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poningruhmm we need to start a db of hardware supported12:43
Burgworkponingru, some of that is already there12:43
LaserJockthere is one12:43
Burgworkgot any python knowledge?12:43
=== poningru yeah kinda
poningrushopping for a wifi card12:44
LaserJockit needs a frontend12:44
poningruah hehe ic12:44
LaserJockthe hardware database12:44
poningruwait isnt there already one?12:44
Burgworkit needs two things: a better front end12:44
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=== poningru remembers filling out a 'survey' like 2 years ago
Burgworkand a better db, currenlty it uses flat files12:45
poningruand it went through asking is this working correctly? is this working correctly etc.12:45
Burgworkyes, it is12:46
Burgworkogra was working onit12:46
poningruhmm thanks dude12:50
poningrubut yeah site seems pretty crappy12:50
poningruthrows error at search12:50
Burgworkit has nto been worked on in about a year12:56
LaserJockI think there might be some edgy specs for it though12:58
Burgworknot really12:59
Burgworkspecs but no work12:59
LaserJockwell, I think ogra just needs to find people for it12:59
LaserJockI remember talk about it at Paris01:00
Burgworkit was always been a matter of finding people01:03
Burgworkmaybe we should start a DVD bounty program01:04
Burgworkwin a DVD for working on seomthing01:04
LaserJockt-shirts :-)01:05
Burgworksomething small, other than cash01:09
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nixternaljsgotangco: i just sent up a patch for your Kubuntu Quickguide04:49
nixternalwe are replacing the &distro-version; with &distro-rev; instead now04:50
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mdkenixternal: we don't maintain the quickguide any more08:16
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tonyyarussoThe Ubuntu Book comes in hardcover?  Amazon just had paperback, but Barnes & Noble lists it hardcover.08:19
mdketonyyarusso: we don't know08:20
tonyyarussomdke: Erm, right.  Not this group.08:21
tonyyarussoWell, some overlap, but..08:21
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Madpilothi Burgundavia 08:32
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Burgundaviahey Madpilot08:32
Burgundaviaanybody else on edgy here?08:33
Burgundaviathat is brilliant08:33
MadpilotI has my moments ;)08:33
Burgundaviayou should make the three bars to be tentacles08:33
Madpilotyeah, the logo needs a bit of work08:33
BurgundaviaI wonder if chthulhubuntu.org is taken08:33
Burgundaviaaside from being unspellable, it is great domain name08:34
Madpilotthe GIMP has a lack of distortion filters08:34
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poningruBurgundavia: /me is09:13
Burgundaviaponingru: have you noticed g-a-i is borked or is it just me?09:13
Burgundaviagnome-app-install, aka Add/Remove09:26
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=== poningru should have opened this in the terminal...
Burgundaviait doesn't do anything09:27
=== poningru wonders if deskbar keeps a log of stdout
poningruBurgundavia: oh it started up for me09:28
=== poningru did it from deskbar though
Burgundaviathe window draws for me, but that is it09:30
Burgundaviaanyway, night 09:31
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mdkehi there lloydinho 11:21
lloydinhohi mdke11:22
mdkelloydinho: what's the status with your document, do you need to update the repository version?11:22
lloydinhomdke: Most likely. The current one still has the problem with eaten whitespaces after links and such11:23
mdkeshall we sync from the wikipage then?11:24
lloydinhoplus random typos have been fixed in the wiki version as well.11:24
lloydinhothat sounds good.11:24
mdkemvirkkil: pong (from a few days ago) and is your wiki updated with that bold fix?11:24
mdkemdke: yes it is, why didn't you just check yourself11:27
mdkelloydinho: the doc is valid for kubuntu too right? I could move it to trunk/generic11:29
lloydinhomdke: it should be. I still need some kubuntu people to look it over and finally approve11:30
lloydinhobut I think it should be good.11:30
=== mdke points at nixternal
lloydinhonixternal, can you confirm that the contribute doc covers Kubuntu to a sufficient degree?11:32
mdkelloydinho: what are you going to do with the wikipage now? Would you think of freezing it somehow? otherwise we will get out of sync between wiki/svn11:32
lloydinhoI don't know what the best option would be. 11:32
lloydinhoI would like to allow people to edit the wiki page, since few people have done so, so far.11:33
mdkehow mature do you feel it is?11:33
mdkemaybe we can move it to the website, and keep the wiki as a sort of development version11:33
lloydinhoWell. That would be a good way of freezing it, for sure.11:34
lloydinhoIt is still relatively untested, so it's not very mature.11:34
lloydinhoBut it is feature-complete, as far as I can say.11:34
mdkeafter I upload it, post to the list and ask for some reviews. Then if there are any changes, maybe we can do them both in svn and on the wiki. And then we can try the website trick11:35
mdkebtw, I'm really excited about this document, I can't praise what you've done highly enough11:35
lloydinhomdke: thanks! I would be delighted if this doc does some good in attracting people to contribute to Ubuntu.11:36
mdkeI think it will be the definitive guide to contributing :)11:37
mdkejono will love it11:37
lloydinhoI think it would be great to try out the wiki doc development model with this doc, as I'm sure there'll be plenty of changes along the line.11:39
lloydinhoHopefully, that will make it easier to maintain.11:40
Madpilotwhich doc is this?11:40
lloydinhothe contribute to ubuntu doc.11:40
mdkelloydinho: agreed11:40
Madpilotjust found it, at the top of RecentChanges - where I should have looked first :)11:40
mdkeexcept for the missing whitespace issue with "tidy", it seems a quite smooth process11:41
lloydinhocool. I'm sure that's another small bug to fix, too.11:42
mdkeI'll try and find out where tidy developers hang out11:42
mdkelloydinho: committed. I think I've caught all the missing whitespaces, maybe just have a quick skim through to check? It occurs after </ulink> and </emphasis>11:42
lloydinhomdke: will do. I'll also send out a call for review.11:44
mdkeI'll try and get it uploaded to Edgy11:44
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mdkempt: hi, around?11:57
mptmdke, yo12:00
mdkempt: sorry not to catch up with you last week, it was an odd week for me. I wanted to speak about the desktop section of the help system, if you have a moment12:01
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lloydinhoMail sent. Thanks for the help, mdke.12:18
mdkelloydinho: np, thank you12:19
mdkeSeveas: the "new bug" feature of Ubugtu, could it be set up for here, and distros/ubuntu/+source/(k)ubuntu-docs and products/ubuntu-docs?12:21
mdkevery cool feature12:21
mptmdke, I'll be back in an hour or so, will you still be here?12:30
mdkempt: yes, hope so.12:32
lloydinhodoes anybody know what the plan is with the "small" docs of the generic docs?12:46
lloydinhosuch as the Installation guide, network install guide, security guide and dial-up guide?12:47
mdkenone of those are maintained, afaik12:47
lloydinhoSo should they just be integrated into some of the other docs, instead?12:48
mdketrappist was making some noises about having a go at the security guide, but the installguide is totally old12:48
lloydinhoyes. I noticed that.12:48
mdkeI'll delete the install guide. As for dialup, we definitely want to expand the "connecting to the internet" section of the desktopguide, but it is likely that the wiki might have more up to date information12:48
