/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/08/28/#ubuntu-devel.txt

KeybukKamion: how was your trip home?12:08
desrtKamion; nobody really uses openoffice, ...12:08
KamionKeybuk: uneventful12:09
LaserJockor that firefox thing ;-)12:09
Kamion(just how I like it)12:09
desrtapt-get install epiphany-browser, baby12:09
KeybukKamion: those foomatic ppds people claim aren't used?12:09
Kamionpeople suggesting things that won't happen, please don't bother - I'm serious here12:09
Kamionfoomatic> hmm, would like opinion from printing gurus before doing that12:10
desrtanything you remove will step on at least one or two toes12:10
KeybukKamion: we ship several different gnome icon themes12:10
Kamiondesrt: not if I remove the stuff that was only just added12:10
Kamionand honestly, I'm not that bothered about toes, but removing openoffice and firefox would step on sabdfl's toes and I like my job12:11
desrtKamion; then you step on recently placed toes.  those hurt a lot.12:11
Kamiondesrt: *shrug*12:11
desrt:)12:11
Kamionchanges introducing breakage can and should be reverted12:11
sivangKamion: hehe12:11
Kamionbut I'd like to know if the people who committed those changes have any suggestions12:11
Kamionfonts are a distant possibility, but that's a tricky one too12:12
desrtright.  so y'all ship dejavu these days, right?12:12
desrtdoesn't that, in theory, mean that you shouldn't be shipping all of the various codeset-specific fonts....12:12
=== desrt blogged about the pain caused by this the other day
crimsunKamion: perhaps a few ttf- packages? For instance, I see ttf-bitstream-vera and ttf-dejavu for ubuntu-desktop.12:13
crimsunarg, too late.12:13
sivangspeaking of fonts, I wonder if that caused emacs21 to have such ugly fonts be default...12:13
desrtcrimsun; dejavu should stay12:13
Kamionit's stuff like ttf-kochi-* that's the real hugeness, but removing those would regress Japanese support12:13
Kamionttf-bitstream-vera is 354028 bytes. who cares?12:14
desrtKamion; kochi looks nice but is incomplete12:14
RiddellKamion: could we look at having language packs Recommend on fonts (along with install recommends by default)12:14
desrtKamion; if you use kochi you end up getting one character in kochi and the next one (which isn't in kochi) rendered in a different font -- looks awful12:14
Kamiondesrt: honestly, I want an opinion from native Japanese people before nuking it12:15
sivangRiddell: FYI I'm trying to co-operate with KleanSweep's author to see how we can produce a unified system cleaning tool :-)12:15
KamionRiddell: doesn't particularly help - there's no size gain unless we remove them from the CD and that is politically difficult12:15
RiddellKamion: of course12:15
KamionRiddell: if you want to run that particular gauntlet with sabdfl, silbs, and mdz, you're welcome :)12:15
desrtKamion; a good call.  the girl who complained to me about the problem was chinese.  they are not to be trusted on issues about the japanese :)12:15
Riddellsivang: I don't even know what KleanSweep does :)12:16
KamionI would expect Chinese to use characters not in kochi12:16
desrtKamion; kanji is kanji12:16
desrtsame codepoints in unicode regardless of the language you're in12:16
sivangRiddell: very perliminiary go at a tool for cleaning duplicates , borken binaries and stuff12:16
Kamionmy understanding has always been that that is a huge oversimplification12:16
desrtKamion; different languages hint the characters to be displayed slightly differently12:17
Kamionlook, I'm not listening until you get a Japanese person to say that they don't need kochi. :)12:17
desrtKamion; point is -- you're probably right about the japanese thing12:17
desrti'm just explaining why it was a problem for her12:17
sivangRiddell: but already ahead of me, with a KDE GUI (plans are to have QT independent one) and a perl script as a backend. It's currently targetted for the experienced user (as many of KDE's stuff are) but hopefully together with the author who seems keen for getting involved in Kubuntu/Ubuntu we'll make it nice and easy.12:18
RiddellI wouldn't say kde is targeted at experienced users...12:18
desrtis ekiga on the cd?12:18
sivangRiddell: (e.g. it requires that you know which duplicates can be removed, and which files that do not belong to any package need to stay)12:18
desrtbecause seriously... nobody uses ekiga12:18
Kamiondesrt: a bunch of Canonical employees would disagree with you there12:19
desrtit's at least several orders of magnatude between the users of fspot and ekiga12:19
KeybukKamion: example-content would buy us 20MB ... could strip something out of that12:19
desrtKamion; canonical employees are not "human beings"12:19
Kamionthanks much12:19
desrtKeybuk; touchy12:19
Keybukthe dapper ogg alone would be 11MB12:19
crimsunalso, how about using ogg vorbis in ubuntu-sounds?12:20
KamionKeybuk: gnome icon themes> what are the sizes?12:20
gnomefreakcan you drop bluetooth apps off install? to free up room?12:20
Keybukdesrt: though Mark is now telling everybody edgy will definitely come with mono12:20
Keybukso taking that out would be equally touchy12:20
sivanghmmm..Mono...12:20
KamionKeybuk: desrt isn't suggesting taking out mono12:20
desrtKeybuk; i was going to suggest example content earlier but i understand it has a special place in some important hearts...12:20
Kamion-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 11137689 2006-05-24 15:37 Experience ubuntu.ogg12:21
Kamioncrimsun: that's kind of the big one already ...12:21
Keybukgnomefreak: they're not that big12:21
Keybukclearly, we need bigger CDs12:21
desrtor different compression12:21
Kamiongnomefreak: see sizes in http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/edgy/desktop before making suggestions12:21
gnomefreaklol bigger cd's = dvds12:21
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LaserJockor shorter .oggs12:21
Keybuktbh, I really can't find anything to remove12:21
=== desrt wonders how big ekiga is, even
Riddellthe example content video does seem like a likely candidate12:22
Kamion3.6MB. Useful, but not sufficient in itself12:22
tseng365093612:22
tseng(1.2mb installed)12:22
desrtit has a lot of exotic deps12:22
tsengno thats not right12:23
=== desrt wonders what libpt is
KamionI wouldn't be too opposed to taking out ekiga - would need to talk with sabdfl though12:23
desrtoh.  i have a good one.  nice and controversial12:24
desrthumans don't read /usr/share/doc12:24
Kamionnot happening12:25
desrtyet every single package ships a few k of junk there12:25
slomowhat about gthumb? does almost the same as f-spot... but that's only ~1,1 mb12:25
=== sivang recalls the rpath guys don't ship it and have infras. to take it out
BurgundaviaKamion: what about dropping hwdb-client? I see kubuntu already has12:25
desrtslomo; you need gthumb for picture import to work12:25
KamionBurgundavia: 2.1MB, not sufficient12:25
desrtslomo; unless fspot also does a camera-import sort of thing12:25
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KamionBurgundavia: and anyway, kubuntu never had it12:25
Burgundaviacombine it with a few other removals12:25
Kamioncheck facts first12:25
Burgundaviathats boring ;)12:26
slomodesrt: afaik it does, i don't know that much about f-spot... better ask ajmitch ;)12:26
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RiddellBurgundavia: no, kubuntu added hwdb-client12:26
BurgundaviaRiddell: right12:27
tsengwhat about it?12:27
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tsengdesrt: yes of course f-spot does imports12:27
tsengdesrt: thats the main use case12:27
desrtthen gthumb is a good candidate for the chopping block12:27
tsengit is12:27
Burgundaviawe could do eog as well12:27
tsengbut you should read the lengthy thread of tears on -devel12:28
desrttake away eog and i'll remove your hands12:28
Burgundaviadesrt: I use those!12:28
slomoBurgundavia: not eog... it has different use cases than f-spot12:28
tsengabout "my favorite gthumb feature i will kick and scream about if you replace it"12:28
desrtand i use eog.12:28
tsengsome of them were eog features12:28
Kamiondesrt: you don't get to use "you guys aren't human beings" without also considering yourself not a human being, incidentally :P12:28
Burgundaviaslomo: currently yes. f-spot just needs a "simple browse mode"12:28
desrtKamion; it's fair... but jpegs and pngs open automatically in eog12:29
desrtKamion; i know human beings use it en masse if only by that property alone12:29
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crimsunxscreensaver-gl, perhaps? I'm thinking trimming multiple packages.12:30
desrtya.. you could split out the screensavers into -core and -extras12:30
desrtbut then you have a whole new microdebate12:31
crimsunthey're split to some extent already according to the xscreensaver- descriptions, but my rationale is that the package doesn't actually provide any added functionality.12:31
desrta friend just called.  i told him about the discussion we're having.  his first question: "wtf is ekiga?"12:32
desrthe's been an ubuntu user for almost 2 years :)12:32
gnomefreakgnome-meeting ;)12:32
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=== sivang wonders why the name changed at all, it's still same software isn't it?
