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KeybukI knew there was something I was supposed to do today12:14
LarstiQreplace shutdown by upstart?12:15
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=== jdong|coreduo wonders what would happen if he installed upstart on his dapper box
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Keybukjdong|coreduo: you'll need a libc update12:23
Keybukit only builds on edgy12:23
jdong|coreduoaww :(12:23
jdong|coreduoKeybuk: you're ruining all my fun :)12:23
jdong|coreduoexcuse my complete lack of knowledge about upstart, but will all existing sysv init scripts need to be rewritten?12:24
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Burgworkjdong, no12:25
Burgworkjdong, before you ask any further questions, I suggest you read Keybuk's rather extensive blog post12:25
Burgworkthis weeks UWN covers it12:25
Keybuk"need", no12:26
=== jdong|coreduo must've skimmed the post too fast :-/
jdong|coreduowould upstart result in any kind of bootup/shutdown speed improvement?12:28
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Keybukjdong|coreduo: eventually, yes12:40
Keybukthough that isn't its goal12:40
jdong|coreduok, gotcha12:40
BurgworkKeybuk, would it be fair to say that the archiecture makes such improvements easier to implement?12:41
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KeybukBurgwork: yes12:42
ograKeybuk, i have a weird problem with my ltsp here ... apparently the NIC always starts in half duplex mode ... do you know how evil it would be to run  mii-tool -F 100base-Tx-FD in my initscript of the client ? would NICs that dont have 100base-Tx-FD support break on that or just gracefully fall back to something sane 12:43
Burgworkright. I am going to writing something about upstart as part of the Knot2 release thingy12:43
ograi.e. how forcefully is the force switch ? :)12:44
Keybukogra: they'd break12:45
Keybukin particular, you'd break any NIC plugged into a hub12:45
ograright 12:45
Keybukas you'd force it into 100base-Tx-FD overriding whatever it had auto-sensed12:45
Keybuk(hubs are almost never FD :p)12:45
ograi'm plugged into a hub12:45
ogra<- heavy headdesking12:45
Keybukare you sure that it really should be at FD ?12:45
Keybukif you're plugged into a hub, it would not surprise me that HD is the best you can get12:46
Keybukif you set it to FD, do you get lots of errors?12:46
ograwell, if i force it to FD i can import my 10Gig of music from the usb disk on the thin client to rhythmbox and my session doesnt die ...12:47
ograin HD that doesnt work12:47
Keybukwhy doesn't it work?12:48
ograthe network gets saturated and the ssh session dies (locks up)12:48
ograusually after 10-20 mins12:49
ograi switched to FD more than 1h ago and the music still plays fine ... desktop is responsive etc12:50
Keybukwhat's the error count in ifconfig?12:50
ograRX: 159712:50
ograthe rest 012:50
ogra1601 now12:51
Keybukthen something isn't doing FD properly ;)12:52
Keybukerrors should always be 0 on a wired interface12:52
mjrwell, close to it anyway12:52
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ograyay, finally ... 6M to go on i386 ....01:07
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zulhey ogra 01:26
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ograhey zul 01:27
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profoX`hey guys -- i wanted to apologise for not coming to the TB meeting yesterday -- i made a point on the agenda, but it slipped my mind (just wanted to say that)01:28
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Kr4t05Hey, guys.02:08
Burgworkhey k402:08
Kr4t05I have a question about Edgy+1. Are there any plans to merge InitNG into Ubuntu?02:08
Kr4t05Or, is that in line for Edgy?02:08
Kr4t05Just thought I would ask. :)02:09
BurgworkKr4t05, got a link for you, just a sec02:09
BurgworkKr4t05, http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/upstart.html02:09
Burgworkread that02:09
Burgworkit was answer all your initng questions02:09
Kr4t05Ah, even from the intro, it sounds awesome. :)02:11
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Kr4t05Ok, thanks. :)02:15
Kr4t05So, is this upstart going to be seen any time soon? 02:15
Kr4t05Oh, oops.02:15
=== Kr4t05 reads further.
Kr4t05Oh, neat. :)02:16
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Burgworkwhen you are done reading, then ask questions02:16
Burgworkor not02:16
HrdwrBoBI think he's done :)02:16
Burgworkwhich is good02:16
sladenogra: forcing full duplex assumes that the other end is directly connected to a wire-speed non-blocking device;  a modern switch or direct PC<->PC connection02:17
Burgworkthink I should add the upstart link to the topic?02:18
sladenBurgwork: as long as if that is done, the answer isn't RTFM02:23
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Burgworksladen, have you installed the LAMP option? 02:26
UbugtuMalone bug 58161 in ubuntu-website "http://www.ubuntu.com/server incorrectly only mentions PHP for LAMP" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  02:26
infinityBurgwork: The bug is invalid.  We don't install mod_python or mod_perl, only mod_php, so the website is correct.02:27
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Burgworkinfinity, that is what I thought02:27
infinityAnd, 3rd party definitions don't much matter in this case. :)02:27
Burgworkyep. Rejected with extreme prejudice02:28
infinityLAMP used to stand for Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP originally.  Now it may be Linux, Apache and Many Possible database and scripting options.02:28
infinityBut that's not what we install. :)02:28
sladenBurgwork: I haven't installed the LAMP option.  Haven't got a clue how to---it never seemed to actually get mentioned.  I presume it's a meta-package02:29
infinitysladen: It's (currently) a book option on the server CD.  Will be a task in edgy.02:29
lifelessinfinity: I thought LAMP meant perl ;)02:30
=== Burgwork smacks lifeless ;)
HrdwrBoBlifeless: it used to02:30
HrdwrBoBmany years ago02:31
infinitylifeless: I'd be cool with that, mod_perl is great to use.  But it's not what the average user who'd pick a "LAMP install" blindly is likely looking for either. :)02:31
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infinityAnyhow, wikipedia claims the term was coined in a c't article in 1998, and that article claims it was PHP, so I win. :P02:33
Burgworkinfinity, and wikipedia also claims elephant numbers are increasing...02:33
infinityClearly visible by visiting a goth club.02:34
Burgworkor any fast food joint02:34
sladenit was probably mSQL instead of MySQL aswell...02:36
infinitysladen: Not according to the article in question, anyway.02:36
JanCtrappist: seems like I missed your last message on bug 58002 before posting my comments; my second one might be a more general solution provided it causes no other problems...?02:36
UbugtuMalone bug 58002 in vim "vim should populate skel/.viminfo so ownership is not affected by initial sudo" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5800202:36
sladenJanC: simple question.  what command would you run to edit /etc/apt/sources.list ?02:39
JanC'sudo -e /etc/apt/sources.list' ?02:40
Burgworkwhy do we even ship vim and emacs?02:41
Burgworkaside from the screaming if we didn't?02:41
HrdwrBoBbecause people use them all the time?02:41
HrdwrBoBemacs you could potentially lose02:42
HrdwrBoBsince it's massive02:42
Burgwork"people" use irc all the time and we dropped that02:42
sladenJanC: okay, most people (including me) would do  sudo emacs ...  and we have to cope with that (even if  export EDITOR=... and sudo -e  would be better)02:42
JanCvim is massive too  ;)02:42
HrdwrBoBand people who use it are all insane02:42
Burgworkin fact, I would say that more people used xchat than vim or emacs02:42
Burgworkinfinity, what is your gut feeling? should I suggest we not ship them?02:43
HrdwrBoBI know less than a handful of people who use emacs02:43
sladenBurgwork: vim: so that people can edit files.  Emacs is not installed by default, but it is a programmers editor and normally the first thing I install02:43
JanCsladen: but my second message was about the 'always_set_home' flag in sudoers02:43
HrdwrBoBI know MANY people that use vim02:43
HrdwrBoBpeople that use emacs are *ALL* "hardcore"02:43
Burgworksladen, umm, nano?02:43
HrdwrBoBnot all people that use vim are02:43
Burgworkvim is awful to use02:43
Burgworkif you *just* need to edit a text file to get up and running again, you can use nano02:44
infinityBurgwork: We'r enot going to stop shipping some vi variant in -minimal.02:44
sladenBurgwork: Ubuntu is "awful" to use if you've used DOS all your life.  People are comfortable using what they are familiar with...02:44
infinityBurgwork: It belongs there.02:44
Burgworkthen at least lets ship the smallest bloody vim we can02:44
infinityWe've talked about vim-tiny, but it's still undecided.02:44
infinityI'd be happy with nvi, personally, but whatever.02:44
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HrdwrBoBtbh as long as it came with 'viu'02:45
JanCI use 'nano' to add universe so I can install 'joe'  :)02:45
HrdwrBoBmost people wouldn't care that vim had to be installed02:45
sladenBurgwork: that's a proposal/spec worth making.  If I'm not getting my 'emacs' by default I want to ensure that the 'vi' nutters are penalised aswell02:45
Burgworkaside from infinity's "it belongs there" arguement. Why do we need it? I am not trolling. I am asking a serious question from a non0technical users standpoint02:45
HrdwrBoB'vim' not 'vi'02:45
HrdwrBoBvi is a core unix util which has a reasonable expectation of being their02:45
HrdwrBoBvim is not02:46
sladenHrdwrBoB: this is a valid point, can you write a spec?02:46
Burgworkare things going to break if it is not included? it is easily apt-getable?02:46
BurgworkI can see if somebody writes vim/vi into a script and thus it would silently fail, but I just don't see someone doing that02:46
lifelessthey'd use ed to do that02:47
infinityBurgwork: Nothing breaks, except the brains of thousand of old UNIX hacks.  A small vi is not a size hit, and people who don't know what vi is will never rnu it, so there's no harm in having it there to satisfy old farts like me.02:47
HrdwrBoBsladen: I can do that, can you point me in the right direction02:47
Burgworkinfinity, ok. Installed size is 1.5mb02:48
infinityBurgwork: For vim?  Bigger than that, you're missing vim-runtime and other scariness.02:49
Burgworkyes, I just saw vim-common at 21mb02:49
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sladenHrdwrBoB: https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+addspec is a good place, it'll guide you through the specificaiton registration and give you the templated wiki page to fill in02:49
Burgworkat 21mb, that is insane02:49
HrdwrBoBsladen: cheers02:49
sladenthat is BIGGER.  THAN.  EMACS02:49
BurgworkHrdwrBoB, point me at the spec wiki page and I will add some commentary02:50
Burgworkanyway, got to go home02:50
infinityBurgwork: vim-tiny is small, though, and nvi is even smaller.02:50
HrdwrBoBinfinity: what does vim-tiny offer someone that they wouldn't install vim anyway02:51
bddebianHowdy folks02:51
infinityHrdwrBoB: A useable 'vi'?02:51
tsengHrdwrBoB: it offers vi in significantly less space?02:51
HrdwrBoBtseng: um02:51
HrdwrBoBwhat I mean is if you install vim-tiny instead of nvi02:52
HrdwrBoBwould people actually care02:52
tsengthat isnt what you said02:52
HrdwrBoBor are all 'vim people' going to isntall vim anyway02:52
tsengI am02:52
HrdwrBoBin which case, vim-tiny is not useful02:52
tsengbut if i have no vi at all, I will be pissed02:52
infinityHrdwrBoB: vim-tiny sucks a bit less than nvi.  Fewer irritating misfeatures (like resetting the editor mode when you hit the beginning of a line) and such.02:52
tsengthis applies to 1000s of people02:52
HrdwrBoBwhich is why you would have nvi02:53
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HrdwrBoByou can't not have vi02:53
bddebiannano-tiny!! :-)02:53
crimsunKeybuk: ping02:55
sladendpkg -L vim vim-common vim-runtime | xargs -I'{}' find '{}' -type f -maxdepth 0 | xargs du -sch   23MB ...02:55
JanCbddebian: you mean we have to replace nano with nano-tiny to save some 100 KiB of disk space ?   ;-)02:55
infinitysladen: Yes, this isn't news.02:56
jdongare dependency waits automatic or require intervention?02:57
infinityjdong: automatic02:57
jdongi.e. amarok backport needs libtunepimp3 backport02:57
jdongwill amarok try again once libtunepimp3 is ready?02:57
infinityjdong: Assuming the build-deps are correctly versioned.02:57
sladeninfinity: yeah, I doubled-checked it as I couldn't believe  ^Installed-Size: 02:57
infinityjdong: Yeah, looks like it did it right.  Should work fine.02:58
jdongk, cool02:58
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infinityjdong: I'll push all the libtunepimp stuff through dapper's NEW queue once powerpc has caught up.02:59
bddebianJanC: Yep ;-P02:59
jdongcool, thanks for everything, infinity :)02:59
bddebianOr you could alway just remove emacs from the archive and save even more space03:00
=== bddebian ducks
jdongbddebian: lol, you duck quite a bit :)03:00
sladenbddebian: we don't installed emacs by default "because it's too big"03:00
JanCbddebian: we could remove all editors except 'ed'  ;-)03:00
bddebianI know, I was being sarcastic sorry :-)03:00
jdongworld bandwidth conservation day... :)03:00
infinityJanC: Why use ed, when you can just use dd?03:01
bddebianJanC: I like it :-)03:01
infinityJanC: Seek for characters in a reference file and construct the target.03:01
infinityJanC: Alternately, there's always shipping tiny magnets and magnifying glasses alongside the shipit CDs.03:01
infinityAnd perhaps a screwdriver.03:01
JanChm, at least that magnifying glass & screwdriver sound useful  :-)03:02
Keybukcrimsun: 'sup?03:06
crimsunKeybuk: hi, do you mind if I merge alsa-driver? I'd like to close bug 46996 and its dupes.03:06
UbugtuMalone bug 46996 in alsa-driver "Hotplugged sound devices get sound card index of 0 instead of PCI card" [Wishlist,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4699603:06
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Keybukcrimsun: will you need a UVF?03:07
crimsunKeybuk: for 1.0.11-3ubuntu1 -> 1.0.11-5ubuntu1 ? No, unless I misunderstand the exception process utterly.03:08
zulhey Hobbsee 03:08
Keybukno, you don't then03:08
Hobbseehey all03:08
Keybukgo for it03:08
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crimsunKeybuk: thanks.03:08
Hobbseewoo!  syncs got done again :)03:11
jdongHobbsee: yeah :)03:11
Hobbseejdong: backports too?03:11
