[12:08] <cbx33> the normal user can't read it
[12:09] <desrt> knot
[12:09] <tseng> knot2
[12:10] <desrt> oh.  yesterday.  that's convenient.
[12:10] <bluefoxicy> can your computer take the knot?
[12:10] <desrt> pfft.
[12:12] <bluefoxicy> So after Edgy, what are we going to have?  We've seen a pig, some kind of spiky bush, a badger, a duck, and now a lizard.
[12:12] <psusi> any kernel gurus around?  I'm trying to figure out if one driver ( pktcdvd ) can hook another device ( /dev/hda ) and filter requests to it, rather than create its own new device ( /dev/pktcdvd/0 )
[12:12] <bluefoxicy> I vote for a mink!  http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lc_xNywG2KI
[12:12] <tseng> bluefoxicy: please take it to -ot
[12:12] <psusi> possibly by replacing the lower layer device's device_operations?
[12:13] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  I appear to still be pseudobanned
[12:13] <tseng> this isnt the refugee channel for -ot, in any case
[12:13] <_ion> I'd vote for a giraffe, or perhaps a squirrel. :-)
[12:13] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  I thought it was semi-ontopic but eh :P
[12:14] <bluefoxicy> only by the longest stretch possible
[12:14] <bluefoxicy> Seveas:  I vote that you cannae inslut me in channels I'm incapable of responding in!
[12:20] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  btw pax-utils is in universe if you want it
[12:23] <tseng> i saw, nice work
[12:27] <bluefoxicy> hmm.  I don't see a TEXTREL/PIC patch for sdl 1.2.11 in Gentoo, did that stuff go upstream?
[12:27] <bluefoxicy> (we have 1.2.10)
[12:30] <bluefoxicy> whoa, upstream just commented it out and said "FIXME"
[12:31] <TMM> question: does anyone know of an ide that doesn't get in your way, but does support cool features such as code-completion and code-folding? I currently use gnome-terminal with multiple tabs and vim, anything I've tried so far annoys the hell out of me :)
[12:31] <bluefoxicy> well, looks like they got their attention, I'll e-mail them and point them at portage CVS.  o.o
[12:32] <tseng> TMM: the problem with every ide is: not vim
[12:32] <psusi> TMM, emacs ;)
[12:32] <TMM> tseng: I sure hope that that is not the problem, then I'm pretty much stuck :)
[12:33] <bddebian> TMM: Apparently a new one just came in called geany or something like that that someone said was decent
[12:33] <tseng> TMM: beats me, I personally can't use anything else
[12:33] <tseng> vim has code folding
[12:33] <TMM> it does?
[12:33] <tseng> it does.
[12:34] <tseng> google vim folding
[12:34] <TMM> does it have code-completion as well? I'd love that :) I saw a vb monkey use it in microsoft develop... stuff thingy, it looked pretty nifty
[12:34] <tseng> it does, but i heard it is less the fantastic
[12:35] <jdong> I've not seen any good C/C++ code completion under linux
[12:35] <jdong> monodevelop does a good job with C#
[12:35] <jdong> but that's as close as I think we get
[12:35] <Frederick> folks insnt openssl dev present in multiverse?
[12:35] <psusi> it looks nifty, but if you know what you are doing it isn't helpful
[12:35] <psusi> and can touch type decently
[12:35] <jdong> psusi: that's the thing... I don't always know what I'm doing in a new language / library
[12:36] <jdong> psusi: it's an appreciable feature
[12:36] <TMM> well, I didn't do a lot of glib coding, and I am using it pretty heavily now, but I don't know the api very well, I think it might be faster than going to firefox and look at the api docs all the time
[12:36] <jdong> not a must, but definitely a great bonus
[12:36] <tseng> Frederick: how about libssl-dev
[12:36] <psusi> I usually just rely on etags
[12:36] <jdong> again, not a must, but a great bonus
[12:36] <psusi> if I forget a parameter or something, M-. and look it up
[12:36] <Frederick> tseng, thanks a lot
[12:36] <jdong> and I do respect visual studio's code completion abilities
[12:36] <tseng> TMM: 'gtkdoc' ?
