[12:09] tnx . [12:13] boy is archive.ubuntu.com slow today :-/ === iceman [n=iceman@124.219-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === iceman [n=iceman@124.219-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Bye!"] === bradb [n=bradb@modemcable048.58-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:23] jdong: we've been having a weekend + UK bank holiday after getting back from the sprint - cut us a *little* slack please :) [12:23] jdong: it's Keybuk's archive day tomorrow, so I'm sure he'll catch up for you [12:24] Kamion: sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude/impatient.... this is really the first time I've worked with ubuntu-archive... just curious [12:24] typically archive processing does not happen on weekends [12:24] I'm patient [12:24] unless it's world-shattering urgent [12:24] but... it's a new version of k3b... it's gotta be world-shattering urgent :) [12:24] we caught up on most things except syncs and some of the promotion/demotion details on Friday === jdong passes time by converting laptop to XFS :) [12:26] infinity: ping [12:26] infinity: the status of ruby on powerpc hasn't changed. it has been broken for months now. [12:27] I can't do anything about it since it requires buildd access to investigate (the same packages work fine in debian) === kiko [n=kiko@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Left] [12:34] fabbione PING === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === grexk [n=grexk@124.107.72.42] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sebest [n=sebest@sebest.ovibes.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:08] Howdy [01:09] z\, he's in vacation for two weeks, what are you looking for? === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:11] shackan i have to talk with fabio about a possible bug. [01:13] and i should to talk with fabio about my possible employment. [01:13] at canonical? [01:13] at home [01:13] http://www.ubuntu.com/employment#head-ee181be4e2f101318f548b6e62a74711085e9224 [01:13] :D [01:14] oh [01:15] so you're a.. security expert? [01:15] i work in this sector. [01:15] I see [01:15] where ? === treitter [n=treitter@adsl-75-22-179-141.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:16] is there a "best practice" for a package that only _partially_ conflicts with another? (ie, overwriting one of its config files)? [01:16] hello everyone [01:17] I want to create a package that installs some config files in /etc, but I don't want to have to patch a million different packages, just to overwrite their default config files [01:17] shackan sorry.. [01:17] but why u talk about me in english if u r italian ? [01:18] z\, because this is a mostly english channel? [01:18] I'll second Burgwork [01:18] ok. [01:18] z [01:19] z\: I hope that doesn't sound like we're against people speaking their own language [01:19] treitter: it's not allowed to just prance upon another's conffile. [01:19] uhm, ok. [01:19] crimsun: of course. But is there any easier way? [01:20] crimsun: "prance"? I was thinking "clober" but you were more eloquent as usual [01:20] z\: but the downside of people speaking in another language is that other people who might want to participate might not be able to [01:20] treitter: call a helper method to adjust the conffile owned by the package you're prancing upon [01:20] crimsun: in postinst? [01:21] treitter: does the package [whose conffile is affected] offer a means of adjusting its conffile? [01:21] crimsun: not sure. Where/how would it offer this means? [01:23] treitter: section 10.7.4, Policy [01:23] crimsun: thanks! I'll check it out === TomB| [n=ownthebo@AC8ED6F1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === shackan_ [n=shackan@host63-100.pool8259.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:47] someone ought to poke this bug: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/57736 [01:47] Malone bug 57736 in openssl "HW engines are missing" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] === desrt will confirm it at least -- but someone who knows ought to pay it some attention === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:51] keybuk might be one such person [01:51] possibly. [01:51] Keybuk; i've found that you muck around with openssh from time to time. are you also an openssl type? [01:51] err [01:52] I know how to connect the two bits together [01:52] that's a very strong no. [01:52] i think i'm confusing Keybuk with Kamion again [01:52] sorry. [01:52] yes [01:52] Kamion is the openssh maintainer [01:53] desrt: dude, you have met them in real life! [01:53] i have this problem when i talk to people on irc i often don't think about who they actually are [01:54] now, was desrt the short, fat, loud one? [01:54] or the tall, cute one with the long hair? [01:54] tall and with long hair, certainly [01:54] perhaps also loud [01:54] whiprush, you need to educate the Edubuntu people all about profiles, etc. As they are looking for stuff sabayon doesn't offer, but don't have a clear roadmap [01:55] Burgundavia was the cute one [01:55] Burgwork: I can talk to ogra at the ltsp hackathon in a few weeks [01:55] desrt, not hard. Keybuk is the crazy one. Kamion is the sane and stable one [01:55] whiprush, excellent, but ogra isn't doing the work. LaserJock and cbx33 are [01:55] gee, thanks [01:56] Burgwork: ok, you have a link to a spec or something? [01:56] edubuntu-dynamic-menus [01:56] ta [01:56] whiprush: but I've had to totally redo the implementation === jcole [n=jcole@palrel1.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:56] as sabayon hasn't worked out for what we'd like to do === jcole [n=jcole@palrel1.hp.com] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [01:57] Burgwork: you mean between releases Kamion is sane and stable [01:57] the idea looks neat LaserJock [01:57] Burgwork: i wouldnt anger him after his 15th cd build === jcole [n=jcole@palrel1.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:59] Kamion is certainly more conservative than I [01:59] I wouldn't say he was either sane nor stable :p [01:59] unless he's a special kind of sane that's the opposite of insanity, rather than simply its abscence [02:00] and seems to play a mean Mao [02:00] i get this installing kubuntu -> /usr/share/debconf/confmodule: line 42: 3: Bad file descriptor [02:00] tseng, ineed [02:00] ctrl-alt-f2 and killing dpkg lets it continue === Keybuk giggles at the "when will upstart be in Fedora" mail [02:01] upstart works for me on the X40 if you're looking for feedback [02:01] jdub; what kind of cash does the foundation have kicking around? [02:02] his is the offending line --> echo "$@" >&3 [02:02] desrt: USD [02:03] er. i meant more like the order of magnatude than the variety [02:03] whiprush: yeah, it has worked for everyone. I'm quite shocked actually [02:03] *magnitude [02:03] the only thing I don't understand is why upstart is so much quicker at shutting down the machine than sysvinit [02:03] heh [02:03] I worked out why it was faster at booting [02:03] desrt: do you really expect a real answer to that? [02:03] jdub; ya. i do. [02:04] desrt: ok, your expectations are not in line with reality. :-) [02:04] the answer should be a solid "none" or otherwise an approximate amount [02:04] desrt: that number was public at the time of announcement [02:04] but in any case it should be public knowledge [02:04] google://ubuntu+foundation+dollars appears to give you the same answer multiple times [02:04] $10 M [02:05] oh crap. not that foundation [02:05] the gnome on [02:05] iirc it was 10 mil to ubuntu 10 mil to foundation at start [02:05] desrt: it is reported publically, but not generally discussed on random irc channels [02:06] same story for gnome too, i guess? [02:06] whiprush: is it faster at shutting down for you too? [02:06] desrt: i'm answering for gnome [02:06] gotcha. [02:06] so how do i find out? [02:06] desrt: i don't believe anyone here can answer for TUF [02:06] desrt: mail board-list [02:07] desrt: though you'll obviously get questions as to why [02:07] gnome isnt really a non-profit org. so as to release that as public info is not a have to [02:08] Keybuk: did you do the upload so that upstart is now default as /sbin/init ? [02:08] Keybuk: I can't tell either way, though I have not measured it. [02:08] sladen: not yet, still fiddling with the shutdown tool [02:09] deciding which of shutdown, halt, reboot, poweroff will be the "canonical" one and which are ubuntu-compat-sysv fodder [02:09] I vaguely feel that since reboot is the syscall, that one should be, but meh [02:10] Keybuk: make a new one called sys_reboot and overload that [02:10] eh? [02:11] whiprush: get my pm? [02:11] Keybuk: sys_reboot is the name of the syscall [02:11] LaserJock: I responded, I think it's me not registering with freenode again [02:11] Keybuk: or "yes", I agree that reboot should be the canonical binary [02:11] whiprush: ah, well maybe #edubuntu real quick? [02:11] sure === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:12] Keybuk: I think you should provide redhat style 'service' compatibility [02:12] sladen: /usr/bin/service ? [02:12] or sbin rather === doko [n=doko@dslb-088-073-065-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:13] tseng: yup. the red hat jockeys love it; it's also marginally more nice (as in "making it simpler for the user") than either type 'initctl' or 'etc/init.d/foo' [02:14] maybe we could make a vfs too === jdub spanks tseng [02:15] so they can cd to /etc/sysconfig/wtf/network/network-scripts/network-interfaces/maybe-stuff-here === tseng kids, 'service' is nice :) [02:15] /roflcopter/ [02:15] sladen: how do you mean? [02:15] I'd vaguely figured on having /usr/sbin/start and /usr/sbin/stop [02:16] start apache [02:16] stop smoking [02:16] initctl is just a temporary thing [02:17] keybuk: start and stop are quite major pieces of namespace, especially when you add restart and reload [02:17] sladen: true, but then so is init [02:17] and I think once you have init, you get to be arrogant about your namespace [02:17] Keybuk: and especially if (as was talked about) 'start', 'stop', 'wankbadger' become an arbitary first parameter [02:18] "wankbadger" ? [02:18] Keybuk: the one I'd really like is MacOSX 'open' [02:18] haha [02:18] open? [02:18] Keybuk: 'foobar' 'moo' 'crack' 'speeeeefial' [02:18] eh? [02:19] I'm clearly not following you here [02:20] Keybuk: Mac OSX (a modern Unix-based OS made by a company called Apple), has a command called 'open' that is performs what ever the equivalent of a double-click (eg. actually a mime-match) would be. 'open foldername' brings up the equivalent of nautilus, 'open foobar.mp3' brings up itunes, 'open moo.pdf' brings up the doc viewer [02:20] alias open=gnome-open [02:20] Keybuk: rocking. [02:21] I didn't follow the foobar, moo, crack, bit [02:21] Keybuk: $x [02:21] what's $x ? [02:21] Keybuk: defininate indefinate [02:21] Keybuk: "foobar" [02:21] whuh? === sladen rewinds [02:21] what has all this got to do with upstart? [02:22] Keybuk: who is a good person to ping about FF in edgy? [02:22] gnomefreak: iwj [02:22] Keybuk: 'start' and 'stop' are major pieces of namespace, check? [02:22] gnomefreak: iwj [02:22] figured as much ty guys [02:22] sladen: right, no package has ever dared use them as binary names [02:22] I think init has the right to :p [02:23] Keybuk: 'reload' and 'restart' are also names that make sense, check? [02:23] no [02:23] neither of those are in the upstart job life cycle [02:23] start and stop are very special [02:23] Keybuk: s/job life cycle/default state machine/ [02:24] s/default// [02:24] Keybuk: 'start' and 'stop' are signals to the state machine [02:24] right, start and stop are the only two external changes permitted [02:25] reload, restart, kickupthebum, etc. don't need to be represented in the state machine, because they don't form part of the life cycle -- they're just separate actions (and we're off the spec here, as I deliberately omitted them from it ) [02:27] Keybuk: what's your proposed suggestion (whether it's in the spec or not) for sending arbitrary signals? [02:28] oooh, 'signal' is not taken either [02:28] for reload to make sense in the state machine, it would mean that it would have to be a goal [02:28] so you'd have "start", "stop" and "reload" [02:28] maybe 'kill' should correctly be called 'signal' [02:29] the reload goal change would need to kill the running process to force a state change, and move the job into the reloading state, which would then be able to have a "reload script" that did some magic to ... oh, oops, we killed the process === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.231.51] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:29] so it doesn't really make sense for them to be considered first class properties of a job [02:29] if you take a gui, there would be pretty toolbar buttons for start and stop [02:30] but things like "graceful restart" would be on a right-click menu for that job only [02:30] Keybuk: 'reload' is an arbitary signal (eg. apache may implement it with kill -HUP `cat $pidfile` ) [02:30] and then you get into messy things like having to be able to ask init for a list of actions on the job, provide translatable descriptions for them, etc. [02:31] Keybuk: 'restart' is a goal in the state machine (I think). or is it send(apache,stop), spin(apache,stop), send(apache,start) [02:31] restart doesn't need to be a goal [02:32] Keybuk: eg. the latter [02:32] just kill the process, but don't change the goal [02:32] if it's a daemon, it'll go through respawning [02:32] if it's a task, it'll go stopping/starting [02:32] Keybuk: I think that if it /can/ be implemented as a layer on top, then it shouldn't be in the core spec (which is a faily good API design rule) [02:32] (which you probably don't want) [02:32] yeah [02:32] another way of looking at is that you could have /etc/event.d/reload-apache [02:32] which has [02:32] on reload-apache [02:33] script [02:33] kill -HUP $(pidof --job apache) [02:33] end script [02:33] -- [02:33] Keybuk: I think for sanity, it should be /etc/upstart.d/apache.reload [02:34] we settled on event.d :) [02:34] I'm vaguely avoiding using the word upstart anywhere except in the tarball name [02:34] the daemon is "init" [02:34] Keybuk: it would be nice if the signals for a particular task sorted alphabetically next to each other [02:34] I'm pretty happy that we can implement signals/actions/etc. on top of the current model [02:34] like I was able to implement dependencies [02:34] Keybuk: apache, apache.start, apache.stop, apache.reload [02:35] which, to me, suggests the model is simple and flexible enough [02:35] Keybuk: yup [02:35] though I'm not yet happy with the event naming/value [02:35] the main unhappy is that I want [02:35] "on apache" to mean "the apache job is running" but "on checkroot" to mean "the checkroot job is stopping" ("has finished") [02:36] and at the moment, there's no "null" values [02:36] so you can't do "while default-route is down" [02:36] because it's not down until it's been up at least once :p === sbalneav [n=sbalneav@S0106000b6a5631f9.