| z\ | tnx . | 12:09 |
|---|---|---|
| jdong | boy is archive.ubuntu.com slow today :-/ | 12:13 |
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| Kamion | jdong: we've been having a weekend + UK bank holiday after getting back from the sprint - cut us a *little* slack please :) | 12:23 |
| Kamion | jdong: it's Keybuk's archive day tomorrow, so I'm sure he'll catch up for you | 12:23 |
| jdong | Kamion: sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude/impatient.... this is really the first time I've worked with ubuntu-archive... just curious | 12:24 |
| Kamion | typically archive processing does not happen on weekends | 12:24 |
| jdong | I'm patient | 12:24 |
| Kamion | unless it's world-shattering urgent | 12:24 |
| jdong | but... it's a new version of k3b... it's gotta be world-shattering urgent :) | 12:24 |
| Kamion | we caught up on most things except syncs and some of the promotion/demotion details on Friday | 12:24 |
| === jdong passes time by converting laptop to XFS :) | ||
| lucas | infinity: ping | 12:26 |
| lucas | infinity: the status of ruby on powerpc hasn't changed. it has been broken for months now. | 12:26 |
| lucas | I can't do anything about it since it requires buildd access to investigate (the same packages work fine in debian) | 12:27 |
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| z\ | fabbione PING | 12:34 |
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| bddebian | Howdy | 01:08 |
| shackan | z\, he's in vacation for two weeks, what are you looking for? | 01:09 |
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| z\ | shackan i have to talk with fabio about a possible bug. | 01:11 |
| z\ | and i should to talk with fabio about my possible employment. | 01:13 |
| shackan | at canonical? | 01:13 |
| z\ | at home | 01:13 |
| z\ | http://www.ubuntu.com/employment#head-ee181be4e2f101318f548b6e62a74711085e9224 | 01:13 |
| z\ | :D | 01:13 |
| shackan | oh | 01:14 |
| shackan | so you're a.. security expert? | 01:15 |
| z\ | i work in this sector. | 01:15 |
| shackan | I see | 01:15 |
| z\ | where ? | 01:15 |
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| treitter | is there a "best practice" for a package that only _partially_ conflicts with another? (ie, overwriting one of its config files)? | 01:16 |
| grexk | hello everyone | 01:16 |
| treitter | I want to create a package that installs some config files in /etc, but I don't want to have to patch a million different packages, just to overwrite their default config files | 01:17 |
| z\ | shackan sorry.. | 01:17 |
| z\ | but why u talk about me in english if u r italian ? | 01:17 |
| Burgwork | z\, because this is a mostly english channel? | 01:18 |
| treitter | I'll second Burgwork | 01:18 |
| z\ | ok. | 01:18 |
| treitter | z | 01:18 |
| treitter | z\: I hope that doesn't sound like we're against people speaking their own language | 01:19 |
| crimsun | treitter: it's not allowed to just prance upon another's conffile. | 01:19 |
| z\ | uhm, ok. | 01:19 |
| treitter | crimsun: of course. But is there any easier way? | 01:19 |
| LaserJock | crimsun: "prance"? I was thinking "clober" but you were more eloquent as usual | 01:20 |
| treitter | z\: but the downside of people speaking in another language is that other people who might want to participate might not be able to | 01:20 |
| crimsun | treitter: call a helper method to adjust the conffile owned by the package you're prancing upon | 01:20 |
| treitter | crimsun: in postinst? | 01:20 |
| crimsun | treitter: does the package [whose conffile is affected] offer a means of adjusting its conffile? | 01:21 |
| treitter | crimsun: not sure. Where/how would it offer this means? | 01:21 |
| crimsun | treitter: section 10.7.4, Policy | 01:23 |
| treitter | crimsun: thanks! I'll check it out | 01:23 |
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| desrt | someone ought to poke this bug: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/57736 | 01:47 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 57736 in openssl "HW engines are missing" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] | 01:47 |
| === desrt will confirm it at least -- but someone who knows ought to pay it some attention | ||
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| desrt | keybuk might be one such person | 01:51 |
| tseng | possibly. | 01:51 |
| desrt | Keybuk; i've found that you muck around with openssh from time to time. are you also an openssl type? | 01:51 |
| Keybuk | err | 01:51 |
| Keybuk | I know how to connect the two bits together | 01:52 |
| desrt | that's a very strong no. | 01:52 |
| desrt | i think i'm confusing Keybuk with Kamion again | 01:52 |
| desrt | sorry. | 01:52 |
| Keybuk | yes | 01:52 |
| Keybuk | Kamion is the openssh maintainer | 01:52 |
| jdub | desrt: dude, you have met them in real life! | 01:53 |
| desrt | i have this problem when i talk to people on irc i often don't think about who they actually are | 01:53 |
| Keybuk | now, was desrt the short, fat, loud one? | 01:54 |
| Keybuk | or the tall, cute one with the long hair? | 01:54 |
| desrt | tall and with long hair, certainly | 01:54 |
| desrt | perhaps also loud | 01:54 |
| Burgwork | whiprush, you need to educate the Edubuntu people all about profiles, etc. As they are looking for stuff sabayon doesn't offer, but don't have a clear roadmap | 01:54 |
| desrt | Burgundavia was the cute one | 01:55 |
| whiprush | Burgwork: I can talk to ogra at the ltsp hackathon in a few weeks | 01:55 |
| Burgwork | desrt, not hard. Keybuk is the crazy one. Kamion is the sane and stable one | 01:55 |
| Burgwork | whiprush, excellent, but ogra isn't doing the work. LaserJock and cbx33 are | 01:55 |
| Keybuk | gee, thanks | 01:55 |
| whiprush | Burgwork: ok, you have a link to a spec or something? | 01:56 |
| Burgwork | edubuntu-dynamic-menus | 01:56 |
| whiprush | ta | 01:56 |
| LaserJock | whiprush: but I've had to totally redo the implementation | 01:56 |
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| LaserJock | as sabayon hasn't worked out for what we'd like to do | 01:56 |
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| tseng | Burgwork: you mean between releases Kamion is sane and stable | 01:57 |
| whiprush | the idea looks neat LaserJock | 01:57 |
| tseng | Burgwork: i wouldnt anger him after his 15th cd build | 01:57 |
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| Keybuk | Kamion is certainly more conservative than I | 01:59 |
| Keybuk | I wouldn't say he was either sane nor stable :p | 01:59 |
| Keybuk | unless he's a special kind of sane that's the opposite of insanity, rather than simply its abscence | 01:59 |
| LaserJock | and seems to play a mean Mao | 02:00 |
| jcole | i get this installing kubuntu -> /usr/share/debconf/confmodule: line 42: 3: Bad file descriptor | 02:00 |
| Burgwork | tseng, ineed | 02:00 |
| jcole | ctrl-alt-f2 and killing dpkg lets it continue | 02:00 |
| === Keybuk giggles at the "when will upstart be in Fedora" mail | ||
| whiprush | upstart works for me on the X40 if you're looking for feedback | 02:01 |
| desrt | jdub; what kind of cash does the foundation have kicking around? | 02:01 |
| jcole | his is the offending line --> echo "$@" >&3 | 02:02 |
| jdub | desrt: USD | 02:02 |
| desrt | er. i meant more like the order of magnatude than the variety | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | whiprush: yeah, it has worked for everyone. I'm quite shocked actually | 02:03 |
| desrt | *magnitude | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | the only thing I don't understand is why upstart is so much quicker at shutting down the machine than sysvinit | 02:03 |
| whiprush | heh | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | I worked out why it was faster at booting | 02:03 |
| jdub | desrt: do you really expect a real answer to that? | 02:03 |
| desrt | jdub; ya. i do. | 02:03 |
| jdub | desrt: ok, your expectations are not in line with reality. :-) | 02:04 |
| desrt | the answer should be a solid "none" or otherwise an approximate amount | 02:04 |
| Keybuk | desrt: that number was public at the time of announcement | 02:04 |
| desrt | but in any case it should be public knowledge | 02:04 |
| Keybuk | google://ubuntu+foundation+dollars appears to give you the same answer multiple times | 02:04 |
| Keybuk | $10 M | 02:04 |
| desrt | oh crap. not that foundation | 02:05 |
| desrt | the gnome on | 02:05 |
| gnomefreak | iirc it was 10 mil to ubuntu 10 mil to foundation at start | 02:05 |
| jdub | desrt: it is reported publically, but not generally discussed on random irc channels | 02:05 |
| desrt | same story for gnome too, i guess? | 02:06 |
| Keybuk | whiprush: is it faster at shutting down for you too? | 02:06 |
| jdub | desrt: i'm answering for gnome | 02:06 |
| desrt | gotcha. | 02:06 |
| desrt | so how do i find out? | 02:06 |
| jdub | desrt: i don't believe anyone here can answer for TUF | 02:06 |
| jdub | desrt: mail board-list | 02:06 |
| jdub | desrt: though you'll obviously get questions as to why | 02:07 |
| gnomefreak | gnome isnt really a non-profit org. so as to release that as public info is not a have to | 02:07 |
| sladen | Keybuk: did you do the upload so that upstart is now default as /sbin/init ? | 02:08 |
| whiprush | Keybuk: I can't tell either way, though I have not measured it. | 02:08 |
| Keybuk | sladen: not yet, still fiddling with the shutdown tool | 02:08 |
| Keybuk | deciding which of shutdown, halt, reboot, poweroff will be the "canonical" one and which are ubuntu-compat-sysv fodder | 02:09 |
| Keybuk | I vaguely feel that since reboot is the syscall, that one should be, but meh | 02:09 |
| sladen | Keybuk: make a new one called sys_reboot and overload that | 02:10 |
| Keybuk | eh? | 02:10 |
| LaserJock | whiprush: get my pm? | 02:11 |
| sladen | Keybuk: sys_reboot is the name of the syscall | 02:11 |
| whiprush | LaserJock: I responded, I think it's me not registering with freenode again | 02:11 |
| sladen | Keybuk: or "yes", I agree that reboot should be the canonical binary | 02:11 |
| LaserJock | whiprush: ah, well maybe #edubuntu real quick? | 02:11 |
| whiprush | sure | 02:11 |
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| sladen | Keybuk: I think you should provide redhat style 'service' compatibility | 02:12 |
| tseng | sladen: /usr/bin/service ? | 02:12 |
| tseng | or sbin rather | 02:12 |
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| sladen | tseng: yup. the red hat jockeys love it; it's also marginally more nice (as in "making it simpler for the user") than either type 'initctl' or 'etc/init.d/foo' | 02:13 |
| tseng | maybe we could make a vfs too | 02:14 |
| === jdub spanks tseng | ||
| tseng | so they can cd to /etc/sysconfig/wtf/network/network-scripts/network-interfaces/maybe-stuff-here | 02:15 |
| === tseng kids, 'service' is nice :) | ||
| jdub | /roflcopter/ | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | sladen: how do you mean? | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | I'd vaguely figured on having /usr/sbin/start and /usr/sbin/stop | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | start apache | 02:16 |
| Keybuk | stop smoking | 02:16 |
| Keybuk | initctl is just a temporary thing | 02:16 |
| sladen | keybuk: start and stop are quite major pieces of namespace, especially when you add restart and reload | 02:17 |
| Keybuk | sladen: true, but then so is init | 02:17 |
| Keybuk | and I think once you have init, you get to be arrogant about your namespace | 02:17 |
| sladen | Keybuk: and especially if (as was talked about) 'start', 'stop', 'wankbadger' become an arbitary first parameter | 02:17 |
| Keybuk | "wankbadger" ? | 02:18 |
| sladen | Keybuk: the one I'd really like is MacOSX 'open' | 02:18 |
| bddebian | haha | 02:18 |
| Keybuk | open? | 02:18 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'foobar' 'moo' 'crack' 'speeeeefial' | 02:18 |
| Keybuk | eh? | 02:18 |
| Keybuk | I'm clearly not following you here | 02:19 |
| sladen | Keybuk: Mac OSX (a modern Unix-based OS made by a company called Apple), has a command called 'open' that is performs what ever the equivalent of a double-click (eg. actually a mime-match) would be. 'open foldername' brings up the equivalent of nautilus, 'open foobar.mp3' brings up itunes, 'open moo.pdf' brings up the doc viewer | 02:20 |
| Keybuk | alias open=gnome-open | 02:20 |
| sladen | Keybuk: rocking. | 02:20 |
| Keybuk | I didn't follow the foobar, moo, crack, bit | 02:21 |
| sladen | Keybuk: $x | 02:21 |
| Keybuk | what's $x ? | 02:21 |
| sladen | Keybuk: defininate indefinate | 02:21 |
| sladen | Keybuk: "foobar" | 02:21 |
| Keybuk | whuh? | 02:21 |
| === sladen rewinds | ||
| Keybuk | what has all this got to do with upstart? | 02:21 |
| gnomefreak | Keybuk: who is a good person to ping about FF in edgy? | 02:22 |
| Keybuk | gnomefreak: iwj | 02:22 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'start' and 'stop' are major pieces of namespace, check? | 02:22 |
| tseng | gnomefreak: iwj | 02:22 |
| gnomefreak | figured as much ty guys | 02:22 |
| Keybuk | sladen: right, no package has ever dared use them as binary names | 02:22 |
| Keybuk | I think init has the right to :p | 02:22 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'reload' and 'restart' are also names that make sense, check? | 02:23 |
| Keybuk | no | 02:23 |
| Keybuk | neither of those are in the upstart job life cycle | 02:23 |
| Keybuk | start and stop are very special | 02:23 |
| sladen | Keybuk: s/job life cycle/default state machine/ | 02:23 |
| Keybuk | s/default// | 02:24 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'start' and 'stop' are signals to the state machine | 02:24 |
| Keybuk | right, start and stop are the only two external changes permitted | 02:24 |
| Keybuk | reload, restart, kickupthebum, etc. don't need to be represented in the state machine, because they don't form part of the life cycle -- they're just separate actions (and we're off the spec here, as I deliberately omitted them from it <g>) | 02:25 |
| sladen | Keybuk: what's your proposed suggestion (whether it's in the spec or not) for sending arbitrary signals? | 02:27 |
| sladen | oooh, 'signal' is not taken either | 02:28 |
| Keybuk | for reload to make sense in the state machine, it would mean that it would have to be a goal | 02:28 |
| Keybuk | so you'd have "start", "stop" and "reload" | 02:28 |
| sladen | maybe 'kill' should correctly be called 'signal' | 02:28 |
| Keybuk | the reload goal change would need to kill the running process to force a state change, and move the job into the reloading state, which would then be able to have a "reload script" that did some magic to ... oh, oops, we killed the process | 02:29 |
