=== Laser_away [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:18] ogra: ping [12:19] what do I add to debian/rules to apply patches? [12:19] ryanakca: are you using dpatch? === nixternal_ [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:20] Laser_away: is the school already over/ [12:20] ? [12:20] yeah === nixternal_ [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:20] :( [12:20] ajmitch: ping [12:20] you were at the first one weren't you? [12:20] yeah [12:20] Laser_away: ummm... dunno... I downloaded the kde pot patch thingy... and I put it in debian/patches/ ... which is what I'm supposed to do (from what I can tell of wiki/MOTU/School/PatchingSources) [12:21] yeah, are you using CDBS? [12:21] I'm guessing for KDE you are [12:21] debhelper [12:21] only debhelper? [12:21] Laser_away, Is that you LaserJock? Are you still here? You are dedicated! [12:21] Laser_away: yes... === ryanakca gulps [12:21] gnube: I spend a lot of time here ;-) [12:22] Cool. [12:22] Maybe that is one of the reasons Ubuntu is such a great distro [12:22] Dedication. [12:22] Debian people can be a little cranky, despite their genius. [12:22] yes, and especially dedication by the community at large [12:22] LaserJock, Absolutely, but you are a member of that community. [12:23] sure, and so are you ;-) [12:23] so I expect you to be here 12hrs a day :-) [12:23] just kidding [12:23] lol [12:23] Some members do more than others, hopefully one day I can contribute significantly as well. [12:23] I do my part, but not quite like you. [12:24] LaserJock: learn cdbs? [12:24] It is really important because packaging is kind of a black art. [12:24] well, I think the Ubuntu philosophy is "everybody contribute what you can, and together we can move mountains" ;-) === zealot [n=test@74.129.168.9] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:24] LaserJock++ [12:24] Sorry to be so off-topic everyone, I'll shutup now. [12:24] gnube: no problemo [12:24] :) [12:24] we like discussing how great we are ;-) [12:24] unless slomo comes along and contributes for you [12:24] thats cool too [12:24] true === tseng hugs slomo [12:25] Kubuntu is the bestest [12:25] ryanakca: you could [12:25] who is slomo? [12:25] I can't package either, don't feel bad. :) [12:25] he is #1 [12:25] gnube: no clue [12:25] I just make things. ;) === nixternal__ [n=nixterna@c-71-194-189-213.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:25] slomo is a real MOTU [12:25] :-) [12:25] I can... kindof... package [12:25] everybody has to start somewhere [12:25] nixternal__: hey... can I delegate you some more tasks? [12:26] lol [12:26] i can package python apps using distutils and simple things using gnome-autogen === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Seveas"] [12:26] I'm sure there was a time (unimaginable as it seems) when elmo first read the GPL [12:26] packaging python = hard [12:26] ryanakca: no it's not :) [12:26] python is one of the easier things to do [12:26] well, the new stuff is hard [12:26] mind pointing me to a wiki/HOWTO [12:26] I've got some python apps I want to package :) [12:26] but it's just been made as easy as replacing dh_python with dh_pycentral and going [12:27] LaserJock: elmo = slomo? [12:27] ryanakca: you don't have to use CDBS but many KDE apps use it [12:27] ryanakca: no [12:27] having issues right now, one sec ;) [12:27] ryanakca: ... elmo = elmo [12:27] ftp-master [12:27] ryanakca: cdbs + distutils used to mean a 1 line rules file, 2 lines if you needed to do patching [12:27] elmo = James Troup, master of Debian and Ubuntu [12:27] LaserJock: not so much of ubuntu [12:27] he is a slowly sysadmin these days [12:27] now you need a bunch of crap [12:27] yeah [12:27] Once one has a package, as I do, for a tool called Xnee, how does one upload it to Ubuntu? [12:28] is packaging harder in general than merges? [12:28] wrote himself out of the job :) [12:28] just got confused when you were talking about slomo and then talking about elmo [12:28] My debian sponsor kind of stinks [12:28] via launchpad [12:28] hehe [12:28] I suppose [12:28] gnube: REVU [12:28] And becoming a DD takes a long time [12:28] REVU