[12:08] the normal user can't read it === desrt wonders what the last [whatever] release is [12:09] knot [12:09] knot2 [12:10] oh. yesterday. that's convenient. [12:10] can your computer take the knot? [12:10] pfft. === didymo [n=ashley@CPE-61-9-197-223.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:12] So after Edgy, what are we going to have? We've seen a pig, some kind of spiky bush, a badger, a duck, and now a lizard. [12:12] any kernel gurus around? I'm trying to figure out if one driver ( pktcdvd ) can hook another device ( /dev/hda ) and filter requests to it, rather than create its own new device ( /dev/pktcdvd/0 ) [12:12] I vote for a mink! http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lc_xNywG2KI [12:12] bluefoxicy: please take it to -ot [12:12] possibly by replacing the lower layer device's device_operations? [12:13] tseng: I appear to still be pseudobanned [12:13] this isnt the refugee channel for -ot, in any case [12:13] <_ion> I'd vote for a giraffe, or perhaps a squirrel. :-) [12:13] tseng: I thought it was semi-ontopic but eh :P [12:14] only by the longest stretch possible === TMM [n=hp@c51471f2c.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:14] Seveas: I vote that you cannae inslut me in channels I'm incapable of responding in! === xt [n=xt@83.242.11.11] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:20] tseng: btw pax-utils is in universe if you want it [12:23] i saw, nice work [12:27] hmm. I don't see a TEXTREL/PIC patch for sdl 1.2.11 in Gentoo, did that stuff go upstream? [12:27] (we have 1.2.10) === bluefoxicy grabs 1.2.11 from upstream and checks for a few of the changes in the gentoo patches === wasabi__ [n=wasabi@c-67-162-246-8.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Frederick [n=Frederic@unaffiliated/frederick] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:30] whoa, upstream just commented it out and said "FIXME" [12:31] question: does anyone know of an ide that doesn't get in your way, but does support cool features such as code-completion and code-folding? I currently use gnome-terminal with multiple tabs and vim, anything I've tried so far annoys the hell out of me :) [12:31] well, looks like they got their attention, I'll e-mail them and point them at portage CVS. o.o [12:32] TMM: the problem with every ide is: not vim [12:32] TMM, emacs ;) [12:32] tseng: I sure hope that that is not the problem, then I'm pretty much stuck :) [12:33] TMM: Apparently a new one just came in called geany or something like that that someone said was decent [12:33] TMM: beats me, I personally can't use anything else [12:33] vim has code folding [12:33] it does? [12:33] it does. [12:34] google vim folding [12:34] does it have code-completion as well? I'd love that :) I saw a vb monkey use it in microsoft develop... stuff thingy, it looked pretty nifty === phanatic [n=phanatic@ubuntu/member/phanatic] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:34] it does, but i heard it is less the fantastic [12:35] I've not seen any good C/C++ code completion under linux [12:35] monodevelop does a good job with C# [12:35] but that's as close as I think we get [12:35] folks insnt openssl dev present in multiverse? [12:35] it looks nifty, but if you know what you are doing it isn't helpful [12:35] and can touch type decently [12:35] psusi: that's the thing... I don't always know what I'm doing in a new language / library [12:36] psusi: it's an appreciable feature [12:36] well, I didn't do a lot of glib coding, and I am using it pretty heavily now, but I don't know the api very well, I think it might be faster than going to firefox and look at the api docs all the time [12:36] not a must, but definitely a great bonus [12:36] Frederick: how about libssl-dev [12:36] I usually just rely on etags [12:36] again, not a must, but a great bonus [12:36] if I forget a parameter or something, M-. and look it up [12:36] tseng, thanks a lot [12:36] and I do respect visual studio's code completion abilities [12:36] TMM: 'gtkdoc' ? [12:36] quite dynamic/intelligent, and not cpu hogging [12:37] then i usually end up reading the implementation anyhow and learnign something not documented about it ;) [12:37] tseng: I've got it locally, but still... is gtkdoc something else? [12:37] TMM: sorry, devhelp === Keybuk [n=scott@syndicate.