Keybuksivang: because it's a VoIP soft phone now, not a netmeeting client12:34
Burgundaviaindeed12:34
Kamioncrimsun: xscreensaver-gl is also a sabdfl item, I'm afraid - he took a personal interest in that12:34
crimsunah12:34
KeybukKamion: is there anything left in desktop that sabdfl _hasn't_ taken a personal interest in?12:34
KamionKeybuk: there are probably a few niche items :P12:35
Kamionis pitti around next week?12:35
RiddellI think he's canoeing12:35
KeybukKamion: computer says No12:35
Kamionbugger, was hoping to get weigh-in on the foomatic-filters-ppds suggestion12:35
Keybukmdz is away, sabdfl is away12:36
Kamionoh, sabdfl is away too? meep12:36
Riddellso they won't be able to complain...12:36
BurgundaviaKamion: knot2 is targetted for later this week, no? (just want to know when I need to finally finish that bloody Knot2 page)12:36
Keybukfabbione is away12:36
sivangKeybuk: ah12:36
KamionBurgundavia: yes, assuming I can resolve this issue12:36
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Burgundaviaright12:36
Keybukiwj is away12:36
Keybukerr12:36
KeybukIS ANYONE AT WORK THIS WEEK ?!12:37
KamionI am, though not Monday12:37
Kamion(bank holiday)12:38
Keybukindeed12:38
KeybukI'll be still on the way back from Cambridge tomorrow12:38
Riddellstill at the BBQ?  must have been a good party12:38
Keybukyeah12:38
Kamionanyone have comments on the suggested removal of foomatic-db-gutenprint?12:41
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nictukuwouldn't a subversion extension for nautilus be useful? me and kov are writing one12:43
BurgundaviaKamion: removing it now is fairly painless, because we have another knot to readd it back in12:44
Kamionindeed12:45
tsengKamion: the fact that I know nothing about that package could be a sign12:46
Kamionit's not12:47
Riddellprinter drivers sound important to me12:47
Kamionno offence, but lots of people don't know about printer driver12:47
Kamions12:47
KamionRiddell: cupsys-driver-gutenprint apparently does everything necessary12:47
Kamionthe claim is that foomatic-db-gutenprint is only needed for lpr and lprng spoolers, not cupsys12:48
BurgundaviaRiddell: printer drivers are a general mess12:48
Riddellcould test out if pitti has phone signal in his tent12:49
KamionI've removed foomatic-db-gutenprint for now12:49
BurgundaviaRiddell: part of the issue, afaict, there is no "central clearing house" for all printer drivers, that does a timely release. Gutenprint does some and linuxprinting.org has others12:51
slomoKamion: is that enough free space? otherwise i would suggest gthumb additionally12:52
Burgundaviawe should probably only ship with gthumb OR f-spot, we might want to remove gthumb to get additional testing on f-spots weakness'12:53
Kamionslomo: see http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/12:55
Kamionwe need getting on for 30MB12:55
KamionI think I might well unilaterally drop "Experience Ubuntu.ogg" and apologise to sabdfl later12:56
BurgundaviaKamion: example content can be trimmed. It is only really important for the final release anyway12:57
Kamiongthumb seems a reasonable suggestion (if controversial), but it's only 1MB12:57
Burgundavia95% of the users of edgy have already seen that video12:57
KamionBurgundavia: if something is going to come back in for the final release, then we need to reserve space for it early12:57
Burgundaviayep12:57
Kamionbut granted on the second point12:57
Burgundaviayes12:59
=== LaserJock runs to go watch it before it's gone :-)
Spadsmdke: ping01:01
geserhello01:01
geserwhat is the correct syntax to mark a bug as fixed through the changelog?01:01
Kamionoho, there are in fact a lot of language packs I can trim01:02
Kamionthat helps :)01:02
Kamionthough maybe doesn't help Edubuntu01:02
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LaserJockheh, poor Edubuntu, always so fat ;-)01:04
Keybukyeah, get rid of the lebowskistan locales01:04
Burgundavialanguagesupport-whiterussian?01:05
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RiddellKamion: presumably edubuntu doesn't have mono?01:19
Kamionf-spot seems less good for just quickly browsing through a directory of images (on a throwaway basis) than gthumb is01:19
BurgundaviaKamion: that is what eog is for01:19
KamionRiddell: nope01:19
KeybukKamion: right, but that's what nautilus and/or eog are for01:19
tsengeog can do what gthumb can in terms of browsing01:19
tseng(and f-spot could with a few hours of hacking)01:20
Burgundaviatseng: it would be glorious of f-spot could have a simple/fast browse mode01:20
tsengBurgundavia: its "faster" than eog according to larry01:20
Kamionhmm, true, eog is ok01:20
tsengBurgundavia: it just doesnt switch through the directory easily01:21
Keybukf-spot is impressively fast, I must admit01:21
Keybukit's one of the first things that struck me about it01:21
=== jdub hopes lewing has time to tidy up the f-spot viewer mode
tsengKeybuk: it handles large libraries significantly better than iphoto01:21
Burgundaviatseng: yes01:21
tsengKeybuk: which is something we can pimp the hell out of if someone does a scientific write up01:22
tsengmiguel has only done wallclock01:22
tsengif someone has some fancy european beer larry is into or something...01:23
tsengbribe away01:23
tsengeog is also part of "gnome", i am not sure how much that will anger upstream if we remove it01:25
tsengjdub: ?01:25
jdubtseng: nowt i suspect, it's not really an integration target01:26
jdubmore of a user acceptance issue, i think01:27
tsengwell the biggest complaint is the browsing01:27
tsengprobably by a vocal minority01:27
bddebianHeya tseng01:27
tsengI imagine there is another group of users that don't know or care what eog is01:27
tsengand that it can browse directories like that01:28
tsenghello, Burgundavia 01:28
tsengand bddebian ...01:28
=== tseng masters tab
bddebianheh01:28
Burgundaviausers need a fast way of browsing pictures01:34
Burgundaviahow they do that is totally immaterial to 95%01:34
Kamionjdub: same question (angering upstream) for ekiga01:34
BurgundaviaI disagree with removing eog because fspot viewer mode isn't up to snuff yet01:34
bddebianWow everybody's here :-)01:34
BurgundaviaKamion: one of the key reason I would support keeping ekiga in the desktop is to make people aware of the alternatives to skype01:36
Burgundaviareasons, rather01:37
tsengBurgundavia: MS NetChat or whatever it is01:37
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Burgundaviathat too01:37
tsengI never saw anyone use it.01:37
jdubKamion: want to remove it for space reasons, or...?01:38
Kamionjdub: space, maybe01:38
Kamionthere are other candidates of course, there always are, but it's one of the ones that's been suggested on a less-widely-used basis01:39
Kamionalthough I see it was one of the top new features listed for GNOME 2.1401:39
Kamionwhich is of course interesting since we've been shipping gnomemeeting/ekiga since warty ;)01:40
BurgundaviaKamion: what came in 2.14 was SIP support01:40
jdubKamion: maybe wait to remove ekiga until the telepathy stack is ready to rock01:41
jdubKamion: it is a useful feature to be able to talk about01:41
KamionBurgundavia: oh, good point, I misread01:41
Kamionwill telepathy be any smaller? :)01:41
jdubKamion: i don't think "angering upstream" is going to be much of a factor though01:41
tsengjdub: google talk would be alot more wideless useful than an arbitrary sip server01:41
tsengjdub: (i think)01:41
tsengwideley01:41
Kamionagreed on useful headline feature - although I do think that folks shouldn't limit themselves to talking about what's installed by default01:41
tsengwidely01:41
jdubKamion: yeah, probably (though it brings in a bunch of libs)01:41
jdubKamion: yeah, same FirstAgainstTheWall problem with GIMP01:42
Kamionmm, that's not one I'm keen to do either01:42
Keybukwe could increase to 800MB CDs?01:43
KamionI wish we had a better option for fonts, but desupporting non-ISO-8859-* speakers without network connections doesn't make me a happy bunny01:43
KamionKeybuk: ... or not01:43
KeybukKamion: any particular reason why not?01:43
KamionKeybuk: you can field ALL the support requests01:43
Keybukit's edgy, half the crap won't run without modern hardware, so you're likely to have a CD writer made in the last decade01:43
Kamionbecause, unlike the last time we increased the CD size we demanded, there is not a clear majority of media out there capable of 800MB01:44
jdubKamion: perhaps we could think about removing non-ttf 100dpi/75dpi fonts...01:44
tsengKeybuk: people have spools of 750mb cds sitting around01:44
Keybukmeh, that's trye I guess01:44
Kamioncome on, most media one buys in the shop isn't 800MB01:44
tsengthat they expect to use01:44
Keybuk750MB is the more prevalent media01:44
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Keybukforgot about that01:44
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Kamionand I'll get all the complaints. I already got complaints about the dapper.0 powerpc CD being too big to burn with some software/media, and that was 703MB or something01:44
Kamionjdub: hmm, doesn't sound popular with the older-Unix crowd, and they'd blog about it01:45
jdubKamion: how much of our software realistically requires it these days?01:46
Kamionas far as fonts go, ttf-* are the heavyweight ones01:46
Keybukthis is a non-win discussion01:46
jdubhrm, i guess there's a bunch of tcl/tk things, and old school X stuff01:46
Keybukwe're at the point where we can't justify removing much at all01:46
Kamionjdub: if you dislike gnome-terminal and like fast terminals :-), you want old X fonts01:46
jdubKamion: not scalable old X fonts01:47
jdubyou can totally remove gimp01:47
Kamionjdub: ttf-scalable is 344KB01:47
Kamioner, I mean xfonts-scalable01:47
desrti guess example content was (literally) a no-go?01:47
jdubg-a-i is at a point where removing things like gimp is viable01:47
Kamiondesrt: I've sent mail about it01:47
Kamiongimp also sounds like a negative blog publicity attractor01:48
Kamionremoving it, that is01:48
desrtbtw guys: for what it's worth i hear a lot of people talk about how awesome it is that ubuntu still fits on one CD01:49
jdubKamion: not sure you should be ruled by negative blog publicity01:49
Kamionjdub: not ruled by it, but PR is worth considering01:49
Keybukdesrt: it doesn't fit :)  the CD is a very difficultly laced corset :p01:49
Kamiondesrt: that's certainly not something we plan to change in the near future01:49
jdubwith usefully published rationale people can point to, i think removing gimp is entirely understandable01:49
bddebianKeybuk: :-)01:49
Kamionjdub: you always wanted to get rid of it, though :)01:50
Kamionthere are others more attached to it01:50
jdub(clearly stating the rationale and fact that it can be installed very easily from supported set)01:50
