05:58] <sfllaw> sfllaw?
[05:59] <sfllaw> Oh wait, that's me.
[05:59] <sfllaw> Done
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * UbuntuMotuSchool session
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * Bug triage
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * Testing various specs
[05:59] <sfllaw> To do
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * Aggressive bug triage
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * Organizing next week's UbuntuBugDay
[05:59] <sfllaw>  * Poke SoC student some more
[05:59] <rodarvus> sfllaw, I'd like to know if you could give us a hand triaging some X.Org bugs?
[05:59] <sfllaw> Any particular packages?
[05:59] <seb128> rodarvus: desktop asked first :p
[05:59] <sfllaw> A URL of a Malone query would be excellent.
[05:59] <rodarvus> starting with the unconfirmed bugs for 'xorg' would be a great start
[05:59] <rodarvus> seb128, oh :/
[05:59] <rodarvus> haha
[06:00] <sfllaw> I'll just switch over when I get bored.
[06:00] <sfllaw> Or my eyes glaze over.
[06:00] <sfllaw> Doing on bug triaging makes me attention span last about 60 seconds.
[06:00] <rodarvus> 'xorg' is a meta-package, ideally it should have 0 bugs :)
[06:00] <rodarvus> so, overal a great place to start
[06:00] <seb128> GNOME is perfect, so it should have 0 bugs too :p
[06:00] <rodarvus> :)
[06:00] <pitti> *cough*
[06:01] <ogra> just delete them :)
[06:01] <pitti> seb128: apart from that icky terminal resizing bug :)
[06:01] <rodarvus> yeah, all wanna-be X bugs are actually kernel, gnome or kde bugs!
[06:01] <seb128> pitti: ah right, I'm not bothered about it because I don't use tabs ;)
[06:01] <imbrandon> rodarvus: no kde ones !!??!!
[06:01] <rodarvus> or something wrong on the users side
[06:01] <imbrandon> ;)
[06:01] <ogra> as long as they dont turn into ltsp bugs :)
[06:01] <sfllaw> Any general issues people want to bring up?
[06:01] <sfllaw> Is everyone booked for the summit?
[06:01] <Riddell> I presume we won't have a Knot 2 without Kamion and Mithrandir?
[06:02] <ogra> unlikely
[06:02] <infinity> sfllaw: Are you ready to declare this one done, Mr. Chair?
[06:02] <rodarvus> I see there are a few of us which aren't booked yet (or haven't updated the wiki page)
[06:02] <infinity> Riddell: I wasn't planning on one.
[06:02] <ogra> Riddell, we *could* do it on our own though ... infinity is here 
[06:02] <ogra> thats all we need ;)
[06:02] <sfllaw> If you haven't updated the wiki, please do so.
[06:02] <rodarvus> fuJNesp3
[06:02] <fschoep> rodarvus: are you talking about the "confirmed" column?
[06:02] <sfllaw> That will make cvd happy.
[06:02] <ogra> rodarvus, thanks :)
[06:02] <rodarvus> oh
[06:02] <infinity> Riddell: It could be done, but there are enough weird breakages right now, it's probably best to roll one at the end of the sprint.
[06:02] <rodarvus> that was unexpected
[06:03] <sfllaw> Right.  I think this meeting's done.
[06:03] <infinity> rodarvus: And which machine is that password for?
[06:03] <ogra> rodarvus, file a GNOME bug ;) it shouldnt steal focus
[06:03] <Riddell> thanks sfllaw 
[06:03] <rodarvus> fschoep, yes, and some of us also haven't filled general information
[06:03] <infinity> rodarvus: And have you already changed it? :)
[06:03] <rodarvus> infinity, my laptop :)
[06:03] <sfllaw> Thanks all.
[06:03] <pitti> general issue: how does everyone feel about their SoC students?
[06:03] <sfllaw> 60 minutes.
[06:03] <fschoep> Should I update "confirmed" myself, then?
[06:03] <sfllaw> We did good.
[06:03] <sfllaw> :)
[06:03] <pitti> my SoC student is performing terribly :(
[06:03] <ogra> pitti, totally good 
[06:03] <rodarvus> fschoep, yup
[06:03] <fschoep> OK, will do.
[06:03] <sfllaw> pitti: So's mine.
[06:04] <seb128> pitti: my student it barely doing anything :/
[06:04] <ogra> pitti, sudo apt-get install willowng willowng-config :)
[06:04] <Riddell> pitti: mostly below expectations
[06:04] <sfllaw> This is pretty typical of students, though.
[06:04] <sfllaw> :/
[06:04] <pitti> it doesn't seem to work very well in the majority of cases
[06:04] <seb128> nop
[06:04] <pitti> it was even better last year
[06:04] <seb128> I've to admit I've not a lot of time to push him though
[06:04] <rodarvus> ogra, actually, I have two keyboards in front of me now
[06:04] <rodarvus> just typed in the wrong one
[06:04] <pitti> seb128: $6000 should be push enough, I had thought...
[06:04] <rodarvus> (while also looking at the wrong screen)
[06:04] <seb128> pitti: yeah me too
[06:05] <pitti> and I regularly stab mine, too
[06:05] <ogra> rodarvus, aww, i know how that feels (i have 5 here for the thin clients)
[06:05] <Keybuk> seb128: mine has vanished off the face of the earth entirely
[06:05] <rodarvus> :)
[06:05] <sfllaw> pitti: Money is actually a poor motivator.
[06:05] <ogra> did you guys tell our SoC leader ? 
[06:05] <sfllaw> It's extrinsic, instead of intrinsic.
