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| pygi | hey ho neuralis | 12:17 |
|---|---|---|
| neuralis | hey there | 12:19 |
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| === pygi cries | ||
| _ion | * cry pygies | 12:45 |
| pygi | _ion, no, really, this hurts very much | 12:46 |
| _ion | What? | 12:46 |
| pygi | _ion, are you sure you wanna know? :) | 12:46 |
| pygi | _ion, it's about SoC, one of the students... | 12:48 |
| _ion | Something tragic? :-( | 12:48 |
| pygi | _ion, no, he's kinda blackmailing me | 12:49 |
| _ion | Oh. :-( | 12:49 |
| pygi | _ion, he made me talk with his wife even, I mean what... | 12:50 |
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| pygi | doko, poke | 12:59 |
| pygi | you have time for me? | 12:59 |
| pygi | I am in a middle of a crisis | 12:59 |
| === pygi wonders who else is SoC admin | ||
| shackan | what happened? | 01:03 |
| pygi | shackan, I wouldn't go in public anymore, altought you can scroll up if you really want | 01:03 |
| shackan | I see | 01:04 |
| doko | pygi: pong (going to bed in a few minutes ...) | 01:19 |
| pygi | doko, ok, enjoy then | 01:19 |
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| Kaleo | does anybody know why there is no jigdo file for the live cds ? | 01:55 |
| Kaleo | it would be awesome for testing | 01:55 |
| sladen | Kaleo: the live CDs are just-a-big-500MB-file | 01:56 |
| Kaleo | oh, inside the cd there is just this big file ? | 01:57 |
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| lastnode | imbrandon, ping? | 03:44 |
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| Burgundavia | mdz: can we get some spam filtering on the -owners mailing lists? | 07:18 |
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| lastnode_ | imbrandon, ping | 08:29 |
| imbrandon | lastnode_: wasup ? | 08:31 |
| lastnode_ | imbrandon, just to let you know im online for the day and am free for a brief chat whenever | 08:32 |
| imbrandon | k | 08:32 |
| lastnode | imbrandon, i encounter this wierd error where httplib puts a cap on data being sent via POST | 08:32 |
| lastnode | so i wrote a fallback function that calls on curl, like before | 08:32 |
| lastnode | ideally though, httplib would be the best, i reckon | 08:32 |
| imbrandon | k | 08:33 |
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| lastnode | imbrandon, new source mailed to you | 08:47 |
| imbrandon | okie cool | 08:47 |
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| lastnode | imbrandon, one super quick design related question when you have a sec :) | 09:40 |
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| lastnode | bah, i keep pinging people and timing out :\ | 10:01 |
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| gorilla | Hi All, this might be off topic but is there a guide on backportting a package from edgy to dapper myself? | 10:31 |
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| dsas | gorilla: Not that I know of, checking the packaging guide at http://help.ubuntu.com/ may give some hints, and also searching the wiki. | 10:38 |
| gorilla | dsas, thanks. | 10:38 |
| dsas | gorilla: It should be just link syncing a package, but with a modified upstream tarball. Someone in #ubuntu-motu may know more. | 10:39 |
| gorilla | motu? | 10:39 |
| dsas | the Masters of the Universe - they're responsible for the universe + multiverse repositories. | 10:40 |
| gorilla | oh :-) | 10:41 |
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| Bader | hi | 12:43 |
| Bader | I've reported a bug 3 months ago and since nothing happened | 12:44 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 3 in rosetta "Custom links for each translation team." [Wishlist,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/3 | 12:44 |
| Bader | Could someone change the status of #55291 and its importance ? | 12:44 |
| Seveas | bug 55291 | 12:44 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 55291 in libextractor-python "Wrong version of package" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55291 | 12:44 |
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| dsas | Bader: Is that bug filed with debian too? | 12:52 |
| Bader | no | 12:52 |
| Bader | it should but I don't know how to file it and thought that the bugs were backported to debian... | 12:52 |
| dsas | You have to email debian to create bugs (see http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting) I was just wondering, because this presumably is broken there too. | 12:54 |
| dsas | It's easier for us if debian has the fix yes, doesn't matter which way round it goes though. | 12:54 |
| Bader | it's broken too since it's the original debian package | 12:55 |
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| dsas | Bader: Ok, I'll submit a debian bug then. | 12:56 |
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| Bader | thanks | 12:56 |
| dsas | Bader: it seems debian have a newer release than ubuntu (see http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/libe/libextractor-python/libextractor-python_0.5/changelog) is this the one that's fixed? | 01:00 |
