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| Kamping_Kaiser | i just found some pages that should be in the help wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingFirefox . that said. the whole debugging section of the wiki is replicated across both. it might need consolidation? | 05:22 |
|---|---|---|
| Burgundavia | Kamping_Kaiser: feel free to move pages to the help wiki | 05:25 |
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| Kamping_Kaiser | Burgundavia, i'm heading out soon. if i feel brave enojugh i'll try when i get home | 05:26 |
| Burgundavia | sounds good | 05:26 |
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| nixternal | jsgotangco: keep an eye out on the planet, an attack is heading your way ;) | 06:12 |
| jsgotangco | wahaha | 06:15 |
| jsgotangco | attack me? | 06:15 |
| jsgotangco | nixternal: well i really didnt ride the metro in chicago | 06:20 |
| jsgotangco | was piggybacking with my bro's jeep | 06:20 |
| nixternal | ahh hehe | 06:20 |
| nixternal | still..you lived in the city and still didn't hit the cta or the l | 06:21 |
| nixternal | ;) | 06:21 |
| jsgotangco | hahah yeah shame on me | 06:21 |
| jsgotangco | ill be there in december | 06:21 |
| nixternal | i hate trains with a passion..but when my x-wife and i traveled europe and lived over there when i was in the military..we took trains everywhere | 06:21 |
| nixternal | really..i will be in chicago in december too ;) | 06:21 |
| nixternal | Ubuntu chicago meeting, and you are giving a talke ;) | 06:21 |
| jsgotangco | will spend the new year there | 06:22 |
| nixternal | good ol' new years..gotta hit division for that..poets, mothers, and all the good clubs | 06:23 |
| nixternal | i don't drink..so they are boring to me now | 06:23 |
| crimsun | nixternal will be a raging ubuntu-aholic by january '07 | 06:25 |
| nixternal | heh | 06:25 |
| nixternal | i already am..well Kubuntu-aholic that is ;) | 06:26 |
| jsgotangco | if the meme consisted of airles, sabdfl would have his own airline brand | 06:27 |
| jsgotangco | lol | 06:27 |
| nixternal | hehe | 06:28 |
| nixternal | i hate flying and i hate trains | 06:28 |
| nixternal | driving is my only mode of transportation i feel safe with | 06:28 |
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| jenda | Burgwork: ping | 02:51 |
| jenda | I'm looking for some good reference concerning Ubuntu, Ubuntu Linux and Ubuntu GNU/Linux | 02:51 |
| jenda | (A link would feel better than just typing off the top of my head) | 02:51 |
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| HighBit | http://www.newsobserver.com/1325/story/481029.html | 04:08 |
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| Burgwork | jenda, pong | 06:27 |
| jenda_ | aha | 06:27 |
| jenda_ | What was it that i wanted? :-D | 06:28 |
| Burgwork | the gnu/linux, linux thing | 06:28 |
| jenda_ | aha ;) | 06:28 |
| Burgwork | ubuntu is just ubuntu primarily to establish our own brand and primarily to avoid the whole holy war | 06:28 |
| jenda_ | good point there | 06:29 |
| Burgwork | we refer to ourselves as based on Linux, not based on GNU/Linux, becuase Linux is what the average consumer knows | 06:29 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: can you get to https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+calendar/+subscriptions | 06:29 |
| Burgwork | plus GNU/Linux is a mouthful | 06:29 |
| trappist | especially if you don't happen to know how to pronounce gnu, which isn't really obvious | 06:30 |
| trappist | I hate reading stuff I don't know how to pronounce. | 06:30 |
| jenda_ | OK, thx | 06:30 |
| LaserJock | or you think that Ubuntu is based on some Linux offshoot | 06:30 |
| jenda_ | I'll have a look at what i wrote... | 06:31 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, I can get there. What should I be looking for? | 06:31 |
| LaserJock | hmm, are there like a million subscriptions | 06:32 |
| LaserJock | I can't seem to get there (timeout) | 06:32 |
| LaserJock | and whenever I go to a calendar on LP I get probably close to a thousand "Ubuntu Documentation Project" lines under Subscriptions | 06:33 |
| Burgwork | interesting | 06:33 |
| LaserJock | makes it very slow to get to calendars | 06:34 |
| LaserJock | and I can't do some other things with the calendars because of timeouts | 06:35 |
| Burgwork | ask in #launchpad | 06:35 |
| LaserJock | I did :/ | 06:35 |
| LaserJock | ever so good at ignoring me, as usual | 06:35 |
| Burgwork | right, ask again | 06:35 |
| === jsgotangco would still prefer to see it as GNU/Linux with his FSF sword in hand | ||
| jsgotangco | but its my opinion | 06:40 |
| Burgwork | jsgotangco, right and that is why we are not GNU/Linux | 06:42 |
| Burgwork | because RMS is a raving lunatic | 06:42 |
| jsgotangco | we're not really going to put that guy in the equation really | 06:43 |
| jsgotangco | even if he dies tomorrow GNU will still live | 06:43 |
| LaserJock | well, I just object to it on principle of it being confusing and somewhat nonsensical, but I can see why some people would disagree :-) | 06:44 |
| trappist | so I can resume my s/GNU\/Linux/Linux/g campaign? | 06:45 |
