[01:35] <Hobbsee> morning all
[01:36] <toma> morning
[01:37] <nixternal> hey everyone, we are getting ready to start editing this weeks UWN, for Kubuntu stuff you would like added, let me know please!
[01:37] <nixternal> thanks everyone!
[01:38] <nixternal> i am going to do some screenies of some new stuff as well to show off for us
[01:40] <Hobbsee> nixternal: the start of the g-p-m stuff (kde-guidance)
[01:40] <nixternal> Hobbsee: link me to further info if possible...that would be awesome
[01:41] <Hobbsee> nixternal: er, that might be the spec?  also, Riddell made a blog post about it
[01:41] <Hobbsee> it's on plant
[01:41] <Hobbsee> *planet
[01:41] <nixternal> good deal
[01:41] <nixternal> just keep plopping ideas, i will transfer em up ;)
[01:42] <Hobbsee> it's a bit early to announce amarok stuff
[01:42] <Hobbsee> seeing as it hasnt been released yet
[01:43] <nixternal> true
[01:43] <nixternal> Hobbsee: stuff from last saturday until today would be best
[01:44] <Hobbsee> nixternal: we had a meeting, and discussed the alioth stuff.
[01:44] <nixternal> we can leave teasers to make them read the next UWN though with pre-release tricks
[01:46] <Hobbsee> true
[01:51] <toma> nixternal: maybe as a tip of the week a listing of the best lines for sources.list
[01:51] <toma> to get all the up-to-date goodies for dapper
[01:51] <nixternal> no problem
[01:51] <nixternal> main, universe, multiverse, security..and what not
[01:51] <nixternal> good idea tomoa
[01:51] <nixternal> arg
[01:51] <nixternal> toma too ;)
[01:52] <toma> ;-)
[01:52] <Hobbsee> nixternal: were you doing the meeting minutes?
[01:52] <toma> ow yes, i wanted to ask that too
[01:53] <nixternal> if i was, i wasn't asked...but, i have been super busy as well...i can probably get to them in the next couple of days if that is ok
[01:53] <nixternal> anyhow..food time..bbiaf ;)
[01:53] <Hobbsee> right
[01:53] <toma> nixternal: i regulary reed them back, so i appreciate your work
[01:54] <nixternal> thanks toma, glad i can help! plus it saves me from pointy stick attacks
[01:54] <Hobbsee> haha
[01:55] <toma> nixternal: yes, you have to be carefull with The Manager around
[01:55] <Hobbsee> me too.  particularly for last meeting
[01:55] <Hobbsee> haha
[01:55] <toma> haha
[01:56] <toma> i have a vague idea your points take the longest ;-)
[01:56] <toma> curious how you are going to organize them
[01:56] <Hobbsee> toma: hehe, true.  actually, i've been cutting them off a bit so that once iv'e got the answer, it goes ot the next point
[01:57] <Hobbsee> toma: yeah, me too, really :P
[01:57] <toma> yeah, last meeting was an exception
[01:57] <Hobbsee> toma: certainly sending out notification emails a bit quicker, getting the stuff on the wiki to quote the particular bits of the articles, etc, so people have had the time to have a look and a think about things
[01:57] <toma> although i've a new point for the agenda already
[01:57] <Hobbsee> i frequently find i'm reading whatever they're talking about during the meeting already, cos i havent seen it
[01:57] <Hobbsee> toma: add it :)
[01:58] <Hobbsee> it's easier to poke people into moving on if i'm chairing
[01:58] <Hobbsee> i just find that i zone out during longer points, thta seem to just go around in circles.
[01:58] <toma> yeah, the wiki page should have thje 'intro', so we can skip straight to the thing 
[01:59] <Hobbsee> toma: exactly.  we wouldnt run it like the distro meetings, but something close to that might work
[01:59] <Hobbsee> i havent spoken to Riddell over all of this though, which i'd need to do at some point
[01:59] <toma> riddell usally does a good job in keeping it short, comparing to what i see in live companies
[01:59] <Hobbsee> oh definetly
[02:00] <Hobbsee> Riddell:  does a *great* job.  i just want to make it better again :)
[02:00] <toma> the point i want to discuss is likeback http://basket.kde.org/likeback.php
[02:01] <toma> Hobbsee: you are pretty confident of yourself, non?
[02:01] <Hobbsee> toma: um, is that a problem?
[02:01] <toma> likeback or your confidence?
[02:01] <Hobbsee> my confidence
[02:02] <toma> no it is not.
[02:03] <Hobbsee> toma: right.  i've done similar stuff before, but not exactly this.  not worked in such a big team before, for one thing.
[02:03] <Hobbsee> toma: so when i'm in a mood where i'm coping at all, i can take over the world and be confident, no problem :P
[02:03] <toma> good ;-) confident and a planning, awesome
[02:03] <Hobbsee> at other times...well...i'm not going into them :P
[02:04] <toma> ah, pleasssseee...
[02:04] <Hobbsee> hmm?
[02:04] <Hobbsee> toma: read partway thru that likeback stuff - that looks really cool!
[02:05] <toma> yes, maybe we should add it to a knot thingie to get some feedback
[02:05] <toma> if we need any, i dont know
[02:06] <toma> Hobbsee: ow, and i talked to the amarok people
[02:06] <Hobbsee> does it apply just to basket, or to all of them?
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ah yeah.  they didnt like me :(
[02:07] <Hobbsee> what'd they say?
[02:07] <toma> the release could be delayed a bit due to some bugs
[02:07] <toma> he did not know for sure
[02:07] <Hobbsee> yeah, i was there to hear that
[02:07] <toma> and he told me that for major release they do give time to packagers
[02:07] <toma> but not for point releases
[02:08] <toma> i asked them to consider that
[02:08] <Hobbsee> oh yeah, that's right, i was going to subscribe to that mailing list
[02:08] <Hobbsee> yeah, okay
[02:08] <toma> and they received similar request from gentoo
[02:08] <toma> there is a packagers mailinglist for amarok
[02:08] <toma> there you can receive the tarball in advance
[02:08] <Hobbsee> havent seen where it is yet
[02:09] <toma> let me check my irc logs, one sec
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Amarok  	Amarok Mailing List
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Amarok-bugs-dist 	[no description available] 
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Amarok-promo 	[no description available] 
[02:09] <Hobbsee> could be any of them
[02:09] <Burgundavia> any interesting news this week that UWN should report?