[06:05] <ogra> (doko)
[06:05] <fschoep> sfllaw: interesting, is there more info on that subject?
[06:06] <pitti> sfllaw: right
[06:06] <Keybuk> ogra: no, because I suck more than my student
[06:06] <ogra> haha
[06:06] <sfllaw> fschoep: I'll dig up some links on psychology and organizational behaviour for you.
[06:06] <fschoep> Great, I'd enjoy reading that.
[06:07] <fschoep> Thanks for being ehre everyone
[06:07] <rodarvus> thanks all
[06:07] <rodarvus> I'll brb
[06:07] <pitti> thanks everyone
[06:08] <sfllaw> Keybuk: Then I wouldn't be able to eat.
[06:08] <sfllaw> And would be sad.
[06:08] <seb128> sfllaw: I'm sure they can send you some food instead of money :p
[06:09] <sfllaw> seb128: If all my needs were met without money, I would totally work for those instead.
[06:09] <sfllaw> Food, books, a bit of travel, tons of free time.
[06:09] <sfllaw> I'd probably be happier too.
[06:09] <seb128> right ;)
[06:09] <sfllaw> Money's just convenient.
[06:09] <sfllaw> Currency was a pretty useful invention.
[06:10] <sfllaw> That way, Jane doesn't have to figure out what I want.
[06:10] <seb128> yeah
[06:48] <mdz> argh
[06:48] <mdz> sfllaw: thanks for moderating
[06:49] <sfllaw> mdz: No worries.
[06:49] <mdz> I had the meeting marked for evening UTC
[06:49] <mdz> if that ever happens again, please call me
[06:49] <sfllaw> Roger that.
[06:50] <sfllaw> mdz: Well, you now know that if you get hit by a bus, life will go on.
[06:50] <sfllaw> :)
[08:44] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[08:44] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 11:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
[08:46] <gnomefreak> i think thats wrong
[08:47] <gnomefreak> kubuntu meeting is at 2100
[08:47] <gnomefreak> oh nvm chicago :(
[08:48] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[08:48] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 18:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
[09:17] <nixternal> lol @ gnomefreak ;)
[09:17] <gnomefreak> ;)
[09:34] <Meyer> @schedule Brazil/East
[09:34] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Brazil/East: 10 Aug 18:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 13:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 17:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 17:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 09:00: Edubuntu
[09:46] <imbrandon> @schedule us/central
[09:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 11:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
[09:53] <toma> pompompom
[10:01] <toma> pompompo
[10:10] <fdoving> @schedule europe/oslo
[10:10] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Oslo: 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 18:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
[10:10] <toma> pompomp
[10:17] <ryanakca> @schedule ottawa
[10:17] <ryanakca> @schedule Toronto
[10:17] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 10 Aug 17:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 12:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 16:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 08:00: Edubuntu
[10:18] <toma> pompom
[10:18] <ryanakca> hmmm.... 5pm... that's why it's so silent :)
[10:25] <toma> pompo
[10:33] <toma> pomp
[10:40] <toma> pom
[10:40] <imbrandon> ?
[10:47] <toma> po
[10:54] <toma> p
[10:59] <toma> hey allee
[11:00] <Sime> hey
[11:00] <allee> toma: heh, just in time:)
[11:00] <allee> hi Sime 
[11:00] <toma> allee: busy with work or @ home?
[11:00] <imbrandon> moins all
[11:00] <Sime> allee: hi
[11:00] <allee> toma: just arrived. And Jule made trouble.  Now she's in bed.  Puh 
[11:01] <toma> allee: nice job ;-)
[11:02] <allee> eh, spend that is
[11:02] <toma> sebas/sime: should we move the media item to the top of the agenda for you?
[11:02] <allee> toma: ask me when you need assistance in the future ;)
[11:02] <Lure> agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
[11:02] <Sime> toma: please
[11:02] <nixternal> good mornin' Hobbsee!
[11:02] <Hobbsee> hi all
[11:02] <Lure> hi Hobbsee
[11:02] <sebas> I've no problem with moving items.
[11:02] <gnomefreak> hi
[11:02] <allee> ho Hobbsee 
[11:02] <imbrandon> wakie wakie corn flakie
[11:02] <Riddell> hi all
[11:03] <Hobbsee> hehe
[11:03] <seaLne> few minutes late for that
[11:03] <imbrandon> ok everyone here ?
[11:03] <sebas> Hobbsee: Depends on where you are, and what (tv / radio) channel you're on.
[11:03] <Hobbsee> can i go back to bed?
[11:04] <Hobbsee> sebas: tru
[11:04] <Hobbsee> e
[11:04] <sebas> Yeah, beds are good.
[11:04] <Riddell> so, anyone here for membership?
[11:04] <gnomefreak> ;)
[11:05] <imbrandon> Riddell: dont see anyone on the agenda , LP list ?
[11:05] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: ifyou're  a ubuntu member, you dont need to get voted on being a kubuntu member too
[11:05] <gnomefreak> oh i dont?
[11:05] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: nope
[11:05] <Riddell> doesn't need to, but can if he wants to be aligned to kubuntu too
[11:05] <imbrandon> gnomefreak: no they are one in the same 
[11:05] <gnomefreak> :)
[11:05] <Riddell> AlejandroLeon here?