jdongkeybuk's been busy today :)03:11
Hobbseeindeed :)03:12
HrdwrBoBit's not complete, but it's a start03:17
Hobbseeremove nano :P03:18
Hobbseeas long as we keep vi..03:19
=== jdong looks through edgy-changes for things worth backporting :)
HrdwrBoBhangon let me get this straight03:19
HrdwrBoBvim/emacs is in a default install? or just on the CD03:19
bddebianI'm too stupid for a "real" editor, I need my nano ;-P03:19
zulHobbsee: i totally agree03:19
HobbseeHrdwrBoB: vi at least is in the default install03:19
bddebianjdong: You can do the fix on firestarter for me03:20
HrdwrBoBHobbsee: not vi, vim03:20
bddebianIt's a security issue03:20
jdongbddebian: we really shouldn't be using dapper-backports for security issues :-/03:20
HobbseeHrdwrBoB: true that.03:20
jdongbut it sounds like it needs source changes anyway :)03:20
jdongbddebian: is it the version in edgy?03:21
bddebianjdong: It is now03:22
bddebianjdong: Should be same as dapper + some changes03:22
jdong!info firestarter edgy03:22
=== jdong mumbles
jdongfirestarter (1.0.3-1.2ubuntu2) edgy; urgency=low03:22
jdongthat one?03:23
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=== jdong downloads sources
Hobbseehey Burgundavia 03:24
bddebianHeya Burgundavia03:24
jdongI'd like to take this moment to complain a bit about why archive.ubuntu.com is so slow?03:24
Burgundaviahey Hobbsee, bddebian03:25
Burgundaviajdong: the DC in london is having issue, afaik03:25
jdongah, fascinating03:25
BurgundaviaHrdwrBoB: this yours: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TextEditorCDRemoval03:25
HrdwrBoBBurgundavia: yes03:26
Burgundaviaping me when you are done with it03:26
HrdwrBoBI'm done with it for the moment03:26
HrdwrBoBI have some actual work to do :)03:26
Burgundaviaright, will dig away03:26
HrdwrBoBcool, cheers03:27
jdongbddebian: merry christmas, bug 5816403:29
UbugtuMalone bug 58164 in dapper-backports "firestarter backport" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5816403:29
bddebianjdong: Thx!03:29
bddebianWow, all those syncs brought down the merge list a little :-)03:29
=== jdong marvels at how fast his core duo cranked out a firestarter deb :)
=== jdong grumbles at how slow XFS is at installing it since 2.6.17's write barriers
lifelesswrite barriers? 03:33
jdonglifeless: yeah, flushing that annoying write cache to make sure nothing gets lost in abrupt shutdown03:33
jdongwithout it, even journaling FS'es can corrupt during bad shutdowns03:34
jdongXFS's aggressiveness makes it exceptionally vulnerable to this03:34
jdongso, safety at the cost of performance :-/03:34
lifelesswhen does it flush now ?03:34
lifelessnot every write ?03:34
HrdwrBoBit works ok for me :)03:34
jdongright now the hd is responsible for flushing its own cache03:35
HrdwrBoB(though I have XFS setup with an external journal and my disks have a large write cache)03:35
jdongHrdwrBoB: extern journal turns off barriers on XFS03:35
jdongin 2.6.17, XFS team turned on write barriers by default03:35
jdongso the filesystem keeps track of what's currently in the hd's cache03:36
lifelessah, I see03:36
jdongfrom what I've heard, ext3 has been doing this for some time now03:36
jdongthe goal was to address the xfs_repair-after-shutdown issues people have been complaining about03:36
lifelessyeah, writing over whats in cache in the hd would be failure prone03:36
HrdwrBoBwriting over?03:37
jdonguntil now, the XFS team has been just blaming it on cheap PC hardware :P03:37
jdonglifeless: it's not writing over as much as it is losing...03:37
HrdwrBoBnot really, the cache is gone after no power03:37
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HrdwrBoBjdong: which realistically is fair, since XFS was designed to run on real hardware03:37
HrdwrBoBwith persistant write buffers03:37
jdongHrdwrBoB: right, but I own cheap hardware but still want to run XFS :)03:37
jdubHrdwrBoB: it was also designed to run with a real operating system... ;-)03:38
jdongtorrenting really blows on ext3/reiserfs03:38
HrdwrBoBthey also suck a lot for large filesystems03:38
HrdwrBoBhowever, xfs delete times are awful.03:38
jdongI agree03:38
HrdwrBoBso you can't win03:39
jdonga large journaling area + logbufs=8 helps a bit03:39
jdongbut that's just a band-aid03:39
HrdwrBoBI'm talking about a few hundred thousand files03:39
jdongI know, I feel the pain of cleaning out pbuilders every few hours03:39
jdongfor what I gain from XFS, it's a trade-off I am willing to make03:39
jdongext3 just simply does not work out for me03:40
HrdwrBoBI use rsync+hardlinks to do backups03:40
HrdwrBoBso I end up with LOTS of files03:40
jdongand after trying to repair two different reiserfs corruptions, I've learned that fsck.reiserfs might as well be symlinked to mkfs.reiserfs :)03:40
jdonglifeless: btw, bzr is just rocking recently.... handling my kernels superbly03:41
lifelessthats fantastic nes03:41
HrdwrBoBjdong: though I screwed XFS by trying to use it on an amd64 kernel03:41
HrdwrBoBwhen it was made/used by a 32bit kernel03:41
jdongHrdwrBoB: ouch... yeah, that's a tough lesson to learn03:41
jdongHrdwrBoB: did you dodge the directory corruption thing?03:42
jdongthat sucked for XFS's reputation :-/03:42
HrdwrBoByeah I managed to get around that, fortunately03:42
jdongthe other good thing about xfs, it provides me with xfs_fsr to entertain me when I'm bored03:44
jdongI can fit in with Windows users and say that I defrag my filesystem :P03:44
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jdubHrdwrBoB: xfs doesn't work with 64 bit kernels, or is it a filesystem portabiity issue?03:47
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jdongjdub: a xfs volume made in a 32-bit arch can't be used on a 64-bit arch03:48
jdongif you mount it, you'll corrupt it03:49
jdubthat is so much bong03:49
jdongno kidding :-/03:49
jdubis that a linux port issue, or an xfs-in-general issue? i can't imagine why xfs would have portability problems... crazy!03:49
HrdwrBoBjdub: portability03:50
HrdwrBoBlinux port issue afaik03:50
maswanjdong: that's interesting, considering that I'm fairly sure I run that03:50
maswan(or did I run a 64-bit kernel all the time on that host perhaps?)03:50
jdongmaswan: I've mounted one of my 32-bit xfs partitions under amd64 before, and it didn't seem to mess up 03:50
jdongbut so many people have reported problems and the XFS team has said not to do it... so.... yeah03:51
jdub"doctor, it hurts if i hold my hand above my head!"03:51
jdub"well, don't do that"03:51
jdongjdub: i saw my doctor about something like that a week back03:52
jdonghe sent me home with a bottle of vicodin03:52
HrdwrBoBthe problem is, it's not obvious03:53
HrdwrBoBand the documentation on it is sparse03:53
maswanno mention of it in the faq either03:53
HrdwrBoBI didn't realise that was the problem until I found an xfs mailing list post saying "my data is toast!"03:53
jdongthere's mention in XFS's wikipedia article03:54
HrdwrBoB# On the Linux XFS implementations, compatibility issues between 64-bit and 32-bit environments exist.03:54
HrdwrBoBthat's a far cry from "you will frag all your data if you change to 64 bit"03:55
jdongI know, very vague and not the red bold warning it deserves03:55
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jdubthat's why wikipedia is a wiki tho :)03:55
maswanah, reading some ml stuff, there are mentions of things like patches to fix log replay when changing bitness and so03:56
HrdwrBoBmaswan: yeah very recently iirc03:56
maswanso it might only be a "frag all data if you have change to 64 bit while having a dirty log"?03:57
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HrdwrBoBcould be04:00
jdongany firestarter "experts" in here?04:00
maswanI like starting fires, but that's probably not what you're asking about.04:00
jdongnvm, pseudo-answered my own question04:01
jdongwhen you open a port, it opens both tcp/udp04:01
jdongI was wondering why it didn't ask me which04:01
jdonggood old iptables -L04:01
jdongbut either way, the backport looks good, bddebian04:02
=== jdong grumbles that he had to install a firewall on his laptop :P
bddebianjdong: Well I might duck a lot but you grumble alot ;-P04:02
=== jdong grumbles that azureus isn't merged yet :P
=== jdong specifically grumbles at bddebian :)
bddebianjdong: I'm going to try to look tomorrow but it may be over my head and I don't want doko kicking my ass :-)04:04
jdongbut think of it this way: it can't be any less usable than the current azureus package that he made04:04
=== jdong ducks, too :)
bddebianWell that's what everyone always says until I upload something ;-)04:05
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jdongwell, I'm calling it a night. take care, everyone :)04:09
Hobbseejdong: feel free to fix it :)04:09
bddebianGnight jdong, thanks again04:09
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slomoinfinity: ping? :) could you please accept dbus from binary NEW for all archs?04:15
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jdubmako: ping (planet debian)04:29
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makojdub: yes04:38
jdubmako: howdy - you should upgrade planet debian to planet 2.0 when you have a minute. it is much nicer, and handles some weird feeds better.04:39
robertjjdub: does planet 2 fix the phenomena by which broken feeds get almost every post reposted sequentially?04:41
jdubrobertj: that was fixed much earlier than 2.004:42
robertjI just seem to recall seeing it alot on p.g.o. 04:42
jdubrobertj: not for aaaaaaages04:42
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wubrgamerwhich user owns the apache daemon by default ? on ubuntu ?06:20
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dcstimm_hey guys, what is the difference between the 6.06.1 livecd and the 6.06 livecd for ppc? does it fix any of the imac issues?06:31
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LaserJockdcstimm_: imac issues?06:33
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dcstimm_yeah the isight imac g5 boots to black video06:33
dcstimm_the imac pre ALS goes crazy when you boot it up and the fans go on high and the console is broken06:34
dcstimm_imac g4s do not boot and have graphic issues with usplash06:34
dcstimm_so I was wondering the change log for 6.06.1 to see if anything was fixed06:35
dcstimm_anyone know?06:39
LaserJockwell, do you have a fully upgraded Dapper06:39
LaserJocki.e. are you using the dapper-security and dapper-updates repositories?06:40
dcstimm_im talking about the livecd06:41
LaserJockhmm, well you could check for bug reports on Launchpad and see if they say anything06:42
LaserJockI just don't know of that specific problem06:42
dcstimm_LaserJock, i am just looking for a changelog06:43
dcstimm_there must be a change log between 6.06 and 6.06.106:43
dcstimm_isnt there?106:43
LaserJockhmm, not sure06:43
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dcstimm_standard documentation shouldnt be this hard to find06:45
LaserJockdcstimm_: the release announcement is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-August/000088.html06:45
LaserJockI don't see anything about imacs but again, a bug report might be more useful06:47
LaserJockI see a few bug reports about g5 imacs having boot problems06:49
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MithrandirSeveas: why do you think that aiglx in 58015 comes from an unsupported repo?08:14
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HockoI have found a major bug in ubuntu that renders it useless.09:23
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mdkeHocko: please report it at http://bugs.ubuntu.com09:25
infinityHocko: That might be a bit dramatic.  It's certainly not useless to everyone.09:26
HockoWell the bug is when my wife hogs the computer I cant use it!!!!!!!! and she wont get off.09:26
mdkedefinitely a major one09:26
HrdwrBoBHocko: get another PC09:27
Hockocome on that is some funny shit09:27
HrdwrBoBalternateively, use multi-seat ubuntu.09:28
HrdwrBoBbut first, please take this discussion to #ubuntu-offtopic09:28
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Burgundaviamdke: remove vim from the default install: queue flamewar09:29
mdkesounds like a plan to me, although that one wasn't my suggestion09:29
Burgundaviasomebody else just suggested on the cd thread09:30
mdkeyeah, I read it09:30
mdkeis a good idea, I think. People who like vim can install it, nano/gedit/kate are provided by default.09:30
mdkebut doesn't sabdfl use vim?09:30
HrdwrBoBsabdfl can't use apt-get?09:31
HrdwrBoBI use gvim, that's not installed by default either09:31
Burgundaviaregardless of specific people: do the majority of ubuntu users (or even a very large minority) use vim09:33
jdubsysadmins the world over will hurt you09:33
BurgundaviaI doubt the answer to that is yes09:33
mdkemaybe a significant majority09:33
mdkewhoops, *minority09:33
mdkejdub: they can install it too09:33
Burgundaviajdub: then vim can survive on a -server seed09:33
Burgundaviapersonally, I am not afraid of sysadmins09:34
Burgundaviaus desktop users outnumber them09:34
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jdubthe package sizes are not that huge anyway09:35
Burgundaviavim is almost 20 mb installed09:35
HrdwrBoBsysadmins needs to stop whinging so damn much and get on with their lives09:35
jdubinstalled vs. packages09:35
Burgundaviajdub: installed is what counts on the cd09:36
HrdwrBoB(I say that as a sysadmin)09:36
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: we sysads can just make the whole internet stop and make you desktop users cry09:36
jdubjsgotangco: score.09:36
jsgotangcobye bye MMORPG09:36
Burgundavianah, I will just recruit the emacs users to keep it running09:36
Burgundaviaas they will be pleased we stopped shipping vim09:37
jdubvim-tiny -> desktop; vim -> server09:37
infinityjdub: s/desktop/minimal/09:37
jdubinfinity: yeah09:37
infinityjdub: But, yes, Colin and I were discussing that yestersay.09:37
infinityyesterday, too.09:38
HrdwrBoBjdub: why vim tiny?09:38
HrdwrBoBand not nvi09:38
jdubat least that solves the problem without punching too many people in the face09:38
jdubHrdwrBoB: vim is at least vim, not vi09:38
infinitynvi has some annoying misfeatures that driveme batty.09:39
infinityOtherwise, I couldn't care less which one we choose.09:39
HrdwrBoBI contended earlier that people who want vim will insteal real-vim09:39
infinitynvi isn't THTA much smaller, though.09:39
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jdubinfinity: misfeatures like... being vi? ;)09:39
infinityjdub: Like dropping out of insert mode when you hit the beginning of a line, stuff like that.09:40