| Bader | dsas: yes | 01:11 |
| dsas | Bader: Ok, i'll ask for a sync then. | 01:12 |
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| msikma | Hey guys, I'm from the Ubuntu art team, and I'm wondering if this is possible to create (splash screen): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=splashmichiel.png | 01:38 |
| msikma | E.g. the text is in a slightly different place, as are the icons. | 01:38 |
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| sivang | lifeless: Rob, your email is your IRCNICK@ubuntu.com ? | 01:44 |
| sivang | lifeless: some corrospondence between me and Etienne about lp-dependencies and I want to keep you in the loop. | 01:44 |
| lifeless | sivang: no, robert at ubuntu dot com | 01:45 |
| sivang | lifeless: cool, thanks | 01:46 |
| lifeless | or robert dot collins at ubuntu dot com | 01:46 |
| lifeless | or ... many others :0 | 01:46 |
| sivang | heh | 01:46 |
| lifeless | Search for my name in google ;) | 01:46 |
| msikma | Is there any dev from here willing to lurk in #ubuntu-artwork? We're working on polishing the artwork for Edgy, but too often we're left wondering whether something is possible or not. | 01:46 |
| sivang | msikma: without being an authoritive answer or anything, just from my opinions, this screen short you pasted the URL too looks nice :-) | 01:47 |
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| msikma | Thanks :) But I really wonder whether the text can be further down that thing, otherwise I'd have to darken the splash image to ensure it's readable. | 01:48 |
| sladen | Micksa: it looks like mdz is already in there. Generally the secret is to highlight the nickname of the person you're after a response from by starting the line with name: | 01:48 |
| sladen | msikma: ^^ ...assuming you address it to the right person :) | 01:48 |
| msikma | I didn't know mdz was a dev | 01:48 |
| msikma | Haha | 01:48 |
| tseng | msikma: the text is drawn at the bottom of the image | 01:48 |
| tseng | msikma: as its a png, you might be able to make a rectangular area at the bottom, transparent | 01:49 |
| tseng | msikma: give it a try. | 01:49 |
| msikma | tseng: but the background can be different, right? In my example, it's the typical default red/brown, but users can make that different? | 01:49 |
| msikma | Ah, so it accepts 32-bit PNGs? | 01:49 |
| tseng | I would assume | 01:49 |
| tseng | anything else in gnome does. | 01:49 |
| msikma | That way, it would be fixed quite easily. | 01:49 |
| msikma | Thanks :) | 01:49 |
| sladen | msikma: you can check out his virtal stats at https://launchpad.net/people/mdz don't be put off by the eyes, I think it was a full-moon that night | 01:50 |
| msikma | Oh, there is one last thing that I wanted to ask. I've been working on a modification of the Human GTK theme. Do you think that it is possible to get the rounded edges of a window to be anti-aliased, like in this mock-up? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/PolishHumanGTKTheme/Incoming?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=michielgtk12.png | 01:50 |
| tseng | msikma: no. | 01:51 |
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| msikma | Not even with an image? | 01:51 |
| tseng | not with metacity on standard X, anyway | 01:51 |
| _ion | With Xgl + compiz, antialiased rounded window edges are already here. | 01:51 |
| msikma | I don't really know how the system internally works, but it's true you can add images to the metacity, right? So I couldn't just use a 32-bit PNG? | 01:51 |
| msikma | _ion: ah, I guess that is true. But then people would have to have them installed. | 01:52 |
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| _ion | The default X and the default Metacity do not do any compositing. | 01:52 |
| tseng | i dont think you can add an image for the corner | 01:52 |
| tseng | or someone would have already done this | 01:52 |
| msikma | That's too bad :( | 01:52 |
| msikma | Non-anti-aliased corners are so 1984 | 01:53 |
| tseng | the images are mainly the buttons on most themes | 01:53 |
| tseng | and the bar is some combination of gradients | 01:53 |
| msikma | So I guess that I'm stuck with aliased corners, then. | 01:53 |
| tseng | we've lived this long | 01:53 |
| tseng | it isnt exactly the worst problem we have | 01:54 |
| _ion | msikma: Or switch to Xgl + Compiz. :-) But that's offtopic for this channel. | 01:55 |
| msikma | Well, the thing is, though, it's a pretty annoying thing for the artists. From our perspective, Windows Vista will have anti-aliased corners, Mac OS X already does, and Ubuntu is going to be left behind a little bit. It's just a thorn in the eye since everything else is nicely anti-aliased. | 01:55 |
| sivang | lifeless: oh! I see you now have an online and computer software version of the dictionary :-) | 01:55 |
| lifeless | sivang: yes;0 | 01:55 |
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| sivang | lifeless: btw, this is yours - http://www.ri.cmu.edu/people/collins_robert.html ? | 01:56 |
