[05:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> i just found some pages that should be in the help wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingFirefox . that said. the whole debugging section of the wiki is replicated across both. it might need consolidation?
[05:25] <Burgundavia> Kamping_Kaiser: feel free to move pages to the help wiki
[05:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> Burgundavia, i'm heading out soon. if i feel brave enojugh i'll try when i get home
[05:26] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[06:12] <nixternal> jsgotangco: keep an eye out on the planet, an attack is heading your way ;)
[06:15] <jsgotangco> wahaha
[06:15] <jsgotangco> attack me?
[06:20] <jsgotangco> nixternal: well i really didnt ride the metro in chicago
[06:20] <jsgotangco> was piggybacking with my bro's jeep
[06:20] <nixternal> ahh hehe
[06:21] <nixternal> still..you lived in the city and still didn't hit the cta or the l
[06:21] <nixternal> ;)
[06:21] <jsgotangco> hahah yeah shame on me
[06:21] <jsgotangco> ill be there in december
[06:21] <nixternal> i hate trains with a passion..but when my x-wife and i traveled europe and lived over there when i was in the military..we took trains everywhere
[06:21] <nixternal> really..i will be in chicago in december too ;)
[06:21] <nixternal> Ubuntu chicago meeting, and you are giving a talke ;)
[06:22] <jsgotangco> will spend the new year there
[06:23] <nixternal> good ol' new years..gotta hit division for that..poets, mothers, and all the good clubs
[06:23] <nixternal> i don't drink..so they are boring to me now
[06:25] <crimsun> nixternal will be a raging ubuntu-aholic by january '07
[06:25] <nixternal> heh
[06:26] <nixternal> i already am..well Kubuntu-aholic that is ;)
[06:27] <jsgotangco> if the meme consisted of airles, sabdfl would have his own airline brand
[06:27] <jsgotangco> lol
[06:28] <nixternal> hehe
[06:28] <nixternal> i hate flying and i hate trains
[06:28] <nixternal> driving is my only mode of transportation i feel safe with
[02:51] <jenda> Burgwork: ping
[02:51] <jenda> I'm looking for some good reference concerning Ubuntu, Ubuntu Linux and Ubuntu GNU/Linux
[02:51] <jenda> (A link would feel better than just typing off the top of my head)
[04:08] <HighBit> http://www.newsobserver.com/1325/story/481029.html
[06:27] <Burgwork> jenda, pong
[06:27] <jenda_> aha
[06:28] <jenda_> What was it that i wanted? :-D
[06:28] <Burgwork> the gnu/linux, linux thing
[06:28] <jenda_> aha ;)
[06:28] <Burgwork> ubuntu is just ubuntu primarily to establish our own brand and primarily to avoid the whole holy war
[06:29] <jenda_> good point there
[06:29] <Burgwork> we refer to ourselves as based on Linux, not based on GNU/Linux, becuase Linux is what the average consumer knows
[06:29] <LaserJock> Burgwork: can you get to https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+calendar/+subscriptions
[06:29] <Burgwork> plus GNU/Linux is a mouthful
[06:30] <trappist> especially if you don't happen to know how to pronounce gnu, which isn't really obvious
[06:30] <trappist> I hate reading stuff I don't know how to pronounce.
[06:30] <jenda_> OK, thx
[06:30] <LaserJock> or you think that Ubuntu is based on some Linux offshoot
[06:31] <jenda_> I'll have a look at what i wrote...
[06:31] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I can get there. What should I be looking for?
[06:32] <LaserJock> hmm, are there like a million subscriptions
[06:32] <LaserJock> I can't seem to get there (timeout)
[06:33] <LaserJock> and whenever I go to a calendar on LP I get probably close to a thousand "Ubuntu Documentation Project" lines under Subscriptions
[06:33] <Burgwork> interesting
[06:34] <LaserJock> makes it very slow to get to calendars
[06:35] <LaserJock> and I can't do some other things with the calendars because of timeouts
[06:35] <Burgwork> ask in #launchpad
[06:35] <LaserJock> I did :/
[06:35] <LaserJock> ever so good at ignoring me, as usual
[06:35] <Burgwork> right, ask again
[06:40] <jsgotangco> but its my opinion
[06:42] <Burgwork> jsgotangco, right and that is why we are not GNU/Linux
[06:42] <Burgwork> because RMS is a raving lunatic
[06:43] <jsgotangco> we're not really going to put that guy in the equation really
[06:43] <jsgotangco> even if he dies tomorrow GNU will still live
[06:44] <LaserJock> well, I just object to it on principle of it being confusing and somewhat nonsensical, but I can see why some people would disagree :-)
[06:45] <trappist> so I can resume my s/GNU\/Linux/Linux/g campaign?