lloydinhoMaybe we could also integrate the security concerns into the desktop guide?12:50
lloydinhoIt doesn't look that big at the moment.12:50
mdkeI think that security is not necessarily a "desktop" subject... I'd love to see it expand as its own doc12:51
lloydinhopoint taken. But at the moment it is pretty much just a FAQ.12:52
mdkesure. If it doesn't take off, we can just leave it out, I think12:53
lloydinhoof course. I was just picking at some loose ends.12:54
lloydinhoIt may not directly be a desktop issue, but I don't think most users will categorize various issues in that way.12:55
mdkeyou think it would be better inside the desktop section of the help system, than in its own section?12:57
lloydinhoWell, atm the distinction is between desktop and server.01:00
mdkelloydinho: we're working on that though, right?01:00
mdkeI'd like things which logically apply to both to have their own place on the front page, myself01:02
lloydinhoAh, of course.01:02
lloydinhoJust had to look it up. Yes.01:02
lloydinhoSecurity would be in the "Maintaining your system" section, wouldn't it?01:03
lloydinhorather than in a guide of its own.01:03
mdkefor me, it would be on the front page, since it applies to desktops and servers01:03
mdkea bit like the add-applications document01:03
lloydinhooh. I was just looking at this: http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png01:04
mdkeah, that has gone by the wayside, i'm afraid. We haven't had much time to work on something like that01:04
mdke(minus the bottom item)01:04
mdkeand with add-applications higher up01:05
lloydinhooh, allright. 01:05
lloydinhoWell, we would definitely want to avoid cluttering that too much.01:06
lloydinhooh! Lunch! gotta go01:06
mdkegood idea01:06
mvirkkilmdke: hi01:40
mdkemvirkkil: ello. You pinged the other day?01:40
mvirkkilmdke: do you have any nice documents to convert from docbook to moin?01:40
mdkemvirkkil: books or articles?01:40
mvirkkilmdke: either01:40
mvirkkilmdke: both 01:40
mdkeyeah, sure01:40
mdkehave you got a copy of our repository?01:41
mvirkkilmdke: no, I probably could get one.01:41
mdkeok, cool. let's try trunk: "svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk foldername"01:41
mvirkkilmdke: There's now an action called ImportDocBook which will let you upload a docbook (xml)01:41
mdkeoh wow01:42
mdkeI'll give it a try, shall I?01:42
mvirkkilmdke: It will convert it on the fly which is amazingly slow.01:42
mvirkkilThough mainly because it fetches and pareses the docbook dtd and any other entity refs the docbook has01:42
mvirkkila largeish document takes close to a minute to upload.01:43
mvirkkilor process01:43
mdkethat's the problem for us. Most of our documents involve more than one file01:43
mdkeand the entity refs are relative paths01:43
mvirkkilmdke: xmllint --xinclude --noent mainfile.xml > output.xml01:43
mdkeok, I'll do some of that, and test.01:43
mdkeanything else I need to know?01:43
mvirkkilmdke: That will give you a single file, where all entities get replaced. 01:44
mdkeyour wiki is really slow >_< I'm still waiting for it to load01:44
mvirkkilmdke: Hmm.. Hopefully not :) But basically there is a high probablility for glitches.01:44
mvirkkilmdke: I'm seeing the same thing.01:44
mvirkkilmdke: I need to talk to the admin about that.01:44
mvirkkilmdke: It's basically not responding :(01:45
mdkeif it improves later I'll upload some stuff, and send you links to the result, and our html versions for comparison, shall I?01:45
mvirkkilmdke: "qandaset" isn't implemented. 01:45
mdkefine, we don't use that01:45
mvirkkilmdke: sure, that would be great.01:45
mdkeok. You are a god01:45
mvirkkilmdke: lol! :)01:46
mdkewhat's your mail address?01:46
mvirkkilmdke: mvirkkil@cc.hut.fi01:46
mdkelovely. I'll let you know01:46
mvirkkilmdke: You can also just send me the name of what doc is causing trouble, and I'll see for my self.01:46
mvirkkilmdke: I wasn't really expecting you to start testing, more like looking for pointers on what docs to test my self.01:47
mdkeI'm happy to test01:47
mvirkkilmdke: and that is great :)01:47
mdkei'll look to upload stuff from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper because it's easy to compare the result with what we have at https://help.ubuntu.com (HTML)01:47
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mdkemvirkkil: no worky. [Errno 2]  No such file or directory: '/home/mvirkkil/log.txt'02:36
mdkemvirkkil: want the traceback?02:37
mdkejjesse: morning02:37
mdkemvirkkil: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/2138802:38
jjessehiya jsgotangco02:39
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mptmdke, hello again02:44
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mdkempt: hiya. You mentioned a while back that you wanted to have a go at the desktopguide to give it a better structure, i.e. more top levels sections to suit the new help system structure. Have you already had some ideas about that?02:46
mptmdke, yes, though it's all rearranging deckchairs as long as it's in a section with a name like "Desktop" :-)02:47
mdkethe section is called "Working with your desktop" at the moment02:47
mpt(..."Where's the varnishing section?")02:47
mdkewhat did you have in mind?02:47
mptProbably the biggest benefit would come from pulling sections out into their own top-level topics02:48
mpte.g. "Installing or removing software", "Using the Internet"02:48
mdkeby top level, you mean top level in the desktopguide, as opposed to top level in yelp, right?02:49
mptno, top level in yelp02:49
mdkewell, installing or removing software is now top level in yelp02:49
mdkenot using the internet though02:49
lloydinhoah, we were just talking about this, as well.02:49
mdkempt: I think that getting more top level documents in the yelp TOC is going to be a bit tricky for this release, and that we should probably work on trying to promote things to the second level (i.e. when you click on "Working with your desktop")02:51
mdkethat's rather what I understood you to be saying in your last email02:51
mptTricky in what way?02:51
mdkewell, a lot of work. We'd probably have to move away from the yelp TOC system completely02:52
mptNot necessarily02:52
mptEven just one or two extra topics at the top level would be an improvement, I think02:53
mpteven if that made the rest of the UDG into an "Other" section :-x02:53
mdkempt: the current look is: http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png02:53
mdkewe'll remove the Packaging guide from that02:53
mdkewhat would you suggest adding?02:53
mptMay I giggle at one of those?02:54
mptThat looks like a definite improvement from Dapper02:55
mptbut "Working with your server"? ... hmmmmm02:55
lloydinhosounds like you already are giggling ;-)02:55
mptNot as bad as "Using the Gimp", I guess02:55
mdkempt: we can change all that easily02:56
lloydinhoYes, it's more a question of the general layout.02:57
mdkeespecially what we should add/remove from that list02:57
mptWell, I wasn't aware you could change general layout02:57
mptbut that's a very wide window02:58
mptand the left side is unused02:58
mdkethat's old yelp02:58
mdkenew yelp has lots on the left, with all the application manuals02:59
mdkesorry, I did that screenshot with our edgy package on a dapper yelp02:59
lloydinhothere's a nice list of other help screens to compare with...03:01
mptAnd remember http://g2meyer.com/usablehelp/gallery/ :-)03:03
=== mdke grumbles at not having a "Fix Committed" link in the bug portlet on LP
mdkeso what do you guys think about top level/second level stuff?03:07