[11:06] <Riddell> ryanakca: ping
[11:06] <imbrandon> yea wasent ryanakca gonna into himself ;P
[11:06] <imbrandon> intro*
[11:07] <seaLne> hmm :)
[11:07] <Riddell> guess he's away
[11:07] <Riddell> so, onto agenda
[11:07] <Riddell> toma: your item
[11:07] <toma> Riddell: if ok,  iwant to start with item 3 first
[11:07] <toma> Sime's blog gives an interesting new perspective to KDE's file dialog. Frustrated by the media:/ I once wrote a medialib, which was meant to tackle some of the problems. But it never got in workable state. 
[11:07] <toma> The basic idea of Simon is to hide all not-for-user-eyes-meant folders like (/dev, /etc, /initrd, /bin, etc). File dialogs only show /home and /media by default. 
[11:07] <toma> Under /media are all devices normally visible under media:/
[11:07] <toma> I fully support the idea, and I would like to know what you think about it.
[11:08] <Riddell> I think it sounds very interesting
[11:08] <imbrandon> yea i'm +1 too for what its worth
[11:08] <Lure> toma: I like Sime's work a lot and looks promising
[11:08] <allee> Sime: did you get any response from other kde core members about your idea
[11:09] <seaLne> toma: is it easy to get to / ?
[11:09] <ryanakca> Riddell: pong
[11:09] <Riddell> it might be a disaster with some unforseen circunstances, but we need to try it to find out
[11:09] <Lure> and if we need something Edgy, this could be it ;-)
[11:09] <Sime> I've been emailed by ervin.
[11:09] <seaLne> yeah no files would be edgy
[11:09] <Hobbsee> Lure: i think that for edgy we should just make kde not start.
[11:09] <Hobbsee> Lure: that would be edgy enough :P
[11:09] <gnomefreak> lol
[11:09] <toma> Sime: what did he say?
[11:09] <Sime> allee: he is interested in working together, but...
[11:09] <Riddell> Sime: how close are your patches to being ready to upload?
[11:10] <Sime> I'm not sure if ervin has much time for KDE 3 though. ( he is busy with KDE 4) 
[11:10] <seaLne> what about just adding media:/ to the icons on the left that you can add locations to but by default?
[11:10] <Riddell> I wouldn't want to distract ervin from kde 4 :)
[11:11] <Sime> Riddell: the notification dialog still opens stuff in media:/, and there are some issue with refreshing the file list, and...
[11:11] <Sime> Riddell: udev needs to provide better mount point names.
[11:11] <sebas> That's HAL :)
[11:11] <Lure> Sime: this is dapper bug and should be fixed
[11:11] <Sime> I only got that email from ervin tonight.
[11:11] <Riddell> Sime: mount point names in KDE 3.4 are handled by HAL, and I believe they're intentially human readable
[11:11] <Lure> Sime: it works in GNOME (somehow)... 
[11:12] <mjg59> udev doesn't generate mountpoint names, surely?
[11:12] <toma> Sime: do you have the time to fix those / are you willing to fix those issues?
[11:12] <Riddell> Sime: presumably we'd need to patch the system menu on kicker as well as the popup
[11:12] <sebas> I can imagine that it's not going into KDE3, it has to be widely tested first, and be without problems (proven!)
[11:12] <sebas> So the way it *might* go into KDE3 would be first via Edgy so bugs are shaken out
[11:12] <Sime> sebas: no, it won't come into kde 3. no time.
[11:12] <Sime> sebas: perhaps for edgy.
[11:12] <ompaul> I was under an assumption that there was a proposal floating in the gnome household that was saying hide all that material also .. might be worth investigating
[11:12] <sebas> Yeah, probably not.
[11:13] <toma> ompaul: i thought nautilus did that laready
[11:13] <allee> Sime: media dialog has also the problem what it pop up in every session (:0, :1 etc) and does not close if device is unpluged
[11:13] <sebas> I suggest having someone with inside knowledge of kdelibs review it, and have someone from OpenUsability review it.
[11:13] <Sime> toma: I'm willing to put some time into it (some how).
[11:13] <Riddell> allee: we need to get JRe to fix that :)
[11:14] <Sime> The patches need to be tested first by us.
[11:14] <ompaul> toma, my understanding is there is something else for more hiding
[11:14] <Sime> this stuff is really alpha/beta quality now.
[11:14] <allee> Riddell: JRe or ervin told me that it's not easy :(
[11:14] <Sime> until they get tested first.
[11:14] <imbrandon> Sime i dont mind guine pigging catch me in #kubuntu-devel anytime
[11:14] <Riddell> imbrandon: patches are on his blog, go ahead and try them
[11:14] <imbrandon> k
[11:14] <toma> ok, so in current state it is not ready for edgy
[11:15] <Sime> what I'm saying is that I don't know what else is borken and needs to be fixed.
[11:15] <Sime> that is our first task.
[11:15] <Riddell> it sounds like they are ready for edgy given edgy's current state
[11:15] <Riddell> although some testing first would be a good idea
[11:15] <toma> hmm
[11:15] <Lure> Riddell: I would agree - we can drop them anytime
[11:15] <imbrandon> exactly better to get them in soonish and work out bugs now
[11:15] <imbrandon> then knot 7 or soem such
[11:16] <toma> good, we can pull them out at any time of course
[11:16] <allee> Will media:, system: go away in KDE4? 
[11:16] <Riddell> allee: undecided
[11:16] <Riddell> imbrandon: fancy making us some .debs with those patches so we can test?
[11:16] <Sime> ervin is still working that stuff from what I understand.
[11:16] <imbrandon> Riddell: sure thing
[11:16] <bipolar> allee: I hope so....
[11:16] <toma> imbrandon: great
[11:16] <allee> if not we have the problem that we now start some sort of fork that needs maintaining ...