SeveasMithrandir, because quinn storms recent updates og the -i810 driver and aiglx have caused problems for more people09:41
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bluefoxicyIt is 4am10:01
bluefoxicyI leave you with this thought, because I do not have time or really care10:01
bluefoxicySomeone in #svn brought up that if you compress an input with gzip, then bzip2, you get significant gains10:02
bluefoxicythis is also said to work with bzip2 and then gzip10:02
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bluefoxicyI'm not sure why; my best hypothesis is that compression leaves characteristics of the input stream in the output stream (after all, input is simply redundancy-eliminated and character encoded; patterns not affected by the algorithm will carry), and so rolling a different compression methodology past it allows the second pass to freely operate on those properties.10:03
bluefoxicyThis is only conjecture; but for similar concept, look into electronic codebook encoding with block ciphers.  Here is an encrypted picture of Tux:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tux_ecb.jpg10:04
thombluefoxicy: is this going to become relevant any time soon?10:04
bluefoxicyAnd with that I leave you for the night.  (lzma debs vs gzip/bz2 vs gzip/bz2/lzma?)10:04
bluefoxicythom:  no clue; but at least the thought is circulating.10:05
thomthere's a reason that whilst we _can_ do bzip2 debs very, very few are. the relatively small gain is not worth the overhead10:06
bluefoxicythom:  personally I don't care.  I have a memory allocator to write in an attempt to solve a flaw in heap based management and reduce memory usage massively.10:06
bluefoxicythom:  no, I mean input -> gzip -> bzip210:06
bluefoxicysomeone brought up that, strangely, the fact that it's gzipped already doesn't stop bzip2 from also causing a 20% reduction if it would have caused a 20% reduction on the input stream, or some such nonsense10:07
bluefoxicythom:  I have no answer for A) if it really works that way; B) if so, why it works that way; or C) If it's significant enough that anyone cares.  Regardless, such things are interesting; if everyone kept their ideas to themselves where would we be?10:08
thomon topic?10:08
bluefoxicynormally I'd prove it and give a stronger argument but I'm tired, it's 4am, and I have class tomorrow,10:08
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dholbachgood morning10:12
Hobbseehey dholbach 10:12
dholbachhey Hobbsee10:12
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Chipzzanyone knows if something broke in ssh (the client) recently?10:17
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KamionHrdwrBoB: nvi has crappy undo, vim-tiny doesn't. that alone is enough to recommend vim-tiny10:34
Kamionand honestly, I'll revert any seed change that removes vim altogether10:34
Kamionsorry, that removes vi altogether10:34
KamionI'd merely protest very loudly about replacing it with nvi10:35
seb128Kamion: hi. Did you get the UVF mail about gimp?10:35
HrdwrBoBremoving vi is stupid and not an option :)_10:35
HrdwrBoBI 100% agree10:35
KamionHrdwrBoB: right, but Burgundavia doesn't10:36
Kamionseb128: I think so, will check later10:37
KamionChipzz: perhaps you could give some detail?10:37
seb128Kamion: ok, no hurry ;)10:37
ChipzzKamion: ssh dsa keys take forever to login10:37
Chipzzrsa keys work10:37
KamionChipzz: nothing in the client has changed in that regard10:38
ChipzzKamion: could just as well be the server though10:38
Kamionuse -vvv (or -ddd on the server) to diagnose exactly where the slowness is10:38
ChipzzKamion: it accepts my first 2 (non-dsa) keys, whihc are not authorized, but it never gets around to accepting the third key10:41
Lathiati've noticed that10:41
Lathiatit'd just sit there on a key forever10:42
Lathiatnever figured out why had to SSG_AGENT=""10:42
Kamionhappy to try to diagnose further given a bug with a -vvv trace10:43
Lathiatyeh if im able to reproduce it again i'll let you know10:43
Lathiatiirc it sat on the trying private key bit10:43
Lathiatbut yeh i'll get a -vvv next stime i see it10:43
Lathiatelse maybe Chipzz can get one :)10:43
Kamionrevno: 78510:46
Kamion  replace vim with vim-tiny in minimal; move vim to ship10:46
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MithrandirKamion: do you know how I mark edgy as frozen?10:50
sivangMithrandir: is there a knot planned ?10:50
Mithrandirsivang: yes, don't you read u-d-a?10:50
sivangMithrandir: been out of date lately...should come to terms with my exploding mbox soon.10:51
KamionMithrandir: hmm, you might need to be in ubuntu-drivers - let me have a look10:51
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Mithrandir] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | 6.06.1 released | Main frozen for knot-2 - ask Mithrandir for freeze exceptions
Kamionhmm, I *used* to be able to make that change - I know I made it for dapper10:53
KamionMithrandir: ask Keybuk, see if a member of the tech board can do it10:53
Kamionfailing that, ask #launchpad10:53
KamionMithrandir: so, it would be nice to figure out why gparted is popping up dialogs behind ubiquity10:54
sivangMithrandir: uploads wil be resumed afterwards right?10:54
Tonio_is the knot 2 freeze ended, or should I wait a bit to upoad ?10:55
MithrandirKamion: uh, when did it start doing that?10:55
KamionTonio_: it only just started10:55
KamionMithrandir: after the initial merge from Debian in edgy10:55
MithrandirTonio_: it started just now, so if you want to upload to main, you'll need to hold off.10:55
Tonio_kamnion, let's wait a bit then :)10:55
KamionI've never been able to figure out why10:55
KamionI meant to get a couple of gtk hackers to investigate at the sprint, but forgot10:55
Mithrandirsivang: yes, we'll be in UVF, getting close to FF afterwards.10:56
MithrandirKamion: he doesn't seem to be around, though.  I'll drop him a mail.10:56
sivangMithrandir: k, thanks.10:56
KamionMithrandir: I have two more pieces of no-more-devfs to upload (just merges). Can I do that?10:56
Kamionspecifically nobootloader and partman-target10:57
MithrandirKamion: you're confident in them?  If so, upload away.10:57
KamionMithrandir: as confident as I am in the other bits of no-more-devfs that are already in the archive10:57
Kamionwhich is a slightly weasel answer :)10:57
MithrandirKamion: go ahead, then. :-)10:57
KamionI'd rather fix the whole thing than just most of it10:58
ChipzzKamion: just checked, logging in with the same key from another host worked11:08
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Tonio_Hobbsee: http://wiki.thekatapult.org.uk/Download11:08
Tonio_latest source tarball is more recent than our version ;)11:09
Tonio_I'm trying to upgrade11:09
HobbseeTonio_: wish you'd seen that about an hour ago.11:09
Hobbseeoh, wait, we'd need a UVF for it anyway.  damn11:09
Tonio_Hobbsee: yes, but if it closes 2 bugs that'll be okay ;)11:09
Hobbseetrue that11:10
=== Hobbsee wonders if reporting a bug to LP via email actually works.
=== Hobbsee decides to use a script, and just add to it. safer.
Kamionit does work11:16
Kamionyou have to sign it and provide an 'affects' line11:17
Hobbseeah, right11:18
Hobbseei'll remember that :)11:18
Tonio_Kamion: thanks for the tip, that'll help :)11:18
Kamionthere's documentation on the web somewhere for affects lines11:20
Hobbseetrue that11:20
Hobbseei just couldnt remember what it actually says11:20
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infinityIs it sad that I can identify source packages base on only seeing their Build-Depends lines?11:47
infinityI suspect this may be a sign that I've descended into complete insanity.11:48
=== dholbach hugs infinity
Hobbseeinfinity: you mean you werent insane before?11:49
infinityMithrandir: I can mark edgy as frozen.11:50
infinityHobbsee: I was, but perhaps only partially.11:50
Hobbseeinfinity: ahhh...right11:50
Mithrandirinfinity: please do so.11:50
Mithrandirinfinity: I wonder why you can and I can't, though.11:50
infinityMithrandir: Because I have a rubber duckie next to my name.. *cough*11:50
infinityMithrandir: Done.  You're frozen.11:51
=== Mithrandir feels the ice closing in.
Mithrandirinfinity: thanks.11:51
infinityI suspect that's something we might want the -release team to be able to do.11:52
Mithrandiryeah, it'd be kinda useful.11:52
infinityAnyhow, until they take away my duck again, I can do it for now.11:52
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=== infinity is pretty happy about getting that last LRM in under the wire.
mjg59Does that make it Ben's problem now?11:54
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dholbachinfinity: they took your duck away?11:55
infinitymjg59: In theory, LRM has been Ben's problem since edgy opened.  I just have a hard time keeping from meddling.11:55
infinitydholbach: They took it away, then gave it back when it was determined that I couldn't yet do my job without it.11:55
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dholbachinfinity: I hope you'll be able to keep it this time11:56
infinitydholbach: I don't really want it.  Being an LP admin means getting mail from all sorts of odd people with strange questions.  Doubly-so, because I'm the first name in the team list, due to being alphabetically challenged. :)11:56
infinitydholbach: But it's nice to be able to poke a few buttons that we, as a team, should be able to poke, but can't yet.11:57
Hobbseeinfinity: hah.  i've found that with being a team leader on LP too.  emailed about everything, and poked into actually doing something.11:57
dholbachUrg... ok, I understand :-)11:57
Hobbseeinfinity: try changing your name to Zaphod or something.11:57
seb128at what time is the meeting tomorrow? did we shifted or skipped the 7am meeting?11:58
Seveas@schedule paris11:59
Seveashmm, not on in here11:59
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Seveas@config channel plugins.webcal.url http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical11:59
dholbach"31 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team"11:59
Seveas@config channel plugins.webcal.filter #ubuntu-meeting12:00
seb128dholbach: the fridge is not really a reference to me :p12:00
Seveas@config channel plugins.webcal.dotopic12:00
seb128dholbach: and I would prefer 9am better ;)12:00
dholbachseb128: then ask sfllaw12:00
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seb128dholbach: that's why I ask on that chan ...12:00
seb128dholbach: not to be pointed to the fridge :p12:00
dholbachthere's not other "official" information atm and I can't remember a discussion about it12:01
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Seveasdholbach, according to the fridge it's hug day today12:02
dholbachsfllaw: ^^ did you announce it to the fridge, but didn't send an announce mail?12:03
seb128I think every wednesday is a hug day according to the fridge12:03
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Mithrandirogra: are you working on fixing edubuntu's size problem?12:10
MithrandirGloubiboulga: xubuntu alternate CDs are oversized, you're aware of that?12:11
ograi was hoping for Kamion to probably make the vim switch :)12:11
GloubiboulgaMithrandir, yep12:11
Mithrandirhe already did.12:11
ograapart from 6M on i386 i'm fine12:11
ograthen i need to check size again :)12:11
Kamionit's not active yet12:11
KamionMithrandir: can I upload ubuntu-meta to change that?12:12
MithrandirKamion: please do.12:12
Kamionneeds a priority change on the archive as well12:12
=== ogra merges seeds for consistency
Kamionogra: you'll probably want to drop vim from your ship12:12
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GloubiboulgaMithrandir, Jani has modified the seeds, could you rebuild the alternate isos?12:15
MithrandirGloubiboulga: the new seeds have been uploaded too?12:16
mvodoko: around?12:16
Kamioncan you wait for the ubuntu-minimal change?12:16
dokomvo: yes12:16
GloubiboulgaMithrandir, yes12:16
MithrandirKamion: if that "you" was me, sure.12:17
Kamionmostly to Gloubiboulga12:17
GloubiboulgaKamion, I can wait :)12:17
Mithrandir*sigh*; alternate ppc is still oversized.12:18
Kamionoh, hmm, it will take a little while12:19
MithrandirI'll need to rebuild ubuntu alternate too.12:19
Kamionneed to wait for the override change I just applied to vim-tiny to appear in a publisher run12:19
Kamionso go ahead and rebuild xubuntu if there are other things to be tested12:19
Kamionhmm, what to do about powerpc I wonder12:19
MithrandirKamion: old image, it looks like.  It includes *-ppds still12:20
MithrandirI'll do it after xubuntu alternate12:20
Kamionoh, what happened to this morning's build?12:20
MithrandirI disabled it. :-P12:20
Mithrandir(so much for checklists, sorry)12:20
Kamionok :)12:20
mvoMithrandir: permission to upload a fix to hplip? it fixes a upgrade issue and is only a two-line change in the rules file12:21
Kamionyou needed to rebuild alternate for partman-target anyway12:21
MithrandirKamion: oh, sure.12:21
Kamionwhich is on its way shortly12:21
Mithrandirmvo: what kind of upgrade issue?  As in, is it useful for knot?12:21
infinityMithrandir: BTW, don't bother building ia64/sparc images for knot-2. Not worth the pain, they won't be functional anyway (at least, not live images)12:21
mvoMithrandir: people upgrading from dapper->edgy will be bitten by it, its a postinst failure. I can put up a debdiff if you want12:22
Mithrandirmvo: yes, please.12:22
mvoMithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/hplip_0.9.11-2ubuntu5.debdiff (a similar change is in the latst debian package)12:25
Kamionok, I'm going to grossly fudge ubuntu-meta to speed things up12:25
Kamionpartman-target uploaded12:25
MithrandirKamion: thanks.12:25
Mithrandirmvo: ok, upload away.12:26
mvoMithrandir: thanks12:26
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Gloubiboulgahum, xubuntu alternate isos still have the same size12:36
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seb128Mithrandir: is that ok to upload a nautilus with a Conflicts version updated to fix bug #56985 ?12:52
UbugtuMalone bug 56985 in nautilus "nautilus-data missing Replaces: nautilus" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5698512:52
Mithrandirseb128: no other changes?  Go ahead.12:53
seb128nop, no other change12:53
seb128ok, thank you12:53
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janimoGloubiboulga: hi12:55
Kamionseb128: argh, why conflicts?12:55
Kamionseb128: if a file moves, you should use Replaces12:56
janimoGloubiboulga: I wonder what grew so much since dapper in the alternates12:56