mdkeat the moment, internet is not even second level03:07
lloydinhowell, do we even know what people look up the most?03:09
mptWow, that guidebookgallery page shows how crappy help is in most OSes03:09
lloydinhoindeed! 03:09
lloydinhoMost help will seems to be too general to be of any use.03:10
mdkemy proposal would be to move almost everything up a level. so Music & Video, Internet, Configuring your Desktop, Office, etc etc would all be top level in the desktopguide, i.e. second level on the help system03:10
mdkeit may not be idea, but I think a step in the right direction is all we'll have time for for Edgy03:11
mptThat would be an improvement03:11
mdkemuch of "desktopguide/getting started" might warrant a separate doc, actually03:11
mdkei.e. top level in yelp03:11
mdkeit's not really anything to do with the desktop03:12
lloydinhowe can have a "New to Ubuntu?" doc..03:12
mdkewe could do. If we did, we could include much of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions in it too03:13
jjesseshouldn't the "New To Ubuntu" information be covered in the release notes?03:13
mdkejjesse: I don't think so, releasenotes are more about specific releases. and we don't ship those with ubuntu in the help system03:14
mdke(rightly or wrongly)03:14
jjesseis there a reason that you don't ship the release notes w/ ubuntu?  they are included w/ kubuntu03:14
mvirkkilmdke: URGH!03:15
=== mvirkkil sucks
mvirkkilIt seems I committed without removing the debug print.03:15
mdkejjesse: I guess because the developers wrote them and we never ported them to xml... 03:15
jjessemdke: interesting, cause we write the kubuntu release notes :)03:15
mdkethey don't fit particularly well with the help system structure we're sketching out, I don't think03:16
mdkeI've always viewed releasenotes as containing information that is specific to a release, rather than documentation about how to use the OS03:16
jjesseagreed but it does cover what is new in that reelease03:17
mdkeah, misunderstanding03:17
mdkehe means "new as in new users", not "new as in new features"03:17
jjesseah i see now03:17
jjessemore of a "Welcome to Ubuntu" thing?03:18
lloydinhooh. Yes, like that.03:18
lloydinhoLike we currently have an "introduction to Ubuntu" document.03:18
mvirkkilmdke: I'll fix it as soon as I get home. This is exactly why I shouldn't be the lone tester :)03:18
mptRelease notes are what you write when you have information that's too new to put in its appropriate place03:18
mvirkkilmdke: I appreciate your help :)03:19
mdkemvirkkil: great, thanks. Shall I try something else, or will it break for everything?03:19
mvirkkilmdke: It's broken for everything.03:19
mdkeok :) I'll try again tomorrow then03:19
mvirkkilmdke: sorry about that.03:19
jjessewow close those bugs mdke :)03:28
mdkelots more left!03:28
mdkempt: how do you feel about the "Getting Ubuntu" section in the desktopguide <runs for cover>03:29
jjessewhy are the bugs in ubuntu-docs not assigned to the ubuntu doc team, look at the difference between https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+packagebugs and https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+assignedbugs03:30
mdkejjesse: bugs don't get assigned until they are confirmed and an individual takes on responsibility for fixing them. the docteam is bug contact for all ubuntu-doc bugs03:30
mdkeat least, that's how I understand the bug flow, more or less03:31
mptmdke, I think it shouldn't exist03:39
mdkempt: yes, I've deleted it.03:40
mdkejust testing :)03:40
mptMaybe I'll stay awake long enough to do some writing/chopping tonight03:40
mpt"Linux Basics" should be carved up03:40
mdkempt: ok, I'm playing around putting things up a level, lemme commit what I've got in a bit and you can play with Linux Basics03:41
mdkempt: committed, I've moved everything in "Common tasks" up a level (I had to put them in desktopguide.xml for now). It has resulted in perhaps some things being *too* high up :) let me know how you think it looks03:53
mdke"Programming" probably shouldn't be there at all, as with much of "Configuring your System"03:54
lloydinhomdke, I've just been looking at the CommonQuestions wiki page. 03:57
lloydinhoI think a fair few of those things should be easier to find in the Yelp menu.03:57
lloydinhowe could do a Common Questions list with links to various subtopics.03:58
mptIf there are any Common Questions, they should be on the front front page, and link directly to the answer for each03:58
lloydinhoyes, that was what I meant, really :-)03:59
mdkethe actual question on the front page?03:59
lloydinhocompare to this: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/system/features/help/macosx103.png03:59
=== mdke is not sure how we could handle that
lloydinhohm. Well, it would require some restructuring, I guess.04:00
lloydinhomost of the questions in the CommonQuestions can easily be covered by the Introduction to Ubuntu/"New to Ubuntu?" doc.04:01
lloydinhothere are only a few technical questions that would need to be answered up front.04:02
lloydinhoLike: "How do I install new applications?"04:04
lloydinhoand "How do I play MP3s and other multimedia files?"04:05
Riddellmdke, nixternal: new kubuntu-docs uploaded to dapper-upadts04:06
=== nixternal wipe eyes and yawns
lloydinhomaybe we can do these as sort of linkable bullet points under the desktop headline ..?04:07
mdkeRiddell: oh awesome! is there anything that needs to be merged back into our repo?04:08
mdkempt: sorry, I've committed something else, update again if you're working on it04:09
Riddellmdke: changelog entry if you could http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/77323804:09
mdkeRiddell: ok, thanks. done.04:11
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mdkempt: another thing we need to look at is the relationship between the desktop guide and the Gnome Desktop Guide, which probably has lots of good material we could integrate04:21
=== nixternal heads off to the gym...bbiab
mptmdke, I won't be working on it for another 2.5 hours or so04:22
mptI have paid work to do :-P04:23
mdkeok, see ya later. I might do some more in the meantime then04:24
lloydinhomdke, I did a sketch of a layout for the toplevel yelp menu.04:32
lloydinhothe linebreaks don't work, but I'm sure you get the idea.04:32
mptlloydinho, good start, now halve the words :-)04:41
lloydinhohm... tricky. :-)04:41
mdkehere is how the desktopguide looks now (haven't committed yet): http://mdke.org/tmp/desktopguide.png04:43
mptgreat jorb04:43
mdkea fair amount of that isn't relevant to desktops at all really... especially "Networking"04:45
mdkeand "Programming04:45
mdkemost of Hardware can be relocated to "Graphics", "Internet" and so on04:47
lloydinhogood stuff!04:47
mdkewhat do you guys think about moving "Digital Cameras" and "Graphics Cards" from "Hardware" to "Graphics"? I'd quite like to eliminate Hardware altogether04:49
lloydinho"hardware" is a rather unhelpful category.04:51
mdkei think so too04:51
lloydinhoBut Digital Cameras would be in a "peripherals category" rather than a graphics category, wouldn't it?04:51
mdkedunno, the photo management applications are in the Graphics menu, that's my reasoning04:52
lloydinhoWell, I'm sure that if we change the title of that chapter to Graphics and Photo management, we are all good04:52
=== mdke updates screenshot
lloydinhompt, mdke: how about this, then:05:01
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mdkelloydinho: we've got installing new applications in the table of contents as a separate item right now, as it applies to desktops, servers and so on05:02