[02:10] <imbrandon_> not that i'm aware of, you would be good to poke Riddell when he is srround tomarrow and check the meeting minutes
[02:10] <imbrandon_> s/tomarrow/monday
[02:10] <Burgundavia> right, it is going out tonight, in less than 4 hours
[02:11] <imbrandon_> guess not then ;)
[02:32] <Hobbsee> Riddell: can we kill off kwifimanager once and for all, now that we have knm/wlassistant?
[02:32] <Hobbsee> and when do we install and run knm by default?
[02:32] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: knm is knetwork-manager?
[02:32] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: yep :)
[02:32] <imbrandon_> yea
[02:33] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: it's just far too long to type.  like l-k-h, etc
[02:33] <Burgundavia> the problem is that nm/knm conflicts with ifupdown
[02:33] <imbrandon_> k-d-s and tons of others ;P
[02:33] <Hobbsee> that too
[02:34] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: true, you have to do it one way or the other.  hopefully you get to avoid ifupdown though
[02:34] <Hobbsee> although it's bad if you've got a console only login though.
[02:34] <imbrandon_> Hobbsee: yea but what about server ;)
[02:34] <imbrandon_> heh
[02:34] <Burgundavia> yep
[02:34] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: then you dotn have it installed anyway, so you just use dhclient and all that by default
[02:34] <Burgundavia> plus knm does not deal with static addreesses very well
[02:35] <imbrandon_> s/very well/at all
[02:35] <Burgundavia> in fact, you have to remove nm just to get a static address to take
[02:35] <Hobbsee> true that.  i think that's a networkmanager problem?
[02:35] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[02:35] <imbrandon_> but its great for lappys , one more reason for k-{desktop,laptop} hehehe
[02:36] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: question was more "is it nm's problem, as opposed to knm's?"
[02:36] <Burgundavia> afaik, there are no plans for supporting static ips
[02:36] <Burgundavia> they both use the same backend
[02:36] <Hobbsee> ah ok
[02:36] <Hobbsee> nm=network manager != network-manager-gnome
[02:36] <Hobbsee> oops, missed an = in there.
[02:36] <imbrandon_> lol
[02:44] <imbrandon_> wb rob
[02:44] <nixternal> Burgundavia: what are you doing in my playground?
[02:44] <nixternal> ;)
[02:45] <Burgundavia> nixternal: dappling in the dark side
[02:46] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: fyi: http://en.opensuse.org/Projects/KNetworkManager
[02:46] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: ooh, yay.  another kubuntu developer then
[02:46] <nixternal> that is #ubuntu-devel, you are in geek heaver, #kubuntu-devel ;)
[02:46] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: I didn't say I had ever installed kubuntu
[02:46] <nixternal> my lord
[02:46] <nixternal> heaver?
[02:46] <nixternal> heaven
[02:46] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: oh dear...
[02:47] <imbrandon_> Burgundavia: dont make me or Hobbsee /op ;)
[02:47] <imbrandon_> hehe
[02:47] <nixternal> hehe
[02:47] <Burgundavia> I pull rank
[02:47] <nixternal> oooh
[02:47] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: what about it in particular?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> I have been around Ubuntu for longer than either of you
[02:47] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: that is your information on what knm is
[02:47] <imbrandon_> hehe and ?
[02:47] <imbrandon_> lol
[02:47] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: true.  i knew that :P
[02:48] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: right
[02:48] <nixternal> imbrandon: i have been working on it, he does some jedi mind trick stuff and gets you to install ubuntu
[02:48] <nixternal> don't mess with him
[02:48] <Burgundavia> since you seemed confused about the relationshipo between nm and knm
[02:48] <imbrandon_> although i do enjoy ubuntu on my lappy ( just get rid of the damn orange )
[02:48] <nixternal> luckily he wasn't online today, so i got ubuntu uninstalled and kubuntu edgy back on ;)
[02:49] <nixternal> imbrandon i like the orange
[02:49] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: right..
[02:49] <nixternal> i don't know why
[02:49] <nixternal> and the glx compiz stuff is cool as wel
[02:49] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: there we go
[02:49] <imbrandon_> whats wrong with compiz xgl on kde nixternal ? runs fine here 
[02:50] <Burgundavia> funny. I have been involved with Ubuntu since october 2004 and yet I have never even tried Edubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu, even in the live cd versions
[02:50] <imbrandon_> hahah Burgundavia grab a live 6.06.1 kubuntu dapper
[02:50] <imbrandon_> you'll never go back ;)
[02:50] <Burgundavia> funny, I really don't feel the need
[02:50] <nixternal> i followed the forums and didn't have fun, put it that way
[02:51] <imbrandon_> Burgundavia: most windows users say the same thing ;)
[02:51] <imbrandon_> nixternal: the forums dont do it the easy "edgy" way ;)
[02:55] <imbrandon_> arg Hobbsee your not building on voyager atm are you ?
[02:55] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: nope
[02:56] <imbrandon_> kk dont for the next ~1 hour or so please
[02:56] <Hobbsee> cool
[03:01] <imbrandon_> i *cough* deleted the base.tgz
[03:01] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: was this on purpose, or by accident?
[03:01] <imbrandon_> accident
[03:01] <imbrandon_> lol
[03:01] <imbrandon_> its rebuilding now
[03:01] <imbrandon_> heh
[03:01] <Hobbsee> is it rebuilding with the right distro?
