[12:43] <poningru> hmm we need to start a db of hardware supported
[12:43] <Burgwork> poningru, some of that is already there
[12:43] <LaserJock> there is one
[12:43] <Burgwork> got any python knowledge?
[12:44] <poningru> why?
[12:44] <poningru> shopping for a wifi card
[12:44] <LaserJock> it needs a frontend
[12:44] <poningru> ah hehe ic
[12:44] <LaserJock> the hardware database
[12:44] <poningru> wait isnt there already one?
[12:44] <Burgwork> it needs two things: a better front end
[12:45] <Burgwork> and a better db, currenlty it uses flat files
[12:45] <poningru> and it went through asking is this working correctly? is this working correctly etc.
[12:46] <Burgwork> yes, it is
[12:46] <Burgwork> hwdb.ubuntu.com
[12:46] <Burgwork> ogra was working onit
[12:50] <poningru> hmm thanks dude
[12:50] <poningru> but yeah site seems pretty crappy
[12:50] <poningru> throws error at search
[12:56] <Burgwork> it has nto been worked on in about a year
[12:58] <LaserJock> I think there might be some edgy specs for it though
[12:59] <Burgwork> not really
[12:59] <Burgwork> specs but no work
[12:59] <LaserJock> well, I think ogra just needs to find people for it
[01:00] <LaserJock> I remember talk about it at Paris
[01:03] <Burgwork> it was always been a matter of finding people
[01:04] <Burgwork> maybe we should start a DVD bounty program
[01:04] <Burgwork> win a DVD for working on seomthing
[01:05] <LaserJock> t-shirts :-)
[01:09] <Burgwork> something small, other than cash
[01:10] <LaserJock> peanuts?
[01:13] <Burgwork> right
[04:49] <nixternal> jsgotangco: i just sent up a patch for your Kubuntu Quickguide
[04:50] <nixternal> we are replacing the &distro-version; with &distro-rev; instead now
[08:16] <mdke> nixternal: we don't maintain the quickguide any more
[08:17] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
[08:19] <tonyyarusso> The Ubuntu Book comes in hardcover?  Amazon just had paperback, but Barnes & Noble lists it hardcover.
[08:20] <mdke> tonyyarusso: we don't know
[08:21] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Erm, right.  Not this group.
[08:21] <tonyyarusso> Well, some overlap, but..
[08:32] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
[08:32] <Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
[08:33] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/ChthulhubuntuLogo.png
[08:33] <Burgundavia> anybody else on edgy here?
[08:33] <Burgundavia> that is brilliant
[08:33] <Madpilot> I has my moments ;)
[08:33] <Burgundavia> you should make the three bars to be tentacles
[08:33] <Madpilot> yeah, the logo needs a bit of work
[08:33] <Burgundavia> I wonder if chthulhubuntu.org is taken
[08:34] <Burgundavia> aside from being unspellable, it is great domain name
[08:34] <Madpilot> the GIMP has a lack of distortion filters
[09:13] <poningru> Burgundavia: /me is
[09:13] <Burgundavia> poningru: have you noticed g-a-i is borked or is it just me?
[09:25] <poningru> gai?
[09:25] <poningru> gnome-auto-i...?
[09:26] <Burgundavia> gnome-app-install, aka Add/Remove
[09:26] <poningru> oh
[09:27] <Burgundavia> it doesn't do anything
[09:28] <poningru> Burgundavia: oh it started up for me
[09:28] <poningru> wfm
[09:30] <Burgundavia> the window draws for me, but that is it
[09:31] <Burgundavia> anyway, night 
[09:31] <poningru> nn
[11:21] <mdke> hi there lloydinho 
[11:22] <lloydinho> hi mdke
[11:22] <mdke> lloydinho: what's the status with your document, do you need to update the repository version?
[11:23] <lloydinho> mdke: Most likely. The current one still has the problem with eaten whitespaces after links and such
[11:24] <mdke> shall we sync from the wikipage then?
[11:24] <lloydinho> plus random typos have been fixed in the wiki version as well.
[11:24] <lloydinho> that sounds good.
[11:24] <mdke> mvirkkil: pong (from a few days ago) and is your wiki updated with that bold fix?
[11:27] <mdke> mdke: yes it is, why didn't you just check yourself
[11:28] <lloydinho> heh.
[11:29] <mdke> lloydinho: the doc is valid for kubuntu too right? I could move it to trunk/generic
[11:30] <lloydinho> mdke: it should be. I still need some kubuntu people to look it over and finally approve
[11:30] <lloydinho> but I think it should be good.
[11:32] <lloydinho> nixternal, can you confirm that the contribute doc covers Kubuntu to a sufficient degree?
[11:32] <mdke> lloydinho: what are you going to do with the wikipage now? Would you think of freezing it somehow? otherwise we will get out of sync between wiki/svn
[11:32] <lloydinho> I don't know what the best option would be. 
[11:33] <lloydinho> I would like to allow people to edit the wiki page, since few people have done so, so far.
[11:33] <mdke> how mature do you feel it is?
[11:33] <mdke> maybe we can move it to the website, and keep the wiki as a sort of development version
[11:34] <lloydinho> Well. That would be a good way of freezing it, for sure.
[11:34] <lloydinho> It is still relatively untested, so it's not very mature.
[11:34] <lloydinho> But it is feature-complete, as far as I can say.
[11:35] <mdke> after I upload it, post to the list and ask for some reviews. Then if there are any changes, maybe we can do them both in svn and on the wiki. And then we can try the website trick
[11:35] <mdke> btw, I'm really excited about this document, I can't praise what you've done highly enough
[11:36] <lloydinho> mdke: thanks! I would be delighted if this doc does some good in attracting people to contribute to Ubuntu.
[11:37] <mdke> I think it will be the definitive guide to contributing :)
[11:37] <mdke> jono will love it
[11:37] <lloydinho> :)
[11:39] <lloydinho> I think it would be great to try out the wiki doc development model with this doc, as I'm sure there'll be plenty of changes along the line.
[11:40] <lloydinho> Hopefully, that will make it easier to maintain.
[11:40] <Madpilot> which doc is this?
[11:40] <lloydinho> the contribute to ubuntu doc.
[11:40] <lloydinho> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[11:40] <mdke> lloydinho: agreed
[11:40] <Madpilot> just found it, at the top of RecentChanges - where I should have looked first :)
[11:41] <lloydinho> heh
[11:41] <mdke> except for the missing whitespace issue with "tidy", it seems a quite smooth process
[11:42] <lloydinho> cool. I'm sure that's another small bug to fix, too.
[11:42] <mdke> I'll try and find out where tidy developers hang out
[11:42] <mdke> lloydinho: committed. I think I've caught all the missing whitespaces, maybe just have a quick skim through to check? It occurs after </ulink> and </emphasis>
[11:44] <lloydinho> mdke: will do. I'll also send out a call for review.
[11:44] <mdke> great
[11:44] <mdke> I'll try and get it uploaded to Edgy
[11:57] <mdke> mpt: hi, around?
[12:00] <mpt> mdke, yo
[12:01] <mdke> mpt: sorry not to catch up with you last week, it was an odd week for me. I wanted to speak about the desktop section of the help system, if you have a moment
[12:18] <lloydinho> Mail sent. Thanks for the help, mdke.
[12:19] <mdke> lloydinho: np, thank you
[12:21] <mdke> Seveas: the "new bug" feature of Ubugtu, could it be set up for here, and distros/ubuntu/+source/(k)ubuntu-docs and products/ubuntu-docs?
[12:21] <mdke> very cool feature
[12:30] <mpt> mdke, I'll be back in an hour or so, will you still be here?
[12:32] <mdke> mpt: yes, hope so.
[12:46] <lloydinho> does anybody know what the plan is with the "small" docs of the generic docs?
[12:47] <lloydinho> such as the Installation guide, network install guide, security guide and dial-up guide?
[12:47] <mdke> none of those are maintained, afaik
[12:48] <lloydinho> So should they just be integrated into some of the other docs, instead?
[12:48] <mdke> trappist was making some noises about having a go at the security guide, but the installguide is totally old
[12:48] <lloydinho> yes. I noticed that.
[12:48] <mdke> I'll delete the install guide. As for dialup, we definitely want to expand the "connecting to the internet" section of the desktopguide, but it is likely that the wiki might have more up to date information
[12:49] <lloydinho> right.