mdkeotherwise, it's cool05:03
lloydinhomhm. But in the server guide, it's all from the command line, while in the desktop guide it's via the G-A-I and the command line.05:04
lloydinhobesides, I doubt anybody would be setting up a server who didn't know how to use synaptic..05:05
mdkewell, hang on05:05
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mdkethe add-applications guide covers all of those, the idea being that you can use what you like, regardless of what you are doing05:05
mdkeso you can use synaptic to set up a server, and the command line to install things on your desktop05:06
mdkedepending on what you like05:06
lloydinhooh, okay. 05:06
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lloydinhoBut since it is linked on the front page, would it matter that it is under the Desktop heading rather a completely separate menu item?05:07
lloydinhoCan we not just refer people to the same document if they read the Server Guide instead?05:08
mdkeyou mean have it as a subsection in both the desktop and server sections?05:09
lloydinhowell, no. Have it as it is now on the frontpage, but also have sort of symlink to it in the server section as well.05:10
lloydinhoSo it is a separate document as planned, but linked from both one and another.05:11
lloydinho*linked to*05:11
mdkewell, what we've done in the desktop guide so far is to link to that document whenever a procedure involves installing a package05:11
lloydinhoyes. I'm just worried that it will confuse people to have that as a separate menu item when it clearly belongs with both of them (which also would be confusing)05:14
lloydinhoSo if we link to it from the frontpage, hinting that it is part of the desktop guide, people will go have a look05:15
mdkeoh, I see05:15
lloydinhoin the desktop guide, and they will find links to it all over the place05:15
mdkewe can't link to stuff from the frontpage really.05:16
lloydinhoOr just go straight to the doc..05:16
mdkenot unless we write our own frontpage, instead of using the automatically generated one that yelp produces05:16
lloydinhohm. 05:18
lloydinhoI have no idea how difficult that would be.05:18
mdkenot so difficult. that's what http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png was trying to do05:19
lloydinhooh, right. 05:19
lloydinhoI think it might be worthwhile to consider. 05:19
mdkeme too05:19
mdkethe yelp frontpage is going to clash horribly with our documentation05:20
mdkeso rolling our own is likely to be a good idea05:20
lloydinhoyep - it will also make it possible for us to make it easier to use, since we know what people are likely to be looking for.05:21
mdkei really need to get an Edgy system05:21
lloydinhowell, as far as I can tell, it still breaks a fair bit.05:23
lloydinhoBut it would definitely be helpful.05:23
mdkeok, I'm going to do some real work. Thanks for chatting05:25
lloydinhocool. see ya05:28
mdkelloydinho: some feedback on the contribute doc:05:43
mdke16:44:19 < DonS> In the section on MOTU, there is an unended paragraph:05:43
mdke16:44:33 < DonS> Once you have gained experience with packaging tasks ... Ubuntu core developer by .05:43
mdke16:44:44 < DonS> It sort of ends there ;)05:44
mptlloydinho, that's an improvement05:44
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lloydinhomdke, nixternal - please come cheer on me for the CC meeting :-)06:19
nixternalwhen is it?06:19
mdkelloydinho: I did so by email last week, Kamion has it. I can't attend the meeting I'm afraid06:26
=== mdke dives back to work
lloydinhono worries. Kamion dug it out at the opportune moment. Thanks a lot.06:28
nixternallloydinho: you still around?06:40
lloydinhonixternal, yep.06:41
nixternallloydinho: if possible, you need to configure your IRC server port to 8001.  You are falling victim to DCC exploits utilizing port 6667 hence the reason you are in a banned list06:41
nixternal <nalioth> he's on the ban-forward in #ubuntu06:42
lloydinhoI don't even know what that means.06:42
nixternalhehe, it means that people boot you with a dcc exploit that causes you to join/quit quite a bit06:43
lloydinhooh. That's good to know. Hopefully, that will be cleared out next time I restart Xchat.06:44
nixternalif you set up your irc client to use port 8001, it prevents the dcc exploit, and then gets you removed from the ban-forward list...the ban-forward list will drop you off into a channel like #fix_your_router or #setup_irc_for_port_8001, or whatever they set it to06:44
lloydinhohm. Is this standard knowledge around here? How do people get to know this?06:44
nixternalfrom people like me telling them..it needs to be made standard06:45
nixternalrob: ^^06:45
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Burgworkmdke, please please please, ContributeToUbuntu????07:37
=== Burgwork grumbles
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nixternaljjesse: i did some work on the kubuntu release notes docs btw...there still needs to be some loving applied to it, but there is a decent start to it07:52
nixternalthe about-kubuntu needs a decent "Support" section as well. You can't use the LTS support one, and I really couldn't find the words to add for Edgy Support, as Edgy is nothing more than a version to build future versions from07:53
jjessei've been thinking on that as well, since i saw your patch07:54
nixternali can continue working on and updating the release notes for edgy if you hadn't planned anything and if you don't mind07:55
jjesseno that's fine for now, i would like to help w/ focusing on switching some more also need to take a look at the desktop guide07:55
nixternali would as well, but getting the docs up'd b4 the freeze is just a tad bit more important right now...also, the desktop guide, last i heard robotgeek was working on it, and asked me to help with splitting the sections..i emailed him about it and haven't heard back yet...and he hasn't been online since he last said that as well07:57
nixternali don't want to step on toes either07:57
nixternali figured we could have all grabbed a file or 2 and worked on them together...07:59
LaserJockBurgwork: what's wrong with ContributeToUbuntu?08:03
BurgworkLaserJock, because there are already two other docs doing the same thing08:04
Burgworkand because I asked them to merge thema nd nothing happended08:04
LaserJockwe are working on it08:04
Burgworkso all that has happened is the waters have been muddied08:05
LaserJockContributeToUbuntu is lloydinho's rough draft of what is going into the svn repo08:05
LaserJockI think the idea is to get the website and yelp page decently in sync08:06
LaserJockdoes that sound ok?08:06
Burgworkyes, but annoucing it has the final doc, like mdke did is not cool, in my books08:08
Burgworksaying "we are working on a new doc" is ok08:08
LaserJockoh, were did he announce that?08:08
jjessei didn't read his announcment as a final doc08:08
jjesseespecially the part on comment on it08:09
Burgworkplanet ubuntu08:09
jjesseis it different then what went out on sounder08:09
Burgwork"Now, we have a definitive document which lists"08:09
BurgworkI rest my case08:10
jjesse"please have a read through this document and check it for accuracyr..... so please comment on the document  as soon as possible so that we CAN FREE IT when it is MATURE enought"  (empahsise added)08:11
LaserJockwell, I think the point is to use that wiki page for developing the doc08:11
LaserJockneither the website nor the doc team svn are exactly open for all teams to easily contribute too08:12
Burgworkwell, then lead off with "we are developing a doc", not this is a finished doc08:12