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| Keybuk | so it doesn't really make sense for them to be considered first class properties of a job | 02:29 |
| Keybuk | if you take a gui, there would be pretty toolbar buttons for start and stop | 02:29 |
| Keybuk | but things like "graceful restart" would be on a right-click menu for that job only | 02:30 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'reload' is an arbitary signal (eg. apache may implement it with kill -HUP `cat $pidfile` ) | 02:30 |
| Keybuk | and then you get into messy things like having to be able to ask init for a list of actions on the job, provide translatable descriptions for them, etc. | 02:30 |
| sladen | Keybuk: 'restart' is a goal in the state machine (I think). or is it send(apache,stop), spin(apache,stop), send(apache,start) | 02:31 |
| Keybuk | restart doesn't need to be a goal | 02:31 |
| sladen | Keybuk: eg. the latter | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | just kill the process, but don't change the goal | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | if it's a daemon, it'll go through respawning | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | if it's a task, it'll go stopping/starting | 02:32 |
| sladen | Keybuk: I think that if it /can/ be implemented as a layer on top, then it shouldn't be in the core spec (which is a faily good API design rule) | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | (which you probably don't want) | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | yeah | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | another way of looking at is that you could have /etc/event.d/reload-apache | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | which has | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | on reload-apache | 02:32 |
| Keybuk | script | 02:33 |
| Keybuk | kill -HUP $(pidof --job apache) | 02:33 |
| Keybuk | end script | 02:33 |
| Keybuk | -- | 02:33 |
| sladen | Keybuk: I think for sanity, it should be /etc/upstart.d/apache.reload | 02:33 |
| Keybuk | we settled on event.d :) | 02:34 |
| Keybuk | I'm vaguely avoiding using the word upstart anywhere except in the tarball name | 02:34 |
| Keybuk | the daemon is "init" | 02:34 |
| sladen | Keybuk: it would be nice if the signals for a particular task sorted alphabetically next to each other | 02:34 |
| Keybuk | I'm pretty happy that we can implement signals/actions/etc. on top of the current model | 02:34 |
| Keybuk | like I was able to implement dependencies | 02:34 |
| sladen | Keybuk: apache, apache.start, apache.stop, apache.reload | 02:34 |
| Keybuk | which, to me, suggests the model is simple and flexible enough | 02:35 |
| sladen | Keybuk: yup | 02:35 |
| Keybuk | though I'm not yet happy with the event naming/value | 02:35 |
| Keybuk | the main unhappy is that I want | 02:35 |
| Keybuk | "on apache" to mean "the apache job is running" but "on checkroot" to mean "the checkroot job is stopping" ("has finished") | 02:35 |
| Keybuk | and at the moment, there's no "null" values | 02:36 |
| Keybuk | so you can't do "while default-route is down" | 02:36 |
| Keybuk | because it's not down until it's been up at least once :p | 02:36 |
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| Keybuk | and then there's "on default-route" ... does that mean when it's up, or when it changes, etc.? | 02:37 |
| Keybuk | I suspect the world would have been simpler if I just started off with "string only" events | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | but then I'd've still wanted to generate them for jobs | 02:39 |
| sladen | Keybuk: I just went to the toilet and I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Verb_Object | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | hmm? | 02:40 |
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| sbalneav | Keybuk: saw the upstart stuff, very nice. Will be a HUGE help with diskless, where large chunks of your devices aren't there. | 02:43 |
| lgespee | Keybuk, upstart really looks nice, will it be stable enough to go into Main before Edgy? Or isn't that clear at all at the moment? | 02:44 |
| Keybuk | lgespee: I don't see why not; it seems very stable | 02:44 |
| lifeless | plus, its edgy. | 02:44 |
| lifeless | if its not bleeding, its not ready for edgy | 02:44 |
| bddebian | heh | 02:44 |
| zul | edgy makes me want to gouge out my eyes its so bleeding | 02:45 |
| lgespee | Keybuk: wow, really great, looks very promising | 02:45 |
| zul | or something like that | 02:45 |
| lgespee | zul, it's like living on the edge ;) | 02:45 |
| sladen | Keybuk: SVO -> Subject, Verb, Object. Lingustics, Sentence construction. It may help with both the command line tools and the config file format | 02:45 |
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| lgespee | Keybuk, as a Ubuntu-NL teammember I heard soem rumours from teh Ubuntu-NL leader, but didn't actually believe it :D | 02:46 |
| lgespee | well great to know, I won't bother you all any further, keep up the great work, bye | 02:46 |
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| sladen | Keybuk: if you are converting "on apache" -> "the apache job is running" -> "apache is running" | 02:47 |
| Keybuk | I'm starting to wonder whether we shouldn't split the events | 02:48 |
| Keybuk | so reserve "on" for system events, "at" for time events, etc. | 02:48 |
| Keybuk | but that bloats the config | 02:48 |
| sladen | Keybuk: if the format needs explanation then perhaps it's wrong :) | 02:49 |
| Keybuk | right | 02:50 |
| Keybuk | right now, I need to explain how it works, so it's wrong | 02:50 |
| Keybuk | and I really don't like that people can do "initctl trigger shutdown" | 02:50 |
| Keybuk | because that doesn't do the right thing | 02:50 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: So can we tie upstart in with gcc? | 02:50 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: umm? | 02:50 |
| mjg59 | So your system gets rebuilt on every boot? | 02:50 |
| Keybuk | heh | 02:50 |
| bddebian | w00t | 02:51 |
| sladen | that would get the gentoo guys on board | 02:53 |
| Keybuk | start script | 02:53 |
| Lathiat | sure fire way of getting the gentoo guys to use it ;) | 02:53 |
| Lathiat | haha | 02:53 |
| Keybuk | cd /src | 02:53 |
| Keybuk | make | 02:53 |
| Keybuk | end script | 02:53 |
| Keybuk | exec /sbin/binary | 02:53 |
| Lathiat | -Olatest_hardware_from_this_boot | 02:53 |
| sladen | Keybuk: start shell script start python script? | 02:54 |
| Keybuk | sladen: shell | 02:54 |
| sladen | Keybuk: why not make it really easy, take it out of the config file and do the dpkg thing of have thing.start | 02:54 |
| Keybuk | sladen: what happens when you need to have multiple thing.start ? | 02:55 |
| Keybuk | people would confuse thing.start with "run this when thing starts" | 02:55 |
| Keybuk | so you'd have someone not thing shipping thing.start | 02:55 |
| sladen | Keybuk: "would confuse" ? | 02:55 |
| Keybuk | right | 02:56 |
| Keybuk | so right now, it's obvious that the "start script" bit in /etc/event.d/udev is something for the udev author to use | 02:56 |
| sladen | action start, action stop | 02:56 |
| Keybuk | if it were a separate file, e.g. /etc/event.d/udev.start you could end up with some other package trying to ship a udev.start script so that it's run before udev starts | 02:56 |
| Keybuk | when it should be a separate job entirely that happens to be run when udev is starting | 02:56 |
| sladen | Keybuk: in which case that would break the policy | 02:57 |
| sladen | Keybuk: technical solutions to policy issues and policy solutions to technical issues generally don't work | 02:58 |
| Keybuk | true but policy issues are often caused by bad technical solutions | 02:59 |
| sladen | Keybuk: the only thing that would 'prevent' another package shipping their own '/etc/event.d/udev' would be dpkg complaining that the same file is owned by two packages | 02:59 |
| Keybuk | I'm reasonably sure that upstart needs to be very simple | 02:59 |
| Keybuk | and not allow arbitrary expansion in any number of directions | 02:59 |
| Keybuk | but instead just allow lots of building blocks | 02:59 |
| Keybuk | the more complex levels of interactions one tries to layer on top, the more of a headache one gets figuring out where the deadlocks can lie | 03:00 |
| sladen | start == pre-start, stop == post-start, kill == pre-stop ? | 03:00 |
| Keybuk | err? | 03:00 |
| Keybuk | start = pre-running, stop = post-running | 03:00 |
| Keybuk | there is no kill | 03:00 |
| Keybuk | could rename them pre and post ;) | 03:01 |
| sladen | Keybuk: (thinking of dpkg-style naming of start/stop scripts), there is {pre,post}{inst,rm}. check? | 03:01 |
| sladen | renaming does seem like it might be more accurate | 03:02 |
| Keybuk | I'm thinking that the dpkg-style scripts are not a good design to follow | 03:02 |
| Keybuk | given everyone has to read the manual every time they try and use them | 03:02 |
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| sladen | and people are might be less like to try to run 'pre-start' directly, and especially unlikely to run 'post-start' directly :) | 03:02 |
| sladen | s/like/likely/ | 03:03 |
| Keybuk | you can't run them directly ;) | 03:03 |
| Keybuk | they're in the config file | 03:03 |
| sladen | having them separate would make 'script' and 'exec' redundant | 03:04 |
| Keybuk | no it wouldn't | 03:04 |
| Keybuk | you can exec /path/to/script already if you want | 03:05 |
| sladen | Keybuk: anything that can be done inside script ... endscript or exec "path/filename" could be done with just having "path/filename" exist | 03:05 |
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| Keybuk | then how do you specify path/filename ? | 03:05 |
| sladen | $base = "/etc/event.d/"; $who = "apache"; $action = "pre-start"; $filename = strcat($base,$who,$action); | 03:07 |
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| Keybuk | that only replaces "start script" ... it doesn't replace "script" or "exec" | 03:07 |
| Keybuk | how do you specify the name of the daemon binary to run | 03:07 |
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| sladen | Keybuk: man 2 symlink | 03:08 |
| Keybuk | err, I really don't think we should be symlinking daemons into /etc | 03:08 |
| Keybuk | that's a bad idea | 03:08 |
| sladen | Keybuk: why is that different to specifying the name of an executable in a configuration file, in etc? | 03:09 |
| Keybuk | one can be modified trivially in a text editor | 03:10 |
| Keybuk | one requires heavy filesystem lifting | 03:10 |
| Keybuk | "one file per config option" sounds a bit djbish | 03:10 |
| Robot101 | says the qmail advocate :) | 03:10 |
| sladen | Keybuk: why duplicate existing functionality? | 03:11 |
| Keybuk | sladen: what existing functionality? | 03:11 |
| sladen | Keybuk: databases and filesystems | 03:11 |
| Keybuk | Robot101: I use qmail because I know it | 03:11 |
| Keybuk | I know how it delivers mail, how it works, how to fix it, etc. | 03:12 |
| Keybuk | and I have no pressing desire or need to learn anything else | 03:12 |
| Keybuk | sladen: eh? | 03:12 |
| Keybuk | how have you strayed here? | 03:12 |
| Robot101 | Keybuk: I was just pulling your leg; I use postfix for the same reasons. I'll shut up now. :) | 03:13 |
| Keybuk | I really don't see how "always execs an executable at a fixed path on the filesystem, which means you must place one there or arrange a symlink to the right place" is better than "a line in the config file says what to exec, and provides arguments" | 03:14 |
| Keybuk | e.g. right now you can "exec /sbin/udev --daemon" | 03:14 |
| Keybuk | to do that with your proposal, I'd have to write an /etc/event.d/udev.exec script that had in it | 03:14 |
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| Keybuk | #!/bin/sh -e | 03:15 |
| Keybuk | exec /sbin/udev --daemon | 03:15 |
| sladen | Keybuk: if a symlink would do the job in a transparent fashion (in the less common case) and a shell script would do the job (in the more common case)---both of which are already core kernel functionality; which duplicate (obfuscate) those with 'exec' and 'script...endscript' options in a configuration file? | 03:15 |
| sladen | s/which/why/ | 03:16 |
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| sladen | Keybuk: I'm now coming around to the idea of to "pre-start" exec "/usr/bin/apache" "--daemon" "xyzzy" (or similar) in the config file | 03:20 |
| sladen | Keybuk: maybe I'm just untouched by the 'script' business and the idea of having two (very similar) methods in the config file, both of which can do each other | 03:22 |
| Keybuk | the difference between exec and script is pretty obvious | 03:22 |
| Keybuk | exec runs sh -c exec ... | 03:23 |
| sladen | oh. OH | 03:23 |
| Keybuk | script runs sh /dev/fd/%d and puts the lines up to end script in that | 03:23 |
| sladen | Keybuk: I had assumed 'exec' called 'execve()' | 03:24 |
| sladen | Keybuk: if you're still calling through the shell even for an exec then there isn't even a speed difference in its favour | 03:24 |
| Keybuk | it calls exec() directly if there's no interesting characters in the string | 03:24 |
| Keybuk | so "exec /sbin/udev --daemon" would just do exec({ "/sbin/udev", "--daemon" }), yes | 03:25 |
| sladen | Keybuk: and native exec() would be better as it functions even in the light of no shell | 03:25 |
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| sladen | Keybuk: two codepaths for one command? | 03:25 |
| Keybuk | whereas exec /sbin/udev $FOO would call exec({ "/bin/sh", "-c", "/sbin/udev $FOO" }) | 03:25 |
| Keybuk | *shrug* | 03:25 |
| Keybuk | it seemed to be a copy semantic | 03:26 |
| sladen | Keybuk: just use 'script...endscript' for the secondone! | 03:26 |
| Keybuk | (sysvinit, cron and atd all do the same thing) | 03:26 |
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| Keybuk | the config file offers lots of short cuts | 03:26 |
| Keybuk | mostly because I'm lazy and like to put them in :p | 03:26 |
| Keybuk | e.g. "while FOO is BAR" is identical to "start when FOO is bar\nstop on FOO" | 03:26 |
| shackan_ | FOO and BAR being event identifiers ? | 03:27 |
| Keybuk | FOO being an event name, BAR being an event value | 03:27 |
| sladen | Keybuk: "while FOO is BAR"; do what? | 03:28 |
| shackan_ | real world example for doc-reading impaired ? :) | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | ok | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | so events have values | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | when you change the value of an event, the event is triggered with that value | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | the event is also triggered with no value | 03:28 |