| lifeless | no | 01:56 |
| sivang | lifeless: k | 01:56 |
| lifeless | theres at least two other Robert Collins's in open source | 01:56 |
| sladen | msikma: the rounded corners are done with a 'mask', a grid of noughts and ones saying which pixels to lay down and which to 'punch out'. There already a slight performance overhead from using that as it is. | 01:56 |
| lifeless | but only one in squid/ubuntu/vcs | 01:56 |
| lifeless | however the first and third hits are me | 01:57 |
| sladen | msikma: the secret is to make the corners look *good* even with that constaint, eg. to antialias against 50% (the normal background) and then to clip the result | 01:57 |
| msikma | Still, just being able to do that with 2-bit transparency would be infinitely better | 01:57 |
| tseng | meh, try it | 01:57 |
| tseng | i am not sure why you expect us to know more about theming tricks than you | 01:58 |
| === sivang - > out (food) | ||
| msikma | I don't know anything about how stuff internally works, unfortunately. | 01:58 |
| sladen | msikma: 2-bit transparency is like mixing paints. It's not actually transparency at all, what to have is a switch that says whether to fetch pixels from the left, or from the right | 01:58 |
| sladen | msikma: sorry, "what we have is a switch that" | 01:58 |
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| msikma | From the "left or the right"? | 01:59 |
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| sladen | msikma: imagine two separate pictures hanging on the wall. You have a choice for each final pixel whether you take it from the left, or the right picture | 01:59 |
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| sladen | msikma: one of those is your window, the other is the background---the 'rounded corner result' is the combination of taking one *or* the other (but not both) for each individual pixel | 02:00 |
| msikma | Ah, so you just mean one from the top or the bottom. | 02:00 |
| sladen | msikma: yes, that's why it's 1-bit. It's a switch | 02:01 |
| sladen | msikma: rather than a fader | 02:01 |
| msikma | I do get how that works, but I just think that reworking it to have more comprehensive transparency would be a lot better, from an artist's point of view. It's just very old-fashioned, from my perspective, to have 1-bit transparency. | 02:01 |
| sladen | msikma: oh, better analogy. The light-switch in your living room, can either be on, or off. It's can't be half way | 02:01 |
| sladen | msikma: (unless you have a dimmer---but that would need an upgrade of the wiring electronics, which we don't have, except for compiz) | 02:02 |
| _ion | msikma: The technology is already implemented with open source. It just needs to mature before it can be switched on by default for appropriate hardware. | 02:02 |
| msikma | _ion: and by that, you mean compiz? | 02:02 |
| sladen | msikma: it's is old fashioned. It's a standard from about 1987 :) | 02:03 |
| msikma | http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345249 <-- I did file this report a while back... | 02:03 |
| _ion | msikma: Actually xgl/aiglx is what makes it possible, compiz just makes use of it. | 02:03 |
| msikma | Aha | 02:03 |
| Ubugtu | Gnome bug 345249 in general "Window edges anti-aliasing request" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed] | 02:03 |
| msikma | Still, the thing is: we already have, for example, cursors that have 8-bit transparency, and the corners of a window certainly aren't that much larger than a cursor (unless you have an ungodly amount of windows open) so it would seem to a non-programmer like me that the overhead shouldn't be _too_ large. | 02:04 |
| msikma | Well, I guess I'll just have to work around it. | 02:05 |
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| infinity | msikma: Cursors have a defined background. Windows have to compose their background based on the other windows they're stacked on. | 02:05 |
| infinity | msikma: The latter is much more effort. | 02:06 |
| infinity | Oh, wait, I read "cursors" as "icons". | 02:06 |
| infinity | We have 8-bit transparency in cursors? | 02:06 |
| msikma | Yeah, the shadows are 8-bit transparency, I think. | 02:06 |
| sladen | infinity: yeah, normally done in software as a result though, which is why the cursors 'lags' | 02:06 |
| msikma | In any case, I believe that cursors are made by collecting 32-bit PNGs and then changing them into a different format. | 02:06 |
| sladen | msikma: correct. Cursors are also *always* at the top of the stack | 02:07 |
| sladen | msikma: the transparent corners thing is easy when it's just a background and the window. But imagine having 10 semi transparent windows overlapping in different ways----that's when the problem gets hard; and the solution for that is to switch to a different method. Unfortunately, that method isn't available everywhere yet | 02:09 |
| sladen | msikma: just like not everyone has 21" monitors; we have to produce something that looks good on both | 02:09 |