[03:01] <imbrandon_> yes 
[03:01] <Hobbsee> cool
[03:02] <Hobbsee> silly imbrandon :P
[03:02] <imbrandon_> nah thats easy , i got pbuilders down pat now
[03:02] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: that's still smarter than deleting .gnupg/ .irssi/ and ./thunderbird
[03:02] <imbrandon_> i spent 2 days learing all the quarks about them
[03:02] <imbrandon_> ouch
[03:02] <imbrandon_> heh
[03:02] <Hobbsee> s#./thunderbird#.thunderbird/#
[03:03] <imbrandon_> keep a nightly backup ;) rsync is your friend
[03:03] <Hobbsee> yeah, or be a little more careful with rm -rf
[03:03] <imbrandon_> and s#./th#.th#g would work ;) heheheh /me is just being an arse now
[03:04] <Hobbsee> good point.
[03:04] <imbrandon_> or s/.\/th/.th/g
[09:00] <Hobbsee> *pokes*
[09:00] <Hobbsee> anyone around here who's used gstreamer engine a bit?
[09:01] <Hobbsee> !edgy
[09:01] <ubotu> edgy is the current development version of Ubuntu. Version 6.10, codename "Edgy Eft". For support head to #ubuntu+1. For its release schedule, see !schedule
[09:02] <Hobbsee> !schedule
[09:02] <ubotu> Ubuntu uses a strict timetable for releases, which means that sometimes newly released programs miss the timetable. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases for more. Edgy schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule
[09:02] <imbrandon> gstreamer is teh sucks , thats why 90% of things have it removed hehe
[09:02] <imbrandon> moins mornfall
[09:02] <imbrandon> err afternoon for ya ;)
[09:03] <crimsun> Hobbsee: what's the issue?
[09:03] <imbrandon> hehe
[09:03] <Hobbsee> crimsun: we may get some gstreamer deps in a package related to amarok
[09:04] <crimsun> as in reinstating the former amarok-gstreamer package or some ilk?
[09:04] <imbrandon> ummm Hobbsee wont that tick the amarok devs off a bit as they droped support for it ( thats why they are all pissy at fedora atm )
[09:04] <Hobbsee> crimsun: that too.
[09:04] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: they're the ones who are asking my opinion on it in the first place
[09:05] <imbrandon> if they can make it actualy work cool , heh , /me shudders at the last incarnation
[09:05] <imbrandon> please tell me amarok-xine wont be droped though 
[09:06] <Hobbsee> it wont
[09:06] <imbrandon> also i would look at the common customizations spec too and talk with those guys as that was one of the things that the 3rd party apps installed ( amarok-xine ) when amarok-gstreamer was in uses
[09:07] <Hobbsee> http://shadowfax.homelinux.net/~guru/moodbar/
[09:07] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: it's w.r.t that ^
[09:07] <Hobbsee> which requires a lot of gstreamer deps for the second package
[09:07] <imbrandon> ye the moodbar was droped becouse of it afaik
[09:07] <imbrandon> last i talked to them atleaste
[09:07] <imbrandon> ( arround 1.4.1beta1 )
[09:08] <Hobbsee> it got rewritten
[09:08] <crimsun> stupid firewall/gateway
[09:08] <imbrandon> (rev 572258) puts the moodbar support into amarok. It it adds absolutely no  new dependencies, but will not be very functional without the above package installed.
[09:08] <crimsun> I hope that Web site is links-friendly!
[09:08] <imbrandon> crimsun: it is
[09:08] <imbrandon> all text
[09:08] <Hobbsee> hey, if we have a package in main, can we have a recommends in universe?
[09:09] <Hobbsee> or do all the recommends need to be in main too then?
[09:09] <mdz> Hobbsee: recommends should always be satisfiable
[09:09] <imbrandon> well if we move to recomends like riddell said i doubt it
[09:09] <mdz> it should be a Suggests otherwise
[09:09] <Hobbsee> oh hi mdz, didtn know you were watching
[09:09] <Hobbsee> right, yeah
[09:10] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: the lower patch adds the same functionality with no gstreamer deps
[09:10] <mdz> I wasn't, but I've stopped by to check in
[09:10] <Hobbsee> ah, fair enough
[09:10] <Hobbsee> :P
[09:10] <imbrandon> hehe
[09:10] <mdz> I am neither big nor scary and I will soundly refute any arguments to the contrary
[09:14] <Hobbsee> mdz: right...
[09:14] <mdz> bug report?
[09:15] <Hobbsee> mdz: one that i confirmed, as i'd gotten other people to confirm it on irc, and you full on yelled at me over confirming my own bugs.
[09:15] <mdz> Hobbsee: bug#?
[09:15] <Hobbsee> i dont have it now, it was a while ago :P
[09:16] <mdz> I'm not in the habit of yelling at anyone, though I could very well have asked you not to do that
[09:16] <mdz> it helps to accompany changes with an explanatory comment in those situations
[09:16] <Hobbsee> true.  i think i forgot that
[09:33] <Hobbsee> crimsun: possible amarok-gstreamer would be a long way off, if it happened at all.  and gstreamer would have to be way more stable.
[10:53] <seaLne> Hobbsee: could you look at Bug #56168 and Bug #23326 are wishlist
[10:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56168 in k3b "k3b should *not* calculate md5 sum of images by default" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/56168
[10:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 23326 in k3b "k3b should unmount a CD before burning" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/23326
[10:53] <seaLne> s/are/i think are/
[10:53] <crimsun> 56168 is a valid wishlist imo
[10:54] <crimsun> as is 23326
[10:55] <seaLne> they are certainly not things we can do anything about
[10:56] <imbrandon> and both are filed upstream too iirc
[10:56] <Hobbsee> yeah.  i'd mark them as upstream
[10:57] <seaLne> ah is there an importance of "upstream"?