[12:50] <lloydinho> Maybe we could also integrate the security concerns into the desktop guide?
[12:50] <lloydinho> It doesn't look that big at the moment.
[12:51] <mdke> I think that security is not necessarily a "desktop" subject... I'd love to see it expand as its own doc
[12:52] <lloydinho> point taken. But at the moment it is pretty much just a FAQ.
[12:53] <mdke> sure. If it doesn't take off, we can just leave it out, I think
[12:54] <lloydinho> of course. I was just picking at some loose ends.
[12:55] <lloydinho> It may not directly be a desktop issue, but I don't think most users will categorize various issues in that way.
[12:57] <mdke> interesting
[12:57] <mdke> you think it would be better inside the desktop section of the help system, than in its own section?
[01:00] <lloydinho> Well, atm the distinction is between desktop and server.
[01:00] <mdke> lloydinho: we're working on that though, right?
[01:02] <mdke> I'd like things which logically apply to both to have their own place on the front page, myself
[01:02] <lloydinho> Ah, of course.
[01:02] <lloydinho> Just had to look it up. Yes.
[01:03] <lloydinho> Security would be in the "Maintaining your system" section, wouldn't it?
[01:03] <lloydinho> rather than in a guide of its own.
[01:03] <mdke> for me, it would be on the front page, since it applies to desktops and servers
[01:03] <mdke> a bit like the add-applications document
[01:04] <lloydinho> oh. I was just looking at this: http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png
[01:04] <mdke> ah, that has gone by the wayside, i'm afraid. We haven't had much time to work on something like that
[01:04] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png
[01:04] <mdke> (minus the bottom item)
[01:05] <mdke> and with add-applications higher up
[01:05] <lloydinho> oh, allright. 
[01:06] <lloydinho> Well, we would definitely want to avoid cluttering that too much.
[01:06] <lloydinho> oh! Lunch! gotta go
[01:06] <mdke> good idea
[01:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: hi
[01:40] <mdke> mvirkkil: ello. You pinged the other day?
[01:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: do you have any nice documents to convert from docbook to moin?
[01:40] <mdke> mvirkkil: books or articles?
[01:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: either
[01:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: both 
[01:40] <mdke> yeah, sure
[01:41] <mdke> have you got a copy of our repository?
[01:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: no, I probably could get one.
[01:41] <mdke> ok, cool. let's try trunk: "svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk foldername"
[01:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: There's now an action called ImportDocBook which will let you upload a docbook (xml)
[01:42] <mdke> oh wow
[01:42] <mdke> I'll give it a try, shall I?
[01:42] <mvirkkil> mdke: It will convert it on the fly which is amazingly slow.
[01:42] <mvirkkil> Though mainly because it fetches and pareses the docbook dtd and any other entity refs the docbook has
[01:43] <mvirkkil> a largeish document takes close to a minute to upload.
[01:43] <mvirkkil> or process
[01:43] <mdke> that's the problem for us. Most of our documents involve more than one file
[01:43] <mdke> and the entity refs are relative paths
[01:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: xmllint --xinclude --noent mainfile.xml > output.xml
[01:43] <mdke> ok, I'll do some of that, and test.
[01:43] <mdke> anything else I need to know?
[01:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: That will give you a single file, where all entities get replaced. 
[01:44] <mdke> your wiki is really slow >_< I'm still waiting for it to load
[01:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. Hopefully not :) But basically there is a high probablility for glitches.
[01:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm seeing the same thing.
[01:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: I need to talk to the admin about that.
[01:45] <mvirkkil> mdke: It's basically not responding :(
[01:45] <mdke> if it improves later I'll upload some stuff, and send you links to the result, and our html versions for comparison, shall I?
[01:45] <mvirkkil> mdke: "qandaset" isn't implemented. 
[01:45] <mdke> fine, we don't use that
[01:45] <mvirkkil> mdke: sure, that would be great.
[01:45] <mdke> ok. You are a god
[01:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: lol! :)
[01:46] <mdke> what's your mail address?
[01:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: mvirkkil@cc.hut.fi
[01:46] <mdke> lovely. I'll let you know
[01:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: You can also just send me the name of what doc is causing trouble, and I'll see for my self.
[01:46] <mdke> sure
[01:47] <mvirkkil> mdke: I wasn't really expecting you to start testing, more like looking for pointers on what docs to test my self.
[01:47] <mdke> I'm happy to test
[01:47] <mvirkkil> mdke: and that is great :)
[01:47] <mdke> i'll look to upload stuff from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper because it's easy to compare the result with what we have at https://help.ubuntu.com (HTML)
[02:36] <mdke> mvirkkil: no worky. [Errno 2]  No such file or directory: '/home/mvirkkil/log.txt'
[02:37] <jjesse> morning
[02:37] <mdke> mvirkkil: want the traceback?
[02:37] <mdke> jjesse: morning
[02:38] <mdke> mvirkkil: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21388
[02:39] <jsgotangco> hello!
[02:39] <jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
[02:44] <mpt> mdke, hello again
[02:46] <mdke> mpt: hiya. You mentioned a while back that you wanted to have a go at the desktopguide to give it a better structure, i.e. more top levels sections to suit the new help system structure. Have you already had some ideas about that?
[02:47] <mpt> mdke, yes, though it's all rearranging deckchairs as long as it's in a section with a name like "Desktop" :-)
[02:47] <mdke> the section is called "Working with your desktop" at the moment
[02:47] <mpt> (..."Where's the varnishing section?")
[02:47] <mdke> what did you have in mind?
[02:48] <mpt> Probably the biggest benefit would come from pulling sections out into their own top-level topics
[02:48] <mpt> e.g. "Installing or removing software", "Using the Internet"
[02:49] <mdke> by top level, you mean top level in the desktopguide, as opposed to top level in yelp, right?
[02:49] <mpt> no, top level in yelp
[02:49] <mdke> well, installing or removing software is now top level in yelp
[02:49] <mdke> not using the internet though
[02:49] <lloydinho> ah, we were just talking about this, as well.
[02:51] <mdke> mpt: I think that getting more top level documents in the yelp TOC is going to be a bit tricky for this release, and that we should probably work on trying to promote things to the second level (i.e. when you click on "Working with your desktop")
[02:51] <mdke> that's rather what I understood you to be saying in your last email
[02:51] <mpt> Tricky in what way?
[02:52] <mdke> well, a lot of work. We'd probably have to move away from the yelp TOC system completely
[02:52] <mpt> Not necessarily
[02:53] <mpt> Even just one or two extra topics at the top level would be an improvement, I think
[02:53] <mpt> even if that made the rest of the UDG into an "Other" section :-x
[02:53] <mdke> mpt: the current look is: http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png
[02:53] <mdke> we'll remove the Packaging guide from that
[02:53] <mdke> what would you suggest adding?
[02:54] <mpt> hmmmmmm
[02:54] <mpt> May I giggle at one of those?
[02:55] <mpt> That looks like a definite improvement from Dapper
[02:55] <mpt> but "Working with your server"? ... hmmmmm
[02:55] <lloydinho> sounds like you already are giggling ;-)
[02:55] <mpt> Not as bad as "Using the Gimp", I guess
[02:56] <mdke> mpt: we can change all that easily
[02:57] <lloydinho> Yes, it's more a question of the general layout.
[02:57] <mdke> especially what we should add/remove from that list
[02:57] <mpt> Well, I wasn't aware you could change general layout
[02:58] <mpt> but that's a very wide window
[02:58] <mpt> and the left side is unused
[02:58] <mdke> ah
[02:58] <mdke> that's old yelp
[02:59] <mdke> new yelp has lots on the left, with all the application manuals
[02:59] <mdke> sorry, I did that screenshot with our edgy package on a dapper yelp
[03:01] <lloydinho> there's a nice list of other help screens to compare with...
[03:01] <lloydinho> http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/help
[03:03] <mpt> And remember http://g2meyer.com/usablehelp/gallery/ :-)
[03:04] <mpt> http://g2meyer.com/usablehelp/gallery/source/ubuntu-5.04.html
[03:07] <mdke> so what do you guys think about top level/second level stuff?
[03:07] <mdke> at the moment, internet is not even second level
[03:09] <lloydinho> well, do we even know what people look up the most?