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KamionConflicts makes upgrades unnecessarily hard for the package management tools12:56
janimoGloubiboulga: I'd prefer keeping full vim if we can though12:56
seb128Kamion: I do use some Replaces, some Debian guys use Conflicts, in that case the change come from Debian I just updated the version12:56
Kamioncan you get that changed in Debian please?12:57
seb128Kamion: ok, will do12:57
seb128Mithrandir: ok to update Replaces version for gnome-menus (bug #56984)01:01
UbugtuMalone bug 56984 in gnome-menus "python-gmenu package missing "Replaces: gnome-menus"" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5698401:01
Mithrandirseb128: ok.  Do you have many more similar replaces/conflicts bugs?01:02
seb128Mithrandir: no, that was only nautilus and gnome-menus01:02
Mithrandirseb128: I'm fine with a few of them, but I'd really like us not to end up with having to rebuild half of gnome.01:02
Mithrandirseb128: ok, that's fine then. :-)01:02
seb128yeah, sure01:02
seb128thank you ;)01:02
seb128rebuild of GNOME is for next week :p01:03
seb128(GNOME 2.16.0 tarballs on monday)01:03
Gloubiboulgajanimo, ok for vim, I guess that we can remove a bunch of language packs01:03
Kamionjanimo: moving from vim to vim-tiny in minimal was a change that affected all derivatives, btw01:04
Mithrandirseb128: that's fine since we'll be a bit away from a knot at that time.01:04
Kamionjanimo: if you want to keep vim in your default installation, that would need to be done by adding it to your desktop01:04
seb128anyway lunch time for now, bbl01:04
MithrandirGloubiboulga: oh, xubuntu built a bit of time ago.01:04
janimoKamion: ok thanks01:04
GloubiboulgaMithrandir, yep I've seen this, thanks01:04
MithrandirI'll do a ubuntu build now to make sure ppc is fine, size-wise.01:04
GloubiboulgaMithrandir, I'll certainly poke you later for an other build (size issues again)01:05
MithrandirGloubiboulga: sure.01:05
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janimoKamion: is this correct syntax in seeds * language-support-${Languages} [i386] 01:11
janimoI am trying to move all but English language supports only to i386 for now01:11
Kamionjanimo: yes, that's right01:12
janimoKamion: so what's in ship goes to the alternate CD and live seed to the desktop. These are the two places where Languages appear. This is what I assumed so far but want to make sure01:13
Kamionjanimo: right01:14
KamionI should write up a README at some point01:14
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janimook, thanks I wasn't sure if the relatively recent ship-live changed what I knew in dapper01:16
Kamionpackages in ship-live end up on the desktop CD as .debs, rather than being installed in the live filesystem01:17
Kamionso you get /casper/filesystem.squashfs containing boot+minimal+standard+desktop+live, and /dists/ and /pool/ containing ship-live01:17
SeveasKamion, 'added vim-tiny to...' -- vim conflicts with vim-tiny, so installing vim whill remove ubuntu-minimal, right?01:18
KamionSeveas: vim Conflicts: vim-tiny (<< 1:6.4-001+3)01:19
KamionSeveas: current vim-tiny is 1:7.0-035+1ubuntu201:19
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janimoKamion: I wonder if  debs on the liveCD copuld be used to install xubuntu-at- packages we talked about yesterday?01:23
janimowhat is that ship-live repo used for now?01:23
Kamionjanimo: it's possible, but would require a certain amount of head-scratching in ubiquity. :-)01:24
Kamionjanimo: basically to make stuff like build-essential available01:24
janimoKamion: to make sure they don't get installed on the disk you mean?01:24
Kamionand various network access packages01:24
Kamionjanimo: no, just to do the installation at all01:24
Kamionit's all just glue, nothing massively complicated, but would need to be done ...01:25
janimoI'll have to take a look I guess if there is no other solution which lets gnome AT tools be installed on the CD but only optional on the final install01:26
Kamionthe other solution is live-cd-stacked-filesystems, as I said yesterday01:26
Kamionhaving the accessibility packages be a layer stacked just above the desktop01:27
Kamionso ubiquity could choose to copy just the desktop bit or desktop+accessibility01:27
Kamionyet another alternative is just teaching ubiquity to manually remove the AT packages01:27
janimoright. Is that done already? Is it to be used by ubiquity for something else?01:27
janimoright I was thinking of the manual removal as it happens with languages01:27
Kamionit's to be used by ubiquity in place of its current remove-lots-of-packages hacks; I think it's mostly done01:27
elmoKamion: ehm, dude01:28
elmoKamion: cdimage is up to 479GB01:28
elmopls to be reigning it in01:28
janimoGloubiboulga: committed modified seeds with only En on amd64 and ppc01:28
Kamionelmo: ok, I'll have a look. you mean the bit that's mirrored?01:28
janimobut I'd like to wait a bit until I upload x-system-tools before a respin ok?01:29
elmoKamion: yes01:29
KamionI'll just nuke the point-release dapper builds01:29
Gloubiboulgajanimo, ok01:30
janimoGloubiboulga: did you ./update from xubutu-meta for the upload?01:30
infinityKamion: Not sure we can do that, since it gives us some undefined behaviour.01:31
Kamioninfinity: ?01:31
janimoI wonder why my subsequent upload of today deleted the two xfce plugins for HPPA, and they were ok when you uploaded01:31
infinityKamion: live-cd-stacked-filsystem assumes a linear 1+2+3 growth in filesystem stacking.01:31
Kamioninfinity: I'm not sure what that means01:31
infinityKamion: So, if we're doing base+desktop+live+live-dvd, where does live-at fit?01:31
Kamioninfinity: base+desktop+live-at+live+live-dvd01:32
infinityKamion: (We're overlaying a new dpkg status file each time, so we can't really do anything nonlinear)01:32
Kamionright, seems pretty linear to me though01:32
Gloubiboulgajanimo, I didn't 01:32
infinityKamion: Okay, so live-at will always be there, check.  Then that's fine.01:32
janimoGloubiboulga: you wrote the changelog by hand?01:32
infinityKamion: I wasn't really following the above well enough to catch that, I guess.01:32
Kamionelmo: down to 376GB - is there anywhere else I can put stuff like the archival copy of dapper.0?01:33
Gloubiboulgajanimo, yes, I need to use the tools wa have next times ;)01:33
janimoGloubiboulga: ok :). So after you commit to the seeds, just run ./update from the most recent xubuntu-meta, and it will generate the new version with automated changelog01:34
elmoKamion: public or for backup/storage?01:34
Kamionelmo: dapper.0 probably still ought to be public01:34
Kamionelmo: you could backup old-releases/{warty,.pool/warty*} non-publicly now, though01:35
Kamionthat's only 2.3GB though01:35
Kamionyou know, I'm just going to stop keeping two DVD builds01:37
elmoKamion: we could put them on hutte I guess - got any suggestions for a hostname?01:37
Kamionelmo: old-releases.ubuntu.com?01:37
elmoI'll setup an RT ticket - where should we copy the stuff from?01:38
Kamionfor warty or dapper?01:38
Kamionelmo: /srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/www/full/{,ports/,kubuntu/,edubuntu/,xubuntu/}dapper/release/01:41
elmothat's old releases?01:41
Kamionthat's dapper.001:41
Kamionexcept make that /srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/www/full/{,ports/,kubuntu/,edubuntu/,xubuntu/}releases/dapper/release/01:41
elmohmm, ok01:42
Kamionthe archival copies of warty and hoary are in /srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/www/full/old-releases/01:42
KamionI guess all of that can be moved01:42
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lifelessinfinity: - has evms changed in the dapper at all ?01:42
lifelessinfinity: I have a sick home server, I powered it off by mistake, but its claiming 01:43
lifelessdevice-mapper: unknown target type01:43
Mithrandirlifeless: with a stock kernel?01:43
infinitylifeless: Not that I know of...01:43
lifelessMithrandir: yes, I'm booting off a 6.06lts livecd right now, and evmsn sees the volumes, bu refuses to activate with that error01:44
lifelessdoing evms_activate in busybox - when it fails to boot off hard disk - gives the same spew01:44
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lifelessI'm trying to find the bug I filed in launchpad that was related to this - 01:45
lifelesswhen evms was broken during the dapper development cycle01:45
lifelessahem, faq-like question from moi:01:52
lifelessthe 'volume activation' entry there matches my symptoms. 01:52
lifeless - do we have that patch installed ? (yes, I know I should look myself, but my network access is rather curtailed with my main machine down)01:53
Mithrandiryes, we have always have had that applied01:54
RiddellKamion: ubiquity fails on today's kubuntu CD https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/5819901:55
UbugtuMalone bug 58199 in ubiquity "Fails at apt-setup on kubuntu 20060830" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  01:55
Kamionthanks, I'll check; I think that's a dupe01:57
mvoKamion: I will need some files on a ubuntu-alternative CD for the cdrom-dist-upgrades spec. what is the best way to learn more aobut the CD building and how I can integrate my stuff?01:58
Kamionmvo: grab http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/debian-cd/ubuntu/, or just file a bug on /products/ubuntu-cdimage01:58
Kamionmvo: how much space are we talking about here?01:59
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mvoKamion: about 1,6mb (1,4 of this are mo files)02:00
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SimiraRiddell: do you know if anything is done with kmail/kontact? they're setting new records of number of crashes at work today02:01
mvoKamion: so if we only do the supported languages it should be no more than ~400k02:01
RiddellSimira: I'm not sure what you're asking02:04
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KamionRiddell: found the problem, fixing02:08
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elmoKamion: any chance you could move everything you want on old-releases to a new subdir of www/ ?02:14
elmoKamion: we could do it if you like, of course, but it seems safer/saner if you guys do02:15
lifelessMithrandir: are you running evms ?02:18
lifelessMithrandir: can you do 'dmsetup targets' and show me the output ?02:18
Kamionelmo: sure, I'll do so once I've finished with this ubiquity bugfix02:21
SimiraRiddell: do you know anything about kmail/kontact bugs and how fast they are being fixed? kmail seems to crash a lot02:21
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sfllawdholbach: The ones on fridge are pre-scheduled.  Last week's fell in between two of them.02:22
RiddellSimira: I don't know, I'd guess developmen will be focusing on kde 402:22
mvoKamion: can we use "CDROM_ROOT/upgrade/" as the place for the dist-upgrader? or is that not-so-good because it was used in older debian releases to put packages in that needed upgrading before the install?02:22
elmoKamion: thanks02:23
Kamionmvo: wouldn't it be better to put it in the same relative place as it is in the archive? so /dists/$DIST/main/upgrader-$ARCH/ or whatever it is02:23
lifelessinfinity: if you are still up, diagnosis is that dmsetup is missing some targets02:23
lifelesshttp://rafb.net/paste/results/hm6hdZ52.html shows what it should look like for me, and the #evms folk are saying 'kernel patches affect this'02:24
infinitylifeless: Fun.  Of course, I know pretty much nothing about evms.  The fact that I've uploaded it a few times means nothing. :)02:24
dokoKamion: I'd like to upload OOo 2.0.4rc1, it shouldn't affect the knot-cd unless somebody processes the new binaries in NEW (and if all builds succeed, then it could be a candidate for knot-2 as well)02:24
infinitylifeless: I can confirm the lack of targets on edgy, though.02:25
Kamiondoko: -> Mithrandir, but I'm pretty sure the answer will be "please hold off until after knot-2"02:25
lifelessthats apparently not on in our kernel config anymore02:25
lifelessand thats what I need02:25
infinitydoko: I'd rather not have the buildds stuffed up while we're trying to do the release, especially since we only have one powerpc buildd.02:25
Mithrandirdoko: please hold it off until we're post-knot-2.02:25
infinitylifeless: Perhaps best to take it up with BenC then, either on IC< or in a bug report.02:26
Mithrandirlifeless: 02:26
Mithrandir: tfheen@thosu ~ > sudo dmsetup targets02:26
Mithrandirstriped          v1.0.202:26
Mithrandirlinear           v1.0.102:26
Mithrandirerror            v1.0.102:26
lifelessinfinity: well, I have no mail etc until I unfuck this02:26
lifelessinfinity: but I appreciate its really in his court02:26
dokoKamion, Mithrandir: yeah, and then I have to hold off for feature freeze ... you know that -base and the wizards are currently broken?02:26
infinitydoko: Blocking the powerpc buildd for the next 12 hours just isn't an option right now. :/02:27
infinitydoko: If you upload right after knot-2, we'll all be much happier.02:27
Kamionthere is a week between knot-2 and feature freeze02:27
Kamionso no, you won't have to hold off02:27
Mithrandirdoko: unless something goes wrong, you should be able to upload late tomorrow or Friday.  That leaves you a fair bit of time.02:28
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jsgotangcodoko: the SoC evaluations should be in already right? i was away for a few days....02:36
dokojsgotangco: yes02:36
jsgotangcook sorry just catching up now...and google's app gives me server errors02:37
jsgotangcoargghh these server errors suck02:38
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iGamai have 1 question02:48
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SimiraiGama: ask on #ubuntu02:48
iGamawhat do i have do to , so submit a packet proposol?02:48
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iGamaSimira its not that kind of help :p02:49
iGamapackage pros.02:49
WaterSevenUbiGama, you are talking about the OO-PT thing? 02:49
iGamaalso that02:49
WaterSevenUbSimira, the thing is that currently there is available openoffice-pt_PT and dictionaries for it, as well as many updates on aspell-pt and ispell-pt.... 02:50
iGamabut in generall ways, what do i have do to, to submit a package?02:50
WaterSevenUbSimiria, that we would like to see in Edgy.02:50
SimiraWaterSevenUb: uh... wrong nickname?02:50
iGamaSimira so, in witch channel can we find the answer?02:51
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SimiraiGama: #ubuntu-motu, maybe?02:51
pygijdub, poke?02:51
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dholbachsfllaw: what does that mean?03:00
sfllawIt means that I forgot about this one.03:01
