[12:16] <LaserJock> wow, I've got a ton of mail in my motu-reviewers box
[12:16] <LaserJock> way to go
[12:17] <imbrandon_> hehe
[12:17] <crimsun> hmm, impressively I have none
[12:17] <imbrandon_> this is gonna be fun i can already tell
[12:19] <LaserJock> crimsun: you don't get motu-reviewers?
[12:19] <crimsun> I'm not subbed
[12:19] <crimsun> (iirc)
[12:20] <LaserJock> hehe, smart man
[01:30] <LaserJock> mmm, nothing like Debian spam bugs :-)
[01:35] <Hobbsee> morning all
[01:37] <TheMuso> Hey MOTUs./
[01:38] <gnomefreak> morning
[01:40] <LaserJock> hi Hobbsee!
[01:41] <Hobbsee> ;)
[01:46] <imbrandon_> moins everyone
[01:50] <TheMuso> Hey imbrandon_
[01:52] <Hobbsee> so i dont know anything :P
[01:52] <Burgundavia> anybody uploading anything last week they think should be mentioned in UWN?
[01:52] <Burgundavia> new versions, new features, etc.
[01:52] <imbrandon_> i'm not either, i get enough mail as is ;)
[01:53] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: no sorry, i cant upload amarok till they release it
[01:53] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: merges list is coming down though
[01:55] <Burgundavia> oh LaserJock, you owe the UWN a writeup on your MOTU school session
[01:57] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: oh yeah
[02:52] <welshbyte> how do i find out which package provides time-admin ?
[02:52] <micahcowan> welshbyte, time-admin is gnome-system-tools.
[02:52] <Hobbsee> packages.ubuntu.com usually
[02:52] <micahcowan> You find this out by typing "dpkg -S /usr/bin/time-admin" (or whatever the path was)
[02:52] <welshbyte> ok thanks :)
[02:52] <micahcowan> but don't submit bugs to it...
[02:52] <welshbyte> ?
[02:53] <micahcowan> I was recently informed that it's not supposed to be in working order atm (that is, if you're running edgy?)
[02:53] <welshbyte> yep, it seems very broken
[02:54] <micahcowan> I submitted a couple bugs related to setting the time with it, and the NTP-install stuff... but the developers are very aware that it's broken, so it'd be more fruitful I guess to wait until it's "supposed" to be working, and then test it. :-)
[02:55] <welshbyte> hehe ok
[02:55] <micahcowan> There was some talk that they might just put the dapper version of time-admin back in, if necessary. They seem to be giving it a major API overhaul atm...
[02:58] <welshbyte> well i'm glad you were around to tell me that, saved me a bit of bother :)
[03:11] <Bazzi> hm, ntp and stuff actually works better for me than with dapper, in a vm that is
[03:14] <welshbyte> bddebian: still on revu strike?
[03:14] <bddebian> welshbyte: Nah but I would like him to tell me if I am doing something wrong
[03:15] <welshbyte> i'm curious too, it's been a while since he said "well..."
[03:16] <bddebian> What is this no .mo file crap from linda?
[03:17] <StevenK> bddebian: Crap. Thanks.
[03:18] <StevenK> bddebian: Can I have the complete message?
[03:19] <bddebian> StevenK: Thanks for what?
[03:20] <bddebian> Linda: Unable to find a suitable .mo file!
[03:20] <StevenK> Which version?
[03:20] <bddebian> StevenK: Of what?
[03:20] <StevenK> Of Linda
[03:21] <bddebian> Oh
[03:21] <bddebian> Dunno, these are all over some packages on REVU :-)
[03:21] <StevenK> Ah.
[03:21] <StevenK> Right. Who do I talk to about fixing Linda on REVU?
[03:22] <bddebian> Probably siretart
[03:22] <Burgundavia> bddebian: did you upload any packages last  week that you think are worth mentioning in UWN?
[03:22] <StevenK> siretart: Ping
[03:22] <bddebian> Burgundavia: I don't do anything of worth :-)
[03:22] <Burgundavia> bddebian: right
[03:25] <bddebian> Heya tuxmaniac, TheMuso
[03:25] <tuxmaniac> bddebian> booo
[03:25] <tuxmaniac> bddebian> and am at home town with family :D
[03:25] <tuxmaniac> Yay!
[03:26] <bddebian> tuxmaniac: Cool
[03:52] <welshbyte> where does python search for libraries/modules when you import them these days (i.e. in edgy)?
[03:56] <LaserJock>  /usr/lib/python2.X/site-packages/
[03:59] <welshbyte> d'oh, python-osd installs an empty /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/pyosd/  :(
[04:00] <TheMuso> Don't forget the python policy and python-central/python-support
[04:00] <welshbyte> all the files go in /usr/share/python-support/python-osd/pyosd
[04:00] <TheMuso> with /usr/share/python-{support,central}
[04:00] <welshbyte> should it be looking in there then? it can't seem to find the pyosd module
[04:09] <LaserJock> I don't think they are installed there in the end
[04:09] <LaserJock> they should be installed to /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages in the end
[04:09] <LaserJock> as /usr/share/python-* is not in Python's  path I don't think
[04:10] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock
[04:10] <LaserJock> hi bddebian
[04:10] <welshbyte> right, so the python-osd package needs work? should i file a bug?
[04:13] <ajmitch> LaserJock: no, they really do get installed there
[04:13] <ajmitch> postinst does symlink stuff
[04:13] <ajmitch> that's part of the new python policy - stored in one place rather than in /usr/lib/python2.x
[04:14] <welshbyte> in that case it looks like the symlinks aren't getting set up in python-osd
[04:14] <LaserJock> does python-central do symlinks as well?
[04:14] <LaserJock> I thought that was only python-support
[04:15] <ajmitch> check the policy & docs for them
[04:15] <LaserJock> but anyway, my point is that Python path hasn't changed
[04:16] <ajmitch> LaserJock:
[04:16] <ajmitch> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root    64 2006-08-10 13:50 messages.py -> /usr/share/pycentral/pyflakes/site-packages/pyflakes/messages.py
[04:17] <LaserJock> hmm, that's not for all python stuff?