KamionI'm not saying no, just saying I put it further away from the wall than you do01:50
jdubKamion: well, no, i always had it on my list of things that could be removed at some point in the future because they were inessential01:50
Burgundaviafwiw: fspot now doing redeye and cropping removes 90% of the raison-de-etre of gimp installed by defeault01:51
jdubif we had "gimp elements" that should totally go on the cd :-)01:51
KamionI'm a little concerned that we've been letting printing stuff grow without end because too few developers understand it01:51
Kamiongimp elements?01:52
jdubKamion: riffing on "photoshop elements" (the cut down easy version of it)01:52
BurgundaviaKamion: photoshop elements is a cutedown version of photoshop that has been flying off the shelves01:52
Kamionah01:52
desrtjdub; removing gimp is likely to go over better, too, than removing, say, abiword01:52
mjg59Burgundavia: Yes01:53
jdubdesrt: abiword isn't on the CD (or are you making a hub joke?)01:53
BurgundaviaI can the blog post now "Ubuntu sabatoges the GIMP"01:53
desrtjdub; not a hub joke.  abiword developer persecution complex joke.01:53
Burgundaviamjg59: thanks01:53
mjg59Burgundavia: Let me know if it causes any problems - I believe it to be safe now01:53
desrtjdub; abiword got removed from some fedora cd a while back and planet was ablaze01:53
jdubdesrt: you could replace all of those big words with "hub" and still be utterly accurate :)01:53
desrtjdub; it's not just hub :)01:54
jdubwow, x-lite just got vastly less sucky01:54
=== desrt still thinks that /usr/share/doc could go
desrtit might not be the debian way... but seriously... no real human uses that directory01:55
bddebianHow about a DSU? (Damn Small Ubuntu) to fit on a USB Stick :-)01:55
maswanbddebian: just get a 1-gig USB stick. ;)01:55
bddebianmaswan: Have you seen DSL?01:56
maswanbddebian: I think I've heard of it01:56
maswanbddebian: no personal experience with DSL though01:56
bddebianIt's actually quite cool01:56
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Kamiondesrt: they do when they're pointed at it01:57
KamionI'm not interested in removing documentation. seriously.01:57
desrt/usr/share/doc isn't documentation01:57
KamionI'm especially not interested in removing documentation when it would take hundreds of uploads to implement01:58
Kamionrubbish01:58
=== jdub turns up the channel air conditioning
desrtthe hundreds of uploads thing is a good argument01:58
Kamionand we're not removing changelogs. no way. too useful for us01:58
desrtthe internet is a one-to-one function that maps version numbers to changelogs01:58
Kamionhundreds of uploads> that's just for the CD01:58
bddebianjdub: :-)01:58
Kamionit must be nice for you to have internet everywhere you go, even when you're travelling01:58
desrtKamion; only costs $50/mo too01:59
Kamionperhaps you could share your technology01:59
Kamionor your money01:59
bddebianheh01:59
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:irc.freenode.net] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | 6.06.1 released
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bddebianSheesh02:11
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desrtwelcome, everyone, to freenode02:13
desrtthe OFFICIAL network of the ubuntu project02:13
desrtenjoy your stay02:13
desrt(it may be short)02:13
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Burgundaviadesrt: be nice02:14
KeybukKamion: not to mention licence zealots02:14
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desrtoh right.  the GPL has some sort of a clause about that02:15
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Keybukoh good02:15
Keybuk"a replacement ircd server tree"02:15
Keybukhow nih02:15
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desrtKeybuk; hm?02:16
lifelessKeybuk: I would have thought you would support that :)02:16
Keybuklilospam02:16
desrtoh.  i finally ignored lilo!*@*02:16
=== desrt got sick of freenode's prefered hostname format changing on a weekly basis and causing lilo to evade his previous bans
exobuzzthe internet was fine in 199502:17
exobuzzit all worked02:17
KeybukAugust 95 ?02:18
Burgundaviaexobuzz: for about 20k people02:18
exobuzzwell around that time and before.02:18
exobuzz:-)02:18
exobuzzand i dont ever remember getting a popup, or even adverts ont he www02:18
desrtif y'all think this is bad you should have been on efnet in the late 90s02:18
exobuzzjust real information02:18
desrtnow _that_ was a party02:18
exobuzzaah the irc war period ?02:18
desrtoh yes02:18
exobuzzcheck my clone bots. etc etc02:18
lifelessman, undernet02:18
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desrtlilo is merely incompetent.  back then you had people actively trying to take down irc servers02:19
bddebianHeya lifeless02:19
tsengdesrt: that was awful02:19
maswandesrt: we moved our local channel from ircnet to gimpnet back then02:19
exobuzzgimpnet.. thats a wonderful name ..02:19
desrtand efnet had like 50x the population of (then) openprojects02:19
maswanah, freenode is starting to get a resonably high user count these days though02:19
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exobuzzyou know, the gimp is very nice piece of software, but it probably should rename if it wants to be taken serously in the business world.. or maybe it doesnt02:20
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desrteven now it's 10x... efnet is very peaceful by comparison :)02:20
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Keybukexobuzz: it is being renamed02:20
exobuzzit is ? what to ?02:20
Keybukit'll now be the sadomasochistic submissive personality with a distinct rubber fetish02:20
Keybuk(prizes to anyone who can backronym *that*)02:20
maswanyou want a backronym to the entire thing, or just to tsspwadrf?02:21
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desrtsounds a bit like sabdfl02:21
=== Keybuk activates an emergency mind-wipe
maswandesrt: btw, ircnet is nice and quiet these days too02:22
desrtSAdo suB with Distinct Fetish....02:22
welshbytesudo apt-get install sadsubpwidruft02:22
desrtmaswan; i think they learned a lot of leasons from the irc wars about how to make a network withstand anything02:22
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maswandesrt: yup02:22
desrtmaswan; washed-up efnet server admins are probably really good people to have on staff :)02:23
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maswandesrt: still, the kiddies that wield 10+ GBit/s packeting still can make an impact02:23
Keybukdesrt: they're too washed up02:23
desrtmaswan; you can only do so much....02:24
exobuzzwell. if it wasnt for all the bloody remote controlled pc's02:24
desrt"bill gates made efnet suck!"02:24
exobuzzand that's partly microsofts fault for not addressing security earlier on02:24
desrthah.  yup.02:24
maswandesrt: I remember back when the current generation of our nren was new, they made a point of "hey, we took 1.5Gbit/s of DDoS and we delivered the packets. poor server, but the network didn't go down."02:25
exobuzzits also partly the fault of people like "my mum" who open up emails with attachments which advertise "pretty screensaver"02:25
desrt"poor server" is a funny concept :)02:25
maswanexobuzz: again reminding us why it would have been useful to separate "display" and "execute". :/02:25
desrti mean... if you really think about it you'll find it quite amusing :)02:26
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exobuzzmaswan: yeh02:26
Keybukso, as well as upstart, I'm going to write a daemon that you install to make your machine run faster02:26
desrtjdub; welcome back.02:26
Keybukit'll shave 5s or so off the boot process, make all apps start faster and use less memory02:26
KeybukI shall call it "placebo"02:26
=== maswan double-clicks on Keybuk's irc statement in the hope of making stuff go fast
desrtKeybuk; can't we just have people install gentoo for that?02:26
desrtKeybuk; i hear it feels a lot faster02:26
maswanoh, call it "placeboo"02:27
exobuzzof course it feels faster when you have been waiting 4 days for something to compile!02:27
exobuzz:)02:27
HrdwrBoBplacebo -funroll-loops02:27
desrtat that point it's practically your baby.  it's only natural to feel proud :)02:27
exobuzzand with gentoo you have the added benefit of a source package installing everything + teh kitchen sink onto your system, so you must upgrade to newer faster hd's all the time02:27
KeybukI just realised why upstart "Boots Faster"02:29
desrtwoh.  easy there.02:29
Keybukit doesn't start usplash02:29
sladenKeybuk: so what speed we up to at the moment?02:30
desrtthere was something on planet a few days ago about how having a usplash running in non-splash mode slows down the boot02:30
tsengdesrt: actually, when warty came out, the entire gentoo fanboydom wet itself02:30
tsengdesrt: over LDFLAGS02:30
tsenglinker optimization02:30
Keybuksladen: 44s02:30
Keybuk.402:30
jduband that's why we have tseng!02:31
desrttseng; i'm afraid i don't understand02:31
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jdubinteresting, Amazon EC2 uses Xen02:33
jdubthey're planning to have ubuntu images fairly soon, too02:34
lifelessEC2?02:34
jsgotangcoEC2?02:34
lifelessjdub: are you going to the redhat thing tomorrow ?02:34
jdublifeless: massive virtualised 'on demand' computing cluster02:35
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jdublifeless: wasn't planning to (they didn't get back to me about speaking)02:35
jdubhttp://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sc_fe_l_2/103-8136015-6811048?ie=UTF8&node=201590011&no=3435361&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA02:36
desrtcrap02:36
desrtdad needs to go to hospital.  amulence is here02:36
desrtbbl.02:36
jdub"amazon elastic compute cloud"02:36
lifelessrocking02:36
jdubdesrt: ! good luck02:36
jsgotangconice name02:36
lifelessdesrt: goodluck!02:36
jdubPay only for what you use. 02:36
jdub$0.10 per instance-hour consumed (or part of an hour consumed). 02:36
jdub$0.20 per GB of data transferred outside of Amazon (i.e., Internet traffic). 02:36
jdub$0.15 per GB-Month of Amazon S3 storage used for your images (charged by Amazon S3).02:36
jdub02:36
lifelessjdub: ok, wondering if its worth dropping in to see what their message is02:37
jdubyou use S3 for storage (transfer internally is free)02:37
jdublifeless: want to go?02:39
lifelessjdub: kinda :). I think someone should keep an eye on them ;)02:40
jdubmy edgy server upgrade was pretty boring, btw02:43
jdubi babied the upgrade a bit02:43
jdubbut there were no spectacular breakages or anything02:43
jdubthough i did get to swap in my new SATA card02:44
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zul_hmmm...debian has ported update-grub to grun202:49
zul_grub2 even02:49