[11:00] <Hobbsee> well, you add the upstream bugtracker
[11:01] <imbrandon> wishlist it and find the bug upstream and link it with the +upstream
[11:01] <seaLne> Hobbsee: if you could wishlist them i'll sort the upstream
[11:01] <Hobbsee> seaLne: for both?  sure
[11:01] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: can do that too.
[11:03] <seaLne> are you supposed to just create products so that you can do upstream?
[11:04] <imbrandon> dosent kde have a product already ?
[11:04] <seaLne> is it kde rather than k3b?
[11:05] <seaLne> i have no idea what products are supposed to be
[11:05] <Hobbsee> if it doesnt have k3b, pick the closest
[11:05] <imbrandon> well if it uses the kde bug tracker i would use the kde product
[11:05] <Hobbsee> that's what i've been using
[11:05] <Hobbsee> and say it's the kde bug tracker, of course.  just file it under the closest package name
[11:05] <seaLne> kdemultimedia?
[11:06] <imbrandon> wha ?
[11:06] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: s/package/product
[11:07] <imbrandon> seaLne: use the kde product and file it against the kde bugtracker for the bug number you find
[11:07] <Hobbsee> yeah, that.
[11:07] <seaLne> there isn't a kde product
[11:07] <Hobbsee> seaLne: that'll do :P
[11:07] <Hobbsee> seaLne: i've yet to see the product actually do much - as long as you get the right number for the kde bugtracker, it seems to all work fine
[11:08] <seaLne> it means tho that the bug is now listed under kdemultimedia rather than k3b
[11:08] <Hobbsee> seaLne: the upstream bug bit is, iirc
[11:09] <imbrandon> just the upstream bit
[11:09] <seaLne> hmm ah its confusing
[11:10] <Hobbsee> true
[11:10] <Hobbsee> seaLne: welcome to LP :P
[11:10] <seaLne> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/k3b/+bug/56168 and https://launchpad.net/products/kdemultimedia/+bug/56168
[11:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56168 in kdemultimedia "k3b should *not* calculate md5 sum of images by default" [Unknown,Unknown]  
[11:12] <Hobbsee> seaLne: looks good.
[11:21] <seaLne> and i thought ubuntu bugs were badly written, half of k3b bugs have a subject of k3b can't burn or similar
[11:32] <toma> moguh
[11:48] <Hobbsee> seaLne: heh.  yep
[12:44] <Lure> Hobbsee: crimsun did upload powersave, can you look at kpowersave: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2874
[12:45] <Hobbsee> Lure: sure.  does it work?
[12:45] <Lure> Hobbsee: of course, otherwise I would not upload it to revu... ;-)
[12:45] <Lure> Hobbsee: works for me (disclaimer)
[12:45] <Lure> ;-)
[12:46] <Hobbsee> hehe
[01:40] <Hobbsee> !ssh
[01:40] <ubotu> ssh is the Secure SHell protocol (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SSHHowto). Putty is a nice SSH client for Windows, which can be found at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/
[01:50] <seaLne> Lure: thanks for adding that bug comment i'd forgotten it wasn't in the bug report oops :)
[01:50] <Lure> seaLne: no pp
[01:51] <Lure> s/pp/pb/
[02:21] <toma> imbrandon: ping
[02:28] <seaLne> http://basket.kde.org/likeback.php is pretty cool if people haven't seen it
[02:29] <Hobbsee> seaLne: yeah.  did that get added to the meeting agenda?  and does upstream have to include that, or do we?
[02:29] <Hobbsee> presumably that's more of an upstream thing.
[02:30] <seaLne> yeah but not nessesarily
[02:30] <toma> Hobbsee: probably pretty easy to patch kdelibs to show up in all apps
[02:30] <Hobbsee> seeing as i'm suspecting that people will mostly report upstream bugs with it.
[02:30] <Hobbsee> toma: indeed.  but hwat do we do with the bug reports?
[02:31] <toma> we can disable the bug thingie
[02:31] <seaLne> what were you meaning about the agenda?
[02:31] <Hobbsee> seaLne: add it to the meeting agenda, so everyone sees/discusses it?
[02:31] <toma> we only want the 'i like' button, dont we?
[02:31] <seaLne> hehe
[02:33] <freeflying> how do we encrypted the passwd of user in livecd? DSA? SHA? thanks
[02:33] <danimo> I'd be careful about likeback
[02:33] <danimo> upstream is working on a way to make the feedback maintainable
[02:33] <seaLne> "you clicked don't like, we presume this was a mistake and have changed your vote to like" :)
[02:34] <Hobbsee> toma: hehe!
[02:34] <seaLne> danimo: any more details?
[02:35] <danimo> seaLne: no, only that there is a debate going on at kde-core-devel
[02:35] <danimo> seaLne: read it via gmaine.org nntp if you care
[02:36] <toma> danimo: the idea is good I think, the feedback can be enormous indeed
[02:38] <danimo> toma: yes, we need some sort of rubbish filter
[02:38] <danimo> toma: and means to translate good ideas into implementable strategies
[02:38] <seaLne> would you just enable it before release?
[02:38] <danimo> seaLne: one suggestion was to always enable it on betas and optionally enable it on final releases
[02:39] <seaLne> yeah it could look bad for releases
[02:39] <toma> i'm not so sure to enable it on final releases, but we'll learn about that soon enough
[02:39] <danimo> toma: I agree with ellen there
[02:40] <danimo> toma: only enabling it on beta's empowers the geek-type of testers to push their ideas
[02:40] <toma> danimo: i'm a bit behind on k-c-d, have not read everything
[02:40] <toma> but ellen is usually right ;-)
[02:40] <danimo> toma: and those already know how to use bugs.k.o anyway
[02:40] <danimo> toma: yes, she still is in touch with reality :)
[02:41] <toma> o, that is true, but prepare for a lot of feedback if you enalbe it in final releases
[02:41] <danimo> Hobbsee: she is
[02:41] <danimo> hi el :)
[02:41] <Hobbsee> ahh :)
[02:41] <toma> ah ;-)
[02:41] <el> hi Hobbsee, hi danimo :)
[02:42] <danimo> may I introduce: Hobbsee: ellen of openusability fame: Ellen: Sarah, the kubuntu Community Goddess
[02:42] <Hobbsee> hah
[02:42] <toma> i think it is a bit too easy maybe for people to report nonsense with likeback
[02:42] <danimo> Hobbsee: I think they call Goddesses Community Managers nowadays
[02:42] <Hobbsee> el: you'd be http://people.kde.nl/ellen.html <-- that ellen, then.