[11:16] <allee> bipolar: me too
[11:17] <Sime> a wiki page for this would be useful too. ;-)
[11:17] <Riddell> allee: it shouldn't be hard to maintain them in KDE 3, and KDE 4 will be sufficiently different that they'll need re-written anyway
[11:17] <Lure> Sime: can we make this behaviour optional and not dependant on other features (View Hidden files)?
[11:17] <imbrandon> Sime: yea when i "debianize" it i'll wiki it
[11:17] <toma> allee: let's first see how the results are while we test it
[11:17] <Hobbsee> +1 Lure 
[11:18] <Lure> then we could easily turn it of for people complaining
[11:18] <gnomefreak> i thought i read somewhere today that kde4 wouldnt be that different
[11:18] <toma> allee: if we need to patch every corner of kde, i might agree
[11:18] <Sime> Lure: not easily.
[11:18] <Sime> imbrandon: cool
[11:19] <Hobbsee> personally, i think we need to take Lure's suggestion for all the konqi defaults we change.  there are people who like standard kde, but want the otherwise ease of use of kubuntu
[11:19] <Sime> if these changes work out well in edgy, then there is a good chance that they will appear in some form in KDE4.
[11:19] <Riddell> Hobbsee: all the konqui changes are easily revertable
[11:19] <Hobbsee> Riddell: true, if you play with config files.  i was thinking more a menu option
[11:19] <Sime> kubuntu has a good track record for changes in kde.
[11:20] <imbrandon> Sime: hehehe
[11:20] <allee> I'm somehow not completely happy with the 'hidden file' feature.  somehow this diverts for unix.  But I would be happy to hide files via .hidden if dot-files and hidden files can be set independently
[11:20] <Riddell> allee: kioslaves can now set arbitrary files as "hidden"
[11:20] <Sime> allee: in which directory?
[11:21] <bipolar> What media playing backend is edgy going to use? Is it going to go back to gstreamer?
[11:21] <imbrandon> allee: yea but userfriendly isnt unix, also there could be a "godmode" that ignores it 
[11:21] <Sime> allee: root uses .hidden, /home doesn't though
[11:21] <Lure> allee: +1
[11:21] <bipolar> gstreamer worked well for breezy. using xine or mplayer doesn't seem to be as stable or easy to use.
[11:21] <allee> Sime: ah, I thought .hidden can be placed everywhere is is hounred
[11:22] <Riddell> bipolar: stick to the agenda
[11:22] <imbrandon> please
[11:22] <Sime> allee: that is true.
[11:22] <Lure> Sime: and for /home suggestion in blog comments about showing the one's user has access would be nice
[11:22] <Sime> allee: there is extra code for /home.
[11:22] <bipolar> Riddell: oh, I'm sorry. I thought all things edgy were the agenda.
[11:22] <Sime> Lure: true, it is an interesting idea.
[11:22] <allee> Sime:  I would 'show hidden files and 'show dot' files.  so expert and newbies can feel at home
[11:22] <Hobbsee> bipolar: feel free to add it to the end of the agenda
[11:22] <imbrandon> bipolar: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[11:23] <bipolar> thanks imbrandon 
[11:23] <Sime> allee: that would be a much bigger change though (-> time)
[11:23] <Riddell> allee: that's too complex if you ask me, and I don't see the advant1age
[11:23] <allee> Sime: oh,  so it 'breaks' with /home/<chr>/<user>  or homes NFS or AFS that does start /home/*?
[11:23] <Hobbsee> allee: first reponse:  "what on earth are dot files?"
[11:23] <toma> allee: if a user want to see /initrd, he can cope with some dot files ;-)
[11:24] <allee> Hobbsee: files starting with a '.'
[11:24] <Hobbsee> allee: arent they hidden files?
[11:24] <Sime> allee: probably.
[11:24] <allee> Hobbsee: Sime just redefined the term hidden ;)
[11:24] <Hobbsee> allee: right...
[11:24] <Hobbsee> which now means hiding arbitarily
[11:24] <allee> Hobbsee: hidden is just a feature of shell and ls
[11:25] <allee> Hobbsee: rest of unix does not know about hidden files
[11:25] <Sime> allee: exactly
[11:25] <allee> almost ;)
[11:25] <Riddell> we should move on
[11:25] <sebas> The "breaks "/home/<chr>/<users>" problem can be solved by dynamically deciding what /home is, from /etc userconf.
[11:25] <Lure> allee: it should not break /home/<char>/<name>/ if access() check is used for hiding...
[11:25] <Riddell> plan is for imbrandon to compile us some packages, and if they're sane we'll throw it into edgy and see what breaks
[11:25] <Hobbsee> ok, cool
[11:25] <sebas> That's where guidance decides where to put new homedirs.
[11:25] <Sime> ok, once a wiki page is up, I'll add my list of known problems.
[11:25] <Hobbsee> :P
[11:25] <toma> summary: test imbrandon's package, if generally ok upload to edgy
[11:26] <Riddell> next item: welcome ryanakca 
[11:26] <Hobbsee> yay, a membership!
[11:26] <imbrandon> welcome ryanakca ;)
[11:26] <Riddell> Hobbsee: not membership yet
[11:26] <nixternal> hehe
[11:26] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: not yet
[11:26] <ryanakca> membership?
[11:26] <Hobbsee> Riddell: oh?  okay then.
[11:26] <ryanakca> Hello all...
[11:26] <Riddell> ryanakca: what's your name and what are you interested in?