Burgworkplus, I completely disagree about where to keep it08:13
LaserJockwhere would you suggest?08:13
Burgwork /community/participate08:13
LaserJockbut that is in no way open08:13
Burgworkit doesn't have to be08:13
Burgworkit links to other places that are open08:14
LaserJockwe are trying to get teams to contribute08:14
Burgworkhaving a giant list is a maintenance nightmare08:14
Burgworksee HelpingUbuntu for a much better and slimer version08:14
LaserJockwe don't want the slimmer version though08:14
LaserJockthat exists and is good08:14
Burgworkwe need one doc, regardless08:14
LaserJockwe are trying to ship a doc that has more complete information08:15
Burgworkannouncing yours as cononical when others exist is bad form08:15
LaserJockI agree08:15
Burgworknow I have to disagree publicly, on planet08:15
LaserJockI don't think that was Matthew's intent at all, but I can understand that it could be taken that way08:15
LaserJockI truely think there needs to exist a short summary version and a more complete doc-style version08:17
LaserJockyou heard the people at Ubucon at my talk08:17
LaserJockthere needs to be at times a lot of hand holding08:17
LaserJockand a website is not exactly the place to do it08:18
jjessei agree with LaserJock08:18
jjessefor a more complete doc=style version08:18
LaserJockI think they should be consistent for sure08:18
Burgworkmy vision is a single small doc leading to lots of other docs for the teams08:19
LaserJockmy problem with that is:08:19
jjessedid you guys look at HelpingKubuntu for the kubntu section or is there not going to be and need a separte doc for that?08:19
LaserJock1) teams don't maintain there info very well (we could poke them about it though)08:19
LaserJock2) there is a lot more information that people need than just "Here are the teams"08:19
Burgwork1 needs to be solved, either way08:20
Burgwork2 is not an issue08:20
LaserJockit's not?08:20
jjessei respectively disagree w/ you Burgwork08:20
LaserJockpeople don't know about mailing lists, IRC, Launchpad, etc.08:20
Burgworkbecause the doc I was plnaing is more than just a list08:20
Burgworkit says what the team does, in general terms08:20
jjessehow many i need help w/ x emails do we get on launchpad for example08:20
LaserJockif we just shove them at teams then they have no feel for the overall tools and process08:21
Burgworkthose shoudl be directed to thea appropritate team08:21
LaserJockto some degree08:22
Burgworkregardless, mdke should not have worded it like that08:22
LaserJockI can agree there, it perhaps should have been worded differently08:22
Burgworkand now I need to disagree with him very publicly08:22
LaserJockI think we are in the process of making a definitive doc08:23
LaserJockbut it certainly won't be a wiki page in the end08:23
LaserJockit should be in the shipped docs and on community/pariticipate08:23
Burgworkthat is a maintenance nightmare08:23
BurgworkI just don't see the point of shipping it08:23
Burgworknobody can realistically contribute to ubuntu without an internet connection of some kind, even if just at a community centre08:24
Burgworkplus information changes08:24
BurgworkI do see the point of sayiing" if you want to help, go here"08:24
LaserJockI think we need something that is doc in style08:24
Burgworkyes, we do08:24
Burgworkjust not shipped08:25
LaserJockand I don't see how that would fit well on community/participate08:25
LaserJockand if it is a doc, I don't see a problem with shipping it08:25
Burgworkthink outside teh box08:25
Burgworkthe style of that website page can change08:25
LaserJockbut I'm talking several pages08:25
Burgworkwell, the team pages are always going to be on the wiki08:25
Burgworkhavine several pages is a bad idea08:26
Burgworkwe need a single point of entry08:26
Burgworkhence the hierarchy I proposed08:26
LaserJockbut we also need a lot of material08:26
Burgworkhence why one doc will also not work08:26
nixternalman...there are go many good points on either side here...no reason to ship it by Burgwork, agree and disagree...agree because until i started working with the doc team, i never read the installed docs or help...disagree as many people who use ubuntu don't scour the wiki, forums, launchpad, and lists..if htey happen to look at the installed docs they will see it...my $0.0208:26
Burgworktoo much will cause people to give up08:26
LaserJockone doc will08:26
LaserJockI think ;-)08:26
Burgworkgrabbing lunch, back in 2008:26
Burgworkyou try and stuff 50 different projects across 12+ teams and see if it works08:27
Burgworkthat are changing so rapidly08:27
LaserJockmy point is not the teams08:27
LaserJockI don't care so much about the teams08:27
LaserJockI'm more worried about the big picture stuff people need to know08:27
LaserJockwe need to target people who have not used IRC or mailing lists or Launchpad08:28
LaserJockwe know nothing about the processes that we use08:28
nixternali also see the need for seperations..as someone who uses Xubuntu might not be interested in Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or Edubuntu contribute docs as much08:28
LaserJockit should be universal, IMO08:29
nixternalso i can see, creating seperate docs at the same time...however, people who might be like us, want to contribute to every aspect08:29
nixternalLaserJock: i agree with that as well, but no matter which way it goes, there will be negative and positive about it..as both views right now are good08:30
nixternalat first i wasn't agreeing with Burgwork, then he laid out his reasons and they made sense...08:30
LaserJockpart of the problem is that the website has not been very open for us08:30
nixternali for one, truthfully never opened the KDE Help Center since the 90's08:30
LaserJockso making changes there is difficult08:30
nixternaland I have never used Yelp up until recently, and only to check out the docs i create08:31
LaserJockthat is what we need to change08:31
nixternali think we need to poll users maybe and see how many actually read through yelp, or kde help center or whatever is in xubuntu as well just to see how many are with us08:31
LaserJockwe shouldn't always side-step the issue08:31
nixternali think, there should be a seperation of some sort from the kde help center and yelp with docs08:32
nixternalgoogle has replaced help really amongst most users08:32
LaserJockand that is a very bad thing08:32
nixternaleven the newbies know how to google something08:32
jjessei just use the wiki for help08:32
nixternalif it is ubuntu general, i know it is usually on the wiki somewhere08:33
nixternalbut you can't beat google08:33
LaserJockthe user's best resource should be their own computer08:33
LaserJockbut here's the deal08:34
nixternalwell...i can tell you from what i have seen in the kde help center..it sucks08:34
nixternalthey should call it the kde info center if anything08:34
LaserJockand it will continue to suck until people care for it08:34
jjessethe kubuntu docs or the kde docs?08:34
nixternalkde docs08:34
mdkeBurgwork: don't get it, sorry08:34
LaserJockmy problem has been in the past is that the Ubuntu website is not open to us08:35
mdkedefinitive doesn't mean final08:35
LaserJockmdke: but many people might take it as "go here and not anywhere else"08:35
mdkewell, that's the point of it, yeah08:35
=== mdke simply doesn't understand the problem
LaserJockbut that wiki page is not the final "go here" place08:36
mdkeLaserJock: surely that's exactly what that document is intended to be08:37
nixternalwebster says it can mean final, or it can be to define...but i am willing to bet, mdke is using it to define, as it is very common amongst the law types ;)08:37