| sladen | while FOO.state == 'stopped' | 03:29 |
| sladen | while FOO.state == 'stopped' do yeild | 03:29 |
| Keybuk | so if I set FOO to BAR, any jobs which have "on FOO" and "when FOO is BAR" will be started | 03:29 |
| Keybuk | uhh, pseudocode won't help me understand it? | 03:29 |
| sladen | Keybuk: but it helps *me* understand it | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | eh | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | FOO doesn't have state | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | it's an event, not a job | 03:30 |
| sladen | Keybuk: then that's an edge, not a level and you should be using 'if' not 'while' | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | "startup" is an event, "default-route is up" is an event | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | on startup | 03:31 |
| sladen | Keybuk: an event does not exist for a length of time, it happens in an instant | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | when default-route is up | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | would be those two equivalents | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | it happens that "while EVENT is VALUE" means your job is started WHEN EVENT is VALUE and stopped ON EVENT (ie whenever it changes to something else) | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | this has already noted to be confusing | 03:31 |
| sladen | Keybuk: a state does exist for a length of time, it is something that is achieved, or reached | 03:32 |
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| Keybuk | which was the beginning of this conversation | 03:32 |
| shackan_ | but the *event name* "default-route is up" does have some *state* information (that is, that the route is up :) | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | right | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | but "startup" doesn't | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | and then there's tricky ones | 03:32 |
| sladen | the event in this case is default-route.up | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | is "writable-filesystems" a one-shot event | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | or should there be a filesystems are writable state ? | 03:33 |
| sladen | so you can simply have on default-route.up | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | stop inventing syntax :p | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | ok ... | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | so what happens if one does "on default-route" instead ? | 03:33 |
| sladen | preferably on default-route.up do something | 03:34 |
| sladen | on default-route.up do start | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | the "do something" is always either "set the goal to start" or "set the goal to stop" | 03:34 |
| sladen | on default-route.down do stop | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | ok ... | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | now reverse that | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | on default-route.down do start | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | on default-route.up do stop | 03:34 |
| Keybuk | when will that get started? | 03:35 |
| sladen | the goal called 'start' will be set when an event goes past called 'default-route.down' | 03:35 |
| shackan_ | so people should call their events like 'mysql-running', 'mysql-updating' etc.., or just use 'mysql' for the event name and then read its state ? | 03:35 |
| Keybuk | right, so it won't get started until the network has come up and gone back down again | 03:35 |
| Keybuk | you'd need on startup do start | 03:36 |
| Keybuk | which may not be a bad thing, as it makes the world more clear | 03:36 |
| Keybuk | you could then have | 03:36 |
| Keybuk | on mysql.starting do start | 03:36 |
| Keybuk | on mysql.running do start | 03:36 |
| sladen | Keybuk: so that is an event, that that is what is currently broken in sysvinit (and worked around by having K??* scripts) | 03:37 |
| Keybuk | the latter could be just "on mysql", which is a different event, but triggered at the same time as running (for services) or stopping (for tasks) | 03:37 |
| shackan_ | so the syntax is <event name>.<event state> ? | 03:37 |
| grexk | I always fail to compile xen-source from edgy to dapper. http://pastebin.com/778461? | 03:37 |
| Keybuk | shackan_: event state is confusing, apparently | 03:37 |
| sladen | Keybuk: on mysql.isrunning() == true: do ... | 03:38 |
| sladen | Keybuk: (ignore the fact that it is puesudo code) | 03:38 |
| sladen | Keybuk: bah, state/event; level/edge; bah | 03:39 |
| Keybuk | ? | 03:39 |
| sladen | Keybuk: yes, "event state is confusing, apparently" | 03:39 |
| sladen | events *happen* on the transition of states | 03:39 |
| Keybuk | job events feel like they want to have state | 03:39 |
| shackan_ | "feel like they want to" ? omg :D | 03:40 |
| sladen | Keybuk: what is a "job event" | 03:40 |
| Keybuk | sladen: the events that occur every time a job changes state | 03:40 |
| Keybuk | maybe that's what I confused | 03:40 |
| shackan_ | let's hope upstart will never feel like willing to format my disks | 03:40 |
| Keybuk | the events should be single-fire things, the state should be in the job machine | 03:41 |
| shackan_ | I totally second the 'events happen on the transition of states' | 03:41 |
| Keybuk | the mysql *job* has state, and fires events when the state changes, which get forgotten once they're processed | 03:41 |
| sladen | shackan_: upstart's job is to get /other/ things to format your disks on its behalf :) | 03:41 |
| Keybuk | on idle | 03:42 |
| Keybuk | mke2fs /dev/root | 03:42 |
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| shackan_ | sladen, I tought its job was to take over the world? :) | 03:42 |
| sladen | shackan_: no, that's ubuntu's job. upstart is merely a means to an end | 03:43 |
| Keybuk | sladen: yeah, I really think events shouldn't have values and grab | 03:43 |
| sladen | Keybuk: seems that, for things to have state, they must have a way of querying if that state is true | 03:43 |
| Keybuk | crap | 03:43 |
| Keybuk | they should just be arbitrary strings | 03:43 |
| Keybuk | which may follow a naming pattern | 03:43 |
| sladen | yes | 03:43 |
| sladen | yes | 03:43 |
| sladen | on each transition, the previous state is left and the next on is entered | 03:45 |
| sladen | stopped -> started | 03:45 |
| shackan_ | o rly? (errrrr, sorry) | 03:45 |
| sladen | stop.left, start.entered. state == started | 03:45 |
| Keybuk | stopping -> starting </pedant> :p | 03:46 |
| shackan_ | sladen, your pseudocode does actually confuse :p | 03:46 |
| sladen | maybe we should s/ing$//;s/ed$//g | 03:46 |
| Keybuk | sladen: that would be incorrect for the state machine | 03:46 |
| Keybuk | the job state has to be an "ing" because it is a present perfect(?) | 03:46 |
| Keybuk | ie. it's what the job is actually doing right now | 03:47 |
| Keybuk | the events could have different names, of course | 03:47 |
| sladen | shackan_: perhaps you could provide psuedocode that does /not/ confuse. I sometimes find your random comments confusing. | 03:47 |
| Keybuk | waiting -> starting | 03:47 |
| Keybuk | starting -> running | 03:47 |
| Keybuk | running-> stopping | 03:47 |
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| Keybuk | stopping -> waiting | 03:47 |
| Keybuk | are the primary transitions | 03:47 |
| sladen | post-stop, pre-start, post-start, pre-stop | 03:48 |
| sladen | yup | 03:49 |
| shackan_ | event are fired during transitions or when states are reached ? | 03:51 |
| shackan_ | +s | 03:51 |
| Keybuk | during transitions | 03:52 |
| Keybuk | waiting => "nothing is happening" | 03:52 |
| Keybuk | starting => "the job's start script (if any) is running" | 03:52 |
| Keybuk | running => "the job's primary process is running" | 03:52 |
| Keybuk | stopping => "the job's stop script (if any) is running" | 03:52 |
| shackan_ | so, if we go A -> B, when the 'on B' trigger will be fired, the current state will still be A ? | 03:53 |
| Keybuk | no, the state will be B, obviously, you went from A -> B :p | 03:54 |
| shackan_ | but you fired the event during the transition, before the state switched to B :) | 03:54 |
| Keybuk | isn't the definition of a transition that the state is switching? | 03:55 |
| === sladen ponders. (mental exercise, rather than suggestion) What if the daemon periodically fired off events stating the current status of each 'job' | ||
| Keybuk | does it need to? | 03:56 |
| lifeless | eww. polling. | 03:56 |
| Keybuk | shackan_: upstart's states are gated | 03:56 |
| shackan_ | ouch, maybe 'transition from A to B' should be a 'transition state' itself? (let's call it C) | 03:57 |
| shackan_ | ok, </crack> | 03:57 |
| Keybuk | you can only move from starting to running if the start script has terminated | 03:57 |
| lifeless | btw, this is very similar to the mswindows service management api in terms of the state stuff | 03:57 |
| sladen | and, on boot, fired off 'is_stopped' events for each of the daemons it knows about | 03:57 |
| Keybuk | which, given the thing that moves the state is the child reaper for the start script, is not surprising :p | 03:57 |
| Keybuk | lifeless: *hides the book under his desk* | 03:57 |
| sladen | Keybuk: so, how do you moved from waiting->starting if the previous transition was not achieved | 03:58 |
| lifeless | Keybuk: :) | 03:58 |
| Keybuk | sladen: you can't be in waiting if the previous transition wasn't achieved? | 03:58 |
| Keybuk | you'd still be in stopping | 03:58 |
| Keybuk | lifeless: it's similar to the design of any sensible service management api | 03:58 |
| Keybuk | by gating the states, we don't need messy interim states | 04:01 |
| sladen | cron has @reboot | 04:02 |
| sladen | I like that syntax | 04:02 |
| Keybuk | at reboot | 04:02 |
| Keybuk | though upstart uses reboot to mean "after jobs have been stopped, and you want to reboot the machine" :p | 04:02 |
| Keybuk | ie. run rc6 currently | 04:02 |
| sladen | so @reboot is actually at boot | 04:03 |
| Keybuk | right | 04:03 |
| sladen | @start /usr/bin/asdf | 04:04 |
| sladen | @stop kill `pidof asdf` | 04:04 |
| Keybuk | that's what current init does | 04:05 |
| Keybuk | and not what upstart does | 04:05 |
| sladen | @bedtime irssi /away night night | 04:05 |
| sladen | Keybuk: I'll think on it over night. Something about the non-heriarchy, multiline config-file without qualifiers is getting my brain | 04:06 |
| sladen | Keybuk: you don't need endscript, there is the \ syntax at the end of the line | 04:07 |
| sladen | Keybuk: or the <<<EOF syntax | 04:07 |
| sladen | both of which cope with escaping | 04:08 |
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| Kamion | sladen: macosx open> isn't that see(1)? | 08:41 |
| Burgundavia | sladen: I need UWN 11 on the fridge, stat ;) | 08:42 |
| jdub | Kamion: pretty much, but using all of osx's happy mime foo (gnome-open would be a more appropriate analogue) | 08:42 |
| Kamion | oh, I always forget that the desktops reinvented the existing mime handling | 08:45 |
| Kamion | I tend to ignore them :) | 08:45 |
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| grexk | Anyone want to check this out http://pastebin.com/778609 | 08:47 |
| jdub | Kamion: i hammered pretty hard to have mailcap compat (or direct use) in gnome - didn't happen. | 08:48 |
| Kamion | grexk: it's polite to tell people what it is rather than expecting them to follow the URL to find out | 08:48 |
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| grexk | sorry | 08:48 |
| dholbach | good morning | 08:50 |
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| Kagou | hi | 08:51 |
| grexk | I can't perfectly compile xen-source-2.6.16 lately, checking launchpad seems it works well with i386? | 08:52 |
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| grexk | or should I just use deb binary from edgy to dapper. | 08:54 |
| HiddenWolf | grexk: edgy uses a newer libc, it's not a good idea to replace that lib. :) | 09:02 |
| HiddenWolf | grexk: what you can do is get the source, build-deps and build it yourself on dapper. | 09:02 |
| grexk | Been doing that but I can't compile it perfectly with make-kpkg:( | 09:04 |
| HiddenWolf | I'm no expert, but I've managed both rhythmbox and gossip with dpkg-buildpackage | 09:05 |
| grexk | no success either:( | 09:05 |
| HiddenWolf | grexk: perhaps you can find help in #ubuntu-kernel? | 09:06 |
| grexk | thanks | 09:06 |
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| sivang | morning all | 09:31 |
| Hobbsee | hey sivang | 09:32 |
| grexk | morning | 09:32 |
| sivang | hey Hobbsee , how are things? | 09:32 |
| Hobbsee | sivang: okay. i keep sleeping thru uni classes, which is kinda bad though. | 09:33 |
| zyga | hello everyone | 09:33 |
| sivang | Hobbsee: don't. Uni is important , trust me | 09:34 |
| Hobbsee | sivang: yes, exactly. | 09:34 |
| === Hobbsee notes that being sick is bad - you miss an incredible amount of work | ||
| sivang | Hobbsee: yes, I recall that from my pre-uni studies. It's like missing a day is roughly as loosing the introduction and the fin abut how for instnace, electromagnetism works... | 09:35 |
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| Hobbsee | sivang: yeah, true | 09:37 |
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| sivang | Hobbsee: and trust me, when you can't present too many credentials for something you want to do, at least having completed a university degree can be considered as one big and demanding project you've done successfuly ;-) | 09:40 |
| Hobbsee | sivang: true that. i dont usually have this problem - just the last couple of weeks. | 09:41 |
| === TheMuso only fell asleep in lectures when we were in rooms that had no natural light, or fresh air. | ||
| sivang | TheMuso: known :-) | 09:46 |
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| dholbach | keybuk, Kamion: could one of you please liberate libtelepathy from binary new (soname change)? | 09:54 |
| \sh | moins | 09:55 |
| rouzic_ausente | alegrate, /me ha vuelto | 09:58 |
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| seb128 | doko: is your mail against closing old "Needs Info" bugs too? | 10:23 |
| doko | seb128: maybe, but I agree with Dennis' reply | 10:26 |
| seb128 | doko: ok, because usually people close old Needs Info without a reply for some timez | 10:27 |
| Hobbsee | doko: in kde-based bugs, often that doesnt make sense - because kde upstream fixes a lot more with each version than they tend to put in their changelogs | 10:27 |