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:37] TMM: (is the reader) [12:38] <_ion> tmm: Vim7 has omnicompletion. [12:38] ow, shiney, I've got vim7 [12:38] I am pretty sure vim6 didn't have all that kind of stuff [12:39] perhaps I should invest some time looking into vim some more, probably the way of the least resistance in this case [12:39] <_ion> tmm: It's similar to "IntelliSense" in MSVC (the thing you mentioned you saw someone using). === FunnyLookinHat [n=funnyloo@64.140.73.93] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:39] 'intellisense' well, that sounds like something microsoft would call code completion :) [12:39] _ion: is it as good as intellisense? [12:40] intellisense is godly [12:40] microsoft has full rights to that name, IMO :) [12:40] wasn't that the silly thing where if you pressed Enter twice, it'd think you wanted a title? [12:40] Keybuk: that's autoformat [12:40] which was Intellidense? [12:40] yeah [12:40] Keybuk: I think the vb monkeys using it === jdong glad visual studio has not adopted clippy [12:41] TMM: have you tried monodevelop? [12:41] <_ion> jdong: I have no experience with IntelliSense. Can you describe what you mean? [12:41] TMM: its code completion is a clone of intellisense [12:41] jdong: for C code? [12:41] TMM: no, not for C :-/ [12:41] C# [12:41] _ion: it's for C/C++, autocomplete [12:41] _ion: very similar to monodevelop caliber [12:41] no, I haven't I don't know all that much C#, I prefer python :) [12:42] Seveas: madness! but sweet [12:42] it autocompletes both from API's, included headers, your project files, anywhere [12:42] it's very dynamic... will only suggest things that are valid... I've seen kdevelop/anjuta give erroneous suggestions [12:42] and it's robust... a syntax error won't pollute/confuse intellisense [12:43] I'm not sure how it indexes code so dynamically... it runs smoothly even on old computers [12:43] but it reacts instantly to changes in the code [12:43] basically, it's magic [12:43] it is also closed source horse-shit :) [12:44] and, unuseable for my purposes ;) [12:44] I know. we need something as good as it but open source [12:44] jdong: oh, QuickBasic had something like that [12:44] and if you stopped the program, and selected a variable, its debugger could tell you what the value was [12:44] not to mention where in your program it was used, etc. [12:44] Keybuk: yep, intellisense does that too in debugging mode [12:44] and when you start writing a function call, it provides a tooltip with the prototype [12:45] bolding the current part you're working on [12:45] and for overloaded functions, it's smart enough to guess which overload you're trying to use [12:45] am still surprised no open source editor does that kind of thing [12:45] tseng: devhelp isn't a whole lot more useful than firefox, in fact, a bit less useful as it doesn't have tabs :) [12:45] the open source clones of it are pretty lame right now [12:45] especially for C/C++ [12:45] anjuta annoys the hell out of me [12:45] monodevelop does a good job for C# [12:46] so, basically, I am stuck? :) [12:46] TMM: sorry :( [12:46] TMM: it's on all of our wishlists [12:46] :) [12:46] most of us are perfectly content with vi/emacs, I think [12:46] thrilled, even [12:47] you windows weenies should be so lucky [12:47] yes, but that's if you know what you're doing [12:47] :) [12:47] it's definitely not "RAD-friendly" [12:47] hehe [12:47] (another MS term I am crazy over) [12:47] that's about all I really envy from MS products [12:47] I am pretty rapid in vi [12:48] and for something you pay 10000 for, it better be damn good :) [12:48] tseng: I'm not a 'windows weeny' [12:48] tseng: nah, I'm definitely not content with emacs [12:48] tseng: you know what you're doing though [12:48] jdong: (we hope) [12:48] you better! [12:48] lol [12:48] that geany doesn't even look half bad [12:48] I like to be able to open up a random OSS project and start changing it :) [12:49] and for that, I need an intellisense and a fancy GUI designer === jdong hopes that explains to tseng why I was so excited over monodevelop last night === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@c58-107-62-26.