[12:36] <jdong> quite dynamic/intelligent, and not cpu hogging
[12:37] <psusi> then i usually end up reading the implementation anyhow and learnign something not documented about it ;)
[12:37] <TMM> tseng: I've got it locally, but still... is gtkdoc something else?
[12:37] <tseng> TMM: sorry, devhelp
[12:37] <tseng> TMM: (is the reader)
[12:38] <_ion> tmm: Vim7 has omnicompletion.
[12:38] <TMM> ow, shiney, I've got vim7
[12:38] <TMM> I am pretty sure vim6 didn't have all that kind of stuff
[12:39] <TMM> perhaps I should invest some time looking into vim some more, probably the way of the least resistance in this case
[12:39] <_ion> tmm: It's similar to "IntelliSense" in MSVC (the thing you mentioned you saw someone using).
[12:39] <TMM> 'intellisense' well, that sounds like something microsoft would call code completion :)
[12:39] <jdong> _ion: is it as good as intellisense?
[12:40] <jdong> intellisense is godly
[12:40] <jdong> microsoft has full rights to that name, IMO :)
[12:40] <Keybuk> wasn't that the silly thing where if you pressed Enter twice, it'd think you wanted a title?
[12:40] <jdong> Keybuk: that's autoformat
[12:40] <Keybuk> which was Intellidense?
[12:40] <jdong> yeah
[12:40] <TMM> Keybuk: I think the vb monkeys using it
[12:41] <jdong> TMM: have you tried monodevelop?
[12:41] <_ion> jdong: I have no experience with IntelliSense. Can you describe what you mean?
[12:41] <jdong> TMM: its code completion is a clone of intellisense
[12:41] <TMM> jdong: for C code?
[12:41] <jdong> TMM: no, not for C :-/
[12:41] <jdong> C#
[12:41] <jdong> _ion: it's for C/C++, autocomplete
[12:41] <jdong> _ion: very similar to monodevelop caliber
[12:41] <TMM> no, I haven't I don't know all that much C#, I prefer python :)
[12:42] <sladen> Seveas: madness!  but sweet
[12:42] <jdong> it autocompletes both from API's, included headers, your project files, anywhere
[12:42] <jdong> it's very dynamic... will only suggest things that are valid... I've seen kdevelop/anjuta give erroneous suggestions
[12:42] <jdong> and it's robust... a syntax error won't pollute/confuse intellisense
[12:43] <jdong> I'm not sure how it indexes code so dynamically... it runs smoothly even on old computers
[12:43] <jdong> but it reacts instantly to changes in the code
[12:43] <jdong> basically, it's magic
[12:43] <TMM> it is also closed source horse-shit :)
[12:44] <TMM> and, unuseable for my purposes ;)
[12:44] <jdong> I know. we need something as good as it but open source
[12:44] <Keybuk> jdong: oh, QuickBasic had something like that
[12:44] <Keybuk> and if you stopped the program, and selected a variable, its debugger could tell you what the value was
[12:44] <Keybuk> not to mention where in your program it was used, etc.