[03:09] <mpt> Wow, that guidebookgallery page shows how crappy help is in most OSes
[03:09] <lloydinho> indeed! 
[03:10] <lloydinho> Most help will seems to be too general to be of any use.
[03:10] <mdke> my proposal would be to move almost everything up a level. so Music & Video, Internet, Configuring your Desktop, Office, etc etc would all be top level in the desktopguide, i.e. second level on the help system
[03:11] <mdke> it may not be idea, but I think a step in the right direction is all we'll have time for for Edgy
[03:11] <mpt> That would be an improvement
[03:11] <mdke> idea/ideal
[03:11] <mdke> much of "desktopguide/getting started" might warrant a separate doc, actually
[03:11] <mdke> i.e. top level in yelp
[03:12] <mdke> it's not really anything to do with the desktop
[03:12] <lloydinho> we can have a "New to Ubuntu?" doc..
[03:13] <mdke> we could do. If we did, we could include much of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions in it too
[03:13] <jjesse> shouldn't the "New To Ubuntu" information be covered in the release notes?
[03:14] <mdke> jjesse: I don't think so, releasenotes are more about specific releases. and we don't ship those with ubuntu in the help system
[03:14] <mdke> (rightly or wrongly)
[03:14] <jjesse> is there a reason that you don't ship the release notes w/ ubuntu?  they are included w/ kubuntu
[03:15] <mvirkkil> mdke: URGH!
[03:15] <mvirkkil> It seems I committed without removing the debug print.
[03:15] <mdke> jjesse: I guess because the developers wrote them and we never ported them to xml... 
[03:15] <jjesse> mdke: interesting, cause we write the kubuntu release notes :)
[03:15] <mdke> yeah
[03:16] <mdke> they don't fit particularly well with the help system structure we're sketching out, I don't think
[03:16] <mdke> I've always viewed releasenotes as containing information that is specific to a release, rather than documentation about how to use the OS
[03:17] <jjesse> agreed but it does cover what is new in that reelease
[03:17] <mdke> ah, misunderstanding
[03:17] <mdke> he means "new as in new users", not "new as in new features"
[03:17] <jjesse> ah i see now
[03:18] <jjesse> more of a "Welcome to Ubuntu" thing?
[03:18] <mdke> right
[03:18] <lloydinho> oh. Yes, like that.
[03:18] <lloydinho> Like we currently have an "introduction to Ubuntu" document.
[03:18] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'll fix it as soon as I get home. This is exactly why I shouldn't be the lone tester :)
[03:18] <mpt> Release notes are what you write when you have information that's too new to put in its appropriate place
[03:19] <mvirkkil> mdke: I appreciate your help :)
[03:19] <mdke> mvirkkil: great, thanks. Shall I try something else, or will it break for everything?
[03:19] <mvirkkil> mdke: It's broken for everything.
[03:19] <mdke> ok :) I'll try again tomorrow then
[03:19] <mvirkkil> mdke: sorry about that.
[03:19] <mdke> np
[03:28] <jjesse> wow close those bugs mdke :)
[03:28] <mdke> lots more left!
[03:29] <mdke> mpt: how do you feel about the "Getting Ubuntu" section in the desktopguide <runs for cover>
[03:30] <jjesse> why are the bugs in ubuntu-docs not assigned to the ubuntu doc team, look at the difference between https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+packagebugs and https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+assignedbugs
[03:30] <mdke> jjesse: bugs don't get assigned until they are confirmed and an individual takes on responsibility for fixing them. the docteam is bug contact for all ubuntu-doc bugs
[03:31] <mdke> at least, that's how I understand the bug flow, more or less
[03:39] <mpt> mdke, I think it shouldn't exist
[03:40] <mdke> mpt: yes, I've deleted it.
[03:40] <mdke> just testing :)
[03:40] <mpt> yayfor
[03:40] <mpt> Maybe I'll stay awake long enough to do some writing/chopping tonight
[03:40] <mpt> "Linux Basics" should be carved up
[03:41] <mdke> mpt: ok, I'm playing around putting things up a level, lemme commit what I've got in a bit and you can play with Linux Basics
[03:51] <mpt> ok
[03:53] <mdke> mpt: committed, I've moved everything in "Common tasks" up a level (I had to put them in desktopguide.xml for now). It has resulted in perhaps some things being *too* high up :) let me know how you think it looks
[03:54] <mdke> "Programming" probably shouldn't be there at all, as with much of "Configuring your System"
[03:57] <lloydinho> mdke, I've just been looking at the CommonQuestions wiki page. 
[03:57] <mdke> yeah
[03:57] <lloydinho> I think a fair few of those things should be easier to find in the Yelp menu.
[03:58] <lloydinho> we could do a Common Questions list with links to various subtopics.
[03:58] <mpt> If there are any Common Questions, they should be on the front front page, and link directly to the answer for each
[03:58] <mpt> IMO
[03:59] <lloydinho> yes, that was what I meant, really :-)
[03:59] <mdke> the actual question on the front page?
[03:59] <lloydinho> compare to this: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/system/features/help/macosx103.png
[04:00] <lloydinho> hm. Well, it would require some restructuring, I guess.
[04:01] <lloydinho> most of the questions in the CommonQuestions can easily be covered by the Introduction to Ubuntu/"New to Ubuntu?" doc.
[04:02] <lloydinho> there are only a few technical questions that would need to be answered up front.
[04:04] <lloydinho> Like: "How do I install new applications?"
[04:05] <lloydinho> and "How do I play MP3s and other multimedia files?"
[04:05] <mdke> yes
[04:06] <Riddell> mdke, nixternal: new kubuntu-docs uploaded to dapper-upadts
[04:07] <lloydinho> maybe we can do these as sort of linkable bullet points under the desktop headline ..?
[04:08] <mdke> Riddell: oh awesome! is there anything that needs to be merged back into our repo?
[04:09] <mdke> mpt: sorry, I've committed something else, update again if you're working on it
[04:09] <Riddell> mdke: changelog entry if you could http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/773238
[04:11] <mdke> Riddell: ok, thanks. done.
[04:21] <mdke> mpt: another thing we need to look at is the relationship between the desktop guide and the Gnome Desktop Guide, which probably has lots of good material we could integrate
[04:22] <mpt> mdke, I won't be working on it for another 2.5 hours or so
[04:23] <mpt> I have paid work to do :-P
[04:23] <mdke> cool
[04:24] <mdke> ok, see ya later. I might do some more in the meantime then
[04:32] <lloydinho> mdke, I did a sketch of a layout for the toplevel yelp menu.
[04:32] <lloydinho> http://eskar.dk/andreas/yelp%20structure.txt
[04:32] <lloydinho> the linebreaks don't work, but I'm sure you get the idea.
[04:41] <mpt> lloydinho, good start, now halve the words :-)
[04:41] <lloydinho> hm... tricky. :-)
[04:42] <mdke> cool.
[04:43] <mdke> here is how the desktopguide looks now (haven't committed yet): http://mdke.org/tmp/desktopguide.png
[04:43] <mpt> great jorb
[04:45] <mdke> a fair amount of that isn't relevant to desktops at all really... especially "Networking"
[04:45] <mdke> and "Programming
[04:47] <mdke> most of Hardware can be relocated to "Graphics", "Internet" and so on
[04:47] <lloydinho> good stuff!
[04:49] <mdke> what do you guys think about moving "Digital Cameras" and "Graphics Cards" from "Hardware" to "Graphics"? I'd quite like to eliminate Hardware altogether
[04:51] <lloydinho> "hardware" is a rather unhelpful category.
[04:51] <mdke> i think so too
[04:51] <lloydinho> But Digital Cameras would be in a "peripherals category" rather than a graphics category, wouldn't it?
[04:52] <mdke> dunno, the photo management applications are in the Graphics menu, that's my reasoning
[04:52] <lloydinho> Well, I'm sure that if we change the title of that chapter to Graphics and Photo management, we are all good
[04:53] <mdke> ok
[05:01] <lloydinho> mpt, mdke: how about this, then:
[05:01] <lloydinho> http://eskar.dk/andreas/yelp%20structure.txt
[05:02] <mdke> lloydinho: we've got installing new applications in the table of contents as a separate item right now, as it applies to desktops, servers and so on
[05:03] <mdke> otherwise, it's cool
[05:04] <lloydinho> mhm. But in the server guide, it's all from the command line, while in the desktop guide it's via the G-A-I and the command line.