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:51] jdong: for GNOME stuff, I keep a fully-TAGS'd copy of the GNOME platform and desktop source around [12:52] then I can lookup the code of what I'm trying to do [12:52] I need to play around a bit more with this TAGS stuff [12:52] haven't really found the time yet [12:52] tags rules [12:52] I'm sure I can find these tools satifying my intellisense crave [12:53] but it sure requires a bit more effort than having a free copy of VS.NET mailed to me :) [12:54] tseng: does mono/C# support generics? === jdong is not too up to date on C# news [12:54] jdong: yes of course [12:54] but you need to use gmcs [12:54] gmcs? [12:54] and 2.0 assemblies [12:54] mcs + generics [12:54] oh [12:54] and mono in edgy supports .net 2.0? [12:55] yes [12:55] cool [12:55] dapper? [12:55] yes [12:55] cool [12:55] jdong: MSDN? [12:55] Keybuk: nope, employer === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:55] Keybuk: we have this stupid embedded toolchain that requires the fanciest edition of VS.NET [12:55] tseng: did you hear me whining earlier about xsp being uninstallable in edgy? [12:56] yes, I did [12:56] I would rather never see that package again [12:56] patches accepted, bugs at least [12:56] tseng: is edgy gonna support xsp/asp.net then? [12:57] that sounds like a loaded question [12:57] loaded question? === jdong just wants to see what asp.net is like with mono [12:57] <_ion> jdong: http://vissale.neang.free.fr/Vim/OmniCppComplete/ScreenShots/screenshots.htm [12:57] from what I understand, that's xsp's job? [12:58] mono-xsp-base: Depends: mono-classlib-1.0 (< 1.1.14) but 1.1.16.1-0ubuntu3 is to be installed [12:58] ^ some jerk in debian adding a hard depend [12:58] tseng: if we take it out it'll be good? :) [12:58] I don't know [12:58] the least you could do is file a bug [12:58] _ion: looks very nice... just have to learn how it works [12:58] tseng: sorry, I'll file a bug... [12:58] instead of hoping I happen to see whining on irc [12:59] doesn't wining on irc get code written then? :) [12:59] not by me [12:59] tseng: bug 55433 [12:59] Malone bug 55433 in xsp "Please port to Mono 1.1.16" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/55433 [01:00] already filed a month back [01:00] thanks. [01:00] I'll rename it to soemthing actually usefull [01:00] k, awesome [01:01] thanks, tseng [01:01] the thing I always miss from old editors is the Borland "block copy" function [01:01] where you copied/pasted a square block rather than a number of lines [01:02] so you can cut a block of code, and paste it at a different indention level [01:02] <_ion> Vim has it. :-) [01:02] vim annoys me in myriad other ways [01:03] mostly it just lacks the most basic developer features [01:05] oh btw, Keybuk, I'm quite surprised at how well upstart replaced sysvinit [01:05] and is the console supposed to be ready to log in 2 seconds into bootup? [01:06] <_ion> keybuk: Worksforme. :-) [01:07] jdong: "surprised"? :p [01:07] Keybuk: I've had bad luck with init replacements in the past ;) [01:07] very bad luck ;) [01:07] :) [01:07] and don't give me this magic of ubuntu crap :) [01:07] if you do, I'll give you a hoary CD and the job of setting up a md RAID === jdong ducks [01:08] yeah, ubuntu sucks! it doesn't have emerge! [01:08] o wait, this isn't #gentoo-dev, now is it? [01:08] TMM: my hoary used to [01:08] jdong: md RAID probably won't work on edgy either [01:08] :) [01:08] heh, what's broken this time around? [01:09] jdong: emerge? for hoary? there's a ports ... ehh... port to debian? [01:09] TMM: I had some free time [01:09] TMM: transplanted portage from a stage3 tarball [01:09] jdong: you are a sick, sick man, someone ever told you that? :) [01:09] :) [01:09] hoary is when I migrated back from gentoo [01:10] so it was hard to part from emerge.... [01:10] universe was pretty stale back in hoary's days, too [01:10] jdong: otoh I'm writing a freely configurable lexer/parser, I've heard that that is considered quite insane as well :) [01:11] TMM: I haven't told you about the time I tried to stress reiser4 by placing an entire system under bzr version control, right? [01:11] jdong: you win, I'm a sane person, you need to be institutionalised [01:12] :) [01:12] jdong: also, how did it go? :) [01:12] TMM: surprisingly well, actually [01:12] reiser4 rocked at it [01:12] as in 'no crash, all good'? [01:12] bzr's ram usage was not impressive at the time [01:12] but it's improved since then [01:12] I would've kept reiser4 around had I the time to maintain my own kernel [01:13] I though when I was upgrading to edgy 'might as well go to reiser4 as well' but, I didn't dare to [01:13] but edgy's kernel is just too good for me to turn down [01:13] edgy's got reiser4, doesn't it? [01:13] no [01:13] reiser4 patches don't play well with other patches [01:13] meh [01:13] you gotta have a pretty vanilla kernel [01:13] else you run into strange corruption issues [01:13] lazy kernel team [01:13] :) [01:13] lol [01:14] I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with reiser4 patches [01:14] I merged xen patches with the ubuntu breezy patchset in under 4 days [01:14] that's xen [01:14] it was meant to be merged with a kernel :) [01:14] trust me, not all the ubuntu patches enjoy the xen patchset :) [01:14] TMM: they'll enjoy it much more than reiser4 [01:15] lol [01:15] I believe you :) [01:15] where nowadays it patches cleanly but just doesn't work well :) [01:15] that hurts [01:15] reiser4? or xen? [01:15] reiser4 [01:15] is mister hans reiser doing anything about it? [01:15] not really [01:16] so, we might not actually get any of the reiser4 goodness, ever? === aigarius [n=aigarius@82.152.74.5] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:16] TMM: the whole reiser4 in mainline thing looks depressing to me [01:16] which is just too bad :-/ [01:16] reiser4 is good technology [01:16] yeah, I've read some of the conversations between linus and hans [01:16] and, except when you patch it wrong, reiser4 is rock solid [01:17] it's currently the only atomic fs in linux [01:17] probably two of the most talented programmers in the world, duking it out on the interweb, pretty interesting, also, both, pretty damn subborn [01:18] I wish linus would just get over himself and bloody well rip out the linux vfs subsystem and replace it with reiser4 :) [01:18] does switching vts cause rainbow patterns for anyone else? [01:18] TMM: Please. God. No. === lotusleaf [n=lotuslea@unaffiliated/lotusleaf] has left #ubuntu-devel ["have] [01:19] Keybuk: I'm kind of fond of the idea of a vfs subsystem-with-plugins-in actually === Fujitsu concurs with Keybuk on this issue, but not on the Vim one :P [01:19] TMM: its actually alot more funny when bluefoxicy dukes it out with linus [01:19] tseng: yes, usplash has broken my consoles too [01:19] one's filesystem should behave predictably [01:19] otherwise a poor application author can't even guarantee that when they close() it's on the damned disk [01:19] tseng: take off splash, and it should be happier [01:19] Keybuk: you don't HAVE to use a reiser4 on-disk format with reiser4 as a vgs [01:19] Keybuk: vfs [01:20] tseng: what is his real name? [01:20] John Richard Moser [01:21] Ah! === desrt gets the impression that edgy has a lot of good work that you only see if you do a fresh reinstall [01:21] you can tell the fun threads because they end with a post from me saying "John, Please put down your bong" === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:22] tseng: but he's soooo cuuuuute [01:22] tseng: reading :) [01:22] tseng: a weapon of mass distraction :) [01:23] does