| Hobbsee | they put the major bugfixes in, but they dont put in every little single change, usually | 10:27 |
| Hobbsee | although people should try to reproduce before closing | 10:27 |
| === Hobbsee suspects she's stopped making sense. marketing lecture on behind me. | ||
| doko | marketing what, bugs? ;-P | 10:28 |
| seb128 | Hobbsee: so you close random bugs because they might be fixed by a new version? | 10:28 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: no, of course not | 10:28 |
| seb128 | Hobbsee: usually the way it works it that you verify that the bug is fixed before closing | 10:28 |
| Hobbsee | doko: i'm not sure, i'm trying to ignore it :P | 10:29 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: true that | 10:29 |
| seb128 | Hobbsee: and KDE people doing a poor job documenting what they do doesn't change that :p | 10:29 |
| Hobbsee | sorry - the thought was there, the execution was shocking. | 10:29 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: hehe, true that | 10:29 |
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| pygi | sivang, poke? | 10:50 |
| joumetal | linux-libertine package (font) is in Debian testing. It seems to work with dapper without any changes. Could it be added to edgy? | 10:55 |
| Riddell | Hobbsee: KDE changelogs are very detailed, and include full SVN logs for maximum details | 10:55 |
| Hobbsee | Riddell: hmmm okay. i was thinking of a lot of the universe packages, etc | 10:55 |
| === Hobbsee goes back to her corner | ||
| === Hobbsee wonders who stole her brain | ||
| sivang | pygi: hi | 10:56 |
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| HiddenWolf | Hobbsee: we all want a part of you. ;) | 11:00 |
| Hobbsee | .... | 11:00 |
| Kamion | dholbach: done | 11:00 |
| dholbach | Kamion: thanks muchly. | 11:00 |
| Hobbsee | HiddenWolf: did someone steal your brain too? | 11:02 |
| HiddenWolf | Hobbsee: I never had any. :) | 11:02 |
| Hobbsee | ah | 11:02 |
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| Mithrandir | ogra: how's it going wrt getting your CDs down to a reasonable size? | 11:13 |
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| ogra | Mithrandir, just merging seeds ... lets see | 11:57 |
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| zyga | hi, is install-info a known issue? | 12:05 |
| ogra | mjg59, ping | 12:05 |
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| === ogra hugs dholbach | ||
| ogra | one g-p-m patch less :D | 12:15 |
| dholbach | yeah :) | 12:15 |
| zyga | guys what's wrong with install-info? | 12:18 |
| sivang | anybody has an idea why google has vanished from our firefox's search bar? | 12:18 |
| sivang | (and for some reason can not be add | 12:18 |
| sivang | ed) | 12:18 |
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| mjg59 | ogra: Hi | 12:25 |
| ogra | mjg59, i have a weird behavior of usplash on thin clients | 12:26 |
| ogra | the keyboard in the login manager doesnt work unless i switch to tty1 and back | 12:26 |
| ogra | well, it kinda works after a loong delay and only prints '''' chars | 12:26 |
| ogra | if i switch off usplash for the boot all is fine ... | 12:27 |
| StevenK | mjg59: I have the same problems with Debian that you do, if that's news. | 12:28 |
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| mjg59 | ogra: Erm. | 12:29 |
| mjg59 | I can't think of any reason why it should behave differently for thin clients | 12:30 |
| ogra | it changed with my recent update ... (i havent updated for 3 weeks before) | 12:30 |
| ogra | because we dont use GDM = | 12:30 |
| ogra | ? | 12:30 |
| mjg59 | Well, there's been a lot of code changes | 12:30 |
| mjg59 | What do you use? | 12:30 |
| ogra | and i kill it in the wrong place in ldm or miss something that needs to be added ? :)= | 12:30 |
| mjg59 | You shouldn't kill it | 12:31 |
| mjg59 | The VT switch will let it clean up | 12:31 |
| ogra | so | 12:32 |
| ogra | if pidof usplash > /dev/null; then | 12:32 |
| ogra | /etc/init.d/usplash stop | 12:32 |
| ogra | fi | 12:32 |
| ogra | is not appropriate anymore ? | 12:32 |
| ogra | (got that at the top of the initscrit, before i start the X session) | 12:32 |
| === ogra tries that | ||
| mjg59 | Uhm | 12:33 |
| ogra | i had to add it because usplash dropped my to tty1 else | 12:33 |
| mjg59 | /etc/init.d/usplash stop will not do what you think it does | 12:33 |
| mjg59 | Look at how gdm does it | 12:34 |
| ogra | i think thats what it did for dapper | 12:34 |
| ogra | i didnt look in edgy yet | 12:34 |
| infinity | ogra: You probably want "start", not "stop", which is what gdm uses. Yes, confusion, I know. | 12:34 |
| ogra | hehe | 12:34 |
| infinity | usplash's init script is the silliest thing I've ever accidentally contributed to. | 12:35 |
| infinity | But I blame mvo, just 'cause I can. | 12:35 |
| ogra | how about rewriting it at some point to be sane :) | 12:35 |
| infinity | Yeah, yeah. :) | 12:35 |
| infinity | Or obsoleting it entirely somehow. | 12:36 |
| ogra | upstart might help here :) | 12:36 |
| thom | can't you blame scott? i'm sure it must be his fault | 12:36 |
| infinity | thom: Scott didn't really touch usplash until edgy, so the brain-damage in breezy and dapper is something I get to share responsibility for with mjg59 and mvo, mostly. | 12:37 |
| infinity | thom: I'll happily blame him from here on in, though! | 12:37 |
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| ogra | mvo calling "start" to stop usplash :) | 12:44 |
| zyga | guys does anyone know what's install-info mess is all about? | 12:44 |
| === Hobbsee blames ogra | ||
| mvo | ogra: that is called "newspeak" ;) | 12:44 |
| ogra | lol | 12:45 |
| === ogra looks with a totally innocent look at Hobbsee | ||
| === Hobbsee laughs at ogra's innocent look | ||
| ogra | :) | 12:45 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: it doesnt work :P | 12:45 |
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| ogra | Hobbsee, well, was worth a try :) | 12:46 |
| Hobbsee | heh | 12:46 |
| ogra | mjg59, thanks, the keyboard works as expected now :) | 12:46 |
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| jono | he | 12:48 |
| Treenaks | eh? | 12:48 |
| Hobbsee | hey jono | 12:48 |
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| Gloubiboulga | Kamion, hi, is it possible to run a new xubuntu isos build? | 02:26 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: just new ISOs or new livefs too? | 02:30 |
| Gloubiboulga | Mithrandir, new livefs is needed too I think | 02:31 |
| tepsipakki | netboot-installer has old components, so d-i should be rebuilt | 02:31 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: xubuntu livefs running now | 02:32 |
| Gloubiboulga | Mithrandir, thanks | 02:32 |
| Kamion | tepsipakki: yes, I'm going to do that after all my no-more-devfs stuff is through | 02:35 |
| tepsipakki | kamion: ok, thanks | 02:35 |
| Kamion | plus the kbd-chooser change I'm working on now | 02:35 |
| Kamion | I didn't get a chance to do it at the sprint last week | 02:35 |
| tepsipakki | devfs is going to go? does that affect the disk-device-id that the d-i uses? | 02:36 |
| Mithrandir | tepsipakki: we haven't used devfs as such for ages. | 02:36 |
| Kamion | devfs disappeared long ago - the change is to get rid of devfs *paths* | 02:36 |
| Kamion | so yes, d-i will start using /dev/hda1 instead of /dev/discs/disc0/part1, etc. | 02:36 |
| Kamion | it already sort of does, but only patchily | 02:37 |
| tepsipakki | right, good to know | 02:37 |
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| Mithrandir | ogra: well, getting anywhere? | 03:05 |
| ogra | Mithrandir, yes, to lunch ... i'll trigger a new iso afterwards ... :) | 03:05 |
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| janimo | Gloubiboulga: hi | 03:06 |
| Mithrandir | ogra: so you've managed to shrink it a bit, then? | 03:06 |
| Gloubiboulga | hi janimo | 03:06 |
| janimo | Gloubiboulga: I added pyxfce to desktop seed as well, it will need a MIR | 03:06 |
| Gloubiboulga | janimo, I'm not sure that it's a good idea | 03:06 |
| janimo | Gloubiboulga: made progress on xkb? | 03:06 |
| janimo | Gloubiboulga: why? | 03:07 |
| Gloubiboulga | pyxfce seems unmaintained | 03:07 |
| Gloubiboulga | I haven't seen an svn since months | 03:07 |
| janimo | Gloubiboulga: there's at least one plugin upstream which uses it upstream no? | 03:07 |
| Gloubiboulga | janimo, yes | 03:07 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: ISOs building | 03:08 |
| Gloubiboulga | Mithrandir, thanks again :) | 03:08 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: .. and built. | 03:10 |
| Gloubiboulga | lets see who much Mo we'll have to remove this time... | 03:11 |
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| ogra | Mithrandir, lets see, i found out that tomboy was still in the seeds and the foomatic stuff should gain a bit as well | 03:15 |
| rodarvus | heh, and I remember ogra quite happy just a few weeks ago, because we had gained ~20mb from python deps :) | 03:16 |
| === rouzic_ausente ha vuelto | ||
| ogra | rodarvus, :P | 03:16 |
| ogra | we'll get it in shape ... we'll just drop X, gnome and openoffice :P | 03:17 |
| Mithrandir | nobody uses OOo anyway. LaTeX ftw. ;-P | 03:18 |
| Mithrandir | also, I'm using "ftw" far too much those days. | 03:18 |
| rodarvus | yay LaTeX! | 03:19 |
| sivang | I prefer genuine rubber.. | 03:19 |
| rodarvus | I think two things will likely have to happen in the medium-to-near future: split language packs per country | 03:19 |
| rodarvus | and drop OOo helps from the cd :) | 03:19 |
| rodarvus | . o O ( who needs help files anyway ) :D | 03:20 |
| === Hobbsee wonders if they're actually being installed now | ||
| ogra | right, its even a lot more education you gain through LaTeX ! | 03:21 |
| rodarvus | openoffice.org-help-en-us is on the livecd | 03:21 |
| rodarvus | ~11mb compressed, 22mb decompressed | 03:22 |
| HiddenWolf | rodarvus: everyone needs help with the beast that is Oo. :) | 03:22 |
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| rodarvus | heh :) | 03:22 |
| rodarvus | it would help if the OOo help was actually useful | 03:22 |
| Gloubiboulga | Mithrandir, did you run the build for alternate isos too? | 03:22 |
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| rodarvus | (but anyhow) | 03:22 |
| ogra | rodarvus, its totally useful (on 3GHz machines with 4Gig of ram at least) | 03:23 |
| janimo | mvo hi, re the gtkhtml2 use in g-a-i. It looks like it is used to render 3rd party commercial EULAS only? | 03:23 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: nope, you want those? | 03:24 |
| rodarvus | yes, this is another problem. given it uses gcj runtime to run, OOo help is dog slow, and uses an incredibly high amount of RAM | 03:24 |
| Gloubiboulga | Mithrandir, yes please :) | 03:24 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: running | 03:24 |
| Gloubiboulga | thanks | 03:24 |
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| ogra | edgy-install-i386.iso 29-Aug-2006 14:18 722M | 03:26 |
| ogra | :(((((( | 03:26 |
| ogra | where do i get 22 meg ... | 03:26 |
| rodarvus | ouch. | 03:26 |
| ogra | hrm .. | 03:26 |
| ogra | and its only i386 | 03:26 |
| rodarvus | !! | 03:27 |
| ogra | the others are both at 716 only | 03:27 |
| ogra | i wonder where the 6 meg come from | 03:27 |
| rodarvus | I expected i386 to be smaller than amd64 at least | 03:27 |
| ogra | well, the seeds are tweaked already to compensate that | 03:27 |
| ogra | (amd64 and ppc dont ahve all apps i386 has) | 03:28 |
| Nafallo | ogra: oo-help :-) | 03:28 |
| rodarvus | ogra, doko made a very good suggestion, btw | 03:28 |
| rodarvus | (on ubuntu-devel@) | 03:29 |
| ogra | funny ... http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/20060829.1/report.html doesnt show and amd64 uninstallables | 03:29 |
| ogra | hmm | 03:29 |
| ogra | why not drop vim completely in edubuntu ... | 03:29 |
| ogra | i wonder who would complain | 03:29 |
| rodarvus | vim-tiny is tiny | 03:30 |
| ogra | (apart from myself) | 03:30 |
| rodarvus | but if you have at least nano, I think thats ok | 03:30 |
| === ogra cries ... debian constantly merged from the wrong ltsp tree ... | ||
| rodarvus | FWIW, most other linux distributions install vim-tiny (or elvis) on their default installs | 03:31 |
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| ogra | ok, seed changed | 03:32 |
| ogra | other suggestions ? | 03:32 |
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| Kamion | ogra: er ... where did you make that change? | 03:34 |
| dholbach | ogra: what is ttf-dustin and xaos for? | 03:34 |
| ogra | dholbach, xaos is a fractal generator | 03:34 |
| ogra | the dustin font is required by kalzium iirc | 03:34 |
| ogra | Kamion, minimal in the edubuntu seed | 03:35 |
| Kamion | ogra: I'm sorry, but you can't do that | 03:35 |
| Kamion | ogra: it will have no effect | 03:35 |
| ogra | oops | 03:35 |
| Kamion | please revert that | 03:35 |
| ogra | ok | 03:35 |
| ogra | doing so | 03:35 |
| Kamion | the minimal and standard seeds in derivatives basically don't do anything | 03:35 |
| Kamion | so, I was also thinking of moving from vim to vim-tiny in Ubuntu minimal | 03:35 |
| ogra | that'd be great | 03:36 |
| Kamion | in some ways it would be better, because vim-tiny is configured to act like vi if you run it as vi, and like vim if you run it as vim | 03:36 |
| Kamion | (the compatible flag) | 03:36 |
| Kamion | I was thinking that it wouldn't help much because you'd also want vim on the CD - vim-tiny is missing too many features | 03:36 |
| _ion | Moving to vim-tiny is okay, but only having nano and no vi derivative would suck. | 03:36 |
| slomo | Kamion: hi :) did you already have time to look at my two dbus mails? | 03:37 |
| Kamion | but maybe you'd want to leave vim off the Edubuntu CD? | 03:37 |
| Kamion | _ion: no intention of dropping vi | 03:37 |
| Kamion | I'd hurt people if that happened | 03:37 |
| Kamion | slomo: oh, not yet, will do shortly | 03:37 |
| Mithrandir | Gloubiboulga: and done | 03:37 |
| ogra | Kamion, well, -minimal pulls it in currently ... there is no other occurence of vim in the edubuntu seeds | 03:37 |
| ogra | or do you mean completely ? | 03:38 |
| slomo | Kamion: thanks :) btw, when will the main freeze for knot2 start? | 03:38 |
| Kamion | ogra: indeed, but I'd probably add it to Ubuntu ship - or maybe even desktop | 03:38 |
| ogra | ah | 03:38 |
| ogra | right | 03:38 |
| ogra | no, i wouldnt merge that | 03:38 |
| Kamion | vim-tiny is missing e.g. syntax highlighting | 03:38 |
| ogra | i think edubuntu could even go without vi | 03:38 |
| seb128 | do we need vim on desktop CD? I mean vim users are probably able to install it ... | 03:38 |