LaserJockmdke: I believe it was the rough draft for andreas08:37
mdkeLaserJock: he is satisfied it is finished, subject to review, which was the whole point of my blog entry08:37
LaserJockbut we are then going to move it into the doc team repo and/or website08:38
mdkeit's in the repo08:38
mdkeand yes, website, assuming the webmaster agrees08:38
LaserJockso it would seem to be more of a WIP area rather than the "definitave" place to find the info08:38
mdkeI said that in my blog post too08:38
mdkewhen I say "definitive", what I mean is that the document will be a single and complete guide to how to contribute08:39
LaserJockI got it, but Corey is worried that it means, "bookmark this URL as this will be the place to send people"08:39
mdkenot that *that specific url* will be the single and complete guide08:39
LaserJockso it's not a big issue08:40
mdkeof course it's not a big issue08:40
Burgworkmdke, definitive means "this is the one document, all else are to be ignored"08:40
mdkeBurgwork: yes. that is what that document is08:40
Burgworkno, it is not08:40
Burgworkwe have had this disagreement before08:40
mdkeyes, it is. Don't get all stroppy because you like your document better08:40
LaserJockI think it *should* be08:41
Burgworkit is not that I like it better, it is because nobody has sufficiently answered my objections08:41
LaserJockas it is community maitained and has the review/participation of the various teams08:41
jjessei'm still confused as to what these objections are08:41
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mdkeBurgwork: go ahead and submit some feedback about the document, the call for review is on the -doc and -sounder lists08:41
Burgworkyes, but I am also going to have to publically disagree with you on planet, because of your announcement08:41
Burgworkbecause he announced the doc as something it wasn't08:42
mdkeyou're overreacting to a huge degree08:42
jjessei think you interpertued it as something other then what the announcement was08:42
jjesseman i can't spell today08:42
Burgworkmdke, no, I am not08:42
mdkethat's planet, and is a good place to ask for review from community contributors, not make announcements08:43
mdkego ahead and disagree, that's what your blog is for, don't tell me that you'll have to publically disagree, as if it is something I should be scared about08:43
mdkethere's no problem here08:43
Burgworkmdke, it is about solving some of these issues before we went public-ish08:44
BurgworkI very clearly raised my objections with you and lloydhino and got ignored08:44
Burgworkafter I had worked on a previous document and stated I would be working on it again08:44
LaserJockBurgwork: what's is your issues?08:44
Burgwork1. location of document08:44
Burgwork2. how this document fits into existing documents08:44
Burgworkmdke, planet is public08:45
Burgworkregardless of what you think08:45
jjesseso are the mailing list of sounder :)08:45
mdkeBurgwork: so is the wiki, the mailing list, and this channel08:45
mdkeall of which had discussed the document ages ago08:45
Burgworkplanet is more so08:45
mdkeso it's a question of degree, and I'm telling you that planet is a good place to ask for community review08:45
Burgwork3. How indepth the specific document gets08:45
mdkenew users are not going to jump on planet and misunderstand stuff08:45
LaserJockok, 1. you want only community/participate on the website?08:45
Burgworkyes, because of what I have already mentioned08:46
Burgworkshipping a document is nuts, imho08:46
LaserJocknot shipping doesn't mean it should go on the website08:46
Burgworknot, but maintaining two copies is very hard08:46
LaserJockthe website is very closed08:46
LaserJockas it should be08:46
Burgworkso is the shipped documentation08:46
LaserJocknot really08:46
Burgworkthe website is no more closed than the shipped documents08:46
LaserJockas with all of our docs, they start as wiki pages08:46
Burgworkonce they are docs, they are something different08:47
LaserJockand people have a clear place to submit patches08:47
mdkethere is no question of maintaining 2 documents, we've showed how easy it is to maintain one document on the wiki, and stick it in docbook08:47
mdkeit can be published easily in the distribution and on the website with no overhead08:47
BurgworkLaserJock, I have never once seen a patch from somebody I did not know already08:48
mdkeas for shipping it - lots of ubuntu users don't know how to contribute, so it's great to have the document in their face like that. What harm is it?08:48
mdkea few KB is the only cost08:48
Burgwork1. getting stale08:48
LaserJockBurgwork: yes, but the website is significantly more closed08:48
BurgworkLaserJock, not practically08:48
jjessewho can add to the website?08:49
Burgworkwhat if our shipped doc disagrees with our website?08:49
Burgworkteams come and go08:49
jjessei know i don't have access to it08:49
Burgworkjjesse, mdke and myself, others if they ask08:49
Burgworkprojects come and go08:49
LaserJockok, then lets not ship it, shipping the doc is not my point08:49
Burgworkthen we are back tot he point of how much the doc contains08:49
jjesseseems like less people have access to the web then to svn 08:49
LaserJockmy point is that a community doc should *not* be maintained on the website08:49
jjesse+1 lionelp08:50
BurgworkLaserJock, that is where they are going anyway08:50
jjesse+1 LaserJock08:50
Burgworkthe website could be more open08:50
Burgworkthat is an issue that can be resolved08:50
LaserJockI think it is the website maintainers job to grab info from the community08:50
LaserJockthe doc team should not have to maintain the website for them08:50
mdkeLaserJock: it's easy to maintain the doc on the wiki, and at stable points, include it in the shipped docs and on the website08:50
LaserJockI agree08:50
mdke6 months is not a long time08:51
BurgworkLaserJock, that is so backwards and old school08:51
mdkeit won't go stale to any significant degree08:51
LaserJockBurgwork: but it is the truth08:51
Burgworkthe website should also be driven by community08:51
BurgworkLaserJock, currently yes, but the fridge opened up08:51
LaserJockand until the website is driven by the community it is still an issue08:51
Burgworkmdke, 6 months is a long time. What if breezy contained such a doc?08:51
Burgworkit would not contain the art team, or the marketing team08:51
mdkeBurgwork: then it would be updated for dapper08:51
Burgworkor fridge08:51
mdkethe same argument applies to anything in our docs08:52
Burgworkdo you see my issue? this doc is highly volitaile, by its very nature08:52
Burgworkthis is more so08:52
mdkeno, I don't see it08:52
mdkeI think the doc is a massive asset08:52
LaserJockok, just a sec08:52
Burgworkhaving it yes, where it goes is still up for discussion08:52
jjesseif the doc team thinks the way mdke proposed is the way to go would you accept Burgwork?08:52
mdkeand having it on the system is very important08:52
LaserJockthe doc I envision shipping is not a simple list of contact info for various teams08:52
Burgworkthen what does it contain?08:53
LaserJockI want to see a doc that has what it takes to contribute to Ubuntu08:53
Burgworkbeyond a list of places to contact?08:53
LaserJockto get people excited08:53
Burgworkthat is one paragraph, maybe two08:53
LaserJockpeople need to learn about what Ubuntu development is about08:53
Burgworkand link to /community/participate08:53
LaserJockwhat tools we use08:53
Burgworkthat would be called WhyToContribute, not How08:53
mdkeBurgwork: I think this document can replace community/participate08:53
mdkeobviously it would need to be structured08:54