beagle use up a considerable amount of space indexing? [01:23] jdong, yes. [01:23] I got a ~src directory with like 3GB of random source code... [01:24] I hope you mean ~/src [01:24] yeah [01:24] Ah. [01:24] I blame the keyboard [01:24] I was hoping I wasn't going to have to indict you for a breach of the FHS :P [01:25] why is that a breach? [01:25] ~/src is not a part of the FHS... now is it? :) [01:25] the FHS doesn't specify what you put in /etc/passwd [01:25] or are we all supposed to go and do a ~/.local/src or something? :) [01:25] No, but aren't you meant to only have user home directories in /home? [01:25] Fujitsu: no [01:25] Hm... [01:25] Oops. [01:25] Fujitsu: you can just have an 'src' user [01:26] TMM, you could, but not in that context. === Fujitsu runs away. [01:26] TMM: I _really_ do not get ~/.local [01:26] ~/. implies "user config" to me, already [01:26] Fujitsu: err... create a user, become root, and type 'cd ~' [01:27] Keybuk: well, I can see why that is useful, I'd like to see something to the effect of ~/.local/etc actually.... all those .config files/dirs in a homedir are pretty sucky imho [01:27] why are they sucky? [01:27] Keybuk: I don't like having a ~/bin dir either, I use ~/.local/bin [01:27] TMM: Yes, but it would be silly to have a src user for that sort of thing. [01:27] Keybuk: because there are so many of them [01:27] TMM: moving them into another directory won't change that? [01:27] Fujitsu: perhaps some anal security thing? :) [01:28] ls -d .* | wc -l [01:28] 831 [01:28] ls ~/.local/etc | wc -l [01:28] 831 [01:28] *shrug* [01:28] Keybuk: no, because they won't be right in ~/ [01:28] why aren't they right? [01:28] they've been there for 40 years [01:28] Keybuk: it would be a bit cleaner imho, also, ~/.local/etc they won't all have to start with a dot :) [01:28] why does that matter? [01:28] Now, that's not an entirely good attitude, Keybuk. [01:28] Just because they are there, doesn't mean it's right. [01:28] Keybuk: which would make discovery of the settings for average users a bit easyer [01:29] Fujitsu: right, but nobody's managed to tell me why they're wrong either [01:29] Although in this case the 40-year-old standard is right. [01:29] Keybuk: I was working on that [01:29] TMM: by hiding them even further inside the filesystem? [01:29] how is ~/.local/etc more discoverable than just ~/.* ? [01:29] Keybuk: there would be only one place to point your nautilus [01:29] there's only one place now [01:29] There is already, TMM. [01:29] ! [01:29] *! [01:29] **~ [01:29] then they are mixed with 'ordinary' files === Fujitsu hits the keyboard. [01:30] <_ion> I think there's a freedesktop.org spec about using ~/.config/programname/ (not ~/.local/etc). [01:30] I'd prefer a ~/.local structure [01:30] why not just ~/etc ? [01:30] so, software installed in the homedir of a user gets to go in ~/.local/bin and the configs in ~/.local/etc [01:31] Keybuk: that would be fine as well, but, I think ~/.local would be less pollution :) [01:31] <_ion> http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/ar01s03.html [01:31] in fact, we could probably expand the names to be more obvious too [01:31] /Documents and Settings/Scott James Remnant/Application Data/... [01:31] maybe [01:31] that isn't even that bad [01:31] but, 'documents AND settings' are confusing [01:32] ~/Documents and ~/Settings would be quite good [01:32] ah [01:32] so maybe I need a /home/scott and a /etc/scott ? :) [01:32] my stuff in one, config stuff in the other? [01:32] no, I fully agree with the /home stuff :) [01:32] you just disagreed with it :p [01:32] note the '~' at the beginning of my suggestion [01:32] /home = /Documents and Settings [01:33] it's used for both currently [01:33] no, /home/ is the 'root' of the user's system [01:33] you proposed splitting those [01:33] /home/.everything really is evil. [01:33] tseng: yes but when I duke it out with Linus it's on topics he admits he has no understanding of [01:33] <_ion> Let's just migrate all software to elektra. ;-) [01:33] desrt: why is it evil? [01:33] apple's /home/you/Library/ setup is a lot nicer [01:33] Keybuk; i hate having a million .