[02:42] <danimo> Hobbsee: I'm old school :)
[02:43] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:43] <el> yes Hobbsee 
[02:43] <el> good to see another woman here  :)
[02:43] <Hobbsee> gotcha
[02:43] <Hobbsee> yes
[02:43] <Hobbsee> el: take over the world together?
[02:43] <el> ytou are talking about likeback?
[02:43] <danimo> el: yes
[02:43] <toma> Hobbsee: you need a picture to show to el now
[02:43] <el> haha, definetly :)
[02:43] <danimo> el: we still need a sensible way to filter feedback
[02:43] <danimo> el: actually, we do have the same problem today already
[02:44] <Hobbsee> http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9838/hobbseecar10ii.jpg
[02:44] <Hobbsee> http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3909/hobbseecar22fk.jpg
[02:44] <Hobbsee> there you go
[02:44] <Hobbsee> el: ^
[02:44] <danimo> el: bugs.k.o contains a lot of crap
[02:45] <el> Hobbsee, you live in australia, no?
[02:45] <seaLne> k-d-c discussion: http://lists.kde.org/?t=115532209400011&r=1&w=2
[02:45] <el> danimo, yes, that's a real problem
[02:45] <Hobbsee> el: yeah, sydney
[02:45] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:45] <toma> s/other//
[02:45] <el> :)
[02:46] <danimo>  /~ It's the end of the world as we know it ~/
[02:46] <toma> rem
[02:46] <el> danimo, do you thnk of introducing likeback for everybody, or just for beta testers?
[02:46] <danimo> el: I agree with your point
[02:46] <danimo> el: we are biased by our tech-focused beta-testers way too much
[02:47] <danimo> el: otoh, they can provide good bug reports
[02:47] <seaLne> :)
[02:47] <toma> yes, it is a good qay to find typo's, dialog trouble and that stuff
[02:47] <el> yeah, but i had to think about my talk with mpt (hobbsee knows him, i guess) who said that making bug reports too easy will overload every bug system
[02:47] <Hobbsee> el: i dont know mpt
[02:47] <Hobbsee> i dont know most people
[02:47] <danimo> el: so if we decide "against" those lowhanging fruits in favour of a less biased feedback we definately need an instance between reporters and developers
[02:47] <Hobbsee> el: i've only ever met stevenk and ajmitch in person.
[02:47] <el> Hobbsee, he is user interface designer for launchpad
[02:47] <Hobbsee> el: ahh...
[02:48] <el> danimo, yes, i think so too
[02:48] <danimo> el: but who would do that?
[02:48] <danimo> el: and why?
[02:48] <toma> not having to report back to each and every report saves a lot of time
[02:48] <danimo> el: we need to know that so we can actually attract people for those positions
[02:48] <danimo> toma: right
[02:49] <danimo> e.g. opensuse.org has a great bug squad, but those are all paid
[02:49] <el> danimo, hmm... i mean the input is really very fruitful for usability people. but we are too few....
[02:49] <danimo> el: no, you are the wrong group
[02:49] <danimo> el: I imagine people that are not too much into technology, but know about about kde to judge
[02:49] <el> for the bugs we are the wrong group, but not for feature requests, likes and dislikes
[02:49] <danimo> el: and people that are open to new technologies and ideas
[02:49] <danimo> el: well, those have to be forwarded appropriately
[02:50] <danimo> el: maybe, each group (hci, dev, docs) could send one representative to be member of the like-back squad
[02:50] <Hobbsee> el: you're german.  i'm very jealous.
[02:50] <danimo> Hobbsee: yeah, being in germany helps a lot for all purposes of KDE development
[02:50] <el> why are you jealous to being german? it's pretty cold and rainy here, Hobbsee ;-)
[02:50] <Hobbsee> hah
[02:50] <danimo> Hobbsee: even better, she's in berlin
[02:51] <Hobbsee> yeah, okay, i dont like cold and rainy
[02:51] <el> ;-)
[02:51] <danimo> Hobbsee: so she's got all cool folks around
[02:51] <el> more an more kde people move to berlin now, that's cool
[02:51] <Hobbsee> so if i ever got to germany, i could gatecrash at one of your places.  right.
[02:51] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:51] <el> we met matthias a few days ago, that was fun
[02:52] <danimo> el: ettrich? cool
[02:52] <toma> danimo: do you have any idea what kind of filter would be needed?
[02:52] <el> Hobbsee, haha, my guest room is yours :)
[02:52] <el> danimo, yes, we got pretty drunk ;-) wodka.... 
[02:52] <toma> liek, what do we dont want to know
[02:52] <Hobbsee> el: nice.  i'll hold you to that, you know :P
[02:52] <danimo> el: hehe, yeah, matthias is a cool guys to drink with, if he actually decides to get drunk
[02:52] <Hobbsee> el: although i think you're safe.  i doubt i'll get to germany. and my german would be extremely rusty.
[02:52] <el> Hobbsee, sure! :)
[02:52] <danimo> Hobbsee: we could change that, no worries :)
[02:53] <Hobbsee> hah
[02:53] <el> Hobbsee, no need to know German  ;-)
[02:53] <el> ok, back to likeback....
[02:53] <danimo> Hobbsee: you have no ideas how many americans run aroun in berlin without knowing one single word of german :)
[02:53] <Hobbsee> el: yeah, you all seem to speak pretty good englihs
[02:53] <Hobbsee> danimo: point.