| msikma | What about enabling it on those systems of which we know it will run? | 02:10 |
| sladen | msikma: that's the idea. But we *still have to make it look good* on the systems that can't | 02:10 |
| msikma | Sure. So they will just see the aliased edges. | 02:11 |
| msikma | Which isn't too bad either. | 02:11 |
| lastnode | infinity, ping? | 02:12 |
| sladen | msikma: basically at the moment you need to have XGL (which crashes as much as somebody learning to ski) or AIGLX which requires extensions to the X servers. Currently the only cards fast enough are Intel, Nvidia binary, or ATI binary; and we don't enable the binary drivers by default | 02:12 |
| sladen | msikma: I think the edges were solved under 6.06 by having a 1 pixel black line around the edge, which instead creates maximum contrast and still looks good | 02:13 |
| msikma | Actually, I think that it looked terrible. Which is partially why I went here to ask if anything better was possible. :P | 02:14 |
| msikma | To put a black line around the edge actually seems like the opposite of what I would do. Which is to make an as clean transition between the metacity and the edges of the window as possible. | 02:15 |
| infinity | lastnode: Hey, dude. I vaguely recall that you wanted to talk to me about something or other, but I'm also thoroughly enjoying my weekend here. :) | 02:15 |
| lastnode | infinity, sure mate, laters. :) have a good one! | 02:15 |
| infinity | msikma: Given the technical limitations, I always felt that having rounded corners in the dapper them was just a mistake, period. | 02:16 |
| msikma | Me too. I would actually much rather use non-rounded ones simply to get past this limitation. But it seems that some people disagree. | 02:16 |
| lastnode | imbrandon, ping? | 02:17 |
| === lastnode goes back to python | ||
| msikma | Something about Ubuntu being all about rounding, which I don't think makes much sense. If they want to define Ubuntu, they can't just say "Ubuntu is this and that, and that's why we need *insert random thing here*". | 02:17 |
| infinity | Well, I'm also generally offended by rounded corners on windows, since the windows themselves are rectangular. But I'm just anal about cleanliness. | 02:17 |
| msikma | You should frequent the Ubuntu mailing list or IRC channel! | 02:18 |
| msikma | Er, *art mailing list | 02:18 |
| infinity | That would probably drive me insane. :P | 02:18 |
| tseng | my participation for the artwork usually involves downloading the art from SuSE | 02:18 |
| tseng | and changing it all as quickly as possible | 02:18 |
| infinity | I'll just keep programming, and be (un)pleasantly surprised when a new default theme is shoved down my throat every few months. | 02:18 |
| imbrandon | lol | 02:18 |
| lastnode | i prefer non-rounded as well, but a lot of end users love rounded for some reason | 02:19 |
| lastnode | i think from a design perspective rounded comes across as more "friendly" and "warm" | 02:19 |
| === imbrandon sticks to his purdy kwin | ||
| tseng | I understand that isnt helpful, but I quickly tire of the lengthy arguments over art | 02:19 |
| infinity | Yeah, I don't get it. On WinXP machines, the first thing I do is switch back to the Windows Classic theme. | 02:19 |
| msikma | I've been tempted to join #ubuntu-art for a long time. | 02:19 |
| msikma | Since 5.04. | 02:19 |
| === lastnode removes tongue from cheek | ||
| lastnode | infinity, ahaha, me too :) | 02:19 |
| lastnode | but that's because the blue reminds of the BSOD | 02:19 |
| lastnode | and i flash back to pre-puberty and windows 95 :s | 02:20 |
| msikma | I just didn't want to join because I felt Ubuntu Artwork was pretty okay. But then Dapper came out. | 02:20 |
| infinity | It's the massive waste of space from the huge rounded titlebars that annoys me. | 02:20 |
| msikma | I think Dapper was a **major** step down. | 02:20 |
| msikma | Art-wise. | 02:20 |
| infinity | Dedicating all that space to widgets is annoying, especially on my 800x600 craptop. | 02:20 |
| lastnode | msikma, pretty much everyone ive met has said otherwise though (end users) | 02:20 |
| sladen | msikma: right it sounds like edgy will have a great theme to improve on it | 02:20 |
| tseng | msikma: i dont know.. my suse art still looks great | 02:20 |
| === StevenK misses the discrete, little "<logo> ubuntu" on the desktop background. | ||
| lastnode | infinity, on 800x600 id prefer if there were _no_ tutlebars | 02:20 |
| msikma | Well, all they got to do is listen to me and all will be fine in the end :P | 02:21 |
| sladen | msikma: I didn't mind the 6.06 theme once the gawd-aweful bright orange was toned down | 02:21 |
| lastnode | didnt someone do a blog post of the progression of ubuntu art? | 02:21 |
| === lastnode goes to look for it | ||
| msikma | sladen: that's my main issue. | 02:21 |
| msikma | The window title is way too bright. | 02:21 |
| msikma | I sometimes seriously have trouble reading what a title says. | 02:21 |
| msikma | Then there's the non-existent-but-still-somewhat-existent window border (at the left, right and bottom). I just don't really see that as a good option. | 02:22 |