Burgworkmdke, /community/pariticpate can never go away08:54
mdkeno, but it can get better08:54
Burgworkmy plan always was to move HelpingUbuntu to /community/participate08:54
Burgworkthat was before this new stuff came along08:54
BurgworkI simply ran out of time and energy08:55
Burgworkdo you see why I think this is an end run?08:55
mdkethe new doc is just version 2 of HelpingUbuntu08:55
Burgworkbut I feel it is a regression, in a lot of ways08:55
mdkethey should definitely be merged, I agree08:55
mdkeBurgwork: so give feedback to the mailing list and Andreas can address those "regressions"08:55
BurgworkI already spoke with him and nothing happened08:56
mdkeirc isn't a great way of giving feedback08:56
Burgworkyes, I also didn't help08:56
Burgworkbut I think I spoke with him about two weeks ago08:56
mdkeI remember08:56
mdkebut things don't come out in a logical way on irc08:56
mdkea structured email is much better08:56
LaserJockwell I personally think the doc has a long way to go08:56
mdkeAndreas listens very well08:56
Burgworkno, they don't08:56
LaserJocka doc sprint? :-)08:57
Burgworkmark suggested in the dapper cycle08:57
mdkeLaserJock: same applies, you can also give feedback, right?08:57
Burgworkmdke, irc doesn't, sorry08:57
LaserJockyes, I'm working with andreas08:57
LaserJockI haven't had time to contribute a whole lot yet08:57
LaserJockack, there are so many issues here08:59
mdkeI think email is better for this, definitely08:59
LaserJockI'm not sure what becomes of the packaging guide either with all of this08:59
Burgworksadly I have a date with a lady tonight, otherwise I would respond via email09:01
LaserJockpriorities ;-)09:01
Burgworkindeed, terrible things09:01
BurgworkI will look into the larger issues tomorrow night09:01
LaserJockanway, at Ubucon I definately saw the need for a larger scale doc than just "here are the list of teams"09:02
LaserJockmy talk was mostly that, and I felt it wasn't very successful at all09:02
nixternali like the idea of a brief explanation of what the team does, and then here is how you can help....but there definitely needs to be something that gets a user interested in the first place09:03
LaserJockpeople need to learn "how" to contribute not just "where"09:03
nixternaland it ineeds to be seperrated, at least in terms of Kubuntu, the "Help" section09:03
crimsunthat's an NP-complete problem.09:03
LaserJockand for some of that the teams themselves are definatley the place for that09:03
LaserJockbut there are many things people need to learn before they even get to the teams09:04
Burgworkthat would be a Why doc, almost09:04
LaserJockmore than just why09:04
nixternalmaybe there should be a breakdown as well, as maybe a new user doesn't want to read "How to Contribute to development" when he/she can barely use theis new system09:04
crimsunFirst you have to convince people that philanthropy is worth their while; posterity is more important than "can I go and play football now"09:04
nixternalgood point crimsun09:04
LaserJockI see this a raising the "Ubuntu IQ" of the user population09:04
LaserJockbut maybe that is too ambitious09:05
nixternalahhh, i kind of like that analogy as well09:05
nixternalwell, i truthfully think that ambition is warranted though, especially with a young doc as this09:05
crimsunOnce you've made it clear that Ubuntu succeeds because its _potential_ userbase becomes more involved, then you can begin to describe how to more effectively worth within this social network09:05
LaserJockand these things are why I just don't see it working well on a single webpage09:06
LaserJockbut I'm not a real doc person or webmaster or anything09:06
nixternalWho, What, Where, When, Why, and How09:06
LaserJockso I really have to defer to the more knowledgable here09:06
nixternaljust restructure it09:07
nixternalwhen isn't necessary, as it is now, and forever really09:07
nixternalWhy will get the people interested...Who will let "EVERYONE" know they are wanted by the community...What and How will work together to show the type of work and maybe how it is carried out...Where will definitely be the contact info09:08
LaserJockthe thing is I can really see a doc that is rather large and perhaps it is better done on the wiki09:08
nixternalya, i can see it becoming something like the packaging guide the more i think of it..and truthfully, for something like this, i don't think it would be the best09:09
Burgworkthe initial doc shouldn't be easily editable, due to issues with public facing09:09
Burgworkbut the subsequent docs should most definitively be ont eh wiki09:09
nixternalit needs to be small in nature and to the point..otherwise you have to flip through 40 pages just to find something you might like09:09
LaserJockI guess what I'm looking at is documentation on the Ubuntu community :-)09:10
LaserJockand maybe we just shouldn't bother documenting something like that09:10
Burgworknixternal, precisely my concern09:10
nixternalyes Burgwork, i can see it now that i have sat back and thought about it more09:11
LaserJockah, well I think that is sort of differnt09:11
LaserJockI hadn't really envisioned a linear doc like the packaging guide09:11
nixternali can see an initial page or the opportunities, that link to further info09:11
LaserJockbut you guys are still talking about teams, no?09:12
mdkenixternal: documents can be structured so that this isn't a problem, with subsections09:12
nixternalme either LaserJock, until i thought about how complicated it could become09:12
LaserJockI'm not concerned with teams09:12
nixternalmdke: i realize that, and thats what pushes me for it...i have to say..right now im 50/50 on it09:12
nixternalit has, to me, an even about of good and bad with it09:12
nixternalof course, i will keep an open mind to it, and hopefully be persuaded to one side more than the other so i can at least give valuable feedback concerning the issue09:13
LaserJockthe thing for me is that "How to contribute" != "Here is a list of teams"09:13
LaserJockwhich is what all the current docs seem to do more-or-less09:13
nixternal+1 LaserJock09:13
LaserJockthe teams are pretty easy to discover on the wiki or on LP, etc.09:14
LaserJockand we *should* have a listing somewhere09:14
BurgworkLaserJock, easy to discover yes, easy to find out what they do, no09:14
mdkeanyway, it's nice to talk about this by email, where Andreas can comment09:14
LaserJockBurgwork: sort of, you can always ask a team what they do ;-)09:14
Burgworkthat doesn't always work09:14
LaserJockanyway, I'm not saying we ditch that info09:15
nixternalhere is something i envision...1 page that lists "generic" help for the community (wiki, docs, marketing, etc.)..then there is a distro specific docs for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu and how you can help each one of those09:15
LaserJockheh, well I'm pretty opposed to flavor specific docs09:15
nixternalthis would work if each community w/in the major would contribute as well though09:15
LaserJockbut it might work09:15
nixternalwell, there are Kubuntu contributors that really don't want to or aren't interested with Ubuntu or the others09:16
LaserJockit shouldn't matter09:16
nixternali know, most of us here, are hardcore junkies and we will contribute where needed09:16
nixternalbut there are those who love their distro/de more than the other and don't care about the other actually09:16
LaserJockbut I really don't see how it matters09:17
LaserJockartwork is artwork09:17
LaserJockif you want to do Kubuntu artwork fine09:17
LaserJockbut it's still artwork09:17
LaserJockI think splitting things by flavor is, in general, to be avoided09:18