sfllawIt thought it was next week.03:01
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lifelessanyone know what TZ benc is operating on ?03:04
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StevenKlifeless: -403:04
StevenKlifeless: As the changelog for the kernel would have told you.03:04
lifelessthats where he *lives*, not what hes operating on.03:05
StevenKBah, semantics. :-P03:05
lifelessand given that the kernel changelog also fails to mention 'fuck evm by removing BBR support', its not really a useful hint to give me03:05
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neuralisinfinity: poke me when you're around03:13
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infinityneuralis: I'm vaguely aroundish.03:14
lifelessis there a dead chicken to build just -one- of our brazjillion kernel targets ?03:14
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Mithrandirlifeless: debian/rules binary flavours=amd64-k8, I think03:16
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zul binary-debs03:21
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sivanghmm, something is changed in when apt updates the cache.. it adds something like "GB-Translation" to the lines.. Is that part of a new specification that got implemented ?03:23
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mvo_sivang: that are the translated package descriptions03:25
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jdonginfinity: buildd's not finding packages that exist :(03:28
jdongit was just under dependency wait for libifp-dev, which is definitely in dapper universe03:28
infinityjdong: Err, what?03:28
infinityjdong: That's needs-build.03:28
jdongit was depwait a second ago03:28
jdongI swear03:28
infinityjdong: How many seconds? :)03:29
jdong3 seconds ago, I swear :)03:29
infinityjdong: Anyhow, I assume that means that libifp-dev was recently published or something.03:29
azeemjdong: always make screenshots before you tell infinity03:29
infinityOr, wait.  You said that libifp-dev is in universe?03:29
infinityjdong: Let me guess, amarok is in main?03:29
infinityThat would do it, then.03:29
infinitymain doesn't build against universe.03:29
jdongyes, it is :(03:29
slomojanimo: evince-gtk FTBFS... could you take a look at it? or is it not used anymore by xfce?03:30
janimoslomo: I'll take a look thanks. I was planning to update it to newer evince anyway03:30
slomojanimo: thanks :)03:31
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janimoslomo: thanks for moving it to dbus-90 :)03:31
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slomojanimo: only a rebuild ;) unfortunately i tested only the real evince... looks like evince-gtk may need some patches for a newer djvu or something03:32
janimoslomo: ok, I'll check it out.03:32
sivangmvo_: cool03:33
janimoMithrandir: all uploads frozen or onlyu those that go to the ubuntu cd?03:33
ograjanimo, usually main 03:33
Mithrandirjanimo: main is frozen.  Getting exceptions for stuff which doesn't go on the CD is obviously easier than for stuff which goes on the CD.03:33
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janimoMithrandir: I mean main and not ubuntu CD (but xubuntu)03:34
janimoit was usually less frozen than the main CD while that built03:34
Mithrandirjanimo: if you ask for xubuntu-specific exceptions, I can't see me not granting them, no, but you might want to have your changes eyeballed for sanity anyway?03:35
janimoMithrandir: ok, thanks.I'll point to the log when I am done.03:35
imbrandonsiretart: ping03:40
imbrandoninfinity: the libifp is in main in edgy, we cant promote it in a published distro for the backport huh ? we'll need a source change i'm guessing03:41
jdonginfinity: or allow backports to build against all sections? :P03:41
infinityimbrandon: Changing components in a published distro is definitely a no-no.03:42
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imbrandonwell see thats the problem, what about allowing the -backports to build against all sections03:42
imbrandon[08:40]  <Riddell> jdong: it seems like a bug in the backports implementation to me, this sort of thing can not be too uncommon03:42
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infinityAllowing backports to break component expectations may be acceptable, if we're also making it clear that we don't support backport in any way, shape, or form.03:42
infinitySince, then, sections don't matter for backports.03:42
infinity(Except for the non-free/free distinction)03:42
imbrandoninfinity: yea i think thats clear since its not enabled by default either03:42
imbrandonits a choice to use it03:43
infinityI'll have to bring it up with the rest of the archive team.  It's not a policy decisoin I'll make in a vacuum.03:43
infinityBut since we don't provide any commercial support for backports, I suspect the main/universe distinction is pointless anyway.03:43
jdongit's pretty clearly stated already that backports is not a supported repo03:43
imbrandonnot a problem, just curious an eta ? as in will it be a meeting agenda or you just gonna poke them ?03:43
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KamionI'm not sure there's actually anything wrong with changing components in backports03:44
infinityimbrandon: I'll just bring it up with my team when we're not busy trying to do a Knot release.03:44
Kamionbut I don't know whether Soyuz deals with that gracefully03:44
imbrandoninfinity: definately ;)03:44
infinityKamion: No, but there's something wrong with chanigng components of an already-published non-backport library to allow a backport to build. :)03:44
Kamionoh, non-backport? right03:44
imbrandoninfinity: yea i was just sigesting that as a no-no ;)03:45
imbrandone/g we COULDENT do that soo what COULD we do kinda thing03:45
infinityKamion: Hence why I figure it might make more sense to just view backports itself as universe/multiverse free-for-all, and drop the main/resitrcted distinction entirely, since backports aren't supported, hence de-facto not "main".03:45
jdongif we backported libifp-dev to dapper, would it magically turn buildable?03:45
=== jdong smacks himself for such a reckless idea
imbrandonjdong: no03:45
infinityjdong: Only if we popped it in main.  But don't do that.03:46
imbrandont dosent cahnge the component 03:46
infinityjdong: Not much point in backporting anything if we backport all the libraries too.  Then you just have.. Edgy.03:46
imbrandonexactly ;)03:46
jdongwell, I'm gonna grab breakfast, you guys enjoy hashing this out :)03:47
imbrandoninfinity: so ping you in ~36+ hours and ask again ( hince after knot publish )03:47
elmoI'd pay someone $$$ to "fix" ubuntu-server so nano isn't even installed03:48
infinityKamion: Anyhow, I don't know if soyuz does per-pocket overrides, but I doubt it's worth the effort.  I can just mangle the ogre setup on the -backports chroots to always build against main+universe (for free sources) and main+universe+multiverse+restricted (for non-free sources), and just hand-wave the problem away.03:48
imbrandonelmo: nooooo03:48
infinityelmo: Paypal adconrad@0c3.net.03:49
Hobbseeelmo: sounds good :)  who uses nano anyway :)03:49
=== Hobbsee runs sudo update-alternatives --config editor on imbrandon's machine again
imbrandonHobbsee: i'll sooo disable ssh 03:49
infinityThey do?03:49
infinityI despise it.03:50
jdongwhat newbie editor would you suggest then?03:50
infinityYou don't want to know.03:50
jdongI'm not teaching someone how to use vi over the phone :(03:50
infinityWell, you might want o know, but if I tell you, elmo will hit me.03:50
imbrandonkwrite ;)03:50
Hobbseeinfinity: well tell elmo to cover his ears03:50
jdongthe last time I did that, swear words came out03:50
infinityelmo: Don't look.03:50
=== Hobbsee watches elmo look
infinityjdong: I use "ae" as a lightweight newbie editor.03:50
Hobbseeimbrandon: pretty hard for me to do anything that way03:50
infinity(And, no, it's not in the archive, it's not been in Debian since potato)03:51
imbrandonHobbsee: not realy you can tunnel X over ssh , i just havent told you how yet ;)03:51
Hobbseeimbrandon: i've seen it before.  in fact, i've done it before.  it's too damned slow though.03:51
Hobbseeimbrandon: i had ajmitch and StevenK over here, remember?03:51
imbrandonhehe *couch*nx*cough*03:51
=== Hobbsee discovered lots of evil stuff from that
imbrandonnx over ssh can go fast on a 56k ;) but thats beside the point when you only have console 03:52
imbrandonand considering nx isnt in the archives either03:53
Mithrandirnx is stuffed with crack03:53
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janimodholbach: hi, is g-s-t 2.15 supposed to be less buggy than 2.14 was?03:58
janimoI get weird errors and want to make sure it's not my system that is broken03:58
dholbachjanimo: it uses new infrastructure03:58
janimothat's an elusive answer ;)03:58
dholbachjanimo: make sure you file a bug or ask garnacho on #gst on irc.gimp.net03:58
dholbachthat's an answer that indicates that it might be due to new infrastructure :)03:59
janimoI was just generally asking fro you rexperience is it working?03:59
seb128janimo: new infrastructure is likely to bring new bugs too03:59
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janimosince all tools fail but differently03:59
seb128janimo: not that good but ganarcho is working on it this week03:59
janimogood part is he reduced a few gnome dependencies in the code, my gtk-only patch is a lot smaller04:00
janimoI'll talk to him about this on #gst.04:01
janimoMithrandir: the upload exception I asked for was for xubuntu-system-tools. It's not a simple diff, but a new orig.tar.gz as well. I resynced with gnome-system-tools04:02
Mithrandirjanimo: if you think it's good to have it in xubuntu knot-2, feel free to upload it.04:02
janimowith the current version it won't start at all, with the new upload it starts and works as correcly as g-s-t04:02
Mithrandirsounds like progress to me. :-)04:03
janimoMithrandir: thanks04:03
janimoyes, it closes one PL bug, possibly opens the gate a few new ones :)04:03
=== janimo notices that the gst channel on gimp.net is mostly garnacho + the ubuntu desktop team :)
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dholbachjanimo: they don't bite... often04:05
ivoksdoes anyone knows what's the size of whole archive?04:07
ivoksi'm buying new disks, so i'm thinking about mirroring it04:07
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infinitylp_archive@drescher:/srv/launchpad.net/ubuntu-archive/ubuntu$ du --max-depth 0   04:08
infinity206368248       .04:08
infinityThat big.04:08
infinityAnd growing.04:08
jdong_where's the emacs joke when you need it :(04:08
infinityI'd suggest 4x300GB drives in a 900GB RAID-5 would be the way to go.04:08
=== jdong_ notes bddebian isn't here
infinityOr, if you're pressed to options, 2x500 in a RAID-1 should give room for a while.04:09
elmoinfinity: that's including non release architectures04:09
infinitys/to options/for options/04:09
elmoit's about 160GB without04:09
infinityelmo: Fair point, but we all love those arches, don't we? :)04:09
ivoksi was thinking about 320GB in RAID104:09
infinityivoks: Should be room for a while, as long as you're not mirroring a mess of other stuff too.04:10
infinityivoks: I just always overpurchase, cause disk space goes really.. Fast.04:10
ivoksinfinity: i'll leave it at this for a while04:10
ivoksinfinity: later i'll buy new disks and new controler :/04:10
infinityAnd overpurchasing on disk is cheap these days anyway.04:10
ivoksit is04:11
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infinityelmo: When slomo uploads 50 packages at once, I miss ross.  Can we either get it back, or remove slomo from the keyring?  I'm open to either option.04:12
infinity(Yes, I realise I can do the latter myself)04:12
tsengif you remove slomo I'll have to actually upload things04:13
tsengI'm against this04:13
slomoinfinity: hm? you said it would be ok to upload now04:13
infinityslomo: Yes, I did, and it is.  I'm just being whiney. :)04:14
elmoinfinity: znarl's moving powerpcs around now to get you ross back04:14
Hobbseeinfinity: haha.04:14
infinityelmo: Oh, wow.  Many fluttering hearts for Znarl.04:14
=== slomo hugs infinity
Hobbseeinfinity: if it's not him uploading things, it's me requesting syncs.  you cant win.04:14
infinityman, is there anything that ISN'T linked against dbus anymore?04:15
tsenginfinity: gnucash!04:16
infinityI'm just failing to understand why half this stuff cares about IPC in the first place.04:16
tsengyears stuck at gtk+ 1.2, now its linked to dbus04:16
slomoinfinity: in a few years dbus will be integrated in glibc ;)04:16
tsenginfinity: alot of people use it simply to check for existing instances on startup04:17
RiddellMithrandir, Kamion: kubuntu alternate CD i386 installs fine, although my apostrophy key seems to have become a forward tick/acute accent key04:17
tsenginfinity: which is nice, but questionable if its worth the pain of current dbus04:17
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infinitytseng: That's vile.04:17
tsengdbus is *almost* stable anyway04:17
tsenghopefully edgy+1 will not suffer such pains04:17
slomoinfinity, tseng: apart from that libdbus is now guarantueed to be API/ABI stable for 1.0 (unfortunately not the bindings)04:18
tsengthe bindings arent that widely used04:18
infinitytseng: I suspect that very few free software developers have done enough win32 development to learn from mistakes there, because it seems people used DDE as the same hammer for the same sort of nails on windows, and almost always with poor results in the end.04:19
infinitytseng: Oh well.  I'll get over it, I suppose.04:19
KamionRiddell: I think there might be something wrong with kbd-choos4r04:20
mvo_Kamion: dists/edgy/dist-upgrader/binary-all/ is fine as  a path on the cdrom for me as well, whatever you prefer04:20
tsenginfinity: "to dbus people, everything seems like a dbus problem" -- Keybuk 04:20
ograKamion, did i understand you right yesterday, there is no metapackage update needed for the minimal change ?04:20
Kamionogra: not for you, no04:20
Kamionubuntu-minimal needs to change, but there is no edubuntu-minimal04:21
ograright, thats how i understood it04:21
tsenginfinity: its the underpinnings of great leaps forward like hal, so I can't cry about it at night04:21
ograits just that the update script still makes the change which is a bit irritating :)04:21
Kamionogra: try setting 'output_seeds: desktop live' in update.cfg04:22
Kamionand then rm minimal* standard*04:22
=== infinity goes to make grilled chese sandwiches while adare churns away at slomo's uploads.