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:37] and then there's "on default-route" ... does that mean when it's up, or when it changes, etc.? [02:39] I suspect the world would have been simpler if I just started off with "string only" events [02:39] but then I'd've still wanted to generate them for jobs [02:39] Keybuk: I just went to the toilet and I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Verb_Object [02:40] hmm? === lgespee [n=lgespee@loe.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bronson [n=bronson@c-67-188-111-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:43] Keybuk: saw the upstart stuff, very nice. Will be a HUGE help with diskless, where large chunks of your devices aren't there. [02:44] Keybuk, upstart really looks nice, will it be stable enough to go into Main before Edgy? Or isn't that clear at all at the moment? [02:44] lgespee: I don't see why not; it seems very stable [02:44] plus, its edgy. [02:44] if its not bleeding, its not ready for edgy [02:44] heh [02:45] edgy makes me want to gouge out my eyes its so bleeding [02:45] Keybuk: wow, really great, looks very promising [02:45] or something like that [02:45] zul, it's like living on the edge ;) [02:45] Keybuk: SVO -> Subject, Verb, Object. Lingustics, Sentence construction. It may help with both the command line tools and the config file format === rgould [n=rgould@S0106000f3d657273.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:46] Keybuk, as a Ubuntu-NL teammember I heard soem rumours from teh Ubuntu-NL leader, but didn't actually believe it :D [02:46] well great to know, I won't bother you all any further, keep up the great work, bye === lgespee [n=lgespee@loe.xs4all.nl] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [02:47] Keybuk: if you are converting "on apache" -> "the apache job is running" -> "apache is running" [02:48] I'm starting to wonder whether we shouldn't split the events [02:48] so reserve "on" for system events, "at" for time events, etc. [02:48] but that bloats the config [02:49] Keybuk: if the format needs explanation then perhaps it's wrong :) [02:50] right [02:50] right now, I need to explain how it works, so it's wrong [02:50] and I really don't like that people can do "initctl trigger shutdown" [02:50] because that doesn't do the right thing [02:50] Keybuk: So can we tie upstart in with gcc? [02:50] mjg59: umm? [02:50] So your system gets rebuilt on every boot? [02:50] heh [02:51] w00t [02:53] that would get the gentoo guys on board [02:53] start script [02:53] sure fire way of getting the gentoo guys to use it ;) [02:53] haha [02:53] cd /src [02:53] make [02:53] end script [02:53] exec /sbin/binary [02:53] -Olatest_hardware_from_this_boot [02:54] Keybuk: start shell script start python script? [02:54] sladen: shell [02:54] Keybuk: why not make it really easy, take it out of the config file and do the dpkg thing of have thing.start [02:55] sladen: what happens when you need to have multiple thing.start ? [02:55] people would confuse thing.start with "run this when thing starts" [02:55] so you'd have someone not thing shipping thing.start [02:55] Keybuk: "would confuse" ? [02:56] right [02:56] so right now, it's obvious that the "start script" bit in /etc/event.d/udev is something for the udev author to use [02:56] action start, action stop [02:56] if it were a separate file, e.g. /etc/event.d/udev.start you could end up with some other package trying to ship a udev.start script so that it's run before udev starts [02:56] when it should be a separate job entirely that happens to be run when udev is starting [02:57] Keybuk: in which case that would break the policy [02:58] Keybuk: technical solutions to policy issues and policy solutions to technical issues generally don't work [02:59] true but policy issues are often caused by bad technical solutions [02:59] Keybuk: the only thing that would 'prevent' another package shipping their own '/etc/event.d/udev' would be dpkg complaining that the same file is owned by two packages [02:59] I'm reasonably sure that upstart needs to be very simple [02:59] and not allow arbitrary expansion in any number of directions [02:59] but instead just allow lots of building blocks [03:00] the more complex levels of interactions one tries to layer on top, the more of a headache one gets figuring out where the deadlocks can lie [03:00] start == pre-start, stop == post-start, kill == pre-stop ? [03:00] err? [03:00] start = pre-running, stop = post-running [03:00] there is no kill [03:01] could rename them pre and post ;) [03:01] Keybuk: (thinking of dpkg-style naming of start/stop scripts), there is {pre,post}{inst,rm}. check? [03:02] renaming does seem like it might be more accurate [03:02] I'm thinking that the dpkg-style scripts are not a good design to follow [03:02] given everyone has to read the manual every time they try and use them === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:02] and people are might be less like to try to run 'pre-start' directly, and especially unlikely to run 'post-start' directly :) [03:03] s/like/likely/ [03:03] you can't run them directly ;) [03:03] they're in the config file [03:04] having them separate would make 'script' and 'exec' redundant [03:04] no it wouldn't [03:05] you can exec /path/to/script already if you want [03:05] Keybuk: anything that can be done inside script ... endscript or exec "path/filename" could be done with just having "path/filename" exist === cr3 [n=marc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/cr3] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:05] then how do you specify path/filename ? [03:07] $base = "/etc/event.d/"; $who = "apache"; $action = "pre-start"; $filename = strcat($base,$who,$action); === bradb [n=bradb@modemcable048.58-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:07] that only replaces "start script" ... it doesn't replace "script" or "exec" [03:07] how do you specify the name of the daemon binary to run === jack_wyt [n=jack@221.221.146.241] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:08] Keybuk: man 2 symlink [03:08] err, I really don't think we should be symlinking daemons into /etc [03:08] that's a bad idea [03:09] Keybuk: why is that different to specifying the name of an executable in a configuration file, in etc? [03:10] one can be modified trivially in a text editor [03:10] one requires heavy filesystem lifting [03:10] "one file per config option" sounds a bit djbish [03:10] says the qmail advocate :) [03:11] Keybuk: why duplicate existing functionality? [03:11] sladen: what existing functionality? [03:11] Keybuk: databases and filesystems [03:11] Robot101: I use qmail because I know it [03:12] I know how it delivers mail, how it works, how to fix it, etc. [03:12] and I have no pressing desire or need to learn anything else [03:12] sladen: eh? [03:12] how have you strayed here? [03:13] Keybuk: I was just pulling your leg; I use postfix for the same reasons. I'll shut up now. :) [03:14] I really don't see how "always execs an executable at a fixed path on the filesystem, which means you must place one there or arrange a symlink to the right place" is better than "a line in the config file says what to exec, and provides arguments" [03:14] e.g. right now you can "exec /sbin/udev --daemon" [03:14] to do that with your proposal, I'd have to write an /etc/event.d/udev.exec script that had in it === freet15 [n=freet15@221.221.146.241] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:15] #!/bin/sh -e [03:15] exec /sbin/udev --daemon [03:15] Keybuk: if a symlink would do the job in a transparent fashion (in the less common case) and a shell script would do the job (in the more common case)---both of which are already core kernel functionality; which duplicate (obfuscate) those with 'exec' and 'script...endscript' options in a configuration file? [03:16] s/which/why/ === mat [n=mat@igoan/mat] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:20] Keybuk: I'm now coming around to the idea of to "pre-start" exec "/usr/bin/apache" "--daemon" "xyzzy" (or similar) in the config file [03:22] Keybuk: maybe I'm just untouched by the 'script' business and the idea of having two (very similar) methods in the config file, both of which can do each other [03:22] the difference between exec and script is pretty obvious [03:23] exec runs sh -c exec ... [03:23] oh. OH [03:23] script runs sh /dev/fd/%d and puts the lines up to end script in that [03:24] Keybuk: I had assumed 'exec' called 'execve()' [03:24] Keybuk: if you're still calling through the shell even for an exec then there isn't even a speed difference in its favour [03:24] it calls exec() directly if there's no interesting characters in the string [03:25] so "exec /sbin/udev --daemon" would just do exec({ "/sbin/udev", "--daemon" }), yes [03:25] Keybuk: and native exec() would be better as it functions even in the light of no shell === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:25] Keybuk: two codepaths for one command? [03:25] whereas exec /sbin/udev $FOO would call exec({ "/bin/sh", "-c", "/sbin/udev $FOO" }) [03:25] *shrug* [03:26] it seemed to be a copy semantic [03:26] Keybuk: just use 'script...endscript' for the secondone! [03:26] (sysvinit, cron and atd all do the same thing) === freeflying|away [n=freeflyi@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:26] the config file offers lots of short cuts [03:26] mostly because I'm lazy and like to put them in :p [03:26] e.g. "while FOO is BAR" is identical to "start when FOO is bar\nstop on FOO" [03:27] FOO and BAR being event identifiers ? [03:27] FOO being an event name, BAR being an event value [03:28] Keybuk: "while FOO is BAR"; do what? [03:28] real world example for doc-reading impaired ? :) [03:28] ok [03:28] so events have values [03:28] when you change the value of an event, the event is triggered with that value [03:28] the event is also triggered with no value [03:29] while FOO.state == 'stopped' [03:29] while FOO.state == 'stopped' do yeild [03:29] so if I set FOO to BAR, any jobs which have "on FOO" and "when FOO is BAR" will be started [03:29] uhh, pseudocode won't help me understand it? [03:30] Keybuk: but it helps *me* understand it [03:30] eh [03:30] FOO doesn't have state [03:30] it's an event, not a job [03:31] Keybuk: then that's an edge, not a level and you should be using 'if' not 'while' [03:31] "startup" is an event, "default-route is up" is an event [03:31] on startup [03:31] Keybuk: an event does not exist for a length of time, it happens in an instant [03:31] when default-route is up [03:31] would be those two equivalents [03:31] it happens that "while EVENT is VALUE" means your job is started WHEN EVENT is VALUE and stopped ON EVENT (ie whenever it changes to something else) [03:31] this has already noted to be confusing [03:32] Keybuk: a state does exist for a length of time, it is something that is achieved, or reached === freeflying [n=freeflyi@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:32] which was the beginning of this conversation [03:32] but the *event name* "default-route is up" does have some *state* information (that is, that the route is up :) [03:32] right [03:32] but "startup" doesn't [03:32] and then there's tricky ones [03:33] the event in this case is default-route.up [03:33] is "writable-filesystems" a one-shot event [03:33] or should there be a filesystems are writable state ? [03:33] so you can simply have on default-route.up [03:33] stop inventing syntax :p [03:33] ok ... [03:33] so what happens if one does "on default-route" instead ? [03:34] preferably on default-route.up do something [03:34] on default-route.up do start [03:34] the "do something" is always either "set the goal to start" or "set the goal to stop" [03:34] on default-route.down do stop [03:34] ok ... [03:34] now reverse that [03:34] on default-route.down do start [03:34] on default-route.up do stop [03:35] when will that get started? [03:35] the goal called 'start' will be set when an event goes past called 'default-route.down' [03:35] so people should call their events like 'mysql-running', 'mysql-updating' etc.., or just use 'mysql' for the event name and then read its state ? [03:35] right, so it won't get started until the network has come up and gone back down again [03:36] you'd need on startup do start [03:36] which may not be a bad thing, as it makes the world more clear [03:36] you could then have [03:36] on mysql.starting do start [03:36] on mysql.running do start [03:37] Keybuk: so that is an event, that that is what is currently broken in sysvinit (and worked around by having K??