[04:17] <LaserJock> because you need to seperate python 2.3 from 2.4 and also 3.5
[04:17] <LaserJock> 2.5 rather
[04:18] <ajmitch> that's why we dropped python2.x-foo binary packages & have the policy now
[04:18] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:18] <LaserJock> but they are still byte-compiled for each version
[04:18] <LaserJock> as far as I know
[04:18] <ajmitch> of course
[04:19] <ajmitch> otherwise you get a performance penalty each time you run stuff
[04:20] <LaserJock> so my understanding was that python-* byte compiled for all the installed python versioins
[04:20] <LaserJock> versions
[04:20] <LaserJock> but I could be getting really messed up
[04:20] <ajmitch> yes
[04:20] <ajmitch> that's why installing stuff can be a bit slow
[04:21] <ajmitch> but it's best to do it then rather than compiling on every use
[04:21] <LaserJock> yes, I know
[04:21] <LaserJock> but my question was why /usr/share/pycentral/pyflakes/site-packages/pyflakes/messages.py doesn't have any versioning
[04:21] <ajmitch> because it's a .py
[04:22] <LaserJock> ah right
[04:22] <ajmitch> I did  ls -la /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/pyflakes/
[04:22] <ajmitch> and that was 1 file
[04:22] <LaserJock> ok, well I gotta get going
[04:22] <LaserJock> thanks for the info
[04:22] <ajmitch> ok, bye
[04:27] <welshbyte> so, should i file a bug on python-osd? :)
[04:31] <ajmitch> might as well
[04:35] <ajmitch> it has a missing postinst, so something is broken
[04:36] <bddebian> So ajmitch are you goint to tell me?
[04:36] <bddebian> Err going
[04:36] <ajmitch> bddebian: hm?
[04:37] <imbrandon_> [15:52]  <bddebian> ajmitch: I'm still working on your damn REVU stuff even though I'm probably doing them all wrong
[04:37] <imbrandon_> [15:57]  <ajmitch> well...
[04:37] <imbrandon_> [15:58]  <bddebian> well what?
[04:37] <ajmitch> and you've been waiting all this time? :)
[04:37] <ajmitch> hehe
[04:37] <bddebian> imbrandon_ :-)
[04:37] <imbrandon_> he's been wondering all afternoon ;)
[04:38] <ajmitch> I don't think there was too much that I spotted that was badly wrong
[04:38] <ajmitch> just things like FTBFS - you could suggest Build-Depends: dpatch
[04:38] <ajmitch> in the case where that happened
[04:38] <imbrandon_> ajmitch: you rember that ccache command to show the stats off the top of your head ?
[04:39] <bddebian> ajmitch: Ah
[04:39] <ajmitch> CCACHE_DIR=/path/-to/cache ccache -s
[04:39] <imbrandon_> thanks
[04:40] <imbrandon_> hell yea, got it working , w00t
[04:40] <ajmitch> imbrandon_: hm?
[04:40] <imbrandon_> heh finaly tookt he time to get ccache working with pbuilder the "right way"
[04:40] <imbrandon_> took*
[04:41] <ajmitch> which is?
[04:41] <ajmitch> I'd love to hear what the "right way" is meant to be :)
[04:41] <imbrandon_> the way i was doing it but you HAVE to set a BUILDUSERID and a BUILDUSERNAME or the $path dosent get transfered
[04:41] <ajmitch> right
[04:41] <imbrandon_> bug is pbuilder apparently ( got that from debian bts )
[04:42] <imbrandon_> thats why it wasent hitting my ccache dir before , it dident have both of those set
[04:42] <imbrandon_> in the pbuilderrc
[04:42] <imbrandon_> i set those and its working heheh
[04:42] <imbrandon_> just tested with kdelibs lol
[04:43] <ajmitch> ok
[04:45] <ajmitch> welshbyte: filed a bug?
[04:45] <imbrandon_> ahh you mean about the "right way" , i mean that i got it working with the pbuilderrc instead of a hookdir script
[04:45] <ajmitch> right
[04:45] <imbrandon_> yea i WAS before but it s kinda a pita
[04:46] <imbrandon_> and this is better , even if i clean the base or make a new one etc it still works
[04:46] <welshbyte> ajmitch: https://launchpad.net/bugs/56187
[04:47] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56187 in python-osd "python-osd doesn't set up symlinks to modules on install" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] 
[04:47] <ajmitch> ok
[04:47] <ajmitch> I think I've fixed it now anyway
[04:47] <ajmitch> just rebuilding to check
[04:47] <welshbyte> cool
[04:49] <ajmitch> good, fixed, will upload & close bug
[04:49] <welshbyte> ajmitch: great, thanks :)
[05:09] <bddebian> Hmm, anyone know much/anything about the LaTex license?
[05:10] <imbrandon_> barely
[05:12] <imbrandon_> haha bddebian check out the second comment down on this
[05:12] <imbrandon_> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=191480&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=15736530
[05:12] <imbrandon_> thats classic
[05:14] <bddebian> imbrandon_: Heh :-)
[05:16] <imbrandon_> hrm anyone know how to assign a mouse key to a keyboard key , ie make ummm ctl+f12 "right click" ?
[05:16] <bddebian> imbrandon_: In what, X?
[05:17] <imbrandon_> yea X and/or kde
[05:17] <bddebian> I think you can do it in xorg.conf can you?
[05:17] <imbrandon_> preferably x so i can use the same key in gnome/kde
[05:18] <imbrandon_> dunno , actualy the reason i ask is f12 used to ( still does ) in dapper "right click" my mouse on my ibook ( since there is no right mouse button )
[05:18] <imbrandon_> but in edgy that functionality seems to be gone
[05:18] <imbrandon_> i'm sure a config is just not set right but i dunno what makes it happen, i guess xorg.conf might ;)
[05:19] <imbrandon_> i'm assumeing in dapper X did it not kde becouse gnome/kde both used the same binding too
[05:20] <imbrandon_> not that big of a deal but annoying to not beable to "right click" heh
[05:25] <bddebian> :-)
[05:26] <bddebian> OK, reviewing is starting to get boring :-(
[05:57] <imbrandon_> hehe
[06:01] <welshbyte> wow how'd it get to 5am
[06:45] <imbrandon_> ahh ajmitch you probably know most if not all whats on this page , but if not check it out, i found it very usefull when messing with the "advanced" pbuilder stuff like ccache and distcc
[06:45] <imbrandon_> http://edseek.com/~jasonb/articles/pbuilder_backports/advpbuilder.html
[06:46] <imbrandon_> i might try to wikify some of that for the CategoryMOTU later as it took me FOREVER to figure some of those things out
[06:46] <LaserJock> cool
[06:47] <imbrandon_> heya LaserJock ;)
[06:53] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[07:54] <imbrandon> wb Hobbsee
[07:54] <Hobbsee> hi imbrandon
[07:54] <imbrandon> guess what ? hehe
[07:55] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: do tell :P
[07:55] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: you fixed the machine?