*'s in my ~ [01:33] yes, but, ~/ should be the root of the users system :) [01:33] when Taenbaum does it Linus swears he knows more about it [01:33] it's seriously a pain in the ass [01:33] desrt: why? [01:34] Keybuk; because i can't see then and they don't glob when i say * [01:34] they're these files that aren't really files [01:34] TMM: maybe a user's ~ shouldn't be writable by them? but include common sub-directories like Desktop, Documents, Settings, etc? [01:34] like just now, in preparation to install edgy i did [01:34] desrt: *shrug* that's a fault of your shell's globbing, no? [01:34] ~$ mkdir old [01:34] ~$ mv * old [01:35] which of course failed to work [01:35] if you moved them to ~/.local they'd still be a hidden directory, so still be evil by your definition [01:35] Keybuk: no, I do not thing that a user should be forced into anything, but, I think a structure that makes more sense would be good [01:35] Keybuk; well, what about Library/? [01:35] Keybuk: I agreed on your ~/Settings idea!! [01:35] desrt: Library implies .so files to me [01:35] ya. it's a bad name [01:35] good approximate idea, though [01:35] desrt: I have to agree with Keybuk here [01:35] ~/Settings would be nice [01:35] ya. Settings is just fine by me [01:35] <_ion> Either small letters or a case-insensitive filesystem, please. :-) [01:35] just a rose by another name, imo :p [01:36] _ion; how do you feel about ~/Desktop and ~/Documents? [01:36] ~/etc ? :p [01:36] perhaps ~/Programs as well, but I think I'd prefer that to be hidden, to make it less likely that people will poke at it [01:36] my vague problem with /Useful Name/On/The Filesystem is that it's not translatable [01:36] <_ion> desrt: "documents" is fine, but desktop should .desktop (i.e. hidden). [01:36] the website needs a note on "alternate install CD" and says "use this if you are unsure" [01:36] Keybuk: well, with a reiser4 based vfs, we could have a plugin that does the translation at the kernel level ;) [01:36] _ion; i definitely disagree with that [01:37] TMM: even to the poor applications? [01:37] oh WTF [01:37] how would they know what directory name to use? [01:37] knot2 won't fit on a CD anymore? [01:37] Keybuk: well ~/Documents would work as well as ~/Documenten [01:37] TMM: what if you wanted both? [01:37] Please replace the disc in the drive with a supported disc with at least 670 MB free. The following disc types are supported: [01:37] CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+R DL, DVD+RW [01:37] ^^ burning knot2 to a blank CD [01:37] desrt: ubuntu hasn't fitted on a 640MB CD for a long time! [01:37] desrt, sure it's a 700MB CD? [01:37] ugggh [01:38] this is mad [01:38] Why is Ubuntu's emacspeak package so ancient? [01:38] ? [01:38] <_ion> keybuk: I've heard MacOSX translates them on-the-fly. The directory tree is always in English, but the user sees them based on the locale settings. === desrt overburns and hopes to get lucky [01:38] Keybuk: simple hashtable with the different names assosciated with a dir, and default the names to C, translate at the vfs level :) bluefoxicy it is your job to get that idea pas linus! :P [01:38] It's stuck at version 17.0 from 2002. contrast: http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/ [01:39] probably best to mark the dentries immutable though :) [01:40] TMM: hah, he hates me :) [01:40] later [01:40] TMM: you want to talk to me about something random, try file systems. :P === bluefoxicy heads off [01:40] bluefoxicy: he does? [01:40] bluefoxicy: bye! [01:40] bluefoxicy: ow, I've had this idea about a scattered filesystem! :) [01:41] well [01:41] bluefoxicy: basically, dump writes to the nearest emty place on the platter where the head happens to be, organise later [01:41] it appears to have worked === desrt wonders if it'll actually work [01:43] desrt: you say it 'appears' to be working :) [01:43] well [01:43] it burned without error [01:43]