[12:44] <jdong> Keybuk: yep, intellisense does that too in debugging mode
[12:44] <jdong> and when you start writing a function call, it provides a tooltip with the prototype
[12:45] <jdong> bolding the current part you're working on
[12:45] <jdong> and for overloaded functions, it's smart enough to guess which overload you're trying to use
[12:45] <Keybuk> am still surprised no open source editor does that kind of thing
[12:45] <TMM> tseng: devhelp isn't a whole lot more useful than firefox, in fact, a bit less useful as it doesn't have tabs :)
[12:45] <jdong> the open source clones of it are pretty lame right now
[12:45] <jdong> especially for C/C++
[12:45] <Keybuk> anjuta annoys the hell out of me
[12:45] <jdong> monodevelop does a good job for C#
[12:46] <TMM> so, basically, I am stuck? :)
[12:46] <jdong> TMM: sorry :(
[12:46] <jdong> TMM: it's on all of our wishlists
[12:46] <jdong> :)
[12:46] <tseng> most of us are perfectly content with vi/emacs, I think
[12:46] <tseng> thrilled, even
[12:47] <tseng> you windows weenies should be so lucky
[12:47] <jdong> yes, but that's if you know what you're doing
[12:47] <tseng> :)
[12:47] <jdong> it's definitely not "RAD-friendly"
[12:47] <psusi> hehe
[12:47] <jdong> (another MS term I am crazy over)
[12:47] <jdong> that's about all I really envy from MS products
[12:47] <tseng> I am pretty rapid in vi
[12:48] <jdong> and for something you pay 10000 for, it better be damn good :)
[12:48] <TMM> tseng: I'm not a 'windows weeny' 
[12:48] <Keybuk> tseng: nah, I'm definitely not content with emacs
[12:48] <jdong> tseng: you know what you're doing though
[12:48] <tseng> jdong: (we hope)
[12:48] <jdong> you better!
[12:48] <jdong> lol
[12:48] <TMM> that geany doesn't even look half bad
[12:48] <jdong> I like to be able to open up a random OSS project and start changing it :)
[12:49] <jdong> and for that, I need an intellisense and a fancy GUI designer
[12:51] <Keybuk> jdong: for GNOME stuff, I keep a fully-TAGS'd copy of the GNOME platform and desktop source around
[12:52] <Keybuk> then I can lookup the code of what I'm trying to do
[12:52] <jdong> I need to play around a bit more with this TAGS stuff
[12:52] <jdong> haven't really found the time yet
[12:52] <psusi> tags rules
[12:52] <jdong> I'm sure I can find these tools satifying my intellisense crave
[12:53] <jdong> but it sure requires a bit more effort than having a free copy of VS.NET mailed to me :)
[12:54] <jdong> tseng: does mono/C# support generics?
[12:54] <tseng> jdong: yes of course
[12:54] <tseng> but you need to use gmcs
[12:54] <jdong> gmcs?
[12:54] <tseng> and 2.0 assemblies
[12:54] <tseng> mcs + generics
[12:54] <jdong> oh
[12:54] <jdong> and mono in edgy supports .net 2.0?
[12:55] <tseng> yes
[12:55] <jdong> cool
[12:55] <jdong> dapper?
[12:55] <tseng> yes
[12:55] <jdong> cool
[12:55] <Keybuk> jdong: MSDN?
[12:55] <jdong> Keybuk: nope, employer
[12:55] <jdong> Keybuk: we have this stupid embedded toolchain that requires the fanciest edition of VS.NET 
[12:55] <jdong> tseng: did you hear me whining earlier about xsp being uninstallable in edgy?
[12:56] <tseng> yes, I did
[12:56] <tseng> I would rather never see that package again
[12:56] <tseng> patches accepted, bugs at least
[12:56] <jdong> tseng: is edgy gonna support xsp/asp.net then?
[12:57] <tseng> that sounds like a loaded question
[12:57] <jdong> loaded question?
[12:57] <_ion> jdong: http://vissale.neang.free.fr/Vim/OmniCppComplete/ScreenShots/screenshots.htm
[12:57] <jdong> from what I understand, that's xsp's job?
[12:58] <tseng>   mono-xsp-base: Depends: mono-classlib-1.0 (< 1.1.14) but 1.1.16.1-0ubuntu3 is to be installed
[12:58] <tseng> ^ some jerk in debian adding a hard depend
[12:58] <jdong> tseng: if we take it out it'll be good? :)
[12:58] <tseng> I don't know
[12:58] <tseng> the least you could do is file a bug
[12:58] <jdong> _ion: looks very nice... just have to learn how it works
[12:58] <jdong> tseng: sorry, I'll file a bug...