[07:55] <StevenK> He broke it harder?
[07:55] <imbrandon> my domain transfer FINALY went through, now i just got to setup my email account again so i dont miss any email
[07:55] <imbrandon> whiule the dns server arround the world update
[07:55] <Hobbsee> yay!
[07:55] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: ohh yea the machine is fixed up too
[07:56] <imbrandon> heh
[07:56] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: hey, there's a merge listed for wine on MoM - you might want to do that one
[07:56] <imbrandon> it only took 10 minutes of so to build a new base.gz
[07:56] <imbrandon> who's is it ?
[07:56] <Hobbsee> hah
[07:57] <Hobbsee> dont remember.  someone elses
[07:57] <Hobbsee> but you're free to take it over
[07:57] <TheMuso> Hey Hobbsee, imbrandon.
[07:57] <imbrandon> heya TheMuso
[07:57] <Hobbsee> hi TheMuso
[07:57] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: i probably will later tonight i would just like to atleaste ping whomever so we dont dupe work
[07:57] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: of course.  although i'm just stealing anyone's by now
[07:58] <imbrandon> hrm go i put my homegrown cms back on imbrandon.com or wordpress or soemthing else *thinks*
[08:00] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: dig imbrandon.com , see if your dns has updated yet, or if its still some that hasent
[08:00] <imbrandon> dig should say ns#.dreamhost.com
[08:00] <imbrandon> if its updated
[08:01] <Hobbsee> dont think so
[08:01] <Hobbsee> *pokes*
[08:01] <Hobbsee> ah :)
[08:02] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: is kxdocker supposed to work ootb now?
[08:02] <imbrandon> yea it will probably take another 24-48 hrs now
[08:02] <imbrandon> for everyones to update
[08:03] <imbrandon> hrm i havent tried kxdocker on edgy yet
[08:03] <imbrandon> on dapper you have to "mess" with the config to make it useable
[08:03] <imbrandon> but it "works"
[08:03] <imbrandon> why?
[08:03] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: got a user asking about it, for dapper
[08:04] <Hobbsee> he's had fun fighting it :P
[08:04] <imbrandon> ohhh btw i tried k3b on 2 diffrent computers with fresh edgy installs and all its missing is it needs kdesu in the .desktop
[08:04] <imbrandon> if you kdesu it it works fine, i dunno what all this talk about kernel stuff is
[08:06] <imbrandon> infact i just burned 2 ppc iso's one of 6.06.1 and both worked fine ( one kubuntu one plain ubuntu )
[08:06] <Hobbsee> why are you having to run cd burning software as root anywya?
[08:06] <imbrandon> becouse it "writes" to the /dev/cdrom afaik
[08:06] <imbrandon> i thought you always had to
[08:06] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: did you change the --update-alternatives back?
[08:07] <imbrandon> YES , add $editor to your ~/.bashrc please
[08:07] <imbrandon> hehe
[08:07] <Hobbsee> heh
[08:08] <crimsun> Hobbsee: direct/raw block device access requires root privileges.
[08:08] <imbrandon> yea what crimsun said ;)
[08:08] <crimsun> because we don't suid-root cdrecord, you have to su{,do}
[08:09] <Hobbsee> right...
[08:11] <Hobbsee> funny, the lag to a box in sydney is much less than a lag to the US.
[08:11] <TheMuso> And I don't suid either.
[08:11] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: What were you expecting?
[08:12] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: and thats not what you were expecting ?
[08:12] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: actually, lag to the US has gotten worse recently.
[08:12] <crimsun> TheMuso: you can -scanbus without errors?
[08:12] <TheMuso> Oh scanbus, no.
[08:13] <imbrandon> scanbus ?
[08:14] <Hobbsee> yay, i found a newer copy of my .bashrc :)
[08:14] <TheMuso> imbrandon: no
[08:14] <imbrandon> lol Hobbsee set a crontab to tar.gz your /home once a week and rsync it somewhere offsite
[08:14] <imbrandon> ;)
[08:15] <crimsun> if you're in the cdrom group, you can actually write cds/dvds without being root (by virtue of your /dev/sgX device being owned by root:cdrom)
[08:15] <crimsun> you just won't have permission to change your scheduling priority
[08:15] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yes.  offsite is the problem.
[08:16] <crimsun> if you write to an atapi device, this is moot
[08:16] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: i gave ya 2 gigs on buntudot.org and if you dont put it in ~/public you cant get to it from the web
[08:16] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: point.
[08:17] <imbrandon> hopefully your /home tar.gz isnt over 2 gigs , just stick it in your ~/ on buntudot ;)
[08:17] <Hobbsee> yeah, i'ts not
[08:17] <imbrandon> see , a crontab once a week for that would work ;0
[08:17] <imbrandon> and be secure becosue its not in the ~/public folder , if your paranoid encrypt it ( with something OTHER than your gnupg key lol )
[08:18] <Hobbsee> hah.  i wouldnt be stupid enough to stick it in /public.
[08:18] <imbrandon> IE no one can get it but you if its not in ~/public
[08:18] <imbrandon> heh
[08:19] <imbrandon> even so like i said if your realy paranoid encrypt it though, but IMHO its not that big of a deal as ling as its not publicly accessable
[08:19] <imbrandon> but thats just my 0.2c
[08:20] <Hobbsee> what happened to imake?
[08:20] <Hobbsee> true
[08:20] <imbrandon> imake ?
[08:21] <Hobbsee> it was a package in breezy/dapper
[08:22] <Hobbsee> it got removed.