[02:53] <danimo> el: yeah, bring us back to topic
[02:53] <danimo> :)
[02:54] <el> i think there should also be an easy tag system for users - so that the first classification is done on user level
[02:54] <Hobbsee> danimo: we have a topic?
[02:54] <danimo> Hobbsee: likeback
[02:54] <Hobbsee> oh dear, this feels like some of our kubuntu meetings again
[02:54] <el> haha
[02:54] <danimo> Hobbsee: nah
[02:54] <danimo> Hobbsee: usability
[02:54] <toma> Hobbsee: yesterday you wanted to take over those meetings, so you can practise now.
[02:55] <Hobbsee> well, obviously.  i was looking for more detail than that.
[02:55] <danimo> ok, so we have a problem: too much input, very little gold nuggest inbetween common whining and actual bug reports
[02:55] <toma> el: what kind of tags?
[02:55] <Hobbsee> toma: true.
[02:55] <el> Hobbsee, i was at the last ubuntu sprint in paris and helped a bit out with the ui of several applications
[02:56] <superstoned> ppl, does anybody know whazzup with the memory usage of etch?
[02:56] <superstoned> a clean login (yes, with a lot of apps in the session) uses twice the ram from the previous release, dapper (i upgraded yesterday). for example, klipper ATM uses 9.5 % of my 1 gig ram!!! KLIPPER!!! wtf???
[02:56] <Hobbsee> superstoned: etch?  this is kubuntu, mate
[02:56] <superstoned> efty
[02:56] <superstoned> i mix up the names :D
[02:56] <Hobbsee> edgy?
[02:56] <superstoned> yeah
[02:56] <Hobbsee> el: gotcha.  which apps?
[02:56] <Hobbsee> superstoned: want to pastebin ps aux?
[02:57] <el> toma, that's something we have to find out. possibly parts of the applicatications in questions
[02:57] <superstoned> ok
[02:57] <el> Hobbsee, system settings, power management, file transfer dialog... several specs that were discussed there
[02:57] <danimo> el: bugzilla has a karma system for users already
[02:57] <toma> el: that info is already provided, the objects name gets returned, so we exactly know which dialog the user is talking about
[02:57] <Hobbsee> el: nice :)
[02:58] <Hobbsee> el: i didnt follow UDS that closely - i was in the middle of uni exams, etc.
[02:58] <danimo> el: my idea would be the following:
[02:58] <el> toma, for the bugs, yes. but not for like/dislike
[02:58] <Hobbsee> hence i dont know
[02:58] <superstoned> hOBBSEE: http://paste.uni.cc/9289
[02:58] <danimo> el: how about a ticket system for likeback?
[02:58] <toma> el: for ilike/dislike as well
[02:58] <toma> el: let me show you the admin interface, one sec
[02:58] <el> toma, ok
[02:59] <danimo> el: nah, scrap that
[02:59] <el> danimo, ticket system?
[02:59] <danimo> el: scap that
[02:59] <danimo> el: lets see...
[02:59] <danimo> el: we currently have bugzilla for reporting all kind of issues
[02:59] <Hobbsee> superstoned: doenst look too unreasonable.  konsole looks a bit high, maybe
[03:00] <danimo> el: so the question is: do we want to use bugzilla for all kind of likeback feedback?
[03:00] <danimo> el: I think it doesn't make sense
[03:00] <toma> http://toma.kovoks.nl/admin/view.php
[03:00] <danimo> el: since not all likeback issues will be actually bugs or suggestions
[03:00] <superstoned> well, hobbsee, point is, yesterday, before i shut down, it was 50% of this... only diff is i did a upgrade to edgy. so i wonder if anybody has seen this too?
[03:00] <danimo> el: so my idea was to have a ticketing system
[03:01] <el> danimo, it might overfloat bugzilla.  i think only approved issues should go into bugzilla
[03:01] <danimo> el: that allows to handle like likeback reports
[03:01] <Hobbsee> superstoned: which kde were you using before and after upgrade?
[03:01] <superstoned> 3.5.4
[03:01] <seaLne> with a way to migrate bugs to lp/bugs.k.o?
[03:01] <danimo> el: like a small small frontend that generates feedback
[03:02] <danimo> el: err, tickets from feedback
[03:02] <toma> current bugzilla has more problems. As soon as there is a new release, old bugreports should be closed and people should be asked to reopen if needed. that would keep the trash level way lower
[03:02] <danimo> el: it would then take a small group of people to review the feedback and turn those tickets that actually contain issues to the bug tracker
[03:02] <Hobbsee> superstoned: would you happen to be running X from a chroot or something? 
[03:02] <Hobbsee> toma: hmmm...i wonder if we could do that with LP....
[03:02] <el> danimo, different from the one that toma just posted? 
[03:02] <danimo> el: that's about the same what trolltech does if you send reports to qt-bugs
[03:03] <superstoned> nope, tough i started it from the commandline by hand cuz when i use KDM i can't see fonts on the screen, it's all white...
[03:03] <toma> Hobbsee: it is a small thing to ask from a user imho
[03:03] <superstoned> with X
[03:03] <danimo> toma: that looks good
[03:03] <superstoned> that's why i use XGL now
[03:03] <Hobbsee> toma: true.  i wonder if/how that would work with LP.
[03:03] <el> danimo, yes, sounds reasonable. but if toma's admin interface would allow to transfer issues to bugzilla it would be ok, no?
[03:03] <danimo> el: absolutely
[03:03] <danimo> el: I hadn't have a look at toma's interface yet
[03:03] <superstoned> toma, hobbsee: i agree old bugs should be closed after a new release, yes. keeps things clean.
[03:03] <el> danimo, http://toma.kovoks.nl/admin/view.php
[03:04] <danimo> el: I just saw it
[03:04] <Hobbsee> superstoned: unfortunately, dapper and edgy bugs are filed at the same time, so i'm not sure how you'd figure that out.