[11:26] <imbrandon> hey is just joing us and saying "hi" as the wiki said ;)
[11:27] <Hobbsee> toma: sorry for confusion
[11:27] <ryanakca> I'm Ryan Kavanagh, and I'm interested in helping out kubuntu... I'm not really a programmer... but I am learning C...
[11:27] <nixternal> he is one of my bosses as well ;)
[11:27] <imbrandon> toma: the wiki stats to get involved in kubuntu development intro yourself to the developers before anything else, this is the stage he is at
[11:27] <ryanakca> ummm... I've packaged a few things... and that's about it...
[11:27] <toma> imbrandon: thanks
[11:28] <ryanakca> I'm interested in helping out wherever possible :)
[11:28] <nixternal> he is one of the New User Mentors who created the Classroom!!!
[11:28] <ryanakca> yes, that too
[11:28] <Riddell> ryanakca: great to have you
[11:28] <nixternal> he makes me do way to much work thats for sure
[11:28] <gnomefreak> lol
[11:28] <ryanakca> lol
[11:28] <Riddell> back to the agenda, toma..
[11:28] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: really now?  cool.  /me thought that was called lurking in #kubuntu-devel then randomly having Riddell ask you to fix something
[11:28] <toma> item 1 rosetta!
[11:28] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: LOL
[11:28] <toma> Starting from KDE 3.5.4, the Kubuntu version op KDE contains a link to help translating the application in the help menu.
[11:28] <toma> The link points to Rosetta. The KDE-translators have expressed their concerns about this. 
[11:28] <toma> The last week I've taken the time to list all the concerns ans some possible solutions. 
[11:28] <toma> http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDERosettaCollaboration
[11:28] <toma> I think it is important that we - as in kubuntu - pass on the concerns to the rosetta developers.
[11:28] <toma> I would like to know how you think about this situation and would like advice about how to proceed with this document.
[11:29] <toma> too much coffee when i wrote that
[11:29] <imbrandon> toma, Hobbsee: second line on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu FYI
[11:30] <Riddell> I do see and agree with most of the concerns of the KDE translators, but I also see the advantage of a rosetta system
[11:30] <nixternal> hehe
[11:30] <Riddell> I'm also pretty confident that the rosetta developers are working on fixing most of the problems KDE has with rosetta
[11:30] <imbrandon> yea the main thing is making our case to the KDE team about the advantages of rosetta and maybe finding a way it can sync both ways 
[11:31] <toma> Riddell: are they aware of them?
[11:31] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: oh nice.
[11:31] <Riddell> toma: I've spoken to them on IRC throughout the KDE thread (which they've also read)
[11:31] <Riddell> toma: but I think I should ask them to respond directly to the points on the wiki page
[11:31] <allee> Riddell: problem is that no rosetta devel search an dialog with the translators
[11:31] <toma> Riddell: can you do that, that would be a great start.
[11:32] <allee> yes
[11:32] <bipolar> hmmm.... I hope I can make it home and back on before the agenda item I just added comes up. be back in 15min.
[11:32] <Riddell> toma: and as I said on the list we'll have a kubuntu bof with sabdfl at Akademy where we can bring up these points
[11:33] <toma> allright.
[11:33] <Riddell> allee: you mean the rosetta developers should respond directory on the upstream translators lists?
[11:33] <allee> yeap. 
[11:34] <toma> oh, that would be great, make sure they wear bullutproof jackets
[11:34] <allee> but the wiki page is fine too.
[11:34] <Riddell> allee: I can ask them to do that too
[11:34] <imbrandon> lol toma
[11:34] <toma> okay, next item?
[11:34] <allee> when there's resetta thread activity again in kde-i18n then it may help if the rosetta devel answer directly
[11:35] <Riddell> allee: yep
[11:35] <toma> yes
[11:35] <Riddell> toma: please
[11:35] <toma> A lot of KDE packages are packed on Debian within the KDE-extra's team.
[11:35] <toma> Achim and me maintain packages for both distributions. If the Kubuntu version diverts from the debian one that causes a lot of duplicate work, which can be prevented.
[11:35] <toma> Everyone is capable of requesting an account on the server where those packages are maintained. Achim and me will support the request and get you up-to-speed. 
[11:35] <toma> Via a svn-repository you can prepare the package and then ask a sponsor to upload (regulary that happens in a matter of hours).
[11:35] <toma> It saves ugly merges and needless requests of syncs.
[11:36] <toma> links to the packages involved are on the agenda
[11:36] <Hobbsee> we certainly need an updated list of what is in there, so we know not to touch it in ubuntu
[11:36] <toma> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-kde-extras@lists.alioth.debian.org
[11:37] <allee> Hobbsee: the svn URL gives you a the list
[11:37] <Hobbsee> oh yeah, right, i see :P
[11:37] <Riddell> toma: are you saying more software should be maintained in kde-extras or that we should make better use of the current packages in kde-extras?
[11:37] <allee> Riddell: both does not hurt ;)
[11:37] <toma> Riddell: the packages in debians kde-extra's shpould be maintained there, as long as possible
[11:38] <Hobbsee> it has to be better maintaining them there than getting the programs off kdeapps.org and then finding that debian has packaged it later.
[11:38] <allee> Riddell: and every kde pkg in kubuntu but not debian can be added there
[11:38] <Riddell> allee: if someone want to do that, it would be cool :)
[11:39] <Riddell> I'm all for more use of kde-extras, especially if the package is already there I guess we should have a policy of it being the first resort
[11:39] <allee> Riddell: biggest problem up to know was 'not time to create an alioth account" ;)
[11:39] <Riddell> allee: who controls permissions on the pkg-kde svn?