[08:22] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[08:23] <imbrandon> probably a reason, anyhow , afk a few , i'm going to load ubuntu on my laptop , tis OSX only atm
[08:24] <imbrandon> guess i could get on voyager while i do this hehe
[08:24] <TheMuso> voyager?
[08:24] <crimsun> yes, it was removed because we resynced with Debian's X.Org packaging for Edgy
[08:24] <TheMuso> You mean startrek voyager?
[08:24] <crimsun> the xutils-dev binary package contains an imake executable, so the imake source+binary packages "went away"
[08:25] <imbrandon> TheMuso: all my computers are named after ST ships ( my main build machine is voyager , main file server enterprise , amd64 intrepid , etc etc etc )
[08:25] <crimsun> you were probably idling in -x when we discussed this, Hobbsee
[08:25] <TheMuso> imbrandon: aah
[08:26] <crimsun> (then again, maybe not; this was several weeks ago at least)
[08:27] <Hobbsee> crimsun: right...okay
[08:28] <Hobbsee> crimsun: so depend on xutils-dev instead of imake?
[08:30] <Hobbsee> bugger.  i'll have to reupload that then.
[08:30] <crimsun> correct
[08:33] <Hobbsee> ah great.  tarball out of date too.
[08:36] <Hobbsee> guess i should fix that :P
[08:43] <Hobbsee> fixed.
[08:44] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Get your act together. :p
[08:44] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: heh.  i'll try to.
[09:13] <AnAnt> is there a way to use pbuilder environment for compiling arbitrarily ?
[09:13] <AnAnt> ie. unpack a pbuilder environment to try compiling ?
[09:15] <crimsun> meaning "compiling random undebianised source?"
[09:15] <crimsun> yes, you can accomplish such with pbuilder hooks
[09:15] <AnAnt> crimsun: what's that ?
[09:15] <crimsun> I wouldn't necessarily recommend such a use case, but...
[09:15] <AnAnt> crimsun: what's pbuilder hooks ?
[09:16] <crimsun> pbuilder(8) has some works about shell/perl/etc. scripts you can use to manipulate [stuff into]  pbuilder.
[09:16] <crimsun> s/work/word/
[09:19] <AnAnt> crimsun: so I can get an interactive shell in pbuilder using these hooks ?
[09:20] <crimsun> you can get an interactive shell just by using the login target
[09:20] <crimsun> the hooks are for other uses (think copying stuff)
[09:20] <AnAnt> cool ! that's what I want
[09:21] <AnAnt> ok, so how does one get a dependancy in pbuilder environment ?
[09:21] <AnAnt> apt-get also ?
[09:23] <crimsun> apt-get install, yes.
[09:23] <Toadstool> 'morning everybody
[09:24] <AnAnt> k, thanks
[09:24] <Gloubiboulga> morning Toadstool
[09:24] <crimsun> hi
[09:24] <crimsun> Toadstool has some pbuilder hooks iirc
[09:24] <AnAnt> crimsun: that would get it from the cache if it is available, right ?
[09:24] <crimsun> AnAnt: yes
[09:24] <AnAnt> crimsun: thanks a lot for the help
[09:25] <Toadstool> hey Gloubiboulga, crimsun
[09:25] <crimsun> I haven't really done anything except for spit pbuilder(8) at you ;)
[09:57] <imbrandon> hrm is *.ubuntu.com down for anyone else? specificly the wiki
[09:57] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: yes, and the downtime is probably unplanned
[09:57] <imbrandon> ok np, just wanted to make sure it wasnt my flacky isp
[09:57] <imbrandon> not a big deal
[09:57] <imbrandon> ;)
[09:58] <crimsun> you know, "back in the old days" (I think in the hoary dev cycle), *.ubuntu.com went down every Sunday morning
[09:58] <crimsun> it got to the point when we just said, oh it must be Sunday cos Apache's down
[09:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> LP goes off tuesday nights
[09:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> heh
[09:58] <ajmitch> ah, back in the day...
[09:59] <imbrandon> hahaha
[09:59] <ajmitch> one guy writing about "What Canonical doesn't want you to know"
[09:59] <ajmitch> entertaining stuff
[09:59] <imbrandon> yea i read that earlier
[09:59] <imbrandon> kinda funny
[09:59] <imbrandon> he just seems mad becouse we have a "community"
[10:00] <imbrandon> lol me too i guess ;)
[10:00] <imbrandon> BUT he does back my point up that the debian site is cr*p /me looks at crimsun
[10:00] <Burgundavia> being in a cult is supposed to be hard, with lots of pointless work
[10:00] <imbrandon> hehe
[10:00] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: sounds about right
[10:01] <ajmitch> you seen how many bugs we have to fix on malone?
[10:01] <imbrandon> Burgundavia: and thats chnges his comment how?
[10:01] <Burgundavia> right
[10:01] <ajmitch> all for this elusive 'karma;
[10:01] <imbrandon> hehe
[10:01] <imbrandon> ajmitch: hahaha just file 3 or 4 specs if you wanna karma whore
[10:01] <imbrandon> lol
[10:01] <Burgundavia> all to make us more integrated into the community, whereupon we get more pointless work
[10:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol ajmitch
[10:01] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: the glorious leader spoke directly with me today
[10:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> :o
[10:02] <imbrandon> heh
[10:02] <Burgundavia> he told me about his plans
[10:02] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: great, where'd you see him?
[10:02] <Burgundavia> hm pm
[10:02] <ajmitch> ah
[10:02] <Burgundavia> he pm'ed me
[10:02] <ajmitch> I thought you meant in person
[10:02] <ajmitch> hard to keep track of where he is at any time
[10:02] <imbrandon> sabdfl ?
