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[12:08] <Keybuk> theCore: oh aye, what was the problem?
[12:12] <theCore> Keybuk, bug 58396
[12:12] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58396 in upstart "System doesn't showdown via ACPI" [Untriaged,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58396
[12:13] <Keybuk> ah yes, just replied to that one
[12:13] <Keybuk> it is, as you suspected, that there is no upstart-esque shutdown command in the package in universe
[12:14] <theCore> ah, nice
[12:15] <theCore> Keybuk, btw, I'm trying to make a logo upstart, maybe you will like it
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[12:15] <theCore> for upstart*
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[12:17] <theCore> it's arrows shaped in a sort of infinity sign 
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[12:30] <LaserJock> gnomefreak: pong
[12:30] <gnomefreak> did you ever get python-tk issue worked out?
[12:31] <LaserJock> oh, it worked itself out
[12:31] <gnomefreak> ok cool
[12:31] <LaserJock> or somebody did it
[12:32] <Keybuk> theCore: sounds intriguing
[12:33] <gnomefreak> do we take gnome-menu from gnome or do we use our own?
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[01:01] <jdub> does anyone 'own' printer stuff atm?
[01:02] <tseng> jdub: pitti has always owned it afaik
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[01:02] <robertj> jdub: what do you think about nixing SOC from the planet now?
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[01:06] <visik7> hi
[01:06] <visik7> will linux-phc patch be integrated into ubuntu kernel ?
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[01:08] <jdub> robertj: hrm?
[01:08] <robertj> p.g.o
[01:08] <jdub> robertj: i think you are in the wrong channel :)
[01:10] <sladen> visik7: what's the patch do?  You'll need to make a case for it, you could ask in the #ubuntu-kernel channel or propose a specification by starting one at  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[01:10] <volvoguy> hey folks, sorry to ask this here. i was about to try out kubuntu knot-1 on my canonical laptop and realized knot-2 is scheduled for today. is it still scheduled for today? :)
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[01:34] <nictuku> is there any package with debconf scripts for creating SSL certificates?
[01:35] <nictuku> I would like to use one as my template
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[01:40] <theCore> Keybuk, I think I got something: http://peadrop.com/files/upstart.png
[01:40] <theCore> and for the source http://peadrop.com/files/upstart.svg
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[01:46] <Keybuk> theCore: I like the bottom one of the two arrows ... that works on its own, no?
[01:46] <theCore> Keybuk, yea
[01:47] <theCore> Keybuk, it's just two duplicated arrows
[01:47] <Keybuk> needs some colour :p
[01:47] <theCore> yeah :)
[01:47] <theCore> blues?
[01:47] <Keybuk> nah, something ! blue
[01:47] <theCore> red?
[01:47] <Keybuk> uh, not blue
[01:47] <Burgwork> orange fading to red?
[01:48] <theCore> uh, lets try that
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[01:50] <Burgwork> and I would try only one arrow
[01:51] <theCore> yeah, I like that idea
[01:52] <mbiebl> Keybuk: Is upstart also intended to replace all these scripts in /etc/ppp/*.d/, /etc/network/*.d, /etc/dbus/even.d/ etc. ?
[01:52] <Keybuk> mbiebl: eventually, yes
[01:52] <mbiebl> etch+1?
[01:53] <mbiebl> That would be great!
[01:53] <bluefoxicy> ubuntu etch?  what?
[01:53] <mbiebl> s/etch/edgy/
[01:54] <mbiebl> (can happen)
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> I need a white board, my brain needs swap space for this, damn.
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[01:59] <mbiebl> One thing I was wondering is how a user can disable a service from being started
[02:01] <Keybuk> mbiebl: how would you like them to be able to disable them?
[02:02] <mbiebl> Say, ssh install /etc/even.d/ssh, which should be started as soon as the "network_available" event is triggered.
[02:02] <mbiebl> There could be users, who don't want ssh to be started.
[02:02] <Keybuk> "users" ?  or "system adminstrators" ?
[02:03] <mbiebl> ok, system administrators then.
[02:03] <Keybuk> right, so there's a whole bunch of ideas
[02:03] <Keybuk> a) it's a conffile, the "start on ..." bits can be removed
[02:03] <Keybuk> b) _ion has suggested adding a "disabled" entry to the config file
[02:03] <Keybuk> c) it can be removed
[02:03] <Keybuk> (a) has the advantage that it can still be manually started
[02:03] <Keybuk> where (b)/(c) have the advantage that it cannot be
[02:04] <mbiebl> Ah, ok. This ideas should be added to the wiki then
[02:05] <Keybuk> yeah, should get a wiki together really
[02:05] <Keybuk> and a website
[02:05] <Keybuk> and stuff
[02:05] <theCore> Keybuk, with colors, http://peadrop.com/files/upstart.png
[02:05] <robtaylor> theCore: nice :)
[02:05] <Keybuk> theCore: could you make the "underneath" obviously lighter ?
[02:05] <Keybuk> ie. grey or some other colour?
[02:05] <theCore> yeah
[02:05] <Keybuk> I liked the tail effect it had last time
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[02:07] <theCore> like that? http://peadrop.com/files/upstart.png
[02:07] <robtaylor> theCore: the top line overhanging on the left looks like a rendering error rather than a deliberate choice
[02:07] <Keybuk> still too dark, lighter! :p
[02:07] <Keybuk> maybe grey to white, rather than black
[02:08] <theCore> robtaylor, I know that, I need to adjust it 
[02:08] <robtaylor> theCore: ah, cool :)
[02:09] <ohoel> upstart works like a real charm
[02:11] <jdong|coreduo> does it shut down now?
[02:11] <jdub> Keybuk: should i test upstart on my laptop or server?
[02:11] <jdub> Keybuk: which use cases are you missing atm?
[02:11] <Keybuk> jdub: laptop, until the upload that has shutdown etc. is in
[02:11] <jdub> Keybuk: did that md/uuid stuff get a look in?
[02:12] <theCore> Keybuk, now?
[02:12] <Keybuk> jdub: fabbione is supposed to be looking at that
[02:12] <Keybuk> theCore: url?
[02:12] <theCore> oups, forgot scp 
[02:12] <theCore> same url again
[02:13] <theCore> robtaylor, fixed
[02:14] <Keybuk> theCore: that looks cool
[02:15] <Keybuk> the colours make it look a *bit* too much like the firefox logo though, no? :p
[02:15] <jdub> heh, yeah
[02:15] <theCore> that's what I thought too
[02:16] <theCore> a small variant http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-rounded.png
[02:16] <Keybuk> also the arrow is lop-sided, not sure whether that's deliberate or not?
[02:16] <Keybuk> oh, definitely prefer the sharper one
[02:17] <theCore> any other colour idea?
[02:18] <theCore> what about yellow/black?
[02:18] <theCore> like a banana
[02:18] <Keybuk> try a few ideas
[02:18] <Keybuk> green suggests "start" usually?
[02:21] <theCore> I will try that (black/yellow looks like vomit in gradient)
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[02:22] <ohoel> there's a small glitch in that image
[02:22] <jdub> how about
[02:23] <jdub> a green arrow
[02:23] <jdub> pointing up
[02:23] <ohoel> about where the red tip points toward the gray, the black border is two straight lines meeting eachother instead of a curve
[02:23] <jdub> it could even be the tango up arrow
[02:23] <jdub> and then, in bold letters, probably half-logo-height
[02:23] <jdub> "DO IT"
[02:23] <ohoel> how about a flying herring?
[02:24] <Burgwork> words in logos are general frowned upon, for i18n reasons
[02:24] <jdub> i knew some anal retentive freak would mention that
[02:24] <jdub> and thoroughly miss the point!
[02:25] <robtaylor> theCore: sweeet :)
[02:25] <ohoel> something that alludes to evolution perhaps.. ala http://www.mnpublius.com/evolution.jpg
[02:25] <theCore> http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-green.png
[02:25] <ohoel> the start of all things :p
[02:25] <ohoel> too complex for a logo, probably
[02:25] <Keybuk> jdub: what was the point?
[02:26] <Keybuk> theCore: the black doesn't work there, does it?
[02:26] <Burgwork> ohoel, make it just the outline and it becomes simpler and more interesting
[02:26] <theCore> Keybuk,  hmm, good point
[02:28] <ohoel> this'll be an excellent time to install inkscape
[02:29] <theCore> now a radioactive version: http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-green.png
[02:29] <ohoel> I think the green should be more in the tangerine/human/tango style
[02:30] <ohoel> though talking about green and human in the same sentence is a bit.. off
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[02:32] <theCore> did my last message got through? my connection choked for a sec
[02:32] <theCore> in case not, here a radioactive version: http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-green.png
[02:32] <Keybuk> theCore: yeah, a bit ... bright
[02:32] <Keybuk> maybe just make the green two different greens
[02:33] <Keybuk> perhaps a darker tangoish one?
[02:33] <Keybuk> even if the tango up arrow looks like a monopoly house
[02:34] <theCore> ok, 
[02:35] <ohoel> http://appelsinjuice.org/strekmenn.png <- evolution in a stroke!
[02:36] <Keybuk> ohoel: why is Jesus at the front?
[02:36] <Burgwork> Keybuk, be nice
[02:36] <Burgwork> ohoel, drop the cross
[02:36] <ohoel> Yes, my thought too
[02:36] <ohoel> I just traced the image I showed you earlier
[02:36] <Keybuk> Burgwork: I didn't mean it not-nicely
[02:36] <theCore> should I drop the black for a tango-look?
[02:36] <jdub> yeah, some arrows *dream* of being monopoly houses
[02:37] <ohoel> It's okay, my opposition to any religious symbols in a linux distro is strong
[02:37] <Keybuk> theCore: no, I like black outlines :)
[02:37] <theCore> noted
[02:38] <ohoel> theCore: I think the outline is perhaps a bit too heavy
[02:38] <ohoel> softening it or adding a brighter outer copy of the arrow would make the arrow alot more friendly
[02:39] <theCore> http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-green.png green/green not tangoish
[02:41] <Keybuk> theCore: still rather yellow
[02:41] <ohoel> are you using a radial gradient?
[02:41] <theCore> oups
[02:41] <theCore> ohoel, yes
[02:41] <theCore> ok, uploaded now
[02:42] <ohoel> that's probably best :) looks like it could use a smoother transition, though
[02:42] <ohoel> I see all the steps between yellow and the pastel-green
[02:42] <Keybuk> theCore: that looks better;  it might be nice if there was a less subtle transition -- like the "glassy"(?) effect they do sometimes where it's just two colours and a pretty shape?
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[02:43] <theCore> Keybuk, it could be done
[02:44] <Keybuk> it's _almost_ right, but just lacking something
[02:44] <Keybuk> dunno waht
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[02:51] <theCore> http://peadrop.com/files/upstart3.png
[02:54] <Keybuk> hmm, the shape isn't right, and it doesn't want the blur, but I quite like that
[02:55] <theCore> it doesn't want the blur?
[02:55] <Keybuk> no, I don't think it does
[02:56] <ohoel> http://appelsinjuice.org/strekmenn.png no cross :] 
[02:57] <ohoel> this somehow reminds me of the GNU logo
[02:58] <theCore> Keybuk, like that? http://peadrop.com/files/upstart3.png
[02:58] <Keybuk> theCore: looks cool
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[02:58] <Keybuk> maybe bring the darker bit up a bit?
[02:59] <theCore> both greens?
[02:59] <theCore> sorry
[03:00] <theCore> now? http://peadrop.com/files/upstart3.png
[03:01] <Keybuk> hmm, that looks ok
[03:01] <Keybuk> there's not quite enough of the dark bit though
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[03:08] <gnomefreak> where are the knot-2 images?
[03:11] <gnomefreak> nvm looks like they were not released yet
[03:12] <ohoel> is simon law here?
[03:12] <gnomefreak> hes here somewhere maybe sleeping
[03:13] <ohoel> I wonder what led him to set sourcepackage powernowd on bug 22336 ;] 
[03:13] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 22336 in powernowd "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/22336
[03:16] <theCore> Keybuk, http://peadrop.com/files/upstart3.png
[03:17] <Keybuk> theCore: *there we go!*
[03:17] <Keybuk> the only error there is that the right hand side of the arrow is cut off
[03:18] <theCore> oh, yeah I didn't saw it
[03:18] <theCore> it looks like an export error
[03:21] <theCore> Keybuk, it is fixed
[03:23] <Keybuk> kewl
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[03:29] <theCore> Keybuk, here the Inkscape SVG: http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-logo.svg
[03:30] <sfllaw> ohoel: You're right.  That's an ACPI fan thing, isn't it?
[03:32] <sfllaw> ohoel: Well, it's sort of sketchy.  I think the laptop overheats while the fan is going, so maybe powernowd should be scaling back the CPU?
[03:32] <theCore> Keybuk, and the final PNG: http://peadrop.com/files/upstart-logo.png
[03:32] <theCore> I hope you like it
[03:32] <Keybuk> theCore: yup, many thanks :p
[03:33] <sfllaw> theCore: Nice.
[03:35] <theCore> sfllaw, thank you
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[03:49] <de_wizze> what are the future planet for the multimedia platforms in Unbuntu, along the lines of "What are the prospectives for things lick NMM and PolyAudio or the like ( Im not sure how Gstreamer relates to PA)
[03:56] <ohoel> sfllaw: the bug report is a bit overflowed with different setups, but in my case, atleast, it seems the fan just doesn't spin up fast enough... I'm not even sure whether that's just a hardware "feature" or a bug, but I didn't notice any problems back when I used XP on this machine
[03:57] <ohoel> right now the cpu throttles up to 1.6Ghz, while the fan start spinning up slowly several seconds later, so if the CPU was hot enough before, it'll lead to the bug
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[04:24] <sfllaw> ohoel: Bleh.
[04:24] <sfllaw> ohoel: It does sound like either the fan isn't spinning up soon enough, so the temperature threshold is too high.
[04:25] <sfllaw> Or the fan is spinning, but the computer is poorly designed, so the CPU needs to be throtled back.
[04:25] <sfllaw> In short, hardware is terrible.  :(
[04:25] <mjg59> I still don't understand
[04:26] <mjg59> Thermal shutdown shouldn't occur until you've got past the passive cooling trippoint
[04:26] <mjg59> At which point the CPU should be throttled back down
[04:26] <mjg59> It's got nothing to do with the speed at which the fan changes
[04:26] <mjg59> And you'd expect the fan to lag behind the frequency change - it won't speed up until the temperature crosses a threshold
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[04:26] <Trae> sfllaw, boo
[04:27] <sfllaw> mjg59: What if it's software controlled?
[04:27] <Trae> sfllaw, ;)  I see you are working on the Overheat bug... 
[04:27] <sfllaw> mjg59: There are some BIOSes that delegate this behaviour to the OS.
[04:27] <ohoel> mjg59: in linux, at least, it doesn't seem like my fan is triggered by temperature changes
[04:27] <Trae> sfllaw, if there is anything I can do for you to help let me know.  I can't code but I can be a guinie pig
[04:27] <mjg59> sfllaw: That's the usual case
[04:27] <mjg59> ohoel: Do you have anything in /proc/acpi/fan ?
[04:28] <Trae> sfllaw, as long as you promise not to nuke my laptop *chuckle*
[04:28] <sfllaw> mjg59: The fan kicking in won't instantly have effect.
[04:28] <mjg59> sfllaw: The ACPI spec only lets you do this based on temperatue changes
[04:28] <ohoel> mjg59: no, it's a void
[04:28] <mjg59> sfllaw: I don't see why that's relevant
[04:28] <mjg59> sfllaw: The idea isn't to keep the CPU at a constant temperature
[04:28] <mjg59> ohoel: Then the fan isn't under Linux's control, and will behave identically under Windows
[04:28] <mjg59> So that's unimportant
[04:29] <mjg59> sfllaw: The aim is to keep the temperature below the critical level
[04:29] <mjg59> sfllaw: There's two mechanisms for doing that - increasing the fan speed and decreasing the cpu speed
[04:29] <ohoel> mjg59: are you sure it *shouldn't* be under linux's control, though?
[04:29] <mjg59> sfllaw: The issue in this bug would, if anything, appear to be that the second of these isn't working
[04:29] <sfllaw> mjg59: Right.  If your fan doesn't cool the CPU fast enough, it will keep heating up.  Thermal changes aren't instantaneous.
[04:29] <mjg59> ohoel: Can you attach dmesg?