[12:58] <tseng> instead of hoping I happen to see whining on irc
[12:59] <TMM> doesn't wining on irc get code written then? :)
[12:59] <tseng> not by me
[12:59] <jdong> tseng: bug 55433
[12:59] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55433 in xsp "Please port to Mono 1.1.16" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/55433
[01:00] <jdong> already filed a month back
[01:00] <tseng> thanks.
[01:00] <tseng> I'll rename it to soemthing actually usefull
[01:00] <jdong> k, awesome
[01:01] <jdong> thanks, tseng
[01:01] <Keybuk> the thing I always miss from old editors is the Borland "block copy" function
[01:01] <Keybuk> where you copied/pasted a square block rather than a number of lines
[01:02] <Keybuk> so you can cut a block of code, and paste it at a different indention level
[01:02] <_ion> Vim has it. :-)
[01:02] <Keybuk> vim annoys me in myriad other ways
[01:03] <Keybuk> mostly it just lacks the most basic developer features
[01:05] <jdong> oh btw, Keybuk, I'm quite surprised at how well upstart replaced sysvinit
[01:05] <jdong> and is the console supposed to be ready to log in 2 seconds into bootup?
[01:06] <_ion> keybuk: Worksforme. :-)
[01:07] <Keybuk> jdong: "surprised"? :p
[01:07] <jdong> Keybuk: I've had bad luck with init replacements in the past ;)
[01:07] <jdong> very bad luck ;)
[01:07] <Keybuk> :)
[01:07] <jdong> and don't give me this magic of ubuntu crap :)
[01:07] <jdong> if you do, I'll give you a hoary CD and the job of setting up a md RAID
[01:08] <TMM> yeah, ubuntu sucks! it doesn't have emerge!
[01:08] <TMM> o wait, this isn't #gentoo-dev, now is it?
[01:08] <jdong> TMM: my hoary used to
[01:08] <Keybuk> jdong: md RAID probably won't work on edgy either
[01:08] <jdong> :)
[01:08] <jdong> heh, what's broken this time around?
[01:09] <TMM> jdong: emerge? for hoary? there's a ports ... ehh... port to debian?
[01:09] <jdong> TMM: I had some free time
[01:09] <jdong> TMM: transplanted portage from a stage3 tarball
[01:09] <TMM> jdong: you are a sick, sick man, someone ever told you that? :)
[01:09] <jdong> :)
[01:09] <jdong> hoary is when I migrated back from gentoo
[01:10] <jdong> so it was hard to part from emerge....
[01:10] <jdong> universe was pretty stale back in hoary's days, too
[01:10] <TMM> jdong: otoh I'm writing a freely configurable lexer/parser, I've heard that that is considered quite insane as well :)
[01:11] <jdong> TMM: I haven't told you about the time I tried to stress reiser4 by placing an entire system under bzr version control, right?
[01:11] <TMM> jdong: you win, I'm a sane person, you need to be institutionalised
[01:12] <jdong> :)
[01:12] <TMM> jdong: also, how did it go? :)
[01:12] <jdong> TMM: surprisingly well, actually
[01:12] <jdong> reiser4 rocked at it
[01:12] <TMM> as in 'no crash, all good'? 
[01:12] <jdong> bzr's ram usage was not impressive at the time
[01:12] <jdong> but it's improved since then
[01:12] <jdong> I would've kept reiser4 around had I the time to maintain my own kernel
[01:13] <TMM> I though when I was upgrading to edgy 'might as well go to reiser4 as well' but, I didn't dare to
[01:13] <jdong> but edgy's kernel is just too good for me to turn down
[01:13] <TMM> edgy's got reiser4, doesn't it?