[11:40] <allee> Riddell: the KDE core pkgs.  
[11:40] <Riddell> soon to include fabo I note
[11:40] <allee> permissions are set seperately for kde-extras.  
[11:40] <Riddell> allee: but kde-extras is also under pkg-kde yes?
[11:40] <allee> Riddell: yeah, fabo is amazing
[11:40] <allee> yes
[11:41] <allee> in the subdir kde-extras
[11:41] <seaLne> can you give an example of workflow using this?
[11:41] <Hobbsee> argh!  
[11:41] <imbrandon> yea exactly , thats what i'm wondering
[11:41] <imbrandon> the workflow
[11:41] <Riddell> it's also worth noting that ubuntu shouldn't depend on debian packaging infrastructure, nobody should feel they have to use kde-extras
[11:42] <toma> Hobbsee: my idea, tonio's execution
[11:42] <Hobbsee> right, yep.  it probably makes sense though
[11:42] <Lure> Hobbsee: talk with Tonio
[11:42] <allee> seaLne: I build digikam* form svn on kubuntu.  When I'm happy I ask on pkg-kde-extras ml for an upload.  Usually 24h later it's in debian and a bit later in kubuntu
[11:43] <allee> seaLne: Now when ready for an upload I ask for upload.  Rebuild a *~ach0dapper1 pkg and upload to my repo (until backports gets active)
[11:43] <imbrandon> allee: so in other words your saying we should just maintain the packages in debain and then sync them , isnt this the case 90% of the time already ?
[11:43] <Riddell> allee: where your repo?
[11:43] <allee> Riddell: http://www.mpe.mpg.de/~ach/kubuntu
[11:43] <toma> imbrandon: yes, but we see you break it now and then and make small changes to the ubuntu packages
[11:44] <toma> imbrandon: that means, we copy it in debian
[11:44] <allee> toma: post you repo too.  Your have more recent pkgs ;)
[11:44] <toma> imbrandon: and after that, we request a sync at kubuntu's side again
[11:44] <Hobbsee> you both have repos?
[11:44] <seaLne> how would that work for kubuntu specific stuff?
[11:44] <Hobbsee> it's probably important to avoid more duplication than absolutely necessary
[11:44] <toma> http://kubuntu.omat.nl
[11:44] <allee> Hobbsee: we all wait for -backports :(
[11:44] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: i do too, makes for good testing ;)
[11:44] <Hobbsee> allee: true
[11:44] <toma> (including kscope 1.4)
[11:44] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: konversation packages.
[11:45] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: you were *asking* for that, werent you.
[11:45] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: building now , even for edgy ;)
[11:45] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: sure sure, you said that last time :P
[11:45] <Hobbsee> sorry for the digression
[11:45] <Hobbsee> nixternal: now that's *definetly* a digression
[11:45] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: the ftb got fixed today
[11:45] <nixternal> ;(
[11:45] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yay :)
[11:45] <allee> seaLne: If there's really kubuntu specific stuff that can not merged.  we can use a branch/kubuntu
[11:46] <toma> allright, so does anyone object?
[11:46] <allee> seaLne: but for apps most if this stuff is of systematic nature and better fixed in kde.mk of cdbs
[11:46] <Riddell> toma: no objections, but just as I say that nobody should feel they have to go through debian if they feel it adds more hassle
[11:47] <imbrandon> Riddell: yea , i wanna "test" the workflow a bit, i got no objection to the theory but ..... well yea
[11:47] <Lure> allee: can you put this on wiki?
[11:47] <allee> seaLne: Main point is you one has a fix directly checkin in kde-extras svn repo saves sending patches merging later etc.
[11:47] <Lure> (how to for the people that would like to use debian svn)
[11:48] <allee> Lure: you have a existing page in mind or a new one?
[11:48] <imbrandon> allee: whom do I^W we poke for svn commit access then ?
[11:48] <Hobbsee> Lure: that'd be useful
[11:48] <Lure> allee: probably new one...
[11:48] <allee> imbrandon: ask on #qt-kde-debian on oftc
[11:49] <allee> or send an sign mail (as used for you alioth account) to pkg-kde-talk@alioth.debian.net (<- hope that correct)
[11:49] <imbrandon> hrm ok , hopefully its not pulling teeth like getting a DD is to upload a pkg
[11:49] <toma> imbrandon: not at all
[11:49] <Riddell> that's #debian-qt-kde  :)
[11:49] <Lure> allee: problem is that it is hard to get though ubuntu policies and then having to go through debian might be seen as additional complexity - I understand the end result is better, but getting ther is critical - this is where wiki helps
[11:50] <allee> imbrandon: no.  That it works so good is the reason I never felt motivated to apply for debian new maint process ;)
[11:50] <toma> imbrandon: dus to svn, it is pretty clear wat you do, so no need for long delays
[11:50] <toma> due
[11:51] <toma> you can create an account at http://alioth.debian.org/
[11:51] <allee> Lure: the pkg policies/requirements are the same.  I e.g. never test my pkgs on debian.  That's their task. I only promise works in kubuntu
[11:52] <Hobbsee> allee: ahh..interesting
[11:52] <Riddell> the policies are the same, it's mostly individual developers who have different standards, e.g. I'll approve stuff that isaac won't and the other way around
[11:52] <Riddell> we should move on
[11:52] <allee> Hobbsee: for 'normal' KDE apps this okay on kubuntu implies okay in debian
[11:52] <Hobbsee> yep
[11:53] <imbrandon> hrm ok, i'll for one look into it but i dont think it should be *required* yet, just my 0.2c
[11:53] <Riddell> imbrandon: it's not, and never will be
[11:53] <allee> imbrandon: agreed. *required* is bad.
