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PingunZHey all, I bought a camera yesterday :) Soon I'll shoot the wallpapers of ubuntu ( lol )04:18
msikmaWhy is it that art-related discussion revolving some of the important aspects of the design (e.g. the GTK theme) stop so quickly and often?04:33
msikmaMark sent me some criticism via the list and I responded to it. One point he brought up contradicted something he said earlier and it would be nice to have some clarity on it.04:34
PingunZhmm.. ask it again ?04:35
PingunZ( stupid answer sorry ;) )04:36
msikmaI mailed him back. Don't know what else I can do.04:37
PingunZI'm new to this, but AFAIK mail is the only thing we have.04:38
PingunZand this *dead* irc channel04:38
PingunZsorry if I offend anyone with that :)04:38
msikmaI hate the process of this thing. We should just switch to, for example, MediaWiki software to do the bulk of the discussion and the archiving of material.04:38
PingunZmsikma: have you read my proposal ?04:39
PingunZA forum ..04:39
PingunZI'll see if I can find the mail04:39
msikmaJust switching to _any_ wiki that does not use a stupid flat file database would be nice though!04:39
msikmaI would like a forum, too.04:39
msikmaJust anything is better than moinsmoins or whatever it's called.04:39
PingunZfrank liked the idea, but he appears to have forgotten it :)04:40
PingunZwell as a beginner I can tell you, It's kinda hard to know where to start :)04:40
PingunZmsikma: I sent you the mail ;)04:41
msikmaI still don't know much about Launchpad and all that.04:41
msikmaIt would be so much better if we were to simply focus more on the artwork. I think there is way too little discussion about actual art going on.04:41
PingunZIts just a concept, ...04:42
msikmaI think that a forum can't replace _everything_ in the artwork cycle, such as Launchpad, but it would certainly be very useful to look up things this way.04:43
msikmaLike where certain artwork proposals are.04:43
msikmaAnd you don't usually delete stuff on a forum, whereas a lot of stuff was deleted from the wiki (to KEEP IT CLEAN or some nonsense like that), resulting in me reading my backlogs and finding that almost none of the mentioned wiki pages still existed.04:43
PingunZtrue msikma, a forum is also more user-friendly04:44
msikmaI don't think people will work harder just because they're on a forum, though.04:44
PingunZmsikma: they dont have to work harder, the work is there. Its just not organised04:44
PingunZalso a forum is waaay more attractive to new users then a wiki04:45
msikmaI feel that the reorganization of Ubuntu artwork production, which started with this cycle, has caused a gigantic amount of unnecessary red tape.04:45
PingunZand the ' Karma ' does something :)04:45
msikmaKarma is probably the most worthless and elitist thing ever invented for forums, I'd say.04:45
PingunZmsikma: I like it, it makes you act as friendly as possible. Makes you work harder :)04:46
msikmaIt also makes people suck up a lot more. I've made probably around 30000 posts on various forums throughout the years and have almost always loathed it.04:47
PingunZloathed == ?04:47
PingunZMy english is kinda bad :)04:48
PingunZI'll modify the idea a little, now that I have more experience..04:48
PingunZbut IMO ubuntu needs a re-organistion. A lot of great work is done on ubuntuforums but the devs are not active there.04:49
msikmaLoathed == verafschuwd04:49
msikmaYeah, we just went through a reorganization :)04:49
msikmaAt the beginning of this cycle.04:49
PingunZI'm really sure more people would like to help with artwork but its just to confusing for beginners04:49
msikmaBut I'd say that the ones who structured this reorganization were so afraid of things going wrong that they made the whole thing _too_ organized.04:50
PingunZDo you mean this is organised ?04:50
msikmaIt's not just confusing for beginners. It's confusing for me too, and I've been here for some time now. I just want to make artwork because I feel the current artwork is not good enough for a contending operating system.04:50
msikmaI don't want to have to learn how to use complicated content management systems.04:50
PingunZthat's not really organised IMO :)04:51
msikmaPingunZ: it's organized alright, just not organized properly. It's organized only to those who fully understand how everything works. And not enough weight is being put on a failsafe method of communication: the mailing list.04:51
msikmaIt shows when Mark commentates on artwork (and if he says no to artwork, it means the artwork isn't getting in no matter who else complains), and then the artist mails him back stating that his criticism is slightly vague and comes up with counterarguments, but then doesn't get a response to that, that the mailing list isn't being monitored enough.04:52
msikmaIt's just all terribly confusing.04:52
msikmaI don't know. Maybe I'm at fault here and everyone else is doing fine.04:52
PingunZmsikma: there is the mailing list, wiki, launchpad. I dont really think that any beginner would think that is organised. Seriously, when Frank asked me to join I didn'twant to because of the mails I'd get ( not knowing what to do with them )04:53
msikmaWell, in some way, it is very organized.04:54
msikmaBut organization doesn't mean efficiency.04:54
PingunZI'm going to send the Forum Idea ( once its modified ) to the whole mailing list ( if that is allowed ). And see if people like it :)04:54
msikmaLike I said, I think there's just too much red tape (paperwork) involved for anyone to want to deal with.04:54
PingunZtrue :)04:54
PingunZUbuntu-art is not efficient, I think everone agrees on that...04:55
PingunZ* or could be more efficient04:55
PingunZI'll make a whole text with some plans tonight :)04:56
PingunZand once I see fschoep here again, I'll ping him about it ;)04:56