[04:30] <mjg59> sfllaw: That's fine, and that's within spec
[04:30] <mjg59> sfllaw: But that's got nothing to do with how long it takes before the fan turns on
[04:30] <mjg59> As long as you ignore the pathological case of the fan not turning on until after the machine has turned off, of course
[04:30] <sfllaw> mjg59: Didn't ohoel claim that the fan didn't turn on when his laptop was already too hot?
[04:31] <mjg59> sfllaw: If the fan isn't in /proc/acpi/fan, that's not under our control
[04:31] <Burgundavia> mjg59: quick question: I have been having occurances where my laptop turns on full at bootup and never turns off. However, it is totally intermittant. What can I do to usefully debug the issue?
[04:31] <sfllaw> mjg59: Fair enough.
[04:31] <mjg59> But that's besides the point - we /still/ shouldn't hit the critical shutoff because the passive cooling should kick in
[04:31] <mjg59> Burgundavia: What machine?
[04:31] <ohoel> mjg59: done
[04:31] <Burgundavia> mjg59: Toshiba Tecra A5
[04:31] <Trae> Burgundavia, I've seen that too.
[04:31] <Burgundavia> Trae: only on some bootups but not others?
[04:32] <Trae> Burgundavia, yup
[04:32] <Trae> hpDV4150us
[04:32] <mjg59> HPs have entirely different problems
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[04:32] <mjg59> I'm keeping an eye on that
[04:33] <Trae> Burgundavia, if I suspend, the fan goes to "normal" operating mode
[04:33] <Trae> Burgundavia, give that a try
[04:33] <mjg59> sfllaw: So the issue before was with machines that don't have ACPI throttling, just voltage scaling
[04:33] <Burgundavia> Trae: that doesn't work for me. I think we are seeing different issues, even though they have the same symptoms
[04:33] <Trae> like my fan now is on full bore since I powered up the lappie.... but when I suspendk it'll throttle down and act nicely
[04:33] <Hobbsee> morning all
[04:33] <mjg59> Which requires the use of the ondemand governor rather than the performance one, otherwise the kernel can't slow down the CPU
[04:33] <Trae> Burgundavia, ahh okies sorry
[04:33] <Burgundavia> no worries
[04:34] <mjg59> We need to fix that, but it doesn't seem that it fixes ohoel's problem
[04:34] <mjg59> (And what's the bug number for this again? Launchpad has decided to stop mailing me)
[04:34] <Trae> Burgundavia, back... just suspended, and then resumed... fan is off now :)
[04:34] <Burgundavia> mjg59: for my bug?
[04:34] <Trae> crazy
[04:34] <ohoel> probably irrelevant, but every time I get the critical shutdown the fan suddenly starts going crazy before poweroff
[04:34] <ohoel> mjg59:  bug 22336
[04:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 22336 in acpi-support "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/22336
[04:35] <Trae> ohoel, yah me too
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[04:36] <mjg59> Trae: HPs are a different problem
[04:36] <Trae> mjg59, why are the symptoms the same?
[04:36] <mjg59> Trae: Because both problems involve the machine getting too hot and switching off
[04:37] <Trae> mjg59, ahh hehe
[04:37] <mjg59> There are many ways of getting to that situation
[04:37] <mjg59> ohoel: Ok, the fact that there's nothing in /proc/acpi/fan is correct
[04:37] <mjg59> Your fan is under BIOS control
[04:37] <Trae> ok, I'll shush... but please, let me know if I an help you guys in any way
[04:37] <mjg59> It's absolutely not a problem that it only starts spinning faster a short while after you increase the system load
[04:37] <mjg59> It's tied to temperature, not CPU speed
[04:38] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: your blog is already #2 in google searchs for upstart
[04:39] <ohoel> mjg59: if I leave the machine idle for hours, it's flaming hot when I return, which leads me to believe it's load-activated rather than temperature activated
[04:40] <mjg59> ohoel: Well, it is an elitegroup
[04:40] <ohoel> yea :(
[04:40] <mjg59> So I guess it's /possible/ that they're that stupid
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[04:41] <dcode> is there a way to get more detailed information from debian-installer?  like why a particular step is failing?
[04:42] <mjg59> dcode: alt+F3 or alt+F4 should give you more information
[04:42] <dcode> ah....got it....thnx.....  /target is still ro....that would explain why base system would fail
[04:42] <dcode> :)
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[04:46] <Keybuk> meh
[04:46] <Keybuk> for my next project, I will pick something I can fucking attach gdb/strace to
[04:47] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: in other news, upstart already has wikipedia article, has apparently pissed off people from debian and general excited the blogosphere. Congrats on your new found fame ;)
[04:47] <Keybuk> "pissed off people from debian" ?
[04:48] <Keybuk> that bit I hadn't noticed
[04:48] <wasabi> upstart? is that the new init thingy?
[04:48] <grexk> Keybuk: Me either, I was amazed with your upstart...
[04:48] <jdub> Keybuk: "that scott guy, he's just a f@#$king little..."
[04:49] <jdub> UPSTART
[04:49] <ohoel> mjg59: I'm not sure what to think. In windows the fan would sometimes spin up while the machine was idle, so the exterior of the laptop never got really hot like I'm experiencing now
[04:49] <dcode> I read about upstart today on UP....sounded cool
[04:49] <wasabi> Yup. Nice.
[04:49] <mjg59> Keybuk: So, what should we do about powernowd?
[04:49] <wasabi> Nice name. I heard the convo in here, and instantly associated it with init.
[04:49] <Keybuk> mjg59: ondemand works nicely for me
[04:49] <ohoel> I wish I could figure out whether there's a temperor sensor at all here, 
[04:49] <mjg59> Keybuk: Right
[04:50] <mjg59> Keybuk: So we need the init script to deal with that
=== wasabi installs upstart.
[04:56] <ohoel> I'll try contacting ECS+the retailer and ask a bit about the cooling system used, then add it to the bug when/if they reply
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[05:01] <Trae> Keybuk, heh
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[05:21] <Keybuk> so, who wants to fuck their computer over? :)
[05:22] <Hobbsee> hah
=== Hobbsee hides
[05:23] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/packages/
[05:23] <wasabi> Heh. I just did a dist-upgrade, and my initrd.img regenerated no less than 6 times.
[05:23] <wasabi> Total time wasted: 15 minutes
[05:23] <Keybuk> install both upstart and upstart-compat-sysv  (up-to-date edgy only)
[05:23] <wasabi> Keybuk: I'm about to do so.
[05:23] <wasabi> Bringing system up to date first.
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[05:26] <Keybuk> mjg59: interestingly, I can't help but wonder whether the "laptop shuts down" problem is related to the fact I can't boot half the time
[05:27] <Keybuk> the laptop shuts itself down if you don't get to userspace fast enough
[05:27] <mjg59> ?
[05:27] <mjg59> Oh
[05:27] <mjg59> Because fan isn't loaded until then?
[05:27] <wasabi> So upstart scripts in upstart.d are parsed files?
[05:27] <mjg59> Possibly we should link it in
[05:27] <wasabi> Parsed at upstart boot or ?
[05:28] <Keybuk> wasabi: /etc/event.d ... parsed at boot
[05:28] <wasabi> event.d
[05:28] <Keybuk> or whenever they're changed
[05:29] <Trae> Keybuk, heh, what kind of evil have you created?
[05:29] <Trae> oh upstart
[05:30] <Trae> yeah I'll pass on that one
[05:30] <Trae> :)
[05:30] <Keybuk> mjg59: dunno, it usually comes up with some lie like "Critical temperature 102 C reached"
[05:31] <mjg59> Right
[05:31] <Keybuk> which is a bit odd
[05:31] <mjg59> We should probably load the modules earlier
[05:31] <mjg59> Or have them linked in
[05:34] <Keybuk> why do they lie about the temp though?
[05:35] <wasabi> heh. nice.
[05:35] <wasabi> "removing sysvinit in favour of upstart"
[05:35] <mjg59> No clue
[05:35] <Keybuk> wasabi: you'll discover, in a moment, the one "upgrade procedure" bit I haven't worked out yet
[05:36] <wasabi> it still named /sbin/init?
[05:36] <Keybuk> try rebooting ;)
[05:36] <wasabi> seems to be.
[05:36] <wasabi> heh. k
[05:36] <wasabi> brb, maybe. ;)
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[05:38] <wasabi> haha shutdown broke. ;) yay
[05:38] <poningru> mako: awesome pic http://defectivebydesign.org/sites/nodrm.civicactions.net/files/images/ff_boston1.jpg
[05:38] <Keybuk> heh
[05:38] <Keybuk> of course, the shutdown you installed was for upstart ;P
[05:38] <Keybuk> reboot -f would have worked
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[05:46] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: any idea what mvo obsoleted https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-wide-updates
[05:46] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: especially given there is an implemementation in the works
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[05:46] <wasabi> Amazing. WOrked.
[05:47] <wasabi> Nice early console too.
[05:47] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: no idea, he doesn't say
[05:47] <Keybuk> wasabi: heh, I put it there because I couldn't think of anywhere better
[05:47] <Burgundavia> no, he doesn't
[05:47] <wasabi> Something ate Xgl.
[05:47] <wasabi> Probably unrelated though.
[05:47] <wasabi> Well, looks like it works then.
[05:47] <Burgundavia> my mind, of course, wanders into thought of that mysterious landscape-client
[05:47] <wasabi> How is getty handled?
[05:48] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: the what now?
[05:48] <wasabi> inittab style or ?
[05:48] <Keybuk> wasabi: less /etc/event.d/tty[123456] 
[05:48] <wasabi> nice. awesome.
[05:48] <wasabi> these files are fucking CLEAN.
[05:48] <wasabi> what a blessing. ;)
[05:48] <bluefoxicy> ouch
[05:48] <bluefoxicy> wtf.
[05:48] <Keybuk> wasabi: yeah, I'll get around to adding lots of ':' to them later :p
[05:48] <bluefoxicy> I just tried to open an image in GIMP and that kernel bug popped up again >:|
[05:48] <wasabi> It started up Very quick, by the way.
[05:49] <bluefoxicy> [17793612.096000]  BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at virtual address 00000074
[05:49] <wasabi> Obviously moving rc scripts to this will increase it massively.
[05:49] <bluefoxicy>  23:49:11 up 7 days,  2:35,  9 users,  load average: 1.79, 1.17, 0.82
[05:49] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: this thing http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/admin/landscape-client
[05:49] <Keybuk> wasabi: no, you just think it did :p
[05:49] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: what's that? :)
[05:49] <wasabi> Yeah. =)
[05:49] <mjg59> bluefoxicy: Either one of your drivers is scribbling over memory, or your hardware is fucked
[05:49] <wasabi> The console made it felt so.
[05:49] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: I wish I knew
[05:50] <Keybuk> wasabi: *nods* compare bootcharts
[05:50] <Keybuk> wasabi: btw, do you like how I did runlevels? :p
[05:50] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: I wish I could tell you
[05:50] <jdub> Keybuk: you want to shift all main scripts to upstart for edgy?
[05:50] <Keybuk> jdub: no, not for edgy
[05:50] <wasabi> Yeah. As event.d scripts.
[05:50] <wasabi> I'm trying to parse the rc* stuff in here.
[05:51] <Keybuk> wasabi: you can even still run "runlevel" :p
[05:51] <jsgotangco> after the metro memes we can now expect an airlines meme real soon now
[05:51] <wasabi> Looks like this is just running 'rc'
[05:51] <Keybuk> wasabi: yup
[05:52] <wasabi> I need to comprehend the start on rc1/start stuff.
[05:52] <wasabi> Those are just named events?
[05:52] <Keybuk> along with a sick bit of script around it to stick something in utmp (runlevel --set) and make sure the environment is right
[05:52] <Keybuk> yes
[05:52] <Keybuk> rc1/start occurs when the rc1 job is started
[05:52] <Keybuk> it means if you're in the middle of going through rc2, and you "telinit 3", the rc2 process is killed
[05:52] <Keybuk> uh "telinit 1" :p
[05:53] <Keybuk> (telinit is a verrrry trivial program ... it does "start rc$argv1") :p
[05:53] <wasabi> Alright. So basically we just have named events. Each file in event.d has a "start on" line, which lists another named event.
[05:53] <wasabi> and some stop ons.
[05:53] <wasabi> That means stop Me when that event occurs.
[05:53] <Keybuk> yup
[05:53] <wasabi> And start Me when that other event occurs.
[05:53] <Keybuk> http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/upstart.html
[05:53] <wasabi> "startup" is an event generated by ?
[05:53] <Keybuk> upstart itself
[05:54] <wasabi> Makes sense. Some predefined events.
[05:54] <Keybuk> pre-defined are "startup" and "shutdown"
[05:54] <Keybuk> semi-defined are "halt", "reboot", "poweroff" and "maintenance"
[05:54] <wasabi> What about these events rc1/start?
[05:54] <wasabi> What triggers that?
[05:54] <Keybuk> upstart will generate events for jobs as they change state
[05:55] <wasabi> Ahh, jobname/$predefinedname
[05:55] <Keybuk> so jobs can start/stop other jobs
[05:55] <Keybuk> yes
[05:55] <Keybuk> the event stuff isn't *quite* right yet, but it's close enough
[05:55] <Keybuk> (for edgy, at least)
[05:55] <wasabi> I like.
[05:55] <wasabi> The model is much more appropiate than a flat thing, or even launchd.
[05:55] <Keybuk> jobs must have either "exec foo bar baz" or "script ... end script"
[05:56] <Keybuk> which is the thing that's actually run
[05:56] <wasabi> or "respawn"
[05:56] <Keybuk> (respawn foo bar baz is just a short cut)
[05:56] <Keybuk> exec foo baz baz
[05:56] <Keybuk> respawn
[05:56] <Keybuk> -- and --
[05:56] <Keybuk> respawn foo baz baz
[05:56] <Keybuk> are the same :p
[05:56] <wasabi> Ahh.
[05:56] <Keybuk> respawn defines a service instead of a task
[05:56] <Keybuk> eg. the gettys are services, whereas the rcs are tasks
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[05:57] <wasabi> rcS is defined as starting on startup. Does that happen in parallel with other things which "startup"
[05:57] <Keybuk> you can also have scripts run before the job is started, after it's stopped, or between respawns
[05:57] <Keybuk> yes
[05:57] <Keybuk> all jobs are started simultaneously
[05:57] <wasabi> Think it might be better for sysv compat to run after upstart native tasks?
[05:58] <Keybuk> wasabi: maybe, we'll see
[05:58] <wasabi> As things get migrated from sysv to upstart, you would expect them to go in dependency order.
[05:58] <Keybuk> initially we want it the other way round :p
[05:58] <wasabi> Yeah. Heh.
[05:58] <wasabi> It'll have to be built in order.
[05:59] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/example
[05:59] <Keybuk> if you stick that in your /etc/event.d directory and run "start ping" you'll note
[05:59] <Keybuk> 1) you have a /var/run/PINGING with STARTED in it
[05:59] <Keybuk> 2) ping 127.0.0.1 is running
[05:59] <wasabi> gotta get to X.
[05:59] <Keybuk> 3) if you kill the process, it'll come back, and /var/run/PINGING will get a KILLED appended to it
[05:59] <wasabi> Have to fix X. =(
[06:00] <Keybuk> 4) when you "stop ping", the process and file go away
[06:00] <wasabi> hmm. gdm locked up.
[06:00] <Keybuk> heh
[06:00] <Keybuk> just wget :p
[06:00] <wasabi> that's a first.
[06:00] <jdub> Keybuk: will event scripts be hashbang files (maybe with upstart as the binary)?
[06:00] <Keybuk> jdub: NO
[06:00] <wasabi> Haha.
[06:00] <wasabi> event scripts are super simple... two lines:
[06:00] <jdub> Keybuk: so you must use something like service to operate events?
[06:00] <wasabi> start on startup
[06:00] <wasabi> exec command
[06:00] <Keybuk> jdub: yes
[06:01] <jdub> Keybuk: makes policy clear ;)
[06:01] <Keybuk> right, it makes it much more damned obvious what you're trying to do
[06:01] <jdub> Keybuk: taking bets on how long it will be until someone makes a dbus activation frontend? :)
[06:01] <Keybuk> jdub: hoping someone will do something dbusy
[06:02] <wasabi> The management utilities are "start"
[06:02] <wasabi> and apparently, "stop"
[06:02] <Keybuk> and "status"
[06:02] <jdub> Keybuk: so you fully intend for events to be useful to the whole stack (server to desktop, etc)?