* scripts) [03:37] the latter could be just "on mysql", which is a different event, but triggered at the same time as running (for services) or stopping (for tasks) [03:37] so the syntax is . ? [03:37] I always fail to compile xen-source from edgy to dapper. http://pastebin.com/778461? [03:37] shackan_: event state is confusing, apparently [03:38] Keybuk: on mysql.isrunning() == true: do ... [03:38] Keybuk: (ignore the fact that it is puesudo code) [03:39] Keybuk: bah, state/event; level/edge; bah [03:39] ? [03:39] Keybuk: yes, "event state is confusing, apparently" [03:39] events *happen* on the transition of states [03:39] job events feel like they want to have state [03:40] "feel like they want to" ? omg :D [03:40] Keybuk: what is a "job event" [03:40] sladen: the events that occur every time a job changes state [03:40] maybe that's what I confused [03:40] let's hope upstart will never feel like willing to format my disks [03:41] the events should be single-fire things, the state should be in the job machine [03:41] I totally second the 'events happen on the transition of states' [03:41] the mysql *job* has state, and fires events when the state changes, which get forgotten once they're processed [03:41] shackan_: upstart's job is to get /other/ things to format your disks on its behalf :) [03:42] on idle [03:42] mke2fs /dev/root === z\ [n=pjphem@unaffiliated/madsheep] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [03:42] sladen, I tought its job was to take over the world? :) [03:43] shackan_: no, that's ubuntu's job. upstart is merely a means to an end [03:43] sladen: yeah, I really think events shouldn't have values and grab [03:43] Keybuk: seems that, for things to have state, they must have a way of querying if that state is true [03:43] crap [03:43] they should just be arbitrary strings [03:43] which may follow a naming pattern [03:43] yes [03:43] yes [03:45] on each transition, the previous state is left and the next on is entered [03:45] stopped -> started [03:45] o rly? (errrrr, sorry) [03:45] stop.left, start.entered. state == started [03:46] stopping -> starting :p [03:46] sladen, your pseudocode does actually confuse :p [03:46] maybe we should s/ing$//;s/ed$//g [03:46] sladen: that would be incorrect for the state machine [03:46] the job state has to be an "ing" because it is a present perfect(?) [03:47] ie. it's what the job is actually doing right now [03:47] the events could have different names, of course [03:47] shackan_: perhaps you could provide psuedocode that does /not/ confuse. I sometimes find your random comments confusing. [03:47] waiting -> starting [03:47] starting -> running [03:47] running-> stopping === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DAFC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:47] stopping -> waiting [03:47] are the primary transitions [03:48] post-stop, pre-start, post-start, pre-stop [03:49] yup [03:51] event are fired during transitions or when states are reached ? [03:51] +s [03:52] during transitions [03:52] waiting => "nothing is happening" [03:52] starting => "the job's start script (if any) is running" [03:52] running => "the job's primary process is running" [03:52] stopping => "the job's stop script (if any) is running" [03:53] so, if we go A -> B, when the 'on B' trigger will be fired, the current state will still be A ? [03:54] no, the state will be B, obviously, you went from A -> B :p [03:54] but you fired the event during the transition, before the state switched to B :) [03:55] isn't the definition of a transition that the state is switching? === sladen ponders. (mental exercise, rather than suggestion) What if the daemon periodically fired off events stating the current status of each 'job' [03:56] does it need to? [03:56] eww. polling. [03:56] shackan_: upstart's states are gated [03:57] ouch, maybe 'transition from A to B' should be a 'transition state' itself? (let's call it C) [03:57] ok, [03:57] you can only move from starting to running if the start script has terminated [03:57] btw, this is very similar to the mswindows service management api in terms of the state stuff [03:57] and, on boot, fired off 'is_stopped' events for each of the daemons it knows about [03:57] which, given the thing that moves the state is the child reaper for the start script, is not surprising :p [03:57] lifeless: *hides the book under his desk* [03:58] Keybuk: so, how do you moved from waiting->starting if the previous transition was not achieved [03:58] Keybuk: :) [03:58] sladen: you can't be in waiting if the previous transition wasn't achieved? [03:58] you'd still be in stopping [03:58] lifeless: it's similar to the design of any sensible service management api [04:01] by gating the states, we don't need messy interim states [04:02] cron has @reboot [04:02] I like that syntax [04:02] at reboot [04:02] though upstart uses reboot to mean "after jobs have been stopped, and you want to reboot the machine" :p [04:02] ie. run rc6 currently [04:03] so @reboot is actually at boot [04:03] right [04:04] @start /usr/bin/asdf [04:04] @stop kill `pidof asdf` [04:05] that's what current init does [04:05] and not what upstart does [04:05] @bedtime irssi /away night night [04:06] Keybuk: I'll think on it over night. Something about the non-heriarchy, multiline config-file without qualifiers is getting my brain [04:07] Keybuk: you don't need endscript, there is the \ syntax at the end of the line [04:07] Keybuk: or the << both of which cope with escaping === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === grexk [n=grexk@124.107.72.42] has joined #ubuntu-devel === johanbr [n=j@jupiter.physics.ubc.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rouzic [n=rouzic@32.Red-83-56-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Micksa [i=nobody@203.26.40.81] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru_ [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rouzic [n=rouzic@32.Red-83-56-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === johanbr [n=j@d154-20-189-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rouzic se ha ido === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jvw [i=jeroen@220pc220.sshunet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mattn [n=mattn@p5483F022.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nags [n=nags@125.16.129.16] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Spads [n=crack@host-84-9-51-91.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === grexk [n=grexk@124.107.72.42] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === wasabi [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@c58-107-57-8.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@82.197-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === MagnusR [n=magru@c83-250-59-127.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel === chris38-home3 [n=Christia@mut38-4-82-233-119-151.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.102.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Arbiter [n=arbiter@unaffiliated/arbiter] has joined #ubuntu-devel === grexk [n=grexk@124.107.72.42] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:41] sladen: macosx open> isn't that see(1)? [08:42] sladen: I need UWN 11 on the fridge, stat ;) [08:42] Kamion: pretty much, but using all of osx's happy mime foo (gnome-open would be a more appropriate analogue) [08:45] oh, I always forget that the desktops reinvented the existing mime handling [08:45] I tend to ignore them :) === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:47] Anyone want to check this out http://pastebin.com/778609 [08:48] Kamion: i hammered pretty hard to have mailcap compat (or direct use) in gnome - didn't happen. [08:48] grexk: it's polite to tell people what it is rather than expecting them to follow the URL to find out === dholbach [n=daniel@p54A653EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:48] sorry [08:50] good morning === Kagou [n=Kagou@84.5.164.67] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:51] hi [08:52] I can't perfectly compile xen-source-2.6.16 lately, checking launchpad seems it works well with i386? === carlos [n=carlos@214.Red-88-0-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:54] or should I just use deb binary from edgy to dapper. [09:02] grexk: edgy uses a newer libc, it's not a good idea to replace that lib. :) [09:02] grexk: what you can do is get the source, build-deps and build it yourself on dapper. [09:04] Been doing that but I can't compile it perfectly with make-kpkg:( [09:05] I'm no expert, but I've managed both rhythmbox and gossip with dpkg-buildpackage [09:05] no success either:( [09:06] grexk: perhaps you can find help in #ubuntu-kernel? [09:06] thanks === freeflying|away [n=freeflyi@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Harti [n=Harti@unaffiliated/harti] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mvo [n=egon@p54A65EAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lucas [n=lucas@ubuntu/member/lucas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:31] morning all [09:32] hey sivang [09:32] morning [09:32] hey Hobbsee , how are things? [09:33] sivang: okay. i keep sleeping thru uni classes, which is kinda bad though. [09:33] hello everyone [09:34] Hobbsee: don't. Uni is important , trust me [09:34] sivang: yes, exactly. === Hobbsee notes that being sick is bad - you miss an incredible amount of work [09:35] Hobbsee: yes, I recall that from my pre-uni studies. It's like missing a day is roughly as loosing the introduction and the fin abut how for instnace, electromagnetism works... === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:37] sivang: yeah, true === Tonio__ [n=tonio@vbo91-1-82-238-217-179.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:40] Hobbsee: and trust me, when you can't present too many credentials for something you want to do, at least having completed a university degree can be considered as one big and demanding project you've done successfuly ;-) [09:41] sivang: true that. i dont usually have this problem - just the last couple of weeks. === TheMuso only fell asleep in lectures when we were in rooms that had no natural light, or fresh air. [09:46] TheMuso: known :-) === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:54] keybuk, Kamion: could one of you please liberate libtelepathy from binary new (soname change)? [09:55] <\sh> moins [09:58] alegrate, /me ha vuelto === grexk [n=grexk@124.107.72.42] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === bmon [n=monnahan@107.Red-83-49-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks [n=ivoks@ubuntu/member/ivoks] has joined #ubuntu-devel === twilight [n=twilight@ubuntu/member/twilight] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pvanhoof [n=pvanhoof@mailhost.newtec.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === joumetal [n=mettala@letku30.adsl.netsonic.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:23] doko: is your mail against closing old "Needs Info" bugs too? [10:26] seb128: maybe, but I agree with Dennis' reply [10:27] doko: ok, because usually people close old Needs Info without a reply for some timez [10:27] doko: in kde-based bugs, often that doesnt make sense - because kde upstream fixes a lot more with each version than they tend to put in their changelogs [10:27] they put the major bugfixes in, but they dont put in every little single change, usually [10:27] although people should try to reproduce before closing === Hobbsee suspects she's stopped making sense. marketing lecture on behind me. [10:28] marketing what, bugs? ;-P [10:28] Hobbsee: so you close random bugs because they might be fixed by a new version? [10:28] seb128: no, of course not [10:28] Hobbsee: usually the way it works it that you verify that the bug is fixed before closing [10:29] doko: i'm not sure, i'm trying to ignore it :P [10:29] seb128: true that [10:29] Hobbsee: and KDE people doing a poor job documenting what they do doesn't change that :p [10:29] sorry - the thought was there, the execution was shocking. [10:29] seb128: hehe, true that === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gloubiboulga [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Remenic [n=remenic@konversation/user/Remenic] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-204-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [10:50] sivang, poke? [10:55] linux-libertine package (font) is in Debian testing. It seems to work with dapper without any changes. Could it be added to edgy? [10:55] Hobbsee: KDE changelogs are very detailed, and include full SVN logs for maximum details [10:55] Riddell: hmmm okay. i was thinking of a lot of the universe packages, etc === Hobbsee goes back to her corner === Hobbsee wonders who stole her brain [10:56] pygi: hi === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:00] Hobbsee: we all want a part of you. ;) [11:00] .... [11:00] dholbach: done [11:00] Kamion: thanks muchly. [11:02] HiddenWolf: did someone steal your brain too? [11:02] Hobbsee: I never had any. :) [11:02] ah === dborg [n=daniel@e182055145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === paracetamolo [n=paraceta@81-174-12-172.f5.ngi.