| msikma | Then there's one last thing. I really think that Tangerine looks better than Human. There are just a couple of serious design mistakes that the authors of Human have made that simply make it less usable. | 02:23 |
| msikma | Apparently, Human is the default because Ubuntu needs to look "unique" and "specific". As if the entirety of the artwork that has been made for it isn't already unique enough. Tangerine itself is unique to Ubuntu, too. I feel that if they want to use the artwork to market Ubuntu (i.e. "unique" is definitely a marketing decision), they should not harm the visual integrity of the system in order to do so, since that's just plain wrong. | 02:24 |
| msikma | Marketing can be done in other fields than the icons, of all things. | 02:25 |
| tseng | mark objects to the tango style in general | 02:25 |
| msikma | But well, that's JUST ME. | 02:25 |
| lastnode | has anyone got a sec to try out a wee python script? :) | 02:25 |
| tseng | but if someone were to make a nice consistant set of themes | 02:25 |
| msikma | If he objects to the Tango style, why is he letting a team remake Tango in raster and with sometimes just slight differences? The only icons that are _really_ different than the Tangerine equivalents are the folder icon and internet icon. | 02:26 |
| tseng | that werent hideous colors and based on human icons | 02:26 |
| sladen | msikma: Ubuntu has a pretty good trademark --- "brown" | 02:26 |
| tseng | it might be able to go somewhere | 02:26 |
| msikma | The thing is. | 02:26 |
| lastnode | in most cultures society, brown signifies, the earth, something primeval, and i think that works for ubuntu | 02:26 |
| msikma | What is the point of remaking, for example, the icon for services? Or the icon for the theme config panel? | 02:26 |
| msikma | All the Human designers are doing is remaking those icons that are already in Tangerine and making it slightly different. | 02:26 |
| msikma | And worse than the original, and not in vector. | 02:27 |
| lastnode | it's a nice change actually, in an age where everyone is going for flashy, plasticky, bright greens and blues | 02:27 |
| sladen | msikma: more to the point, why are they remaking them in raster? | 02:27 |
| tseng | are you familiar with the term 'preaching to the choir' | 02:27 |
| sladen | tseng: :) | 02:27 |
| msikma | heh | 02:27 |
| tseng | we are not artists however | 02:27 |
| tseng | so we sit here and live with it, or very quickly swap themes | 02:27 |
| msikma | I believe that Human might be a good thing. But it should not remake icons that are perfectly okay already and do not have _any_ use being slightly different to _anyone_, especially not the end user. | 02:27 |
| msikma | Human should just be an extension to Tangerine that aims to change only a few core icons such as the folder icon. | 02:28 |
| tseng | human will never mix with a tango base in its current form | 02:28 |
| tseng | so its not really good in that case either if you ask me | 02:28 |
| tseng | yeah, Industrial from SLED changes a half dozen icons | 02:29 |
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| msikma | Human is just ugly. Take the arrows. The reload arrow has a bogus size. The left/right arrows have no edges and a thick drop shadow. This completely ruins the contrast between the edges of the physical aspect of the arrow and the shadow itself. | 02:29 |
| msikma | And the guys that are making it have the full support of Mark, are getting a whole bunch of money, and don't even work fast (how long has Human been in progress now?) | 02:29 |
| msikma | It seriously makes me angry. | 02:29 |
| tseng | who's getting money? | 02:29 |
| msikma | oxygen-icons. | 02:29 |
| msikma | http://www.oxygen-icons.org/ | 02:30 |
| tseng | what mark does with his money is his own business | 02:30 |
| msikma | Indeed, but he's also making the system look less good while doing it. From an artist's perspective. | 02:30 |
| tseng | what we do with ubuntu is somewhat open for debate | 02:30 |
| tseng | w/i the schedule | 02:30 |
| msikma | But apparently, it's "marketing" he's after. "Marketing" with icons is next to useless. | 02:30 |
| msikma | I tried debating it on the mailing list but the discussion was hushed. | 02:31 |
| tseng | yeah it is | 02:31 |
| tseng | jimmac wrote on this | 02:31 |
| msikma | Apparently "the decision is made", and "the decision is not up to you". | 02:31 |
| msikma | He did? | 02:31 |
| tseng | yes | 02:31 |
| === tseng looks | ||
| tseng | you could argue its a biased source | 02:31 |
| tseng | but he's been the key gnome icon developer since forever | 02:31 |
| msikma | The bottom line is that Jimmac is a better designer than oxygen-icons. | 02:32 |
| msikma | Look at their site. I'd say it looks awful. | 02:32 |
| tseng | I agree | 02:32 |
| === Hobbsee notes that the oxygen icons will be being used in kubuntu. | ||
| tseng | but again, I already knew human sucked 2 years ago | 02:33 |