msikmaThere are just way too many low-level rules that make conducting affairs slower and more difficult. There are too many people involved in the tiniest of things. I don't really believe in the editing of other people's source art.04:56
msikmaI most certainly don't believe in non-artists discussing artwork, too, but I guess that's really inevitable.04:57
PingunZnon-artist --> normal ubuntu users, should discuss artwork too since they are the one who use it.04:58
PingunZBut I dont know if they should discuss it in the same place then the artists04:58
msikmaThey can have a lot of useful information about what is usable, but generally, they don't really know what looks good unless they themselves become actively involved in the art making process.04:58
msikmaI'd say that these days, too many people who just got [GIMP/Photoshop/other graphics manipulation program]  think they are a designer. They aren't. But still everybody has an opinion.04:59
PingunZwell msikma I'm not a real designer myself.. :)05:00
msikmaI don't have anything to say about the process. But if I did: less middle management, less low-level rules, more discussion, more direction, more polish. Less concept.05:00
msikmaBut you're interested in artwork, PingunZ. That sets you apart from most of the people I'm talking about who toss two or three filters over a photo they made and then call it artwork.05:01
msikmaLike, there's a certain kind of arrogance that I personally associate with those people.05:01
PingunZthat's true msikma :)05:01
PingunZtrue again msikma05:01
msikmaWhereas you're just interested in artwork and surely won't be the worst contributor.05:01
msikmaI don't know. Maybe I'm just ranting too much.05:02
PingunZbah, atm I have just created a gdm based on Who's mockups05:02
msikmaI'm working on the GTK because of Mark's criticism.05:03
msikmaHe had some valid criticism, but I didn't agree with some other stuff he said.05:03
PingunZWho should I mail about the forum-idea ?05:03
msikmaLike, he first says that he feels it "isn't saturated enough". Which is completely untrue, seen as how the saturation is way higher than the old theme. Then later he mails how he feels the colors are "too deep". That's contradictory to what he said earlier about saturation. I don't really get it.05:03
msikmaThe list, I guess.05:04
PingunZmsikma: I dont want to mail the whole list about such idea ..05:04
PingunZIt first needs to be revised by a few ppl05:05
msikmaI don't know who should revise it.05:05
PingunZok ..05:07
PingunZWell I'll start with modifying the text I sent to you ..05:08
msikmaMan. What to do with those scroll bars.05:14
PingunZWhere msikma ?05:22
msikmaI mean scroll bars in the GTK theme.05:35
msikmaMark doesn't want me to use orange there. I don't really like it myself, either, and thus I must try to find another way out.05:35
msikmaI don't agree with Mark saying we shouldn't use orange for the grippies, though. It's an accent color alright, but that does mean we need to use it consistently.05:35
PingunZwhat are gripppies ?05:36
msikmaBy the way, did you check out this site yet? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/05:36
msikmaThe slider bars.05:36
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PingunZwhat is on that site msikma ?05:37
PingunZand where can I see the GTK you made ?05:37
msikmaIt's the most complete graphical user interface documentation site that I've found so far.05:37
msikmaIt shows lots of screenshots from many different operating systems throughout the years.05:38
msikmaIt's a nicely organized site, too.05:38
msikmaAlso, here's my GTK as it is right now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming05:39
PingunZbah windows icons :p05:40
msikmaWindows icons?05:41
PingunZyes, on that site05:41
msikmaWell, whatever.05:41
msikmaThere's a lot of useful things on that site.05:42
PingunZmsikma: I've seen your GTK theme before05:42
PingunZShall I tell you what I dislike about it ?05:42
PingunZand like :)05:42
PingunZor should I put it in a mail ?05:42
msikmaYeah, feel free to.05:45
PingunZhere or in a mail ?05:47
PingunZbrb trying to take a pic05:47
msikmaIn a mail, preferably, or on IRC here. Either will do fine.05:48
msikmaActually, just do it in IRC. Then we can discuss it easier.05:49
PingunZok :)05:49
PingunZI'll pm, so I can say it in dutch ;)05:49
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PingunZhey msikma08:46
msikmaI made some slider bar changes08:46
PingunZshow me :)08:46
PingunZhmm :)08:48
PingunZits better but could be better :D08:48
PingunZI think the resuly would improve if you made the dots on the bars a little more visible08:49
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troy_sgreetings all.08:53
PingunZbye troy_s08:53
troy_stoodles pingunz.08:54
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troy_sGreetings Burgundavia08:57
msikmaLike this then08:57
msikmaI still think the full orange ones are better. And more consistent.08:58
msikmaBut I guess that if Mark says so, I probably have a better chance of getting it accepted this way.08:58
troy_sGood stuff there sik.08:58
troy_sI think the round radius isn't consistent with the existing roundness in the icons etc though... perhaps lessen the degree a bit?09:00
msikmaI don't really think that the rounding of widgets in the GTK theme pertains to any rounding in the icons.09:01
troy_sWow.  Strange.09:02
msikmaYeah, strange that I would think so, eh.09:02
troy_sIt would seem that consistency is based around a coherance of systems, no?09:03
msikmaI could try arguing with you but it is no use so I'm just gonna continue working.09:03
troy_sI am not arguing... you are just very reactionary to me and I apologize for that.09:03
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