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === paracetamolo [n=paraceta@81-174-12-172.f5.ngi.it] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [11:13] ogra: how's it going wrt getting your CDs down to a reasonable size? === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.228.120] has joined #ubuntu-devel === joumetal [n=mettala@letku30.adsl.netsonic.fi] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Lhdss"] === Huahua_ [n=hua_@122.0.229.169] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:57] Mithrandir, just merging seeds ... lets see === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@di-pc84.ulb.ac.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === geser [n=michael@85.25.107.194] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jinty [n=jinty@19.Red-83-50-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:05] hi, is install-info a known issue? [12:05] mjg59, ping === Arbiter [n=arbiter@unaffiliated/arbiter] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra hugs dholbach [12:15] one g-p-m patch less :D [12:15] yeah :) [12:18] guys what's wrong with install-info? [12:18] anybody has an idea why google has vanished from our firefox's search bar? [12:18] (and for some reason can not be add [12:18] ed) === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:25] ogra: Hi [12:26] mjg59, i have a weird behavior of usplash on thin clients [12:26] the keyboard in the login manager doesnt work unless i switch to tty1 and back [12:26] well, it kinda works after a loong delay and only prints '''' chars [12:27] if i switch off usplash for the boot all is fine ... [12:28] mjg59: I have the same problems with Debian that you do, if that's news. === paracetamolo [n=paraceta@81-174-12-172.f5.ngi.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.228.231] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:29] ogra: Erm. [12:30] I can't think of any reason why it should behave differently for thin clients [12:30] it changed with my recent update ... (i havent updated for 3 weeks before) [12:30] because we dont use GDM = [12:30] ? [12:30] Well, there's been a lot of code changes [12:30] What do you use? [12:30] and i kill it in the wrong place in ldm or miss something that needs to be added ? :)= [12:31] You shouldn't kill it [12:31] The VT switch will let it clean up [12:32] so [12:32] if pidof usplash > /dev/null; then [12:32] /etc/init.d/usplash stop [12:32] fi [12:32] is not appropriate anymore ? [12:32] (got that at the top of the initscrit, before i start the X session) === ogra tries that [12:33] Uhm [12:33] i had to add it because usplash dropped my to tty1 else [12:33] /etc/init.d/usplash stop will not do what you think it does [12:34] Look at how gdm does it [12:34] i think thats what it did for dapper [12:34] i didnt look in edgy yet [12:34] ogra: You probably want "start", not "stop", which is what gdm uses. Yes, confusion, I know. [12:34] hehe [12:35] usplash's init script is the silliest thing I've ever accidentally contributed to. [12:35] But I blame mvo, just 'cause I can. [12:35] how about rewriting it at some point to be sane :) [12:35] Yeah, yeah. :) [12:36] Or obsoleting it entirely somehow. [12:36] upstart might help here :) [12:36] can't you blame scott? i'm sure it must be his fault [12:37] thom: Scott didn't really touch usplash until edgy, so the brain-damage in breezy and dapper is something I get to share responsibility for with mjg59 and mvo, mostly. [12:37] thom: I'll happily blame him from here on in, though! === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lmanul [n=manu@dan75-4-82-239-58-38.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mvo refuses any blame and reads to scrollback now to find out what it was actually about [12:44] mvo calling "start" to stop usplash :) [12:44] guys does anyone know what's install-info mess is all about? === Hobbsee blames ogra [12:44] ogra: that is called "newspeak" ;) [12:45] lol === ogra looks with a totally innocent look at Hobbsee === Hobbsee laughs at ogra's innocent look [12:45] :) [12:45] ogra: it doesnt work :P === rouzic [n=rouzic@32.Red-83-56-54.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:46] Hobbsee, well, was worth a try :) [12:46] heh [12:46] mjg59, thanks, the keyboard works as expected now :) === jono [n=jono@mail.openadvantage.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:48] he [12:48] eh? [12:48] hey jono === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gloubiboulga_ [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gloubiboulga_ is now known as Gloubiboulga === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@di-pc69.ulb.ac.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Xoff is now known as Xof === Gloubiboulga [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel === imbrandon [n=brandon@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.imbrandon] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === cr3 [n=marc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/cr3] has joined #ubuntu-devel === shackan_ [n=shackan@host196-143.pool871.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Harti [n=Harti@unaffiliated/harti] has joined #ubuntu-devel === basanta [n=basanta@202.79.37.177] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === z\ [n=pjphem@unaffiliated/madsheep] has joined #ubuntu-devel === paracetamolo [n=paraceta@81-174-12-172.f5.ngi.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.251.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === _human_blip_ [n=mike@220.157.65.29] has joined #ubuntu-devel === iceman [n=iceman@95.253-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === iceman [n=iceman@95.253-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Bye!"] === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rouzic se ha ido === apokryphos- [n=apokryph@host-87-74-67-127.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:26] Kamion, hi, is it possible to run a new xubuntu isos build? [02:30] Gloubiboulga: just new ISOs or new livefs too? [02:31] Mithrandir, new livefs is needed too I think [02:31] netboot-installer has old components, so d-i should be rebuilt [02:32] Gloubiboulga: xubuntu livefs running now [02:32] Mithrandir, thanks [02:35] tepsipakki: yes, I'm going to do that after all my no-more-devfs stuff is through [02:35] kamion: ok, thanks [02:35] plus the kbd-chooser change I'm working on now [02:35] I didn't get a chance to do it at the sprint last week [02:36] devfs is going to go? does that affect the disk-device-id that the d-i uses? [02:36] tepsipakki: we haven't used devfs as such for ages. [02:36] devfs disappeared long ago - the change is to get rid of devfs *paths* [02:36] so yes, d-i will start using /dev/hda1 instead of /dev/discs/disc0/part1, etc. [02:37] it already sort of does, but only patchily [02:37] right, good to know === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.228.231] has joined #ubuntu-devel === patwack [n=paddy@cpc3-blfs4-0-0-cust387.belf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === apokryphos- [n=apokryph@host-84-9-33-159.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Norgz [n=eroux@maisel-gw.enst-bretagne.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F7A93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Norgz [n=eroux@maisel-gw.enst-bretagne.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === poningru_ [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Arbiter` [n=arbiter@adsl-ull-55-188.41-151.net24.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:05] ogra: well, getting anywhere? [03:05] Mithrandir, yes, to lunch ... i'll trigger a new iso afterwards ... :) === janimo [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:06] Gloubiboulga: hi [03:06] ogra: so you've managed to shrink it a bit, then? [03:06] hi janimo [03:06] Gloubiboulga: I added pyxfce to desktop seed as well, it will need a MIR [03:06] janimo, I'm not sure that it's a good idea [03:06] Gloubiboulga: made progress on xkb? [03:07] Gloubiboulga: why? [03:07] pyxfce seems unmaintained [03:07] I haven't seen an svn since months [03:07] Gloubiboulga: there's at least one plugin upstream which uses it upstream no? [03:07] janimo, yes [03:08] Gloubiboulga: ISOs building [03:08] Mithrandir, thanks again :) [03:10] Gloubiboulga: .. and built. [03:11] lets see who much Mo we'll have to remove this time... === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:15] Mithrandir, lets see, i found out that tomboy was still in the seeds and the foomatic stuff should gain a bit as well [03:16] heh, and I remember ogra quite happy just a few weeks ago, because we had gained ~20mb from python deps :) === rouzic_ausente ha vuelto [03:16] rodarvus, :P [03:17] we'll get it in shape ... we'll just drop X, gnome and openoffice :P [03:18] nobody uses OOo anyway. LaTeX ftw. ;-P [03:18] also, I'm using "ftw" far too much those days. [03:19] yay LaTeX! [03:19] I prefer genuine rubber.. [03:19] I think two things will likely have to happen in the medium-to-near future: split language packs per country [03:19] and drop OOo helps from the cd :) [03:20] . o O ( who needs help files anyway ) :D === Hobbsee wonders if they're actually being installed now [03:21] right, its even a lot more education you gain through LaTeX ! [03:21] openoffice.org-help-en-us is on the livecd [03:22] ~11mb compressed, 22mb decompressed [03:22] rodarvus: everyone needs help with the beast that is Oo. :) === mvo_ [n=egon@p54A65CA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === irvin [n=ipp@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:22] heh :) [03:22] it would help if the OOo help was actually useful [03:22] Mithrandir, did you run the build for alternate isos too? === tortoise_ [n=tortoise@194.164.140.64] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:22] (but anyhow) [03:23] rodarvus, its totally useful (on 3GHz machines with 4Gig of ram at least) [03:23] mvo hi, re the gtkhtml2 use in g-a-i. It looks like it is used to render 3rd party commercial EULAS only? [03:24] Gloubiboulga: nope, you want those? [03:24] yes, this is another problem. given it uses gcj runtime to run, OOo help is dog slow, and uses an incredibly high amount of RAM [03:24] Mithrandir, yes please :) [03:24] Gloubiboulga: running [03:24] thanks === wasabi [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mattn [n=mattn@p5483F022.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [03:26] edgy-install-i386.iso 29-Aug-2006 14:18 722M [03:26] :(((((( [03:26] where do i get 22 meg ... [03:26] ouch. [03:26] hrm .. [03:26] and its only i386 [03:27] !! [03:27] the others are both at 716 only [03:27] i wonder where the 6 meg come from [03:27] I expected i386 to be smaller than amd64 at least [03:27] well, the seeds are tweaked already to compensate that [03:28] (amd64 and ppc dont ahve all apps i386 has) [03:28] ogra: oo-help :-) [03:28] ogra, doko made a very good suggestion, btw [03:29] (on ubuntu-devel@) [03:29] funny ... http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/20060829.1/report.html doesnt show and amd64 uninstallables [03:29] hmm [03:29] why not drop vim completely in edubuntu ... [03:29] i wonder who would complain [03:30] vim-tiny is tiny [03:30] (apart from myself) [03:30] but if you have at least nano, I think thats ok === ogra cries ... debian constantly merged from the wrong ltsp tree ... [03:31] FWIW, most other linux distributions install vim-tiny (or elvis) on their default installs === sbalneav [n=sbalneav@mail.legalaid.mb.