| msikma | They're just inferior designers and thus they might be able to pixel-push pretty well but they simply can't make icons as good as Jimmac can. | 02:33 |
| msikma | I still wonder if it is possible to open up a discussion about this. | 02:33 |
| tseng | yes, oxygen is pretty kde centric | 02:33 |
| tseng | afaik | 02:33 |
| tseng | msikma: it would be a disaster | 02:33 |
| msikma | I remember there was once a community poll that got hundreds of votes with Tangerine winning. | 02:33 |
| Hobbsee | tseng: indeed | 02:33 |
| tseng | tangerine is a hack | 02:34 |
| tseng | I don't see a reason to repaint everything in a bad orange shade | 02:34 |
| tseng | beyond a few icons | 02:34 |
| msikma | I agree. Just the core icons need to be remade in orange style because that's what's considered to be necessary (I also somewhat disagree but that, but whatever). | 02:35 |
| tseng | things were made distinctive colors for a reason | 02:35 |
| tseng | anyway, the only way to have a useful discussion at all is to do something better | 02:35 |
| msikma | What I don't understand is why Human is remaking all the tiny icons as well that nobody really cares about. Honestly, ask anyone if they care whether their screen resolution icon looks like Tangerine or like Human. But still the Human makers are remaking those icons because they get paid for it. | 02:36 |
| msikma | Tangerine is something better than Human. | 02:36 |
| msikma | But it's still rejected. | 02:36 |
| tseng | i am not sure its 'rejected' outright | 02:36 |
| tseng | its int he default install | 02:36 |
| tseng | and the fallback for human | 02:36 |
| msikma | Why should anyone do something better if it'll just end up being rejected? It doesn't exactly give me a comforting idea that a _better_ design is not favored over a _worse_ design. | 02:36 |
| tseng | tango/tangerine and human are slightly different in aim, if you get me | 02:36 |
| tseng | human ~= industrial | 02:37 |
| msikma | tseng: it's not the default icon set, thus it is rejected to me. | 02:37 |
| tseng | industrial rethemes a few things in tangerine | 02:37 |
| tseng | er, tango | 02:37 |
| tseng | tango is the base of other themes | 02:37 |
| tseng | not the default | 02:37 |
| msikma | Human, an inferior icon set, was chosen over Tangerine, which I consider a big failure. I weren't around when the decision was made, but it would appear to me that most artists these days simply prefer Tangerine. | 02:37 |
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| tseng | im not sure you are getting me | 02:38 |
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| msikma | Tango is the base, I get it. And Human extends that base. | 02:39 |
| msikma | That's what you're saying, right? | 02:39 |
| tseng | "extends" is taken pretty loosely there | 02:39 |
| msikma | But Human is an inferior extension. | 02:39 |
| tseng | human has no relation to tango though | 02:39 |
| msikma | And the decision to use it is backed by an extremely important guy who is _not_ a designer. That's what burns me the most. | 02:39 |
| tseng | you make a few tango-styled icons on top of tango | 02:39 |
| tseng | and be done. | 02:39 |
| tseng | msikma: welcome to the club pal | 02:40 |
| msikma | That's what Human should be, indeed. | 02:40 |
| msikma | And it's not like oxygen-icons is ever gonna tell Mark "hey man, we remade a few core icons, and it should be fine now." because they want to keep getting paid. | 02:40 |
| tseng | i have never seen anyone suggest that oxygen be the ubuntu icon theme | 02:41 |
| tseng | mark can do as he wishes with his money | 02:41 |
| msikma | I mean the company oxygen-icons, who are making Human. | 02:41 |
| tseng | (they are?) | 02:41 |
| Lure | msikma: oxygen icons are for kde4 and I doubt they are sponsored by Mark | 02:41 |
| msikma | Yeah, it's been mentioned on the list a few times and they've sent mails. | 02:41 |
| Hobbsee | Lure: we are having them in kubuntu though. | 02:42 |
| Lure | Hobbsee: not until kde4 (due to license) | 02:42 |
| Hobbsee | Lure: oh really? i thought it was all gpl'd :( | 02:42 |
| Lure | Hobbsee: no, intentionally they do not want releases before kde4 big-bang | 02:43 |
| Hobbsee | Lure: oh i see. darn | 02:43 |
| Riddell | Lure is correct. not sure what msikma is on about | 02:43 |
| Hobbsee | Lure: didnt know that, thanks | 02:43 |
| msikma | I don't mean the Oxygen Icons. | 02:43 |
| msikma | I mean the COMPANY that is called Oxygen Icons. Or perhaps they're called differently, but that appears to be their site. | 02:44 |
| msikma | Actually I'm maybe just very wrong. | 02:44 |
| msikma | I don't know anymore. | 02:44 |
| Riddell | msikma: oxygen is an icon theme. is made by volunteers for KDE 4, it's not funded by anyone | 02:44 |
| Riddell | actually it was funded by SuSE at the start | 02:45 |
| msikma | Well. | 02:45 |
| msikma | Anyway, I think that I've made my point. | 02:45 |
| msikma | :P | 02:46 |
| tseng | you haven't done much of anything but gotten me to agree with you | 02:46 |
| msikma | Well, that's one thing. | 02:46 |
| tseng | nothings changed. | 02:46 |