eh? [12:28] hmm . . . [12:28] must read [12:28] gnube: and then bug laserjock or some other motu untill they go nuts and decide to revue your revu package [12:29] :) [12:29] ryanakca, Heh, you just told me the secret. ;) [12:29] wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:29] w00t. [12:29] Thanks LaserJock [12:30] ryanakca: review :) [12:30] why are debian people so mad at Ubuntu? They say that Ubuntu does not give back, but that does not seem like a legitimate criticism since so much can just be taken from Ubuntu. [12:31] Amaranth: review :) [12:31] debian has 1000 developers [12:31] most Debian people aren't mad [12:31] you cant generalize about their opinions [12:31] there are a few very vocal people who dislike Ubuntu === pirast [n=martin@p508B3D97.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:31] but I've had lots of good experiences with Debian [12:31] Some debian people help out in *buntu, and vice versa === tseng too [12:31] so have I [12:31] LaserJock, Have you? That is good to hear. [12:31] you kinda have to know who to go to though [12:32] slomo, ajmitch and I are on the Debian Mono team [12:32] debian-mentors is a good group [12:32] i wrote the first draft of the debian policy [12:32] I have heard lots of negative stuff, but I suppose I should not blame every DD for that. [12:32] tseng, Wha? [12:32] wha? [12:32] I used Debian for the first 3 months of my linux life... setting up wacom is(or was) a hassle... because you had to compile your own kernel... but other than that... awesome distro [12:32] tseng, For real? You wrote debian policy? Wow, cool. [12:33] gnube: haha for real [12:33] its a draft [12:33] ryanakca, I agree, but I have a Dell and debian and Dell are not freinds. [12:33] and other people have added stuff to it [12:33] draft or not, cool. [12:33] co-author or not, cool. [12:33] http://pkg-mono.alioth.debian.org/cli-policy/ === ryanakca gets on his knees, and starts chanting "tseng, ajmitch, slomo, tseng, ajmitch, slomo, ..." [12:33] that's sweet [12:33] ryanakca: haha [12:33] seb128 is on the debian gnome team [12:33] But, you know what I am going to say next . . . Mono is not Free Software! [12:34] It is based on Microsoft's C# [12:34] I'll try not to hurt you [12:34] I know. [12:34] seb128... he's the head of ubuntu-l10n-fr... right? [12:34] or are you really lacking clue? [12:34] I expect it. [12:34] I am wearing flame retardent underwear. [12:34] it isnt "microsoft's C#" [12:34] its an open standard [12:34] ryanakca: he used to be [12:34] including Intel, HP [12:34] used to? [12:34] hmmm [12:34] tseng, Still, they can change that "standard". [12:35] they can do whatever they want [12:35] and we can implement the standard [12:35] its standardized by internation standards bodies, not by MS [12:35] Toadstool: who is it now? Claude Paroz? [12:35] ryanakca: yeah, too much work with gnome, etc. [12:35] if you really don't know this you should keep your opinion to yourself next time [12:35] no offence [12:35] tseng, But they have some serious influence in those bodies. [12:35] sure, they originated the idea [12:36] ryanakca: hmm, it must be Claude indeed [12:36] Toadstool: gnome [12:36] heh [12:36] No offence taken, I speak a lot with Georg Greve, rms, et. al, so I have a bit of knowledge about this. [12:36] I am not sure what they are going to do maliciously to an open standard of ISO and EMCA [12:36] Toadstool: ty for helping with the gnomebaker sync request [12:36] "we standardize on doing destructive things on linux" [12:37] Toadstool: if it wasnt you forget i said anything [12:37] tseng, They mangled JAVA [12:37] Java isnt a standard [12:37] gnomefreak: no problem ;) [12:37] and microsoft didnt claim to implement something compatible [12:37] tseng, Lets not stray to far into semantics here. [12:37] I'm tiring of this [12:37] ok, fine. [12:38] if you wanted to go after WinForms you might have a leg to stand on [12:38] RMS FUD against the CLR is unwarranted by all accounts [12:38] Well, maybe you are not _so_ tired. [12:39] this is the same guy with nothing better to do but show up at a talk by ati employees and protest [12:39] You mean rms? [12:39] yes. [12:39] He