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:32] ok, seed changed [03:32] other suggestions ? === ivoks [n=ivoks@ubuntu/member/ivoks] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:34] ogra: er ... where did you make that change? [03:34] ogra: what is ttf-dustin and xaos for? [03:34] dholbach, xaos is a fractal generator [03:34] the dustin font is required by kalzium iirc [03:35] Kamion, minimal in the edubuntu seed [03:35] ogra: I'm sorry, but you can't do that [03:35] ogra: it will have no effect [03:35] oops [03:35] please revert that [03:35] ok [03:35] doing so [03:35] the minimal and standard seeds in derivatives basically don't do anything [03:35] so, I was also thinking of moving from vim to vim-tiny in Ubuntu minimal [03:36] that'd be great [03:36] in some ways it would be better, because vim-tiny is configured to act like vi if you run it as vi, and like vim if you run it as vim [03:36] (the compatible flag) [03:36] I was thinking that it wouldn't help much because you'd also want vim on the CD - vim-tiny is missing too many features [03:36] <_ion> Moving to vim-tiny is okay, but only having nano and no vi derivative would suck. [03:37] Kamion: hi :) did you already have time to look at my two dbus mails? [03:37] but maybe you'd want to leave vim off the Edubuntu CD? [03:37] _ion: no intention of dropping vi [03:37] I'd hurt people if that happened [03:37] slomo: oh, not yet, will do shortly [03:37] Gloubiboulga: and done [03:37] Kamion, well, -minimal pulls it in currently ... there is no other occurence of vim in the edubuntu seeds [03:38] or do you mean completely ? [03:38] Kamion: thanks :) btw, when will the main freeze for knot2 start? [03:38] ogra: indeed, but I'd probably add it to Ubuntu ship - or maybe even desktop [03:38] ah [03:38] right [03:38] no, i wouldnt merge that [03:38] vim-tiny is missing e.g. syntax highlighting [03:38] i think edubuntu could even go without vi [03:38] do we need vim on desktop CD? I mean vim users are probably able to install it ... [03:39] seb128: yeah, not sure about that, I think it should be on the CD though [03:39] thanks Mithrandir [03:39] i would want vim on a desktop cd alot users use vim [03:39] and a lot of vim users, while competent, won't necessarily be familiar with Debian/Ubuntu - they'll just start vi and notice that it sucks [03:40] Kamion: could you build a kubuntu livefs [03:40] don't ship any vi at all then? [03:40] ogra: I'm not going to drop vi altogether from minimal [03:40] seb128: no [03:40] nano is enough [03:40] ok [03:40] no it's not [03:40] seb128++ [03:40] just my opinion, but I don't use vi [03:40] i use vi daily [03:40] it would be alright to have a big warning/notice on the first invocation of vi as vi that this is vim in compat mode [03:40] Kamion: whatever works, as long as 'vi' doesn't start nano... as I've seen on some BSD systems here.. *shudder* [03:40] maybe [03:40] we drop vi over my dead body :) [03:40] but i dont have a prob to install it [03:40] it belongs in a base Unix system [03:40] Kamion: we are lucky that you are not an emacs user then :p [03:41] <_ion> treenaks: Augh! [03:41] haha [03:41] seb128: yes, we are :) [03:41] Kamion++, seb128---- [03:41] _ion: my words exactly [03:41] Riddell: sure, building [03:41] anyway, vim-tiny is half a megabyte [03:41] I think it's well worth it just for not pissing off server admins [03:42] vim I acknowledge as more debatable [03:42] the big chunk of space is vim-runtime - unfortunately that's also the bit that's really nice to have [03:43] put vim-tiny into -minimal, and vim into -server? [03:43] didn't this get resolved in Debian? [03:43] LarstiQ: it is not possible for Ubuntu task choices to get resolved in Debian, so no [03:43] Kamion: right, task choices. [03:43] and try to get desktop users to notice they should install vim for the real deal === bddebian [n=bdefrees@mail.ottens.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:44] Kamion: but the discussion was much the same [03:44] yes, that's why vim-tiny was created [03:44] but that doesn't necessarily help with the question of whether providing vim on the CD is a good idea [03:44] Kamion: The full vim does seem excessive for -minimal [03:45] Good morning [03:45] hmm, I wonder whether /usr/share/vim/vim70/lang can be stripped and put into langpacks [03:45] Kamion: good luck with that :) === Nafallo runs vim-tiny on his server. should be enough for -minimal indeed. === poningru__ [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:48] seb128, what will break if i drop gnome2-user-guide from edubuntu ? are there any hardcoded referecnes to it anywhere ? [03:49] ogra: the help from a bunch of gnome apps [03:49] hrm ... [03:49] ogra: I think some capplets, etc point to documens from the user-guide [03:49] ogra: so you will get a yelp complaining about some reference not found [03:49] ok, so i have to keep that [03:49] drop blender and xaos [03:50] why do we have blender to main? [03:50] dholbach, i cant drop xaos (and its only 500k or so) [03:50] For Margaritas? [03:50] seb128, its in edubutu-desktop [03:50] ogra: ah, k [03:51] ogra: I was wondering yesterday because some user asked me if we had planned to update to the current Debian version for edgy [03:51] would be something we could drop (it would be sane for the pacage to be in universe) [03:51] seb128, lfittl i guess ;) [03:51] ogra: no, kagou [03:51] heh, ok [03:51] thats why i had a pm open this morning from him :) [03:51] hehe [03:52] maybe we should look at tackle that cdbs bug pointed by doko [03:52] upgrading to 2.42 would be nice, if possible [03:52] well, blender has a big prob now it totally depends on ffmpeg, i considered dropping it already, but that wil get me many user complaints [03:52] the one which make every binary from a same source package ship the ChangeLog, etc [03:52] that could spare some megas === Hagbarddenstore [n=hagbardd@81-235-254-217-no24.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:53] which reminds me at ajmitch's missing cdbs upload ... === paracetamolo [n=paraceta@81-174-12-172.f5.ngi.it] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [03:54] doko, that was the fix for the new python policy stuff, right ? if so, we have that anyway, i fixed it weeks ago [03:54] looks like vim currently requires /usr/share/vim/vim70/lang to stay where it is [03:55] ogra: no, new sync is required, and according to pitti, ajmitch has one prepared, but not submitted [03:56] ah, k [03:57] seb128: I have asked before, but any new opinions on splitting at least some libs out of gnome-python{-extras} to separate binary packages? === carlos [n=carlos@214.Red-88-0-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:57] ok, i'll let blender go bac to universe [03:57] *back [03:57] janimo: I don't want to [03:57] g-a-i only needs gtkhtml2 but installs a lot besides that because of the bindsings [03:57] janimo: or get them splitted from Debian [03:58] seb128: but are you not mainatining them in debian anymore? === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:58] janimo: they are team maintained and I'm pretty busy atm so other people are likely to give you a better reply [03:59] seb128: in #debian-devel or is there a more appropriate channel? [03:59] #gnome-debian on irc.gimp.net [03:59] and which of thos euploadrs is more likely to be involved with this package? [03:59] janimo: bug report or #gnome-debian on GIMPNet [03:59] dholbach: ok thanks [03:59] seb128: thanks === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:02] janimo: you probably want to mention you speak about python [04:02] seb128: good idea ;) === jcole [n=jcole@palrel2.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks is now known as ivoks_away === shenki [n=shenki@ppp131-204.lns3.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks_away is now known as ivoks === Mithrandir starts building new ubuntu livefs-es === CarlFK [n=carl@c-67-163-39-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === herzi_x41 [n=herzi@pD9E29F87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir [04:11] mjg59: can you take a quick look at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/spiftacity/+bug/57843 [04:11] Malone bug 57843 in spiftacity "rebuild or merge with metacity" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] [04:11] thanks [04:12] hiya Hobbsee === truz_`24 [n=truz_`24@74.129.166.232] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:12] hey Mithrandir, how are you doing? :) [04:13] herzi_x41: I had a look at that yesterday, but activating composite with metacity make it unusable (sort of blue,purple background with a sort of reduced ressource mode, I had to reboot to rescue mode and downgrade to the edgy version to be able to use my desktop again) [04:13] woo! i got my name in another debian changelog :) === kbyrd [n=Miranda@mailout1.vmware.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:14] Hobbsee: forwarding .desktops now? :) [04:14] seb128: i did for one package, i think. [04:14] herzi_x41: and I'm reluctant making metacity linking to a lib with no ABI stability [04:14] seb128: no, i kept harrassing allee to fix his package in debian so i could sync it. === Hobbsee is good at that :) === pradeep [n=pradeep@59.92.70.228] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:14] *cough*desktops*cough* [04:14] Hobbsee: I've read your name to a package that included the .desktop you forwarded I think [04:15] seb128: yeah, quite likely. [04:15] bddebian: no, it was + Thx Hobbsee for reminding me (again and again :). [04:15] about kdelibs-bin dependancy that needed to be axed. [04:15] Hobbsee: [04:15] " epiphany (0.5.1-4) unstable; urgency=low [04:15] . [04:15] * Add desktop file used by Ubuntu from the original patch sent [04:15] by Sarah Hobbs " [04:16] seb128: ah yes, i got an email from him today [04:16] > +++ 0.5.1-3ubuntu1/debian/dirs 2006-07-10 11:18:27.000000000 [04:16] This file (dirs) doesn't exist in debian 0.5.1-3 version, arch [04:16] independent data has been splitted in a separate package, so same [04:16] happened to dirs file. You may want to update the ubuntu version to [04:16] reflect it. [04:16] wohoo, Hobbsee on her way to become DD [04:17] ogra: hah. no way [04:17] well, you partially entered the gnome team in debian with that change :P [04:17] ogra: presumably i should go for core (again) before that? [04:17] ogra: argh. i dont even use gnome. [04:17] hehe, i know :) [04:18] we'll get you there ;) [04:18] hah [04:18] dream on [04:18] *g* [04:18] Hobbsee: Why not? Might be your "fast path" to core-dev.. ;-P [04:18] bddebian: my fast path? heh === Hobbsee is not going to reapply for core in a while. if ever. [04:18] Hobbsee: much better today than yesterday, but waiting for stuff to build is annoying. [04:18] Mithrandir: true that === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-232-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:20] Heya pygi [04:20] heya bddebian [04:24] any xgl package maintainers or developers in this room? [04:27] jcole: don't ask to ask, just ask [04:27] jcole: I'm not technically maintaining it but I might be able to reply to a question [04:27] same for other people too [04:27] i've got a custom kernel and rebuild the dri module package from beerorkid ... i've installed them and it doesn't seem to work right [04:27] apt-get build-dep linux-dri-modules-common; apt-get source linux-dri-modules-common; cd linux-dri-modules-2.6.15-26-20060726; dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot [04:28] that builds all the linux-dri-modules-2.6.15-26-* packages and such [04:29] is there something i'm missing? i dist-upgraded beforehand [04:29] what "doesn't work right"? [04:30] siretart, poke? :) [04:30] Mithrandir: do you know if there's a way to disable just the apt upgrade part of update-notifier, but not stuff like apport? [04:30] Mithrandir: 'cos I'd like to have update-notifier running on the live CD so that apport works === jcole_nodri [n=jcole@palrel1.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:31] have a nice evening [04:31] Later dholbach [04:32] seb128: can't get dri... it works with stock ubuntu kernel and binary modules from beerorkid [04:32] (EE) I810(0): [drm] drmAddMap(front_handle) failed. Disabling DRI === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-232-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [04:32] jcole_nodri: I don't know, but doesn't looks like an Ubuntu bug if it works with the ubuntu kernel [04:33] seb128: is that the only package i need to rebuild? do i need to rebuild the xorg/mesa drivers and such too? === FunnyLookinHat [n=funnyloo@64.140.73.93] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:34] jcole_nodri: no idea, I'm not really a kernel nor xorg guy, maybe rodarvus knows about that [04:36] jcole_nodri, where do you got your kernel source from? [04:36] this is my /var/log/Xorg.0.log --> http://pastebin.ca/153243 [04:36] our kernel packages have updated agpgart & drm, needed for proper DRI [04:38] rodarvus: from the ubuntu mirrors [04:39] "I've got a custom kernel and rebuild the dri module package from beerorkid" [04:39] rodarvus: apt-get source linux-source-2.6.15 [04:39] what is beerorkid? === Zdra [n=zdra@63.180-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:40] (and why did you need to download/built dri stuff from this external repository) [04:40] rodarvus: the dri source actually comes from http://ubuntu.compiz.net/ [04:40] oh, right [04:41] I suppose they already have working DRI for dapper, isn't this true? (though, as I don't use their repos, I can't confirm this) [04:41] rodarvus: the dri in dapper is almost 3 years old for my intel card [04:42] rodarvus: many glx extensions have been added in the last few years (including the ones xgl/compiz needs) [04:43] indeed, intel dri on dapper is seriously lacking [04:43] (but unfortunately, its nothing we can officially deal with right now, since dapper is released, and this is not something that could go into dapper-updates too) === sladen grins at rodarvus [04:44] hehe === dborg_ [n=daniel@e182049150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:44] heh [04:44] people, you are evil. [04:44] :) === Hobbsee hugs rodarvus [04:44] us, evil? === Kagou [n=Kagou@84.5.164.34] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:45] rodarvus: is X version frozen for edgy? === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:45] as is no 7.2 for sure [04:45] janimo, since a few weeks, yes [04:45] no 7.2 for Edgy :) [04:45] janimo: 7.2 gets out after edgy, doesn't it? [04:46] 7.2 will be released in two months, (maybe more) [04:46] so, about 20 days before edgy is released [04:46] surely not in time for inclusion into edgy [04:46] ok I though they planned sep but anyway [04:46] janimo, ~ october 15-20, afaik [04:46] surely in time for Edgy+1 [04:47] rodarvus: do X packages come via debian now or is x-swat handling them? [04:47] there's plenty of cool stuff which can be done for X.Org on Edgy+1 [04:47] rodarvus: like dri [04:47] rodarvus: re the amd OLPC driver are you planning to package it or waiting on debian? [04:47] janimo, I wish they could mostly be handled by debian, but unfortunately we (x-swat) had to mostly drive them for edgy [04:47] janimo, I'll package it [04:48] ok [04:48] later this week [04:48] sorry for not answering your email on the subject, btw :) [04:48] np [04:48] jcole_nodri, we package dri [04:49] theres plenty of coolness coming for X.Org on edgy and edgy+1 (more if we find the right person to hire) === glatzor [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-7-215.