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| glatzor | hi mdke. is there an other document that describes how to get support by the community then https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-help.html? | 07:53 |
| glatzor | mdke: I would like to integrate an "get help/support" function in gnome-app-install | 07:54 |
| glatzor | mdke: if the app is supported by canonical or an isv we could direct the user to a corresponding web site | 07:55 |
| glatzor | but how to deal with apps that are only supported by the community? | 07:55 |
| nixternal | like automatix and easyubuntu? | 07:56 |
| LaserJock | nixternal: noooooo | 07:56 |
| nixternal | haha | 07:56 |
| nixternal | i don't use them anyways | 07:56 |
| nixternal | apps supported by the community would be 3rd party apps? or did i totally miss soemthing there ;) | 07:57 |
| LaserJock | Universe | 07:58 |
| nixternal | or ya, those too ;) | 07:58 |
| nixternal | haha | 07:58 |
| LaserJock | 3rd party is different | 07:58 |
| glatzor | nixternal: universe and the rest of the world | 07:58 |
| LaserJock | 3rd party is supported by the 3rd party | 07:58 |
| glatzor | nixternal: an app can be supported by canonical, isv (third party) or only the community | 07:59 |
| glatzor | I think that it isn't wrong that all apps are somehow supported by the community | 08:00 |
| nixternal | ya, i read into wrong, just like i figured ;) | 08:00 |
| LaserJock | well, I suppose it could be supported by Ubuntu, supported by Canonical, supported by community, supported by other 3rd party | 08:01 |
| LaserJock | or something similar | 08:01 |
| nixternal | or supported by LaserJock ;) | 08:01 |
| LaserJock | heh, that would fall under "community" | 08:01 |
| nixternal | oh, so you are the community then ;) | 08:02 |
| LaserJock | part of anyway :-) | 08:03 |
| glatzor | nixternal, LaserJock: guys, but to return to my first question: do you now any central document for getting help from the community? | 08:03 |
| nixternal | there is one in the works, that i do know | 08:05 |
| nixternal | the one that Andreas (lloydhino) has been working on | 08:05 |
| LaserJock | well, I'm not sure if that's what glatzor is looking for | 08:05 |
| glatzor | nixternal: it's not about contributing | 08:05 |
| nixternal | about kubuntu has contribute links i believe..but i don't know about ubuntu | 08:05 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: ping? | 08:06 |
| glatzor | nixternal: I search for asite that provides a solution for "If I have got a problem in my Ubuntu, where could I get help" | 08:06 |
| nixternal | i don't know of any like that really | 08:06 |
| LaserJock | well, there is help.ubuntu.com | 08:07 |
| glatzor | but that is quite generic | 08:07 |
| nixternal | and most of help.ubuntu.com is installed in docs locally anyways | 08:07 |
| LaserJock | well, help.ubuntu.com/community in particular | 08:07 |
| glatzor | I even thought about linking directly to the forums | 08:07 |
| nixternal | front page of help.ubuntu.com that is | 08:07 |
| nixternal | ya | 08:07 |
| LaserJock | glatzor: I'd rather not see that | 08:08 |
| glatzor | i am off for some minutes | 08:08 |
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| nixternal | i can see though however, it would be nice to have a "Help" section that would list all of the locations, with a brief description to go for help | 08:08 |
| nixternal | his boss just walked by ;) | 08:08 |
| LaserJock | well, http://www.ubuntu.com/support | 08:09 |
| nixternal | that is great, but if i install Ubuntu on a system for someone, they might not know about that page | 08:09 |
| LaserJock | oh, well that's not the point | 08:09 |
| LaserJock | he was looking for a doc for g-a-i I think | 08:09 |
| nixternal | ahh | 08:09 |
| nixternal | for instance...in KHelpCenter, there is a doc "KDE on the Web" | 08:10 |
| nixternal | how about creating something similar "Ubuntu on the Web" that would list the support pages maybe | 08:10 |
| LaserJock | I guess ideally they should all go to the Support tracker on LP | 08:10 |
| mdke | hiya | 08:11 |
| nixternal | yes, but at the same time. support tracker is the most efficient either | 08:11 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 08:11 |
| nixternal | ekdm ayih | 08:11 |
| mdke | I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i | 08:11 |
| LaserJock | but it *will* be the Ubuntu support tool | 08:11 |
| mdke | it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using | 08:11 |
| nixternal | hmm.. LaserJock, i meant to say that support tracker ISN'T the most efficient | 08:12 |
| LaserJock | mdke: I think he was just looking for generic thing to mention where to get support of Universe apps | 08:12 |
| nixternal | +1 with mdke and the app providing help | 08:12 |
| LaserJock | well, sure | 08:12 |
| LaserJock | I didn't see it as replacing app help or anything | 08:12 |
| mdke | anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now | 08:12 |
| LaserJock | just trying to show people the difference between the various "kinds" of software | 08:13 |
| mdke | so, we *really* need to have a meeting | 08:16 |
| mdke | when can we do this? | 08:17 |