[10:02] <ajmitch> yeah
[10:02] <imbrandon> hehe
[10:03] <imbrandon> i talked to him about umm 2 days ago PM , well infact that was the only time i ever talked to him directly
[10:03] <imbrandon> lol
[10:03] <ajmitch> I wonder what this guy must think of the debian cult - it's nearly all volunteer work
[10:03] <imbrandon> lol
[10:04] <imbrandon> that and i was trying to figure out what "canonical dosent want you to know ..." every thing he said is very public , even posted on ubuntu.com mostly
[10:04] <ajmitch> it's meant to lend an air of mystery
[10:04] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: the easiest way to hide something is in plain sight
[10:04] <ajmitch> like revealing some dark, sordid secret
[10:05] <imbrandon> heh
[10:05] <imbrandon> just looks like FUD to cash in on some "hits" form a sensational headline to me
[10:06] <imbrandon> he said he would take a "technical" look at it but i see nothing technical about the artical tbh
[10:06] <Burgundavia> it was a giant rant
[10:06] <ajmitch> yep
[10:06] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: tell me if you think I imply that there is any connection between jdub leaving and jono coming, in 9
[10:06] <ajmitch> almost a foaming-at-the-mouth type of rant
[10:07] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: yes
[10:07] <imbrandon> *ubuntu* does get alot of press though, but honestly i think rightly so
[10:07] <imbrandon> Burgundavia: yea
[10:07] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: only because you mention it - knowing some of what goes on lends a different perspective for me reading it
[10:07] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: you agreeing to my question to ajmitch?
[10:07] <Burgundavia> right
[10:08] <imbrandon> [03:06]  <Burgundavia> ajmitch: tell me if you think I imply that there is any connection between jdub leaving and jono coming, in 9 <-- yea
[10:08] <Burgundavia> jdub emailed me and told me off for it
[10:08] <ajmitch> curious
[10:08] <imbrandon> why? i dont see the problem with it
[10:08] <ajmitch> community manager was never jdub's real job
[10:08] <ajmitch> jono is not really replacing jdub
[10:08] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:09] <imbrandon> even if it was / or  he is , dident jdub leave on his own choice ?
[10:09] <ajmitch> certainly
[10:09] <imbrandon> i dont see the issue then tbh
[10:09] <Burgundavia> I don't see a big issue, but I will add a not to next weeks issue
[10:09] <imbrandon> its not like anyone is downing jdubs work, i think he did and does great
[10:09] <ajmitch> pass the text by jdub first
[10:10] <Burgundavia> he can edit it just like anyone else
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I refuse to cater to one person
[10:10] <Burgundavia> jdub pisses me off sometimes
[10:11] <Burgundavia> what really pisses me off is that I had several people review it, including crimsun, and nobody said anything
[10:12] <imbrandon> wonderfull , 6.06.1 just failed to install yaboot , now i got to figure out how to get a traceback off a uninstalled system to file a usefull bug
[10:12] <imbrandon> Burgundavia: like i said tbh i dont see a probelm with it even if it did infer that but maybe i just dont see a problem becouse i'm not directly involved , dunno , thats just me
[10:12] <Burgundavia> right
[10:14] <imbrandon> just becouse he is not a canonical employee dosent mean he'll stop contributing to ubuntu either from what i've seen he still is and plans to , but again i havent ask him personaly , just what ive noticed myself
[10:15] <imbrandon> anyhow thats their cup of tea, best if i stay clear as i realy dont know the half of it, but to a peon like me its no big deal
[10:15] <imbrandon> brb more mt dew
[10:19] <imbrandon> ugh this sucks, ok i have the lappy with no internet atm becouse its on a live cd and no wireless drivers installed yet, ubiguity crashes 2 time in the same place with the same traceback so its definate bug , but i have no way to get the file off other then my ipod
[10:20] <imbrandon> now the funny part, my ipod is formatted hfs and the darn comp wont read it
[10:20] <imbrandon> lol
[10:21] <imbrandon> i guess i could reformat my ipod to fat32 but then i would have to reput all that music on it , 4gigs of songs over usb2 is slow
[10:21] <TheMuso> heh
[10:21] <TheMuso> WHy not use the alternate cd?
[10:22] <imbrandon> anyone else have a better idea before i format the ipod just to file this bug
[10:22] <imbrandon> TheMuso: i will now BUT that dont make the bug do away ;)
[10:22] <TheMuso> I know.
[10:22] <TheMuso> But its an idea. :p
[10:22] <imbrandon> for that matter i have an old dapper cd that work and i can just dist upgrade ;)
[10:23] <imbrandon> i'd like to get the installer/syslog and syslog and partman and traceback off
[10:23] <imbrandon> to make a good bug report heh
[10:23] <TheMuso> Fair enough.
[10:23] <TheMuso> What wireless drivers does it need?
[10:23] <TheMuso> And did you try the hfsplus filesystem?
[10:24] <imbrandon> orinoco drivers ( airport in an ibook )
[10:24] <TheMuso> Right.
[10:24] <TheMuso> Try hfsplus first
[10:24] <imbrandon> hfsplus wont write to a journaled file system
[10:24] <TheMuso> modinfo hfsplus
[10:25] <TheMuso> Oh ok.
[10:25] <TheMuso> Does the Ipod use hfsplus?
[10:25] <imbrandon> i'd have to turn the journaling off and tbh i dunno how to do that on an ipod
[10:25] <TheMuso> Right.
[10:25] <imbrandon> yea it can eather use hfs+ or fat32 , i choose hfs when i formated it
[10:26] <TheMuso> Damn.
[10:26] <TheMuso> DO you still have any unpartitioned space on the machine?
[10:26] <TheMuso> the hard disk rather
[10:26] <imbrandon> hrm i still have the osx partition and the journalings turned off on it
[10:27] <imbrandon> good call
[10:28] <imbrandon> toy's ? hehe all i have is an ipod
[10:28] <ajmitch> it's enough of a toy
[10:28] <imbrandon> ipod was a fathers day gift ;)
[10:29] <ajmitch> ah :)
[10:30] <ajmitch> I see Hobbsee is still merging
[10:30] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: i was, yeah
[11:18] <phanatic> morning
[11:20] <Gloubiboulga> morning phanatic
[11:20] <phanatic> hi Gloubiboulga
[11:21] <Fujitsu> Good evening, phanatic, Gloubiboulga.
[11:21] <phanatic> evening Fujitsu
[11:22] <Gloubiboulga> hello Fujitsu
[11:34] <ajmitch> nexu: ping
[11:39] <nexu> ajmitch: pong
[11:41] <ajmitch> nexu: are you associated with the files in http://files.beep-media-player.org/packages/ubuntu/dists/dapper/main/binary-i386/ ?