[07:53] <glatzor> hi mdke. is there an other document that describes how to get support by the community then https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-help.html?
[07:54] <glatzor> mdke: I would like to integrate an "get help/support" function in gnome-app-install
[07:55] <glatzor> mdke: if the app is supported by canonical or an isv we could direct the user to a corresponding web site
[07:55] <glatzor> but how to deal with apps that are only supported by the community?
[07:56] <nixternal> like automatix and easyubuntu?
[07:56] <LaserJock> nixternal: noooooo
[07:56] <nixternal> haha
[07:56] <nixternal> i don't use them anyways
[07:57] <nixternal> apps supported by the community would be 3rd party apps?  or did i totally miss soemthing there ;)
[07:58] <LaserJock> Universe
[07:58] <nixternal> or ya, those too ;)
[07:58] <nixternal> haha
[07:58] <LaserJock> 3rd party is different
[07:58] <glatzor> nixternal: universe and the rest of the world
[07:58] <LaserJock> 3rd party is supported by the 3rd party
[07:59] <glatzor> nixternal: an app can be supported by canonical, isv (third party) or only the community
[08:00] <glatzor> I think that it isn't wrong that all apps are somehow supported by the community
[08:00] <nixternal> ya, i read into wrong, just like i figured ;)
[08:01] <LaserJock> well, I suppose it could be supported by Ubuntu, supported by Canonical, supported by community, supported by other 3rd party
[08:01] <LaserJock> or something similar
[08:01] <nixternal> or supported by LaserJock ;)
[08:01] <LaserJock> heh, that would fall under "community"
[08:02] <nixternal> oh, so you are the community then ;)
[08:03] <LaserJock> part of anyway :-)
[08:03] <glatzor> nixternal, LaserJock: guys, but to return to my first question: do you now any central document for getting help from the community?
[08:05] <nixternal> there is one in the works, that i do know
[08:05] <nixternal> the one that Andreas (lloydhino) has been working on
[08:05] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure if that's what glatzor is looking for
[08:05] <glatzor> nixternal: it's not about contributing
[08:05] <nixternal> about kubuntu has contribute links i believe..but i don't know about ubuntu
[08:06] <LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
[08:06] <glatzor> nixternal: I search for asite that provides a solution for "If I have got a problem in my Ubuntu, where could I get help"
[08:06] <nixternal> i don't know of any like that really
[08:07] <LaserJock> well, there is help.ubuntu.com
[08:07] <glatzor> but that is quite generic
[08:07] <nixternal> and most of help.ubuntu.com is installed in docs locally anyways
[08:07] <LaserJock> well, help.ubuntu.com/community in particular
[08:07] <glatzor> I even thought about linking directly to the forums
[08:07] <nixternal> front page of help.ubuntu.com that is
[08:07] <nixternal> ya
[08:08] <LaserJock> glatzor: I'd rather not see that
[08:08] <glatzor> i am off for some minutes
[08:08] <nixternal> i can see though however, it would be nice to have a "Help" section that would list all of the locations, with a brief description to go for help
[08:08] <nixternal> his boss just walked by ;)
[08:09] <LaserJock> well, http://www.ubuntu.com/support
[08:09] <nixternal> that is great, but if i install Ubuntu on a system for someone, they might not know about that page
[08:09] <LaserJock> oh, well that's not the point
[08:09] <LaserJock> he was looking for a doc for g-a-i I think
[08:09] <nixternal> ahh
[08:10] <nixternal> for instance...in KHelpCenter, there is a doc "KDE on the Web"
[08:10] <nixternal> how about creating something similar "Ubuntu on the Web" that would list the support pages maybe
[08:10] <LaserJock> I guess ideally they should all go to the Support tracker on LP
[08:11] <mdke> hiya
[08:11] <nixternal> yes, but at the same time. support tracker is the most efficient either
[08:11] <LaserJock> yeah
[08:11] <nixternal> ekdm ayih
[08:11] <mdke> I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i
[08:11] <LaserJock> but it *will* be the Ubuntu support tool
[08:11] <mdke> it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using
[08:12] <nixternal> hmm.. LaserJock, i meant to say that support tracker ISN'T the most efficient
[08:12] <LaserJock> mdke: I think he was just looking for generic thing to mention where to get support of Universe apps
[08:12] <nixternal> +1 with mdke and the app providing help
[08:12] <LaserJock> well, sure
[08:12] <LaserJock> I didn't see it as replacing app help or anything
[08:12] <mdke> anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now
[08:13] <LaserJock> just trying to show people the difference between the various "kinds" of software
[08:16] <mdke> so, we *really* need to have a meeting
[08:17] <mdke> when can we do this?