[01:13] <jdong> no
[01:13] <jdong> reiser4 patches don't play well with other patches
[01:13] <TMM> meh
[01:13] <jdong> you gotta have a pretty vanilla kernel
[01:13] <jdong> else you run into strange corruption issues
[01:13] <TMM> lazy kernel team
[01:13] <TMM> :)
[01:13] <jdong> lol
[01:14] <jdong> I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with reiser4 patches
[01:14] <TMM> I merged xen patches with the ubuntu breezy patchset in under 4 days
[01:14] <jdong> that's xen
[01:14] <jdong> it was meant to be merged with a kernel :)
[01:14] <TMM> trust me, not all the ubuntu patches enjoy the xen patchset :)
[01:14] <jdong> TMM: they'll enjoy it much more than reiser4
[01:15] <TMM> lol
[01:15] <TMM> I believe you :)
[01:15] <jdong> where nowadays it patches cleanly but just doesn't work well :)
[01:15] <jdong> that hurts
[01:15] <TMM> reiser4? or xen?
[01:15] <jdong> reiser4
[01:15] <TMM> is mister hans reiser doing anything about it?
[01:15] <jdong> not really
[01:16] <TMM> so, we might not actually get any of the reiser4 goodness, ever?
[01:16] <jdong> TMM: the whole reiser4 in mainline thing looks depressing to me
[01:16] <jdong> which is just too bad :-/
[01:16] <jdong> reiser4 is good technology
[01:16] <TMM> yeah, I've read some of the conversations between linus and hans
[01:16] <jdong> and, except when you patch it wrong, reiser4 is rock solid
[01:17] <jdong> it's currently the only atomic fs in linux
[01:17] <TMM> probably two of the most talented programmers in the world, duking it out on the interweb, pretty interesting, also, both, pretty damn subborn
[01:18] <TMM> I wish linus would just get over himself and bloody well rip out the linux vfs subsystem and replace it with reiser4 :)
[01:18] <tseng> does switching vts cause rainbow patterns for anyone else?
[01:18] <Keybuk> TMM: Please. God. No.
[01:19] <TMM> Keybuk: I'm kind of fond of the idea of a vfs subsystem-with-plugins-in actually
[01:19] <tseng> TMM: its actually alot more funny when bluefoxicy dukes it out with linus
[01:19] <jdong> tseng: yes, usplash has broken my consoles too
[01:19] <Keybuk> one's filesystem should behave predictably
[01:19] <Keybuk> otherwise a poor application author can't even guarantee that when they close() it's on the damned disk
[01:19] <jdong> tseng: take off splash, and it should be happier
[01:19] <TMM> Keybuk: you don't HAVE to use a reiser4 on-disk format with reiser4 as a vgs
[01:19] <TMM> Keybuk: vfs
[01:20] <TMM> tseng: what is his real name?
[01:20] <Keybuk> John Richard Moser
[01:21] <Fujitsu> Ah!
[01:21] <tseng> you can tell the fun threads because they end with a post from me saying "John, Please put down your bong"
[01:22] <Keybuk> tseng: but he's soooo cuuuuute
[01:22] <TMM> tseng: reading :)
[01:22] <TMM> tseng: a weapon of mass distraction :)
[01:23] <jdong> does beagle use up a considerable amount of space indexing?
[01:23] <Fujitsu> jdong, yes.
[01:23] <jdong> I got a ~src directory with like 3GB of random source code...
[01:24] <Fujitsu> I hope you mean ~/src
[01:24] <jdong> yeah
[01:24] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[01:24] <jdong> I blame the keyboard
[01:24] <Fujitsu> I was hoping I wasn't going to have to indict you for a breach of the FHS :P
[01:25] <Keybuk> why is that a breach?
[01:25] <TMM> ~/src is not a part of the FHS... now is it? :)
[01:25] <Keybuk> the FHS doesn't specify what you put in /etc/passwd
[01:25] <TMM> or are we all supposed to go and do a ~/.local/src or something? :)
[01:25] <Fujitsu> No, but aren't you meant to only have user home directories in /home?
[01:25] <Keybuk> Fujitsu: no
[01:25] <Fujitsu> Hm...