| msikma | That's for the future. | 02:46 |
| msikma | If only I knew how to package icons sets. I'll look into that later. | 02:47 |
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| o_cee | anyone from the vmware team around? | 03:27 |
| o_cee | just wondering if there's a new version of vmware-player-kernel-modules on its way for 2.6.17-6 | 03:28 |
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| infinity | o_cee: We're going to be adding the vmware modules to rhe linux-restricted-modules package in the next upload, so there won't be a seperate package anymore. | 03:47 |
| o_cee | infinity: sounds great. any eta on when that will be, soonish? won't bother fixing it temporarily then. | 03:48 |
| infinity | o_cee: Next few days. | 03:48 |
| o_cee | infinity: ok, thanks, will wait for that then :) | 03:48 |
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| bddebian | Howdy | 03:53 |
| Yagisan | infinity, will that conflict with other vmware installs eg vmware workstation or server ? | 03:54 |
| StevenK | Yagisan: Certainly not. | 03:55 |
| StevenK | Vmware calls their modules different names for differing installs. | 03:55 |
| Yagisan | StevenK, just wanted to make sure *before* possibly breaking my system | 03:55 |
| StevenK | Yagisan: It's more fun if it you do it *after*. | 03:56 |
| StevenK | s/it // | 03:56 |
| Yagisan | StevenK, that was my breezy -> dapper upgrade of a live webserver. I'd rather not do that again o_O | 03:57 |
| Yagisan | anyhow me >offtopic and going to bed | 03:57 |
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| Terlmann | do you people EVER FINISH a OS?*groans loudly in pain, bites on fingers..* | 06:21 |
| Terlmann | Gonzo: list | 06:22 |
| Terlmann | [PUPPETS] Gonzo: list | 06:22 |
| Terlmann | hmm | 06:22 |
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| gorilla | Terlmann, you won't be missed. | 06:30 |
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| nowlin | hey everybody. when will the ned ati drivers enter edgy? im getting conflicts whit the new xorg | 06:44 |
| nowlin | hey everybody. when will the ned ati drivers enter edgy? im getting conflicts whit the new xorg | 06:44 |
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| === pitti waves | ||
| Gloubiboulga | hi pitti | 07:02 |
| _ion | loop { 0.upto(359) {|i| self.hand_angle = i.to_f / 180.0 * Math::PI } } | 07:04 |
| zul_ | hey pitti | 07:09 |
| pitti | hi zul_ | 07:09 |
| sivang | hey pitti | 07:15 |
| simira | pitti: are you "here" now? | 07:15 |
| sivang | infinity: what's that? | 07:15 |
| sivang | oops | 07:15 |
| sivang | I meant, | 07:15 |
| sivang | _ion: what's that? | 07:16 |
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| pitti | simira: yes, in Wiesbaden | 07:16 |
| pitti | hey sivang | 07:16 |
| Nafallo | sounds like beer :-) | 07:16 |
| sivang | hey pitti , already in the distro sprint ? | 07:16 |
| _ion | sivang: It's another way of saying "/me waves". :-) | 07:16 |
| pitti | sivang: yes, arrived an hour ago | 07:16 |
| sivang | pitti: so it will be during this week until the 27th ? | 07:17 |
| pitti | sivang: yep | 07:18 |
| simira | pitti: ok, I was having siesta then. See you in another half, I guess :) | 07:18 |
| sivang | simira: you also in the distro sprint ? :) | 07:19 |
| simira | sivang: yup. For some reason. I am probably not sprinting anything but ubuntu-no issues, I believe | 07:19 |
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| sivang | simira: Cool, If I were in EU, I would most certainly hop in for a visit myself. | 07:22 |
| sivang | simira: and maybe grab mvo to help me some bits with home user backup's notification stuff | 07:23 |
| === pitti restarts his session to fix the (*#$#*($# gnome-terminal | ||
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| simira | sivang: mvo's busy solving my update-manager bugs! Do you get anywhere abroad easily now, anyway? | 07:31 |
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| sivang | simira: easily as any one else complying with the new rules for flying, however, being on another continent makes the trip expansive and troublesome of just a quick visit. | 07:33 |
| sivang | s/of/for/ | 07:33 |
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| sivang | pitti: do you know if Sebastian Heinlien will also be there? | 07:43 |
| pitti | sivang: no idea, but I suppose not; look at the wiki page | 07:44 |
| bSON | font rendering suddenly got SIGNIFICANTLY better with the last dapper update, what did you do? | 07:45 |
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| Seveas | pitti, are you at the sprint hotel? | 07:48 |
| pitti | Seveas: yes | 07:49 |
| Seveas | pitti, would you mind doing /reconnect to test whether lilo didn't mess up with the k-line proof settings -- if you can't come back on: dennis@ubuntu.com/+31625235346 | 07:50 |
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| robertj | random thought: has anyone investigated the possibility of putting pastebin in the base install? Usually I'm against this kind of thing, but it is 8k... | 08:36 |