| nixternal | right now? | 08:18 |
| LaserJock | next Wednesday at 19:00 UTC? | 08:18 |
| nixternal | just kidding | 08:18 |
| mdke | nixternal: is a good idea. | 08:18 |
| nixternal | heh | 08:18 |
| mdke | LaserJock: that would work for me, dunno about others | 08:18 |
| LaserJock | if I remember right, 19:00-21:00 was pretty good for most people | 08:19 |
| nixternal | i will be pimping Ubuntu at the college then ;) | 08:19 |
| mdke | we just need to sort out some licensing things | 08:20 |
| LaserJock | ah | 08:21 |
| LaserJock | and poke people about working on docs | 08:21 |
| LaserJock | ;-) | 08:21 |
| nixternal | im working on some...i would like to help robotgeek with the kdg, but he is one busy dude | 08:22 |
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| mdke | LaserJock: yes, some poking would work | 08:23 |
| mdke | glatzor: I haven't read all the scrollback about your idea yet, but my first impression about what you said is: | 08:23 |
| mdke | 19:13:20 < mdke> I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i | 08:23 |
| mdke | 19:13:41 < mdke> it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using | 08:23 |
| mdke | 19:14:41 < mdke> anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now | 08:23 |
| glatzor | mdke: the focus is on promoting canonical and its servers more in the user interface | 08:27 |
| glatzor | the question is what to do if an app is only supported by the community | 08:28 |
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| glatzor | for canonical or isv the case would be quite clear: "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd." | 08:29 |
| mdke | glatzor: I'm not sure I get the point, maybe I'll understand better when reading the scrollback/an email. But now there is a Help menu with the support options, I don't quite see how including something in g-a-i would work, it might in fact provide confusing... not sure | 08:29 |
| mdke | I'd certainly like to expand our "how to get more help" doc | 08:33 |
| glatzor | mdke: I give you an example: for all applications main there will be the following sentence in the description of the application: | 08:33 |
| glatzor | "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd." | 08:34 |
| mdke | "there will be the following sentence", or "there could be the following sentence"? | 08:34 |
| mdke | (just trying to get a feel for whether this is up for discussion, or has already been decided) | 08:34 |
| glatzor | I am discussing this with mdy currently | 08:34 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, pong | 08:35 |
| glatzor | mdke: but the question is how to handle apps that are not commercially supported (by canonical or isv) | 08:35 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: thought you might want to weigh in on the current discussion | 08:35 |
| mdke | glatzor: and is the focus based on what is best for the user, or what is best for Canonical in terms of marketing their services? | 08:35 |
| glatzor | perhaps it's the best to not show anything for these apps | 08:35 |
| mdke | again, that sounds rude, but I'm trying to get a feeling for the discussion | 08:35 |
| Burgwork | right | 08:36 |
| glatzor | I think that it is also of interest of the user for which apps he could get support | 08:36 |
| Burgwork | so the current plan is to show that you can get support for an app from canonical is g-a-i? | 08:36 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, thanks? | 08:36 |
| mdke | Burgwork: I think that seems an accurate summary | 08:37 |
| glatzor | the plan is to enhance g-a-i and not to make g-a-i a central entry point for support questions | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | so how does that help my aunt or grandmother? | 08:37 |
| mdke | I see | 08:37 |
| === mdke goes to dinner | ||
| LaserJock | Burgwork: sorry? :-) | 08:37 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: If you paid for the support this is of interest for you. | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | for me, the vast majority of users of g-a-i are going to be home users and those learning that they can get support from canonical is uselss | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | becuase commercial users (who care about this kind of thing) are not going to see gai | 08:38 |
| Burgwork | so lets seperate out the isv stuff and the stuff in ubuntu's repos | 08:38 |
| Burgwork | for the former case, I think it makes sense to point them at the isv | 08:38 |
| Burgwork | for anything in the main repos, I would simply point them at LP's support tracker | 08:38 |
| Burgwork | s/the main/any of the ubuntu repos/ | 08:39 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: this is already done by launchpad-integration on an per app base | 08:40 |
| Burgwork | no reason not to say, on each application "you can get support for this via Launchpad" | 08:41 |
| Burgwork | but I think pointing at Canonical is mostly useless for the home user, who is currently the primary user of g-a-i | 08:41 |
| glatzor | I am not quite familiar with the support infrastructure of launchpad | 08:41 |