[05:05] <lloydinho> besides, I doubt anybody would be setting up a server who didn't know how to use synaptic..
[05:05] <mdke> well, hang on
[05:05] <mdke> the add-applications guide covers all of those, the idea being that you can use what you like, regardless of what you are doing
[05:06] <mdke> so you can use synaptic to set up a server, and the command line to install things on your desktop
[05:06] <mdke> depending on what you like
[05:06] <lloydinho> oh, okay. 
[05:07] <lloydinho> But since it is linked on the front page, would it matter that it is under the Desktop heading rather a completely separate menu item?
[05:08] <lloydinho> Can we not just refer people to the same document if they read the Server Guide instead?
[05:09] <mdke> you mean have it as a subsection in both the desktop and server sections?
[05:10] <lloydinho> well, no. Have it as it is now on the frontpage, but also have sort of symlink to it in the server section as well.
[05:11] <lloydinho> So it is a separate document as planned, but linked from both one and another.
[05:11] <lloydinho> *linked to*
[05:11] <mdke> well, what we've done in the desktop guide so far is to link to that document whenever a procedure involves installing a package
[05:14] <lloydinho> yes. I'm just worried that it will confuse people to have that as a separate menu item when it clearly belongs with both of them (which also would be confusing)
[05:15] <lloydinho> So if we link to it from the frontpage, hinting that it is part of the desktop guide, people will go have a look
[05:15] <mdke> oh, I see
[05:15] <lloydinho> in the desktop guide, and they will find links to it all over the place
[05:16] <mdke> we can't link to stuff from the frontpage really.
[05:16] <lloydinho> Or just go straight to the doc..
[05:16] <lloydinho> no?
[05:16] <mdke> not unless we write our own frontpage, instead of using the automatically generated one that yelp produces
[05:18] <lloydinho> hm. 
[05:18] <lloydinho> I have no idea how difficult that would be.
[05:19] <mdke> not so difficult. that's what http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png was trying to do
[05:19] <lloydinho> oh, right. 
[05:19] <lloydinho> I think it might be worthwhile to consider. 
[05:19] <mdke> me too
[05:20] <mdke> the yelp frontpage is going to clash horribly with our documentation
[05:20] <mdke> so rolling our own is likely to be a good idea
[05:21] <lloydinho> yep - it will also make it possible for us to make it easier to use, since we know what people are likely to be looking for.
[05:21] <mdke> i really need to get an Edgy system
[05:23] <lloydinho> well, as far as I can tell, it still breaks a fair bit.
[05:23] <lloydinho> But it would definitely be helpful.
[05:25] <mdke> ok, I'm going to do some real work. Thanks for chatting
[05:28] <lloydinho> cool. see ya
[05:43] <mdke> lloydinho: some feedback on the contribute doc:
[05:43] <mdke> 16:44:19 < DonS> In the section on MOTU, there is an unended paragraph:
[05:43] <mdke> 16:44:33 < DonS> Once you have gained experience with packaging tasks ... Ubuntu core developer by .
[05:44] <mdke> 16:44:44 < DonS> It sort of ends there ;)
[05:44] <mpt> lloydinho, that's an improvement
[06:19] <lloydinho> mdke, nixternal - please come cheer on me for the CC meeting :-)
[06:19] <nixternal> when is it?
[06:26] <mdke> lloydinho: I did so by email last week, Kamion has it. I can't attend the meeting I'm afraid
[06:28] <lloydinho> no worries. Kamion dug it out at the opportune moment. Thanks a lot.
[06:40] <nixternal> lloydinho: you still around?
[06:41] <lloydinho> nixternal, yep.
[06:41] <nixternal> lloydinho: if possible, you need to configure your IRC server port to 8001.  You are falling victim to DCC exploits utilizing port 6667 hence the reason you are in a banned list
[06:41] <lloydinho> oh.
[06:42] <nixternal>  <nalioth> he's on the ban-forward in #ubuntu
[06:42] <lloydinho> I don't even know what that means.
[06:43] <nixternal> hehe, it means that people boot you with a dcc exploit that causes you to join/quit quite a bit
[06:44] <lloydinho> oh. That's good to know. Hopefully, that will be cleared out next time I restart Xchat.
[06:44] <nixternal> if you set up your irc client to use port 8001, it prevents the dcc exploit, and then gets you removed from the ban-forward list...the ban-forward list will drop you off into a channel like #fix_your_router or #setup_irc_for_port_8001, or whatever they set it to
[06:44] <lloydinho> hm. Is this standard knowledge around here? How do people get to know this?
[06:45] <nixternal> from people like me telling them..it needs to be made standard
[06:45] <nixternal> rob: ^^
[07:37] <Burgwork> mdke, please please please, ContributeToUbuntu????
[07:52] <nixternal> jjesse: i did some work on the kubuntu release notes docs btw...there still needs to be some loving applied to it, but there is a decent start to it
[07:53] <nixternal> the about-kubuntu needs a decent "Support" section as well. You can't use the LTS support one, and I really couldn't find the words to add for Edgy Support, as Edgy is nothing more than a version to build future versions from
[07:54] <jjesse> i've been thinking on that as well, since i saw your patch
[07:55] <nixternal> i can continue working on and updating the release notes for edgy if you hadn't planned anything and if you don't mind
[07:55] <jjesse> no that's fine for now, i would like to help w/ focusing on switching some more also need to take a look at the desktop guide
[07:57] <nixternal> i would as well, but getting the docs up'd b4 the freeze is just a tad bit more important right now...also, the desktop guide, last i heard robotgeek was working on it, and asked me to help with splitting the sections..i emailed him about it and haven't heard back yet...and he hasn't been online since he last said that as well
[07:57] <nixternal> i don't want to step on toes either
[07:57] <jjesse> ok
[07:59] <nixternal> i figured we could have all grabbed a file or 2 and worked on them together...
[08:03] <LaserJock> Burgwork: what's wrong with ContributeToUbuntu?
[08:04] <Burgwork> LaserJock, because there are already two other docs doing the same thing
[08:04] <Burgwork> and because I asked them to merge thema nd nothing happended
[08:04] <LaserJock> we are working on it
[08:05] <Burgwork> so all that has happened is the waters have been muddied
[08:05] <LaserJock> ContributeToUbuntu is lloydinho's rough draft of what is going into the svn repo
[08:06] <LaserJock> I think the idea is to get the website and yelp page decently in sync
[08:06] <LaserJock> does that sound ok?
[08:08] <Burgwork> yes, but annoucing it has the final doc, like mdke did is not cool, in my books
[08:08] <Burgwork> saying "we are working on a new doc" is ok
[08:08] <LaserJock> oh, were did he announce that?
[08:08] <jjesse> i didn't read his announcment as a final doc
[08:09] <jjesse> especially the part on comment on it
[08:09] <Burgwork> planet ubuntu
[08:09] <jjesse> is it different then what went out on sounder
[08:09] <jjesse> ?
[08:09] <Burgwork> "Now, we have a definitive document which lists"
[08:10] <Burgwork> I rest my case
[08:11] <LaserJock> hmm
[08:11] <jjesse> "please have a read through this document and check it for accuracyr..... so please comment on the document  as soon as possible so that we CAN FREE IT when it is MATURE enought"  (empahsise added)
[08:11] <LaserJock> well, I think the point is to use that wiki page for developing the doc
[08:12] <LaserJock> neither the website nor the doc team svn are exactly open for all teams to easily contribute too
[08:12] <Burgwork> well, then lead off with "we are developing a doc", not this is a finished doc
[08:13] <Burgwork> plus, I completely disagree about where to keep it
[08:13] <LaserJock> where would you suggest?