[03:04] <danimo> el: all it would take is a "create bug report from feedback"
[03:04] <el> danimo, jupp
[03:04] <toma> indeed
[03:04] <el> still, who should go through all the reports and why?
[03:04] <el> developers won't have the time, usability neither...
[03:04] <danimo> el: that's the point
[03:05] <danimo> el: if we want to do this, we need to attract a new type of contributors
[03:05] <el> yes
[03:05] <toma> i'm happy to keep an eye on them as author of the app
[03:05] <danimo> el: sorta like those who always wanted to spend time on the project, but couldn't
[03:05] <el> Hobbsee, community goddess - how do we get new contributors???
[03:05] <toma> just because there are also positive feedback
[03:05] <danimo> el: the amount of positive likes should keep the motivated we home :)
[03:05] <superstoned> anyway, nobody noticed big mem usage compared to dapper, i guess, so it's likely an anomaly here. anyone noticed the text doesn't show?
[03:05] <toma> something missing in bugzilla
[03:06] <Hobbsee> el: good question.  do tell when you find the answer.
[03:06] <el> :)
[03:06] <el> danimo, jupp. 
[03:07] <Hobbsee> el: we need to get our current devs active in the most useful ways possible, before bothering to get mroe new people
[03:07] <danimo> this way we can turn the tech-savvy people into "community translators"
[03:07] <Hobbsee> fortunately, that's already starting to happen
[03:07] <toma> if the upstream author only sees a new flow of bugreports, then that would not work. 
[03:07] <Hobbsee> el: unfortunately, you cant say "go attack the buglist" because they dont really have the expertise to fix the bugs.
[03:07] <danimo> toma: well, if those bugreports are good, he will
[03:07] <toma> so a filter, which removes all 'i like' items and makes new reports from the i dont like. would not work for me
[03:07] <danimo> toma: like it would also be their job to find duplicates, etc
[03:08] <danimo> toma: no, this won't work purely automatically
[03:08] <danimo> although I think we could automate a lot
[03:08] <danimo> like the feedback
[03:09] <toma> i just see it as a database with reaction i would walk through when i'm entering hacking mode
[03:09] <el> Hobbsee, yeah, that's true. but right now, we were referring to contributors who go through the LikeBack feedback reports to order them, not fix the bugs. 
[03:09] <danimo> "Dear User, I have read your LikeBack entry and forwarded it to the developer of <application>. If you want to follow the activity on this report, visist <url>. Thanks for your contribution. XY
[03:10] <Hobbsee> el: true.
[03:10] <Hobbsee> currently i'm not even being able to comprehend a solution to that
[03:10] <danimo> we need to find a pitch for the dot story
[03:10] <danimo> like a motivation
[03:10] <Hobbsee> danimo: i could axe murder you?
[03:11] <danimo> Hobbsee: sure, come over and try :)
[03:11] <Hobbsee> danimo: hehe.  it could be a talking point, you know.
[03:11] <danimo> Hobbsee: hmm?
[03:11] <Hobbsee> "hey, i was axe murdered last week"
[03:12] <seaLne> isn't axe a bit old fashioned? chainsaw would be less work
[03:12] <el> haha
[03:13] <Hobbsee> lol
[03:13] <toma> there is a difference for small apps and bug apps
[03:13] <toma> kmail has enough feed back, although the quality is not that high. 
[03:14] <danimo> yes
[03:14] <danimo> we face that problem a lot
[03:14] <Hobbsee> heh.  bug apps
[03:14] <toma> smaller apps hardly have feedback
[03:14] <Hobbsee> toma: yes, but they surely shouldnt need it, as they're non-bug apps, by definition :P
[03:14] <Hobbsee> hi bddebian 
[03:14] <danimo> toma: well, for instance with kmail, we only occasionally get feedback from people who found their mails trashed
[03:14] <Hobbsee> bddebian: can go thru all the bugs.
[03:15] <danimo> toma: but the more people we get to report the incident, the better the chance to reproduce the underlying problem
[03:15] <danimo> toma: so "bug apps" have a chance there, too
[03:15] <toma> danimo: exactly, but i dont think likeback is suitable for it
[03:15] <toma> that
[03:15] <seaLne> one of the problems is that there isn't an easy way to automatically find dups
[03:15] <bddebian> Heya folks
[03:15] <bddebian> Hi Hobbsee
[03:16] <toma> buzilla isnt either btw
[03:16] <bddebian> Hobbsee: I can? :-)
[03:16] <Hobbsee> bddebian: yep
[03:16] <seaLne> bddebian: unfortunatly you won't have time to sleep for the rest of your life
[03:16] <toma> seaLne: but, how difficult would it be to write that?
[03:16] <el> hm, toma, but if imagine to be a non-technical user: wouldn't you be frustrated if you're able to give LikeBack feedback to a bug-free app, but not to a bug app?
[03:16] <danimo> toma: maybe that's wanting too much
[03:17] <bddebian> seaLne: Well I'm used to that lately :-)
[03:17] <toma> el: yes. I dont have all the answers here
[03:17] <seaLne> toma: to me it seems difficult i imagine its a IR problem
[03:18] <el> toma, i think if we decide to offer LikeBack in final releases, then it should be available for the majority of apps, and especially for the core apps
[03:18] <danimo> el: true
[03:20] <toma> danimo: why? if you would make a system where a user can report bugs which are reproducable.. let them enter each step. the second user can choose from the pulldown of previous users or enter a new step. we could catch dup. reproducable bugs
[03:20] <toma> el: ok, but then a filter would only be needed for the large (&buggy) apps
[03:20] <el> yes, probably, toma 
[03:20] <seaLne> assuming you could detect dups, a possibility could be to set a threshhold of X people must have reported this before it gets escalated?
[03:20] <toma> kjots author can probably deal with the feedback
[03:20] <el> toma, yes
[03:30] <toma> seaLne: for bugs which are reproducable it is usually easy to fix them
[03:31] <toma> so even a single report would be enough for me
[03:31] <Hobbsee> hey cool.  kwifimanager isnt on the menus in edgy.