LaserJockwe are a part of an Ubuntu community09:18
LaserJockbut that's just my opinion09:18
LaserJockas I really see the flavors as just different default apps09:18
LaserJockUbuntu is Ubuntu :-)09:18
nixternalsorry...phone call09:23
LaserJockanyway, I should shut up as I doubt I will have time to work a great deal on this beautiful doc :-)09:23
Burgworkhttp://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9835380873.html <-- go vote09:23
nixternalyou know what..your opinion persuaded me that my idea had a flaws...the only thing i can see being distro specific would be09:23
nixternalpackaging, development09:23
nixternalartwork however can go with packaging and development in a way...as there are already 2 different AICs, 1 for Kubuntu and 1 for Ubuntu09:24
LaserJockfor sure we can list flavor specific teams09:24
LaserJockbut I would rather do it within the larger team09:24
nixternalthere really aren't though...except from a development perspective09:24
LaserJock3 AICs ;-)09:25
nixternalheh...i think i need to see some pretty pictures ;)09:25
LaserJockbut the all work through the art team09:25
nixternalxubuntu got one?09:25
LaserJockAliasVegas is her name09:25
nixternaldoh...nm..i remember i wrote about her in the UWN ;)09:25
nixternalto late09:25
LaserJockheh, AliasVegas is her nick09:26
LaserJocknick, name, all the same09:26
nixternalya, i only refer to you as Jordan Mantha on a professional basis...irc is far from professional ;)09:26
LaserJockI don't even refer to myself as Jordan Mantha anymore09:27
nixternalit would be nice to have a sweet doc portal that everything in the world could tie into09:27
Burgworkit is gcalled google09:28
nixternali was waiting for that09:28
LaserJockgoogle is no good09:28
nixternalhe is right, but we can't count on google09:28
LaserJockI hate google for that sort of thing09:28
LaserJockgoogle is very inefficent for doc purposes09:28
poningruI dont know...09:29
LaserJockit kinda works in a "Spray and Pray" kind of method09:29
LaserJockyou have no judgment of reliability09:29
LaserJockor applicability09:29
LaserJockwhich is really bad for documentation, IMO09:29
nixternalsounds like the gangsters here in chicago...spray and pray, or depending on where in the gutter your mind is...bad analogy09:29
LaserJocknixternal: well, in Montana it's a hunting term ;-)09:30
LaserJocknixternal: some people just can't shoot straight09:30
nixternalhere in chicago as well...you just hunt something different that game09:30
=== poningru thinks of all the bad jokes he could do now...
LaserJockmdke: thanks for the bug email :-)09:30
poningrutoo bad for the coc :(09:31
LaserJocknah, I'm glad we have coc around09:31
nixternali know where you were going im sure09:31
LaserJockthere might be young kids like nixternal around ;-)09:32
nixternalim only 12 i tell ya09:32
mdkeLaserJock: plenty more when that came from09:33
crimsun12 with kids, eh?09:34
LaserJockcrimsun: my wife works with teen moms. 12 is definately not unheard of09:35
crimsunLaserJock: I tutor kids around that age who have children, yes, I know. But 12 with kids _and_ free time to engage in irc conversations? That's definitely a corner case.09:35
poningrunixternal does it using his time portals09:36
LaserJocktrue tru, you got me there crimsun ;-)09:36
poningruhe creates them using the spray and pray method09:36
nixternaloh...my physical age is 32...my mental or psychological age is 1209:37
nixternalask my shrink...he can tell you more than i can about that ;)09:37
poningruooh thats a much better explanation than mine09:37
nixternalDr. Whoflungit 888.555.583709:38
nixternalthat would be +1 for those of you not imprisoned in the US09:38
nixternaland for those of you imprisoned as well09:38
nixternalok, back on topic here...so this contributing documentation...is there ever going to be "one" solution that will work?09:45
=== mdke pleads to go to email
nixternalheh, i dont' have anywhere to start with that one that...except for the simple question...if anyone can provide more then i would recommend they do it ;)09:46
LaserJockmdke: hehe, don't worry09:46
mdkeit's just that Andreas isn't here, so email is much better09:46
LaserJockI just needed some brainstorming before the email ;-)09:46
=== mdke nods
nixternaloh no mdke, im not talking about Andreas' work at all...im talking from a simple doc standpoint...is there a "one stop shop" that will work that won't be to much or to little09:47
LaserJocknixternal: I personally think you can present different facets to do that09:47
nixternallike LaserJock, brainstorming before something larger is contstructed09:47
mdkeI feel that documents can always be structured so as to work as "one stop shops" :)09:47
mdkeif they are rigorously structured enough09:48
nixternalw/o a doubt...getting there is going to be the fun part from what i can tell09:48
=== mdke nods
mdkethat's why we're here right?09:52
LaserJockI thought it was for the ponies09:52
nixternal40 minutes later ;)  replying to Andreas' post was not fun...that was a lot of reading there...very good doco to start with thought10:32
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poningruhey guys in rhythmbox help it claims that daap discovery works out of the box10:46
poningrubut it depends on avahi-daemon10:46
mdkeUbuntu isn't shipping that, right? We could patch the help, if that's a distro deviation10:47
poningruwell not sure though10:48
mdkecan you file a bug on rhythmbox, or whatever package provides the help10:48
poningruthe big discussion on devel10:48
poningrusaid that we are going to ship with it right?10:49
poningruwait I think it was you10:49
poningruerr maybe garrett10:49
poningrunot sure10:49
mdkeI didn't follow that discussion much10:49
=== poningru looks through the discussion
LaserJockI think we are shipping avahi but it will not be turned on by default10:51
poningruhmm what about the interim though10:52
LaserJockwhat interim?10:53
poningruas in for edgy before they have it installed...10:54
poningrunm stupid question10:54
poningruits a dev branch so it doesnt matter...10:54
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mhzhi guys, soory in advance, in case i experience lag (as usual for last week)11:26
mhzI have wikied11:26
mhzand was wondering, if that can be linked from the fluxbox page at help.11:27
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poningrumdke: malone wont let me file the bug11:57
poningruit says : To report a bug about Rhythmbox, please use its official bug tracker.11:57
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LaserJockponingru: what url are you using?11:59
poningruthis has never happend to me before12:00
poningrugaah what did lp people do???12:00
nixternalrythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker12:01
nixternalalways has i believe12:01
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nixternalponingru: 12:02
poningruLaserJock: did it work for you?12:02
nixternal[17:01:50]  <nixternal> rythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker12:02
nixternal[17:01:54]  <nixternal> always has i believe12:02
LaserJockponingru: you don't want /products/12:02
nixternalooh..i just noticed the products ;)12:03
LaserJockyou want http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug12:03
LaserJockI think12:03
poningruoh ok cool12:03
nixternalNo packages matching 'rythmbox' are published in Ubuntu12:04
nixternalnope, use gnome bug tracker12:04
poningrurhythmbox :p12:04
LaserJockguys, every package in Ubuntu is in Malone12:04
nixternalmaybe if i spell it right ;)12:04
poningru:) thanks12:07

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