[08:13] <Burgwork>  /community/participate
[08:13] <LaserJock> but that is in no way open
[08:13] <Burgwork> it doesn't have to be
[08:14] <Burgwork> it links to other places that are open
[08:14] <LaserJock> we are trying to get teams to contribute
[08:14] <Burgwork> having a giant list is a maintenance nightmare
[08:14] <LaserJock> yes
[08:14] <Burgwork> see HelpingUbuntu for a much better and slimer version
[08:14] <LaserJock> we don't want the slimmer version though
[08:14] <LaserJock> that exists and is good
[08:14] <Burgwork> we need one doc, regardless
[08:15] <LaserJock> we are trying to ship a doc that has more complete information
[08:15] <Burgwork> announcing yours as cononical when others exist is bad form
[08:15] <LaserJock> I agree
[08:15] <Burgwork> now I have to disagree publicly, on planet
[08:15] <LaserJock> I don't think that was Matthew's intent at all, but I can understand that it could be taken that way
[08:17] <LaserJock> I truely think there needs to exist a short summary version and a more complete doc-style version
[08:17] <LaserJock> you heard the people at Ubucon at my talk
[08:17] <LaserJock> there needs to be at times a lot of hand holding
[08:18] <LaserJock> and a website is not exactly the place to do it
[08:18] <jjesse> i agree with LaserJock
[08:18] <jjesse> for a more complete doc=style version
[08:18] <LaserJock> I think they should be consistent for sure
[08:19] <Burgwork> my vision is a single small doc leading to lots of other docs for the teams
[08:19] <LaserJock> my problem with that is:
[08:19] <jjesse> did you guys look at HelpingKubuntu for the kubntu section or is there not going to be and need a separte doc for that?
[08:19] <LaserJock> 1) teams don't maintain there info very well (we could poke them about it though)
[08:19] <LaserJock> 2) there is a lot more information that people need than just "Here are the teams"
[08:20] <Burgwork> 1 needs to be solved, either way
[08:20] <Burgwork> 2 is not an issue
[08:20] <LaserJock> it's not?
[08:20] <jjesse> i respectively disagree w/ you Burgwork
[08:20] <LaserJock> people don't know about mailing lists, IRC, Launchpad, etc.
[08:20] <Burgwork> because the doc I was plnaing is more than just a list
[08:20] <Burgwork> it says what the team does, in general terms
[08:20] <jjesse> how many i need help w/ x emails do we get on launchpad for example
[08:21] <LaserJock> if we just shove them at teams then they have no feel for the overall tools and process
[08:21] <Burgwork> those shoudl be directed to thea appropritate team
[08:22] <LaserJock> to some degree
[08:22] <Burgwork> regardless, mdke should not have worded it like that
[08:22] <LaserJock> I can agree there, it perhaps should have been worded differently
[08:22] <Burgwork> and now I need to disagree with him very publicly
[08:23] <LaserJock> I think we are in the process of making a definitive doc
[08:23] <LaserJock> but it certainly won't be a wiki page in the end
[08:23] <LaserJock> it should be in the shipped docs and on community/pariticipate
[08:23] <Burgwork> that is a maintenance nightmare
[08:23] <Burgwork> I just don't see the point of shipping it
[08:24] <Burgwork> nobody can realistically contribute to ubuntu without an internet connection of some kind, even if just at a community centre
[08:24] <Burgwork> plus information changes
[08:24] <LaserJock> well
[08:24] <Burgwork> I do see the point of sayiing" if you want to help, go here"
[08:24] <LaserJock> I think we need something that is doc in style
[08:24] <Burgwork> yes, we do
[08:25] <Burgwork> just not shipped
[08:25] <LaserJock> and I don't see how that would fit well on community/participate
[08:25] <LaserJock> and if it is a doc, I don't see a problem with shipping it
[08:25] <Burgwork> think outside teh box
[08:25] <Burgwork> the style of that website page can change
[08:25] <LaserJock> sure
[08:25] <LaserJock> but I'm talking several pages
[08:25] <Burgwork> well, the team pages are always going to be on the wiki
[08:26] <LaserJock> sure
[08:26] <Burgwork> havine several pages is a bad idea
[08:26] <Burgwork> we need a single point of entry
[08:26] <LaserJock> yes
[08:26] <Burgwork> hence the hierarchy I proposed
[08:26] <LaserJock> but we also need a lot of material
[08:26] <Burgwork> hence why one doc will also not work
[08:26] <nixternal> man...there are go many good points on either side here...no reason to ship it by Burgwork, agree and disagree...agree because until i started working with the doc team, i never read the installed docs or help...disagree as many people who use ubuntu don't scour the wiki, forums, launchpad, and lists..if htey happen to look at the installed docs they will see it...my $0.02
[08:26] <Burgwork> too much will cause people to give up
[08:26] <LaserJock> one doc will
[08:26] <LaserJock> work
[08:26] <LaserJock> I think ;-)
[08:26] <Burgwork> grabbing lunch, back in 20
[08:27] <Burgwork> you try and stuff 50 different projects across 12+ teams and see if it works
[08:27] <Burgwork> that are changing so rapidly
[08:27] <LaserJock> my point is not the teams
[08:27] <LaserJock> I don't care so much about the teams
[08:27] <LaserJock> I'm more worried about the big picture stuff people need to know
[08:28] <LaserJock> we need to target people who have not used IRC or mailing lists or Launchpad
[08:28] <LaserJock> we know nothing about the processes that we use
[08:28] <LaserJock> s/we/who/
[08:28] <nixternal> i also see the need for seperations..as someone who uses Xubuntu might not be interested in Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or Edubuntu contribute docs as much
[08:29] <LaserJock> it should be universal, IMO
[08:29] <nixternal> so i can see, creating seperate docs at the same time...however, people who might be like us, want to contribute to every aspect
[08:30] <nixternal> LaserJock: i agree with that as well, but no matter which way it goes, there will be negative and positive about it..as both views right now are good
[08:30] <LaserJock> sure
[08:30] <nixternal> at first i wasn't agreeing with Burgwork, then he laid out his reasons and they made sense...
[08:30] <LaserJock> part of the problem is that the website has not been very open for us
[08:30] <nixternal> i for one, truthfully never opened the KDE Help Center since the 90's
[08:30] <LaserJock> so making changes there is difficult
[08:31] <nixternal> and I have never used Yelp up until recently, and only to check out the docs i create
[08:31] <LaserJock> right
[08:31] <LaserJock> that is what we need to change
[08:31] <nixternal> i think we need to poll users maybe and see how many actually read through yelp, or kde help center or whatever is in xubuntu as well just to see how many are with us
[08:31] <LaserJock> we shouldn't always side-step the issue
[08:31] <nixternal> true
[08:32] <nixternal> i think, there should be a seperation of some sort from the kde help center and yelp with docs
[08:32] <nixternal> google has replaced help really amongst most users
[08:32] <LaserJock> and that is a very bad thing
[08:32] <nixternal> even the newbies know how to google something
[08:32] <jjesse> i just use the wiki for help
[08:33] <nixternal> if it is ubuntu general, i know it is usually on the wiki somewhere
[08:33] <nixternal> but you can't beat google
[08:33] <LaserJock> the user's best resource should be their own computer
[08:34] <LaserJock> ok
[08:34] <LaserJock> but here's the deal
[08:34] <nixternal> well...i can tell you from what i have seen in the kde help center..it sucks
[08:34] <nixternal> they should call it the kde info center if anything
[08:34] <LaserJock> and it will continue to suck until people care for it
[08:34] <jjesse> the kubuntu docs or the kde docs?