[11:43] <nexu> yes
[11:43] <siretart> StevenK: pong
[11:43] <ajmitch> nexu: I just spent half an hour trying to figure out a bug with a user that was due to broken backports from there
[11:44] <nexu> ajmitch: what is exactly the problem ?
[11:44] <nexu> ajmitch: is it related to python2.4-dbus ?
[11:44] <ajmitch> no, libdbus-1-cil
[11:44] <ajmitch> backporting dbus is crackful in itself
[11:45] <nexu> hmm i used the exact script from edgy
[11:45] <nexu> from a while back
[11:45] <siretart> nexu: did you check what effects a different environment has?
[11:46] <nexu> so what was wrong about it ?
[11:46] <nexu> i'm interested in it
[11:46] <siretart> no idea. I don't touch dbus for exactly these reasons..
[11:46] <ajmitch> the assembly simply couldn't be loaded at all
[11:46] <ajmitch> it wasn't in the GAC
[11:46] <nexu> i lost you there; what is GAC?
[11:47] <ajmitch> that's why you need to understand a package to touch it
[11:47] <StevenK> siretart: Hey. I wanted to fix Linda on REVU.
[11:47] <siretart> nexu: the GAC is the global assembly cache, I assume
[11:48] <StevenK> siretart: How do I go about this?
[11:48] <nexu> uurh ok
[11:48] <siretart> StevenK: oh, right. do you have a fixed linda for breezy?
[11:48] <StevenK> Breezy!?
[11:48] <siretart> tiber still runs breezy, we didn't upgrade yet
[11:49] <nexu> so what was the symptoms and issues it raied with the borqed backport i made ?
[11:49] <nexu> raised*
[11:49] <StevenK> siretart: I can make one.
[11:49] <ajmitch> nexu: as I said - the assembly cannot be found in the GAC
[11:49] <ajmitch> so it can't be loaded
[11:49] <siretart> my laptop broke yesterday while upgrading to edgy
[11:49] <ajmitch> which breaks pretty much any mono desktop apps (banshee, muine, tomboy, f-spot, etc)
[11:49] <siretart> I'm currently reinstalling. don't have time to investigate the breakage :/
[11:49] <StevenK> That reminds me, I need to upgrade a server to Dapper.
[11:50] <StevenK> My work got their first Ubuntu server installed last week.
[11:50] <siretart> StevenK: I intended to upgrade it this weekend :(
[11:50] <StevenK> siretart: Heh. This weekend is nearly gone.
[11:50] <nexu> ajmitch: those dbus lib has been on there for perhaps almost a month now, i havent heard about this before or i would have either taken them down or something
[11:50] <siretart> StevenK: and my laptop is still broken ;)
[11:51] <siretart> StevenK: I still have 12h weekend
[11:51] <Hobbsee> siretart: but broken is fun.
[11:51] <StevenK> siretart: I will make/hack a package together for Breezy, and also for Dapper.
[11:52] <nexu> siretart: was that on your machine ?
[11:52] <zanaga> is it too late to get a package from debian pushed to edgy universe? (currently there is no such package in unverse)
[11:53] <Hobbsee> zanaga: no, you've got until sept 7 to do that
[11:53] <siretart> Hobbsee: not if you have a thesis to write ;)
[11:53] <zanaga> ok.. that's good to know. What is the right way to get a package pulled?
[11:53] <Hobbsee> siretart: heh.
[11:54] <Hobbsee> zanaga: file a bug about it, get a MOTU to ack it, if you arent one yourself, and subscribe ubuntu-archive
[11:55] <zanaga> Hobbsee, ok. I'll do that once i get the next version upload out of the way.
[11:55] <zanaga> Hobbsee, thanks
[11:55] <Hobbsee> zanaga: not a problem
[11:58] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[12:00] <Hobbsee> hi ubuntu_demon
[12:13] <StevenK> siretart: tiber is i386?
[12:14] <StevenK> Oh, what does it matter, Linda is arch: all
[12:14] <siretart> StevenK: yes
[12:34] <StevenK> siretart: Piong
[12:34] <StevenK> Ping, even
[12:35] <Hobbsee> the new form of greeting.  piong.
[12:35] <siretart> StevenK: yes?
[12:35] <StevenK> Grah
[12:36] <StevenK> siretart: How do you want this package?
[12:36] <siretart> can I trust a debian developer? ;)
[12:37] <Hobbsee> siretart: such as StevenK?  no.
[12:37] <StevenK> The correct answer is 'No'.
[12:37] <Hobbsee> :)
[12:37] <siretart> ok. then as source. :)
[12:38] <StevenK> siretart: http://wedontsleep.org/~steven/linda/breezy/
[01:18] <welshbyte> i probably need it
[01:47] <Toadstool> siretart: "/usr/bin/revu-build: line 106: libaudacious3.0.0_1.1.1-0ubuntu1_i386.lintian: Permission denied" on tiber, with revu-report :)
[01:51] <siretart> Toadstool: interesting..
[01:53] <siretart> Toadstool: which source package is that?
[01:53] <Toadstool> siretart: audacious
[01:57] <siretart> Toadstool: relogin, should work then
[01:58] <Toadstool> ok, thanks
[02:12] <Toadstool> siretart: it worked, thanks a lot :)
[03:01] <welshbyte> '-*-bitstream vera sans-bold-r-*-*-*-240-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1' <-- what exactly are those things?
[03:01] <Hobbsee> fonts?
[03:02] <tseng> forge, font name, weight, size, charset....
[03:02] <tseng> xfontsel breaks it down if you really cared
[03:03] <welshbyte> i really care, thanks :)
[03:03] <tseng> these days we rarely bother with such detail
[03:03] <tseng> fontconfig
[03:04] <gnomefreak> is there a deadline on merges?
[03:05] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: sept 7, universe freeze?
[03:05] <Hobbsee> well, after that you need exceptions
[03:06] <Gloubiboulga> Hobbsee, the deadline has changed?
[03:06] <Gloubiboulga> I thought it was sept 28
[03:06] <gnomefreak> ok cool so the 2 i want to do can wait til 08/27
[03:06] <Hobbsee> Gloubiboulga: right, so i've rmemebered wrong?
[03:06] <gnomefreak> Gloubiboulga: seethats bad
[03:07] <Gloubiboulga> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule
[03:07] <Hobbsee> oh, wiki's back
[03:08] <Hobbsee> Gloubiboulga: ahhh...you're right.