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jdubzul: now *that's* edgy!02:50
zuli guess it is :)02:50
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Burgundaviahow complete is grub2?02:52
zulits still got a way to go ihmo02:54
zulheh...maybe i should go to bed02:54
zulits usable though02:56
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Burgundaviazul: hasn't it been in development for years?03:13
zulapparently03:13
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robertjthere seems to be a phenomena in which items at either tail of the development time bell-curve are very unstable03:25
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Kaleodoes anybody know if the existence of the file /var/lock/acpisleep is checked at any point in the acpi scripts ?03:38
bluefoxicyI am so frigging lazy.03:39
bddebianThat's nice03:40
bluefoxicyseriously, I have a one-file C project I'm messing with03:42
bluefoxicyI wrote the C file such that ./malloc.c compiles it.03:42
zulthats nice03:44
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exobuzzyou will find that a malloc funciton has already been written04:05
bddebianheh04:05
exobuzzso you cant be that lazy04:05
exobuzzwriting your own04:05
exobuzz:)04:05
exobuzzaaah my new code. finally finished. its a masterpiece.... 4 days hard work.. ./printf.c .. no. wait dont't tell me. aaargh!!04:06
exobuzzwhat about alias @="make" or something04:09
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exobuzz:)04:09
lastnodeimbrandon_, you around, mate?04:10
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bddebianhaha04:13
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elkjaerI do not know who to direct this to.. The daily build iso that can be downloaded from the ubuntu website is too big to fit on a 700 MB cd-rom. The latest is 724 MB.04:50
infinityelkjaer: Yeah, dailies go oversized sometimes.  Obviously, we'll fix that before we do another test release.04:50
elkjaercool.. thanx04:51
=== Hobbsee waves to infinity
=== infinity hides.
=== Hobbsee searches out infinity. why are you hiding?
infinityInstinct. :)04:56
infinityWhen people greet me on IRC, I run.  I'm sure it seems more rational in my head.04:57
Hobbseeinfinity: ahhh....i wasnt going to request *that* many things off you :P04:57
Hobbseein fact, i dotn think i was going to request anything at all04:57
bddebianHI infinity! :-)04:57
infinityIn that case, you're my new best friend. :)04:58
Hobbseeinfinity: hehe, right...04:59
Hobbseeinfinity: now it's my turn to hide?04:59
infinityHobbsee: Oh, don't worry, I'm not clingy. :)05:00
infinityMuch...05:00
Hobbseeinfinity: hehe, right05:00
Hobbseemuch05:00
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Hobbseeinfinity: did you want to give back wine?  seems that it broke due to udev05:40
Hobbseeinfinity: which seems fixed05:40
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lastnodeinfinity, might i bug you a little now05:49
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desrtarf06:50
desrtdestroy vs. dispose vs. finalize06:51
desrthow perplexing!06:51
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grexk-fno-stack-protector on xen-source-2.6.16 fails to compile...07:52
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dholbachgood morning08:12
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tepsipakkikeybuk: upstart boots fine here :)09:39
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dokoajmitch: ping09:46
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slomoKamion: ping?11:04
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Kamionslomo: hi (but not working today)11:05
KamionI'm just doing a bit of Debian work, then I'll be off again11:06
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slomoKamion: np :) i only had a small question... regarding the dbus uvf exception as mdz is away this week afaik. do you have an oppinion on this? :)11:07
Kamionis it OK if I read over it tomorrow?11:07
slomosure, thanks :)11:08
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carlosKamion: Is there a new version of .po and .pot files for Debian Installer that should be imported into Rosetta? (either dapper or edgy?)11:13
carlosRiddell: hi, around?11:13
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lucasare there plans to enable KPROBE in the edgy default kernel ? fedora core enables it11:22
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sivangmorning11:27
imbrandonmoins sivang11:28
Kamioncarlos: I've set my build system to edgy, so I'll have new versions for that in a couple of hours11:30
carlosKamion: ok11:30
carlosKamion: do you want to do a new upload for Dapper?11:30
Kamioncarlos: not particularly11:30
carlosok11:30
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carlosKamion: could you send us (rosetta@launchpad.net) the list of packages that we should block for Edgy ?11:31
carlosor is it the same list as Dapper?11:31
KamionI might suck in new translations from Rosetta at the next point release, but there's no need for new strings11:31
Kamioncarlos: at the moment it appears to be the same11:31
carlosok11:31
carlosI will prepare a wiki page with such list so we can double check that we didn't miss anything and we can update it later when needed.11:32
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carlosKamion: btw, if we do an upload after you do 'suck' translations from Rosetta for a new debian installer release, the statistics are updated so people would know that their translations are being used. It's just an informative UI change.11:34
Kamioncarlos: so do you want me to generate files for dapper+dapper-updates first?11:35
Kamioncarlos: ok, look, I'm off work today, so I'll generate dapper+dapper-updates tomorrow and ping you11:36
KamionI've disabled the cron job so it won't build for edgy today11:36
carlosKamion: that would be good11:36
carlosthanks11:36
Kamionnp11:36
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AndrewLeesladen: Hi, I updated bug 57081, but it seems no progress still.11:44
UbugtuMalone bug 57081 in scim-chewing "scim-chewing cannot enter any Chinese character" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5708111:44
Riddellcarlos: hi11:45
Spadshttp://xkcd.com/c149.html <-- ha ha sudo11:45
carlosRiddell: hi, about KDE's .desktop translations11:45
carlosRiddell: just to remind me how it works, I guess we should import the specific .pot files with exactly the same filename you gave them as the translation domain and include them as part of the language packs, right?11:46
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Riddellcarlos: yes please11:46
carlosok11:47
ograKamion, did anything else apart from the sysv-rc dependency change in openssh with your last upload ? seems the -S option doesnt create a socket anymore for me in ltsp11:48
Spadsoolite is kind of confusing, because the police are purple and I always thought purple meant pirates11:49
Spadser, mcm11:49
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AndrewLeesladen: How to change the im-switch config file of scim-chewing package is still in question, who do you recommend to answer that?11:50
ograKamion,  ssh localhost -S /tmp/olis-ssh-socket -vvv gains me a 11:58
ogradebug1: Control socket "/tmp/olis-ssh-socket" does not exist11:58
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Kamionogra: no12:12
Kamionogra: the message you quote is not a fatal error, and will happen if there isn't an existing master ssh client12:15
Kamionon that socket12:15
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dholbachplease let poor Kamion go back to his free day :)12:15
ograKamion, hmm, it worked until the recent update12:15
Kamionogra: you need to use -M to make ssh be a master12:16
ograoh, damned, i missed he had a free day ...12:16
Kamionogra: ssh hasn't changed in that respect, I can assure you12:16
ograKamion, sorry, go back relaxing and enjoy ... !12:16
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Kamionogra: I suggest you use -o 'ControlMaster auto'12:17
ograok12:17
Kamionthen it'll automatically create a socket if there isn't one already12:17
Kamiondholbach: just before I go back to house-cleaning (joy), do you know much about printing? If so, could you have a look at the suggestion on ubuntu-devel@ to get rid of foomatic-filters-ppds from desktop and replace it with a symlink?12:19
Kamionthe suggestion was to put the symlink in cupsys, although I think perhaps it belongs in foomatic-db-engine instead - not sure12:20
dholbachKamion: atm I don't have a printer here to test at all. doko and pitti always looked into printing.12:21
Kamionah, ok12:21
Kamiondoko: if you're around this week ... ^--12:21
ograargh ... /tmp wasnt wiretable in my ltsp client ... it wasnt ssh's faut at all ... silly me ...12:21
ogra*fault12:21
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ogra(i called it with -M in ldm btw)12:22
ogra(missed that while testing with localhost)12:22
Kamionif nobody's looked at it when I come back tomorrow, I'll probably Just Do It; the 11MB saving would be well worth it12:22
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dokoKamion, dholbach: in the past, gnome-cups-manager did use that kind of information. I'm pretty sure that it's still needed; g-c-m cannot use the xml database AFAIK12:24
KamionXML database? the change as I understand it is to generate the PPDs on the fly using foomatic-db-engine rather than having them statically on the filesystem12:25
LarstiQogra: why not ~/.ssh/host-port-user ?12:25
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ograLarstiQ, because ter is no ~/ on ltsp clients ;)12:28
LarstiQogra: valid reason I guess ;)12:29
ogra*there12:29
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ograyep :)12:29
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gnomefreakthe gnome-panel having to be refreshed before newly installed apps show up is a feature right?12:51
seb128gnomefreak: what do you mean? how do you refresh the panel?12:51
gnomefreakseb128: log out and back in or killall gnome-panel12:52
seb128no12:52
seb128that would be a bug12:52
seb128if you speak about the menu12:52
gnomefreaksince breezy12:52
seb128works fine for me and lot of other users too12:52
seb128I think there is some bug for .desktop not installed to the standard location12:52
gnomefreakyou install an app than you have to refresh gnome panel or menu before it shows up12:52
seb128but monitor should just work12:53
seb128no12:53
gnomefreakhmmm12:53
seb128that would be a monitor bug on your box12:53
seb128monitoring bug12:53
seb128what package is that?12:53
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ograhmm, why has still nobody added a gconf key for the fading to gnome-session ...12:53
gnomefreakany package12:53
=== ogra goes digging ...