[08:34] <nixternal> kde docs
[08:34] <nixternal> haha
[08:34] <mdke> Burgwork: don't get it, sorry
[08:35] <LaserJock> my problem has been in the past is that the Ubuntu website is not open to us
[08:35] <mdke> definitive doesn't mean final
[08:35] <LaserJock> mdke: but many people might take it as "go here and not anywhere else"
[08:35] <mdke> well, that's the point of it, yeah
[08:36] <LaserJock> but that wiki page is not the final "go here" place
[08:37] <mdke> LaserJock: surely that's exactly what that document is intended to be
[08:37] <nixternal> webster says it can mean final, or it can be to define...but i am willing to bet, mdke is using it to define, as it is very common amongst the law types ;)
[08:37] <LaserJock> mdke: I believe it was the rough draft for andreas
[08:37] <mdke> LaserJock: he is satisfied it is finished, subject to review, which was the whole point of my blog entry
[08:38] <LaserJock> right
[08:38] <LaserJock> but we are then going to move it into the doc team repo and/or website
[08:38] <mdke> it's in the repo
[08:38] <mdke> and yes, website, assuming the webmaster agrees
[08:38] <LaserJock> so it would seem to be more of a WIP area rather than the "definitave" place to find the info
[08:38] <mdke> I said that in my blog post too
[08:39] <LaserJock> sure
[08:39] <mdke> when I say "definitive", what I mean is that the document will be a single and complete guide to how to contribute
[08:39] <LaserJock> yep
[08:39] <LaserJock> I got it, but Corey is worried that it means, "bookmark this URL as this will be the place to send people"
[08:39] <mdke> not that *that specific url* will be the single and complete guide
[08:40] <LaserJock> right
[08:40] <LaserJock> so it's not a big issue
[08:40] <mdke> of course it's not a big issue
[08:40] <Burgwork> mdke, definitive means "this is the one document, all else are to be ignored"
[08:40] <mdke> Burgwork: yes. that is what that document is
[08:40] <Burgwork> no, it is not
[08:40] <Burgwork> we have had this disagreement before
[08:40] <mdke> yes, it is. Don't get all stroppy because you like your document better
[08:41] <LaserJock> I think it *should* be
[08:41] <Burgwork> it is not that I like it better, it is because nobody has sufficiently answered my objections
[08:41] <LaserJock> as it is community maitained and has the review/participation of the various teams
[08:41] <jjesse> i'm still confused as to what these objections are
[08:41] <mdke> Burgwork: go ahead and submit some feedback about the document, the call for review is on the -doc and -sounder lists
[08:41] <Burgwork> yes, but I am also going to have to publically disagree with you on planet, because of your announcement
[08:42] <jjesse> why?
[08:42] <Burgwork> because he announced the doc as something it wasn't
[08:42] <mdke> you're overreacting to a huge degree
[08:42] <jjesse> i think you interpertued it as something other then what the announcement was
[08:42] <jjesse> man i can't spell today
[08:42] <Burgwork> mdke, no, I am not
[08:43] <mdke> that's planet, and is a good place to ask for review from community contributors, not make announcements
[08:43] <mdke> go ahead and disagree, that's what your blog is for, don't tell me that you'll have to publically disagree, as if it is something I should be scared about
[08:43] <mdke> there's no problem here
[08:44] <Burgwork> mdke, it is about solving some of these issues before we went public-ish
[08:44] <Burgwork> I very clearly raised my objections with you and lloydhino and got ignored
[08:44] <Burgwork> after I had worked on a previous document and stated I would be working on it again
[08:44] <LaserJock> Burgwork: what's is your issues?
[08:44] <Burgwork> 1. location of document
[08:44] <mdke> "public"
[08:44] <mdke> haha
[08:44] <Burgwork> 2. how this document fits into existing documents
[08:45] <Burgwork> mdke, planet is public
[08:45] <Burgwork> regardless of what you think
[08:45] <jjesse> so are the mailing list of sounder :)
[08:45] <mdke> Burgwork: so is the wiki, the mailing list, and this channel
[08:45] <mdke> all of which had discussed the document ages ago
[08:45] <Burgwork> planet is more so
[08:45] <mdke> so it's a question of degree, and I'm telling you that planet is a good place to ask for community review
[08:45] <Burgwork> 3. How indepth the specific document gets
[08:45] <mdke> new users are not going to jump on planet and misunderstand stuff
[08:45] <LaserJock> ok, 1. you want only community/participate on the website?
[08:46] <Burgwork> yes, because of what I have already mentioned
[08:46] <Burgwork> shipping a document is nuts, imho
[08:46] <LaserJock> not shipping doesn't mean it should go on the website
[08:46] <Burgwork> not, but maintaining two copies is very hard
[08:46] <LaserJock> the website is very closed
[08:46] <LaserJock> as it should be
[08:46] <Burgwork> so is the shipped documentation
[08:46] <LaserJock> not really
[08:46] <Burgwork> the website is no more closed than the shipped documents
[08:46] <LaserJock> as with all of our docs, they start as wiki pages
[08:47] <Burgwork> once they are docs, they are something different
[08:47] <LaserJock> and people have a clear place to submit patches
[08:47] <mdke> there is no question of maintaining 2 documents, we've showed how easy it is to maintain one document on the wiki, and stick it in docbook
[08:47] <mdke> it can be published easily in the distribution and on the website with no overhead
[08:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I have never once seen a patch from somebody I did not know already
[08:48] <mdke> as for shipping it - lots of ubuntu users don't know how to contribute, so it's great to have the document in their face like that. What harm is it?
[08:48] <mdke> a few KB is the only cost
[08:48] <Burgwork> 1. getting stale
[08:48] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yes, but the website is significantly more closed
[08:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, not practically
[08:49] <jjesse> who can add to the website?
[08:49] <Burgwork> what if our shipped doc disagrees with our website?
[08:49] <Burgwork> teams come and go
[08:49] <jjesse> i know i don't have access to it
[08:49] <Burgwork> jjesse, mdke and myself, others if they ask
[08:49] <Burgwork> projects come and go
[08:49] <LaserJock> ok, then lets not ship it, shipping the doc is not my point
[08:49] <Burgwork> then we are back tot he point of how much the doc contains
[08:49] <jjesse> seems like less people have access to the web then to svn 
[08:49] <LaserJock> my point is that a community doc should *not* be maintained on the website
[08:50] <jjesse> +1 lionelp
[08:50] <jjesse> doh
[08:50] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that is where they are going anyway
[08:50] <jjesse> +1 LaserJock
[08:50] <Burgwork> the website could be more open
[08:50] <nixternal> hahah
[08:50] <Burgwork> that is an issue that can be resolved
[08:50] <LaserJock> I think it is the website maintainers job to grab info from the community
[08:50] <LaserJock> the doc team should not have to maintain the website for them
[08:50] <mdke> LaserJock: it's easy to maintain the doc on the wiki, and at stable points, include it in the shipped docs and on the website
[08:50] <LaserJock> I agree
[08:51] <mdke> 6 months is not a long time
[08:51] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that is so backwards and old school
[08:51] <mdke> it won't go stale to any significant degree
[08:51] <LaserJock> Burgwork: but it is the truth
[08:51] <Burgwork> the website should also be driven by community
[08:51] <Burgwork> LaserJock, currently yes, but the fridge opened up
[08:51] <LaserJock> and until the website is driven by the community it is still an issue
[08:51] <Burgwork> mdke, 6 months is a long time. What if breezy contained such a doc?
[08:51] <Burgwork> it would not contain the art team, or the marketing team
[08:51] <mdke> Burgwork: then it would be updated for dapper
[08:51] <Burgwork> or fridge
[08:52] <mdke> the same argument applies to anything in our docs
[08:52] <Burgwork> do you see my issue? this doc is highly volitaile, by its very nature
[08:52] <Burgwork> this is more so
[08:52] <mdke> no, I don't see it
[08:52] <mdke> I think the doc is a massive asset
[08:52] <LaserJock> ok, just a sec
[08:52] <Burgwork> having it yes, where it goes is still up for discussion
[08:52] <jjesse> if the doc team thinks the way mdke proposed is the way to go would you accept Burgwork?
[08:52] <mdke> and having it on the system is very important
[08:52] <LaserJock> the doc I envision shipping is not a simple list of contact info for various teams
[08:53] <Burgwork> then what does it contain?
[08:53] <LaserJock> I want to see a doc that has what it takes to contribute to Ubuntu
[08:53] <Burgwork> beyond a list of places to contact?
[08:53] <LaserJock> to get people excited
[08:53] <Burgwork> that is one paragraph, maybe two
[08:53] <LaserJock> people need to learn about what Ubuntu development is about
[08:53] <Burgwork> and link to /community/participate
[08:53] <LaserJock> what tools we use
[08:53] <Burgwork> that would be called WhyToContribute, not How
[08:53] <mdke> Burgwork: I think this document can replace community/participate
[08:54] <mdke> obviously it would need to be structured
[08:54] <Burgwork> mdke, /community/pariticpate can never go away
[08:54] <mdke> no, but it can get better
[08:54] <Burgwork> my plan always was to move HelpingUbuntu to /community/participate
[08:54] <Burgwork> that was before this new stuff came along
[08:54] <mdke> heh
[08:55] <Burgwork> I simply ran out of time and energy
[08:55] <Burgwork> do you see why I think this is an end run?