has worked tirelessly for freedom. He is not the only voice, but he is an important voice, and often he is right. [12:40] anyway... [12:40] Free Software is really, really important. More important than Fspot or Beagle. [12:40] I'll stop now, perhaps this is not the correct forum. [12:40] it's a bit OT [12:40] right. :) [12:41] and I doubt any minds are going to be changed today ;-) === tseng applies mind control to LaserJock [12:41] Fair enough, thanks again LaserJock, see you soon! [12:41] if I had a mind it might work === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:41] Must go . . . [12:41] cya gnube === tseng counts to 10 [12:42] only 10? [12:42] ;-) [12:43] well, I'm I don't know the whole history of FLOSS etc. [12:43] its my opinion that rms was a leader 20 years ago and expects top billing to this day [12:43] as an example [12:44] but I think 90% of users would take Fspot and Beagle any day [12:44] I don't know the details [12:44] one of his lackies just suggested on the gnome-docs list that every instance of Linux be changed "to GNU/Linux or just GNU" [12:44] but it seems like Mono is open source, that's good enough for me [12:44] of course [12:44] i need to find the strings in question [12:45] it pinpoints the idiocy [12:45] I've gotten that a few times [12:45] these are really obscure [12:45] "Ubuntu" has to be "Ubuntu GNU/Linux" [12:45] yes, well [12:45] that was the kind of thing people see [12:45] which I still don't get but oh well [12:45] imo we might as well call it GNOME/Linux [12:46] if you went by lines of code [12:46] KDE/Linux [12:47] tseng: just teasin a bit, yea i see your point and totaly agree [12:47] Kubuntu KDE/Linux [12:47] GNOME/KDE/MOZILLA/Linux [12:47] and actualy it should be Linux/GNU since GNU are the base tools ( in some caes ) and linux is the kernel ;) [12:47] whatever. [12:47] anyway, I've seen both Linus and RMS say some pretty dumb things [12:48] but I respect what they've done [12:48] ... and life goes on === imbrandon loves the linus thread where he said "just use KDE" hehehe [12:48] LaserJock: exactly [12:49] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2006-July/msg00204.html [12:49] these are the strings proposed for change [12:49] enjoy. [12:51] "There is an ongoing confusion for years, which is harmful for the Free [12:51] Software Movement.." [12:51] holy crap! [12:51] ??? [12:51] there are 16 tracebacks to my last blog === Agent51 [n=Agent_5_@84-12-166-109.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:52] LaserJock: i am definately confused [12:52] spam tracebacks [12:52] ..to sex sites, brilliant === Agent51 [n=Agent_5_@84-12-166-109.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] [12:53] tseng: can you explain this at all? [12:53] I want to write about the reasons [12:53] why the GNOME Project was started, and about the danger of "Open [12:53] Source", which constantly threatens to bury the Free Software ideals [12:53] and turn them into something completely different and insignificiant. [12:54] open source is a threat to free software? [12:54] so [12:54] open source refers to being able to download the source code, generically [12:54] Free Software is more specific [12:54] guaranteing certain freedoms [12:54] ah, hmm [12:55] generally standardized by OSL or DFSG [12:55] both written by the same guy, actually [12:56] very roughly the right to modify and distribute without certain other restrictions [12:57] gpl has restrictions on this, but its still free.. where it gets complicated === tseng looks for doc [12:57] right, becuase I could say "you can download the source code, but you can't modify it"? [12:57] yes, obviously non-free [12:57] but is that open source? [12:57] yes [12:57] k [12:57] because you got the source code [12:57] its "open" [12:58] open source doesnt guarantee anything [12:58] now consider this: "you can download the source code and modify it, but you can't distribute your modified source code" [12:58] http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines [12:58] e.g., djbdns [12:58] this is what you should cite [12:58] http://www.opensource.org/ [12:58] and this [12:58] you