[01:05] <Mjateznik> Hi
[04:18] <PingunZ> Hey all, I bought a camera yesterday :) Soon I'll shoot the wallpapers of ubuntu ( lol )
[04:33] <msikma> Why is it that art-related discussion revolving some of the important aspects of the design (e.g. the GTK theme) stop so quickly and often?
[04:34] <msikma> Mark sent me some criticism via the list and I responded to it. One point he brought up contradicted something he said earlier and it would be nice to have some clarity on it.
[04:35] <PingunZ> hmm.. ask it again ?
[04:36] <PingunZ> ( stupid answer sorry ;) )
[04:37] <msikma> I mailed him back. Don't know what else I can do.
[04:38] <PingunZ> I'm new to this, but AFAIK mail is the only thing we have.
[04:38] <PingunZ> and this *dead* irc channel
[04:38] <PingunZ> sorry if I offend anyone with that :)
[04:38] <msikma> I hate the process of this thing. We should just switch to, for example, MediaWiki software to do the bulk of the discussion and the archiving of material.
[04:39] <PingunZ> msikma: have you read my proposal ?
[04:39] <msikma> Nope.
[04:39] <PingunZ> A forum ..
[04:39] <PingunZ> I'll see if I can find the mail
[04:39] <msikma> Just switching to _any_ wiki that does not use a stupid flat file database would be nice though!
[04:39] <msikma> I would like a forum, too.
[04:39] <msikma> Just anything is better than moinsmoins or whatever it's called.
[04:40] <PingunZ> frank liked the idea, but he appears to have forgotten it :)
[04:40] <PingunZ> well as a beginner I can tell you, It's kinda hard to know where to start :)
[04:41] <PingunZ> msikma: I sent you the mail ;)
[04:41] <msikma> I still don't know much about Launchpad and all that.
[04:41] <msikma> It would be so much better if we were to simply focus more on the artwork. I think there is way too little discussion about actual art going on.
[04:42] <PingunZ> Its just a concept, ...
[04:43] <msikma> I think that a forum can't replace _everything_ in the artwork cycle, such as Launchpad, but it would certainly be very useful to look up things this way.
[04:43] <msikma> Like where certain artwork proposals are.
[04:43] <msikma> And you don't usually delete stuff on a forum, whereas a lot of stuff was deleted from the wiki (to KEEP IT CLEAN or some nonsense like that), resulting in me reading my backlogs and finding that almost none of the mentioned wiki pages still existed.
[04:44] <PingunZ> true msikma, a forum is also more user-friendly
[04:44] <msikma> I don't think people will work harder just because they're on a forum, though.
[04:44] <PingunZ> msikma: they dont have to work harder, the work is there. Its just not organised
[04:45] <PingunZ> also a forum is waaay more attractive to new users then a wiki
[04:45] <msikma> I feel that the reorganization of Ubuntu artwork production, which started with this cycle, has caused a gigantic amount of unnecessary red tape.
[04:45] <PingunZ> and the ' Karma ' does something :)
[04:45] <msikma> Karma is probably the most worthless and elitist thing ever invented for forums, I'd say.
[04:46] <PingunZ> msikma: I like it, it makes you act as friendly as possible. Makes you work harder :)
[04:47] <msikma> It also makes people suck up a lot more. I've made probably around 30000 posts on various forums throughout the years and have almost always loathed it.
[04:47] <PingunZ> loathed == ?
[04:48] <PingunZ> My english is kinda bad :)
[04:48] <PingunZ> I'll modify the idea a little, now that I have more experience..
[04:49] <PingunZ> but IMO ubuntu needs a re-organistion. A lot of great work is done on ubuntuforums but the devs are not active there.
[04:49] <msikma> Loathed == verafschuwd
[04:49] <msikma> Yeah, we just went through a reorganization :)
[04:49] <msikma> At the beginning of this cycle.
[04:49] <PingunZ> I'm really sure more people would like to help with artwork but its just to confusing for beginners
[04:50] <msikma> But I'd say that the ones who structured this reorganization were so afraid of things going wrong that they made the whole thing _too_ organized.