[03:32] <danimo> Hobbsee: very good
[03:33] <Hobbsee> at least i know it works now :_
[03:33] <Hobbsee> yay.  it has another bug though :P
[03:33] <seaLne> i was thinking as a way to make it easier to go through them if you saw that 5 people had reported the same thing you might look at it more closely than the thousand other reports
[03:34] <toma> seaLne: yes, you are right
[03:34] <el> seaLne, yes, it helps to set priorities for fixing bugs
[03:35] <toma> but what we miss is an organised system to report reproducable bugs
[03:36] <toma> and a system to cleanup the current bug system
[03:40] <el> toma, well, bug trackers have a two-fold functionality: on the one hand, they report bugs to developers. on the other hadn, they help users to calm down when they were frustrated by the system.
[03:41] <el> toma, for frustrated users, it reporting a bug must be really easy. writing down reproductions steps is alreaday too much in many cases
[03:41] <el> on the other hand, reports that cannot be reproduced won't help the developers...
[03:41] <toma> indeed, just about o say that ;-)
[03:41] <Hobbsee> neat that they get you to email with a backtrace
[03:42] <seaLne> you have never had amarok crash?!
[03:42] <seaLne> wow
[03:42] <Hobbsee> nope
[03:42] <el> is the information in the backtrace usually sufficient to identify the source of the problem?
[03:42] <Hobbsee> i dont think so
[03:42] <seaLne> el: unlikely
[03:42] <toma> valid backtraces should be reported with one click (report yes/no)
[03:42] <Hobbsee> el: dunno.  i'm not good with backtraces.  it had a lot of info though.
[03:42] <el> toma, yes
[03:43] <toma> el: valid backtraces are perfect
[03:43] <el> and possibly a free text field to write some angry lines ;-)
[03:43] <toma> yes ;-)
[03:43] <seaLne> Hobbsee: i rarely have amarok not hang/crash on me
[03:43] <el> (which is then removed before sent to the developer, haha)
[03:43] <seaLne> hehe
[03:43] <toma> haha
[03:43] <Hobbsee> seaLne: wow
[03:43] <Hobbsee> http://rafb.net/paste/results/5hjbSv91.html
[03:44] <toma> the problem is mostly that distributions dont ship the symbols needed for a valig backtrace
[03:44] <toma> by default
[03:44] <Hobbsee> toma: which ones are they?  gdb, or osmething else?
[03:45] <seaLne> Hobbsee: do you listen to streams much?
[03:45] <Hobbsee> seaLne: no
[03:45] <Hobbsee> bandwidht limit, remember?
[03:45] <toma> Hobbsee: that are the -dbg packages
[03:45] <seaLne> ah, well streams seem to be the main problem with amarok
[03:45] <Hobbsee> toma: true that.  that's one heck of a lot of packages
[03:47] <seaLne> is listening to a 128k stream for an hour really ~0.5Gb or is my maths as bad as that seems?
[03:47] <toma> Hobbsee: well, there should be a separate repository with the same packages, build with debug enables or something... 
[03:47] <toma> enabled
[03:47] <Hobbsee> toma: true
[03:48] <toma> if an app crashes without valid debug, it could offer to install that version of the app.
[03:48] <seaLne> toma: that sounds good
[04:28] <Hobbsee> hey nasty.  2 amarok crashes in one day.
[05:18] <seaLne> its "good" to see the cd burning problem is affecting gnome stuff aswell
[06:03] <hunger> Hi there.
[06:03] <hunger> Is there a way to stop that guidance power manager thing from offering to hibernate?
[06:05] <hunger> Anyone working on better icons for it? The current set looks like the battery is half full when it really is at 100%...
[06:12] <hunger> BenC: Pretty sure... I need to enter a passphrase to get to the filesystem that fsck complains about.
[06:12] <hunger> BenC: And I only get asked for the passphrase after waiting.
[06:13] <hunger> BenC: That dmesg log is not really helpful I am afraid:-(
[06:15] <hunger> BenC: Which script outputs this driver loading message?
[06:16] <hunger> BenC: Ah, S10udev...
[06:17] <hunger> BenC: assuming that went OK the delay could be caused in S11mountdevsubfs.sh, S13pcmciautils, S15module-init-tools, S17procps.sh, S20checkroot.sh, S22mtab.sh, S26lvm and S27evms.
[06:20] <hunger> mountdevsubfs.sh seems unlikely... as does S22mtab.sh and S20checkroot.sh (which might actually be the fsck right after the trackpad thinking about it:-)
[06:54] <Lure> hunger: no BenC here...
[06:58] <hunger> Lure: Oh, sorry. Wrong channel once again:-(
[06:59] <Lure> hunger: no problem for us, just that you get your message trough... ;-)
[06:59] <hunger> Lure: It is a dup bug anyway:-)
[07:00] <hunger> I just hope it will get fixed anyway...
[07:00] <Lure> hunger: regarding guidance power manager - it is first alpha release and you should report feedback to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuPowerManagementFeedback
[07:01] <hunger> Lure, Thanks, I will!
[07:14] <hunger> Lure: Which package contains the guidance power manager?
[07:46] <Lure> hunger: kde-guidance
[08:14] <Lure> now I remember where I have seen purple color windows: http://r-101.blogspot.com/ (see Aug 1992) ;-)
[08:19] <toma> where do the tar-balls merge-o-matic mentions go?
[09:13] <Sime> what was that url for the patched kdelibs + kdebase?
[09:45] <toma> Sime:  deb http://www.buntudot.org/people/~imbrandon/packages/simes-patches/debs/ ./
[09:49] <Sime> thx
[09:50] <Sime> toma: is there a wiki page about these patches already?
[09:50] <toma> Sime: no idea
[10:41] <Sime> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuKDEMedia
[10:41] <Sime> does now