| Kamion | seb128: yeah, not sure about that, I think it should be on the CD though | 03:39 |
| Gloubiboulga | thanks Mithrandir | 03:39 |
| zul | i would want vim on a desktop cd alot users use vim | 03:39 |
| Kamion | and a lot of vim users, while competent, won't necessarily be familiar with Debian/Ubuntu - they'll just start vi and notice that it sucks | 03:39 |
| Riddell | Kamion: could you build a kubuntu livefs | 03:40 |
| seb128 | don't ship any vi at all then? | 03:40 |
| Kamion | ogra: I'm not going to drop vi altogether from minimal | 03:40 |
| Kamion | seb128: no | 03:40 |
| seb128 | nano is enough | 03:40 |
| seb128 | ok | 03:40 |
| Kamion | no it's not | 03:40 |
| ogra | seb128++ | 03:40 |
| seb128 | just my opinion, but I don't use vi | 03:40 |
| ogra | i use vi daily | 03:40 |
| azeem | it would be alright to have a big warning/notice on the first invocation of vi as vi that this is vim in compat mode | 03:40 |
| Treenaks | Kamion: whatever works, as long as 'vi' doesn't start nano... as I've seen on some BSD systems here.. *shudder* | 03:40 |
| azeem | maybe | 03:40 |
| Kamion | we drop vi over my dead body :) | 03:40 |
| ogra | but i dont have a prob to install it | 03:40 |
| Kamion | it belongs in a base Unix system | 03:40 |
| seb128 | Kamion: we are lucky that you are not an emacs user then :p | 03:40 |
| _ion | treenaks: Augh! | 03:41 |
| ogra | haha | 03:41 |
| Kamion | seb128: yes, we are :) | 03:41 |
| doko | Kamion++, seb128---- | 03:41 |
| Treenaks | _ion: my words exactly | 03:41 |
| Kamion | Riddell: sure, building | 03:41 |
| Kamion | anyway, vim-tiny is half a megabyte | 03:41 |
| Kamion | I think it's well worth it just for not pissing off server admins | 03:41 |
| Kamion | vim I acknowledge as more debatable | 03:42 |
| Kamion | the big chunk of space is vim-runtime - unfortunately that's also the bit that's really nice to have | 03:42 |
| azeem | put vim-tiny into -minimal, and vim into -server? | 03:43 |
| LarstiQ | didn't this get resolved in Debian? | 03:43 |
| Kamion | LarstiQ: it is not possible for Ubuntu task choices to get resolved in Debian, so no | 03:43 |
| LarstiQ | Kamion: right, task choices. | 03:43 |
| azeem | and try to get desktop users to notice they should install vim for the real deal | 03:43 |
| === bddebian [n=bdefrees@mail.ottens.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| LarstiQ | Kamion: but the discussion was much the same | 03:44 |
| Kamion | yes, that's why vim-tiny was created | 03:44 |
| Kamion | but that doesn't necessarily help with the question of whether providing vim on the CD is a good idea | 03:44 |
| infinity | Kamion: The full vim does seem excessive for -minimal | 03:44 |
| bddebian | Good morning | 03:45 |
| Kamion | hmm, I wonder whether /usr/share/vim/vim70/lang can be stripped and put into langpacks | 03:45 |
| LarstiQ | Kamion: good luck with that :) | 03:45 |
| === Nafallo runs vim-tiny on his server. should be enough for -minimal indeed. | ||
| === poningru__ [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| ogra | seb128, what will break if i drop gnome2-user-guide from edubuntu ? are there any hardcoded referecnes to it anywhere ? | 03:48 |
| seb128 | ogra: the help from a bunch of gnome apps | 03:49 |
| ogra | hrm ... | 03:49 |
| seb128 | ogra: I think some capplets, etc point to documens from the user-guide | 03:49 |
| seb128 | ogra: so you will get a yelp complaining about some reference not found | 03:49 |
| ogra | ok, so i have to keep that | 03:49 |
| dholbach | drop blender and xaos | 03:49 |
| seb128 | why do we have blender to main? | 03:50 |
| ogra | dholbach, i cant drop xaos (and its only 500k or so) | 03:50 |
| bddebian | For Margaritas? | 03:50 |
| ogra | seb128, its in edubutu-desktop | 03:50 |
| seb128 | ogra: ah, k | 03:50 |
| seb128 | ogra: I was wondering yesterday because some user asked me if we had planned to update to the current Debian version for edgy | 03:51 |
| ogra | would be something we could drop (it would be sane for the pacage to be in universe) | 03:51 |
| ogra | seb128, lfittl i guess ;) | 03:51 |
| seb128 | ogra: no, kagou | 03:51 |
| ogra | heh, ok | 03:51 |
| ogra | thats why i had a pm open this morning from him :) | 03:51 |
| seb128 | hehe | 03:51 |
| seb128 | maybe we should look at tackle that cdbs bug pointed by doko | 03:52 |
| LarstiQ | upgrading to 2.42 would be nice, if possible | 03:52 |
| ogra | well, blender has a big prob now it totally depends on ffmpeg, i considered dropping it already, but that wil get me many user complaints | 03:52 |
| seb128 | the one which make every binary from a same source package ship the ChangeLog, etc | 03:52 |
| seb128 | that could spare some megas | 03:52 |
| === Hagbarddenstore [n=hagbardd@81-235-254-217-no24.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| doko | which reminds me at ajmitch's missing cdbs upload ... | 03:53 |
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| ogra | doko, that was the fix for the new python policy stuff, right ? if so, we have that anyway, i fixed it weeks ago | 03:54 |
| Kamion | looks like vim currently requires /usr/share/vim/vim70/lang to stay where it is | 03:54 |
| doko | ogra: no, new sync is required, and according to pitti, ajmitch has one prepared, but not submitted | 03:55 |
| ogra | ah, k | 03:56 |
| janimo | seb128: I have asked before, but any new opinions on splitting at least some libs out of gnome-python{-extras} to separate binary packages? | 03:57 |
| === carlos [n=carlos@214.Red-88-0-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| ogra | ok, i'll let blender go bac to universe | 03:57 |
| ogra | *back | 03:57 |
| seb128 | janimo: I don't want to | 03:57 |
| janimo | g-a-i only needs gtkhtml2 but installs a lot besides that because of the bindsings | 03:57 |
| seb128 | janimo: or get them splitted from Debian | 03:57 |
| janimo | seb128: but are you not mainatining them in debian anymore? | 03:58 |
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| seb128 | janimo: they are team maintained and I'm pretty busy atm so other people are likely to give you a better reply | 03:58 |
| janimo | seb128: in #debian-devel or is there a more appropriate channel? | 03:59 |
| dholbach | #gnome-debian on irc.gimp.net | 03:59 |
| janimo | and which of thos euploadrs is more likely to be involved with this package? | 03:59 |
| seb128 | janimo: bug report or #gnome-debian on GIMPNet | 03:59 |
| janimo | dholbach: ok thanks | 03:59 |
| janimo | seb128: thanks | 03:59 |
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| seb128 | janimo: you probably want to mention you speak about python | 04:02 |
| janimo | seb128: good idea ;) | 04:02 |
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| === ivoks is now known as ivoks_away | ||
| === shenki [n=shenki@ppp131-204.lns3.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === ivoks_away is now known as ivoks | ||
| === Mithrandir starts building new ubuntu livefs-es | ||
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| === herzi_x41 [n=herzi@pD9E29F87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir | ||
| herzi_x41 | mjg59: can you take a quick look at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/spiftacity/+bug/57843 | 04:11 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 57843 in spiftacity "rebuild or merge with metacity" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] | 04:11 |
| herzi_x41 | thanks | 04:11 |
| Mithrandir | hiya Hobbsee | 04:12 |
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| Hobbsee | hey Mithrandir, how are you doing? :) | 04:12 |
| seb128 | herzi_x41: I had a look at that yesterday, but activating composite with metacity make it unusable (sort of blue,purple background with a sort of reduced ressource mode, I had to reboot to rescue mode and downgrade to the edgy version to be able to use my desktop again) | 04:13 |
| Hobbsee | woo! i got my name in another debian changelog :) | 04:13 |
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| seb128 | Hobbsee: forwarding .desktops now? :) | 04:14 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: i did for one package, i think. | 04:14 |
| seb128 | herzi_x41: and I'm reluctant making metacity linking to a lib with no ABI stability | 04:14 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: no, i kept harrassing allee to fix his package in debian so i could sync it. | 04:14 |
| === Hobbsee is good at that :) | ||
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| bddebian | *cough*desktops*cough* | 04:14 |
| seb128 | Hobbsee: I've read your name to a package that included the .desktop you forwarded I think | 04:14 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: yeah, quite likely. | 04:15 |
| Hobbsee | bddebian: no, it was + Thx Hobbsee for reminding me (again and again :). | 04:15 |
| Hobbsee | about kdelibs-bin dependancy that needed to be axed. | 04:15 |
| seb128 | Hobbsee: | 04:15 |
| seb128 | " epiphany (0.5.1-4) unstable; urgency=low | 04:15 |
| seb128 | . | 04:15 |
| seb128 | * Add desktop file used by Ubuntu from the original patch sent | 04:15 |
| seb128 | by Sarah Hobbs <hobbsee@kubuntu.org>" | 04:15 |
| Hobbsee | seb128: ah yes, i got an email from him today | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | > +++ 0.5.1-3ubuntu1/debian/dirs2006-07-10 11:18:27.000000000 | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | This file (dirs) doesn't exist in debian 0.5.1-3 version, arch | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | independent data has been splitted in a separate package, so same | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | happened to dirs file. You may want to update the ubuntu version to | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | reflect it. | 04:16 |
| ogra | wohoo, Hobbsee on her way to become DD | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: hah. no way | 04:17 |
| ogra | well, you partially entered the gnome team in debian with that change :P | 04:17 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: presumably i should go for core (again) before that? | 04:17 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: argh. i dont even use gnome. | 04:17 |
| ogra | hehe, i know :) | 04:17 |
| ogra | we'll get you there ;) | 04:18 |
| Hobbsee | hah | 04:18 |
| Hobbsee | dream on | 04:18 |
| ogra | *g* | 04:18 |
| bddebian | Hobbsee: Why not? Might be your "fast path" to core-dev.. ;-P | 04:18 |
| Hobbsee | bddebian: my fast path? heh | 04:18 |
| === Hobbsee is not going to reapply for core in a while. if ever. | ||
| Mithrandir | Hobbsee: much better today than yesterday, but waiting for stuff to build is annoying. | 04:18 |
| Hobbsee | Mithrandir: true that | 04:18 |
| === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-232-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| bddebian | Heya pygi | 04:20 |
| pygi | heya bddebian | 04:20 |
| jcole | any xgl package maintainers or developers in this room? | 04:24 |
| seb128 | jcole: don't ask to ask, just ask | 04:27 |
| seb128 | jcole: I'm not technically maintaining it but I might be able to reply to a question | 04:27 |
| seb128 | same for other people too | 04:27 |
| jcole | i've got a custom kernel and rebuild the dri module package from beerorkid ... i've installed them and it doesn't seem to work right | 04:27 |
| jcole | apt-get build-dep linux-dri-modules-common; apt-get source linux-dri-modules-common; cd linux-dri-modules-2.6.15-26-20060726; dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot | 04:27 |
| jcole | that builds all the linux-dri-modules-2.6.15-26-* packages and such | 04:28 |
| jcole | is there something i'm missing? i dist-upgraded beforehand | 04:29 |
| seb128 | what "doesn't work right"? | 04:29 |
| pygi | siretart, poke? :) | 04:30 |
| Kamion | Mithrandir: do you know if there's a way to disable just the apt upgrade part of update-notifier, but not stuff like apport? | 04:30 |
| Kamion | Mithrandir: 'cos I'd like to have update-notifier running on the live CD so that apport works | 04:30 |
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| dholbach | have a nice evening | 04:31 |
| bddebian | Later dholbach | 04:31 |
| jcole_nodri | seb128: can't get dri... it works with stock ubuntu kernel and binary modules from beerorkid | 04:32 |
| jcole_nodri | (EE) I810(0): [drm] drmAddMap(front_handle) failed. Disabling DRI | 04:32 |
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| seb128 | jcole_nodri: I don't know, but doesn't looks like an Ubuntu bug if it works with the ubuntu kernel | 04:32 |
| jcole_nodri | seb128: is that the only package i need to rebuild? do i need to rebuild the xorg/mesa drivers and such too? | 04:33 |
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| seb128 | jcole_nodri: no idea, I'm not really a kernel nor xorg guy, maybe rodarvus knows about that | 04:34 |
| rodarvus | jcole_nodri, where do you got your kernel source from? | 04:36 |
| jcole_nodri | this is my /var/log/Xorg.0.log --> http://pastebin.ca/153243 | 04:36 |
| rodarvus | our kernel packages have updated agpgart & drm, needed for proper DRI | 04:36 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: from the ubuntu mirrors | 04:38 |
| rodarvus | "I've got a custom kernel and rebuild the dri module package from beerorkid" | 04:39 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: apt-get source linux-source-2.6.15 | 04:39 |
| rodarvus | what is beerorkid? | 04:39 |
| === Zdra [n=zdra@63.180-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| rodarvus | (and why did you need to download/built dri stuff from this external repository) | 04:40 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: the dri source actually comes from http://ubuntu.compiz.net/ | 04:40 |
| rodarvus | oh, right | 04:40 |
| rodarvus | I suppose they already have working DRI for dapper, isn't this true? (though, as I don't use their repos, I can't confirm this) | 04:41 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: the dri in dapper is almost 3 years old for my intel card | 04:41 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: many glx extensions have been added in the last few years (including the ones xgl/compiz needs) | 04:42 |
| rodarvus | indeed, intel dri on dapper is seriously lacking | 04:43 |
| rodarvus | (but unfortunately, its nothing we can officially deal with right now, since dapper is released, and this is not something that could go into dapper-updates too) | 04:43 |
| === sladen grins at rodarvus | ||
| Hobbsee | hehe | 04:44 |
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| ogra | heh | 04:44 |
| rodarvus | people, you are evil. | 04:44 |
| rodarvus | :) | 04:44 |
| === Hobbsee hugs rodarvus | ||
| Hobbsee | us, evil? | 04:44 |