[04:50] <PingunZ> Do you mean this is organised ?
[04:50] <msikma> It's not just confusing for beginners. It's confusing for me too, and I've been here for some time now. I just want to make artwork because I feel the current artwork is not good enough for a contending operating system.
[04:50] <msikma> I don't want to have to learn how to use complicated content management systems.
[04:51] <PingunZ> that's not really organised IMO :)
[04:51] <msikma> PingunZ: it's organized alright, just not organized properly. It's organized only to those who fully understand how everything works. And not enough weight is being put on a failsafe method of communication: the mailing list.
[04:52] <msikma> It shows when Mark commentates on artwork (and if he says no to artwork, it means the artwork isn't getting in no matter who else complains), and then the artist mails him back stating that his criticism is slightly vague and comes up with counterarguments, but then doesn't get a response to that, that the mailing list isn't being monitored enough.
[04:52] <msikma> It's just all terribly confusing.
[04:52] <msikma> I don't know. Maybe I'm at fault here and everyone else is doing fine.
[04:53] <PingunZ> msikma: there is the mailing list, wiki, launchpad. I dont really think that any beginner would think that is organised. Seriously, when Frank asked me to join I didn'twant to because of the mails I'd get ( not knowing what to do with them )
[04:54] <msikma> Well, in some way, it is very organized.
[04:54] <msikma> But organization doesn't mean efficiency.
[04:54] <PingunZ> I'm going to send the Forum Idea ( once its modified ) to the whole mailing list ( if that is allowed ). And see if people like it :)
[04:54] <msikma> Like I said, I think there's just too much red tape (paperwork) involved for anyone to want to deal with.
[04:54] <PingunZ> true :)
[04:55] <PingunZ> Ubuntu-art is not efficient, I think everone agrees on that...
[04:55] <PingunZ> * or could be more efficient
[04:56] <PingunZ> I'll make a whole text with some plans tonight :)
[04:56] <PingunZ> and once I see fschoep here again, I'll ping him about it ;)
[04:56] <msikma> There are just way too many low-level rules that make conducting affairs slower and more difficult. There are too many people involved in the tiniest of things. I don't really believe in the editing of other people's source art.
[04:57] <msikma> I most certainly don't believe in non-artists discussing artwork, too, but I guess that's really inevitable.
[04:58] <PingunZ> non-artist --> normal ubuntu users, should discuss artwork too since they are the one who use it.
[04:58] <PingunZ> But I dont know if they should discuss it in the same place then the artists
[04:58] <msikma> They can have a lot of useful information about what is usable, but generally, they don't really know what looks good unless they themselves become actively involved in the art making process.
[04:59] <msikma> I'd say that these days, too many people who just got [GIMP/Photoshop/other graphics manipulation program]  think they are a designer. They aren't. But still everybody has an opinion.
[05:00] <PingunZ> well msikma I'm not a real designer myself.. :)
[05:00] <msikma> I don't have anything to say about the process. But if I did: less middle management, less low-level rules, more discussion, more direction, more polish. Less concept.
[05:01] <msikma> But you're interested in artwork, PingunZ. That sets you apart from most of the people I'm talking about who toss two or three filters over a photo they made and then call it artwork.
[05:01] <msikma> Like, there's a certain kind of arrogance that I personally associate with those people.
[05:01] <PingunZ> that's true msikma :)
[05:01] <PingunZ> true again msikma
[05:01] <msikma> Whereas you're just interested in artwork and surely won't be the worst contributor.
[05:02] <msikma> I don't know. Maybe I'm just ranting too much.
[05:02] <PingunZ> bah, atm I have just created a gdm based on Who's mockups
[05:03] <msikma> I'm working on the GTK because of Mark's criticism.
[05:03] <msikma> He had some valid criticism, but I didn't agree with some other stuff he said.
[05:03] <PingunZ> Who should I mail about the forum-idea ?
[05:03] <msikma> Like, he first says that he feels it "isn't saturated enough". Which is completely untrue, seen as how the saturation is way higher than the old theme. Then later he mails how he feels the colors are "too deep". That's contradictory to what he said earlier about saturation. I don't really get it.