[06:02] <wasabi> What about custom events?
[06:02] <Keybuk> wasabi: initctl trigger wibble
[06:02] <wasabi> ahh.
[06:02] <jdub> Keybuk: to the point that upstart could replace swathes of nm?
[06:02] <Keybuk> jdub: don't see why not, though I'd say that upstart isn't a session manager
[06:02] <wasabi> So, simple predefined commands, another initctl one for whatever.
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[06:03] <Keybuk> right
[06:03] <jdub> Keybuk: will you define a standards process for events?
[06:03] <wasabi> Hmm. That is interesting.
[06:03] <Keybuk> jdub: it may be wise
[06:03] <wasabi> THe idea of just using upstart to launch gnome.
[06:03] <wasabi> A per-user copy.
[06:03] <Keybuk> they may end up being namespaced ... e.g. ~jdub/cron/foo
[06:03] <jdub> Keybuk: x-rhgb
[06:05] <jdub> Keybuk: maybe go through lanana?
[06:05] <Keybuk> I'm trying to avoid inventing things before we need them ... which is hard when everyone asks questions :p
[06:05] <jdub> heh
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[06:08] <wasabi__> Keybuk: link to sample ping thing again?
[06:08] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/example
[06:08] <jdub> PINGTHING
[06:09] <wasabi__> So, just saved the file.
[06:09] <Keybuk> right, copy it into /etc/event.d
[06:09] <wasabi__> ahh. cool.
[06:09] <wasabi__> worked.
[06:12] <wasabi__> That's about the coolest thing ever. Already migrated one of my init scripts over.
[06:12] <Keybuk> heh, careful cause the config format ain't fixed yet
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[06:14] <wasabi__> Hmm. sysvcompat stuff should advertise each script that it runs as an event.
[06:14] <Keybuk> "advertise" ?
[06:14] <wasabi__> trigger.
[06:14] <wasabi__> So that I can have an upstart event that depends on a particular rc script being run.
[06:14] <Keybuk> that's a good idea
[06:14] <wasabi__> Would ease migration.
[06:16] <wasabi__> Hmm. Lets see. I want to make gdm run... in rc5, ... S13.
[06:16] <wasabi__> But it really depends on S12dbus.
[06:16] <wasabi__> Maybe.
[06:16] <wasabi__> Actually gdm probably doesn't.
[06:19] <wasabi__> Or maybe simply have it trigger sysvcompat_gdm/start
=== wasabi__ shrugs.
[06:19] <wasabi__> I dunno.
[06:26] <bluefoxicy> when you kill -9 something should it die
[06:28] <Keybuk> if you're determined that it stops, you could just do "stop foo"
[06:28] <Keybuk> :p
[06:29] <jdub> Keybuk: start-stop-daemon - required?
[06:30] <Keybuk> jdub: useless
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[06:38] <specialKevin> does anybody know how ubuntu does the vga out automatically, because with gentoo or foresight I have to have the projector plugged in on boot but with ubuntu I can plug it in any time after boot
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[06:43] <leoncamel_> hi, folks. how can I install gcc-3.2 into Ubuntu 5.10 ?
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[06:46] <azeem> leoncamel_: please ask in #ubuntu
[06:47] <Keybuk> /usr/include/sys/types.h:46: error: conflicting types for 'loff_t'
[06:47] <Keybuk> /usr/include/linux/types.h:30: error: previous declaration of 'loff_t' was here
[06:47] <Keybuk> ...errr...?
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[06:47] <Keybuk> did someone break the kernel?
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[06:48] <Phoul> Hello, I was wondering where i may make a request for a deb to be updated?
[06:49] <grexk> Phould: backports in the forum.
[06:49] <Phoul> umm...
[06:49] <desrt> Phoul; generally speaking,  updated versions of packages are not uploaded to the distribution.  only security and bug fixes
[06:50] <Phoul> I ment to the repo but okay
[06:50] <Phoul> Dang
[06:50] <desrt> Phoul; right.  not to the repo either.
[06:50] <desrt> Phoul; you have to wait for the next release to come out (in 6 months) or use backports
[06:50] <Phoul> backports - ?
[06:51] <desrt> somewhat unsupported -- updated versions of packages as requested by users
[06:51] <desrt> but installing them can break the upgradability of your machine to future official ubuntu releases
[06:51] <Phoul> ...
[06:51] <desrt> you should generally avoid backports unless you know what you're doing
[06:51] <Phoul> Thats lovely lol
[06:51] <Phoul> Uhh
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[06:51] <Phoul> I just wanna update libmpd & mpd too 0.12 to work with emphasis
[06:52] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: long time no see!
[06:52] <desrt> Phoul; this sounds like something unlikely to be in backports anyway
[06:52] <Phoul> :(
[06:52] <desrt> Phoul; an alternative is to install edgy
[06:52] <Phoul> Hmmm, I guess i will just go source then, thanks for the help
[06:52] <desrt> Phoul; it has new versions of stuff... but it's beta
[06:52] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: hey! yea been pretty busy
[06:53] <desrt> Phoul; use at your own risk but in practise it works fairly well
[06:53] <Phoul> desrt, edgy is most likely very unstable lol
[06:53] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: why not in #ubuntu-docs or marketing?
[06:53] <desrt> Phoul; using it right now.  it doesn't give me any trouble.
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[06:53] <Phoul> uhh well wouldnt it be safer to just update the one package with svn then to update the whole system to something beta?
[06:53] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: just did a clean install on a macbook pro, still setting it all up :)
[06:53] <desrt> Phoul; you're probably right
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[07:35] <bluefoxicy> so guys.
[07:35] <bluefoxicy> I'm doing heap measurement.
[07:36] <bluefoxicy> thunderbird currently has 14577269 bytes malloc()'d, and the sbrk() + mmap() growth related to malloc() is 23207936 bytes
[07:36] <bluefoxicy> (I have seen up to 60% waste)
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[08:37] <ohoel> bit by the overheating "bug" again
[08:38] <ohoel> mjg59 / sfllaw; is the fan driver loaded at "loading essential drivers" ?
[08:41] <ohoel> my fan never seems to start until that message has been displayed
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[08:56] <zyga> hello
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[09:27] <AnAnt> what does "bashism" mean ?
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[09:40] <dholbach> good morning
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[09:53] <Burgundavia> hmm, should I munge the CommunityEdgyIdeas into IdeaPool?
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[09:55] <dholbach> that'd probably make the ideapool pages even more overfull :)
[09:56] <Burgundavia> right. I need to do a cleaning on IdeaPool as well
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[09:57] <Kagou> hi
[09:57] <zyga> mvo: hi
[09:57] <mvo> hi zyga
[09:57] <zyga> mvo: I've got some good news :)
[09:57] <mvo> zyga: ohhh?
[09:57] <zyga> first off I'm nearly finished mirroring the entire repo
[09:58] <Burgundavia> mvo: quick question: why did you obsolete the nwu spec?
[09:58] <zyga> second, we only have to look at alternatives with $ in the target name which is far easier (not so many)
[09:58] <zyga> and I'll merge your data extractor into one extract-all-stuff program that simply runs over the mirror
[09:59] <zyga> should be ready by midnight
[09:59] <mvo> zyga: great! \o/
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[10:19] <cwillu> I was in #ubuntu, and was pointed here:  is there any way to downgrade to an older xorg package (in the range of a week to a couple months)?  I'm experiencing some breakage, but I'd rather not post a bug until I know if it's a new hardware fault or not.
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[10:31] <seb128> Mithrandir: hey. How is going knot work?
[10:32] <Mithrandir> seb128: I don't have enough install reports yet, unfortunately, so help with that'd be appreciated.
[10:32] <Mithrandir> particularly, I don't have anything about PPCs.
[10:32] <ogra> ppc edubuntu is fine
[10:32] <ogra> :)
[10:32] <seb128> Mithrandir: I don't have ppc but I can give a try to i386 or amd64 if that's useful
[10:32] <ogra> i'm waition for the live iso to finish rsyncing ...
[10:32] <Mithrandir> seb128: it is, yes.  -desktop ones, please?
[10:32] <seb128> ok
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[10:44] <mvo> Mithrandir: I don't have a ppc neither, but I could do i386/amd64 if needed too
[10:45] <Mithrandir> mvo: if you could do -desktop of what seb doesn't that'd be nice, yes.
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[10:48] <seb128> mvo: I'm downloading i386 atm, feel free to start with amd64
[10:48] <mempf> what is the current status of the knot 2 release?
[10:48] <mvo> seb128, Mithrandir: ok, it will be -desktop on amd64 then
[10:49] <infinity> mempf: Read the 10 or so lines since you joined.
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[10:50] <mempf> im not sure what it all means
[10:50] <mempf> lol
[10:50] <infinity> mempf: It means exactly what it says.  We need more people to test the the ISO images before we release.
[10:50] <infinity> mempf: If you have a powerpc machine, that would be great if you helped.
[10:51] <mempf> i don't :(
[10:51] <mempf> i got i386 and amd64
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=== dholbach will do amd64 desktop testing
[10:53] <mempf> il gladly do any testing thats required
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[10:54] <dholbach> Mithrandir: did we spin dvd images as well?
[10:54] <Mithrandir> dholbach: no, haven't done that.
[10:54] <dholbach> Mithrandir: if so, i could test some of those
[10:54] <dholbach> ok
[10:54] <Mithrandir> mempf: testing on i386/amd64 would be nice too, so just grab an image and test.
[10:55] <mempf> from here?
[10:55] <mempf> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/
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[10:56] <Mithrandir> yup
[10:56] <mempf> ok
[10:56] <Mithrandir> ogra: is edubuntu ready?
[10:56] <Mithrandir> janimo: how's the Xubuntu images looking?
[10:57] <Mithrandir> s/s/re/
[10:57] <ogra> Mithrandir, not yet ... still testing
[10:57] <ogra> but it looks good ...
[10:58] <Mithrandir> Kamion: have you had a chance to test ppc?
[10:58] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[10:59] <seb128> hey hey jdub
[10:59] <ogra> GOOD MORNING JDUB !
[10:59] <dholbach> why does my Cd writer hate me
[11:00] <ogra> hate it back
[11:01] <dholbach> ogra: you don't seem to be relaxed :-)
[11:01] <ogra> i am ... totally
[11:02] <ogra> :)
[11:02] <Mithrandir> Kamion: my /proc/cmdline says root=/dev/sda1 ...
[11:02] <Kagou> is that http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ the iso to test for knot2 ? If it's not too late i can test it too
[11:03] <Mithrandir> Kagou: yes, it's the correct one.
[11:03] <Mithrandir> Kamion: (i386 alternate)
[11:03] <Kagou> thanks Mithrandir. I burn it and try it
[11:04] <dholbach> does anybody else have sudden problems with burning on RW media?
[11:06] <ogra> no
[11:06] <Mithrandir> dholbach: my dvd-rw is a bit pesky, but I think that's just old media.  I've been using the same disc for about a year.
[11:06] <ogra> at leat not on DVDRW
[11:06] <ogra> *least
[11:06] <dholbach> Mithrandir: me too, but it's suddenly complaining about all media now and for dapper release testing it was still fine :)
[11:07] <Zdra> dholbach: it works here
[11:07] <dholbach> hrm
[11:08] <Zdra> cd-rw on edgy, it blank it and burn without problem
[11:09] <Mithrandir> my firefox fonts look really, really bad.
[11:09] <ogra> my terminal fonts on ppc do as well
[11:09] <ogra> but ff is fine here
[11:10] <Kagou> dholbach: burn ok here
[11:10] <Mithrandir> ogra: www.ubuntu.com has good fonts?  (That's my test site in this case)
[11:10] <ogra> Mithrandir, oh, right the fonts are crappy 
[11:10] <ogra> i havent looked at content :)
[11:11] <dholbach> ... just at pictures :-p
[11:11] <Mithrandir> ...
[11:11] <ogra> :P
[11:12] <ogra> dholbach, what changed in the vendor logo handling ? i have an ubuntu logo in my menu ...
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[11:12] <ogra> seems it doesnt pick up the edubuntu one
[11:13] <dholbach> ogra: what is supposed to show up? which icon is that, where is it installed?
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[11:14] <ogra> in /usr/share/icons/gartoon/48x48/apps/distributor-logo.png 
[11:15] <dholbach> maybe you need it in a different size now?
[11:15] <ogra> ah, it gets picked up in the TangoBrown theme  
[11:15] <dholbach> 32x32 icons were added to half of the world
[11:15] <ogra> where i have a 24x24 one
[11:15] <dholbach> TangoBrown theme?
[11:15] <ogra> yes
[11:16] <ogra> the icontheme we ship for th eplain edubuntu flavor for older students
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[11:17] <dholbach> ah
=== mvo notices that a lot is untranslated in knot2, even stuff that should really be available like the "applications" menu
[11:19] <ogra> its fine here
[11:19] <ogra> at least on the installs ... havent tried the liveCDs yet
[11:19] <mvo> I'm on the livecd right now
[11:20] <ogra> heh, ian mrdock praises windows+vmware because debians network manager and suspend are broken ... http://ianmurdock.com/?p=350
[11:21] <Mithrandir> mvo: gnome-app-install is broken on my installed system.
[11:21] <Mithrandir> "ImportError: No module named gdbm"
[11:21] <mvo> Mithrandir: oh crap, the missing gdbm?
[11:21] <ogra> mvo, right, i just booted the first liveCd, all english here, but thats cased by the missing langpacks i guess
[11:22] <dholbach> must be a version where it's build-depends instead of depends - i thought it got fixed in the meantime :/
[11:22] <Mithrandir> I need to grab a bit of food, hopefully Colin will be back when I am.
[11:22] <ogra> hrm
[11:22] <mvo> Mithrandir: can/should I upload a fixed g-a-i?
[11:22] <ogra> and the flickering panel menu is still existent on ppc here
[11:23] <ogra> didnt we drop the broken link in menu-xdg ?
[11:23] <janimo> Mithrandir: there seem to be no new livecds, I was waiting to test those
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[11:24] <janimo> as the imegas from aug 29 were tested and ok'd by Gloubiboulga and crimsun IIRC
[11:24] <janimo> the new one should have the two uploads I made yesterday
[11:25] <mvo> is the live-cd more memory hungry?!? my testsystem with 256 mb ram (that used to work ok for -desktop) is now hardly usable because of slowness
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[11:38] <Mithrandir> janimo: livecd builds running
[11:38] <janimo> Mithrandir: thanks
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[11:42] <Mithrandir> mvo: no, I don't think I want a new g-a-i since Scott uploaded a lot of stuff last night which would probably cause more pain.
[11:42] <Mithrandir> mvo: I'll rather say "known problem"
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[11:42] <mvo> ok
[11:42] <mvo> I will do a new upload then immediately when we are unfrozen
[11:42] <Mithrandir> thanks
[11:43] <Mithrandir> janimo: livecds done
[11:43] <mvo> what about the RAM requirements? known problem as well?
[11:43] <Mithrandir> mvo: what about which ram requirements?
[11:44] <mvo> Mithrandir: it seems that the live-cd requires more ram nowdays. my very unscientific test is that it is very very slow on my 256 mb testmachine
[11:44] <mvo> that used to be better I think in the dapper days
[11:45] <mvo> but if noone else noticed anything it may just be me ..
[11:45] <Mithrandir> mvo: if so, I'm inclined to blame gnome or something else using all your memory.
[11:45] <seb128> don't blame GNOME!
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[11:45] <Mithrandir> seb128: does edgy's gnome use more, less or the same amount of memory as dapper's?
[11:46] <seb128> I would say the same amount
[11:46] <Mithrandir> mvo: might be the change of scheduler.. try booting with elevator=anticipatory ?
[11:47] <mvo> Mithrandir: interessting, I will try that (once this install here is finished)
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[11:49] <Mithrandir> mvo: also, my update-notifier's "software sources" dialog shows 4.10 as still supported?
[11:50] <mvo> Mithrandir: that is just the description text, but it is misleading, I will change it
[11:52] <Kagou> knot2 test. 2 cd recorded, and the 2 don't work on notebook but work on PC. Boot stop on "mounting root system". Am I alone with that problem ?
[11:52] <Mithrandir> Kagou: after you
[11:53] <Mithrandir>  have installed?
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[11:54] <Kagou> Mithrandir: no. Boot on live cd. Choosing French language. Normal Boot. and usplash screen, cd stay on "mounting root filesystem" ... May be it's a cd-recorder problem. I'm trying on a cd-rw
[11:55] <Kagou> if i'm alone, it's certainly a hardware problem.