gnomefreakseb128: give me a sec and i will give you a bug number12:53
seb128mvo: there was the "TryExec=" being an issue if .desktop is installed before the binary12:54
mvoseb128: yes12:54
seb128mvo: didn't you workaround that one?12:54
seb128gnomefreak: please don't open a new bug, we already have some for that12:54
mvoseb128: I can't remember TBH, the problem was tricky to solve, I talked with vuntz about possible strategies12:54
gnomefreaki didnt12:54
gnomefreakim commenting on one someone else opened12:55
gnomefreakhttps://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/5795612:55
UbugtuMalone bug 57956 in Ubuntu "Software package installed, but menu not updated until next X session" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  12:55
gnomefreaki retrack last statment i have seen it since hoary so i figured it was normal 12:56
seb128mvo: right, I think you workarounded the package by dropping the TryExec in fact12:56
seb128gnomefreak: ok, will comment later12:56
gnomefreakty12:56
seb128np12:57
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mvo:)12:59
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ograseb128, gnome-sessions logout.c has a function:01:00
ogra488   if (!a11y_enabled)01:00
ogra489     {01:00
ogra490       XGrabServer (GDK_DISPLAY ());01:00
ogra491       gsm_foreach_screen (fadeout_screen);01:00
ogra492     }01:00
seb128yep01:00
ogradoes that mean i have a key i could set for the fading not to happen ? 01:01
seb128yeah, activate a11y01:01
seb128but we can patch it to have a "or LTSP set" case01:01
ograok ... so i can add a && getenv(LTSP_CLIENT) there :)01:01
ograthanks 01:01
seb128I've to go for lunch, bbl01:01
seb128yeah, sure01:01
seb128feel free to do the change :)01:02
ograi will, thanks for the help, bon appetite :)01:02
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seb128ogra: you probably want use "||" and not "&&" for that01:09
ograyep01:11
ograindeed01:11
ograKeybuk, morning 01:11
ograKeybuk, does upstart come with an opportunity to blacklist services ? i just remembered i forgot to ask you about that ...01:12
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Keybuk"blacklist services" ?01:15
ograyes01:15
Keybukdefine.01:15
ograas i do in ltsp for the services that got run by the ltsp-client initscript01:15
ograif i create the chroot i remove a whole lot of stuff from rc2.d 01:16
ogra(save memory make sure stuff i dont need isnt run at all etc)01:16
Keybukright01:18
Keybukso you can do that two ways with upstart01:18
Keybuk1) rm /etc/event.d/....01:18
Keybuk2) vi /etc/event.d/... and take out "on startup"01:18
ograok, but if i rm it might cause trouble with other services that depend on that one i guess ...01:18
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Keybukupstart doesn't do dependencies, remember01:19
ograi.e. i never use the networking startup script ... because i set up the interfaces statically from the client initscript01:19
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ograso if a script has on defaultroute, it will work ... but not if it depends on "networking" to have finished01:20
ograwell, you kind of have dependencys if you want, no ? 01:20
Keybukno, just events01:21
ograeven though it might be a event thats the dependency :)01:21
ogra*an01:21
ogra"on avahi running" is a dependency ...01:21
Keybukyou can always change them01:22
ograwell, i wouldnt like to change a ton of initscripts ...01:22
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KeybukI haven't yet fully figured it out01:23
Keybuksuggestions welcome01:23
ograi will try with rm and see how it breaks :) assuming we'll get upstart as default in edgy01:23
ogras/how/how and if/ :)01:24
KeybukI was thinking of slipping it in before knot freeze;)01:25
ograknot2 ?01:25
Keybukjust need to write shutdown now01:26
ograhmm ... k ...01:26
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LureKeybuk: is UUID in /etc/fstab not supported for LVM volumes yet or should I report a bug?01:42
_ionlure: Well, i don't think UUIDs are really necessary with LVM.01:43
_ionlure: The device names will be static no matter in which bus the physical disk is.01:43
Lure_ion: true, but not sure what is the plan for edgy01:43
KeybukLure: we don't convert LVM volume names to UUIDs01:44
Keybukdoesn't seem to be any point01:44
LureKeybuk: ok, I just started to use my LV home in Edgy dual boot and just wanted to know what is the-right-thing01:45
Keybuk"don't use LVM in the first place"01:45
Keybuk<G>01:45
HrdwrBoBwhat happens if you have two LVs with the same name (f.e. you put another ubuntu installs disk in a pc with ubuntu already on it01:46
HrdwrBoB(I haven't yet needed to do that, and it may well be out of scope)01:46
KeybukHrdwrBoB: you discover that using LVM was a mistake01:47
=== Keybuk is not a fan of fabbione file
Keybuksystems01:47
HrdwrBoBhaha01:47
Hobbseeheh01:47
Hobbsee"a mistake"01:47
Zdradoes someone knows why libnotify in edgy doesn't shows images from pixbuf and stock but works from URI ?!? On dapper all methods worked. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35041601:48
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sivanghmm, so when I boot now I see that tty mode is all wrong, flickering like hell and rolling accross the screen being displayed in the half of the screen01:51
sivangand also, grub display flickers01:51
seb128Zdra: no01:51
sivanghave my laptop gone bad already, or could the troulbes in the usplash affect grub screen as well?01:51
sivang(I also noticed instead of 60hz in the resolution preferences, I get only 50 now, I think it was 60 once)01:52
Hobbseesivang: i've been getting weird tty's at times, just after the usplash ends01:52
=== Hobbsee figured it was a pebkac problem or something
Zdraseb128: can you reproduce the bug too ? or I'm alone ?01:54
seb128Zdra: how do I try?01:55
Zdraseb128: run the unit test in libnotify/tests/test-image :-)01:55
Zdraor activate notification in xchat-gnome01:56
seb128xchat-gnome works fine01:56
seb128getting libnotify source01:56
Zdraseb128: you have image ?01:56
seb128what image?01:56
seb128let me build libnotify01:56
Zdrathe x-g's icon in notify bubbles01:56
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seb128dunno01:57
zygahi01:57
seb128Hi zyga01:57
zygaKeybuk: ping01:57
seb128Zdra: what I look is the text to those bubbles, I would have to pay attention for the icon next time I have one :p01:57
seb128Zdra: nop, no icon01:58
Zdraseb128: in libnotify's code I see it needs dbus >= 0.6001:58
Zdrabut it should be ok for edgy01:58
seb128Zdra: configure should force that then01:58
seb128Zdra: edgy had 0.6201:59
seb128has 0.6201:59
Zdra#if CHECK_DBUS_VERSION(0, 60)01:59
=== Zdra make some tests :)
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seb128rodarvus: around? is there anything special to get aiglx used? is it supposed to work with a radeon card using the standard ati driver for xorg?02:09
rodarvusif your ati board supports DRI yes, this is the case02:09
rodarvusseb128, "glxinfo | grep rendering" shoult tell you02:10
seb128$ glxinfo | grep rendering02:10
seb128libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b02:10
seb128direct rendering: Yes02:10
seb128when running compiz I get a "compiz.real: GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap is missing"02:10
rodarvusmjg59 uploaded a xorg-server with compositing enabled by defult this weekend, so if your board supports it, it should be working now02:11
seb128my edgy is uptodate and I've no fglrx installed02:11
rodarvushmm, I'm getting the same error here. seems to be a recent bug02:11
seb128BTW fglrx needs to be updated for xorg 7.102:11
rodarvusI'll have to trigger it02:11
seb128ok02:11
Keybukzyga: hello02:11