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| zul_ | there is other things to think about other than space to go into main but no | 08:37 |
| === bluefoxicy continues to advocate attempting to get a functional system in under a gig! | ||
| robertj | bluefoxicy: I wouldn't call living with pastebin living... | 08:39 |
| robertj | err living without :) | 08:39 |
| bluefoxicy | robertj: ditch w3m, add links2, http://rafb.net/paste/ ? | 08:40 |
| bluefoxicy | (why we have w3m is beyond me; has anyone tried to use the damn thing?) | 08:40 |
| robertj | pah, we've got telnet, who needs a web browser too | 08:41 |
| bluefoxicy | ditch telnet | 08:41 |
| bluefoxicy | we've got netcat | 08:41 |
| robertj | your right | 08:43 |
| keescook | bluefoxicy: however will you negotiate telnet terminal settings? ;) | 08:44 |
| bluefoxicy | keescook: if you can use telnet for a web browser, then you can use netcat for an ad-hoc terminal. | 08:44 |
| bluefoxicy | subject to the same obvious implications. | 08:44 |
| keescook | heheh. :) | 08:44 |
| bluefoxicy | where the fucking hell is-- ah, there it is, segment 13 | 08:44 |
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| bluefoxicy | text: 002b04 rodata: 000b68 data: 000040 bss: 000138 total: 37e4 | 08:47 |
| bluefoxicy | converting to decimal.......... | 08:47 |
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| geser | hello | 09:09 |
| geser | could someone trigger a rebuild of gnome-mag? | 09:09 |
| geser | the last failed because of a transient failure at libatspi-dev | 09:10 |
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| geser | hello | 09:42 |
| geser | if a package build fails (on all archs) could it be retried again or is a new upload necessary? | 09:44 |
| sladen | geser: why is it failing? | 09:45 |
| geser | because a build-dependency wasn't installable at that moment but it is now again | 09:46 |
| geser | it's about gnome-mag | 09:46 |
| geser | see the build log http://librarian.launchpad.net/3949388/buildlog_ubuntu-edgy-i386.gnome-mag_1%3A0.13.1-0ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz | 09:47 |
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| geser | a new upload of at-spi was uploaded at the same time as gnome-mag and it overlapped somehow and gnome-mag failed to build | 09:50 |
| smurf | Anybody know whether doko was/is/will be around? | 09:51 |
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| Lure | sladen: is wireless key on dell inspirion 8100 supposed to get mapped into keycode? I have one user report that they would expect it to be mapped - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko/Keycodes | 10:05 |
| mjg59 | Lure: Given that there's nothing to receive that code at the moment, no | 10:06 |
| Lure | mjg59: if we have a fixed keycode, at least users can map it easily (xmodmap), but I agree this is not enough for out-of-box | 10:07 |
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| sladen | Lure: grep -i wifi /usr/share/doc/hotkey-setup/NOTES | 10:27 |
| sladen | Lure: it appears that I was considering aliasing it to KEY_CONNECT | 10:28 |
| Lure | sladen: I even though that all wifi keys were HW keys... | 10:29 |
| geser | sladen: any info on how to trigger a retry on the rebuild of gnome-mag? | 10:30 |
| Lure | sladen: you mention battery as 236, but edgy returns 241 - is just doc wrong or is this supposed to change? | 10:30 |
| crimsun | geser: ask infinity to give it back | 10:31 |
| crimsun | (it's really, really early in the morning for him) | 10:31 |
| geser | will do, thx | 10:32 |
| sladen | Lure: what does grep BATTERY /usr/include/linux/input.h give you? | 10:32 |
| Lure | sladen: #define KEY_BATTERY 236 | 10:32 |
| sladen | good good | 10:33 |
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| mjg59 | Lure: The value that X give will be different to the Linux value | 10:43 |
| Lure | mjg59: so where does lnx -> X keycode mapping happen? Xorg? | 10:45 |
| mjg59 | Lure: Kernel | 10:45 |
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| mjg59 | Lure: You really, really don't want to know the details | 10:45 |
| bddebian | Heya pygi | 10:45 |
| pygi | hey bddebian | 10:45 |
| Lure | mjg59: it is enough that I had too learn to much of xkb ... ;-) | 10:45 |
| sivang | hi pygi | 10:46 |
| pygi | sivang, hello you :) | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | Lure: The kernel converts Linux keycodes (which appear from /dev/event) into things that look like AT keycodes (that appear from /dev/console) | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | X reads them from the latter | 10:46 |
| mjg59 | There's a table in /usr/src/linux/drivers/char/keyboard.c | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | x86_keycodes[] | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | So for keycode 236, you look at the 236th entry and then take away 128, or something | 10:48 |
| Lure | mjg59: I see - thanks for explaination | 10:49 |
| pygi | sivang, poke, pm? | 10:50 |
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