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| janimo | rodarvus: is X version frozen for edgy? | 04:45 |
| === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| janimo | as is no 7.2 for sure | 04:45 |
| rodarvus | janimo, since a few weeks, yes | 04:45 |
| rodarvus | no 7.2 for Edgy :) | 04:45 |
| herzi_x41 | janimo: 7.2 gets out after edgy, doesn't it? | 04:45 |
| rodarvus | 7.2 will be released in two months, (maybe more) | 04:46 |
| rodarvus | so, about 20 days before edgy is released | 04:46 |
| rodarvus | surely not in time for inclusion into edgy | 04:46 |
| janimo | ok I though they planned sep but anyway | 04:46 |
| rodarvus | janimo, ~ october 15-20, afaik | 04:46 |
| rodarvus | surely in time for Edgy+1 | 04:46 |
| janimo | rodarvus: do X packages come via debian now or is x-swat handling them? | 04:47 |
| rodarvus | there's plenty of cool stuff which can be done for X.Org on Edgy+1 | 04:47 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: like dri | 04:47 |
| janimo | rodarvus: re the amd OLPC driver are you planning to package it or waiting on debian? | 04:47 |
| rodarvus | janimo, I wish they could mostly be handled by debian, but unfortunately we (x-swat) had to mostly drive them for edgy | 04:47 |
| rodarvus | janimo, I'll package it | 04:47 |
| janimo | ok | 04:48 |
| rodarvus | later this week | 04:48 |
| rodarvus | sorry for not answering your email on the subject, btw :) | 04:48 |
| janimo | np | 04:48 |
| rodarvus | jcole_nodri, we package dri | 04:48 |
| rodarvus | theres plenty of coolness coming for X.Org on edgy and edgy+1 (more if we find the right person to hire) | 04:49 |
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| Hobbsee | rodarvus: you're not volunteering? :P | 04:50 |
| === cymcy [n=cymcy@d83-179-6-91.cust.tele2.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: who packages the linux-dri-modules-* packages? | 04:50 |
| rodarvus | X.Org is not the reason I was hired. The only reason I'm doing it is because we don't have another hacker working full time on it | 04:50 |
| jcole_nodri | whoa "who packages the packages" | 04:51 |
| rodarvus | jcole_nodri, there is no linux-dri-modules-* package on (official) dapper | 04:51 |
| infinity | Kamion: Nice CD health check mails. | 04:51 |
| Hobbsee | rodarvus: i realise that :) i was joking | 04:51 |
| Hobbsee | hi infinity | 04:51 |
| infinity | Kamion: Also, FWIW, I've already pinged doko about fixing python-tk brokenness. | 04:51 |
| rodarvus | these modules are inside the regular kernel package, and are done by the ubuntu-kernel team | 04:51 |
| Kamion | infinity: good good. I hadn't got there yet ... | 04:51 |
| HiddenWolf | rodarvus: so, are there any takers for it? You blogged about the employment ad. ;) | 04:51 |
| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: does edgy have newer dri than dapper? | 04:51 |
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| Kamion | infinity: I'll add stuff like livefs build status to those mails later; I just got bored before doing so | 04:52 |
| Kamion | infinity: does the reformatting I did of britney output suit you? | 04:52 |
| rodarvus | HiddenWolf, I'm not interviewing people for this position, so, I have no idea, really | 04:52 |
| infinity | Kamion: It doesn't make me want to poke my eyes out or anything. | 04:52 |
| Kamion | I compacted multiple architectures down onto a single line, per mdz's suggestion | 04:52 |
| infinity | Kamion: Yeah, works well enough for me. | 04:53 |
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| jcole_nodri | rodarvus: if so, i'll yank and rebuild the edgy kernel sources instead | 04:56 |
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| janimo | Kamion: nice mail indeed, could you add Gloubiboulga to the Cc as well for xubuntu? | 04:58 |
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| Kamion | janimo: sure, done - I was going to ask you about it beforehand but never seemed to catch you on IRC | 05:02 |
| janimo | Kamion: yes, I was mostly offline these past weeks | 05:03 |
| janimo | thanks | 05:03 |
| Kamion | janimo: you ok with those being sent daily? | 05:03 |
| Kamion | as I said to infinity, I'll flesh them out a bit later | 05:03 |
| janimo | Kamion: re a11y boot entry, one will be needed for the xubuntu desktop CD as well, I assume you are doing them for the ubuntu CD? | 05:03 |
| janimo | Kamion: daily is fine | 05:03 |
| Kamion | janimo: easy to do - is the code in casper yet? | 05:04 |
| janimo | Kamion: no idea about what code should that be sorry. It's ok to have that once the Ubuntu CD is accesbile just wanted to make sure it;'s you I'll come to | 05:04 |
| janimo | I think it's not yet in casper as I gathered from what henrik blogged today | 05:05 |
| Kamion | oh, you just use gtk so I guess it's not hard | 05:05 |
| Kamion | do you have gconftool? | 05:05 |
| janimo | Kamion: yes | 05:05 |
| Kamion | if so, it should just be a matter of adding the necessary applications | 05:05 |
| janimo | and added two metapackes to ship which dep on orca & co | 05:05 |
| Kamion | janimo: hmm - you should have the a11y entry already | 05:06 |
| Kamion | janimo: it's not really a boot menu entry, it's a full menu down at the bottom right of the gfxboot screen | 05:06 |
| janimo | Kamion: I admit I have not tried an edgy live as they were oversized until recently | 05:06 |
| Kamion | janimo: and it's added unconditionally for all derivatives - has been since dapper | 05:07 |
| Kamion | which was actually a bug for kubuntu, but never mind since they're making it work now | 05:07 |
| janimo | ah, I though it was supposed to be a main entry. ok then | 05:07 |
| janimo | so then i tmeans it has to have some extra packages associated or a way to tell it to start and then install some gnome apps besides the xubuntu ones | 05:08 |
| Kamion | it doesn't cause anything extra to be installed, only stuff to be enabled | 05:09 |
| janimo | it is different from ubuntu as it does not install orca and gnome-mag by default | 05:09 |
| Kamion | see scripts/casper-bottom/*accessibility in casper | 05:09 |
| Kamion | that's the code that actually implements those menu items | 05:09 |
| Kamion | if you need certain menu items disabled for xubuntu, let me know | 05:09 |
| janimo | the a11y apps are not in the default xubuntu-desktoip so soemthing extra may be needed for the xubnunt CD then? | 05:09 |
| Kamion | yeah, if you want | 05:09 |
| Kamion | if they're not usable for xubuntu, we can disable those a11y options for you | 05:10 |
| janimo | Kamion: I think they should be usable but are not put in the default desktop since they are relatively large gnome deps | 05:10 |
| Kamion | nod | 05:11 |
| janimo | so rigth now that option in ubuntu causes casper to call gconftool and tweak the desktop on start | 05:11 |
| Kamion | right | 05:11 |
| janimo | whereas in xubuntu it woulkd need that + install a few extra packages besides xubuntu-desktop for that to make sense | 05:11 |
| janimo | packages starting xubuntu-at which are in the ship seed now | 05:12 |
| === ogra twiddles thumbs waiting for edubuntu-meta ... | ||
| === Hobbsee drops icecubes down ogra's back, to keep him from getting bored. | ||
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| Hobbsee | hey Arbiter | 05:15 |
| Arbiter | heya Hobbsee | 05:16 |
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| ogra | AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH | 05:16 |
| Hobbsee | hehe | 05:17 |
| ogra | Hobbsee, THATS COLD !! | 05:17 |
| Arbiter | o.O? | 05:17 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: yes, and? | 05:17 |
| Hobbsee | Arbiter: [01:14] * Hobbsee drops icecubes down ogra's back, to keep him from getting bored. | 05:17 |
| ogra | not again ! | 05:17 |
| Arbiter | 05:17 | |
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| Hobbsee | ogra: what's the problem? you're in the northern hemisphere, anyway. | 05:17 |
| ogra | its cold, windy and raining here today | 05:18 |
| ogra | 14C | 05:18 |
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| Hobbsee | ogra: hah. | 05:18 |
| ogra | not the weather for icecubes running down your back ... :) | 05:18 |
| Hobbsee | ogra: sure sure... | 05:18 |
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| ogra | i'm happy one of the cats warms my feet atm | 05:19 |
| === Hobbsee demands that firefox NOT CRASH! | ||
| thom | Hobbsee: good luck with that one | 05:20 |
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| Hobbsee | hehe | 05:21 |
| Kamion | janimo: mm, that's not really feasible though | 05:21 |
| Kamion | janimo: especially not on the live CD, where this would have to be happening at boot | 05:21 |
| Kamion | janimo: on the install CD I guess it would be theoretically doable but we have no infrastructure for it at present | 05:22 |
| janimo | Kamion, so on the liveCD we should install all the accessibility stuff if we want it from start | 05:24 |
| janimo | is there a way of not installing it on the disk if it was not enabled then? | 05:24 |
| janimo | so the gnome deps only show up in the live session | 05:24 |
| Zdra | seb128: for the icon problem in notification bubble, I found this patch from gentoo: ftp://ftp.belnet.be/linux/gentoo-portage/x11-misc/notification-daemon/files/notification-daemon-0.3.5-icon-data.patch | 05:25 |
| slomo | Zdra: which problem? :) | 05:26 |
| Zdra | images doesn't appear in notify bubbles | 05:26 |
| Zdra | that's a strange bug, with dbus 0.60 from dapper it works | 05:27 |
| slomo | Zdra: ok, i noticed this lately too... it's still the case with dbus 0.92 on edgy | 05:27 |
| Zdra | and with this gentoo patch it seems to work too, at least that's what an user told me | 05:27 |
| slomo | Zdra: could you file a bug on notification-daemon with this patch and assign it to me? i'll take a look later | 05:28 |
| Zdra | slomo: ok thanks | 05:28 |
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| robtaylor | :q | 05:29 |
| Kamion | janimo: that could be arranged with the aid of live-cd-stacked-filesystems, I think | 05:30 |
| Kamion | janimo: probably best to include only the ones that don't need gnome for now | 05:30 |
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| Zdra | slomo: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/notification-daemon/+bug/58114 | 05:32 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 58114 in notification-daemon "image doesn't appear in bubbles" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] | 05:32 |
| slomo | Zdra: the patch is from upstream svn... and explicitely says that it makes icons work again on dbus >= 0.61... nice catch :) | 05:35 |
| janimo | Kamion: all a11y stuff needs gnome so we'll have to wait for the stacked fs stuff if that solves it | 05:36 |
| janimo | or we could just add it now to test a11y and hope we'll fid a way to remove it from the install later in the cycle | 05:37 |
| janimo | that may be even better to get them tested in xfce | 05:37 |
| janimo | I did not do that so far since I somehow thought that addtional packages can be installed based on boot selection | 05:38 |
| janimo | it worked for the alternate CD and forgot they are quite different | 05:38 |
| janimo | is anyone else experiencing firefox not handling https urls? | 05:39 |
| janimo | the wiki and LP among them | 05:39 |
| Riddell | hmm, these CDs really have got larger | 05:40 |
| ogra | yep | 05:41 |
| ogra | all of them .... | 05:41 |
| ogra | *bigsigh* | 05:41 |
| wasabi_ | Hmm. My xkb has been acting up for the last week or so. Any body aware of changes which could have effected it? gnome-settings-d is unable to set it up. setxkbmap says it can't interpret _XKB_RULES_NAMES. Latest packages haven't fixed it. | 05:41 |
| wasabi_ | Also, if anybody can explain to me htf XKB operates I'd be in debt, so I could find the problem myself. ;) | 05:42 |
| Kamion | janimo: did it really work for the alternate CD? I don't recall ever adding code to d-i that installed packages based on access= | 05:42 |
| Mithrandir | wasabi_: what does setxkbmap -print output? (pastebin or query, please) | 05:42 |
| Kamion | or in fact that did pretty much anything at all based on access= | 05:42 |
| janimo | Kamion: maybe not via d-i ut I thought the LTSP extra packages were added in that way | 05:42 |
| Kamion | ltsp has a special udeb that does the work | 05:42 |
| Kamion | it would be possible to do so for access too, although nobody has yet | 05:43 |
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| slomo | Zdra: yep, fixes it for me... do you want to test it too? | 05:57 |
| slomo | Zdra: (i took the patch from upstream svn instead of the gentoo one) | 05:57 |
| Zdra | slomo: I'm a bit busy atm I'll try to test it later today if possible and if you didn't commit before ;-) | 05:58 |
| Zdra | but if it works for you, for gentoo users and for upstream I guess it will work for me too ;-) | 05:59 |
| slomo | Zdra: ok... i tested it on my two machines here and it works fine... i uploaded it, if you still have any issues please tell me :) | 06:00 |
| Zdra | slomo: ok | 06:00 |
| Zdra | thanks ! | 06:00 |
| slomo | np :) | 06:01 |
| seb128 | Zdra, slomo: thank you for working on that n-d bug ;) | 06:02 |
| slomo | seb128: i also included a patch for fixing the assertion failure that mvo worked around last week, do you remember? | 06:03 |
| seb128 | slomo: nop, I just though mvo make the code no stop on assertions to workaround it | 06:03 |
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| seb128 | slomo: but I've had mails issues during the sprint so didn't notice all the changes from previous week | 06:03 |
| slomo | seb128: yes... now the assertion (well, the only assertion i ever got... not sure if it's really the same) is gone | 06:04 |
| seb128 | slomo: good job ;) | 06:05 |
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| ogra | hmm | 06:45 |
| Burgwork | ogra, ? | 06:46 |
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| === ogra wonders what went wrong with the current edubuntu iso ... it didnt pick up any chage in the metapackages or seeds | ||
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| Kamion | ogra: perhaps you were just a bit too quick on the trigger? | 06:55 |
| ogra | heh, well | 06:55 |
| ogra | likely | 06:55 |
| ogra | new edubuntu meta was on a.u.c though | 06:56 |
| ogra | (binaries) | 06:56 |
| Kamion | ogra: what should have been added? | 06:56 |
| ogra | removed ... | 06:56 |
| Kamion | or removed | 06:56 |
| ogra | i merged the ppd drop from ubuntu and dropped blende | 06:56 |
| ogra | r | 06:56 |
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| ogra | should have gained at least 17MB | 06:57 |
| Kamion | ogra: what version of edubuntu-meta? | 06:57 |