[11:55] <sladen> Kagou: what speed were they burnt at?  Does the 'md5sum test' succeed?
[11:55] <Kagou> first at 24X and second at 8x
[11:56] <Mithrandir> Kagou: can you remove "quiet" from the kernel command line and see if you get any kind of useful feedback?
[11:56] <Kagou> yes after burn finished i will do this
[11:57] <janimo> Kagou: maybe the check CD option in the boot menu helps too
[11:58] <Kagou> janimo: the check CD, freeze at the same point that the normal boot
[11:58] <janimo> ah
[12:01] <Kagou> i'll be back
[12:04] <mvo> Mithrandir: another thing. the new desktop cd contains some package too, but apparently the CD is not added via apt-cdrom or apt_pkg.GetCDRom.Add() during install. is that known too?
[12:05] <Mithrandir> mvo: sounds like an espresso problem; bug Colin. :-)
[12:05] <mvo> Mithrandir: I will :)
[12:06] <mvo> Mithrandir: other than this, the install looks pretty good!
[12:06] <Mithrandir> mvo: good, thanks.
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[12:11] <ogra-live> mvo, did you check if dma is enabled for your CDROM ?
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[12:14] <mvo> has anyone tested the live-cd in 256mb? its painful :/
=== mvo reboots with the scheduler change 
[12:15] <mvo> ogra-live: no, when a xterm comes up I will test. this may take a while though ;)
[12:16] <mvo> ogra-live: yes, dma is on for me
[12:18] <ogra-live> well, was worth a look 
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[12:23] <Mithrandir> hmm, so, do we have anybody doing ppc tests?
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[12:24] <mempf> i have a problem with the latest daily-live build
[12:24] <mempf> after usplash it ends up at a blank screen
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[12:24] <Mithrandir> mempf: X never starts for you?
[12:25] <mempf> dont think so
[12:25] <mempf> the alternate isntall works
[12:25] <mempf> but the daily-live wont load X
[12:25] <Mithrandir> does the "safe video" option work on the desktop cd work for you?
[12:25] <ogra-live> urgh
[12:25] <mempf> il try
[12:25] <Mithrandir> also, X works after the alternate install?
[12:25] <ogra-live> Kamion, something is wrong with the edubuntu preseed file, edubuntu-server doesnt get installed
[12:25] <mempf> yes
[12:27] <mempf> safe video mode does teh same
[12:27] <mvo> Mithrandir: booting with the alternative scheduler did not help, it is still pretty much unusable in 256mb
[12:28] <zyga> mvo: what takes most memory?
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[12:30] <mvo> zyga: no idea yet, I'm still waiting for a xterm to come up
[12:30] <mvo> :)
[12:31] <zyga> argh
[12:31] <mempf> I removed splash from the boot settings and it loaded X and GDM
[12:32] <Mithrandir> mempf: ok, please file a bug on usplash giving all the information you can.
[12:34] <mempf> i found a thread on the forums with the same issue as me but on a installtion not the live cd
[12:34] <mempf> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=245468
[12:37] <Mithrandir> ok, please make sure a bug is filed
[12:37] <mempf> im doing that right now
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[12:40] <Sp4rKy> hey
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[12:42] <mempf> there we go
[12:42] <mempf> filed
[12:42] <mempf> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/58455
[12:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58455 in usplash "Can't Boot with splash boot option." [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[12:43] <sladen> dholbach: I've added something to bug #47602, do you might if I re-open it---I'm not sure "Reject" is the best status when it's been reported and confirmed by multiple people
[12:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47602 in gnome-panel "gnome panels are empty (show nothing) after login" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47602
[12:43] <dholbach> hum, it was just John Florian on the bug
[12:44] <dholbach> seb128, you and I asked questions, nobody confirmed
[12:44] <dholbach> can you add information of which bug it's supposed to be a duplicate?
[12:45] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: any chance you could test the ubuntu ppc cds too?  Apparently, none of our regular PPC folks are about..
[12:45] <ogra-live> Mithrandir, yes, but it takes a while, i haventr rsynced the isos since some weeks
[12:45] <sladen> dholbach: is gnome-panel responsible for starting one of the applets;  could it be one of the applets (eg. weather/keyboard/clock) that would be blocking?
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[12:46] <ogra-live> wow, X on th ei386 live took about 10 mins to start here (on  a turion machine)
[12:46] <dholbach> sladen: possibly
[12:46] <ogra-live> oh
[12:46] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: well, if we have to wait, we have to wait.
[12:46] <ogra-live> and now i hear the repeated login sound
[12:46] <ogra-live> seems stuck 
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[12:47] <ogra-live> killing esd solved it, but it seems my alsa driver is broken or something ...
[12:52] <seb128> Mithrandir: i386 desktop liveCD works fine for me
[12:52] <Mithrandir> seb128: great, thanks.  Installation worked fine too?
[12:53] <seb128> Mithrandir: I've no spare partition on that box but I'll try on my laptop now
[12:54] <Mithrandir> seb128: thanks a lot.
[12:54] <Mithrandir> seb128: you don't happen to have a ppc, do you?
[12:54] <sladen> dholbach: any idea how I'd debug it?
[12:56] <seb128> Mithrandir: nop
[12:56] <Kamion> mvo: lack of apt-cdrom fixed in my local tree now
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[12:56] <Kamion> ogra-live: can I have log files of edubuntu-server not being installed?
[12:56] <dholbach> sladen: apart from using strace, gdb no, sorry
[12:57] <ogra-live> Kamion, yes, next install, i'm just installing amd64 over it
[12:57] <Kamion> Mithrandir: sorry I'm late. I'm downloading edgy-desktop-powerpc now but it'll take a while.
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[12:57] <Kamion> ogra-live: argh, sigh
[12:57] <Kamion> ogra-live: you need to save log files when there's a problem
[12:57] <Kamion> ogra-live: which boot option did you select?
[12:58] <ogra-live> well, i want to finish the testing ... 
[12:58] <ogra-live> the default one ...
[12:58] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, sure.
[12:58] <mvo> Kamion: cool, thanks
[12:58] <ogra-live> its not like we need to fix that now 
[12:59] <ogra-live> it installs fine ... telling people to install edubuntu-server manually in known issues is appropriate (and i fear Keybuks changes in a rebuild ;) )
[12:59] <Kamion> ogra-live: that depends on the other consequences of that bug
[12:59] <Kamion> it might not be an isolated bug
[01:00] <ogra-live> right, but i wont do a rebuild anyways ...# 
[01:01] <seb128> dholbach: debug what?
[01:01] <ogra-live> since i dont want upstart right now, where *buntu uses sysvinit
[01:01] <ogra-live> s/where/while/
[01:01] <dholbach> seb128: bug 47602
[01:01] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47602 in gnome-panel "gnome panels are empty (show nothing) after login" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47602
[01:02] <ogra-live> Kamion, or are Keybuks uploads from yesterday locked in the queue ?
[01:02] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: I'd recommend not doing rebuilds now unless you absolutely have to.
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[01:03] <ogra-live> exactly
[01:03] <seb128> dholbach: that would be a good question for vuntz ;)
[01:03] <Kamion> ogra-live: no, we were technically unable to freeze the distribution, unfortunately
[01:03] <seb128> Mithrandir: doesn't work on my laptop, after the "configure x" on usplash I get a blank screen with just a cursor on the top-left corner
[01:04] <mempf> seb128: Same here but no cursor
[01:04] <Mithrandir> seb128: uh-hu.  Can you try without splash on the command line?
[01:05] <seb128> Mithrandir: trying now
[01:05] <Kamion> ogra-live: although upstart 0.2.0-1 binaries aren't there
[01:05] <ogra-live> but the sysvinit deps are all gone as i understood the changelogs
[01:06] <Kamion> ah yes, upstart is stuck in NEW on i386, and FTBFS elsewhere
[01:06] <Kamion> ogra-live: but they were unnecessary
[01:06] <ogra-live> who knows what consequences that has :)
[01:06] <Kamion> sysvinit was Essential: yes
[01:06] <ogra-live> ah
[01:06] <Kamion> absolutely bugger-all
[01:06] <Mithrandir> sysvinit is still priority: required
[01:06] <seb128> Mithrandir: hum, it must have been waiting on some input, I pressed some keys and it continued booting in text mode then
[01:07] <Kamion> and upstart is still in universe
[01:07] <seb128> Mithrandir: will trying without splash next
[01:07] <Mithrandir> seb128: uh, that's crack.
[01:07] <Mithrandir> seb128: thanks.
[01:07] <seb128> Mithrandir: I've the issue on my box too
[01:07] <seb128> Mithrandir: when it needs to check disks I got a blank screen
[01:07] <seb128> I know it's checking disk because disk is working
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[01:07] <seb128> but first time it happened I restarted the box to figure it was on disk checking
[01:08] <seb128> s/got/get
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[01:13] <shining> ahah, I love the "unconfirmed" status of gnome bug 323064
[01:13] <mempf> I fixed my usplash issue as well
[01:13] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 323064 in general "the panel applications menu is displayed empty with gamin 0.1.7/inotify" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=323064
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[01:14] <mempf> pressing ctrl+alt+F3 makes the cd finish booting
[01:14] <mempf> jsut like seb128
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[01:19] <zyga> anyone seen keybuk?
[01:20] <Hobbsee> zyga: he was around earlier
[01:21] <StevenK> He's probably staring at the upstart code wondering how to make it more evil.
[01:25] <zyga> upstart crashes my session often
[01:25] <zyga> or rather: it works the *second* time I login
[01:25] <zyga> the first one simply dies a moment after logging in
[01:29] <ogra-live> meh
[01:29] <ogra-live> why is the livecd user udi 999
[01:30] <Kamion> ogra-live: so that user-setup works smoothly
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[01:30] <Kamion> (in ubiquity)
[01:30] <ogra-live> ah
[01:31] <ogra-live> its a bit odd for my ext2 usbdisk :) 
[01:31] <ogra-live> all files are owned by 1000.1000
[01:33] <Kamion> that would only work by coincidence anyway
[01:33] <ogra-live> right ... i never had that issue, so i never thought about it :)
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[01:55] <ogra-live> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/syslog
[01:55] <ogra-live> do you need any other logs ? 
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[01:57] <seb128> Mithrandir: i386 ubiquity install from the desktop CD worked fine on my laptop
[01:57] <seb128> (i386)
[01:58] <Mithrandir> seb128: yay, thanks.
[01:58] <seb128> np
[01:58] <Mithrandir> then we're just lacking positive powerpc reports and acks from xubuntu and edubuntu.
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[01:59] <ogra-live> Mithrandir, apart from amd64 live i tested everything .... all fine 
[01:59] <ogra-live> amd64 running ...
[02:00] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: ok, cool.
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[02:01] <ogra-live> ok, amd64 done ...
[02:01] <ogra-live> Mithrandir, edubuntu is all fine, apart from the fact the edubuntu-server needs to be installed manually ...
[02:02] <Kagou> Mithrandir: my problems was on booting was hardware. (bad cd, or bad burning). Now i'm finishing the installation on my notebook. First impression for knot2 at home is okay.
=== Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir 
[02:02] <ogra-live> ubuntu desktop ppc rsync tells me its done in about 20min
[02:02] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: I'll document that in the release notes, then.
[02:02] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: cool.
[02:02] <ogra-live> thanks
=== Mithrandir tickles the Hobbsee back
[02:02] <Hobbsee> hey!
[02:03] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: when does the freeze stop?  i've got two fixes.
[02:03] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: soon.  I need to get successful ppc installation reports first.
[02:03] <Hobbsee> oh right
[02:05] <ogra-live> Mithrandir, suspend still isnt supposed to work on the liveCD, right ? 
[02:06] <ogra-live> or hibernate ...
[02:06] <Mithrandir> ogra-live: correct.
[02:06] <ogra-live> then we should hide the options in the logout menu :)
[02:07] <ogra-live> i'll have to look at that for ltsp as well ... so i'll see if i can add a patch for the live session too ...
[02:08] <Mithrandir> casper-reconfigure /root gnome-power-manager chroot /root su $USERNAME -- gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/gnome-power-manager/can_hibernate false
[02:08] <Mithrandir> uh
[02:08] <Mithrandir> it does turn off hibernate and tells gpm to reconfigure itself.
[02:09] <Mithrandir> if that's wrong, please file a bug with a patch
[02:09] <ogra-live> well, gnome-session doesnt seem to care about gdm for the suspend hibernate options at all ... unlike for shutdown and reboot
[02:09] <ogra-live> so i guess thats the bug
[02:10] <seb128> ogra-live: gnome-power-manager is used for sleep and hibernate
[02:10] <seb128> ogra-live: gdm is used for reboot and shutdown
[02:10] <seb128> I think I'll change that to use g-p-m for those too
[02:10] <ogra-live> seb128, ok
[02:10] <seb128> we reverted that for dapper because we had not splash on shutdown or reboot from g-p-m
[02:11] <ogra-live> but then i still need a fix for the items being shown in a ssh session (ltsp)
[02:11] <seb128> if g-p-m is used you can change the gconf keys
[02:11] <seb128> like can_suspend
[02:11] <seb128> and can_hibernate
[02:11] <seb128> set them to wrong
[02:11] <ogra-live> the gdm part chedcks if i'm logged in locally ...gpm doesnt
[02:11] <seb128> false rather
[02:11] <seb128> then write a patch for g-p-m? :)
[02:12] <ogra-live> so i dont see shutdown/reboot on logout ... but hibernate/suspend
[02:12] <ogra-live> (on a thin client)
[02:12] <seb128> the way to go is to use g-p-m
[02:12] <ogra-live> hrm
[02:13] <seb128> people should not forced to use gdm as login manager to have those feature, etc
[02:13] <ogra-live> gnome-session is easier to patch :P
[02:13] <Kamion> ogra-live: I'd like to see /var/cache/debconf/config.dat too, if you could
[02:13] <seb128> so let's fix g-p-m
[02:16] <ogra-live> Kamion, uploaded
[02:18] <Kamion> Name: tasksel/first
[02:18] <Kamion> Value: edubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-server
[02:18] <Kamion> hmm, looks ok ...
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[02:18] <Kamion> oh, hmm, I wonder
[02:18] <Kamion> yeah, ok, it's a tasksel/seeds bug and only affects edubuntu
[02:18] <Kamion> note how edubuntu-server isn't in /usr/share/tasksel/ubuntu-tasks.desc
[02:19] <ogra> oh lucky me :)
[02:19] <Kamion> I'll get it fixed
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[02:19] <ogra> thanks !
[02:20] <ogra> nicely the bug showed my a wrong dependency of edubuntu-server i else would never have recognized :)
[02:20] <ogra> s/my/me/
[02:20] <Kamion> oh, for crying out loud, I fixed this but apparently never uploaded it
[02:21] <ogra> heh
[02:21] <Hobbsee> i believe ogra did similar with rss-glx
[02:21] <ogra> well, finding the other bug was worth it ;)
[02:21] <Kamion> uploaded
[02:21] <Kamion> thanks for that
[02:21] <ogra> thaks as well :)
[02:21] <ogra> *thanks
[02:22] <ogra> Hobbsee, the big screensaver bugfixing party starts after feature freeze :)
[02:22] <Hobbsee> ogra: true that.
[02:23] <HiddenWolf> ogra, heh, start with art-team looking at and tossing out the wacky screensavers. ;)
[02:23] <ogra> electricsheep needs some fixes as well ...
[02:24] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: let's keep all the mathematical drawing thingies!!!!
[02:24] <ogra> HiddenWolf, why ? dont you like sabdfls selection ? 
[02:24] <HiddenWolf> ogra, some of them are great, if they ran at half speed for instance. :)
=== sladen tips a hat at rodarvus 
[02:25] <_ion> Electricsheep needs bittorrent support. :-)
[02:25] <ogra> haha
[02:25] <_ion> The Windows version has it already, but i don't know if it's even being developed for the Linux port. :-(
[02:25] <ogra> HiddenWolf, get a slower machine :P
[02:26] <tepsipakki> kamion: howdy. is there a (easy) way to disable the console during install somehow?
[02:26] <HiddenWolf> ogra, I've had quite a few "what the heck, is it saturday-night" kinda moments. Looked like a disco. :)
=== ogra never heard complaints the the screensavers are to fast ... thats really a new one
[02:26] <Kamion> tepsipakki: don't understand?
[02:26] <ogra> s/the the/that the/
[02:26] <rodarvus> sladen, hi!