rodarvusseb128, infinity will do the update of fglrx (he's the only one that knows where the .tar.gz for fglrx comes from :) )02:12
seb128rodarvus: ok, cool. You commented on a bug some weeks ago saying that fglrx should be updated really soon so I was wondering about it02:12
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seb128rodarvus: let me know if you figure something about the "GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap is missing"02:13
rodarvusindeed, this update is due for a few weeks already, need to ping him again to check if he'll be able to do it02:13
rodarvusseb128, sure, I'll take a look at it later today02:13
seb128thank you02:13
rodarvusno, thank YOU :)02:13
exobuzzseb128: thats nto supported in the ati driver!02:13
seb128exobuzz: fglrx or ati?02:14
exobuzzfglrx02:14
seb128exobuzz: I'm using ati02:14
exobuzzddint think the ati ones had 3d at all ?02:14
exobuzzonly 2d02:14
rodarvusseb128: now whats really interesting is that this hook *is* supported by current Mesa02:14
rodarvus("glxinfo | grep GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap" to check)02:14
rodarvusI wonder why compiz believes it is not.02:15
seb128$ glxinfo | grep GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap02:15
seb128libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b02:15
seb128    GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_OML_swap_method, 02:15
seb128    GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap02:15
zygamvo: ping02:15
LarstiQexobuzz: ati has 3d fine for a couple of chips02:15
exobuzzOH02:15
mvohello zyga02:15
mjrati actually calls the radeon driver for radeon chips, but yeah, the free dri driver does do 3d pretty fine for <=9250 (experimentally for <=x850)02:16
exobuzzthe ati driver doesnt turn the backlight on on my laptop without forcing it to think there is an external monitor..02:16
exobuzz:/02:16
zygamvo: hi, I've fixed a minor crash in cnf and I'd like to know how this (and other improvements later) can get synced again02:17
tsengexobuzz: file a bug?02:17
exobuzztseng: there was one filed years ago about it02:17
exobuzzwell. last year anyway02:17
tsengwell then you know what to do02:17
exobuzzwhat ?02:18
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tsengstart commenting on the bug adding any missing info02:18
mvozyga: if it is in your branch, I merge it and upload it. does that sound ok?02:19
zygawhat is the last branch have you used?02:19
zygas/have you/you have/02:19
mvozyga: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/cmd-not-found--mvo/02:20
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mvozyga: just write me where to merge from (and add a changelog entry) and I will sponsor the upload02:20
zygamvo: I branched the source available in edgy and pushed the original branch and the fix to http://suxx.pl/~zyga/command-not-found02:21
zygaI'll clean the code up today  and try to have just one, working branch that incoporates your fixes (regarding data extraction)02:22
mvozyga: the edgy code should be identical to the branch above02:23
zygaI don't thing you can just merge with that (that is a fresh branch without any ancestry)02:23
zygayes, that's cnf-0.0.2.tar.gz + the fix - stuff bzr chose to ignore according to .bzrignore02:23
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mvozyga: ok, thanks. if you branch is up-to-date, I don't really mind creating a new one. I will do this now02:34
zygamvo: I don't have one branch ATM, I need to get my code cleaned up02:35
mvook02:35
zygamvo: you can use your original branch and just apply the one-line-diff02:35
ograwow, network manager gets freaky if you run a local dhcp server on the same machine :)02:36
mvozyga: let me know when I can merge again02:36
zygamvo: thanks, I will02:36
ograeven if that server isnt bound to the interface 02:36
Zdraseb128: for the image on notify bubbles, I read libnotify and notification-daemon's code. it seems good. the daemon print a warning because it doesn't receive what is expected, seems a dbus bug02:41
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Zdrain changelog I see there were a dbus bug for images in libdbus <= 0.60 and I think the bug is back on 0.6202:41
seb128Zdra: ah, might be02:42
Zdraseb128: is it planned to switch to 0.90 ?02:42
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seb128Zdra: slomo has it ready I think but is waiting on an UVF exception02:43
seb128Zdra: mdz is on VAC and UK is a bank holiday today though02:43
Hobbseewhat, another one?02:44
Zdraslomo: have you libdbus packages for 0.9x ? would be great like that I can check if it fixes my notify bug :-)02:44
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Hobbseetseng: that only happens once a year though.  i've seen at least 2 bank holidays in the past couple of months.02:46
tsengLabor Day is coming up in the US02:46
tsengwe seem to have a few in the summer02:46
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Hobbseeah right02:46
Hobbseehi mvo_ 02:46
Hobbseetseng: and 4th of july, of course02:47
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mjg59seb128: compiz --indirect-rendering02:58
Zdraseb128: I installed dapper's packages for dbus and it works now02:59
ogramjg59, my console gets freaky with the recent usplash update ...02:59
mjg59ogra: What hardware?02:59
ogramjg59, it starts glowing white on the edges ... ati card02:59
mjg59ogra: What hardware?03:00
ogra01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M 5955 (PCIE)03:00
Zdraseb128: so dbus 0.62 is buggy and can't send GValueArray03:00
mjg59ogra: Yes, but what hardware?03:00
mjg59The chipset is uninteresting03:00
seb128Zdra: good, now we know where the bug is, next step: the patch ;)03:00
ograhp pavillon ze2000, amd turion, run in i386 mode03:01
mjg59Ok03:01
mjg59I'll see if I can duplicate it on the one I have here03:01
mjg59(Well, similar machine)03:01
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LarstiQogra: hey, I have that too03:02
ograsame HW ?03:02
LarstiQalmost03:02
LarstiQhp nx6125, amd sempron, x8603:02
LarstiQogra: fglrx reports a different card then lspci tho03:03
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ograi disabled fglrx sice it was broken for some time during the xorg 7.1 transition ...03:04
ograso i'm running the ati driver03:04
slomoZdra: i hope to get new dbus in shortly after knot2 (or with some luck even before)03:07
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seb128mjg59: thank you for the option, it doesn't complain with it but it still acts like if I had no window manager, and I managed to crash xorg then03:09
seb128there is something else to do than running gnome-window-decorator and compiz?03:10
rodarvusseb128: sorry, I was offline, what option did mjg59 passed you to enable aiglx?03:14
seb128rodarvus: --indirect-rendering to compiz03:14
seb128rodarvus: that's not to enable aiglx03:14
seb128just to run compiz03:15
seb128but it doesn't work better that way03:15
ograit should have a generic check if DRI is available and autoamtically fall back to that option :)03:15
mjg59seb128: You want --strict-binding as well for aiglx03:16
seb128mjg59: is there a place where I can read about that instead of bothering people on IRC? :)03:16
ograthe source ? :)03:16
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Zdrabtw, xcompmgr without any option and the free nv driver works pretty well... and that's by far faster to not redraw all windows when moving a window :-)03:22
ograhmm03:23
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Zdrabut if I have a transparent window or shadow it becomes damn slow without nvidia driver03:23
=== ogra wonders why he didnt got a notification mail from the main inclusion queue page ... Kamion apparenly promoted ltspfsd and even changed the wiki ...