| ogra | 1.7 | 06:57 |
| Kamion | ok, that was used | 06:57 |
| ogra | hmm | 06:58 |
| ogra | then its weird | 06:58 |
| === Kamion investigates | ||
| ogra | + Trying to add foomatic-filters-ppds... | 06:59 |
| ogra | from the log ... | 06:59 |
| Kamion | something is wrong with my seed checkouts on rookery | 07:00 |
| Kamion | cjwatson@rookery:~/public_html/seeds/edubuntu-edgy$ bzr pull | 07:00 |
| Kamion | Using saved location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.edgy/ | 07:00 |
| Kamion | 0 revision(s) pulled. | 07:00 |
| Kamion | cjwatson@rookery:~/public_html/seeds/edubuntu-edgy$ bzr revno | 07:00 |
| Kamion | 511 | 07:00 |
| Kamion | but the current revno should be 515 | 07:00 |
| ogra | right | 07:01 |
| ogra | wich the metapackage update script apprently got ... | 07:01 |
| Kamion | oh, it looks like the http supermirror is broken | 07:01 |
| ogra | so the seeds are fine | 07:01 |
| Kamion | remember that the metapackage update script uses sftp | 07:01 |
| ogra | and cdimage ? wget ? | 07:02 |
| Kamion | er, a complicated chain of stuff, but ultimately bzr pull from http | 07:02 |
| ogra | the logs look like you are making a local copy | 07:02 |
| ogra | ah | 07:02 |
| Kamion | don't get distracted :) that's not relevant | 07:02 |
| Kamion | ogra: would you mind chasing this up with #launchpad? the problem is that the http mirror of /~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.edgy is out of date | 07:03 |
| ogra | oki | 07:03 |
| Kamion | thanks | 07:03 |
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| jcole | -26? http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/misc/vmware-player-kernel-modules-2.6.15-23 | 07:24 |
| jcole | err.. http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/misc/vmware-player-kernel-modules | 07:24 |
| jcole | maybe those should be merged with restricted modules... | 07:25 |
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| Trae | https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/22336 Anyone know when this is going to get addressed? This is a fairly nasty bug that seems to affect all laptops. | 07:42 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 22336 in Ubuntu "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Needs info] | 07:42 |
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| Trae | Having all Ubuntu laptops shut off when they do any real CPU work doesn't seem like it would be a good thing. | 07:44 |
| tseng | "If the fan is running at full speed and yet the CPU is overheating, I don't see | 07:45 |
| tseng | how this can be the fault of the operating system" | 07:45 |
| tseng | you don't need to comment on bugs here btw, the bug is clearly the best place | 07:46 |
| Trae | tseng, It's been open for almost a year. | 07:46 |
| Trae | at what point does someone need to make a comment on it? | 07:46 |
| Trae | and where? | 07:46 |
| Keybuk | Trae: dude, "affect all laptops" is somewhat of an exaggeration | 07:46 |
| Trae | Keybuk, do you have a laptop? | 07:46 |
| slomo | Trae: at least my laptop is not affected by this | 07:47 |
| tseng | (I was not going to feed the troll on that one) | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | Trae: yes, several | 07:47 |
| tseng | 80C is really freaking hot if you didn't know | 07:47 |
| Treenaks | 07:47 | |
| Treenaks | ~/. | 07:47 |
| tseng | my pentium 4, legendary for heat output, runs at 45 | 07:47 |
| Treenaks | uhr, oops, sorry | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | there's an old kernel bug that nobody's figured out that means your laptop wildly over-estimates how hot it is | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | so it isn't over-heating, but is just the kernel getting the math wrong | 07:48 |
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| Trae | Keybuk, would would other Distro's not have this problem? That's the odd thing | 07:49 |
| Trae | err s/would/why/ | 07:49 |
| Trae | heh | 07:49 |
| Keybuk | Trae: we tend to pull the latest acpi patches, could be in there | 07:49 |
| Keybuk | there's some chatter on the bug that suggests it also could be powernowd buggering up -- if you try disabling that, does it still power down? | 07:49 |
| Trae | Keybuk, k, I would just hope this would be fixed for Edgy | 07:49 |
| Trae | Keybuk, nod.. I did try that.. and *boom* | 07:50 |
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| Trae | hmmm | 07:50 |
| Trae | wait | 07:50 |
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| Trae | maybe I tried turning off acpi | 07:50 |
| Trae | Keybuk, how do you disable powernowd ? | 07:50 |
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| Keybuk | Trae: /etc/init.d/powernowd stop | 07:50 |
| Trae | nod | 07:50 |
| Trae | hehe, just tried that | 07:51 |
| Trae | ok... let me fire up something and see if this sucker dies | 07:51 |
| Trae | If I go poof, that means no ;) {it didn't work} | 07:51 |
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| Trae | finally found a long enough video... | 07:56 |
| === Trae waits | ||
| jcole | Trae: tail -f /var/log/messages | grep -i acpi | 07:56 |
| Trae | k | 07:56 |
| Trae | jcole, hmm nothing is showing up. | 07:57 |
| Trae | that a good or bad thing? | 07:57 |
| Trae | heh | 07:57 |
| jcole | Trae: tail -f /var/log/acpid | 07:59 |
| Trae | ok | 07:59 |
| Trae | [Mon Aug 28 01:01:47 2006] completed event "battery BAT0 00000081 00000001" | 07:59 |
| Trae | Keybuk, hmmm | 08:01 |
| Trae | Keybuk, stillll going! | 08:01 |
| Trae | normally this sucker would have shut off by now | 08:01 |
| lfittl | elmo: ping | 08:01 |
| elmo | lfittl: ? | 08:02 |
| lfittl | elmo: did you get my mail about gnupg and the smartcard reader udev rules? (sry for asking again here, it's just that FF comes closer and closer ;)) | 08:02 |
| elmo | lfittl: I'm not a maintainer of packages in ubuntu - whatever happens to gnupg in ubuntu isn't my problem/concern | 08:03 |
| Trae | it seems like powernowd is the culprit | 08:03 |
| jdong | Keybuk: thanks for pushing through all the backports. I really appreciate it | 08:03 |
| Trae | I'll post something to the bug letting people know how they can fix things... | 08:03 |
| Trae | Keybuk, this is working so far and no shutdown, thanks tons. | 08:03 |
| lfittl | elmo: sure, but as you maintain it in debian I thought you might want to take a look at my solution, as I am interested in getting it into Debian sometime | 08:04 |
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| lfittl | elmo: and also, I was not sure if gnupg is the right package for it, or if there should be a dedicated package "gnupg-udev" | 08:07 |
| elmo | a new package sounds like overkill, I'm not sure gnupg is the right p ackage thought | 08:07 |
| elmo | s/t$$/ | 08:07 |
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| lfittl | any idea which package would be better? | 08:08 |
| Trae_ | Keybuk ooops. Spoke too soon. | 08:09 |
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| Trae_ | Keybuk about 6mins into the second video it shut off.... which is way longer than it normally would work. (2 or 3 mins before and it'd shut off) | 08:09 |
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| Trae_ | this was after playing a YouTube video for around 12mins it powered off. | 08:10 |
| === Trae_ is now known as Trae | ||
| Keybuk | Trae: hmm, interesting | 08:11 |
| Keybuk | ok, what happens if you disable powernowd and then also | 08:11 |
| Trae | what was that tail command from before? (no longer have history :( | 08:12 |
| tseng | 13:56 < jcole> Trae: tail -f /var/log/messages | grep -i acpi | 08:12 |
| Trae | tseng danke | 08:12 |
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| Keybuk | sudo sh -c 'echo -n demand > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor' | 08:13 |
| Trae | Keybuk yessir... you were saying? | 08:13 |
| Trae | ahh | 08:13 |
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| Trae | Keybuk I don't have scaling_govenor | 08:14 |
| Trae | oh wait | 08:15 |
| Trae | sorry | 08:15 |
| Trae | typo | 08:15 |
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| Trae | keep typing something wrong I think.. let me get on irc again and paste it to myself as a msg | 08:17 |
| Trae | hmm | 08:18 |
| Trae | I get this Keybuk: | 08:18 |
| Trae | line: 0 echo write error invalid argument | 08:18 |
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| === Trae is now known as Trae2 | ||
| Keybuk | cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_governors | 08:19 |
| Trae2 | k | 08:19 |
| Trae2 | I have: | 08:19 |
| Trae2 | userspace powersave ondemand conservative performance | 08:20 |
| Keybuk | oh, sorry | 08:20 |
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| Keybuk | echo -n ondemand :) | 08:20 |
| Keybuk | thinko | 08:20 |
| Trae | okies... heh, got this here so I could cut and paste | 08:20 |
| Trae | ;) | 08:20 |
| Trae | ok | 08:21 |
| Trae | that took | 08:21 |
| Trae | power off powernowd and try again? | 08:21 |
| Keybuk | power off powernowd first | 08:21 |
| Trae | http://www.shorttext.com/ab7ny | 08:22 |
| Robot101 | does powernowd predate ondemand? | 08:22 |
| Trae | fwiw | 08:22 |
| Trae | ok, I did that... did powernowd stop && the other comamnd you gave me with ondemand | 08:23 |
| Trae | and that seemed to take | 08:23 |
| === Trae fires up a video | ||
| Trae | Keybuk, anything else ? | 08:23 |
| Keybuk | no, try that | 08:23 |
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| Trae | okies | 08:23 |
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| Trae2 | ok.. here we go | 08:25 |
| Trae2 | Keybuk anything I should be tailing? | 08:25 |
| Keybuk | Trae: /var/log/dmesg may be interesting | 08:26 |
| Trae2 | k | 08:26 |
| Trae2 | is there a way I can monitor temp? | 08:28 |
| Keybuk | watch "acpi -V" | 08:28 |
| Trae2 | k | 08:29 |
| Trae2 | 63 | 08:29 |
| Trae2 | Keybuk mind if I /q you these tmps? | 08:29 |
| Keybuk | sure | 08:29 |
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| Mithrandir | janimo: are you aware that we're getting close to a new knot release? You might want to make sure that xubuntu is in good shape over the next couple of days. | 08:55 |
| === Trae2 reads | ||
| janimo | Mithrandir: yes aware that it is planned for Thu | 08:55 |
| janimo | will test it tomorrow | 08:55 |
| janimo | Gloubiboulga: started testing otday as well | 08:55 |
| Mithrandir | janimo: goodie; just wanted to make sure you were aware of it. | 08:56 |
| crimsun | the daily seems fine here fwiw, though I only tested clean and not a dist-upgrade. | 08:56 |
| lucas | is the switch from powernowd to the ondemand cpufreq governor considered for edgy, for systems which support ondemand ? | 08:56 |
| lucas | I was reading the paper from OLS about ondemand, and it really looks impressive | 08:57 |
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| jdong | lucas: I'm not sure | 08:59 |
| jdong | but ondemand is what I use :) | 08:59 |
| jdong | it's much more responsive than powernowd | 09:00 |
| lucas | what's the clean way to switch from powernowd to ondemand ? | 09:00 |
| jdong | but that's gonna require some rewiring at the acpi-support level | 09:00 |
| jdong | remove powernowd | 09:00 |
| Keybuk | I meant to chat to mjg59 about that at the weekend | 09:00 |
| jdong | I currently just hacked /etc/acpi/power.sh | 09:00 |
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| lucas | ok | 09:01 |
| jdong | make sure your cpufreq modules are probed in | 09:01 |
| jdong | either via /etc/modules or do it in power.sh, too | 09:01 |
| lucas | I was more wondering about edgy than about my own laptop | 09:01 |
| jdong | right | 09:02 |
| jdong | I hope to see edgy switch away from powernowd | 09:02 |
| jdong | for yourself, you can actually just use ac.d and battery.d in /etc/acpi | 09:02 |
| jdong | no need to butcher power.sh | 09:02 |
| jdong | but Keybuk, pretty please follow up on ondemand for edgy :) | 09:03 |
| jdong | or at least make powernowd poll more frequently | 09:03 |
| lucas | the problem is that ondemand requires many more switches than powernowd | 09:03 |
| lucas | so it's inefficient with processors without fast freq switching | 09:03 |
| jdong | speedsteps need to be blacklisted | 09:03 |
| jdong | most modern CPU's switch pretty fast | 09:04 |
| jdong | enough that you don't notice | 09:04 |
| jdong | but I can see needing branching code and cpu detection :-/ | 09:04 |
| jdong | which leads me to believe it won't be ready for edgy | 09:04 |
| jdong | for sure any pentium M / core duo can be whitelisted | 09:04 |
| jdong | and I'm pretty sure most turion / athlon64 are fine | 09:05 |
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| jdong | but celeron M's are not for sure | 09:05 |
| jdong | the ones that scale from 300MHz up to 1.xGHz | 09:05 |
| jdong | they lag horribly on ondemand | 09:05 |
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| zyg1 | hey | 09:19 |
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| clee | is there a channel for the hwdb? | 09:21 |
| sladen | clee: /query ogra | 09:21 |
| clee | sladen: ah, that was the nick! thanks. | 09:21 |
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| Trae | Keybuk, thank you again for your time on this matter. You have been most helpful, courteous and attentative. :) | 09:33 |
| Trae | Keybuk, quick question... any way I can make these changes "stick" between reboots? Like, how can I safely disable powernowd "The Ubuntu Way" so I don't break things? | 09:34 |
| Trae | and will that ondemand echo thingy you had me do hold after a reboot, or will it require some special attention too? | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | Trae: for now, I'd just edit the top of /etc/init.d/powernowd; add the echo and exit 0 :p | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | or | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | rm /etc/rc2.d/S??powernowd | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | and add the echo to /etc/rc.local | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | actually, yeah, do the latter | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | there's module loading in the powernowd.early script you need | 09:37 |
| Trae | Keybuk, do those bugs close? Meaning, once they are marked fixed are they gone, or are they kept in an archive for historic purposes on launchpad? | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | kept for historical purposes, but marked as closed | 09:38 |
| Trae | k | 09:38 |
| Trae | I could just add the two commands to /etc/rc.local at boot right? | 09:39 |
| Trae | I've not used it in eons | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | right | 09:39 |
| Trae | after the esac thingy | 09:40 |