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:50] rodarvus: you're not volunteering? :P === cymcy [n=cymcy@d83-179-6-91.cust.tele2.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:50] rodarvus: who packages the linux-dri-modules-* packages? [04:50] X.Org is not the reason I was hired. The only reason I'm doing it is because we don't have another hacker working full time on it [04:51] whoa "who packages the packages" [04:51] jcole_nodri, there is no linux-dri-modules-* package on (official) dapper [04:51] Kamion: Nice CD health check mails. [04:51] rodarvus: i realise that :) i was joking [04:51] hi infinity [04:51] Kamion: Also, FWIW, I've already pinged doko about fixing python-tk brokenness. [04:51] these modules are inside the regular kernel package, and are done by the ubuntu-kernel team [04:51] infinity: good good. I hadn't got there yet ... [04:51] rodarvus: so, are there any takers for it? You blogged about the employment ad. ;) [04:51] rodarvus: does edgy have newer dri than dapper? === wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:52] infinity: I'll add stuff like livefs build status to those mails later; I just got bored before doing so [04:52] infinity: does the reformatting I did of britney output suit you? [04:52] HiddenWolf, I'm not interviewing people for this position, so, I have no idea, really [04:52] Kamion: It doesn't make me want to poke my eyes out or anything. [04:52] I compacted multiple architectures down onto a single line, per mdz's suggestion [04:53] Kamion: Yeah, works well enough for me. === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:56] rodarvus: if so, i'll yank and rebuild the edgy kernel sources instead === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:58] Kamion: nice mail indeed, could you add Gloubiboulga to the Cc as well for xubuntu? === Harti [n=Harti@unaffiliated/harti] has joined #ubuntu-devel === kent [n=kent@82.145.136.38] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:02] janimo: sure, done - I was going to ask you about it beforehand but never seemed to catch you on IRC [05:03] Kamion: yes, I was mostly offline these past weeks [05:03] thanks [05:03] janimo: you ok with those being sent daily? [05:03] as I said to infinity, I'll flesh them out a bit later [05:03] Kamion: re a11y boot entry, one will be needed for the xubuntu desktop CD as well, I assume you are doing them for the ubuntu CD? [05:03] Kamion: daily is fine [05:04] janimo: easy to do - is the code in casper yet? [05:04] Kamion: no idea about what code should that be sorry. It's ok to have that once the Ubuntu CD is accesbile just wanted to make sure it;'s you I'll come to [05:05] I think it's not yet in casper as I gathered from what henrik blogged today [05:05] oh, you just use gtk so I guess it's not hard [05:05] do you have gconftool? [05:05] Kamion: yes [05:05] if so, it should just be a matter of adding the necessary applications [05:05] and added two metapackes to ship which dep on orca & co [05:06] janimo: hmm - you should have the a11y entry already [05:06] janimo: it's not really a boot menu entry, it's a full menu down at the bottom right of the gfxboot screen [05:06] Kamion: I admit I have not tried an edgy live as they were oversized until recently [05:07] janimo: and it's added unconditionally for all derivatives - has been since dapper [05:07] which was actually a bug for kubuntu, but never mind since they're making it work now [05:07] ah, I though it was supposed to be a main entry. ok then [05:08] so then i tmeans it has to have some extra packages associated or a way to tell it to start and then install some gnome apps besides the xubuntu ones [05:09] it doesn't cause anything extra to be installed, only stuff to be enabled [05:09] it is different from ubuntu as it does not install orca and gnome-mag by default [05:09] see scripts/casper-bottom/*accessibility in casper [05:09] that's the code that actually implements those menu items [05:09] if you need certain menu items disabled for xubuntu, let me know [05:09] the a11y apps are not in the default xubuntu-desktoip so soemthing extra may be needed for the xubnunt CD then? [05:09] yeah, if you want [05:10] if they're not usable for xubuntu, we can disable those a11y options for you [05:10] Kamion: I think they should be usable but are not put in the default desktop since they are relatively large gnome deps [05:11] nod [05:11] so rigth now that option in ubuntu causes casper to call gconftool and tweak the desktop on start [05:11] right [05:11] whereas in xubuntu it woulkd need that + install a few extra packages besides xubuntu-desktop for that to make sense [05:12] packages starting xubuntu-at which are in the ship seed now === ogra twiddles thumbs waiting for edubuntu-meta ... === Hobbsee drops icecubes down ogra's back, to keep him from getting bored. === Arbiter [n=arbiter@unaffiliated/arbiter] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:15] hey Arbiter [05:16] heya Hobbsee === phanatic [n=phanatic@ubuntu/member/phanatic] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:16] AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH [05:17] hehe [05:17] Hobbsee, THATS COLD !! [05:17] o.O? [05:17] ogra: yes, and? [05:17] Arbiter: [01:14] * Hobbsee drops icecubes down ogra's back, to keep him from getting bored. [05:17] not again ! [05:17] === jcole_nodri [n=jcole_no@palrel1.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:17] ogra: what's the problem? you're in the northern hemisphere, anyway. [05:18] its cold, windy and raining here today [05:18] 14C === Loevborg [n=loevborg@dslb-084-056-036-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:18] ogra: hah. [05:18] not the weather for icecubes running down your back ... :) [05:18] ogra: sure sure... === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:19] i'm happy one of the cats warms my feet atm === Hobbsee demands that firefox NOT CRASH! [05:20] Hobbsee: good luck with that one === jcole_nodri [n=jcole_no@palrel2.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:21] hehe [05:21] janimo: mm, that's not really feasible though [05:21] janimo: especially not on the live CD, where this would have to be happening at boot [05:22] janimo: on the install CD I guess it would be theoretically doable but we have no infrastructure for it at present [05:24] Kamion, so on the liveCD we should install all the accessibility stuff if we want it from start [05:24] is there a way of not installing it on the disk if it was not enabled then? [05:24] so the gnome deps only show up in the live session [05:25] seb128: for the icon problem in notification bubble, I found this patch from gentoo: ftp://ftp.belnet.be/linux/gentoo-portage/x11-misc/notification-daemon/files/notification-daemon-0.3.5-icon-data.patch [05:26] Zdra: which problem? :) [05:26] images doesn't appear in notify bubbles [05:27] that's a strange bug, with dbus 0.60 from dapper it works [05:27] Zdra: ok, i noticed this lately too... it's still the case with dbus 0.92 on edgy [05:27] and with this gentoo patch it seems to work too, at least that's what an user told me [05:28] Zdra: could you file a bug on notification-daemon with this patch and assign it to me? i'll take a look later [05:28] slomo: ok thanks === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === makkes [n=mwerner@pD9E84385.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:29] :q [05:30] janimo: that could be arranged with the aid of live-cd-stacked-filesystems, I think [05:30] janimo: probably best to include only the ones that don't need gnome for now === Mithrandir [n=tfheen@c5100BC63.inet.catch.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:32] slomo: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/notification-daemon/+bug/58114 [05:32] Malone bug 58114 in notification-daemon "image doesn't appear in bubbles" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] [05:35] Zdra: the patch is from upstream svn... and explicitely says that it makes icons work again on dbus >= 0.61... nice catch :) [05:36] Kamion: all a11y stuff needs gnome so we'll have to wait for the stacked fs stuff if that solves it [05:37] or we could just add it now to test a11y and hope we'll fid a way to remove it from the install later in the cycle [05:37] that may be even better to get them tested in xfce [05:38] I did not do that so far since I somehow thought that addtional packages can be installed based on boot selection [05:38] it worked for the alternate CD and forgot they are quite different [05:39] is anyone else experiencing firefox not handling https urls? [05:39] the wiki and LP among them [05:40] hmm, these CDs really have got larger [05:41] yep [05:41] all of them .... [05:41] *bigsigh* [05:41] Hmm. My xkb has been acting up for the last week or so. Any body aware of changes which could have effected it? gnome-settings-d is unable to set it up. setxkbmap says it can't interpret _XKB_RULES_NAMES. Latest packages haven't fixed it. [05:42] Also, if anybody can explain to me htf XKB operates I'd be in debt, so I could find the problem myself. ;) [05:42] janimo: did it really work for the alternate CD? I don't recall ever adding code to d-i that installed packages based on access= [05:42] wasabi_: what does setxkbmap -print output? (pastebin or query, please) [05:42] or in fact that did pretty much anything at all based on access= [05:42] Kamion: maybe not via d-i ut I thought the LTSP extra packages were added in that way [05:42] ltsp has a special udeb that does the work [05:43] it would be possible to do so for access too, although nobody has yet === rleigh [n=rleigh@debian/developer/rleigh] has joined #ubuntu-devel === patwack [n=paddy@cpc3-blfs4-0-0-cust387.belf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === TMM [n=hp@c51471f2c.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:57] Zdra: yep, fixes it for me... do you want to test it too? [05:57] Zdra: (i took the patch from upstream svn instead of the gentoo one) [05:58] slomo: I'm a bit busy atm I'll try to test it later today if possible and if you didn't commit before ;-) [05:59] but if it works for you, for gentoo users and for upstream I guess it will work for me too ;-) [06:00] Zdra: ok... i tested it on my two machines here and it works fine... i uploaded it, if you still have any issues please tell me :) [06:00] slomo: ok [06:00] thanks ! [06:01] np :) [06:02] Zdra, slomo: thank you for working on that n-d bug ;) [06:03] seb128: i also included a patch for fixing the assertion failure that mvo worked around last week, do you remember? [06:03] slomo: nop, I just though mvo make the code no stop on assertions to workaround it === nags [n=nags@125.22.101.189] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:03] slomo: but I've had mails issues during the sprint so didn't notice all the changes from previous week [06:04] seb128: yes... now the assertion (well, the only assertion i ever got... not sure if it's really the same) is gone [06:05] slomo: good job ;) === z\ [n=pjphem@unaffiliated/madsheep] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] === Arbiter [n=arbiter@unaffiliated/arbiter] has joined #ubuntu-devel === kent [n=kent@82.145.136.38] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@43.185-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:45] hmm [06:46] ogra, ? === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DB96E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra wonders what went wrong with the current edubuntu iso ... it didnt pick up any chage in the metapackages or seeds === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-194-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-194-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [06:55] ogra: perhaps you were just a bit too quick on the trigger? [06:55] heh, well [06:55] likely [06:56] new edubuntu meta was on a.u.c though [06:56] (binaries) [06:56] ogra: what should have been added? [06:56] removed ... [06:56] or removed [06:56] i merged the ppd drop from ubuntu and dropped blende [06:56] r === wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:57] should have gained at least 17MB [06:57] ogra: what version of edubuntu-meta? [06:57] 1.7 [06:57] ok, that was used [06:58] hmm [06:58] then its weird === Kamion investigates [06:59] + Trying to add foomatic-filters-ppds... [06:59] from the log ... [07:00] something is wrong with my seed checkouts on rookery [07:00] cjwatson@rookery:~/public_html/seeds/edubuntu-edgy$ bzr pull [07:00] Using saved location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.edgy/ [07:00] 0 revision(s) pulled. [07:00] cjwatson@rookery:~/public_html/seeds/edubuntu-edgy$ bzr revno [07:00] 511 [07:00] but the current revno should be 515 [07:01] right [07:01] wich the metapackage update script apprently got ... [07:01] oh, it looks like the http supermirror is broken [07:01] so the seeds are fine [07:01] remember that the metapackage update script uses sftp [07:02] and cdimage ? wget ? [07:02] er, a complicated chain of stuff, but ultimately bzr pull from http [07:02] the logs look like you are making a local copy [07:02] ah [07:02] don't get distracted :) that's not relevant [07:03] ogra: would you mind chasing this up with #launchpad? the problem is that the http mirror of /~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.edgy is out of date [07:03] oki [07:03] thanks === patwack [n=paddy@cpc3-blfs4-0-0-cust387.belf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === fsmw [n=Fernando@225-57-50.adsl.terra.cl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rgould [n=rgould@mail.refractions.