[11:53] <Riddell> imbrandon: but it could well be a good idea in a lot of cases
[11:53] <imbrandon> yea
[11:53] <imbrandon> save alot of merges
[11:53] <Riddell> Hobbsee is next on the agenda
[11:53] <Hobbsee> oh am i?
[11:54] <Hobbsee> what do i get to be discussed about?
[11:54] <allee> imbrandon: if it works as good for others as it works for me. it will be used automaticly (let's them do some merges first ;)
[11:54] <Riddell> Hobbsee: amarok 1.4.2
[11:54] <Hobbsee> #
[11:54] <Hobbsee> Anyone got any patches they want to add into amarok 1.4.2? I'm planning to package it when it comes out, along with a few bugfixes.
[11:54] <Hobbsee> #
[11:54] <Hobbsee> Who wants to write the upstream version freeze exception report for amarok 1.4.2?
[11:54] <Hobbsee>     *
[11:54] <Hobbsee>       well IMO the person that packages it /should/ do this heheh but if you dont fell like it I can, let me know -- imbrandon 2006-08-10 17:43:31
[11:54] <DaSkreech> !paste
[11:54] <Riddell> Hobbsee: when is it out again?
[11:54] <imbrandon> *cough* i was inbetween there, but i'll go after Hobbsee ;)
[11:54] <Hobbsee> amarok 1.4.2 is due out on sunday, iv'e already started doing fixes for it
[11:54] <Riddell> imbrandon: appologies, missed that
[11:54] <imbrandon> hehe np
[11:54] <Hobbsee> if anyone else really wants to package it, feel free, just take my changes :P
[11:55] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: nyah.  devel meetings allow pastes
[11:55] <DaSkreech> Sorry knee jerk :)
[11:55] <Riddell> Hobbsee: please do package it, I have no paticular requests to be added
[11:55] <toma> Hobbsee: do you get a pre-release version, so we release on the same time?
[11:55] <imbrandon> all yours Hobbsee 
[11:55] <Riddell> Hobbsee: if you fancy doing dapper builds too I'm sure plenty of people would like that
[11:55] <Hobbsee> cool.  anyone else got requests?  if they do, can they file a bug on it under amarok, and assign it to me?
[11:56] <allee> Hobbsee: hint amorak is also in alioth ;) In people/dato not kde-extras
[11:56] <imbrandon> make sure it uses the new libvis 0.4 is all i request
[11:56] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, was planning to.  and whatever else needs building on that.  host on kde?
[11:56] <Hobbsee> allee: ahhh...right...
[11:56] <danimo> g'evening
[11:56] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, i fixed that.
[11:56] <allee> danimo: hi
[11:56] <Riddell> Hobbsee: on kubuntu.org (amarok doesn't release on ftp.kde.org)
[11:56] <Hobbsee> toma: nope, i have the beta1 working nicely here though
[11:56] <DaSkreech> Anything dependencies that would prevent a dapper release?
[11:56] <sebas> In fact, I think Amarok devs asked for a KDE account to put their stuff on.
[11:57] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: you could probably talk to the amarok devs and get one though
[11:57] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  of course.  i *meant* kubuntu.org.  i know that wasnt what i said :P
[11:57] <danimo> hi allee
[11:57] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: libvisual stuff, xinelib, iirc
[11:57] <Hobbsee> i'll get it running and into edgy first
[11:57] <Riddell> apachelogger will say when builds are available
[11:57] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: you have a deb posted for it yet? (for beta)
[11:57] <Hobbsee> yeah
[11:57] <imbrandon> DaSkreech: xcalibur and libvis iirc
[11:58] <bipolar> Amarok needs video support. I wish the amarok devs didn't have such an adversion to that.
[11:58] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: er, yeah, i did...i386.  check in buntudot.org/packages/~hobbsee/
[11:58] <DaSkreech> Whats Xcalibur for?
[11:58] <sebas> bipolar: Offtopic.
[11:58] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: ty
[11:58] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: it got axed.
[11:58] <DaSkreech> bipolar: Yse kaffine :)
[11:58] <toma> Hobbsee: would be nice to get kubuntu in the announcement
[11:58] <bipolar> Hobbsee: you havn't seen any patches for that, have you?
[11:58] <toma> Hobbsee: should i talk to them?
[11:58] <Hobbsee> bipolar: no, i just package it, and fix bugs
[11:58] <Hobbsee> toma: please do :)
[11:59] <bipolar> Hobbsee: ok. maybe I could do something... maybe...
[11:59] <toma> Hobbsee:how soon can you have thos packages after their release?
[11:59] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: they axed excalliber upstream
[11:59] <DaSkreech> Ok
[11:59] <Hobbsee> toma: depends if i'm home on sunday. you talking about in edgy, or at all?
[11:59] <imbrandon> allee: +1
[11:59] <Riddell> toma: depends if apachelogger gives us pre-notice of the build
[11:59] <Hobbsee> toma: in edgy, it'll have to go thru a upstream version exception report process
[11:59] <sebas> If they should add it to their announcement, you need packages for Dapper as well, I guess few people follow Edgy.
[11:59] <Riddell> Hobbsee: there's also a developers channel for amarok that can be useful around release time
[11:59] <imbrandon> allee: infact i'll make that right after this meeting
[12:00] <Hobbsee> allee: mine's not a repo.  it's just a random place i chuck stuff, and may or may not be able to date.
[12:00] <toma> dapper rebuild is not really a problem
[12:00] <toma> unless deps..