seb128ah, better with compiz-plugins installed03:26
HiddenWolfseb128: will we ever see a metacity with those effects? 03:28
seb128mjg59: thank you, with that package installed it works fine now03:28
seb128HiddenWolf: now that I have aiglx working I can have a look on that :p03:29
mjg59seb128: Don't the dependencies require compiz-plugins?03:29
mjg59Zdra: Yes, doing any composition effects will be slow at the moment03:30
jdubmjg59: so i didn't catch much about radeon vs. fglrx in the latest changelogs - what's the best option there?03:31
jdubare we still waiting for an fglrx with the new GLX apis?03:31
mjg59jdub: Still on the XPress 200 thing?03:31
mjg59If so, you don't have a great deal of choice03:32
jdubyeah, quebecistani craptop03:32
jdubi'm mulling getting a macbook (would love a laptop with dvi)03:33
mjg59radeon won't drive the 3D on it03:33
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seb128hum, k03:45
seb128so it sort of worked smoothly once03:45
seb128and since as soon as I start compiz Xorg goes to 99% of CPU usage and moving a window takes like 5 seconds, restart the box makes no difference03:46
seb128mjg59: no, compiz-gnome "Replaces: compiz (<< 0.0.2-4ubuntu2)03:47
seb128Depends: libgnome-window-settings1 | capplets-data (<< 1:2.15.0), libgconf2-4, libgtk2.0-0, libwnck18, compiz-core (= 0.0.13.38-0ubuntu2)"03:47
seb128and compiz-core package:03:48
seb128"Depends: libcairo2, libpng12-0, libxdamage1, libxcomposite1, libxfixes3, libxrandr2, libice6, libsm6, libstartup-notification0, libgl1-mesa, librsvg2-203:48
seb128"03:48
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Anndyany idea about mobile phone application development under linux03:48
bddebianMorning folks03:48
seb128mjg59: ah, that's because I installed compiz-gnome instead of compiz03:49
mjg59seb128: Ah03:49
seb128mjg59: what the standard options to use? running compiz without plugins gives no window decorations and nothing03:50
seb128I copied "gconf decoration wobbly fade minimize cube rotate zoom scale move resize place switcher trailfocus water bs neg" from the wiki which gives all sort of effects03:50
bddebianseb128: Hi.  So that new pygobject upload fixes my codegen problem? ;-P03:51
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seb128but shouldn't the decoration by example be a "standard" one?03:51
mjg59seb128: gconf really ought to be the default, I think03:51
mjg59And then the others should be in the default gconf schema03:51
seb128mjg59: right, makes sense03:51
mjg59Except this will irritate KDE users03:51
seb128bah03:51
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=== Hobbsee looks in
seb128having compiz doing nothing by default irritate everybody I would say03:52
Hobbseetrue that03:52
mjg59seb128: FWIW, I believe RH are shipping compiz in preference to the composited metacity03:53
mjg59Also, composition currently degrades 3D performance and breaks Xv on most hardware03:53
seb128mjg59: I don't think we want to do that by default for edgy03:53
mjg59seb128: Indeed03:53
mjg59But I think it's worth a main inclusion report03:54
mjg59Since it all works now03:54
seb128mjg59: but xorg with aiglx and metacity built with it (that's a runtime option then) should be fine03:54
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mjg59seb128: Sure03:54
seb128though I would not say "it all works now"03:56
seb128I managed to crash xorg like 5 times in 10 min by trying to run compiz03:56
rodarvusit "works" on my machine03:56
rodarvusjust slow as hell03:56
seb128and it's not-usable slow now when it runs (though it was fast one)03:56
seb128I don't get why it was fast on the first try though03:56
rodarvusmjg59, btw, we were discussing enabling Composite extension by default last Thursday, and just a few hours later you uploaded xor-server with Composition enabled - talk about good timing :)03:58
rodarvusbtw, there are at least two patches for xorg-server (and one for mesa) that might make sense to be applied, but I won't have much time for them, this/next week03:59
rodarvushere -> http://people.freedesktop.org/~krh/compiz-on-aiglx/03:59
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seb128rodarvus: what are the patches for?04:05
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rodarvusI haven't tested them, so I can't say if they work. but in theory, one fixes the 'GL_ARB_fragment_program is missing' issue, other two are supposed to just make aiglx work "better" out of the box.04:07
seb128better like faster? :)04:08
mjg59rodarvus: We've got the include inferiors one, the others ought to be good as well04:09
rodarvusthere is one for copySubBuffer which sounds promissing, but I wonder if it will break 'nvidia' and 'fglrx'04:10
seb128"$ glxgears 04:10
seb128libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b04:10
seb128*********************************WARN_ONCE*********************************04:10
seb128File radeon_mm.c function radeon_mm_alloc line 21604:10
seb128Ran out of GART memory!04:10
seb128Please consider adjusting GARTSize option.04:10
seb128***************************************************************************04:10
seb128Error: Could not get dma buffer... exiting"04:10
seb128hum04:10
seb128rodarvus: is that known? :)04:10
mjg59seb128: Is that with the compositor running?04:11
seb128no04:11
mjg59Ah, ok04:11
seb128I've metacity --replaced it04:11
seb128it's unusably slow04:11
seb128now I'm trying to figure why it's slow, since it can be fast (it was on the first try)04:12
mjg59seb128: Yeah, removing blur makes it much, *much* faster04:12
mvo_I tried to test it today too, but I don't have working agpgart on my amd64/nforce3-250/r200 system :/04:13
=== mvo_ also just got a error from the wiki, very strange
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zyg1bye, I'm going home04:36
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seb128mjg59: right, without blur it works great04:39
seb128mjg59: so gconf by default and blur not listed would be nice ;)04:39
pygisiretart, poke?04:43
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pygisivang, poke?04:48
seb128mjg59: thank you for the help to get that working04:50
mjg59seb128: No problem04:54
seb128mjg59: do you know if there is a place with wnck patches by example to get compiz integration better?04:55
mjg59seb128: Not that I know of04:56
mjg59It does seem a touch broken04:56
seb128mjg59: things like the desktop switcher applet and the shortcuts seem to not be happy with compiz04:56
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mvo_keybuk made it into the news: http://www.golem.de/0608/47429.html05:11
slomomvo_: he was already everywhere :)05:12
zulbut now in germany..:)05:12
LarstiQis there really a markt for German news?05:13
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mjrprobably in Germany?05:14
pygiivoks, meeting today?05:15
ivokspygi: yes05:15
LarstiQmjr: hmm, I shudder at Dutch it news, it's really bad05:15
=== pygi will try to attend
LarstiQmjr: perhaps .de has more competent reporters05:15
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_ionWhich are the sites with news about upstart? I only know about OSnews.05:15
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Hobbsee_ion: planet.ubuntu.com05:19
HiddenWolf_ion: uh, I'm sure it'll get publicity when it's actually debugged, working and in main. :)05:19
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Simirain which repository can I find wine?05:37
gnomefreakSimira: universe 05:38
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Simirathanks05:38
seb128Simira: apt-cache policy package05:38
seb128Simira: or "apt-cache madison package"05:39
seb128or apt-cache show package and look the Filename ;)05:39
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janimoKamion: hi, is it you who can get an a11y menu entry on the xubuntu desktop CD? should I file a bug on ubuntu-cdimage?05:56
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jdong_mvo: ping?06:06
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MagnusRxlyskom06:23
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mattnhi06:33
mattncan anybody help me with a valgrind problem?06:33
mattni always get the message: valgrind: mmap(0x80C8000, 303087616) failed in UME.06:34
mattnwhen trying to use the valgrind deb that comes with ubuntu06:34
mattni'm calling via: valgrind --tool=memcheck --leak-check=yes --show-reachable=yes --num-callers=20 --track-fds=yes ./ufo run +set vid_fullscreen 0 +set vid_grabmouse 0 +set developer 106:35
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ograMithrandir, around ? 07:06
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ZdraI read somewhere that gnome-terminal has real transparency when compositor is present... I'm running edgy with xcompmgr and I don't get real trans... it that normal ?07:36
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desrtZdra; you can transset the entire window07:43
desrtZdra; but in order to get proper "real" transparency you'd need to have g-t paint its background with an rgba colour... which afaik it currently doesn't support doing07:44
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Zdradesrt: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34537807:49
Ubug2Gnome bug 345378 in general "real transparency" [Enhancement,Resolved: fixed]  07:49
Zdrafound the bug with the patch commited to g-t07:49
desrt+gboolean terminal_window_uses_argb_visual (TerminalWindow *window);07:50
desrti see :)07:50
desrtwell07:50
desrtthis was only committed last month07:50
desrtso unless you're running CVS HEAD or edgy or something you won't have this functionality07:51
ogramjg59, i have a weird problem with usplash and ltsp07:51
ograseems the login manager doesnt get the keyboard input 07:52
ograi have to switch to tty1 and back to make it work07:52
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Zdradesrt: I'm running edgy and I don't get the functionality :(07:53
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desrtodd?07:55
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Tonio_hello08:05
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Mithrandirogra: around for a little bit now, yes.08:18
jdong_who should I talk to about getting XFS whipped up to shape for Edgy?08:21
jdong_our edgy kernel suffers from the directory corruption bug, and the userspace tools are all out of date08:21
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LarstiQjdong_: partly kernel team then?08:22
jdong_LarstiQ: what's a good way of reaching them... launchpad is apparently pretty ignored :-/08:24
crimsun#-kernel.08:24
LarstiQor https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team08:26
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bddebianLarstiQ!!  Did you look at diacanvas2 yet? :-)08:41
LarstiQbddebian: yup!08:41
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LarstiQfeh, it's clean target also fails08:42
bddebianLarstiQ: Really?  Any luck? :-)08:42
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LarstiQbddebian: not yet, other than confirming it also fails for me :)08:43
bddebianHeh08:43
bddebianLarstiQ: Blame seb128, it's easier ;-P08:43
tsengez gtk boog08:43
bddebianez pygobject b00g08:43
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imbrandonjdong_: i was just stopin the flood , come on back 08:55
jdong_imbrandon: I will, give me a sec08:55