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jcole [n=jcole@palrel2.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks [n=ivoks@ubuntu/member/ivoks] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:24] -26? http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/misc/vmware-player-kernel-modules-2.6.15-23 [07:24] err.. http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/misc/vmware-player-kernel-modules [07:25] maybe those should be merged with restricted modules... === mvo [n=egon@p54A65CA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lfittl [n=lfittl@85-125-227-23.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === aigarius [n=aigarius@82.152.74.5] has joined #ubuntu-devel === _TomB [n=tomb@AC8D972F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === TomB| [n=ownthebo@AC8D972F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Trae [n=october@ip24-252-207-46.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:42] https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/22336 Anyone know when this is going to get addressed? This is a fairly nasty bug that seems to affect all laptops. [07:42] Malone bug 22336 in Ubuntu "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Needs info] === scie [n=hermes@cust-163-157.dsl.versateladsl.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:44] Having all Ubuntu laptops shut off when they do any real CPU work doesn't seem like it would be a good thing. [07:45] "If the fan is running at full speed and yet the CPU is overheating, I don't see [07:45] how this can be the fault of the operating system" [07:46] you don't need to comment on bugs here btw, the bug is clearly the best place [07:46] tseng, It's been open for almost a year. [07:46] at what point does someone need to make a comment on it? [07:46] and where? [07:46] Trae: dude, "affect all laptops" is somewhat of an exaggeration [07:46] Keybuk, do you have a laptop? [07:47] Trae: at least my laptop is not affected by this [07:47] (I was not going to feed the troll on that one) [07:47] Trae: yes, several [07:47] 80C is really freaking hot if you didn't know [07:47] [07:47] ~/. [07:47] my pentium 4, legendary for heat output, runs at 45 [07:47] uhr, oops, sorry [07:47] there's an old kernel bug that nobody's figured out that means your laptop wildly over-estimates how hot it is [07:48] so it isn't over-heating, but is just the kernel getting the math wrong === lucas [n=lucas@ubuntu/member/lucas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === TomB_ [n=ownthebo@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pascal80 [n=pascal@86-39-52-206.customer.fulladsl.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:49] Keybuk, would would other Distro's not have this problem? That's the odd thing [07:49] err s/would/why/ [07:49] heh [07:49] Trae: we tend to pull the latest acpi patches, could be in there [07:49] there's some chatter on the bug that suggests it also could be powernowd buggering up -- if you try disabling that, does it still power down? [07:49] Keybuk, k, I would just hope this would be fixed for Edgy [07:50] Keybuk, nod.. I did try that.. and *boom* === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-228-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:50] hmmm [07:50] wait === holycow [n=a@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:50] maybe I tried turning off acpi [07:50] Keybuk, how do you disable powernowd ? === TomB_ [n=ownthebo@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:50] Trae: /etc/init.d/powernowd stop [07:50] nod [07:51] hehe, just tried that [07:51] ok... let me fire up something and see if this sucker dies [07:51] If I go poof, that means no ;) {it didn't work} === TomB_ [n=tomb@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dudus [n=dudus@200.246.22.208] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:56] finally found a long enough video... === Trae waits [07:56] Trae: tail -f /var/log/messages | grep -i acpi [07:56] k [07:57] jcole, hmm nothing is showing up. [07:57] that a good or bad thing? [07:57] heh [07:59] Trae: tail -f /var/log/acpid [07:59] ok [07:59] [Mon Aug 28 01:01:47 2006] completed event "battery BAT0 00000081 00000001" [08:01] Keybuk, hmmm [08:01] Keybuk, stillll going! [08:01] normally this sucker would have shut off by now [08:01] elmo: ping [08:02] lfittl: ? [08:02] elmo: did you get my mail about gnupg and the smartcard reader udev rules? (sry for asking again here, it's just that FF comes closer and closer ;)) [08:03] lfittl: I'm not a maintainer of packages in ubuntu - whatever happens to gnupg in ubuntu isn't my problem/concern [08:03] it seems like powernowd is the culprit [08:03] Keybuk: thanks for pushing through all the backports. I really appreciate it [08:03] I'll post something to the bug letting people know how they can fix things... [08:03] Keybuk, this is working so far and no shutdown, thanks tons. [08:04] elmo: sure, but as you maintain it in debian I thought you might want to take a look at my solution, as I am interested in getting it into Debian sometime === TomB| [n=ownthebo@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === neuralis [n=krstic@solarsail.hcs.HARVARD.EDU] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:07] elmo: and also, I was not sure if gnupg is the right package for it, or if there should be a dedicated package "gnupg-udev" [08:07] a new package sounds like overkill, I'm not sure gnupg is the right p ackage thought [08:07] s/t$$/ === Trae_ [i=october@vector.xyxx.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:08] any idea which package would be better? [08:09] Keybuk ooops. Spoke too soon. === patwack [n=paddy@cpc3-blfs4-0-0-cust387.belf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:09] Keybuk about 6mins into the second video it shut off.... which is way longer than it normally would work. (2 or 3 mins before and it'd shut off) === Tonio___ [n=tonio@vbo91-1-82-238-217-179.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:10] this was after playing a YouTube video for around 12mins it powered off. === Trae_ is now known as Trae [08:11] Trae: hmm, interesting [08:11] ok, what happens if you disable powernowd and then also [08:12] what was that tail command from before? (no longer have history :( [08:12] 13:56 < jcole> Trae: tail -f /var/log/messages | grep -i acpi [08:12] tseng danke === welshbyte [n=welshbyt@cpc1-whit1-0-0-cust45.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:13] sudo sh -c 'echo -n demand > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor' [08:13] Keybuk yessir... you were saying? [08:13] ahh === Mithrandir sighs at the xprop 1.0.1 to 1.0.2 diff. Two added lines of C, 4686 other lines inserted, 3850 lines deleted. Go auto* [08:14] Keybuk I don't have scaling_govenor [08:15] oh wait [08:15] sorry [08:15] typo === Arbiter [n=arbiter@unaffiliated/arbiter] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:17] keep typing something wrong I think.. let me get on irc again and paste it to myself as a msg [08:18] hmm [08:18] I get this Keybuk: [08:18] line: 0 echo write error invalid argument === geser [n=michael@85.25.107.194] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Trae is now known as Trae2 [08:19] cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_governors [08:19] k [08:19] I have: [08:20] userspace powersave ondemand conservative performance [08:20] oh, sorry === Trae [n=october@ip24-252-207-46.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:20] echo -n ondemand :) [08:20] thinko [08:20] okies... heh, got this here so I could cut and paste [08:20] ;) [08:21] ok [08:21] that took [08:21] power off powernowd and try again? [08:21] power off powernowd first [08:22] http://www.shorttext.com/ab7ny [08:22] does powernowd predate ondemand? [08:22] fwiw [08:23] ok, I did that... did powernowd stop && the other comamnd you gave me with ondemand [08:23] and that seemed to take === Trae fires up a video [08:23] Keybuk, anything else ? [08:23] no, try that === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:23] okies === rleigh [n=rleigh@debian/developer/rleigh] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@43.185-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:25] ok.. here we go [08:25] Keybuk anything I should be tailing? [08:26] Trae: /var/log/dmesg may be interesting [08:26] k [08:28] is there a way I can monitor temp? [08:28] watch "acpi -V" [08:29] k [08:29] 63 [08:29] Keybuk mind if I /q you these tmps? [08:29] sure === twilight [n=twilight@ubuntu/member/twilight] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@43.185-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:55] janimo: are you aware that we're getting close to a new knot release? You might want to make sure that xubuntu is in good shape over the next couple of days. === Trae2 reads [08:55] Mithrandir: yes aware that it is planned for Thu [08:55] will test it tomorrow [08:55] Gloubiboulga: started testing otday as well [08:56] janimo: goodie; just wanted to make sure you were aware of it. [08:56] the daily seems fine here fwiw, though I only tested clean and not a dist-upgrade. [08:56] is the switch from powernowd to the ondemand cpufreq governor considered for edgy, for systems which support ondemand ? [08:57] I was reading the paper from OLS about ondemand, and it really looks impressive === Harti [n=Harti@unaffiliated/harti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:59] lucas: I'm not sure [08:59] but ondemand is what I use :) [09:00] it's much more responsive than powernowd [09:00] what's the clean way to switch from powernowd to ondemand ? [09:00] but that's gonna require some rewiring at the acpi-support level [09:00] remove powernowd [09:00] I meant to chat to mjg59 about that at the weekend [09:00] I currently just hacked /etc/acpi/power.sh === TomB| [n=ownthebo@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:01] ok [09:01] make sure your cpufreq modules are probed in [09:01] either via /etc/modules or do it in power.sh, too [09:01] I was more wondering about edgy than about my own laptop [09:02] right [09:02] I hope to see edgy switch away from powernowd [09:02] for yourself, you can actually just use ac.d and battery.d in /etc/acpi [09:02] no need to butcher power.sh [09:03] but Keybuk, pretty please follow up on ondemand for edgy :) [09:03] or at least make powernowd poll more frequently [09:03] the problem is that ondemand requires many more switches than powernowd [09:03] so it's inefficient with processors without fast freq switching [09:03] speedsteps need to be blacklisted [09:04] most modern CPU's switch pretty fast [09:04] enough that you don't notice [09:04] but I can see needing branching code and cpu detection :-/ [09:04] which leads me to believe it won't be ready for edgy [09:04] for sure any pentium M / core duo can be whitelisted [09:05] and I'm pretty sure most turion / athlon64 are fine === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-231-157.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:05] but celeron M's are not for sure [09:05] the ones that scale from 300MHz up to 1.xGHz [09:05] they lag horribly on ondemand === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-231-157.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] === shackan [n=shackan@host129-149.pool876.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DB96E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyg1 [n=zyga@fdu90.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === fsmw [n=Fernando@200.113.154.144] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:19] hey === clee [n=clee@kde/clee] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:21] is there a channel for the hwdb? [09:21] clee: /query ogra [09:21] sladen: ah, that was the nick! thanks. === clee [n=clee@kde/clee] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === Yagisan [n=Yagisan@doomsday/developer/Yagisan] has joined #ubuntu-devel === z\ [n=pjphem@unaffiliated/madsheep] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jlj [n=agp@adsl-69-104-141-185.