| Keybuk | esac ? | 09:40 |
| Trae | fwiw, I do Graphics with Linux... I don't code, soo... if I sound uninformed, that's the reason why :) | 09:40 |
| Trae | it's at the end of the /etc/init.d/rc.local | 09:41 |
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| Keybuk | Trae: I know, we've actually met | 09:43 |
| Trae | Keybuk, we have? | 09:43 |
| Trae | Keybuk, uh oh | 09:43 |
| Trae | :) | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | Trae: ahh, /etc/rc.local not /etc/init.d/rc.local (the latter runs the former) | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | Trae: LWE 1999, iirc | 09:43 |
| Trae | Keybuk, sweet.... that was a great show | 09:43 |
| Trae | all the linux.com banners all over San Jose | 09:44 |
| Trae | hehe | 09:44 |
| Keybuk | I used to run segfault.org :p | 09:44 |
| Trae | what was your nick then? | 09:44 |
| Keybuk | still Keybuk | 09:44 |
| Trae | omg | 09:44 |
| Trae | Scott!! | 09:44 |
| Trae | hahaha | 09:44 |
| Trae | You should have said it was you. :P | 09:44 |
| Trae | I never know you by Keybuk | 09:44 |
| Keybuk | hehe | 09:45 |
| Trae | but immediately recognized SJR ;) | 09:45 |
| Trae | from the whois | 09:45 |
| Trae | hmm, didn't I bug you via email recently? *chuckle* | 09:45 |
| Keybuk | umm, it's possible | 09:45 |
| Trae | at any rate, /me hunts for /etc/rc.local | 09:46 |
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| ogra_ | lfittl, hey ... blender moves to universe .... | 10:09 |
| ogra_ | so have fun with it :) | 10:09 |
| lfittl | ogra_: very nice, how come? | 10:10 |
| ogra_ | space probs on th edubuntu CD | 10:11 |
| ogra_ | edubuntu was what kept it in main ... | 10:11 |
| ogra_ | it should move to universe during this week .... | 10:11 |
| lfittl | will get 2.42a synced/merged after it is back to universe :) | 10:11 |
| jdong | Keybuk: ping | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | jdong: hey | 10:12 |
| jdong | Keybuk: the latest k3b backport was "rejected" from the archive | 10:12 |
| jdong | k3b: Version newer than that in BACKPORTS. 0.12.17-1ubuntu2~dapper1 >= 0.12.16-1ubuntu3~dapper1 | 10:12 |
| jdong | :-/ | 10:12 |
| Keybuk | right ... ? | 10:13 |
| jdong | I meant to have the new 0.12.17 backport replace the 0.12.16 backport that did not build | 10:13 |
| jdong | does the current backports system not work that way? | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | you'll have to be a bit more verbose, sorry | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | I did a backport of k3b for you | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | and that has been rejected because there was already a backport in the archive? | 10:14 |
| jdong | right | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | was the backport-in-the-archive version higher or lower than the one I did? | 10:14 |
| jdong | the one in the archive was lower | 10:14 |
| Keybuk | ok | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | and it rejected? | 10:15 |
| jdong | right | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | soyuz bug then | 10:15 |
| jdong | k :) | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | please file a bug in launchpad | 10:15 |
| jdong | where in launchpad? | 10:15 |
| Kamion | /products/soyuz | 10:15 |
| jdong | k | 10:15 |
| HiddenWolf | +filebug | 10:15 |
| HiddenWolf | ;) | 10:15 |
| Kamion | ew | 10:15 |
| Kamion | it's got a hardcoded check for *everything* that it's not newer than whatever's in the corresponding backports pocket | 10:16 |
| Kamion | nobody thought to exclude backports from that check apparently :) | 10:16 |
| Kamion | I'm not convinced the check is a good idea anyway - if we want to supersede the backport, then tough, we want to supersede it | 10:16 |
| Kamion | please subscribe me to the bug you file and I'll try to explain that | 10:16 |
| jdong | Kamion: you are subscribed to bug 58144 | 10:18 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 58144 in soyuz "Backport is rejected if an older backport is already there" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/58144 | 10:18 |
| Kamion | thanks | 10:18 |
| jdong | and oh yeah, NEW is ok right? (for packages that are new to Edgy and backported to Dapper) | 10:19 |
| jdong | i.e. someone will eventually allow it through, right? | 10:19 |
| Kamion | well, that happened in the first round of backports and it got processed ... | 10:22 |
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| mvo | Keybuk: did someone told you already that upstart made it onto heise.de? (I guess so, given that the news item is a couple of hours old). still nice to see | 10:23 |
| Keybuk | what's heise.de? | 10:23 |
| thom | german tech news site | 10:23 |
| ogra | *the* german IT news site | 10:23 |
| mvo | Keybuk: its the most popular german tech news site | 10:23 |
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| schnabel | hello | 10:24 |
| ogra | Keybuk, http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/77421 | 10:24 |
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| ogra | happy bablefishing :) | 10:25 |
| Keybuk | heh | 10:25 |
| Lure | wow, and 300 comments on the story... | 10:25 |
| ogra | heh, they praise the dependencies you can add through events :P | 10:27 |
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| jordi | is edgy at upstream freeze now? | 10:31 |
| crimsun | for main, yes. | 10:31 |
| jordi | ick | 10:31 |
| Kamion | has been for ages | 10:31 |
| jordi | I guess :) | 10:31 |
| Kamion | we're nearly at feature freeze | 10:31 |
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| Kamion | to my abject terror | 10:31 |
| jordi | oh well. nano 2.0 about to hit the streets, it'd had been nice to have the round version number | 10:32 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: GET CODING! | 10:32 |
| _ion | Talking of which, /me hasn't seen new stuff in the upstart repository for a while. ;-) | 10:33 |
| infinity | jordi: I doubt anyone other than the nano maintainer (pats you on the head) would much care what version it is. :) | 10:33 |
| jordi | infinity: heh, even I don't care too much. | 10:34 |
| jordi | more when I know the changes are basically translation and veeery minor nitpicks | 10:34 |
| jordi | (since 1.3.12) | 10:34 |
| infinity | jordi: Frankly, I'm shocked to discover that anything so featureless even gets upstream development, except for the occasional bitrot fixing. | 10:34 |
| jordi | there's plenty of stuff nano needs to get still | 10:35 |
| infinity | "removed from the archive"? | 10:35 |
| jordi | well, give vim to your average ubuntu newbie | 10:35 |
| infinity | "replaced by ae, we were right in 1999, damnit"? | 10:35 |
| _ion | jordi: A good idea. :-) | 10:36 |
| infinity | Yeah, vi's a poor choice for anyone who's not an old-skool UNIX hacker. Modal editors are confusing. | 10:36 |
| === _ion guesses the average newbie uses gedit. | ||
| jordi | give them gedit when xorg gets fucked up :) | 10:37 |
| infinity | I remember backgrounding and killing vi out of sheer frustration the first time I used it on a university machine in ~1995. | 10:37 |
| bddebian | hehe | 10:37 |
| jordi | infinity: hehe | 10:37 |
| infinity | And the fact that I knew how to background and kill tasks, but not exit my editor, says something. | 10:37 |
| thom | infinity: at least you knew how to back.. | 10:37 |
| thom | yeah | 10:37 |
| ogra | grmbl ... next tim i check if a lp bug is fixed before i waste resources ... now i got three identical iso builds ... | 10:39 |
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| HiddenWolf | ogra: one for the public, one for the archive, and one to put on the wall. ;) | 10:39 |
| ogra | neither will be usable :) | 10:39 |
| HiddenWolf | sentimental value? a reminder? ;) | 10:40 |
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| Keybuk | mjg59: just gonna take a quick break, then can I borrow you for five minutes | 10:53 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Sure | 10:54 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: see comment at bottom of bug #22336 | 10:54 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 22336 in Ubuntu "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Needs info] http://launchpad.net/bugs/22336 | 10:54 |
| mjg59 | Hadn't we already decided that ondemand made more sense where possible? | 10:55 |
| mjg59 | I've already discussed this with mdz | 10:55 |
| mjg59 | Hang on. Let me find a Celeron and test this... | 10:56 |
| Keybuk | yeah I thought we had | 10:57 |
| Keybuk | how were you planning to decide which? | 10:58 |
| mjg59 | Let me check the source again | 10:58 |
| mjg59 | But I /believe/ that ondemand will fail if it won't work | 10:58 |
| mjg59 | That is, attempting to switch the governer to ondemand will fail | 10:58 |
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| mjg59 | if (policy->cpuinfo.transition_latency > | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | (TRANSITION_LATENCY_LIMIT * 1000)) { | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | printk(KERN_WARNING "ondemand governor failed to load " | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | "due to too long transition latency\n"); | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | Right | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | return -EINVAL; | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | So try to set /sys/devices/system/cpu/*/cpufreq/scaling_governor to ondemand | 11:00 |
| mjg59 | If that fails with EINVAL, set it to userspace and run powernowd | 11:00 |
| lucas | failed to load. does it mean it still shows up in scaling_available_governors ? | 11:01 |
| Keybuk | ok | 11:01 |
| mjg59 | No, the failure is when it's started | 11:01 |
| mjg59 | I think it'll still appear in the available governors | 11:01 |
| mjg59 | Though I'm not certain of that | 11:01 |
| lucas | it would be easier to just grep for in in available_governors if it doesn't show up | 11:02 |
| mjg59 | No, by the looks of it it'll still be in available_governors | 11:04 |
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| jdong_ | does preload actually make things load faster, or is it a scam like readahead most of the times :) | 11:04 |
| Keybuk | jdong: scam | 11:05 |
| Keybuk | well, it does make things a bit faster, at the cost of other things | 11:05 |
| bddebian | heh | 11:05 |
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| bddebian | Keybuk: OK, wtf does ROM mean? :-) | 11:14 |
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| Keybuk | Request-Of-Maintainer | 11:15 |
| bddebian | Ah.. | 11:15 |
| Keybuk | http://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt | 11:15 |
| Keybuk | ^ cf. top of there | 11:15 |
| === bddebian always has to feel stupid :-( | ||
| Keybuk | heh, you weren't to know | 11:17 |
| Keybuk | I had to ask once | 11:17 |
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| Burgwork | bddebian, don't feel bad. I had to ask several times what FTBFS meant about 18 months ago | 11:37 |
| infinity | Burgwork: What does FTBFS mean? | 11:37 |
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| mdz | infinity: You're fired. | 11:39 |
| bddebian | Heh | 11:39 |
| infinity | Hard to resist. | 11:39 |
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| === Burgwork grumbles at FC4 and desktop-multiplier | ||
| Burgwork | anybody say thing? | 11:40 |
| === mvo giggles | ||
| tseng | Burgwork: nope. | 11:40 |
| tseng | Burgwork: but infinity was fired | 11:40 |
| bddebian | Burgwork: :) | 11:40 |
| bddebian | hah | 11:40 |
| Burgwork | damn. going to miss infinity | 11:41 |
| infinity | Lies. | 11:41 |
| Burgwork | even if he is a traitor to his own country ;) | 11:41 |
| bddebian | FTBFS == Forgot To Bring Fricking Shot-glass? | 11:41 |
| infinity | FTBFS, loosely translated, is "That Which Keeps infinity Employed" | 11:42 |
| infinity | The reason the letters don't seem to match up is because it's translated from the original Latin. | 11:42 |
| bddebian | haha | 11:42 |
| azeem | what's infinity in latin? | 11:42 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: you're actually using that stuff? ;-) | 11:42 |
| jdong|coreduo | lol | 11:42 |
| infinity | azeem: infinitum, but let's not split hairs. | 11:43 |
| jdong|coreduo | mvo: do you have anything to do with opera in dapper-commercial? | 11:43 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, we dog food quite extensively. Mostly it is good, but occasionally we get all sorts of pain | 11:43 |
| bddebian | Hah | 11:44 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: is DM more stable on FC than on dapper? | 11:45 |
| slomo | hm, what happened to the 2nd powerpc buildd? | 11:45 |
| mvo | jdong|coreduo: Mithrandir uploaded opera into dapper-commercial. why? | 11:45 |
| LaserJock | Apple pushed the self-destruct button? | 11:46 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, it is mostly stable. We have a set hardware formula though. | 11:46 |
| Burgwork | radeon 7000 | 11:46 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, on my i915 box, it simply power cycles constantly | 11:46 |
| jdong|coreduo | mvo: users are requesting the 9.01 update | 11:47 |
| infinity | slomo: Weird grid failure in the DC, being investigated, current ETA unknown. | 11:48 |
| slomo | infinity: thanks... so i really have to wait for gcj to finish ;) | 11:50 |
| infinity | slomo: Yes. :P | 11:50 |
| jdong|coreduo | crimsun: is there any chance for azureus 2.5.0.0 from sid -> edgy? | 11:51 |
| jdong|coreduo | our ubuntu version is pretty unusable | 11:51 |
| bddebian | jdong|coreduo: It's on the merges list | 11:52 |
| jdong|coreduo | ok, cool | 11:52 |
| jdong|coreduo | nvm then | 11:52 |
| === jdong|coreduo goes back to the backports list | ||
| bddebian | I think I tried it once but it didn't build or something strange | 11:52 |
| === mvo goes to bed | ||
| jdong|coreduo | I wouldn't be surprised | 11:52 |
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| slomo | bddebian: but nobody will probably touch it... it's not the easiest merge and the tarballs differ and doko did fairly large changes | 11:53 |
| bddebian | slomo: I tried :) | 11:53 |
| bddebian | Later folks | 11:54 |
| slomo | bddebian: me too but i gave up :P maybe doko cares for it at some point | 11:54 |
| === jdong|coreduo joins ktorrent camp in the meantime :) | ||
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| geser | infinity: could you please giveback mail-notification and link-monitor-applet on sparc and powerpc? | 12:00 |
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| infinity | geser: Done. | 12:02 |
| geser | thanks | 12:02 |
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