Keybuktseng: that wasn't a --Keybuk04:27
=== ogra tries to get a minimal dapper install going on a p133 with 64M
tsengKeybuk: pretty sure of it04:28
tsengKeybuk: unless you've borrowed it04:28
Keybuktseng: I quote it, but the quote is Erik Troan04:28
tsengoh, rpath04:28
Keybukwhen discussing upstart, he asked whether it was built using dbus04:29
KeybukI had to admit that I had no plans to do that04:29
Keybukwhich he considered a good thing04:29
ograhow would that work ? 04:29
tsengogra: dbus-activation04:29
ograincorporating dbus code into init ? 04:29
Keybukogra: init=/sbin/dbus04:29
Keybukmake it register everything as a service04:29
Keybukto start/stop something, you'd send it a message04:30
ograi thought you need to reboot if you change dbus services :P04:30
tsengonly upgrading dbus04:30
Keybukfor this, and other nightmare scenarious, read Seth's/Fedora's "SystemServices" proposal04:30
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thomKeybuk: ye gods fedora are actually talking about that?04:34
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infinitythom: I't my experience (and I'm very grateful for it) that what Fedora contemplates and what they implement rarely relate.04:36
Keybukthom: no, I think they've stopped04:36
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neuralisKeybuk: who in the fedora camp has been discussing upstart with you?04:37
HobbseeKeybuk: https://launchpad.net/bugs/57478 is done now, FYI.  i thought i'd approved that a while ago.  feel free to do it with the next round of syncs.04:37
UbugtuMalone bug 57478 in lyx "Please sync xdg-utils and lyx-common from Debian" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  04:37
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cbx33hi guys04:39
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cbx33got a scenario to run past you.  working on something in edubuntu that requires me to run a an app as a nother user, who is not root, this is a graphical app that needs to run in my current session, I can be root if necessary...gksudo doesn't work04:40
cbx33as the user doesn't have access to my xsession04:40
cbx33and I want to keep it that way04:40
thomKeybuk: that's pretty scary04:40
cbx33I tried sux.....which worked great....just not in an LTSP environment04:40
cbx33anyone got any better suggestions?04:41
cbx33the only one we came up with was sshkeys04:41
cbx33so i plant my public key in the users authoirsed keys04:41
cbx33and that way I can run04:41
cbx33ssh -X to the user@localhost04:41
cbx33can anyone see a better solution?04:41
MithrandirRiddell: ok.  I guess you need new livefs-es and such and want to wait a little bit for the live one, though.04:42
infinityMithrandir: The dbus qorld rebuild is still ongoing, and affect kubuntu as well.04:43
Keybukneuralis: we haven't quite reached discussion yet04:43
Mithrandircbx33: xhost +SI:localuser:$username ?04:43
RiddellMithrandir: live was working too except for the issue I reported to kamion04:43
MithrandirRiddell: and the dbus rebuild, I presume.04:43
cbx33Mithrandir, lemme try04:43
Keybukneuralis: Bill Nottingham, Jeremy Katz, Jesse Keating, "Rahul" and "Harald" are in the Cc list04:43
RiddellMithrandir: yes04:44
cbx33Mithrandir, it would be preferable for the user not to have access to my X session04:44
RiddellKamion: how do I spot if the apt-setup fix is in?04:45
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cbx33do you think that is the only way to go....?04:45
Mithrandircbx33: well, you're really allowing the user access to your X session when you run an X based program as that user anyway.04:45
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cbx33well true04:46
infinitycbx33: ssh -X is still allowing a user access to your session.04:46
cbx33so are you suggesting add it run the app, then when the app closes take it away again?04:46
cbx33infinity, again true04:46
cbx33is vuntz around?04:46
Mithrandircbx33: yeah, that'd be useful.04:47
infinitycbx33: You'd need to sandbox the app completely (say, in a VNC session, or other such insanity) to prevent that.04:47
cbx33infinity, which is too much for this particular implementation04:47
cbx33it's pessulus you see04:47
Mithrandircbx33: I guess one could implement a one-shot-cookie access control, but it wouldn't really help you much.04:47
Mithrandirinfinity: Xnest (or at least Xephyr) would work by itself.04:48
Mithrandir(I'm less sure about Xnest than Xephyr, tbh)04:48
infinityMithrandir: I think xnest is safe, yeah.  Not positive.04:48
cbx33basically it's for the Student Control Panel software04:48
cbx33i need to run pessulus as the user themself....04:48
infinityMithrandir: I actually had "vnc or xnest" in my initial response, and backspaced over it cause I wasn't 100% sure. :)04:48
cbx33because that way it will edit their own settings 04:49
cbx33if you get my meaning04:49
=== Keybuk tries to work out why SIOCGIFCONF doesn't do what he expects
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KamionRiddell: look for the relevant versions of apt-setup or ubiquity in .list (alternate) or .manifest (desktop)04:51
vuntzcbx33: pong04:53
cbx33hi vuntz 04:53
cbx33I'm currently implementing the Student Control Panel spec04:53
cbx33and pygi mentioned you wrote pessulus?04:53
cbx33which is on the list of things to implement :p04:53
cbx33well. if you are able to scroll up ^^04:54
cbx33I need to run pessulus as a specific user04:54
cbx33I wondered if you knew a way to do that04:54
cbx33I've been using sux to achieve it...but for edubuntu that doesn't work on LTSP04:55
cbx33any ideas?04:55
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ograwell, actually you want to run pessulus and apply the lockdown of gconf keys to a specific user ;)04:56
cbx33well true04:56
vuntzcbx33: does the specific user have specific gconf sources?04:57
ograthere is probably a way where you dont need to run it as this user04:57
ogravuntz, yes04:57
cbx33ogra, true....I was just saying what I had tried thus far04:57
ograits a gnome multiuser setup04:57
vuntzogra: didn't we already have this discussion?04:57
=== vuntz has some memories of such as discussion :-)
ogradunno, did we ? 04:57
ograi know jdub discussed it in person with me in paris04:57
cbx33vuntz, did yo have a solution?04:57
ograand he said there is an opportunity to do it04:57
vuntziirc, I proposed to add a command line argument to pessulus to specify the gconf sources to use04:58
cbx33vuntz, how much work is that :p04:58
vuntzcbx33: shouldn't be too hard04:58
vuntzassuming you only want to change the mandatory source, it should be about 10 lines of python04:58
cbx33vuntz, possible before FF?04:59
jdong_so will edgy cd's start working soon?04:59
cbx33basically in SCP i have a context menu, so an admin can right clik on a username and hit lockdown04:59
vuntzcbx33: when is the freeze?04:59
cbx33which brings up pessulus for that user04:59
cbx33sep 9???05:00
cbx33am i right or wrong here?05:00
vuntzlots of time to do it, then :-)05:00
cbx33is it something yo uhave time to do05:00
cbx33or do you want me to....try ?!05:00
cbx33and send you a patch?05:01
vuntzcbx33: you should really do it :-)05:01
cbx33oh joy05:01
vuntzlook for GCONF_MANDATORY_SOURCE in pessulus05:01
cbx33vuntz, ok05:01
vuntzcbx33: replace it by a variable where it makes sense05:01
vuntzand adds some command line parsing magic in main.py05:02
cbx33what are you envisaging for the command line parameter?05:02
vuntz(if you could use GOption for the command line parsing, there's a bonus)05:02
cbx33the actual path of the source05:02
cbx33or the username ?05:02
vuntzcbx33: the path05:02
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cbx33vuntz, bearing in mind I'm still a python n00b !05:02
vuntzcbx33: pessulus is good to learn :-)05:03
vuntz(it was my first python project)05:03
cbx33gISOMount was mine05:03
cbx33it's in edgy05:03
vuntzcbx33: feel free to ping me if you need some help05:03
cbx33thank you05:04
cbx33I'll take a look now05:04
cbx33I have about 2 hours05:04
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cbx33do you have a devel branch somewhere?05:05
cbx33on LP?05:05
vuntzcbx33: GNOME cvs05:05
cbx33ah ok05:05
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ograwow, i managed to get edubuntu to 700MB on the spot ...05:34
=== mvo cheers to ogra
ograbut installing dapper on a P133 with 64M is really no fun ...05:36
dholbachedgy will be better ;)05:36
infinityIt will be?05:36
infinityAre we shipping edgy with extra RAM in the CD sleeve?05:37
ograi managed to manually bootstrap it from the recue mode (instaler just dies if it needs to validate packages ) but now i cant install the kernel 05:37
dholbachI'm trying to lift the morale :)05:37
infinityIt's never been my experience that new versions of operating systems consumer fewew resources. :)05:37
Kamiondapper can install in less RAM than breezy, actually05:38
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Kamionbut that's mostly just because I tweaked the lowmem limits. :)05:38
infinity(Well, not entirely true.  I found Linux 2.4->2.6 to actually increase in speed on older hardware, with similar configurations... But when you toss an upgraded desktop environment around that, you lost the benefit)05:38
mvoogra: it would certainly help you would not run the install in a gnome-terminal ;)05:38
Kamionand of course that's only for the alternate CD05:39
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ogramvo, ah, right, you mean i shouldnt use the desktop CD ?05:39
Kamion! don't use the desktop CD to install in 64M05:39
bddebianHowdy folks05:39
mvoogra: exactly :P05:39
ograKamion, haha05:39
janimoogra: this reminds me: what happened with the xfce edubuntu spec? No space on CD?05:39
infinityKamion: Is smarenka still working on lowmem stuff in d-i during the etch cycle, or did he give up the fight after sarge released?05:39
Kamionthe alternate CD should be able to handle down to 32M05:39
ograKamion, as if that woud even boot :)05:40
Kamioninfinity: don't know - I think he's done the odd bit, not sure05:40
Keybukjanimo: yeah, edubuntu *really* needs a third desktop environment on its CDs :p05:40
ograjanimo, i'm happy i just got them down to exactly 700M05:40
ograKeybuk, well, there is a huge user demand for xfce in low end ltsp setups05:40
infinityogra: Exactly, to the last byte?05:41
janimoKeybuk: it doesn't but deployment may really need on DE that allows them to server twice as many thin clients from the same server05:41
infinityogra: Cause that'll surely explode on you after this publisher run, then.  No one can be that lucky. :)05:41
ograi didnt look at the last byte yet ... cdimage shows 70005:41
Keybukogra: it strikes me that at some point, the effort of converting the existing KDE apps to be GTK+ apps may be worthwhile05:41
ograKeybuk, thats in the works ;)05:41
ograthere is a team of edubuntu users rewriting kalzium ... which is the only reason to have kdeedu05:42
janimoogra: you don't have kgeography or other kdeedu apps?05:42
Kamionyou still have lots of other kde applications in the seeds05:42
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ograjanimo, we have abut 5-10 kdeedu apps ... 05:43
ograbut all of them would have gnome pendants or are easy to rewrite 05:43
ograapart from kalzium05:43
Kamion$ wget -q -O - http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/edubuntu-edgy/desktop | grep -c 'kdeedu.*desktop seed'05:44
Chipzzogra: why rewrite them?05:44
ograok, let it be 14 ... still ...05:44
ograChipzz, do you have a better opportunity ? 05:45
KamionChipzz: having to have the KDE libraries on the CD takes up a lot of space05:45
Chipzzogra: given what I think of kde I have nothing against it05:45
Chipzzjust seems like a lot of work?05:45
ograChipzz, gaiing 50-100M on the iso is worth it 05:46
Chipzzyea I know what you meant ;)05:46
ograheh :)05:46
Chipzzwith the typo I mean ;)05:46
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Chipzzwhat are they going to be rewritten in? pygtk?05:47
ogramy problem is that ubuntu fils up its own CDs to the limit ... i have to put stuff on top but dont want to cripple the desktop to much ... 05:47
ChipzzKamion: btw, my ssh issue from earlier disappeared when my uplink got less congested05:47
ograthe kalzium thingie is pygtk/cairo05:48
janimodholbach: you know if bug-buddy is still active or apport replaces it completely?05:48
Chipzzogra: finally having a decent gnome-office and not having to put up with openoffice would be a big improvement too I guess05:48
ograChipzz, oo.o would be the last thing i'd drop in a school environment05:49
Chipzzabiword and gnumeric are fine replacements IMHO05:49
ograthen i'd rather ask iwj for his desktop setup configs and go with fvwm05:49
Chipzzbut that's a matter of taste I guess05:49
ograits not about replacements or shiny apps ...05:50
Chipzzbut I'm getting off-topic and keeping you from doing your job ;)05:50
ograin schools we need to cope with free windows ...05:50
ograwell, my job is rather waiting for LP today ...05:50
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Chipzzbut getting into a pointless discussion with me is a waste of time too I guess ;)05:51
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slomoinfinity: stuff likes to FTBFS on !i386 now because of broken build-deps :(05:56
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infinityslomo: I know.  Just bear with me.05:56
infinityslomo: I'll resolve it all in time.05:57
sivangspoken like a true god :p05:57
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slomoinfinity: thanks, you rock :)05:57
ograwhat the heck does ndiswrapper do in powerpc ? 05:57
sivanghi slomo 05:57
infinityogra: Not much.05:57
ograwell, it braks my ppc iso :)05:58
slomoRiddell: and kdegames FTBFS now because of "/usr/include/kde/kconfigbackend.h:256: error: 'KLocale' has not been declared". any idea what could've broken this lately?05:58
bluefoxicyoh well time to reclaim memory.  Killing the most memory-intensive process running:    796 root      15   0  367m 156m 137m S  0.0 16.5   1:38.67 synaptic05:58
mvobluefoxicy: *ick* 05:59
mvobluefoxicy: for how long is this runing? 05:59
bluefoxicymvo: 3 or 4 days05:59
bluefoxicysynaptic bloated more than Firefox, amusingly.05:59
infinityYou had synaptic running for 4 days?05:59
mvobluefoxicy: I blame memleaks in libapt 05:59
Riddellslomo: hmm, my desktop-locale stuff could have but I doubt it05:59
glatzorslomo: hi. you have killed my music player: #5822505:59
infinityThat's an odd use case.05:59
bluefoxicy30147 bluefox   15   0  215m 117m  18m S  0.0 12.4  29:37.26 mozilla-thunder  <-- 5 days06:00
Riddellslomo: let me try a compile06:00
mvobluefoxicy: but yeah, its pretty ugly and needs fixing06:00
slomoglatzor: cool... i'll take a look at it but it works fine here06:00
bluefoxicyinfinity: I tend to leave it open and reload every so often when there's an obvious bug or when I'm waiting for an update.06:00
bluefoxicyin this case, I was waiting for pax-utils, which has finally hit universe.06:01
glatzorslomo: perhaps another powerpc only issue.06:01
=== bluefoxicy wonders about pax-utils
bluefoxicysolar hasn't released another version; he's got some new features but he doesn't want to release them because they let the end user destroy shit badly06:02
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bluefoxicymvo:  how many apport's you got running?06:04
bluefoxicyor did you not install that?06:04
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ograoh, wow, dapper boots with 2.4.1706:06
infinityONly on i386.06:06
jdongogra: huh? udev?06:06
infinityOn all other arches, glibc won't work with << 2.606:07
mvobluefoxicy: it is installed, but I doN't have one runing06:07
ograjdong, i havent wiped the mbr yet ... :)06:07
infinity(Which will be true for i386 on edgy as well)06:07
ograand was to slow to plug in the sbm floppie06:07
Riddellslomo: confirmed, it is my fault, Ill upload a new kdelibs to fix06:08
Riddelland Ill reupload kdegames06:08
RiddellMithrandir ^^06:08
slomoRiddell: ok, thanks :)06:09
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slomohi sivang :)06:11
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bluefoxicymvo:  okay; I have 14 running.06:20
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gesercan someone explain me what the amd64 debs for cantlr and libantlr-dev are doing in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/p/python-smbpasswd/ ?06:22
geserlibantlr-dev for amd64 is also in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/p/python-smbpasswd/06:23
mvobluefoxicy: pitti (when he is back) may be interessted to hear this06:23
infinitygeser: Just hanging' out, I guess.06:23
geserthe other packages from antlr are in the right directory06:23
infinitygeser: (curious)06:23
geserthese dirs are also in the packages file for amd64/egdy: Filename: pool/universe/p/python-smbpasswd/cantlr_2.7.6-6ubuntu1_amd64.deb06:24
slomoMithrandir: libdbus-glib-1-dev is missing a replaces which breaks upgrades... are you fine with uploading?06:24