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:33] Keybuk, thank you again for your time on this matter. You have been most helpful, courteous and attentative. :) [09:34] Keybuk, quick question... any way I can make these changes "stick" between reboots? Like, how can I safely disable powernowd "The Ubuntu Way" so I don't break things? [09:35] and will that ondemand echo thingy you had me do hold after a reboot, or will it require some special attention too? [09:35] Trae: for now, I'd just edit the top of /etc/init.d/powernowd; add the echo and exit 0 :p [09:35] or [09:37] rm /etc/rc2.d/S??powernowd [09:37] and add the echo to /etc/rc.local [09:37] actually, yeah, do the latter [09:37] there's module loading in the powernowd.early script you need [09:38] Keybuk, do those bugs close? Meaning, once they are marked fixed are they gone, or are they kept in an archive for historic purposes on launchpad? [09:38] kept for historical purposes, but marked as closed [09:38] k [09:39] I could just add the two commands to /etc/rc.local at boot right? [09:39] I've not used it in eons [09:39] right [09:40] after the esac thingy [09:40] esac ? [09:40] fwiw, I do Graphics with Linux... I don't code, soo... if I sound uninformed, that's the reason why :) [09:41] it's at the end of the /etc/init.d/rc.local === Mez [i=Mez@195.112.61.155] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:43] Trae: I know, we've actually met [09:43] Keybuk, we have? [09:43] Keybuk, uh oh [09:43] :) [09:43] Trae: ahh, /etc/rc.local not /etc/init.d/rc.local (the latter runs the former) [09:43] Trae: LWE 1999, iirc [09:43] Keybuk, sweet.... that was a great show [09:44] all the linux.com banners all over San Jose [09:44] hehe [09:44] I used to run segfault.org :p [09:44] what was your nick then? [09:44] still Keybuk [09:44] omg [09:44] Scott!! [09:44] hahaha [09:44] You should have said it was you. :P [09:44] I never know you by Keybuk [09:45] hehe [09:45] but immediately recognized SJR ;) [09:45] from the whois [09:45] hmm, didn't I bug you via email recently? *chuckle* [09:45] umm, it's possible [09:46] at any rate, /me hunts for /etc/rc.local === johanbr [n=j@jupiter.physics.ubc.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rleigh_ [n=rleigh@client-82-3-253-25.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === CarlFK [n=carl@c-67-163-39-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zyg1 [n=zyga@fdu90.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === mc44 [n=mc44@ip-81-170-122-22.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-devel === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DB96E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra_ [n=ogra@p548AECBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:09] lfittl, hey ... blender moves to universe .... [10:09] so have fun with it :) [10:10] ogra_: very nice, how come? [10:11] space probs on th edubuntu CD [10:11] edubuntu was what kept it in main ... [10:11] it should move to universe during this week .... [10:11] will get 2.42a synced/merged after it is back to universe :) [10:12] Keybuk: ping [10:12] jdong: hey [10:12] Keybuk: the latest k3b backport was "rejected" from the archive [10:12] k3b: Version newer than that in BACKPORTS. 0.12.17-1ubuntu2~dapper1 >= 0.12.16-1ubuntu3~dapper1 [10:12] :-/ [10:13] right ... ? [10:13] I meant to have the new 0.12.17 backport replace the 0.12.16 backport that did not build [10:14] does the current backports system not work that way? [10:14] you'll have to be a bit more verbose, sorry [10:14] I did a backport of k3b for you [10:14] and that has been rejected because there was already a backport in the archive? [10:14] right [10:14] was the backport-in-the-archive version higher or lower than the one I did? [10:14] the one in the archive was lower [10:15] ok [10:15] and it rejected? [10:15] right [10:15] soyuz bug then [10:15] k :) [10:15] please file a bug in launchpad [10:15] where in launchpad? [10:15] /products/soyuz [10:15] k [10:15] +filebug [10:15] ;) [10:15] ew [10:16] it's got a hardcoded check for *everything* that it's not newer than whatever's in the corresponding backports pocket [10:16] nobody thought to exclude backports from that check apparently :) [10:16] I'm not convinced the check is a good idea anyway - if we want to supersede the backport, then tough, we want to supersede it [10:16] please subscribe me to the bug you file and I'll try to explain that [10:18] Kamion: you are subscribed to bug 58144 [10:18] Malone bug 58144 in soyuz "Backport is rejected if an older backport is already there" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/58144 [10:18] thanks [10:19] and oh yeah, NEW is ok right? (for packages that are new to Edgy and backported to Dapper) [10:19] i.e. someone will eventually allow it through, right? [10:22] well, that happened in the first round of backports and it got processed ... === TomB_ [n=tomb@AC8D3FAA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:23] Keybuk: did someone told you already that upstart made it onto heise.de? (I guess so, given that the news item is a couple of hours old). still nice to see [10:23] what's heise.de? [10:23] german tech news site [10:23] *the* german IT news site [10:23] Keybuk: its the most popular german tech news site === schnabel [n=guido@p54806ABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:24] hello [10:24] Keybuk, http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/77421 === schnabel [n=guido@p54806ABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [10:25] happy bablefishing :) [10:25] heh [10:25] wow, and 300 comments on the story... [10:27] heh, they praise the dependencies you can add through events :P === Gman [i=gman@nat/sun/x-079d58d3adc8bac5] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:31] is edgy at upstream freeze now? [10:31] for main, yes. [10:31] ick [10:31] has been for ages [10:31] I guess :) [10:31] we're nearly at feature freeze === rleigh_ [n=rleigh@client-82-3-253-25.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:31] to my abject terror [10:32] oh well. nano 2.0 about to hit the streets, it'd had been nice to have the round version number [10:32] Kamion: GET CODING! [10:33] <_ion> Talking of which, /me hasn't seen new stuff in the upstart repository for a while. ;-) [10:33] jordi: I doubt anyone other than the nano maintainer (pats you on the head) would much care what version it is. :) [10:34] infinity: heh, even I don't care too much. [10:34] more when I know the changes are basically translation and veeery minor nitpicks [10:34] (since 1.3.12) [10:34] jordi: Frankly, I'm shocked to discover that anything so featureless even gets upstream development, except for the occasional bitrot fixing. [10:35] there's plenty of stuff nano needs to get still [10:35] "removed from the archive"? [10:35] well, give vim to your average ubuntu newbie [10:35] "replaced by ae, we were right in 1999, damnit"? [10:36] <_ion> jordi: A good idea. :-) [10:36] Yeah, vi's a poor choice for anyone who's not an old-skool UNIX hacker. Modal editors are confusing. === _ion guesses the average newbie uses gedit. [10:37] give them gedit when xorg gets fucked up :) [10:37] I remember backgrounding and killing vi out of sheer frustration the first time I used it on a university machine in ~1995. [10:37] hehe [10:37] infinity: hehe [10:37] And the fact that I knew how to background and kill tasks, but not exit my editor, says something. [10:37] infinity: at least you knew how to back.. [10:37] yeah [10:39] grmbl ... next tim i check if a lp bug is fixed before i waste resources ... now i got three identical iso builds ... === lucas_ [n=javier@217.Red-80-25-51.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:39] ogra: one for the public, one for the archive, and one to put on the wall. ;) [10:39] neither will be usable :) [10:40] sentimental value? a reminder? ;) === glatzor_ [n=sebi@ppp-82-135-7-215.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === aigarius [n=aigarius@82.152.74.5] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:53] mjg59: just gonna take a quick break, then can I borrow you for five minutes [10:54] Keybuk: Sure [10:54] mjg59: see comment at bottom of bug #22336 [10:54] Malone bug 22336 in Ubuntu "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Needs info] http://launchpad.net/bugs/22336 [10:55] Hadn't we already decided that ondemand made more sense where possible? [10:55] I've already discussed this with mdz [10:56] Hang on. Let me find a Celeron and test this... [10:57] yeah I thought we had [10:58] how were you planning to decide which? [10:58] Let me check the source again [10:58] But I /believe/ that ondemand will fail if it won't work [10:58] That is, attempting to switch the governer to ondemand will fail === rleigh_ [n=rleigh@client-82-27-252-249.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:00] if (policy->cpuinfo.transition_latency > [11:00] (TRANSITION_LATENCY_LIMIT * 1000)) { [11:00] printk(KERN_WARNING "ondemand governor failed to load " [11:00] "due to too long transition latency\n"); [11:00] Right [11:00] return -EINVAL; [11:00] So try to set /sys/devices/system/cpu/*/cpufreq/scaling_governor to ondemand [11:00] If that fails with EINVAL, set it to userspace and run powernowd [11:01] failed to load. does it mean it still shows up in scaling_available_governors ? [11:01] ok [11:01] No, the failure is when it's started [11:01] I think it'll still appear in the available governors [11:01] Though I'm not certain of that [11:02] it would be easier to just grep for in in available_governors if it doesn't show up [11:04] No, by the looks of it it'll still be in available_governors === jdong_ [n=jdong@d192-24-235-141.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:04] does preload actually make things load faster, or is it a scam like readahead most of the times :) [11:05] jdong: scam [11:05] well, it does make things a bit faster, at the cost of other things [11:05] heh === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-198-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jdong__ [n=jdong@d192-24-235-141.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=pygi@89-172-198-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [11:14] Keybuk: OK, wtf does ROM mean? :-) === z\ [n=pjphem@unaffiliated/madsheep] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:15] Request-Of-Maintainer [11:15] Ah.. [11:15] http://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt [11:15] ^ cf. top of there === bddebian always has to feel stupid :-( [11:17] heh, you weren't to know [11:17] I had to ask once === Huahua_ [n=hua_@122.0.228.165] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:37] bddebian, don't feel bad. I had to ask several times what FTBFS meant about 18 months ago [11:37] Burgwork: What does FTBFS mean? === mdz [n=adconrad@cerberus.0c3.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:39] infinity: You're fired. [11:39] Heh [11:39] Hard to resist. === Burgwork [n=corey@d66-183-174-128.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Burgwork grumbles at FC4 and desktop-multiplier [11:40] anybody say thing? === mvo giggles [11:40] Burgwork: nope. [11:40] Burgwork: but infinity was fired [11:40] Burgwork: :) [11:40] hah [11:41] damn. going to miss infinity [11:41] Lies. [11:41] even if he is a traitor to his own country ;) [11:41] FTBFS == Forgot To Bring Fricking Shot-glass? [11:42] FTBFS, loosely translated, is "That Which Keeps infinity Employed" [11:42] The reason the letters don't seem to match up is because it's translated from the original Latin. [11:42] haha [11:42] what's infinity in latin? [11:42] Burgwork: you're actually using that stuff? ;-) [11:42] lol [11:43] azeem: infinitum, but let's not split hairs. [11:43] mvo: do you have anything to do with opera in dapper-commercial? [11:43] LaserJock, we dog food quite extensively. Mostly it is good, but occasionally we get all sorts of pain [11:44] Hah [11:45] Burgwork: is DM more stable on FC than on dapper? [11:45] hm, what happened to the 2nd powerpc buildd? [11:45] jdong|coreduo: Mithrandir uploaded opera into dapper-commercial. why? [11:46] Apple pushed the self-destruct button? [11:46] LaserJock, it is mostly stable. We have a set hardware formula though. [11:46] radeon 7000 [11:46] LaserJock, on my i915 box, it simply power cycles constantly [11:47] mvo: users are requesting the 9.01 update [11:48] slomo: Weird grid failure in the DC, being investigated, current ETA unknown. [11:50] infinity: thanks... so i really have to wait for gcj to finish ;) [11:50] slomo: Yes. :P [11:51] crimsun: is there any chance for azureus 2.5.0.0 from sid -> edgy? [11:51] our ubuntu version is pretty unusable [11:52] jdong|coreduo: It's on the merges list [11:52] ok, cool [11:52] nvm then === jdong|coreduo goes back to the backports list [11:52] I think I tried it once but it didn't build or something strange === mvo goes to bed [11:52] I wouldn't be surprised === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:53] bddebian: but nobody will probably touch it... it's not the easiest merge and the tarballs differ and doko did fairly large changes [11:53] slomo: I tried :) [11:54] Later folks [11:54] bddebian: me too but i gave up :P maybe doko cares for it at some point === jdong|coreduo joins ktorrent camp in the meantime :) === pvanhoof [n=pvanhoof@d54C0F01A.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:00] infinity: could you please giveback mail-notification and link-monitor-applet on sparc and powerpc? === allee [n=ach@allee.exgal.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:02] geser: Done. [12:02] thanks === lucas_ [n=javier@217.Red-80-25-51.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #ubuntu-devel []