| Burgwork | https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+tickets | 08:42 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: to be honest, it is about advertising canonical :) | 08:43 |
| Burgwork | right, well I just don't see value in advertising canonicals support services through gai | 08:43 |
| glatzor | perhaps some commercial users have been "normal" users before | 08:43 |
| Burgwork | you are more likely just to piss off the community and not gain anything | 08:43 |
| Burgwork | because canonical really doesn't want the small fry | 08:44 |
| Burgwork | therefor, the better place to list that kind of support would be on that LP page, with a link to the Ubuntu page | 08:46 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: could you discuss this with mdy? he wanted a visual better visual representation for canonical's services. so this was a proposal by me. | 08:49 |
| Burgwork | right | 08:50 |
| glatzor | i am no insider of canonical :) | 08:50 |
| Burgwork | mdy will listen to me | 08:50 |
| Burgwork | there are many great places to mention the many support options for Ubuntu. gai is not one of them | 08:50 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: so you would also limited the "is supported by" info only to ISV applications? | 08:54 |
| Burgwork | yes | 08:54 |
| Burgwork | that might also include things in multiverse | 08:54 |
| Burgwork | it has to be a case by case basis | 08:54 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: isn't dapper-commercial the better place for commercially supported applications? | 08:55 |
| Burgwork | yes, but there a few things in multiverse that also have ISVs behind them, like vmware-player and desktop-multiplier | 08:56 |
| Burgwork | basically, we need to compile of list of applications and the links the should have and add those | 08:57 |
| Burgwork | everything else should point to the LP support tracker | 08:57 |
| glatzor | Burgwork: If we don't make a difference for not and supported by Canonical applications, I think that we could also skip this launchpad information completely | 08:59 |
| glatzor | it was also planned as a feature that should provide the user more orientation and not as a support entry point. | 09:00 |
| Burgwork | right | 09:01 |
| Burgwork | I just don't see what value that provides to the user | 09:01 |
| Burgwork | however, listing where they can get support is a great thing | 09:02 |
| Burgwork | if you think about it, large companies that want to contact Canonical are going to do their research and find out about it | 09:03 |
| glatzor | Indeed. Perhaps this information cannot be mentioned too much :) | 09:04 |
| Burgwork | then they are going to sit down with Canonical and learn about the support options | 09:04 |
| Burgwork | a listing in gai is not going to do anything but piss off the 95% of the users who see it and wonder if Ubuntu is going commercial | 09:04 |
| glatzor | But what about a user that wants to use for example panda security desktop. | 09:04 |
| nixternal | robotgeek: pingaling? | 09:04 |
| Burgwork | that is the ISV case we already talked about | 09:04 |
| Burgwork | I am talking about non-ISV stuff (95% of the repos) | 09:04 |
| glatzor | ah ok, got that wrong. thought that you would still refer to the ISV apps | 09:05 |
| Burgwork | no | 09:06 |
| glatzor | It would be nice if you could notify me about a final conclusion with mdy | 09:06 |
| Burgwork | I will | 09:07 |
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| Burgwork | hey Madpilot, rob | 09:32 |
| Madpilot | hi Burgwork - slacking hard, are you? | 09:32 |
| Burgwork | of course | 09:33 |
| Madpilot | good to hear | 09:36 |
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| jenda | http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/knot2 is a great piece of work | 09:50 |
| Burgwork | jenda, thanks | 09:51 |
| jenda | Madpilot: just after you left earlier, I suggested I might consider your flyers for the next batch of shipped DIY material (batch 3 or 4 - posters have priority, and there might be one more of stickers before). | 09:52 |
| Madpilot | jenda, cool. Burgwork is going to do an editing run thru the text on them, I think | 09:53 |
| jenda | Don't worry - it will take me at least a month before I'm done with posters... | 09:53 |
| jenda | :) | 09:53 |
| jenda | If somebody catches the line and beats me to shipping flyers - _great_ | 09:53 |
| jenda | Burgwork: am I wrong... or does that page _not_ link to a download? | 09:59 |
| Burgwork | yes, I just realized that | 10:00 |
| Burgwork | need to fix it | 10:00 |
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| Burgwork | http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/edgy/knot-2/ <-- anybody else getting a blank screen here? | 10:03 |
| mdke | works here | 10:04 |
| Burgwork | ok, that is good | 10:04 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, ping | 10:07 |
| LaserJock | what? | 10:08 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: ? | 10:08 |
| === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === theCore [n=alex@modemcable069.137-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
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