[12:00] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: as are most of ours , still
[12:00] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: right
[12:00] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: did you want to go?
[12:00] <allee> Hobbsee: so it's even more interesting that just a repo (for developers)
[12:00] <Hobbsee> then i'll keep going with my stuff?
[12:00] <Riddell> yes, imbrandon's item
[12:00] <toma> ok, i'll talk with them about a pre-notice, maybe to short term for this release
[12:01] <imbrandon> disscuss [WWW]  Wishlist Bug 49774 I think it makes a very valid point that is attainable by edgy release , if so deemed after the meeting I can create a spec -- imbrandon\
[12:01] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 49774 in kubuntu-meta "(WISH) Reduce the number of dependences in kubuntu-desktop" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/49774
[12:01] <Riddell> imbrandon: answer is talk to mvo about recommends support
[12:01] <imbrandon> i dont think that the exact implmentation he said
[12:01] <imbrandon> will work BUT
[12:02] <imbrandon> i was thinking kubuntu-base and kubuntu-{desktop,laptop}
[12:02] <Riddell> imbrandon: installing recommends by default will soon be turns on in apt, and then the kubuntu-desktop and other meta packages will move to Recommends so you can remove software
[12:02] <imbrandon> would work
[12:02] <Hobbsee> oh that...
[12:02] <imbrandon> Riddell: ouch that leaves alot of cleaning up in recomends for stuff in universe
[12:02] <Riddell> imbrandon: splitting up the meta package is never going to work, you'll always have people who want to uninstall something
[12:02] <imbrandon> *ALOT*
[12:02] <Riddell> imbrandon: it'll be interesting yes
[12:03] <seaLne> i'm not convinced your avaerage user would ever remove software
[12:03] <Hobbsee> in one sense, that's the purpose of a metapackage.  to install all needed stuff - and it can be removed
[12:03] <Hobbsee> but it does make it painful for upgrading
[12:03] <toma> seaLne: indeed, i still have cups at home ;-)
[12:03] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: yea but everywhere you look someone says DONT REMOVE IT or it will break
[12:04] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: true..
[12:04] <seaLne> it dose break some stuff like newly added stuff you wouldn't get
[12:04] <Hobbsee> ther'es a lot of....ah...shall we say...interesting help that seems to go on in #kubuntu.  or #ubuntu for that matter
[12:04] <Hobbsee> yeah
[12:04] <imbrandon> yea
[12:04] <imbrandon> Riddell: so whens the move to recomends ?
[12:04] <ryanakca> seaLne: most don't... well... from what I've seen from windows users (who refuse to even try the live cd) in my family...
[12:04] <Riddell> imbrandon: soon, mvo will make an announcement
[12:05] <imbrandon> and coudl we look at a kubuntu-base and kubunut-{desktop,laptop} as a fallback if recomnds fails horribly heh
[12:05] <Riddell> imbrandon: splitting wouldn't help matters
[12:06] <Riddell> and there's not much wrong with uninstalling kubuntu-desktop anyway, you can always reinstall it again on the upgrade
[12:06] <imbrandon> hrm it would help not having lappy tools on my desktop like bluetooth stuff
[12:06] <toma> imbrandon: kubuntu-base equals kdebase ?
[12:06] <imbrandon> true, i'm not thinking about me specificly though mostly users
[12:06] <nixternal> +1
[12:06] <Riddell> I've never noticed bluetooth tools getting in my way
[12:06] <Hobbsee> ah yes, why *do* we ship bluetooth stuff with k-d
[12:06] <Hobbsee> ?
[12:06] <imbrandon> toma: yea
[12:06] <sebas> George did, I think.
[12:06] <DaSkreech> What's the purpose of kubuntu-live?
[12:07] <ryanakca> I've uninstalled kubuntu-desktop in the past... forget why... 
[12:07] <Riddell> Hobbsee: for people who need bluetooth support (especially important if you have a bluetooth keyboard)
[12:07] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: this is just a guess... but for the live cd?
[12:07] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh...so you need it for install.
[12:07] <Riddell> DaSkreech: it's the extra packages on the live CD (mostly language packs)
[12:07] <allee> Hobbsee: why not? ;)
[12:07] <DaSkreech> Why would someone ever want to install that?
[12:07] <imbrandon> ryanakca: i do too after each install most of the time, but i can deal with breakage, i'm thinking most users
[12:08] <Riddell> Hobbsee: bluez does detect if it's needed or not
[12:08] <DaSkreech> Or a wacom detection one >_>
[12:08] <Hobbsee> allee: because it adds yet more stuff tothe repos that i never use, which i cant get rid of.
[12:08] <toma> printer-detection
[12:08] <toma> modem detection for kppp
[12:08] <Hobbsee> hmmm.  
[12:08] <allee> Hobbsee: ah
[12:08] <Riddell> linux also comes with 500 drivers you'll never use
[12:08] <Hobbsee> true
[12:08] <DaSkreech> :-)
[12:08] <imbrandon> drivers dont show up on the kmenu though
[12:08] <Hobbsee> it's more the menu options that i never use that annoy me
[12:08] <imbrandon> heh
[12:08] <Hobbsee> as i cant remove the buggers.
[12:09] <Riddell> Hobbsee: well you will when Recommends comes along!
[12:09] <ryanakca> yeah... thank god we at least have wacom built in... in debian (don't know if you still have to), you have to compile your own kernel to use graphic tablets
[12:09] <imbrandon> heheh ok i think that settles that then, we wait and see how recomeds works out
[12:09] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yay