[02:27] <tepsipakki> Kamion: I'm thinking of security, since if I have a machine installing itself on a public place, anyone can open the console..
[02:27] <rodarvus> what did I do this time? :)
[02:27] <Kamion> tepsipakki: that really is "don't do that then"
[02:27] <tepsipakki> nooo ;)
[02:27] <Kamion> tepsipakki: you could console=ttyS0 and fail to attach a serial console, I suppose
[02:27] <Kamion> no idea if that would actually work :)
[02:27] <zul> rodarvus: death and destruction
[02:27] <tepsipakki> I'll need to experiment that
[02:28] <tepsipakki> we have now ~220 dappers here ;)
[02:28] <Kamion> tepsipakki: or if you have it entirely preseeded, delete the second vc from /etc/inittab and SIGUSR1 init (or whatever the signal is to make it restart)
[02:28] <sladen> rodarvus: sorted out Nvidia crappness
[02:28] <rodarvus> haha
[02:28] <rodarvus> zul, thats the usual ;)
[02:29] <tepsipakki> Kamion: hmm, that sounds good. although, the console is useful for debugging, so if a password protection could be possible, then.. :)
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=== Riddell wonder if we're nearly there yet
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[02:32] <Kagou> testing knot2, the only problem i'v found for the moment is the uggly fonts under firefox
[02:32] <Kagou> installation is ok, and hardware support too
[02:36] <Mithrandir> Riddell: I'm writing the release announcement, so we're almost there, yes.
[02:40] <Mithrandir> seb128: which version of gnome do we have now?
[02:40] <seb128> Mithrandir: 2.15.92 (2.16.0 beta 2)
[02:40] <seb128> ups
[02:40] <Mithrandir> thanks
[02:40] <seb128> Mithrandir: nop
[02:40] <seb128> Mithrandir: "GNOME 2.16.0 Release Candidate 1 (2.15.92"
[02:41] <seb128> Mithrandir: "GNOME 2.16.0 Release Candidate 1 (2.15.92)"
[02:41] <seb128> 2.15.91 was beta 2, that one is Candidate 1 ;)
[02:41] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks
[02:41] <seb128> np
[02:42] <vuntz> dholbach, seb128: question? for me?
[02:42] <seb128> vuntz: bug 47602
[02:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47602 in gnome-panel "gnome panels are empty (show nothing) after login" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47602
[02:43] <seb128> vuntz: what sort of debug informations are useful for a such bug out of a bt and maybe valgrind log?
[02:45] <Mithrandir> http://err.no/tmp/knot-2.txt ; corrections welcome
[02:46] <Mithrandir> Riddell: if you have updated the KDE version, I can put that in too?
[02:46] <vuntz> nice bug
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[02:46] <Kamion> Mithrandir: missing xubuntu from the cdimage.u.c URLs
[02:46] <vuntz> sladen: do you have some time to play with this nel bug?
[02:46] <Riddell> Mithrandir: "KDE has been updated to 3.5.4"
[02:46] <Mithrandir> Kamion: oops, fixed.
[02:47] <sladen> vuntz: which one?
[02:47] <vuntz> sladen: bug 47602
[02:47] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47602 in gnome-panel "gnome panels are empty (show nothing) after login" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47602
[02:47] <Mithrandir> Riddell: looks good?
[02:47] <janimo> Mithrandir: xubuntu live looks good to me
[02:47] <janimo> on 386 at least
[02:47] <seb128> Mithrandir: s/Gnome/GNOME
[02:47] <Mithrandir> janimo: cheers
[02:48] <Riddell> Mithrandir: wiki.kubuntu.com -> wiki.kubuntu.org
[02:48] <Mithrandir> seb128: fixed
[02:48] <Mithrandir> Riddell: fixed
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[02:49] <seb128> Mithrandir: "The new version of usplash seems to cause the desktop CD to fail to boot" ... maybe adding "for some people", it doesn't happen to everybody, right?
[02:49] <seb128> hum
[02:49] <Mithrandir> seb128: point.  Fixed.
[02:49] <seb128> thanks ;)
[02:51] <seb128> looks good to me
[02:51] <Riddell> Mithrandir: good for me too
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[02:51] <Mithrandir> ok, goodie.
[02:52] <tseng> Mithrandir: knot 2 is the first in a series...
[02:52] <tseng> Mithrandir: its the second
[02:52] <Mithrandir> tseng: fixed
[02:52] <Mithrandir> (thanks)
[02:52] <Mithrandir> I'm publishing the images now, ubuntu and kubuntu done, will do edubuntu and xubuntu once lithium has breathing space, then sync-mirrors, then prod mirrors to actually get it into the right place, then send announce
=== tseng hugs Mithrandir 
[02:53] <cbx33> cool Mithrandir 
[02:53] <zul> yay!
[02:53] <Kamion> first/second> I always get that wrong
[02:53] <ogra> Mithrandir, The edubuntu-server package is not automatically installed when you do an edubuntu default install
[02:53] <StevenK> "Here is the sec^Wfirst upload of ubiquity...."
[02:53] <Kamion> zul: ha, good timing; what's the status of quieten-grub?
[02:53] <Mithrandir> ogra: but it should have been, or?
[02:54] <cbx33> Mithrandir: is knot 2 based on 31.2 ?
[02:54] <ogra> yes
[02:54] <ogra> the edubuntu-server install is the default ...
[02:54] <ogra> but there is no "server" option in the menu ... 
[02:54] <Mithrandir> cbx33: that question makes no sense without you specifying ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu/xubuntu
[02:54] <cbx33> edu
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[02:55] <ogra> cbx33, its based on /current 
[02:55] <Mithrandir> yeah, it'll be 20060831.2
[02:55] <cbx33> ok excellent
[02:55] <ogra> (which links to .2)
[02:55] <Mithrandir> ogra: no, it's not.  I specify the exact release.
[02:55] <ogra> oh, ok
[02:55] <cbx33> ogra: I have a question
[02:55] <Mithrandir> ogra: anyway, I rephrased it now; looks better?
[02:55] <ogra> yep, perfect, thanks :)
[02:56] <cbx33> the pathch I'm working on for pessulus, relies on something that is in python in edgy only
[02:56] <ogra> hmm, the partitioner doesnt start on ubuntu ppc ubiquity if i select manual partitioning
[02:56] <cbx33> goption to be exact, it was a request from vuntz as gnome are phasing other methods out and that is the preferred option
[02:56] <cbx33> you expressed an interest to getit backported to dapper
[02:56] <ogra> well ...
[02:57] <ogra> if it cant it cant :)
[02:57] <cbx33> do you want me to come up with some alternative code for option handling for dapper
[02:57] <cbx33> it's not problem...
[02:57] <cbx33> I mean it won;t be immediate anyway
[02:58] <ogra> if people want the shiny SCP they shall use edgy ... if its backportable right away we can do that else we dont ... 
[02:58] <cbx33> ogra: drop pessulus support and it will be
[02:58] <cbx33> we can use that as a carrot !
[02:58] <cbx33> "move to edgy....we have pessulus support"
[02:58] <ogra> exactly
[02:59] <cbx33> ok, agreed
[02:59] <ogra> move to edgy we have a shiny SCP
[02:59] <cbx33> well not really agreed, heh, it's your decision
[02:59] <cbx33> :p
[02:59] <ogra> while the dapper one only kills sessions :)
[02:59] <tseng> scp?
[02:59] <Kamion> Mithrandir: s/implemention/implementation/
[02:59] <cbx33> kills and executes
[02:59] <ogra> tseng, SCP
[02:59] <cbx33> and logs out
[02:59] <cbx33> Student Control Panel
[02:59] <tseng> oh.
[02:59] <ogra> capitalization ;)
[02:59] <Kamion> Mithrandir: actually "implementations" would be slightly better since you're saying "changes ... have been"
[02:59] <cbx33> and has plugin support
[03:00] <Mithrandir> Kamion: better now?
[03:00] <Kamion> Mithrandir: yep, ta
[03:00] <ogra> tseng, dont worry, we dont add plugins and sessions to secure copy ;)
[03:00] <tseng> ogra: ok :)
[03:01] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I'd say "splash" or 'splash' rather than splash - the guillemot quotes aren't entirely common in English
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[03:01] <cbx33> are you drafting the knkot 2 release announcement?
[03:01] <tseng> yes.
[03:01] <cbx33> and any one view it?
[03:01] <cbx33> s/can/and/
[03:02] <tseng> 08:45 < Mithrandir> http://err.no/tmp/knot-2.txt ; corrections welcome
[03:02] <Mithrandir> Kamion: fixed.
[03:02] <_ion> splash
[03:02] <Mithrandir> (my email client does  automatically)
[03:02] <ogra> Mithrandir, there seems no way for me to convince the partitioner to load for manual partitioning in ubiquity on ppc
[03:02] <cbx33> Mithrandir: *not* encouraged for, would *not* advised
[03:02] <Kamion> _ion: ASCII's better in announcements where possible
[03:03] <Znarl> Mithrandir : nl.releases is having a diskspace shortage and shouldn't be included in the announcement.  nl.releases points to releases.ubuntu.com presently.
[03:03] <cbx33> be a better wording
[03:03] <Kamion> cbx33: not IMO
[03:03] <cbx33> Kamion: np
[03:03] <Mithrandir> Znarl: ok, nl.archive removed.
[03:03] <Znarl> Thanks.
[03:03] <Kamion> I think encouraged is marginally better, although there isn't much in it
[03:03] <Mithrandir> cbx33: eparse.
[03:03] <ogra> Mithrandir, and i cant delete the whole disk, there is some valuable data on it ... so i cant really test ubiqity here 
[03:04] <Mithrandir> ogra: ok; Kamion, got any ideas?
[03:04] <Mithrandir> ogra: I'm tempted to just say "heck, it works", but that's slightly dangerous too.
[03:04] <ogra> right
[03:04] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I don't think we should care for knot-2. I'd say release-note it and we can work it out later.
[03:04] <ogra> at least it boots the live session fine
[03:05] <Kamion> actually, before you do that
[03:05] <cbx33> Mithrandir: "don't need to bother" - seems a little colloquial for an announcement to me?
[03:05] <Kamion> ogra: can you get me /var/log/installer/syslog and /var/log/syslog please?
[03:05] <Mithrandir> cbx33: I blame Colin for that. :-)
[03:05] <cbx33> "there is no need to" ?
[03:05] <ogra> sure ... 
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[03:07] <Kamion> cbx33's change would be fine by me
[03:07] <Mithrandir> cbx33: ok, changed.
[03:10] <cbx33> Mithrandir: in following changes as - in following the changes as
[03:12] <ogra> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ubuntu-ppc-ubiquity-installer-syslog and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ubuntu-ppc-ubiquity-syslog
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[03:13] <Mithrandir> cbx33: done
[03:13] <cbx33> Mithrandir: ubuntu-devel-announce list - ubuntu-devel-announce mailing list     ?
[03:14] <Mithrandir> personally, I think I'd rather write "If you are interested in following Ubuntu development, we would suggest you subscribe to the u-d-a mailing list"
[03:14] <Mithrandir> but I have no idea if that's more correct or not.
[03:15] <cbx33> hmmm
[03:15] <cbx33> for people who are not in the know the full expansion may be better
[03:15] <cbx33> one final change from me to suggest
[03:16] <cbx33> to try to catch bugs far enough before the final release that they can be fixed - to try to catch bugs as soon as possible so the can be fixed before the final release
[03:16] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: it certainly is not wrong
[03:16] <cbx33> sorry....mistake in that
[03:16] <cbx33> so they can be fixed ;P
[03:17] <Mithrandir> cbx33: good now?
[03:17] <Mithrandir> giftnudel: the question here is more better/worse than right/wrong.
[03:18] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: I like the one here better (its easier)
[03:18] <cbx33> Mithrandir: maybe just needs one more comma
[03:19] <cbx33> just before - to try to cath
[03:19] <cbx33> releases, to try to
[03:19] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: also, there are 2 spaces after "frequent breakage." ;)
[03:19] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: oh, and there are more :)
[03:19] <cbx33> there should be two after every full stop
[03:19] <Kamion> giftnudel: many people adopt that style intentionally - it's not wrong
[03:20] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it should be consistent, though
[03:20] <cbx33> there is a single space in the second paragraph
[03:20] <giftnudel> ok, then it's not konsistent
[03:20] <cbx33> that should be a doulbe
[03:20] <giftnudel> there are a lot more though
[03:20] <cbx33> there is still application menu breakage on knot 2
[03:20] <Mithrandir> ok, consistently two now.
[03:21] <Mithrandir> cbx33: give me a blurb and I'll add it.
[03:21] <Mithrandir> cbx33: comma added
[03:21] <cbx33> it needs a symlink removing
[03:21] <cbx33> to a debian folder
[03:21] <cbx33> I can't remember where though
[03:22] <Kamion> ogra: (a) ubuntu-ppc-ubiquity-syslog isn't world-readable, (b) the other log is from a ubiquity run where you never tried to start advanced partitioning, so is no use in tracking down that bug
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[03:22] <Kamion> or at least it appears thus
[03:23] <ogra> well its should be from the current run thats still sitting on the desktop
[03:23] <ogra> manual partitioning is selected and i clicked forward ... 
[03:24] <cbx33> can you confirm the application menu breakage ogra ?
[03:24] <ogra> flickering ? 
[03:24] <cbx33> yes
[03:24] <giftnudel> * The application menu may be broken, if you find that error, you need to remove the symlink "whereever"
[03:24] <Kamion> ogra: the log has no indication of this. perhaps you could try 'sudo env UBIQUITY_DEBUG=1 ubiquity'? make sure to use an unimportant password, as it'll show up in the debug log
[03:24] <cbx33> ok it';s here
[03:24] <cbx33> hang on
[03:24] <ogra> remove /etc/xdg/menu/debian*
[03:24] <ogra> there is a broken symlink
[03:24] <Kamion> debug mode should show us what partman is doing
[03:25] <cbx33>  /etc/xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu
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[03:25] <ogra> Kamion, world readable now
[03:25] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: * The application menu may be broken, if you find that error, you need to remove /etc/xdg/menu/debian-menu.menu
[03:25] <giftnudel> or if you experience this error
[03:25] <cbx33> broken seems a little....
[03:25] <giftnudel> well then
[03:26] <giftnudel> * The application menu may be flickering, if you experience this error, you need to remove /etc/xdg/menu/debian-menu.menu
[03:26] <cbx33> flickering 
[03:26] <cbx33> giftnudel: sounds good
[03:27] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: blurb above (don't forget a . at the end)
[03:27] <ogra> Kamion, ok, i'm at the same point now ... 
[03:27] <ogra> same logs ? 
[03:27] <Mithrandir> giftnudel: I think it should be described a bit better than "broken", and does this happen in new installations?  If not, it's not that relevant..
[03:28] <giftnudel> cbx33: does it happen on installations?
[03:28] <ogra> the funny thing is that it doesnt always happen
[03:28] <cbx33> giftnudel: it happened here on an edubuntu install
[03:29] <cbx33> default install
[03:29] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: then it should be added
[03:29] <ogra> if i do an amd64 install on my lappie, it works fine amd64 live is flickering ... i386 install is broken, install is fine ...
[03:29] <cbx33> you may want to mention about existing partitions sometimes have two icons present on the desktop
[03:29] <giftnudel> Mithrandir: what about the second blurb with flickering
[03:29] <ogra> its unpredictable where or when it happens, but removing the dangling link always helps
[03:30] <Kamion> ogra: just /var/log/installer/syslog should be fine
[03:30] <ogra> ok
[03:30] <giftnudel> cbx33: I don't thinkt that is important ;)
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[03:30] <cbx33> as i said, may want to mention :p
[03:31] <Kamion> cbx33: I don't think we need to list all the known bugs; my rule of thumb is generally to list the ones that'll get in people's way during installation
[03:31] <cbx33> I'm just glad I have a running system - so I can continue my development
[03:31] <cbx33> Kamion: that's cool
[03:31] <cbx33> i just mentioned it as it was prominent and visible from installation
[03:31] <cbx33> but it leave it all up to you guys
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[03:34] <Mithrandir> giftnudel: ok, added.
[03:34] <Mithrandir> (added)
[03:34] <giftnudel> hehe
[03:34] <giftnudel> better
[03:35] <cbx33> Mithrandir: looking gggoooooooD !
[03:35] <seb128> cbx33: the menu bug? It's no present on new installation
[03:36] <ogra> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/syslog
[03:36] <Mithrandir> ok, knot-2 is now pushed to the mirrors.