infinitygeser: Yeah, the packages file just reports on the on-disk structure, so that makes sense.06:25
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dholbachjanimo: there are plans, but atm apport will do one part, bug-buddy the other06:28
dholbachjanimo: s/atm/for edgy06:29
janimodholbach: ok. I was wondering whether gnome_program_init is less useful but if b-b is still used then no06:29
dholbachI'm currently not quite sure about all the implications06:30
infinitygeser: Team Soyuz is on it.  Thanks for the heads-up.06:31
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Simiraogra: power manager messes up my system06:54
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=== jdong_ finds it amusing that RHEL4 update 4 adds gcc 4.1, but not python 2.4 :(
slomoMithrandir: libdbus-glib-1-dev is missing a replaces which breaks upgrades... are you fine with uploading?07:24
infinityMithrandir: A kernel upload right now would make you very upset, right?07:27
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Keybukhmm, wow07:31
=== BenC lives to make Mith's work harder
Keybukwhatever I'm doing is _really_ upsetting X07:31
SimiraMithrandir's out, back in two hours or so07:31
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SimiraKeybuk: couldn't be related to my desktop freezing and a lot of disc/swap activity?07:32
KeybukSimira: not unless you're running upstart07:32
Simiranot that I know of07:32
jdubin edgy boot process, upstart runs you!07:33
Keybukit seems that I'm doing something to /dev/console that's making the running X server crash07:33
Keybukwhich is quite clever07:33
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Keybukthe trouble is, all I think I'm doing is "echo foo > /dev/console"07:34
infinitySimira: Care to phone or SMS him and ask if he'd kill BenC for uploading a new kernel? :)07:34
bddebiandoko: ping?07:34
BenCinfinity: this is sort of tricky...I mean it wouldn't be the end of the world if I don't upload07:34
dokobddebian: pong07:35
Kamionwhat are the changes?07:35
BenCKamion: huge07:35
Kamionthat doesn't sound immediately appealing07:35
Keybuk"That's the second-biggest Kernel Upload I've ever seen!"07:35
BenCthe 686/k7 -> generic name changes07:35
Kamionthat needs installer changes07:35
bddebiandoko: Do you have any suggestions for azureus? It looks like you made some fairly significant changes.07:35
BenCmy problem is that the kernel in Knot-1 isn't much different than what's in the archive right now07:36
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Kamionand livefs build script changes I guess07:36
BenCso most ppl's problems wont be fixed from the last one07:36
Kamionis it possible to back out the intrusive packaging changes temporarily?07:36
dokobddebian: don't take the Debian package, please look at the fedora one. debian's is in contrib, so we cannot put it in main07:36
=== jdong_ hugs bddebian for remembering azureus :)
BenCKamion: not really07:37
infinityKamion: The livefs change is simple enough.07:37
BenCI have lrm, linux-meta and kernel source with this name change ready to upload07:37
Kamionall the consequent changes are simple enough, there are just quite a few of them and I'm not convinced I can remember them all07:37
Kamionand we'll have to basically rebuild everything from the ground up07:38
BenCwell, lrm is almost ready, I have to remerge from infinity's uploads :)07:38
bddebiandoko: Its not in main now07:38
infinityKamion: We're still rebuilding the world for the dbus crap anyway.  My only concern here is the delay required to build the kernels.07:38
BenCwhen is knot-2 supposed to be released again?07:38
dokobddebian: sorry, universe; but contrib would be multiverse07:38
Simirainfinity: sure07:38
KeybukBenC: tomorrow07:38
Kamionyeah, but the world there wasn't supposed to include say debian-installer07:39
bddebiandoko: Aye.  Hmm07:39
BenCick, it would delay it to probably Friday night at best07:39
infinityBenC: Best to skip the kernel uploads, then?07:39
Kamiondoko: we have discretion on that if the Debian package is contrib for reasons that don't apply to us07:39
Kamione.g. dependencies that we've moved to main/universe07:40
infinityBenC: If you upload right after knot-2, that gives you a couple of weeks to iron out wrinkles and pray for a really solid kernel on knot-3. :)07:40
Simirainfinity: he says go07:40
BenCprobably best07:40
infinitySimira: Heh, and we seem to have just said "no". :)07:40
Simirajust don't break anything07:40
BenCI'd hate to make this upload, and then something be broken that I didn't forsee, and end up delaying knot-2 for 3-4 days or something07:40
SimiraBenC: if you can wait till after knot release, I am sure he'll appreciate07:41
BenCSimira: as usual, I can't guarantee non-breakage :)07:41
SimiraBenC: what is it with you guys and breaking things...?07:41
BenCinfinity: I don't suppose there's a way to have the kernel uploaded and staged somewhere is there?07:41
jdubSimira: EDGY!!!11107:42
BenCotherwise for the next two days I am going to feel the need to break^Wwork on it more07:42
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KamionBenC: dump it on chinstrap?07:42
Kamionthen it can be uploaded right afterwards07:43
BenCSimira: the kernel's job is to find hardware bugs, which may, on occasion require us to implement non-standard code into the cpu/hardware in order to flush out these bugs07:43
dokoKamion: but it doesn't build using main/universe tools. and doesn't run using main/universe tools as provided in unstable07:43
Kamiondoko: ok, then it's not so much that the Debian package is contrib, but that when built on Ubuntu that package has to be multiverse :-)07:43
infinityBenC: Yeah, just upload it to chinstrap (signed, even), and any one of us can plonk it on drescher when the release is out.07:43
Kamiondoko: I thought you were saying that any package synced from Debian contrib had to stay in multiverse.07:44
BenCinfinity: Ok, I'll have linux-source+lrm+linux-meta on there by the end of the day, and email you07:44
infinityBenC: Cool.07:44
dokoKamion: no, not the latter07:45
dokobddebian: if you do want to give it a try, let me know. the fedora patches are online as well.07:46
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bddebiandoko: Up to you.  I'm happy to try07:47
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jdub(yay, fglrx works again)07:49
Seveasmjg59, you around?07:50
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SurakBenC: ping07:51
mjg59Seveas: Hi07:51
dokobddebian: I'll send you some URL's tonight07:52
Seveasmjg59, will usplash on ppc do $something_better_than_640x400x16 for edgy07:52
bddebiandoko: OK, thx07:54
dokoaway for the next hour07:54
SeveasI've ripped out run-length encoding and made pngtobogl do 256 color images, which works fine on 386 but ppc still uses bogl07:54
mjg59Seveas: If someone writes the code, sure07:56
Seveasmjg59, I would if I could but have no ppc to test 07:56
mjg59Seveas: It ought to be trivial to make bogl write a 256 colour value to the framebuffer07:56
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Seveasmjg59, but it'd still be 640x400, right?07:57
mjg59Seveas: That's just a matter of adding a modesetting call07:57
mjg59ppc has proper framebuffers07:57
=== Seveas goes ppc hunting
Seveasanyway, I'll upload my branch to launchpad later today so you can merge at least this part07:58
Seveas(or the parts of it you like)07:58
Kamionyou probably want to just use the mode the framebuffer starts up in07:59
KamionI think that's generally reasonable07:59
Kamionat present the powerpc code in usplash deliberately centres the image on the screen07:59
Kamion(at least it did when I last wrote any of it)07:59
Kamionall you need to do is just use a bigger image instead08:00
Seveassounds reasonable, but I don't want to touch the code with a 10-foot pole if I can't test it08:00
Kamionusplash is doing bogl_init() failed for me at present, so ...08:00
KamionI assumed somebody broke it but haven't got round to figuring out why08:00
Kamiontoday IIRC it complained about /dev/fb0 not being there; could just be a module loading issue08:00
SeveasKamion, you can test it while running (at least on x86) by running sudo usplash -c -- /dev/fb0 should be there post-boot08:01
Kamiontrue, but not while I'm in the middle of taking gparted apart. :)08:07
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Seveasfair enough ;)08:08
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nandaySorry for barging in. I'm a Newsforge writer, researching a story. Would anyone be willing to comment publicly on the civility on Ubuntu's forums and Ubuntu's sense of direction compared to Debian's?08:14
BurgworkLaserJock, hmm, nice can of worms08:15
mjg59Seveas: We don't autoload framebuffer drivers now08:16
mjg59Oh, on ppc08:16
mjg59Right, sorry08:16
dholbachnanday: you can always try info@ubuntu.com08:16
sbalneavLaserJock: I installed the 25edubuntu-menus thing you pasted yesterday.  Worked like a charm.08:16
Burgworkdholbach, you want this to go to somebody official or should I cover it?08:16
Burgworkdholbach, also, nanday is in the same timezone as myself08:17
LaserJocksbalneav: excellent08:17
dholbachBurgwork: he wants somebody to comment s08:17
nandayBurgwork, the occasion is Matthew Garrett's resignation from Debian: 08:18
dholbachBurgwork: he wants somebody to comment publicly, so I thought that somebody of the management would better do it08:18
Burgworkdholbach, indeed. Light touch needed08:18
Surakhum. Bug #20943 and bug #55104 looks the same. And I confirmed the latter on every 2.6-based linux version I put my hands on08:19
UbugtuMalone bug 20943 in linux-source-2.6.15 "module insertion hangs in apic/irq setup" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2094308:19
UbugtuMalone bug 55104 in linux-source-2.6.15 "panic/lock/restart on dapper-amd64 if there's intel integrated video AND a nvidia card at the same time" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5510408:19
nandayif anyone does care to respond publicly, I can stress that it's not the official opinion of Ubuntu.08:19
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infinitynanday: You may note that it's rather entertaining to discuss mjg59 in the third person when he's not only in this channel, but was actively participating 15 lines above.08:20
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nandayinfinity, yep.08:21
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Burgworknanday, basically, it boils down to I don't feel comfortable making any statements about those topics because I don't work for canonical. So you need to grab Mark/Jane/somebody else in Canonical's london office.08:25
nandayBurgwork, fair enough. I can hope, but I won't pry.08:26
desrtBurgwork; so have you thought any more?08:26
Burgworkdesrt, sorry?08:27
tsengnanday: I would like someone else to back this up, but I also don't believe that the "civility of the forums" is directly linked to ubuntu or canonical08:27
desrttseng; word.08:27
Burgworkwhat sort of mentorship?08:27
tsengdesrt: yo08:27
desrtBurgwork; the thing i blogged about08:27
desrtBurgwork; you said that you were the sort of person who could get the ball rolling on something :)08:27
Burgworkright, not had a chance to think about it08:27
nandaytseng, can you expand a little?08:28
Burgworklet me do that lunch today08:28
desrtjust a friendly nudge :)08:28
tsengnanday: I think canonical might provide hosting, but it isnt run by Canonical08:28
tsengnanday: some forum leadership happens to be ubuntu members, not all08:28
LaserJockthe forums have their own admins and moderators08:29
tsengnanday: its somewhat disconnected08:29
tsengnanday: (And definately has 0 connection to mjg59 leaving Debian)08:29
LaserJockbut I think they still try to abide by the CoC08:29
jdong_LaserJock: the CoC is strictly enforced at the forums08:29
KamionI think it depends whether you mean forums as in ubuntuforums.org or in the more general sense of places for Ubuntu discussion08:29
Kamion(including IRC and mailing lists)08:29
LaserJockah, true08:30
LaserJockI would say though that the CoC is still the common denominator with pretty much all communication in Ubuntu08:30
Kamionmost people answering seem to have assumed the former, but that's basically jargon08:30
jdong_is the forum to blame for the mjg59 situation or something?08:30
tsengits jargon with a specific meaning to most linux people08:30
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Kamionjdong_: it's got nothing to do with it08:30
jdong_k, whew08:30
Burgworkjdong_, I don't know how the two questions are connected. nanday ?08:31
=== jdong_ is still pretty swamped/backlogged with forums<->canonical dealings :-/
Burgworknanday, generally I have found the forums to be very civil08:31
jdong_we try very hard to keep the forums civil08:31
tsengBurgwork: something to do with more civility in the forums having something to do with a departure from Debian08:31
nandayso, it's more or less a reaction to Debian?08:32
Burgworktseng, ah, ubuntu is a more civil place in general? hmm, no idea08:32
tsengnanday: a personal decision by one person based on events in debian, clearly spelled out08:32
dholbachnanday: what do you mean?08:32
tsengnanday: the references to ubuntu was tangential08:32
nandaytseng, yes.08:33
nandaybut he's not the only one to make a similar comparison.08:33
tsengnanday: it seems like jdong_ can point you to some ubuntuforums.org people if you did indeed mean 'those forums' and want to continue making such a connection08:36
jdong_I'm an admin at the forums, and I'd be glad to clarify any questions regarding the forums08:36
jdong_or put you in contact with someone who can08:36
tsengI personally don't see any news here.08:36
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nandayjdong, I'd be interested in hearing if you take any particular steps to keep civililty. But maybe we should take this off the channel?08:38
jdong_nanday: what do you mean by keep civility?08:38
jdong_we have a large staff of moderators making sure users abide by the CoC08:39
tseng(Code of Conduct)08:39
nandayjdong, maybe the moderators and CoC explain it.08:39
nandaytseng, thanks.08:39
tsengofficially regognized members are required to 'sign' this08:40
jdong_we do step in and take action when conversations start becoming rude or disrespectful08:40
tsengeveryone else is expected to comply in good faith08:40
tsengand it mostly works, so far08:40
jdong_for the most part, people are very courteous even without our intervention08:40
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jdong_but there are a handful that need us to remind them to be nice :)08:40
nandayok, that helps to give me some perspective.08:41
nandaythanks for taking the time to talk.08:41
jdong_no problem08:41
jdong_stop by the forums or e-mail me at jdong@ubuntu.com if you have any further questions08:41
tsengnanday: of most importance besides good faith "be nice"08:41
tsengnanday: note that technical matters are taken to the Tech Board for a discussion and ruling, as opposed to people duking it out on the mailing lists08:42
tseng(which still happens, sometimes)08:42
Kamion*ahem* zeroconf08:42
nandaytseng, good point. 08:43
tsengcommunity council is an escalation point for non-tech issues08:43
Kamionit takes a while to get to the techboard sometimes ;)08:43
tsengcrucial points.08:43
Kamionbut, shrug, you don't want to go to a committee straight away, it gets too bureaucratic08:43
tsengof course not, most things can be worked out civily08:43
tsengjust not $shiny_apple_protocol08:44
MithrandirKamion: to be fair, the zeroconf disucssion, while lively and big was for the biggest part on-topic, civil and somewhat useful.  At least I think it didn't evolve into a flamewar.08:44
tsengMithrandir: alot of repeition ad naseum, but it was certainly civil08:44
tsengsame with mono / "zomg i only have 256mb ram"08:45
Mithrandirtseng: yeah, hence my "for the biggest part".08:45
jdong_Mithrandir: is there any plans to update opera in dapper-commercial?08:45
jdong_I was told you were the go-to guy on that08:46
Mithrandirjdong_: I uploaded the previous package.  I could always poke my contacts in opera and ask for an update.08:47
nandaythanks, everyone. Much appreciated. I'm off.08:47
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jdong_Mithrandir: that'd be wonderful08:48
jdong_people have been bugging me about 9.0108:48
jdong_of course, I'm the one who gets bugged whenever something is out of date :(08:48
jdong_but this one is out of my domain :)08:48
Mithrandirjdong_: please drop me a mail about it so I don't forget.08:48
jdong_will do08:49
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sbalneavMithrandir: Are you one of the people on the X.Org swat team?09:12
Mithrandirsbalneav: depends. :-P09:12
Mithrandirsbalneav: any particular issue which is biting you?09:12