[08:55] <mdke> the new doc is just version 2 of HelpingUbuntu
[08:55] <Burgwork> but I feel it is a regression, in a lot of ways
[08:55] <mdke> they should definitely be merged, I agree
[08:55] <mdke> Burgwork: so give feedback to the mailing list and Andreas can address those "regressions"
[08:56] <Burgwork> I already spoke with him and nothing happened
[08:56] <mdke> irc isn't a great way of giving feedback
[08:56] <Burgwork> yes, I also didn't help
[08:56] <Burgwork> but I think I spoke with him about two weeks ago
[08:56] <mdke> I remember
[08:56] <mdke> but things don't come out in a logical way on irc
[08:56] <mdke> a structured email is much better
[08:56] <LaserJock> well I personally think the doc has a long way to go
[08:56] <mdke> Andreas listens very well
[08:56] <Burgwork> no, they don't
[08:57] <mdke> they?
[08:57] <LaserJock> a doc sprint? :-)
[08:57] <Burgwork> mark suggested in the dapper cycle
[08:57] <mdke> LaserJock: same applies, you can also give feedback, right?
[08:57] <Burgwork> mdke, irc doesn't, sorry
[08:57] <LaserJock> yes, I'm working with andreas
[08:57] <LaserJock> I haven't had time to contribute a whole lot yet
[08:59] <LaserJock> ack, there are so many issues here
[08:59] <mdke> I think email is better for this, definitely
[08:59] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what becomes of the packaging guide either with all of this
[09:01] <Burgwork> sadly I have a date with a lady tonight, otherwise I would respond via email
[09:01] <LaserJock> priorities ;-)
[09:01] <Burgwork> indeed, terrible things
[09:01] <Burgwork> I will look into the larger issues tomorrow night
[09:02] <LaserJock> anway, at Ubucon I definately saw the need for a larger scale doc than just "here are the list of teams"
[09:02] <Burgwork> yes
[09:02] <LaserJock> my talk was mostly that, and I felt it wasn't very successful at all
[09:03] <nixternal> i like the idea of a brief explanation of what the team does, and then here is how you can help....but there definitely needs to be something that gets a user interested in the first place
[09:03] <LaserJock> people need to learn "how" to contribute not just "where"
[09:03] <nixternal> and it ineeds to be seperrated, at least in terms of Kubuntu, the "Help" section
[09:03] <crimsun> that's an NP-complete problem.
[09:03] <LaserJock> and for some of that the teams themselves are definatley the place for that
[09:04] <LaserJock> but there are many things people need to learn before they even get to the teams
[09:04] <Burgwork> that would be a Why doc, almost
[09:04] <LaserJock> more than just why
[09:04] <nixternal> maybe there should be a breakdown as well, as maybe a new user doesn't want to read "How to Contribute to development" when he/she can barely use theis new system
[09:04] <crimsun> First you have to convince people that philanthropy is worth their while; posterity is more important than "can I go and play football now"
[09:04] <nixternal> good point crimsun
[09:04] <LaserJock> I see this a raising the "Ubuntu IQ" of the user population
[09:05] <LaserJock> but maybe that is too ambitious
[09:05] <nixternal> ahhh, i kind of like that analogy as well
[09:05] <nixternal> well, i truthfully think that ambition is warranted though, especially with a young doc as this
[09:05] <crimsun> Once you've made it clear that Ubuntu succeeds because its _potential_ userbase becomes more involved, then you can begin to describe how to more effectively worth within this social network
[09:05] <LaserJock> right
[09:06] <crimsun> s/worth/work/
[09:06] <LaserJock> and these things are why I just don't see it working well on a single webpage
[09:06] <LaserJock> but I'm not a real doc person or webmaster or anything
[09:06] <nixternal> Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How
[09:06] <LaserJock> so I really have to defer to the more knowledgable here
[09:07] <nixternal> just restructure it
[09:07] <nixternal> when isn't necessary, as it is now, and forever really
[09:08] <nixternal> Why will get the people interested...Who will let "EVERYONE" know they are wanted by the community...What and How will work together to show the type of work and maybe how it is carried out...Where will definitely be the contact info
[09:08] <LaserJock> the thing is I can really see a doc that is rather large and perhaps it is better done on the wiki
[09:09] <nixternal> ya, i can see it becoming something like the packaging guide the more i think of it..and truthfully, for something like this, i don't think it would be the best
[09:09] <Burgwork> the initial doc shouldn't be easily editable, due to issues with public facing
[09:09] <Burgwork> but the subsequent docs should most definitively be ont eh wiki
[09:09] <LaserJock> yeah
[09:09] <nixternal> it needs to be small in nature and to the point..otherwise you have to flip through 40 pages just to find something you might like
[09:10] <LaserJock> I guess what I'm looking at is documentation on the Ubuntu community :-)
[09:10] <LaserJock> and maybe we just shouldn't bother documenting something like that
[09:10] <Burgwork> nixternal, precisely my concern
[09:11] <nixternal> yes Burgwork, i can see it now that i have sat back and thought about it more
[09:11] <LaserJock> ah, well I think that is sort of differnt
[09:11] <LaserJock> I hadn't really envisioned a linear doc like the packaging guide
[09:11] <nixternal> i can see an initial page or the opportunities, that link to further info
[09:12] <LaserJock> but you guys are still talking about teams, no?
[09:12] <mdke> nixternal: documents can be structured so that this isn't a problem, with subsections
[09:12] <nixternal> me either LaserJock, until i thought about how complicated it could become
[09:12] <LaserJock> I'm not concerned with teams
[09:12] <nixternal> mdke: i realize that, and thats what pushes me for it...i have to say..right now im 50/50 on it
[09:12] <nixternal> it has, to me, an even about of good and bad with it
[09:13] <nixternal> of course, i will keep an open mind to it, and hopefully be persuaded to one side more than the other so i can at least give valuable feedback concerning the issue
[09:13] <LaserJock> the thing for me is that "How to contribute" != "Here is a list of teams"
[09:13] <LaserJock> which is what all the current docs seem to do more-or-less
[09:13] <nixternal> +1 LaserJock
[09:14] <LaserJock> the teams are pretty easy to discover on the wiki or on LP, etc.
[09:14] <LaserJock> and we *should* have a listing somewhere
[09:14] <Burgwork> LaserJock, easy to discover yes, easy to find out what they do, no
[09:14] <mdke> anyway, it's nice to talk about this by email, where Andreas can comment
[09:14] <LaserJock> Burgwork: sort of, you can always ask a team what they do ;-)
[09:14] <Burgwork> that doesn't always work
[09:15] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not saying we ditch that info
[09:15] <nixternal> here is something i envision...1 page that lists "generic" help for the community (wiki, docs, marketing, etc.)..then there is a distro specific docs for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu and how you can help each one of those
[09:15] <LaserJock> heh, well I'm pretty opposed to flavor specific docs
[09:15] <nixternal> this would work if each community w/in the major would contribute as well though
[09:15] <LaserJock> but it might work
[09:16] <nixternal> well, there are Kubuntu contributors that really don't want to or aren't interested with Ubuntu or the others
[09:16] <LaserJock> it shouldn't matter
[09:16] <LaserJock> really
[09:16] <nixternal> i know, most of us here, are hardcore junkies and we will contribute where needed
[09:16] <nixternal> but there are those who love their distro/de more than the other and don't care about the other actually
[09:16] <LaserJock> fine
[09:17] <LaserJock> but I really don't see how it matters
[09:17] <LaserJock> artwork is artwork
[09:17] <LaserJock> if you want to do Kubuntu artwork fine
[09:17] <LaserJock> but it's still artwork
[09:18] <LaserJock> I think splitting things by flavor is, in general, to be avoided
[09:18] <LaserJock> we are a part of an Ubuntu community
[09:18] <LaserJock> but that's just my opinion
[09:18] <LaserJock> as I really see the flavors as just different default apps
[09:18] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is Ubuntu :-)
[09:22] <nixternal> true
[09:23] <nixternal> sorry...phone call
[09:23] <LaserJock> anyway, I should shut up as I doubt I will have time to work a great deal on this beautiful doc :-)
[09:23] <Burgwork> http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9835380873.html <-- go vote
[09:23] <nixternal> you know what..your opinion persuaded me that my idea had a flaws...the only thing i can see being distro specific would be
[09:23] <nixternal> packaging, development
[09:24] <nixternal> artwork however can go with packaging and development in a way...as there are already 2 different AICs, 1 for Kubuntu and 1 for Ubuntu
[09:24] <LaserJock> for sure we can list flavor specific teams
[09:24] <LaserJock> but I would rather do it within the larger team
[09:24] <nixternal> there really aren't though...except from a development perspective
[09:25] <LaserJock> 3 AICs ;-)
[09:25] <nixternal> heh...i think i need to see some pretty pictures ;)
[09:25] <nixternal> 3?