[08:18] <nixternal> right now?
[08:18] <LaserJock> next Wednesday at 19:00 UTC?
[08:18] <nixternal> just kidding
[08:18] <mdke> nixternal: is a good idea.
[08:18] <nixternal> heh
[08:18] <mdke> LaserJock: that would work for me, dunno about others
[08:19] <LaserJock> if I remember right, 19:00-21:00 was pretty good for most people
[08:19] <nixternal> i will be pimping Ubuntu at the college then ;)
[08:20] <mdke> we just need to sort out some licensing things
[08:21] <LaserJock> ah
[08:21] <LaserJock> and poke people about working on docs
[08:21] <LaserJock> ;-)
[08:22] <nixternal> im working on some...i would like to help robotgeek with the kdg, but he is one busy dude
[08:23] <mdke> LaserJock: yes, some poking would work
[08:23] <mdke> glatzor: I haven't read all the scrollback about your idea yet, but my first impression about what you said is:
[08:23] <mdke> 19:13:20 < mdke> I don't see the point of providing help through g-a-i
[08:23] <mdke> 19:13:41 < mdke> it seems logical to me that help is provided through the application that the user is using
[08:23] <mdke> 19:14:41 < mdke> anyway, we now do have a separate "get help" doc, although it isn't very good right now
[08:27] <glatzor> mdke: the focus is on promoting canonical and its servers more in the user interface
[08:28] <glatzor> the question is what to do if an app is only supported by the community
[08:29] <glatzor> for canonical or isv the case would be quite clear: "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd."
[08:29] <mdke> glatzor: I'm not sure I get the point, maybe I'll understand better when reading the scrollback/an email. But now there is a Help menu with the support options, I don't quite see how including something in g-a-i would work, it might in fact provide confusing... not sure
[08:33] <mdke> I'd certainly like to expand our "how to get more help" doc
[08:33] <glatzor> mdke: I give you an example: for all applications main there will be the following sentence in the description of the application:
[08:34] <glatzor> "You can get commercial support for BLABLA from Canonical Ltd."
[08:34] <mdke> "there will be the following sentence", or "there could be the following sentence"?
[08:34] <mdke> (just trying to get a feel for whether this is up for discussion, or has already been decided)
[08:34] <glatzor> I am discussing this with mdy currently
[08:35] <Burgwork> LaserJock, pong
[08:35] <glatzor> mdke: but the question is how to handle apps that are not commercially supported (by canonical or isv)
[08:35] <LaserJock> Burgwork: thought you might want to weigh in on the current discussion
[08:35] <mdke> glatzor: and is the focus based on what is best for the user, or what is best for Canonical in terms of marketing their services? 
[08:35] <glatzor> perhaps it's the best to not show anything for these apps
[08:35] <mdke> again, that sounds rude, but I'm trying to get a feeling for the discussion
[08:36] <Burgwork> right
[08:36] <glatzor> I think that it is also of interest of the user for which apps he could get support
[08:36] <Burgwork> so the current plan is to show that you can get support for an app from canonical is g-a-i?
[08:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, thanks?
[08:37] <mdke> Burgwork: I think that seems an accurate summary
[08:37] <glatzor> the plan is to enhance g-a-i and not to make g-a-i a central entry point for support questions
[08:37] <Burgwork> so how does that help my aunt or grandmother?
[08:37] <mdke> I see
[08:37] <LaserJock> Burgwork: sorry? :-)
[08:37] <glatzor> Burgwork: If you paid for the support this is of interest for you.