[03:36] <cbx33> seb128: hmm...I just burned and install 31.2 edubuntu
[03:36] <cbx33> and it was there
[03:36] <Mithrandir> Znarl: can you ask heanet to do their thing?
[03:36] <Mithrandir> Znarl: and acc, please.
[03:36] <seb128> cbx33: is /etc/xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu a broken symlink on default edubuntu?
[03:37] <Mithrandir> maswan: ^^
[03:37] <ogra> seb128, yes
[03:37] <cbx33> yes
[03:37] <seb128> why?
[03:37] <ogra> no idea ?
[03:37] <ogra> :)
[03:37] <rodarvus> :)
[03:37] <cbx33> what provides it?
[03:37] <seb128> you guys install menu-xdg?
[03:37] <ogra> i didnt touch xdg
[03:38] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ grep xdg *
[03:38] <ogra> development: * python-xdg                   # SebastienBacher
[03:38] <seb128> development
[03:38] <ogra> doe spython-xdg pull it in ?
[03:38] <seb128> no
[03:38] <ogra> right, then we dont
[03:38] <seb128> kdelibs-bin does it
[03:38] <Kamion> development's not installed by default anyway
[03:38] <ogra> aaah
[03:38] <seb128> is KDE bog :p
[03:38] <rodarvus> ogra, did you chose de_BE.UTF-8 on purpose for this installation?
[03:38] <ogra> evil KDE
[03:38] <ogra> rodarvus, nope
[03:38] <seb128> ogra: if you install menu-xdg you should install menu too
[03:38] <ogra> i choose "Deutsch" from the gui 
[03:39] <ogra> seb128, eek ... then i'll get the debian menu, right ? 
[03:39] <Kamion> you'll get BE if you select a city not in a country with a de_* locale
[03:39] <Kamion> just because it's the first in the list
[03:39] <seb128> ogra: yeah, why would you install menu-xdg other way?
[03:39] <ogra> oh, damned might be i didnt change to Berlin
[03:40] <ogra> seb128, dunno ... i wouldnt want menu-xdg at all ...
[03:40] <ogra> i'll look into kdelibs then 
[03:40] <seb128> ogra: fix kdelibs-bin to only Recommends it then
[03:40] <ogra> yep
[03:40] <ogra> lets break kubuntu :P
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Mithrandir] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | 6.06.1 released | knot 2 released
[03:40] <rodarvus> \o/
[03:41] <ogra> yay
[03:41] <Kamion> ogra: hmm, interesting
[03:41] <Mithrandir> I'm still waiting for mirrors to pick up the images before sending out the announcement
[03:41] <Kamion> ogra: so what happens is that ubiquity drives partman forward to the resize question, so that it can figure out what range to use for the resize slider
[03:41] <Hobbsee> seb128: ogra you shouldnt be using kdelibs-bin at all
[03:41] <Hobbsee> !
[03:41] <ogra> right, i noticed a popup 
[03:42] <Kamion> ogra: however, for some reason partman then says it can't resize the partition
[03:42] <Kamion> this is probably confusing the ubiquity partman component
[03:42] <ogra> Hobbsee, i'D love to drop it ... do you write gnome replacements for kdeedu ?
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[03:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: it's incorporated into kdelibs4c2a.  you dont need it
[03:42] <Kamion> ogra: could you please file a bug on ubiquity, attaching /var/log/installer/syslog and /var/log/partman? please also quote the relevant parts of this conversation so that I have a record of it
=== Hobbsee doestn write gnome-anything.
[03:43] <ogra> Kamion, will do 
[03:43] <Kamion> thanks
[03:43] <ogra> but first ... breakfast :)
[03:43] <Kamion> Mithrandir: the above isn't a powerpc-specific issue
[03:43] <Kamion> in case you haven't sent the announcement yet
[03:43] <Kamion> and I doubt it will affect all powerpcs
[03:43] <Kamion> it's just not one I've seen before
[03:44] <seb128> Hobbsee: I agree, everybody should be using GNOME ;)
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[03:44] <ogra> Hobbsee, ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ grep kdelibs *
[03:44] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$
[03:44] <Hobbsee> hah
[03:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: uh-hu.  What's the issue, really?
[03:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: as in, what's the blurb I should put in?
[03:44] <seb128> Mithrandir: main unfrozen then? ;)
[03:44] <ogra> apparently something depends on kdelibs-bin
[03:44] <Mithrandir> seb128: upload away.
[03:44] <ogra> i dont pull it in directly
[03:44] <seb128> Mithrandir: rock on
[03:44] <Hobbsee> ogra: my point is, nothing should depend on kdelibs-bin.  i got rid of all the stuff in the arhcives that did.
[03:44] <Hobbsee> or so i thought
[03:44] <ogra> doesnt look like ... 
[03:45] <ogra> :)
[03:45] <jdub> Hobbsee: need some thinking music?
[03:45] <jdub> o/` o/` o/` o/` o/` o/`
[03:45] <seb128> ogra:  kdelibs4c2a apparently
[03:45] <jdub>  o/` o/` o/` o/` o/` o/`
[03:45] <ogra> seb128, right 
[03:45] <seb128> Hobbsee: kdelibs4c2a depends on kdelibs-bin
[03:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: "The desktop CD installer may be unable to start the advanced partitioner in some situations when there are errors on filesystems on the hard disk."
[03:45] <Kamion> or something like that
[03:46] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, added it to the head of the list of issues.
=== ogra now really goes to eat something ...
[03:46] <Hobbsee> seb128: no it doesnt.
[03:46] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ apt-cache rdepends kdelibs-bin
[03:46] <ogra> kdelibs-bin
[03:46] <ogra> Reverse Depends:
[03:46] <ogra>   kdelibs4c2a
[03:46] <Hobbsee> seb128: it provides, replaces, and conflicts it, but it does *nto* depend on it.
[03:46] <seb128> Hobbsee: "Depends: kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.2), libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libaudio2, libbz2-1.0, libc6 (>= 2.3.4-1), libcupsys2 (>= 1.1.99.b1.r4748-1), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.3.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.1.5-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libgnutls12 (>= 1.2.5), libice6, libidn11 (>= 0.5.18), libjpeg62, libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.8rel), libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.6), libsm6, libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-4), libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxi6, l
[03:46] <seb128> ibxinerama1, libxml2 (>= 2.6.23), libxrandr2, libxrender1, libxslt1.1 (>= 1.1.15), libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), menu-xdg, perl, python
[03:46] <seb128> "
[03:46] <Hobbsee> seb128: your'e talking edgy?
[03:46] <Hobbsee> seb128: that's dapper
[03:47] <seb128> Hobbsee: 
[03:47] <seb128>      4:3.5.4-0ubuntu9 0
[03:47] <seb128>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com edgy/main Packages
[03:47] <maswan> Mithrandir: since Znarl hasn't told me to do my thing, I'm doing it from your poke instead. :)
[03:47] <Mithrandir> maswan: thanks a lot.
[03:47] <Hobbsee> no way....
[03:47] <seb128> Hobbsee: if you are sure of you, good
[03:47] <Kamion> seb128: kdelibs-bin has been removed from edgy
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[03:48] <Kamion> but kdelibs4c2a does Depends: menu-xdg in edgy
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[03:48] <Hobbsee> Kamion: i requested it :)
[03:48] <seb128> Kamion: I've an old version "Status: deinstall ok config-files" apparently ;)
[03:48] <Hobbsee> seb128: something's really weird with that.
[03:48] <seb128> Kamion: right
[03:48] <seb128> Hobbsee: KDE trigs menu-xdg by some way
[03:49] <Hobbsee> seb128: sorry, what's your depends line from?
[03:49] <seb128> Hobbsee: no sure now, don't bother about it anyway, what Kamion said
[03:49] <seb128> "kdelibs4c2a does Depends: menu-xdg in edgy"
[03:49] <seb128> I think it should be "Recommends" for iut
[03:49] <seb128> it
[03:50] <Hobbsee> seb128: ah okay.  i'm not sure what menu-xdg does at this point.  besides, i'm not in core.
[03:50] <Hobbsee> so i cant do anything about it anyway :P
[03:51] <seb128> Hobbsee: menu-xdg provides the xdg debian menu 
[03:51] <Hobbsee> ah
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[03:54] <cbx33> orca is interesting
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[03:54] <cbx33> running the menu item......doesn't actually allow you to set it up yet does it?
[03:58] <cbx33> hehehe button sounds like muffin
[03:58] <cbx33> Shutdown muffin
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[04:07] <Mempf> is knot 2 out?
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[04:08] <tseng> Mempf: thats what the topic says.
[04:08] <Mempf> i dont see it on the cdimage.ubuntu.com site
[04:09] <tseng> it's getting there
[04:09] <Mempf> oh ok
[04:10] <Kamion> even datacentre-internal mirroring of these things takes a while
=== Mempf is confused
[04:10] <Mempf> lol
[04:10] <Kamion> the short version is "wait"
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[04:11] <jdong> Mempf: it's already on cdimage.ubuntu.com for me
[04:12] <Mempf> wow
[04:12] <Mempf> jdong
[04:12] <jdong> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/releases/edgy/knot-2/
[04:12] <Mempf> long time no talk
[04:12] <jdong> yes, long time :)
[04:12] <Mempf> The requested URL /releases/edgy/knot-2/ was not found on this server.
[04:12] <Mempf> not for me
[04:12] <jdong> :-/
[04:12] <Mempf> oh well
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[04:12] <jdong> strange :)
[04:12] <Mempf> i got all day
[04:12] <Mempf> lol
[04:12] <jdong> lol
[04:12] <jdong> I'm torrenting it
[04:12] <jdong> it's slow as hell, but I'm in no hurry
[04:12] <Mempf> maybe we are linked to different mirrors
[04:12] <jdong> I'm already dist-upgraded to edgy on my systems
[04:12] <Mempf> that always fails for me
[04:12] <Mempf> lol
[04:14] <rikai> Hm, talking about the edgy download?
[04:14] <Mempf> yeah
[04:15] <Mempf> or in my case, the lack of
[04:15] <rikai> Yeah, cdimage is doing some sort of dns rotation thing, but not all the mirror servers are populated yet.
[04:15] <Mempf> ah i see
[04:15] <rikai> Pop on over to http://82.211.81.191/releases/edgy/knot-2/ if you're in a rush. ;)
[04:15] <Kamion> mvo: cdromupgrade seems to assume $CD/upgrade/
[04:16] <elmo> rikai: no, don't
[04:16] <elmo> people don't give out IPs for our mirrors, it's not big and it's not clever
[04:17] <rikai> elmo: err, apologies then.
[04:17] <Mempf> even the ip wont load for me
[04:17] <Mempf> lol
[04:17] <giftnudel> besides, who knows if this is not rikai's server and there are some compromised images on it
=== sladen grins at elmo taking the IP down
[04:18] <elmo> sladen: I didn't
[04:18] <rikai> giftnudel: True.
[04:18] <elmo> but I happen to know someone is working on the machines and that it was entirely possible those IPs would become invalid at any time
[04:19] <giftnudel> well the server rejects the connection
[04:19] <mvo> Kamion: that is fixed in my local branch, will upload very soon
[04:19] <pygi> sivang, poke?
[04:19] <Mempf> so are most of you guys devolpers then?
[04:20] <Hobbsee> Mempf: yes. this is a dev channel :P
[04:20] <Mempf> well im here
=== HiddenWolf figures that this is -devel, right?
[04:20] <Mempf> and im not
[04:20] <Mempf> lol
[04:20] <pygi> Hobbsee, :P
[04:20] <Mempf> im looking into it though
[04:20] <Hobbsee> Mempf: devs, lurkers, and other people :)
[04:20] <rikai> Mempf: beauty of irc. Anyone can participate. :)
[04:21] <Mempf> rikai: beauty of ubuntu. Anyone can participate. :)
[04:21] <Mempf> lol
[04:21] <Hobbsee> that too
[04:21] <rikai> Mempf: indeed.
[04:21] <rikai> On a small unrelated sidenote, anyone happen to know what version of ubiquity made it into knot-2?
[04:22] <Kamion> rikai: 1.1.11
[04:22] <rikai> Kamion: Thanks. :)
[04:23] <Mempf> i want my glx_texture_from_pixmap ati/nvidia!
[04:23] <rikai> That fixes the installer error i've been getting. Now i've just got to wait for the dvd release. Anywho, i'll quiet myself now and elt everyone get back to their.... developing?
[04:24] <Kamion> I doubt there'll be a DVD release of knot-2
[04:24] <Kamion> we don't usually do DVD milestones
[04:24] <Mempf> yay I can see knot-2!
[04:25] <rikai> Kamion: oh? You do dvd dailies but not dvd milestones?
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[04:26] <Kamion> twice-weekly, not daily
[04:26] <rikai> Ahh.
[04:26] <Kamion> and yes, they generally aren't released as milestones because they don't usually get enough testing for that
[04:26] <tseng> beta usually has a dvd
[04:26] <rikai> Alright. Thanks for the info. Guess i'll jsut grab the cd then.
[04:27] <Mempf> anyone knot how soon till we start to see some new artwork?
[04:27] <Mempf> knot*
[04:27] <Mempf> sigh
[04:27] <Mempf> know**
[04:27] <Mithrandir> there won't be a knot-2 dvd, no.  If I get volunteers to test a knot-3 dvd, I could release it, sure.
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[04:33] <Mempf> i love my 10Mbit internet
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[04:35] <_ion> /summon keybuk
[04:35] <ogra> Kamion, ...
[04:35] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ apt-cache show edubuntu-server|grep Depends
[04:35] <ogra> Depends: ldm, ltsp-server-standalone, openssh-server, samba, schooltool
[04:35] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ grep ldm *
[04:35] <ogra> ship: * ldm                                # seeded because its not a hard dep
[04:35] <ogra> any idea how ldm ends up in edubuntu-server even its not seeded there ?
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[04:36] <ogra> hmm, and the fun is that ltspfs *is* seeded but doesnt show up
[04:37] <Kamion> ogra: because you don't have server in the seeds: line in edubuntu-meta's update.cfg so it isn't getting updated
[04:37] <Kamion> that could have been my fault while implementing ubuntu-meta-in-bzr
[04:37] <Kamion> want me to fix it now?
[04:37] <ogra> nah, i can do that ... thatnks for the hint
[04:37] <ogra> *thanks
[04:38] <Kamion> -seeds: minimal standard desktop live
[04:38] <Kamion> +seeds: minimal standard desktop server live
[04:38] <ogra> well, i'll drop minimal and standard anyway :)
=== rikai checks around to see if the "put home to a seperate partition from /" idea made it into edgy.
[04:41] <Hobbsee> rikai: i doubt it
[04:41] <Hobbsee> would be sensible though
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[04:42] <Kamion> ogra: only from output_seeds please
[04:42] <rikai> Indeed. It'd make for nice quick and painless reinstalls in the event something goes wrong in /.
[04:42] <Kamion> ogra: I'm fairly sure dropping those from seeds will do bad things to germinate's head
[04:43] <Kamion> you want:
[04:43] <Kamion> seeds: minimal standard desktop server live
[04:43] <Kamion> output_seeds: desktop server live
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=== Mempf is booting the knot 2 disk now
[04:43] <Kamion> rikai: unfortunately it also makes autopartitioning quite a lot harder because the PC partition table format is so dreadful
[04:43] <Kamion> and it requires asking for relative sizes
[04:44] <Kamion> which people will of course get wrong :)
[04:44] <ogra> Kamion, confirmed ... germinate-update-metapackage is very unhappy :)
[04:44] <rikai> Kamion: ahh, true.
[04:44] <Kamion> we do just-/-and-swap not because it produces a technically better system, but because it's much simpler
[04:44] <Mempf> and knot-2 still freezes after usplash....
[04:44] <maswan> What would rock is having a good enough lvm implementation to be able to do everything-on-lvm
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[04:45] <maswan> I hear there are some issues with that though
[04:45] <rikai> Wow, this mirror of knot2 is suprisingly fast.
[04:45] <Mempf> yeah i got it at 1.1MB/s
[04:45] <maswan> can't be mine, I'm only up to alternate and desktop-amd64. :)
[04:45] <ogra> Kamion, is output_seeds supposed to be in update.cfg ? 
[04:46] <ogra> i dont have it ...
[04:46] <Kamion> ogra: no, add it
[04:46] <rikai> Ehh, mine is only going at 321KB/s
[04:46] <ogra> ok
[04:46] <sladen> Mempf: after usplash, or after gfxboot?