obviously don't want either example we just talked about :) [12:59] yeah djb is a nut [12:59] yeah, I mean I've read the DFSG, I just didn't get why you would would have non-free open source [01:01] because you are a weirdo [01:01] and don't like the terms of the GPL/BSD/etc [01:01] hmm, well http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php seem like more than, "you can get the code" [01:02] well, hello confusion [01:02] mhm [01:02] opensource.org defines something close to DFSG [01:02] yeah, it says at the bottom [01:03] most of the stuff should probably be called Free [01:03] that it is DFSG-(debian specific stuff) [01:03] as people identify that with something specific [01:03] open source is not always specific [01:03] DJB-ware could be "open" source [01:03] I just avoid saying "free software" because people think it's just $0 cost [01:03] crimsun can correct me if im at all confusing [01:03] Free with a capital f [01:04] Libre also [01:04] yeah, I suppose that's true [01:04] I like FLOSS [01:04] it keeps my teeth clean and everything ;-) [01:04] sorry, bad joke [01:04] no, you don't [01:05] Jump to: navigation, search [01:05] Free/Libre/Open-Source Software, or FLOSS, is an alternative term for free software. It is used by those who wish to be inclusive or who do not want to take a side on whether "free software" or "open-source software" is a better term, although neither side has shown much enthusiasm for the term "FLOSS". [01:05] well, I like FLOSS except I have to explain it all [01:06] sorry if im not being helpful, its a pretty fine line most of the time [01:06] because I really couldn't care less what specifc term they use [01:06] right [01:06] I want to be able to tell my family what it "means" [01:06] but you want DFSG free [01:06] whatever they call it [01:06] yes, I think so [01:06] you just don't froth at the mouth over it [01:06] exactly [01:07] we're on the same page [01:07] frothing at the mouth includes demanding that DFSG is called "Free" and not "Open" [01:08] Critics have said that the term "open source" fosters an ambiguity of a different kind, in that it confuses the mere availability of the source with the freedom to use, modify, and redistribute it. [01:08] from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source [01:08] is the crux of it [01:09] as we said before somethings called Open don't meet the standard for Free [01:09] sometimes, the author just isn't interested in the word debate [01:09] I suppose, to me "open source" should be that DFSG goodness that is on http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php [01:10] that would be nice [01:10] but again, I'm not particular what you call it === tseng neither [01:10] anyway, I get what's going on now, thanks [01:10] as for GNOME, its always been Free [01:11] but I talk to miguel every day and he doesn't often get frothy-mouthed [01:11] so if I get some cool stuff from http://www.cafepress.com/opensourcestuff am I likely to get impaled? [01:11] only if you walk by a serious RMS fanboy === nixternal__ [n=nixterna@c-71-194-189-213.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:12] do you read everyone loves eric raymond [01:12] including bruce perens, author of dfsg [01:12] vs linux, rms === MatthewV [n=MatthewV@CPE-124-178-82-77.wa.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:12] even sabdfl === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:14] http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/terrorismistic [01:14] hello, Hobbsee [01:14] haha [01:14] hi tseng [01:14] hi LaserJock [01:15] LaserJock: (eric raymond threatened bruce's life) [01:17] Hey Hobbsee [01:17] hi TheMuso [01:17] TheMuso: (looking at your merges) [01:18] tseng: hehe, http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/slashdotted [01:18] crimsun: I think there is only one is there not? [01:18] LaserJock: this is a classic strip [01:18] you need the sabdfl [01:18] TheMuso: it's quite possible; I have been hacking up alsa this afternoon and haven't gotten a chance to check all the e-mails yet [01:19] LaserJock: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/cancomical-lynchpad [01:19] tseng: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/cancomical-lynchpad [01:19] yes! [01:19] heh [01:19] love it [01:19] crimsun: I'd say so, as my others have been done as far as I am aware. [01:19] LaserJock: this site is funny because its all true [01:19] THe only one outstanding is spiralsynthmodular afaik [01:19] ok [01:20] tseng: ok, I gotta go to a BBQ, thanks for the relaxation there ;-) [01:20] LaserJock: have a nice time [01:20] wow um. === imbrandon [n=brandon@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.imbrandon] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:21] did I just break ff in edgy, or is anyone else enable to use https:// ? [01:21] (the 2.0 beta) [01:21] *tries* [01:21] unable, not enable [01:21] i can use https to gmail [01:22] and my own web server [01:22] crimsun: i do wish evolution would not crash on start [01:23] hmm, I must have broken it for that session; LP works fine now. [01:23] thanks, tseng [01:23] np [01:34] can someone feeling brave do the merge of libnjb? [01:34] looks like it'd be useful to have as a dep of amarok. [01:34] s/dep/build dep, etc/ [01:36] in about 25 mins, sure [01:37] TheMuso: when you do merges/sync requests, can you chuck the package in the subject of the bug too? it's really annoying to see all these merge requests, but not what belongs to what :P [01:38] Hobbsee: No problem. [01:38] TheMuso: i think i'm guilty of the same thing, actually === Hobbsee has been getting lazy with sync requests. [01:38] Hobbsee: We all live and learn. [01:38] true [01:39] Things like this I tend to take on board, and just do them next time. [01:39] I'm kinda like that. [01:40] TheMuso: that's cool :) [01:41] TheMuso: it's not a problem, it's just something i noticed [01:41] I know that. [01:41] I was assuming one could look at the bug, and see the package name. :) [01:43] TheMuso: that is true [01:43] TheMuso: but i've been recovering from my errors, not uploading things [01:44] hehe [02:14] Hobbsee: what's the issue with libnjb? [02:15] it seems a fairly straightforward merge if you wanted to do that [02:15] it's even syncable [02:15] crimsun: no particular issue, looks like we'll need it for amarok. didnt really know what to change, eyeballing it :P [02:15] ah nice [02:16] it can go either way, really [02:18] I presume you want to keep the HAL FDI file, which means it'll be a merge [02:19] I'll go ahead and merge it if you haven't already filed the sync req [02:19] crimsun: i've done nothing with it [02:19] hi [02:19] crimsun: Thanks heaps === TheMuso goes out for a bit. [02:20] is it acceptable to put "Suggests: kubuntu-desktop" for kde apps? [02:20] ...I wouldn't. [02:20] kk [02:20] then I wont :) === plugwash [i=plugwash@p10link.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:23] and "kdelibs4-dev, libqt3-mt-dev" go into build-depends? [02:23] or is it "Depends"... (those two keep on confusing me)... [02:24] Depends is for stuff you would need at run-time, Build-Depends is for stuff you need during package build [02:24] ryanakca: they go in the build-deps [02:25] kk [02:26] Hobbsee: your love for the evil cdbs is contagious... I'm learning/kind of relearning packaging :) [02:26] hehe! [02:26] cdbs isnt evil :) [02:26] cdbs is very nice :) [02:26] saves room in debian/rules [02:26] exactly [02:26] and incredibly useful for global fixes. [02:27] how do you build a source package? I'm trying to figure out that part... i've got everything done (let's say)... untill that part [02:28] debuild -S -sa -rfakeroot [02:28] still debuild? === ryanakca always though debuild was a deb helper thingy [02:29] yes, use debuild === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:30] Hobbsee: except with -rfakeroot now? I always ran "debuild -S -sa && sudo pubuilder update && sudo pbuilder build ../-.dsc" [02:30] Heya gang [02:31] hey bddebian [02:31] Hi ryanakca === neutrinomass [n=pandis@ppp26-100.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === hub [n=hub@toronto-hs-216-138-231-194.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:34] ryanakca: that works too [02:34] Hobbsee: whats the difference? [02:35] Hi Hobbsee [02:35]