[08:37] <Burgwork> for me, the vast majority of users of g-a-i are going to be home users and those learning that they can get support from canonical is uselss
[08:38] <Burgwork> becuase commercial users (who care about this kind of thing) are not going to see gai
[08:38] <Burgwork> so lets seperate out the isv stuff and the stuff in ubuntu's repos
[08:38] <Burgwork> for the former case, I think it makes sense to point them at the isv
[08:38] <Burgwork> for anything in the main repos, I would simply point them at LP's support tracker
[08:39] <Burgwork> s/the main/any of the ubuntu repos/
[08:40] <glatzor> Burgwork: this is already done by launchpad-integration on an per app base
[08:41] <Burgwork> no reason not to say, on each application "you can get support for this via Launchpad"
[08:41] <Burgwork> but I think pointing at Canonical is mostly useless for the home user, who is currently the primary user of g-a-i
[08:41] <glatzor> I am not quite familiar with the support infrastructure of launchpad
[08:42] <Burgwork> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+tickets
[08:43] <glatzor> Burgwork: to be honest, it is about advertising canonical :)
[08:43] <Burgwork> right, well I just don't see value in advertising canonicals support services through gai
[08:43] <glatzor> perhaps some commercial users have been "normal" users before
[08:43] <Burgwork> you are more likely just to piss off the community and not gain anything
[08:44] <Burgwork> because canonical really doesn't want the small fry
[08:46] <Burgwork> therefor, the better place to list that kind of support would be on that LP page, with a link to the Ubuntu page
[08:49] <glatzor> Burgwork: could you discuss this with mdy? he wanted a visual better visual representation for canonical's services. so this was a proposal by me.
[08:50] <Burgwork> right
[08:50] <glatzor> i am no insider of canonical :)
[08:50] <Burgwork> mdy will listen to me
[08:50] <Burgwork> there are many great places to mention the many support options for Ubuntu. gai is not one of them
[08:54] <glatzor> Burgwork: so you would also limited the "is supported by" info only to ISV applications?
[08:54] <Burgwork> yes
[08:54] <Burgwork> that might also include things in multiverse
[08:54] <Burgwork> it has to be a case by case basis
[08:55] <glatzor> Burgwork: isn't dapper-commercial the better place for commercially supported applications?
[08:56] <Burgwork> yes, but there a few things in multiverse that also have ISVs behind them, like vmware-player and desktop-multiplier
[08:57] <Burgwork> basically, we need to compile of list of applications and the links the should have and add those
[08:57] <Burgwork> everything else should point to the LP support tracker
[08:59] <glatzor> Burgwork: If we don't make a difference for not and supported by Canonical applications, I think that we could also skip this launchpad information completely
[09:00] <glatzor> it was also planned as a feature that should provide the user more orientation and not as a support entry point.
[09:01] <Burgwork> right
[09:01] <Burgwork> I just don't see what value that provides to the user
[09:02] <Burgwork> however, listing where they can get support is a great thing
[09:03] <Burgwork> if you think about it, large companies that want to contact Canonical are going to do their research and find out about it
[09:04] <glatzor> Indeed. Perhaps this information cannot be mentioned too much :)
[09:04] <Burgwork> then they are going to sit down with Canonical and learn about the support options
[09:04] <Burgwork> a listing in gai is not going to do anything but piss off the 95% of the users who see it and wonder if Ubuntu is going commercial
[09:04] <glatzor> But what about a user that wants to use for example panda security desktop.
[09:04] <nixternal> robotgeek: pingaling?
[09:04] <Burgwork> that is the ISV case we already talked about
[09:04] <Burgwork> I am talking about non-ISV stuff (95% of the repos)
[09:05] <glatzor> ah ok, got that wrong. thought that you would still refer to the ISV apps
[09:06] <Burgwork> no
[09:06] <glatzor> It would be nice if you could notify me about a final conclusion with mdy
[09:07] <Burgwork> I will
[09:32] <Burgwork> hey Madpilot, rob 
[09:32] <Madpilot> hi Burgwork - slacking hard, are you?
[09:33] <Burgwork> of course
[09:36] <Madpilot> good to hear
[09:50] <jenda> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/knot2 is a great piece of work
[09:51] <Burgwork> jenda, thanks
[09:52] <jenda> Madpilot: just after you left earlier, I suggested I might consider your flyers for the next batch of shipped DIY material (batch 3 or 4 - posters have priority, and there might be one more of stickers before).
[09:53] <Madpilot> jenda, cool. Burgwork is going to do an editing run thru the text on them, I think
[09:53] <jenda> Don't worry - it will take me at least a month before I'm done with posters...
[09:53] <jenda> :)
[09:53] <jenda> If somebody catches the line and beats me to shipping flyers - _great_
[09:59] <jenda> Burgwork: am I wrong... or does that page _not_ link to a download?
[10:00] <Burgwork> yes, I just realized that
[10:00] <Burgwork> need to fix it
[10:03] <Burgwork> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/edgy/knot-2/ <-- anybody else getting a blank screen here?
[10:04] <mdke> works here
[10:04] <Burgwork> ok, that is good
[10:07] <Burgwork> LaserJock, ping
[10:08] <LaserJock> what?
[10:08] <LaserJock> Burgwork: ?