[04:46] <rikai> But thats near the top of my connection speed anyway, so i cant complain.
[04:46] <Kamion> just put it right after seeds
[04:46] <Mempf> i think usplash
[04:46] <ogra> done ...
[04:46] <Mempf> not sure what gfxboot is
[04:47] <Mempf> i knot the fix
[04:47] <neuralis> Kamion: have you looked in detail how fedora implements installation to lvm? i've been meaning to, but never got around to it; they seem to install to lvm by default, though.
[04:47] <Mempf> i can get passed it if i press ctrl+alt+F3
[04:47] <rikai> gfxboot == modified grub, ne?
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[04:47] <Mempf> i filed a bug on it
[04:48] <maswan> 16:48:05 (79.90 MB/s) - `edgy-desktop-i386.iso' saved [698845184/698845184] 
[04:48] <Mithrandir> maswan: decent bandwidth you have
[04:49] <maswan> Mithrandir: I'm happy with the current mirror setup so far.
[04:50] <maswan> Mithrandir: And I'm looking forward to the next release too, it should be fun to see now that we've gotten most of the bugs out of the system
[04:51] <shining> 80MB ? :o my disk are 4x slower than that
[04:51] <Kamion> rikai: no, modified syslinux
[04:51] <Kamion> neuralis: no
[04:52] <Kamion> neuralis: it wasn't the installation that we were concerned about, in the end
[04:52] <rikai> Kamion: ah. 
[04:52] <Kamion> neuralis: it was the usability of the userspace tools after that
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[04:52] <maswan> shining: Well, it took a couple of tries before I found a filesystem where I had enough cache so that it didn't need to flush the data to disk before the transfer was done :)
[04:52] <Kamion> rikai: actually, gfxboot can be hooked into several bootloaders, including grub, but we only use it for syslinux at present
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[04:53] <thom> maswan: hah
[04:53] <zul> Kamion: i take it its too late for the gfxboot for grub
[04:53] <rikai> Kamion: ahh i see. I just remember isntalling something called gfxboot a while back to make my grub look pretty. ;)
[04:54] <Kamion> zul: mm, probably too late now yes
[04:55] <Kamion> rikai: on a different distribution, I assume
[04:55] <Kamion> zul: no harm in getting it set up and even maybe enabled optionally, of course
[04:55] <rikai> Kamion: Ubuntu Dapper, actually.
[04:55] <Kamion> rikai: well, I can tell you that dapper's grub doesn't support gfxboot
[04:55] <zul> Kamion: yeah might just want to steel the patch from suse
[04:57] <Kamion> zul: nod
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[04:57] <rikai> Kamion: As seen in pm, it wasn't default grub. ;)
[04:58] <maswan> Mithrandir: ubuntu done, doing the other flavours now
[04:59] <Kamion> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-September/000185.html
[04:59] <Kamion> not all those mirrors will be there yeet
[04:59] <Kamion> yet
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[05:02] <jdub> elmo: you at the office?
[05:02] <elmo> jdub: yes
[05:02] <jdub> elmo: can you let me know if a fax comes through
[05:02] <jdub> oh wait
[05:03] <jdub> the girls have replied now
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[05:09] <Kamion> imbrandon: could you fix kmformat's documentation directories, please? it installs stuff into /usr/share/doc/KMFormat/ as well as /usr/share/doc/kmformat/
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[05:09] <Kamion> imbrandon: I tried to file a bug about it but there seems to be some bug in Malone that means I couldn't
[05:09] <imbrandon> Kamion: sure thing, will do that in a few moments
[05:10] <Kamion> imbrandon: actually, I managed to get the bug filed in the end; bug 58478
[05:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58478 in kmformat "documentation directories are screwy" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58478
[05:10] <imbrandon> kk
=== StevenK sighs at himself and requestsync.
[05:12] <Mempf> didn't i read somewhere that universe and multiverse were going to be enabled in knot-2 by default?
[05:12] <Mempf> i think it was on the knot 2 wiki page
[05:13] <ogra> heh, surely not
[05:13] <HiddenWolf> Mempf: there is a spec about it
[05:13] <Mempf> also i noticed that after the install when the cd ejected itself the screen was blank
[05:14] <Mempf> had to restart manully
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[05:18] <Kamion> Mempf: specifications and other plans don't automatically translate into implementation, I'm afraid ...
[05:18] <Kamion> our lives would all be a lot easier if they did ;-)
[05:18] <Mempf> im sure i read it on the wiki page at some point
[05:19] <Kamion> it's possible, but I'm afraid it was wrong
[05:19] <Mempf> yeah wahtever
[05:19] <Mempf> its only two check boxes away
[05:19] <Kamion> if it's there now, let us know so that it can be removed
[05:19] <Mempf> thanks to the re-made software sources
=== HiddenWolf downloads an iso to seed
[05:20] <dholbach> congratulations everybody on getting knot-2 out
=== dholbach hugs Mithrandir
[05:23] <Mempf> ok thats odd
[05:23] <Mempf> gnome-app-install wont launch
[05:24] <slomo> Mempf: apt-get install python-gdbm probably solves this
[05:24] <dholbach> Mempf: it needs python-gdbm ...
[05:24] <Mempf> why isent that installed by deafult?
[05:24] <dholbach> it's going to be
[05:24] <dholbach> it's a bug
[05:24] <imbrandon> Kamion: is today your archive day ?
[05:24] <Mempf> ah ok
[05:24] <imbrandon> or tuesday ?
[05:24] <imbrandon> heh
[05:24] <Kamion> imbrandon: today
[05:25] <imbrandon> Kamion: cool can you poke bugs 58479 58480 through the archive when you get a moment 
[05:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58479 in dapper-backports "konversation 1.0 backport ( edgy --> dapper )" [Low,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58479
=== imbrandon fixes kmformat 
[05:26] <Kamion> imbrandon: I will go through the list in order, yes
[05:26] <Kamion> assuming ubuntu-archive is subscribed to it
[05:26] <imbrandon> ok cool , just dident know how late in the day it was for you
[05:27] <Kamion> I'm about half-way through
[05:27] <imbrandon> ;) yea archive is subscribed
[05:28] <imbrandon> ok back to work for me
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[05:33] <Mempf> card reader still not working
[05:33] <Mempf> sigh
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[05:34] <mvo> Kamion: thanks a million for your prompt integration of #58207 \o/
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[05:34] <Mempf> also i was reading this: Edgy will ship with the 2.6.17 kernel, including all the various changes: NDISwrapper 1.22, madwifi-ng by default
[05:34] <Mempf> what does that mean about the ndiswrapper part
[05:34] <Kamion> mvo: no problem
[05:35] <Kamion> mvo: hope it works :) I didn't test it either, I'm just going to let the cron job do that
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[05:35] <mvo> Kamion: when will that be (just curious)?
[05:36] <maswan> ftp.acc.umu.se fully synced now, fyi
=== HiddenWolf is uploading 850kb/s from home, hope it helps. :)
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[05:38] <Kamion> mvo: tomorrow morning
[05:38] <Kamion> around 8am London time
[05:38] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I've re-enabled the cdimage cron jobs, BTW; hope that's OK
[05:39] <Hobbsee> Mempf: where did they read that?  ndiswrapper 1.18 is currently in ubuntu, according to MoM
[05:39] <Hobbsee> !info ndiswrapper-utils edgy
[05:39] <Mempf> its on this page
[05:39] <Mempf> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/knot2
[05:39] <jdub> Kamion: your call on knot-2? rockingly awesome?
[05:39] <Mempf> under New 2.6.17 kernel
[05:40] <Kamion> jdub: don't ask silly questions :P
[05:40] <Kamion> seb128: you seem to have undone the python transition in pyorbit; could you please fix that?
[05:40] <Kamion> Hobbsee: that'd be the userspace side; I think it needs to be updated
[05:41] <StevenK> Oh damn, does that mean Kamion has passed my first sync request.
[05:41] <Kamion> no
[05:41] <seb128> Kamion: ups, I uploaded the dapper-updates version which was newer and I didn't think somebody might have been updating the outdated version ... sure, will fix that :)
[05:41] <Kamion> seb128: thanks
[05:41] <seb128> np
[05:41] <Hobbsee> Kamion: yes, by someone feeling brave.  i believe Mithrandir was offering
[05:41] <seb128> BTW do we have a way to list packages newer to dapper-updates than edgy?
[05:42] <dholbach> seb128: lucas might be able to alter his script for that
[05:42] <dholbach> seb128: he compares package versions all the time
[05:42] <seb128> dholbach: I would be happier to have a launchpad or official way for that ;)
[05:43] <Kamion> nothing in launchpad to my knowledge
[05:43] <seb128> ok
[05:43] <Mempf> where is alacarte?
[05:43] <seb128> will ask lucas when he's around then ;)
[05:43] <seb128> Mempf: alacarte package
[05:43] <Kamion> seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/suite-diff/mainline/ should be able to do it
[05:43] <Mempf> i see its install ed still
[05:43] <Mempf> but not in the menus?
[05:43] <seb128> Mempf: right click on the menu label, menu editor
[05:43] <Mempf> kinda defeates the purpose
[05:44] <seb128> or "edit menu"
[05:44] <Mempf> oh i see
[05:44] <Mempf> cool
[05:44] <seb128> system, preferences, menu layout 
[05:44] <seb128> too
[05:45] <seb128> Kamion: will have a look at that, thank you
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[05:49] <jdong> guys, maybe laptop-mode shouldn't default to a hd spindown time of 5 seconds??
[05:49] <jdong> that might be slightly bad to the hard drive
[05:50] <wasabi> upstart kick ass.
[05:50] <ogra> wasabi, sing it ? 
[05:50] <ogra> *using
[05:51] <wasabi> heh
[05:51] <wasabi> Yeah.
[05:51] <wasabi> At work and home now.
[05:51] <ogra> and it didnt wipe your disks yet ? 
[05:51] <ogra> nice :)
[05:51] <wasabi> Nope. 
[05:51] <wasabi> It's pretty simple.
[05:52] <_ion> Yeah, upstart rules.
[05:55] <theCore> can I know why it rules?
[05:56] <Hobbsee> because Keybuk wrote it
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[05:56] <_ion> http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/upstart.html https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit
[05:56] <_ion> thecore: 
[05:56] <ogra> theCore, it looks sexy in lingerie
[05:57] <theCore> haha, but isn't still using the old /etc/init.d/ files?
[05:57] <_ion> It has sysvinit compatibility.
[05:57] <ogra> it *can* ... but doesnt need to ...
[05:58] <Hobbsee> ogra: you've tried? 
[05:58] <theCore> I think it will rules when all the sysvinit conf will be converted to /etc/event.d
[05:58] <ogra> not yet ...
[05:58] <ogra> i'm to anxious
[05:58] <Kamion> you shouldn't try yourself - the config file format will change
[05:58] <Kamion> so if you do, your system will break in edgy+1 :)
[05:59] <Hobbsee> ooh yay!
[05:59] <ogra> Hobbsee, but be sure i have to dive deep in ... ltsp will heavily suffer from it i fear ...
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[05:59] <Hobbsee> it can break over *2* releases!
[05:59] <Hobbsee> ogra: heh.  do make sure you enjoy that
[05:59] <ogra> well, not really looking forward to it 
[05:59] <ogra> i have enough on my plate 
[06:02] <doko> Kamion: please could you approve openoffice.org for dapper-proposed?
[06:09] <jordi> Kamion: I'm about to send an announcement about edgy translations to ubuntu-translators and rosetta-users
[06:09] <jordi> should I send to some other list?
[06:09] <Kamion> doko: done
[06:10] <jdong> Burgwork: I couldn't help but notice the knot2 release notes claim ATI/NVIDIA support for AIGLX?
[06:10] <Kamion> jordi: if Ubuntu maintainers should know about it too, then ubuntu-devel-announce would be appropriate
[06:10] <jdong> ;)
[06:10] <jordi> Kamion: ok; I don't think it's specially interesting for them
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[06:10] <Kamion> jordi: ok, sounds reasonable then
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[06:13] <zyga> re
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[06:16] <Kamion> crimsun: was your comment in bug 58039 a confirmation?
[06:16] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58039 in sylpheed "[Edgy]  Please sync version 2.2.7-1 from Debian/unstable" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58039
[06:16] <Kamion> Pascal isn't in ubuntu-dev
[06:18] <ogra> ok, this starts to get annoying ... thats the third < 200Mhz/64M machine i installed and it still doesnt see the ralink wlan card ... grr
[06:20] <ogra> what am i supposed to do with a card that works only with pci busses of mainboards from this month
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[06:22] <zyga> main is frozen right?
[06:23] <zyga> does universe still get continous builds?
[06:23] <tseng> no.
[06:23] <tseng> its all manual
[06:23] <zyga> oh, good
[06:23] <zyga> I wonder when will debmirror actually finish :P
[06:24] <Mempf> uhh
[06:24] <Mempf> im getting a problem with ndiswrapper
[06:24] <LaserJock> heh, it would be nice to have freshened it up a bit before Universe Freeze, but oh well
[06:24] <Kamion> zyga: you mean binary builds from source?
[06:24] <zyga> Kamion: yes
[06:24] <Mempf> i installed it with synaptic and when i go to run it from a terminal i get the error: Error: no versions of ndiswrapper found!
[06:25] <Nafallo> ogra: s/month/decenium/ ;-)
[06:25] <Kamion> zyga: yes, it does, and so does main
[06:25] <zyga> Kamion: I could just stop debmirror now as it has iterated over _everything_ three times but I still hope it will end soon
[06:25] <Kamion> we won't stop building binaries until about five minutes before release
[06:25] <zyga> oh..
[06:25] <LaserJock> zyga: yeah, I thought you meant syncs
[06:26] <zyga> right
[06:26] <zyga> okay time to get that stuff working and ignore the ongoing mirroring
[06:26] <Burgwork> jdong, yep?
[06:27] <jdong> Burgwork: are you sure that's an accurate statement?
[06:27] <jdong> I thought 9000-series nvidia was supposed to add AIGLX support
[06:27] <tseng> no it isnt
[06:27] <jdong> fglrx 8.28 for sure doesn't support aiglx
[06:28] <tseng> it is supposed to not die on aiglx server
[06:28] <jdong> composite on = 3d off
[06:28] <tseng> abi change
[06:28] <tseng> no support.
[06:28] <Burgwork> tseng, right. I will correct
[06:28] <Burgwork> I misunderstood
[06:28] <jdong> thanks, Burgwork
[06:28] <tseng> Burgwork: thanks.
[06:28] <tseng> Burgwork: yay f-spot
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[06:31] <jdong> did edgy go through some sort of hal abi change recently?
[06:31] <tseng> dbus change?
[06:32] <LarstiQ> dbus it did
[06:32] <jdong> something-that-broke-vmware change?
[06:32] <LarstiQ> or well, change at least
[06:32] <wasabi> jdub: Yeah. I'm wondeirng about this too.
[06:32] <jdong> :)
[06:32] <wasabi> Err, jdong
[06:32] <wasabi> Looks like vmware is segfaulting involving hal
[06:32] <zyga> hmm, does python2.5 --libs seem broken?
[06:33] <tseng> vmware-player doesnt even depend on hal
[06:33] <tseng> this is why binary only distribution is bad, kids
[06:33] <jdong> it's definitely vmware's fault at this point.. .we're gonna have to wait for new binaries from them
[06:34] <wasabi> crud.
[06:34] <wasabi> I'm getting vmware server set up to launch my VM
[06:34] <tseng> jdong: ..how'd you come to that conclusion?
[06:34] <tseng> after idly wondering about 30 seconds ago
[06:34] <wasabi> then i'll just use a forwarded vmware-server-console from another box or some shit to access it
[06:34] <zyga> do we have any console utils in dapper/edgy-commercial?
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[06:35] <jdong> tseng: on a less smartass-y note, do you think there's any chance to coax monodevelop to backport to dapper?
[06:35] <jdong> it didn't look trivial at first glance
[06:35] <tseng> it isnt trivial, mono packaging was significantly changed
[06:35] <tseng> you would have to backport starting at step 0
=== jdong makes another no-shit-sherlock statement
[06:36] <jdong> ok then
[06:36] <jdong> not worth the effort
[06:36] <jdong> edgy's out soon :P
[06:36] <tseng> right.
[06:36] <tseng> thats the tradeoff for backports, and why we didnt even look at it initially.. next release is always not that far away
[06:37] <desrt> wow.  october is so far away.