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bluefoxicysomeone is requesting a security notice RSS feed09:12
tsenghttp://rss.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.security.announce09:15
bddebianWhat, someone was requesting a ball gag for bluefoxicy? ;-P09:17
bluefoxicytseng:  very nice.09:19
bluefoxicybddebian:  .... ball gag.  o.o09:20
Seveasbluefoxicy, media.ubuntu-nl.org/rss09:21
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Seveashmm -- the scurity feeds are still on ubuntu-nl.org/files/09:23
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bddebianbluefoxicy: :-)09:27
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kikohey there09:45
kikohow's the UK bank holiday going?09:45
bluefoxicyHi kiko09:46
rodarvuscrimsun, ping09:46
LaserJockwhat's a bank holiday?09:46
BurgworkLaserJock, stat09:46
bluefoxicyit's when banks stop operating for a day I think09:46
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kikoso here's a silly question09:47
kikoI have install linux-image-686 and linux-image-38609:47
kikohowever the 686's version is behind the 386 version.09:48
kikois that reasonable?09:48
jdongno...09:48
jdongyou should have linux-686 installed09:48
desrtmaybe you installed the 386 version at a time the -686 one was waiting to build09:48
jdongand it should pull in the latest linux-image-2.6.15-whatever-68609:48
crimsunrodarvus: pong09:49
rodarvuscrimsun, I'll ask in privmsg09:49
kikohmmm09:50
kikolet me pull in updated index files09:50
pygisiretart, poke?09:53
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jcolewhat is the debian installer irc room?09:58
jcolenm wrong server!10:01
bluefoxicy<kiko> however the 686's version is behind the 386 version.10:03
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bluefoxicymdz was talking about eliminating everything but 686 (386 is really a 486 kernel) and renaming 386 to 'generic'10:04
bluefoxicybut I think the plan was to move 'generic' up from 486 to 586 if that route was taken; and I don't think there'd be some half-ass transition w/ 386 going and then getting renamed etc etc.  Actually I'm wondering where that's going10:05
bluefoxicyanyone know what conclusion they reached for that?10:05
jdongidn, but the generic kernel better support SMP :)10:05
bluefoxicyit will; smp has zero overhead.10:06
HiddenWolfbluefoxicy: it already does in dapper, afaik10:06
bluefoxicyHiddenWolf:  I didn't see that; that sounds kind of invasive to backport to dapper10:06
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bluefoxicyit's a major infrastructure change10:06
HiddenWolfbluefoxicy: there are no -smp kernels in dapper, never have been10:07
HiddenWolfat least, don't think so10:07
bluefoxicythe method in which kernels are built and distributed goes from having 486, 686, k7, and p4 to just generic (586)10:07
jdongHiddenWolf: but 386 is not smp10:07
LaserJockI thought the idea was to just to go to 1 generic kernel for x8610:07
LaserJockand I thought they were smp in Dapper too, :/10:07
bluefoxicyHiddenWolf:  -SMP was gotten rid of a while back, since it has no overhead it's just built into all kernels10:07
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jdongbluefoxicy: except -38610:07
bluefoxicyHiddenWolf:  I was talking about what LaserJock is saying.10:08
bluefoxicyjdong:  yeah10:08
jcolelike knoppix... uses an smp kernel10:08
jcolewhy doesn't -386 have smp?10:09
bluefoxicya few drivers break when built for 486 or something.10:09
Chipzzbluefoxicy: yes, and some drivers dont work at all with -smp :P10:10
bluefoxicyChipzz:  I thought the smp kernel for 586 and 686 would have smp and those drivers would work10:10
Chipzzbluefoxicy: some companies just don't care about "border cases" like smp10:10
bluefoxicyChipzz:  nods.  Well, in the future when we have 16 core chips they will.10:12
jdongif that "we" implies that I'll have it, then I'm in :)10:13
bluefoxicyAMD Athlon 64 X16 1.2GHz, runs at 10C, 16.8GHz total raw power, $150 in 2015, "Back in my day we had a 686... it only had one core... and we still built Ubuntu for 486..."10:14
Chipzzso I wonder how smp as a default is a good thing :P10:14
jdongwell, having a non-smp kernel or a way to turn off SMP is a necessity10:14
jdong*cough* damn ralink drivers *cough*10:14
jdongactually, at the moment ipw3945 isn't spectacular with SMP10:15
bluefoxicyjdong:  I'm looking at newegg, it's $150 for an Athlon 64 X2 2GHz and around $50-$80 for a microATX board that has SATA2 and 4 DDR400 slots and PCI-e 16 lane and nforce 41010:15
bluefoxicyas long as you live a decade or so longer I'm sure you'll get one ;)10:15
jdongbluefoxicy: yeah, x2's are really cheap now that intel pwned them :)10:15
bluefoxicyhah10:15
jdongmy neighbor has a socket 939, and he's just eyeing the price slashes10:16
=== jdong has a core duo, which keeps him happy :)
LaserJockwell, considering my pbuilder machine is a 1.3Ghz P4 with 256MB of ram, I'd be happy with just about anything10:17
jdong:)10:17
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bluefoxicyjdong:  I need to upgrade my brain to something dual core, the workload is getting too heavy ;P10:18
LaserJockmore RAM!10:18
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  actually that's what I'm up to now10:18
LaserJockmy problem is the brain IO is really slow10:18
bluefoxicyLaserJock: http://bluefox.kicks-ass.org/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php/Project_Steel:Design  re, my silly personal projects10:19
tsengLaserJock: i loose things moving stuff across the system bus to cache10:19
jdongbluefoxicy: SMP-enabled brain.... sounds like bipolar if you ask me :)10:19
tsengLaserJock: never gets through to the cpu10:19
=== bluefoxicy has not notated down the use of high-end xcanaries on there
LaserJocktseng: mhm, I fell you there10:19
jdongon a more non-OT note, how long does it typically take ubuntu-archive to respond?10:20
LaserJockbluefoxicy: I have no idea what that is, but it's got lots of stuff10:20
jdongI've got 25 or so backports in launchpad with their name stamped on em :)10:20
LaserJockjdong: depends on if ubuntu-archive is on vacation10:20
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  it's me pushing the "glibc is a pile of crap" mentality because I hate their allocator.10:20
LaserJockor busy putting out a knot cd10:20
LaserJocketc.10:20
jcolebtw, how does one get the arch? 686 386 k7 etc.?10:20
jdongLaserJock: at the moment?10:20
jdongjcole: I'd look at /proc/cpuinfo for that information10:21
jdongjcole: uname -m can get you 386 vs 586/686, but not k710:21
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jcolei don't see 68610:21
jcolethe debian installer selects the right kernel10:22
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jcolehow?10:22
jdongLaserJock: does poking ubuntu-archive people help speed up the process, or just irritate them?10:23
LaserJockjdong: perhaps a bit of both10:23
LaserJockI think they have a pretty good handle on what they need to do10:23
LaserJockthey just need to find time10:23
LaserJockbut I think many people have been on vacation10:24
LaserJockwhich is what I suspect is the issue in your case10:24
trappistThere are hundreds if not thousands of bugs filed against old releases where the most recent activity is something like "is it still a problem on dapper", unanswered for several months.  It it useful or correct to close these with appropriate comments?10:32
LaserJockI try to either confirm them or not myself before doing that10:33
trappistLaserJock: yeah me too if possible, but I'm mostly seeing stuff that one guy reported once against breezy or hoary or warty and we haven't heard about the bug again since, in situations nobody else could reproduce.10:35
Burgworktrappist, ask dholbach10:35
LaserJocktrappist: sound like a good candidate for a closing with a nice note ;-)10:35
Burgworktrappist, there is a time, but my brain is not remembering the specific time10:36
trappistLaserJock: I'm asking because there are like bajillions of these things10:36
trappistBurgwork: last time I asked a similar question, I was told a month.  I'm asking again now because of the sheer volume of these bugs that I'd like to clear out.10:36
Burgworkyep10:36
Burgworkdo a few and then ask seb128 or dholbach for a check10:37
Burgworkthen go to town10:37
LaserJocktrappist: honestly I'd ask dholbach or sfllaw before you go on a big bug closing campaign10:37
trappistLaserJock: sounds like a plan.  I don't know either of those people.  wait for em to show up here, or what?10:37
sfllawtrappist: Hi.10:37
sfllaw:)10:37
trappisthey!10:37
trappistsfllaw: did you see the original question?10:37
LaserJocktrappist: #ubuntu-bugs is also good ;-)10:37
sfllawYeah.10:38
trappistI'm in there.  didn't think to ask there.10:38
sfllawThe general policy is that if someone asks for information and there's no response in a month, then we reject the bug.10:38
sfllawBut for things like this...10:38
sfllawIt's probably not a good idea to close them unless you're pretty sure it's no longer an issue.10:38
sfllawOr if the bug is so vague that you'd never be able to reproduce it without help from the original submitter.10:39
sfllawIf in doubt, leave it open.10:39
trappistsfllaw: I could probably kill many hundreds of bugs with a 3-month threshold, and on most of them there's no way to be sure it's no longer an issue, unless assuming that no activity for so long means it's no longer an issue counts10:39
trappistsfllaw: ok that's pretty much been my approach.  thanks!10:40
Burgworksfllaw, is it worth having a bug open for more than 3 months?10:40
Burgworka needinfo one, tbc10:40
sfllawBurgwork: If there's no info at all and it's still in Needs Info, then we close in one month.10:41
sfllawtrappist: You can use some judgement.10:41
sfllawtrappist: For instance, if someone says something is broken, and then doesn't reply for three months, it probably unbroke.10:41
sfllawtrappist: If it's something minor, then you might leave it as a record.10:41
sfllawtrappist: You can also ask people in #ubuntu-bugs to look at edge cases.10:42
sfllawtrappist: That's the channel the BugSquad uses for bug triage and stuff.10:42
trappistsfllaw: excellent.  and for the ones that pretty obviously ought to be closed, the correct status is rejected, rather than assuming fix released?10:45
sfllawtrappist: Rejected.  You should subscribe and leave a nice note saying "We closed this bug because there was no response.  But just reply to reopen."10:46
trappistreplying will reopen?  that's good, I didn't know that.10:46
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sfllawtrappist: Well, no.10:58
QuestionMarkCounHi *10:58
sfllawtrappist: You'll have to set it to something sensible.10:58
trappistah.10:59
QuestionMarkCounKamion, sorry for annyoing you again with a cdimage question... 10:59
QuestionMarkCounI have modified some udebs, apt-setup e. g., and putted them in a separate section of my archive (not main or restricted)11:01
QuestionMarkCounhow do I get deb11:01
QuestionMarkCoundebian-installer, to use my own udebs from the other section?11:02
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z\hello some italian developer herE ?12:05
z\*here*12:05
shackanz\,  you might have better luck if you ask in #ubuntu-it12:08

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