[05:04] <msikma> The list, I guess.
[05:04] <PingunZ> msikma: I dont want to mail the whole list about such idea ..
[05:05] <PingunZ> It first needs to be revised by a few ppl
[05:05] <msikma> I don't know who should revise it.
[05:07] <PingunZ> ok ..
[05:08] <PingunZ> Well I'll start with modifying the text I sent to you ..
[05:14] <msikma> Man. What to do with those scroll bars.
[05:22] <PingunZ> Where msikma ?
[05:35] <msikma> Hi
[05:35] <msikma> I mean scroll bars in the GTK theme.
[05:35] <msikma> Mark doesn't want me to use orange there. I don't really like it myself, either, and thus I must try to find another way out.
[05:35] <msikma> I don't agree with Mark saying we shouldn't use orange for the grippies, though. It's an accent color alright, but that does mean we need to use it consistently.
[05:36] <PingunZ> what are gripppies ?
[05:36] <msikma> By the way, did you check out this site yet? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/
[05:36] <msikma> The slider bars.
[05:37] <PingunZ> what is on that site msikma ?
[05:37] <PingunZ> and where can I see the GTK you made ?
[05:37] <msikma> It's the most complete graphical user interface documentation site that I've found so far.
[05:38] <msikma> It shows lots of screenshots from many different operating systems throughout the years.
[05:38] <msikma> It's a nicely organized site, too.
[05:39] <msikma> Also, here's my GTK as it is right now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming
[05:40] <PingunZ> bah windows icons :p
[05:41] <msikma> Windows icons?
[05:41] <PingunZ> yes, on that site
[05:41] <msikma> Well, whatever.
[05:42] <msikma> There's a lot of useful things on that site.
[05:42] <PingunZ> msikma: I've seen your GTK theme before
[05:42] <PingunZ> Shall I tell you what I dislike about it ?
[05:42] <PingunZ> and like :)
[05:42] <PingunZ> or should I put it in a mail ?
[05:45] <msikma> Yeah, feel free to.
[05:47] <PingunZ> here or in a mail ?
[05:47] <PingunZ> brb trying to take a pic
[05:48] <msikma> In a mail, preferably, or on IRC here. Either will do fine.
[05:49] <msikma> Actually, just do it in IRC. Then we can discuss it easier.
[05:49] <PingunZ> ok :)
[05:49] <PingunZ> I'll pm, so I can say it in dutch ;)
[08:46] <msikma> asdf
[08:46] <PingunZ> hey msikma
[08:46] <msikma> Hi
[08:46] <msikma> I made some slider bar changes
[08:46] <PingunZ> show me :)
[08:47] <msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/slider_test.png
[08:48] <PingunZ> hmm :)
[08:48] <PingunZ> its better but could be better :D
[08:49] <PingunZ> I think the resuly would improve if you made the dots on the bars a little more visible
[08:53] <troy_s> greetings all.
[08:53] <PingunZ> bye troy_s
[08:54] <troy_s> toodles pingunz.
[08:54] <PingunZ> :)
[08:57] <troy_s> Greetings Burgundavia
[08:57] <msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/slider_test_1.png
[08:57] <msikma> Like this then
[08:58] <msikma> I still think the full orange ones are better. And more consistent.
[08:58] <msikma> But I guess that if Mark says so, I probably have a better chance of getting it accepted this way.
[08:58] <troy_s> Good stuff there sik.
[09:00] <troy_s> I think the round radius isn't consistent with the existing roundness in the icons etc though... perhaps lessen the degree a bit?
[09:01] <msikma> Icons?
[09:01] <msikma> I don't really think that the rounding of widgets in the GTK theme pertains to any rounding in the icons.
[09:02] <troy_s> Wow.  Strange.
[09:02] <msikma> Yeah, strange that I would think so, eh.
[09:03] <troy_s> It would seem that consistency is based around a coherance of systems, no?
[09:03] <msikma> I could try arguing with you but it is no use so I'm just gonna continue working.
[09:03] <troy_s> I am not arguing... you are just very reactionary to me and I apologize for that.