[09:25] <LaserJock> but the all work through the art team
[09:25] <nixternal> xubuntu got one?
[09:25] <LaserJock> Edubuntu
[09:25] <nixternal> who?
[09:25] <LaserJock> AliasVegas is her name
[09:25] <nixternal> doh...nm..i remember i wrote about her in the UWN ;)
[09:25] <nixternal> to late
[09:26] <nixternal> hehe
[09:26] <LaserJock> heh, AliasVegas is her nick
[09:26] <LaserJock> nick, name, all the same
[09:26] <LaserJock> ;-)
[09:26] <nixternal> ya, i only refer to you as Jordan Mantha on a professional basis...irc is far from professional ;)
[09:27] <LaserJock> I don't even refer to myself as Jordan Mantha anymore
[09:27] <LaserJock> ;-)
[09:27] <nixternal> it would be nice to have a sweet doc portal that everything in the world could tie into
[09:28] <Burgwork> it is gcalled google
[09:28] <LaserJock> bah
[09:28] <nixternal> i was waiting for that
[09:28] <nixternal> haha
[09:28] <LaserJock> google is no good
[09:28] <nixternal> he is right, but we can't count on google
[09:28] <LaserJock> I hate google for that sort of thing
[09:28] <poningru> rofl
[09:28] <LaserJock> google is very inefficent for doc purposes
[09:29] <poningru> I dont know...
[09:29] <LaserJock> it kinda works in a "Spray and Pray" kind of method
[09:29] <LaserJock> you have no judgment of reliability
[09:29] <LaserJock> or applicability
[09:29] <LaserJock> which is really bad for documentation, IMO
[09:29] <nixternal> sounds like the gangsters here in chicago...spray and pray, or depending on where in the gutter your mind is...bad analogy
[09:30] <LaserJock> nixternal: well, in Montana it's a hunting term ;-)
[09:30] <nixternal> lol
[09:30] <poningru> ...
[09:30] <LaserJock> nixternal: some people just can't shoot straight
[09:30] <nixternal> here in chicago as well...you just hunt something different that game
[09:30] <LaserJock> heh
[09:30] <nixternal> s/that/than
[09:30] <LaserJock> mdke: thanks for the bug email :-)
[09:30] <nixternal> lol
[09:31] <poningru> too bad for the coc :(
[09:31] <LaserJock> nah, I'm glad we have coc around
[09:31] <nixternal> i know where you were going im sure
[09:32] <LaserJock> there might be young kids like nixternal around ;-)
[09:32] <nixternal> haha
[09:32] <nixternal> im only 12 i tell ya
[09:33] <mdke> LaserJock: plenty more when that came from
[09:34] <crimsun> 12 with kids, eh?
[09:35] <LaserJock> crimsun: my wife works with teen moms. 12 is definately not unheard of
[09:35] <crimsun> LaserJock: I tutor kids around that age who have children, yes, I know. But 12 with kids _and_ free time to engage in irc conversations? That's definitely a corner case.
[09:36] <poningru> nixternal does it using his time portals
[09:36] <LaserJock> true tru, you got me there crimsun ;-)
[09:36] <nixternal> haha
[09:36] <poningru> he creates them using the spray and pray method
[09:37] <nixternal> oh...my physical age is 32...my mental or psychological age is 12
[09:37] <nixternal> ask my shrink...he can tell you more than i can about that ;)
[09:37] <poningru> ooh thats a much better explanation than mine
[09:38] <nixternal> Dr. Whoflungit 888.555.5837
[09:38] <nixternal> that would be +1 for those of you not imprisoned in the US
[09:38] <nixternal> and for those of you imprisoned as well
[09:45] <nixternal> ok, back on topic here...so this contributing documentation...is there ever going to be "one" solution that will work?
[09:46] <nixternal> heh, i dont' have anywhere to start with that one that...except for the simple question...if anyone can provide more then i would recommend they do it ;)
[09:46] <LaserJock> mdke: hehe, don't worry
[09:46] <mdke> it's just that Andreas isn't here, so email is much better
[09:46] <LaserJock> I just needed some brainstorming before the email ;-)
[09:47] <nixternal> oh no mdke, im not talking about Andreas' work at all...im talking from a simple doc standpoint...is there a "one stop shop" that will work that won't be to much or to little
[09:47] <LaserJock> nixternal: I personally think you can present different facets to do that
[09:47] <nixternal> like LaserJock, brainstorming before something larger is contstructed
[09:47] <mdke> I feel that documents can always be structured so as to work as "one stop shops" :)
[09:48] <mdke> if they are rigorously structured enough
[09:48] <nixternal> w/o a doubt...getting there is going to be the fun part from what i can tell
[09:52] <mdke> that's why we're here right?
[09:52] <LaserJock> I thought it was for the ponies
[09:52] <LaserJock> :-)
[10:31] <nixternal> hehe
[10:32] <nixternal> 40 minutes later ;)  replying to Andreas' post was not fun...that was a lot of reading there...very good doco to start with thought
[10:32] <nixternal> s/thought/though
[10:46] <poningru> hey guys in rhythmbox help it claims that daap discovery works out of the box
[10:46] <poningru> but it depends on avahi-daemon
[10:47] <mdke> Ubuntu isn't shipping that, right? We could patch the help, if that's a distro deviation
[10:48] <poningru> right
[10:48] <poningru> well not sure though
[10:48] <mdke> can you file a bug on rhythmbox, or whatever package provides the help
[10:48] <poningru> the big discussion on devel
[10:49] <poningru> said that we are going to ship with it right?
[10:49] <poningru> wait I think it was you
[10:49] <poningru> err maybe garrett
[10:49] <poningru> not sure
[10:49] <mdke> I didn't follow that discussion much
[10:51] <LaserJock> I think we are shipping avahi but it will not be turned on by default
[10:52] <poningru> hmm what about the interim though
[10:53] <LaserJock> what interim?
[10:54] <poningru> as in for edgy before they have it installed...
[10:54] <poningru> nm stupid question
[10:54] <poningru> its a dev branch so it doesnt matter...
[11:26] <mhz> hi guys, soory in advance, in case i experience lag (as usual for last week)
[11:26] <mhz> I have wikied
[11:27] <mhz> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToFluxboxStyles
[11:27] <mhz> and was wondering, if that can be linked from the fluxbox page at help.
[11:57] <poningru> mdke: malone wont let me file the bug
[11:57] <poningru> it says : To report a bug about Rhythmbox, please use its official bug tracker.
[11:59] <LaserJock> poningru: what url are you using?
[11:59] <poningru> https://launchpad.net/products/rhythmbox/+filebug
[12:00] <poningru> this has never happend to me before
[12:00] <poningru> gaah what did lp people do???
[12:01] <nixternal> rythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker
[12:01] <nixternal> always has i believe
[12:02] <nixternal> poningru: 
[12:02] <poningru> LaserJock: did it work for you?
[12:02] <nixternal> [17:01:50]  <nixternal> rythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker
[12:02] <nixternal> [17:01:54]  <nixternal> always has i believe
[12:02] <LaserJock> poningru: you don't want /products/
[12:03] <poningru> oh
[12:03] <nixternal> ooh..i just noticed the products ;)
[12:03] <LaserJock> you want http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug
[12:03] <LaserJock> I think
[12:03] <poningru> oh ok cool
[12:04] <nixternal> No packages matching 'rythmbox' are published in Ubuntu
[12:04] <nixternal> nope, use gnome bug tracker
[12:04] <LaserJock> rhythmbox
[12:04] <poningru> rhythmbox :p
[12:04] <LaserJock> guys, every package in Ubuntu is in Malone
[12:04] <nixternal> heh
[12:04] <nixternal> maybe if i spell it right ;)
[12:05] <nixternal> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox/+filebug
[12:07] <poningru> :) thanks