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sbalneavThere's a new series of thin client hardware coming out, that requires some patches to x.org.  What would the cutoff be to have them considered for inclusion?09:13
zygadid anyone notice the corrupted virtual console on ati hardware with current edgy kernel?09:14
tsengzyga: yes09:14
zygatseng: oh, k09:14
tsengold nvidia too09:14
tseng2/3 of my systems have it09:14
zygacool effect, while irritating09:15
Mithrandirsbalneav: hmm,  The earlier the better, naturally.09:15
jammcq_laptopMithrandir: is there a hard cutoff ?09:16
Mithrandirsbalneav: new drivers or just patches to old ones?09:16
Mithrandirjammcq_laptop: "release" is fairly hard. :-P09:16
tsengjammcq_laptop: the hard cut off has come and gone09:16
=== jammcq_laptop thinks it's just a patch to the existing via driver, but i'm still trying to confirm that
tsengjammcq_laptop: there are always exceptions, with increasing difficulty09:16
jdubhey duderinos09:16
tsenghello jdub 09:16
Mithrandirsbalneav: it should be quite doable to get it in if you have it by betafreeze.09:17
sbalneavThat's by second week of Sepember?09:17
sbalneaverr September?09:18
Mithrandirbetafreeze is Sep 21st.09:18
sbalneavPerfect!  09:18
sbalneavYou, sir, deserve a beer.09:18
Mithrandirsbalneav: though, you probably rather want to talk to rodarvus, he's the X driver guy.  I generally rather touch libs and apps and other crazy !server stuff.09:18
=== sbalneav slides one to Mithrandir
Mithrandirmm, beer.09:19
sbalneavAh, rodarvus! Perfect!09:19
sbalneavThanks muchly09:19
jammcq_laptopMithrandir: is the 'Unichrome' driver part of edgy's Xorg ?09:19
jammcq_laptopor maybe it's a Unichrome patch to the 'via' driver09:19
Mithrandirjammcq_laptop: UTSL; I'm not familiar with the via driver at all.09:19
rodarvussbalneav, hi :)09:20
jammcq_laptopwe'll bug rodarvus about it09:20
jammcq_laptoptanks for your help09:20
rodarvussure, just hand me the patch(es) and I'll take a look at it(them)09:20
sbalneavhey rodarvus!09:20
sbalneavYep, you'll be hearing from us! :)09:20
rodarvusgood! :)09:20
jammcq_laptoprodarvus: it'll prolly take me a week or 2 to get it all figured out, to send something to you09:21
rodarvusjammcq_laptop, sure, no problem.09:22
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rodarvusjammcq_laptop, afaik, the unichrome stuff is part of the via driver, yes09:23
jammcq_laptoprodarvus: it is entirely possible that the version of Xorg in edgy already works with this thin client.  I'll dig into that soon09:23
rodarvus(but I might be wrong)09:23
rodarvusjust for reference, I don't think the via driver has changed *so much* since dapper (even upstream -> http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/driver/xf86-video-via.git;a=summary)09:25
rodarvuswe have version 0.2.1, without any extra patches09:25
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bluefoxicyIs anyone interested in compressed memory?10:08
bluefoxicyi.e. memory pressure compresses stuff, then extra memory pressure sends it to swap, possibly avoiding some I/O (the CPU-bound problem is shorter than the I/O-bound problem)10:08
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jdong_bluefoxicy: how on earth do you compress RAM10:10
bluefoxicyNitan's 2.6 patch is almost ready but he thinks it's too much work to get it into mainline; I've recommended he get it working and do some performance measurements and then try to convince a major distribution to use it as backing to convince mainline to take it10:10
mjg59bluefoxicy: It's being looked at for OLPC10:10
jdong_that would be a cool concept10:11
bluefoxicyjdong_: when memory pressure is heavy normally pages are sent to swap.  This involves a few bits of disk access, seeking back and forth, writing data; then later some seeking and reading again to get it back.10:11
bluefoxicythe compressed memory project takes the pages going to swap and compresses them10:11
mjg59bluefoxicy: Of course, while it avoids writes to swap, it also reduces the size of available RAM10:11
bluefoxicywhen memory pressure gets tighter, it pushes those pages out to swap10:12
jdong_oh, I see10:12
mjg59So you end up compressing more stuff than you would otherwise have pushed out to disk10:12
bluefoxicymjg59:  of course, there is an effective limit and also memory access patterns affect it.10:12
mjg59I can imagine it being a win under some workloads and a loss under others10:12
mjg59But I would certainly be interested in the effect it would have on swapless systems10:12
bluefoxicymjg59: you compress least recently used memory; in many cases this memory goes to disk and stays there for a long time.  If you have a gig of ram, you may push 400 megs to swap, have 300 megs of disk cache.10:13
mjg59Where it would be preferable to push some running code out to compressed storage in order to keep more cache10:13
mjg59bluefoxicy: LRU memory or LRU working set?10:13
mjg59bluefoxicy: IE, does it discard caches before compressing anything?10:13
bluefoxicyYou may find that over the course of days, you have 700 megs of working set in RAM and 400 megs on swap, and the 400 megs for the most part stays there.10:13
bluefoxicymjg59:  I'm not sure.  There is a lot of research behind it, Nitan is at least the third person in line10:14
bluefoxicyRodrigo was the second (it was his master's dissertation); and he got the idea from Wilson and Kaplan, who also did it for their Ph.D. dissertaitions IIRC10:14
mjg59I can certainly see "discarding" some running apps in favour of cache as being advantageous for the live cd, for instance10:14
bluefoxicymjg59:  yes, it'd be great for the livecd10:14
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mjg59bluefoxicy: It's going to be too late for edgy, but do encourage him to bring it up on -devel10:15
zygaI don't think it's safe to turn it on by default without lots of testing10:15
zygahello lucas10:15
lucashello zyga 10:16
zygamvo_: do you agree?10:16
mjg59Playing with it early in the edgy+1 cycle (perhaps at one of the developer conferences) would be good10:16
bluefoxicymjg59:  it's going to be late for edgy definitely; but I don't want to see the work die again.10:16
mjg59We can easily produce two CD images, one with this and one without10:16
bluefoxicyRodrigo did it in 2.4.19 and it never went in, even though it worked rather well.10:16
mjg59And then see how they perform on different machines10:16
bluefoxicytwo CDs are not needed.10:16
bluefoxicyNitan took a different route from Castro; he's made a kernel module.10:16
mvo_zyga: we could try to raise more interesst in it, my latest bash upload should make it a matter of "apt-get install command-not-found" to activate it10:17
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bluefoxicy"Compression structure (as desc. later in this page) has been implemented as separate kernel module (and also merged with main compressed caching code)."10:17
zygamvo_: it's on by default after installing?10:17
mvo_zyga: maybe someone could blog about it? this seems to be the best way to raise interesst these days10:17
mvo_zyga: yes10:17
zygamvo_: maybe someone on planet.ubuntu?10:18
zygahow about you? :)10:18
bluefoxicymjg59:  you can use a boot time option to load/not load the module when it comes to it :)10:18
zygaI lost my blog a few days ago after forgetting to backup /var/lib before format :/10:18
mvo_zyga: yes10:18
mvo_zyga: eh ...10:18
mvo_zyga: I don't habe a blog10:18
mvo_zyga: maybe dholbach10:18
slomoinfinity: some give-backs for you :) gnome-applets (ppc) and evolution-exchange (!i386) for now10:18
thommvo_: searching Contents files for apt autocompletion?10:18
mjg59bluefoxicy: Ok, makes life even easier10:19
zygadholbach: would you? do you think it's a good idea?10:19
bluefoxicyhttp://linuxcompressed.sourceforge.net/linux24-cc/statistics/index.html  Here's the old stats on the 2.4 patch10:19
mvo_thom: if a command in bash is not found, it will do a db search for binaries that might be available but are not installed. but it will not install anything automatically :)10:19
bluefoxicyRodrigo let Nitan have http://linuxcompressed.sourceforge.net/ too10:19
dholbachzyga: i can't update planet, just a sec10:19
dholbachzyga: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu10:20
zygadholbach: oh, you can just be a member these days!10:20
zygaI'll look into it, thanks10:20
thommvo_: ah. auto-apt, the revenge?10:21
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zygathom, interesting - was auto apt fast?10:23
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bluefoxicymjg59:  eyeballing some of the stats, looking at http://linuxcompressed.sourceforge.net/linux24-cc/statistics/0.24pre6_kernel/ and http://linuxcompressed.sourceforge.net/linux24-cc/statistics/0.24pre6_mummer/10:23
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bluefoxicymjg59:  I know kernel compilation takes very little memory (as in a few tens, not 500 megs); it looks like as memory gets tighter the benefits are more and more substantial, while when memory is ample the cost/benefit ratio is almost 1:1 (you don't gain, but you don't lose either)10:24
thomzyga: i can't honestly say i ever got auto-apt to play ball10:25
=== zyga knows how mvo_ feels now
thomi didn't try very hard, mind :-)10:25
zygathom: try cnf from time to time, it's handy IMO10:25
thomzyga: i'd have to use bash then ;-)10:25
bluefoxicyas they do more parallel builds (-j2 and -j4) memory requirements go up and the cost/benefit stays higher for higher amounts of memory.  The second one (MUMmer scientific application) needs a LOT of memory and has a high benefit even with hundreds of megs of memory.10:25
thommight see if i can find the spare time to hook up zsh10:26
zygathom: true, what do you use?10:26
zygathat was my other question10:26
zygacan zsh be hooked up easily?10:26
thomi'd imagine so10:26
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bluefoxicymjg59:  I'll send something to -devel later tonight with conjecture of impact based on the old benchmarks.10:26
mvo__thom: I would be happy to have patches for zsh :)10:26
thomwe'll see :-)10:27
zygadholbach: hmm, my pubkey was denied any ideas? I have my key in launchpad so I don't have any10:27
dholbachzyga: no idea at all10:28
Simiradholbach: I have reserved a Danish-Swedish farm-dog (? it's called something like that), born August 19th.10:30
dholbachwhen do you get it?10:31
thommvo__: on the random hacking states https for apt is rather higher on the priority list :-)10:31
Simiradholbach: the one with light brown on the lowest middle pic is the mother: http://www.rdsg.no/Bilde14.htm10:31
Simiradholbach: about Oct 13th10:31
mvo__thom: agreed10:31
dholbachSimira: nice :-)10:32
=== dholbach hugs Simira
thomshould this kernel happen to work i can actually spend some time on that10:32
Simiradholbach: not it. Him. The mother's name is Lilo, Tollef wants to call him Grub :p10:32
Mithrandirog silo og isolinux or maybe pxe?10:32
MithrandirI can't type, you know that.10:33
SimiraI'm not convinced10:33
Simiraabout the names10:33
thomjust use pwgen and stick with tradition :P10:33
Simirano way10:33
Mithrandirthom: I think she'd kill me if I did that.10:34
Mithrandiror throw me out or something.10:34
thomthe _dog_ won't know :-)10:34
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Simirathom: I will know10:35
dholbachhave a nice evening10:35
Mithrandirthom: well, I have to live with Karianne, so I better stick with something she can live with.  And it'll be her dog, not mine.  Especially on the days when it's hailing, etc.10:35
Simiragood night, dholbach 10:35
dholbachbye Simira10:35
thomnight daniel!10:36
Mithrandirgood night, dholbach 10:36
OddAbe19is the "gnome-panel using 100 cpu" bug fixed yet?10:36
dholbachbye Thom, bye Tollef10:36
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OddAbe19is the "gnome-panel using 100 cpu" bug fixed yet?10:44
thomplease don't repeat questions10:45
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ograKeybuk, what was the driver you used for the PCI wlan card we bought ? 11:30
ogra(i dont even see it in lspci here)11:30
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lifelessBenC: ping11:33
BenClifeless: pong11:33
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lifelessI'm going to skip my little tale of trauma from last night, and just ask - can we please get dm-bbr support put back into the dapper kernels ?11:34
lifelessI dont know when it went away, but its lack is rather unfortunate - for me at least11:34
jdong|coreduolifeless: +111:35
=== jdong|coreduo has asked for it before but didn't make dapper
lifelessin other news, building a custom tweaked kernel was hugely painless [except for my laptop being too puny] , so thanks heaps for everything done there11:35
sharmsmako: ping11:35
lifelessjdong|coreduo: well it was in before dapper11:35
Burgworksharms, *laugh*. Good luck. Probably easier to mail him11:36
BenClifeless: dm-bbr?11:36
jdong|coreduolifeless: right; it disappeared at dapper....11:36
lifelessjdong|coreduo: so it had to come out at some point. I know it was in because I setup my evms config *with* dm-bbr during the beta period11:36
jdong|coreduoBenC: device-mapper's bad block relocator11:36
lifelessBenC: do an apt-get source evms11:36
BenCwas that an external patch?11:36
jdong|coreduoBenC: it's a part of evms11:36
lifelessBenC: look in kernel/2.6/11:36
jdong|coreduoat least upstream evms :-/11:36
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lifelessjdong|coreduo: its in the dapper evms package11:36
lifelessBenC: yes, its an external patch.11:37
jdong|coreduoBenC: it's pretty important since nowadays filesystem devs aren't thinking bad blocks are their problem anymore11:37
lifelessin fact, as a module, evms could supply the thing11:37
jdong|coreduolifeless: I don't think the kernel module system ubuntu uses works that way11:37
jdong|coreduobut then again, BenC is the expert on that11:37
BenClifeless: it would have to have one for each kernel flavour11:38
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lifelessBenC: well, what ever is easiest for you. For me - I have a disk partition config here that needs it, which I built using dapper's betas.11:39
jdong|coreduoBenC: I got some bad hard drives I'd like to use again :)11:39
lifelessso, if we can get it into dapper updates, it will save me a world of pain11:39
lifelessand it sounds like jdong|coreduo wishes for it too11:39
BenCpatch applied cleanly11:39
BenCI guess I can add it in with dapper since it doesn't touch any other code11:40
jdong|coreduowow, today's a REALLY good day11:40
jdong|coreduoand it's not just the vicodin that makes me say that11:40
lifelessBenC: I built a kernel image with it myself last night, as a module, and it let me boot without error [well, it wasn't in the initramfs, but that I know how to fix] 11:40
lifelessBenC: thank you !very! much11:40
jdong|coreduogrr, gedit-dev...... gedit_-dev_? what the hell is gedit-dev....11:41
LaserJockwhat's the default python version in Edgy? still 2.4?11:41
ChipzzLaserJock: "still"?11:42
jdong|coreduoLaserJock: umm, isn't 2.4 still the latest version?11:42
lifelessBenC: while you are there, can you see if the other evms patch is applied ?11:42
LaserJock2.5beta is in edgy11:42
lifelessBenC: I ask because Mithrandir thought we definately have it, but its strange to have only have the patches from a package11:42
sivanghow dangerous will it be to install upstart and replace my init system?11:43
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jdong|coreduosivang: it slots, so it should be safe :)11:43
jdong|coreduosivang: you need an init= kernel argument to invoke it11:43
jdong|coreduosivang: README.Debian time? :)11:43
sivangjdong|coreduo: probably, but I wanted to know before installing the package from univers , fearing it will just replace stuff :-)11:44
jdong|coreduoinstalling it appears quite harmless11:44
sivangjdong|coreduo: what do you mean it "slots" ? (please excuse my non en nativeness)11:44
zygadoes anyone know how to make a nice hackergothi?11:45
jdong|coreduoit installs things alongside what's in your system already11:45
jdong|coreduoas opposed to replacing11:45
jdong|coreduosivang: i.e. python2.4 "slots" python2.3; gaim 2.0beta in Edgy "replaces" gaim 1.5.x in Dapper11:46
jdong|coreduosivang: it's more of a gentoo term than an english slang thing :)11:46
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zygasivang: I'll give upstart a try too11:47
sivangjdong|coreduo: you can never know what terms you will learn on ubuntu-devel ;-)11:47
sivangzyga: cool11:47
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zygasivang: I'll reboot now11:48
zygamvo: night!11:48
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lifelessis modules still the right way to ensure a device is loaded into the initramfs ?11:51
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zygawell I'm still alive ;-)11:55
zygaKeybuk: do you write upstart?11:56
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zygaupstart runs quite nice12:05

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