[03:08] <Hobbsee> how do we have a feature freeze for all of ubuntu, then have a main freeze after that?
[03:08] <gnomefreak> oh nvm i thought you said aug. 28th
[03:08] <Hobbsee> s/main/universe/
[03:15] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:16] <phanatic> hey bdde
[03:16] <phanatic> bddebian: :)
[03:16] <bddebian> Hi phanatic
[03:16] <phanatic> hit return before tab :)
[03:17] <bddebian> :-)
[03:23] <TheMuso> Night folks
[03:23] <Hobbsee> night TheMuso
[03:24] <gnomefreak> night TheMuso
[03:45] <Seveas> Hobbsee, please bump the gtk-dev build-depends for monkey-bubble to 2.10 -- configure fails with older gtk
[03:45] <Seveas> which screws over backporting 
[03:45] <Hobbsee> Seveas: gotcha
[03:46] <Hobbsee> Seveas: i'm not terribly familiar with them :(
[03:50] <Hobbsee> Seveas: build depends should read:  Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), libgtk2.0-dev (>= 2.10), cdbs, librsvg2-dev, libgstreamer-gconf0.8-dev, libxml2-dev, libgnomeui-dev, libglade2-dev, gconf2, libgstreamer0.10-dev, libxml-parser-perl, docbook-to-man, scrollkeeper, gnome-doc-utils
[03:50] <Hobbsee> ?
[03:50] <Seveas> !info libgtk2.0-dev edgy
[03:50] <ubotu> Package libgtk20-dev does not exist in edgy
[03:50] <Seveas> heh, bug in ubotu 
[03:50] <Hobbsee> now *that's* interesting :P
[03:51] <Hobbsee> hah
[03:51] <Seveas> yeah
[03:51] <Hobbsee> you should fix that
[03:51] <Seveas> already on it
[03:51] <Hobbsee> Seveas: what else do i need to bump?
[03:51] <Hobbsee> this package hasnt been touched since breezy.
[03:52] <Seveas> the rest should be ok
[03:52] <neutrinomass> When a package installs an icon in /usr/share/foo/, but it should also go in /usr/share/pixmaps, is duplicating the icon in both locations the right way to do it ?
[03:52] <redguy> a softlink seems a better approach
[03:53] <Hobbsee> er, i'm thinking taht libgstreamer-gconf0.8-dev may be wrong too.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> i wonder if that builds without it.
[03:53] <neutrinomass> Yes, that's what I think too but I vaguely remember hearing a long time ago that symlinks should for some reason be avoided...
[03:54] <Seveas> Hobbsee, the libgtk2.0-dev (>= 2.10) should be ok, that exists in edgy -- did you bump gstreamer to 0.10?
[03:54] <Hobbsee> Seveas: yes
[03:55] <Seveas> Hobbsee, 0.8 and 0.10 aren't compatible, you shouldn't just bump
[03:55] <Hobbsee> iirc upstream changed it?
[03:56] <dsas> Is there any need for an MTA do have reccomends on every MUA in the archive?
[03:56] <dsas> s/do/to
[03:56] <dsas> see bug 56238
[03:56] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56238 in aptitude "Install Recommended packages automaticaly should be disabled by default" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/56238
[03:56] <Seveas> Hobbsee, right, monkey-bubble does gst-0.10 now
[03:57] <Hobbsee> Seveas: that's what i thought i read, yes.
[03:57] <Seveas> I think you should just drop the gstreamer0.8-gconf dep
[03:57] <Goshawk> i've problem with pbuilder, can someone help me?
[03:57] <Seveas> I'll try a testbuild without it
[03:57] <Hobbsee> yeah, i'm just trying that now
[03:58] <Hobbsee> Seveas: i'm not that much of an idiot to bump gstreamer 0.8 to 0.12 at random.
[03:58] <Seveas> Hobbsee, heh 
[03:59] <Seveas> You had me worried though ;)
[03:59] <Hobbsee> s/0.12/0.10/
[03:59] <Hobbsee> i'm bumping to versions that dont exist yet!  woo!
[03:59] <Seveas> sigh -- my pbuilder is broken
[04:00] <Hobbsee> Seveas: considering i've done the last couple of uploads of amarok, i should hope i'd get the build-deps right.  although, we dont ship amarok-gstreamer anymore, i guess
[04:00] <Hobbsee> Seveas: how'd you break it?
[04:00] <Toadstool> dsas: postfix doesn't recommend *every* MUA
[04:00] <Seveas> Hobbsee, -ENOCLUE, I'm just wiping it now
[04:00] <dsas> Toadstool: Not every, but a fair few - including emacs.
[04:00] <Hobbsee> Seveas: ah okay
[04:00] <Toadstool> dsas: uh? it just recommends mail-reader
[04:01] <dsas> Toadstool: Ah, I wondered what that was.
[04:01] <dsas> Toadstool: But all apt based tools will automatically install all reccomended packages in edgy afaik, will that mean it tries to install all of those?
[04:02] <Seveas> no
[04:02] <Seveas> just one
[04:02] <Toadstool> dsas: which means that if you have a package providing mail-reader installed, apt/aptitude/whatever will not try to install another mail-reader
[04:03] <dsas> ok, sorry for the confusion. Out of interest if you don't have a package providing mail-reader how does it choose which one to install?
[04:03] <Hobbsee> i should do that though
[04:10] <Toadstool> dsas: no idea :)
[04:10] <dsas> Toadstool: Ok, I'll reject the bug anyway
[04:20] <Sp4rKy> hey
[04:21] <Sp4rKy> please MOTUs
[04:21] <Sp4rKy> i need some help
[04:21] <Sp4rKy> i'm packaging audacious
[04:21] <Sp4rKy> and the library libaudacious is buggued
[04:22] <Sp4rKy> it soname is 3.0.0 whereas it should be 3
[04:22] <Sp4rKy> and upstream doesn't want modify the libaudacious
[04:22] <Sp4rKy> so what could i do ?
[04:29] <bmonty> Sp4rKy: do you know what rdepends on libaudacious?