[06:37] <Nafallo> far far away
[06:37] <jdong> desrt: you'd be surprised at how impatient people can be
[06:37] <Nafallo> are we there yet?
=== mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o tseng]  by ChanServ
[06:38] <desrt> "give me something for free right NOW damnit, and mail it to me on a CD for free while you're at it!"
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:tseng] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with edgy) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | 6.06.1 released | knot 2 released | ARE WE THERE YET?
=== mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o tseng]  by tseng
[06:38] <tseng> in the tradition of Daniel Stone
[06:38] <desrt> i miss daniel stone
[06:38] <jdong> I have to deal with them on a daily basis
[06:38] <tseng> indeed.
=== desrt sheds tears into his nokia 770
[06:39] <zyga> guys did anyone notice: (...) distutils.errors.DistutilsPlatformError: invalid Python installation: unable to open /usr/include/python2.5/pyconfig.h (No such file or directory)
[06:39] <Nafallo> lol tseng :-)
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[06:40] <LarstiQ> zyga: missing -dev?
[06:41] <Burgwork> tseng, so do either Nvidia or ATI do the AIGLX composting stuff?
[06:41] <zyga> LarstiQ: seems so, pythn2.5-config should be in -dev then, right?
[06:41] <zyga> should I file a bug?
[06:41] <jdong> lol, Burgwork, composting :)
[06:41] <tseng> Burgwork: I don't know about fglrx
[06:41] <LarstiQ> zyga: that's where it has been for as long as I remember
[06:41] <jdong> no composite for fglrx
[06:41] <tseng> Burgwork: then neither
[06:41] <tseng> but open source ati might be usuable
[06:41] <jdong> open source ati is usable
[06:41] <Burgwork> what about nvidia?
[06:41] <jdong> so is open source intel
[06:42] <wasabi> The propriatary stuff is easier to use with Xgl.
[06:42] <jdong> no nvidia
[06:42] <zyga> LarstiQ: python-config is in python2.5, not python2.5-dev
[06:42] <jdong> proprietary cards will use xgl
[06:42] <jdong> which is in edgy/universe
[06:42] <LarstiQ> zyga: ah :)
[06:42] <Burgwork> "Edgy will ship with X.org 7.1, which includes AIGLX. With the release of the new Nvidia and ATI drivers that now working with Xorg 7.1 (but sadly still don't do compositing)"
[06:42] <Burgwork> that correct?
[06:42] <tseng> yes.
[06:42] <jdong> yes
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[06:42] <jdong> mention Xgl's presence in universe, though
[06:42] <Burgwork> will do
[06:43] <tseng> I am not sure you are on the ball with the compiz stuff either
[06:43] <tseng> oh duh
[06:43] <tseng> this is an nvidia
[06:43] <tseng> I'll test compiz on aiglx radeon later
[06:43] <tseng> and intel
[06:44] <Burgwork> All of this great AIGLX work means that there is much less need for XGL, for which the X Swat Team is going to be very happy, because AIGLX will produce about 1/1000th the bugs XGL does. XGL is still available in universe for those who need it.
[06:44] <Mempf> i can confirm compiz works perfectly on intel cards
[06:44] <Burgwork> that correct?
[06:44] <tseng> Burgwork: erm
[06:44] <tseng> that is slightly incendiary
[06:44] <wasabi> Isn't Xgl the prefered way to make all this work In The Future?
[06:44] <Burgwork> tseng, yes, yes it is
[06:44] <tseng> no, its not
[06:44] <wasabi> when Xgl doesn't need to piggyback, anyways.
[06:44] <jdong> no, aiglx is the future :)
[06:45] <tseng> but we don't want to be a dick about it
[06:45] <Burgwork> XGL is a an ugly hack
[06:45] <wasabi> How so?
[06:45] <wasabi> A pure GL X server seems fine to me.
[06:45] <jdong> x server inside an x server
[06:45] <Burgwork> it is a complete new X server
[06:45] <wasabi> XGl doesn't mandate that.
[06:45] <wasabi> It just does Right Now.
[06:45] <jdong> ^^^
[06:45] <Burgwork> AIGLX is an iteration of the existing one
[06:45] <tseng> aiglx and the other bit
[06:45] <tseng> + compiz
[06:46] <tseng> Burgwork: what was that thing you just told me about
[06:46] <sladen> XGL would be even better if it didn't require extra extensions to all of the existing X servers to make it work
[06:46] <jdub> wasabi: have a read of all the nvidia, ati and x hackers commentary on xgl vs. aiglx
[06:46] <Burgwork> tseng, sorry?
[06:46] <sladen> AIGLX would be better if it wasn't just stretching the existing driver model that little bit further
[06:46] <Burgwork> wasabi, the XGL stuff has been hacked into something called glucose by Trolltech
[06:46] <wasabi> Thgouth I had. Thought the prefered future path were to introduce GL drivers that didn't need GLX, then run a pure GL rendering X server on top of em.
[06:46] <tseng> Burgwork: nevermind, but it would be nice if you could mention we have aiglx as our "go forward" without completly slamming XGL
[06:46] <Burgwork> right
[06:47] <sladen> tseng: the thing to promote is that they are both abstracted by compiz :)
[06:47] <Burgwork> yep
[06:47] <Burgwork> because what users care about is compiz, not aiglx/xgl
[06:48] <tseng> except Xgl is the buzzword
[06:48] <Burgwork> yep
[06:48] <Burgwork> because Novell got out the door faster than RH
[06:48] <tseng> Novell is pimping it senselessly, RH is doing nothing
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[06:48] <Burgwork> because RH realizes it is mostly useless tech (at least what it does right now)
[06:49] <wasabi> Oh well. I thought the end goal was to decouple the hardware from X anyways.
[06:49] <sladen> tseng: Novell are specifically not using 'XGL' any more, they've switched to "Desktop Effects" as the pimp word
[06:49] <tseng> sladen: too late, monster is out the door
[06:49] <tseng> :)
[06:50] <sladen> yeah, they're having to try quite hard.  But it's similar to 'sudo' vs. 'root'.  The battle is winable, even if the legacy Unix vendors got there first
[06:50] <Burgwork> right. page corrected
[06:50] <Burgwork> I removed the inflamatory XGL remark, even though I thought it was quite justified
[06:51] <tseng> Burgwork: you could justify a line stating that the RSS of tomboy is a few mb bigger than sticky notes and you are outraged
[06:51] <tseng> and now 256mb laptops have just suddenly been "left behind" by ubuntu
[06:51] <sladen> Burgwork: URL?
[06:51] <Burgwork> but tomboy is clearly better tech
[06:52] <Burgwork> www.ubuntu.com/testing/knot2
[06:52] <Burgwork> should replicate in a few seconds
[06:52] <tseng> just saying, I could justify alot of crazy things :)
[06:53] <sladen> Burgwork: can we switch to the phrase "Desktop Effects" and leave only the compiz/GLX/AIGLX as a lesser footnote
[06:53] <tseng> who are "Top Men"
[06:53] <tseng> this is the 2nd time I did a double take on that
[06:53] <jdong> tseng: how's mono in terms of memory usage nowadays?
[06:53] <tseng> jdong: mono itself isnt bad, depends on the app
[06:53] <tseng> beagle has improved greatly
[06:54] <Burgwork> tseng, ajmitch (for XGL), mjg59 and quinn for compiz. I deliberately didn't mention any names in the Knot2 page
[06:54] <Burgwork> sladen, sure, will do
[06:54] <tseng> Burgwork: 'developers'?
[06:54] <tseng> Burgwork: quinn isnt even a man
[06:54] <jdong> I see
[06:54] <jdong> does beagle still go crazy? :)
[06:54] <tseng> Top Men is silly
[06:54] <tseng> jdong: no.
[06:54] <Burgwork> tseng, grumble. I am not changing it!
[06:54] <tseng> suit yourself
[06:55] <jdong> tseng: that's good to hear
[06:55] <Burgwork> Top Men is a joke
[06:55] <zyga> mvo: hi
[06:55] <jdong> Burgwork: if we get any sexist debates at the forums, I'll blame it on you then ;-)
[06:56] <Burgwork> right
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[06:56] <LaserJock> you work?
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[06:57] <Burgwork> you peanut gallery people have taken up almost 30 minutes of my precious time at work! ;)
[06:57] <tseng> you are the one that asked for a review
[06:57] <LaserJock> tseng: that'll teach him, or not
[06:57] <Burgwork> actcually, I believe you pinged me
[06:57] <Burgwork> oh, jdong did
[06:58] <tseng> ah
[06:58] <jsgotangco> oh just admit you couldn't resist picking their brains
[06:58] <jsgotangco> ;)
[06:58] <tseng> wouldve been really classy if you managed to turn that one back on me
[06:59] <Burgwork> tseng, I always try
[06:59] <sladen> Burgwork: is there an ACL on that page for me to edit it?
[06:59] <Burgwork> sladen, do you have edit rights to the website?
[06:59] <sladen> Burgwork: nope
[06:59] <Burgwork> then you are screwed. need a password first, as editing is done another site
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[07:01] <jsgotangco> we are not 1337 enuff
[07:01] <Burgwork> jsgotangco, no, I bugged henrik long enough
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[07:03] <Burgwork> grumble. FC4
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[07:05] <seb128> Kamion: do I need an UVF exception for a new ubuntulooks version fixing a crasher and a rendering issue (and no other change)?
[07:06] <Kamion> seb128: yes, but you have the exception
[07:06] <seb128> Kamion: thank you
[07:08] <jdub> mjg59: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=204948
[07:08] <thom> hrm, Keybuk's blog mentions upstart-compat-sysv; is that waiting in NEW or doesn't that exist?
[07:09] <mvo> zyga: hello, sorry, had dinner
[07:09] <mjg59> jdub: Yay
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[07:10] <sladen> CPU++
[07:11] <sladen> perhaps more commerical is that they still ship sendmail
[07:11] <zul> icky..
[07:12] <jdub> postfix by default
[07:12] <bddebian> Hey folks
[07:12] <jdub> and they imported the debian alternatives system and abused it immensely to do postfix/sendmail switching
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[07:17] <Burgwork> tell me why hplip even exists in the first place? why is that not subsumed into cups and sane?
[07:17] <LarstiQ> maintained by hp?
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[07:20] <zul> Kamion: for the grub splash stuff should i write out a spec like we did for the quiet grub spec?
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[07:31] <Kamion> thom: was in NEW until I liberated it recently
[07:31] <Kamion> zul: grub splash stuff?
[07:31] <zul> yep..
[07:31] <zul> the gfxboot for grub
[07:32] <Kamion> zul: oh, don't mind, if it's a simple patch and doesn't affect default behaviour then we can just do it
[07:32] <zul> ok sweet..
[07:33] <zyga> mvo: brb
[07:35] <mvo> Kamion: I would like to ask for a UVF exception for hplib? its a rather long changelog, but it adds new hardware and is in debian/unstable since a bit
[07:35] <Kamion> mvo: can I have mail about it?
[07:37] <mvo> Kamion: sure, I will send it and CC doko (he was the most active ubuntu person on it)
[07:38] <zyga> mvo: I've got a universal extractor that gets all the stuff we want
[07:38] <zyga> I didn't run it on the entire mirror yet but I'm about to
[07:38] <Kamion> mvo: ok, sounds good
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[07:43] <robertj> bwaha, I just realized I've had an open copy of program manager running on my desktop for the last month
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[07:52] <LaserJock> jdong: is the xchat backport stuck somewhere? it seems to have built on LP on the 29th but it isn't in the archives
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[07:52] <jdong> LaserJock: I've been wondering the same thing
[07:52] <jdong> oh infinity...... :)
[07:52] <jdong> help :)
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[08:11] <Kamion> mvo: so, I was just looking over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse
[08:12] <Kamion> mvo: I notice that the gnome-app-install changes have been pretty much done
[08:12] <Kamion> mvo: (I also notice that the spec never got reviewed/approved ...)
[08:12] <Kamion> mvo: the synaptic, software-properties, and installer changes are still pending, though
[08:13] <Kamion> mvo: has any work been done on synaptic for this? that seems like the bit that would take longest
[08:13] <Kamion> I'm only looking at this because it blocks stuff that's actually targeted at edgy, and will presumably now need to be deferred, but the more we do in advance, the better
[08:14] <zyga> mvo: scanning entire main for non-obvious alternatives
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[08:36] <neuralis> jdub: there?
[08:36] <jdub> neuralis: pong
[08:37] <neuralis> jdub: so, you misunderstood the python waking up every 100ms thing
[08:38] <jdub> neuralis: yeah, modifying it slightly atm
[08:38] <neuralis> jdub: it's not actually python; it's pygobject that does the waking up, when set to be thread aware. your demo (stracing a python interpreter) is crack; of course the *interpreter* is calling select
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[08:41] <azeem> dholbach: ping
[08:41] <dholbach> azeem: pong
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[09:22] <zyg1> re
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[09:24] <zyg1> mvo: I'm running a full scan of main, but it looks like about handful of packages require manual checks to get alternatives right, right now vim, emacs, automake and java are biggest offenders
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[09:25] <mvo> zyg1: cool, those can be easily dealt with! great work :)
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[09:35] <doko_> sfllaw: ping
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[09:36] <Mehercle> hello!!
[09:36] <Mehercle> sudo apt-get -qq install <package>
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[09:36] <Mehercle> returs DESTROY created new reference to dead object ' Qt::VBoxLayout', <> line 1 during global destruction.
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[09:37] <Chipzz> Mehercle: that's worthless
[09:38] <Chipzz> heh
[09:38] <Chipzz> whatever :P
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[09:44] <sfllaw> kozz: Pong.
[09:44] <sfllaw> doko_: Pong.
[09:46] <doko_> sfllaw: about the "on closing bug reports" ... could you publish the results of this discussion somewhere?
[09:47] <doko_> (Rocco Stanziane)
[09:48] <hunger> The new upstart breaks ubuntu-minimal... Could somebody please make those two compatible? aptitude wants to delete half my system without the -minimal package:-)
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[09:49] <pygi> hunger, Scott said in mail that it removes u-m :P
[09:49] <hunger> pygi: Yeap, I notice that as well:-)
[09:50] <sfllaw> doko_: Sure.
[09:51] <Chipzz> just some stupid idea; but how much trouble would maintaining a config.site file be?
[09:51] <Chipzz> one would say the idea is pure crack, but openbsd appears to be doing it?
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[10:02] <sfllaw> Wiki... painfully... slow...
[10:04] <doko_> have a nice weekend
[10:06] <welshbyte> sfllaw: yeah i've noticed that this past few days :/
[10:06] <welshbyte> data centre having bandwidth trouble?
[10:07] <HWolf> welshbyte, wiki is slow, but speeds of the cdimage server have been good for me.
[10:08] <welshbyte> hm curiouser and curiouser
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[10:15] <jdub> mvo: did you notice that hplip is quite old compared to upstream?
[10:17] <HWolf> welshbyte, could be that they're being hammered due to the knot release, but I doubt that should affect things greatly
[10:18] <welshbyte> HWolf: yeah considering the wiki has been slow for a few days and Knot2 was only recently released I doubt that's the problem
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[10:21] <welshbyte> do we have an estimated time of arrival for upstart for AMD64? seems that it only built successfully on i386
[10:22] <_ion> I think 0.2.1-1 is in the queue, and it contains some compilation fixes for non-x86 platforms.
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[10:23] <_ion> The source package is already in the archive.
[10:24] <welshbyte> _ion: great, thanks
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[10:30] <_ion> welshbyte: Now https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/upstart/0.2.1-1 says "successfully built" for amd64.
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[10:42] <crimsun> Kamion: (sorry about the delay) at that time it wasn't, but since he has modified the Description, I've acked #58039
[10:44] <mvo> jdub: yes, I have a local update that I will ask for UVF exception (1.6.something), but I need to fix the upgrade problem anyway because it blocks me testing dist-upgrade support
[10:44] <jdub> mvo: cool! :)
[10:44] <jdub> mvo: only noticed 'cos i got an HP MFP thingy ;-)
[10:46] <mvo> jdub: heh :) I hope that it will be in early next week (if I get a ok for the UVF-e)
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[11:38] <Mithrandir> maswan: thanks a lot for your help.  Next release will be exciting, yes.
[11:38] <Mithrandir> Kamion: cdimage cron jobs> sure, I was planning on leaving them disabled until we trigger livefs-es from cdimage, but there's no harm.
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