[04:30] <Sp4rKy> rdepends doesn't  seems to be the issue
[04:31] <bmonty> bmonty: Sp4rKy, I'm not sure of the answer to your question, but I would want to know if changing the soname of the lib would effect any other packages
[04:32] <Sp4rKy> no
[04:32] <Sp4rKy> libaudacious is only used by audacious
[04:34] <Sp4rKy> but if i call my package libaudacious3 , lintian says soname must be libaudacious3.0.0
[04:45] <tseng> proper so naming has little to do with who uses it
[04:45] <tseng> if your library had zero users, you should get your soname right
[04:48] <Sp4rKy> how ?
[05:15] <Lutin> hi
[05:17] <Lutin> is there a way to massively sign packages without having to give the password each time ?
[05:17] <bmonty> Lutin: take the password off your key (not recommended)
[05:18] <Lutin> bmonty, no other way, such as a gpg-agent, smthg like that ?
[05:18] <bmonty> Lutin: not that I know of
[05:19] <Lutin> **argh**
[06:05] <Lutin> bmonty, how could I take the password off my gpg key ?
[06:27] <visik7> how can I get dpkg-buildpackage to run make with -j3 ?
[06:33] <bddebian> visik7: You need to modify the make line in debian/rules
[07:26] <visik7> bddebian: isn't there a global var ?
[07:51] <bddebian> visik7: Yes, but it would still need put in debian/rules
[07:51] <visik7> I dunno why usually if I run fakeroot debian/rules -j3 binary it works why I can't get the same with dpkg-buildpackage?
[08:24] <bddebian> visik7: Are you just trying to do this for yourself or are you trying to fix some package?
[08:24] <visik7> bddebian: no I'm backporting a program but I'm on a dual processor and I would like to get advantge from this
[08:25] <bddebian> visik7: You should be able to use something like DEB_BUILD_OPTS or some other to do it
[08:25] <visik7> thanks
[08:26] <visik7> is it documented somewhere?
[08:29] <AstralJava> Hey all, a starting MOTU-wannabe here asking; what is the best way to run Edgy in a virtual machine on a Dapper laptop?
[08:30] <bmonty> AstralJava: you can use vmware
[08:30] <bmonty> it is in the multiverse repo
[08:31] <AstralJava> bmonty: the player one?
[08:31] <bmonty> AstralJava: yup
[08:31] <visik7> parallels on vt hardware is faster than vmware
[08:31] <AstralJava> bmonty: Okay then, thanks!
[08:32] <AstralJava> visik7: Hmmm... vt hardware, whazzat?
[08:32] <bmonty> AstralJava: I use www.easyvmx.com to create the machine configs for the player
[08:33] <visik7> processors that support VT like Intel CoreDuo pentium D 9xx and Merom/Conroe
[08:34] <AstralJava> visik7: Ahh... okay this is a Pentium M proc.
[08:34] <visik7> so no VT
[08:35] <AstralJava> visik7: Figured. :) Thanks anyway.
[08:36] <AstralJava> That easyvmx site seems to have issues...
[08:37] <visik7> btw I prefere to debootstrap edgy on a directory and chroot in it
[08:37] <visik7> faster and harmless
[08:38] <tomveens> hi
[08:38] <AstralJava> visik7: Right, got a pointer for instructions on that one?
[08:38] <visik7> AstralJava: man debootstrap have an example on how to do it
[08:38] <tomveens> wher can I go if I have a question on the egroupware package?
[08:38] <AstralJava> visik7: Silly me, of course. :) Thanks!
[08:39] <visik7> at the bottom of the manpage
[08:39] <visik7> there is an example
[08:39] <visik7> don't follow it step by step 'couse is old and for debian just use it to figure out the steps
[08:40] <AstralJava> visik7: Sure thing, I'm on my way. Thanks for the help you guys! :)
[08:40] <visik7> things like modifying your fstab and your inittab aren't so smart
[09:03] <tomveens> when I install the egroupware package than it uninstalls the apache php5 modules
[09:17] <AstralJava> visik7: I see that modifying fstab everywhere that mentions deboostrapping edgy, why is it not smart?
[09:17] <visik7> as you want I don't like to do it
[09:21] <AstralJava> visik7: Okay. :) But lemme understand why modifying fstab isn't smart, granted I don't yet understand how a POSIX system works, but I suspect that adding /proc -section is important, no?
[09:21] <AstralJava> visik7: I kinda get that inittab part though.
[09:22] <visik7> AstralJava: is important yes but you are editing fstab of the host machine for settings that impact on a guest machine
[09:22] <visik7> if we can call this chroot a machine
[09:22] <visik7> btw
[09:22] <visik7> I prefere  script that mount proc for the chrooted directory and then chroot in it
[09:23] <AstralJava> visik7: Ahh... now I see. Thanks for clearing that for me.
[09:46] <visik7> AstralJava: have you debootsrapped edgy ?
[09:46] <AstralJava> visik7: Yuppers. :) Now doing the same for dapper, so I can triage some bugs since my main conf is dist-upgraded from hoary.
[09:47] <visik7> :)
[09:48] <visik7> but you had /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/edgy ?
[09:48] <AstralJava> I decided to make scripts for mounting as well, just haven't figured out how to automagically umount when exiting the chroot.
[09:48] <AstralJava> visik7: No, I downloaded the new debootstrap from edgy repository.
[09:48] <visik7> oh :) a link to dapper was enough
[09:50] <AstralJava> visik7: Err.... sorry can't follow?
[09:50] <visik7> nevermind
[09:50] <AstralJava> :)
[09:51] <visik7> timetogo
[09:51] <visik7> bye
[09:51] <AstralJava> Bye, and thanks again!
[09:52] <welshbyte> where can i find a good tutorial for writing man pages?
[09:54] <bmonty> welshbyte: use google, there are tutorials out there
[09:54] <crimsun> e.g., http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=8925/ur0312i/
[09:54] <welshbyte> bmonty: yeah i did and it found lots, just wondered if i could get a recommend from more experienced people :)
[09:55] <welshbyte> crimsun: thanks
[09:55] <bmonty> welshbyte: I think the last time I had to make a man page, I just copied one from some other package and modified it
[09:55] <welshbyte> bmonty: cheat ;)
[09:56] <bmonty> welshbyte: I prefer to think of it as efficient :)
[09:57] <welshbyte> hehe