[01:25] <Fujitsu> Oops.
[01:25] <TMM> Fujitsu: you can just have an 'src' user
[01:26] <Fujitsu> TMM, you could, but not in that context.
[01:26] <Keybuk> TMM: I _really_ do not get ~/.local
[01:26] <Keybuk> ~/. implies "user config" to me, already
[01:26] <TMM> Fujitsu: err... create a user, become root, and type 'cd ~<my new username>'
[01:27] <TMM> Keybuk: well, I can see why that is useful, I'd like to see something to the effect of ~/.local/etc actually.... all those .config files/dirs in a homedir are pretty sucky imho
[01:27] <Keybuk> why are they sucky?
[01:27] <TMM> Keybuk: I don't like having a ~/bin dir either, I use ~/.local/bin
[01:27] <Fujitsu> TMM: Yes, but it would be silly to have a src user for that sort of thing.
[01:27] <TMM> Keybuk: because there are so many of them
[01:27] <Keybuk> TMM: moving them into another directory won't change that?
[01:27] <TMM> Fujitsu: perhaps some anal security thing? :)
[01:28] <Keybuk> ls -d .* | wc -l
[01:28] <Keybuk> 831
[01:28] <Keybuk> ls ~/.local/etc | wc -l
[01:28] <Keybuk> 831
[01:28] <Keybuk> *shrug*
[01:28] <TMM> Keybuk: no, because they won't be  right in ~/
[01:28] <Keybuk> why aren't they right?
[01:28] <Keybuk> they've been there for 40 years
[01:28] <TMM> Keybuk: it would be a bit cleaner imho, also, ~/.local/etc they won't all have to start with a dot :)
[01:28] <Keybuk> why does that matter?
[01:28] <Fujitsu> Now, that's not an entirely good attitude, Keybuk.
[01:28] <Fujitsu> Just because they are there, doesn't mean it's right.
[01:28] <TMM> Keybuk: which would make discovery of the settings for average users a bit easyer
[01:29] <Keybuk> Fujitsu: right, but nobody's managed to tell me why they're wrong either
[01:29] <Fujitsu> Although in this case the 40-year-old standard is right.
[01:29] <TMM> Keybuk: I was working on that
[01:29] <Keybuk> TMM: by hiding them even further inside the filesystem?
[01:29] <Keybuk> how is ~/.local/etc more discoverable than just ~/.* ?
[01:29] <TMM> Keybuk: there would be only one place to point your nautilus 
[01:29] <Keybuk> there's only one place now
[01:29] <Fujitsu> There is already, TMM.
[01:29] <Fujitsu> !
[01:29] <Fujitsu> *!
[01:29] <Fujitsu> **~
[01:29] <TMM> then they are mixed with 'ordinary' files
[01:30] <_ion> I think there's a freedesktop.org spec about using ~/.config/programname/ (not ~/.local/etc).
[01:30] <TMM> I'd prefer a ~/.local structure
[01:30] <Keybuk> why not just ~/etc ?
[01:30] <TMM> so, software installed in the homedir of a user gets to go in ~/.local/bin and the configs in ~/.local/etc 
[01:31] <TMM> Keybuk: that would be fine as well, but, I think ~/.local would be less pollution :)
[01:31] <_ion> http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/ar01s03.html
[01:31] <Keybuk> in fact, we could probably expand the names to be more obvious too
[01:31] <Keybuk> /Documents and Settings/Scott James Remnant/Application Data/...
[01:31] <Keybuk> maybe
[01:31] <TMM> that isn't even that bad
[01:31] <TMM> but, 'documents AND settings' are confusing
[01:32] <TMM> ~/Documents and ~/Settings would be quite good
[01:32] <Keybuk> ah
[01:32] <Keybuk> so maybe I need a /home/scott and a /etc/scott ? :)
[01:32] <Keybuk> my stuff in one, config stuff in the other?
[01:32] <TMM> no, I fully agree with the /home stuff :)
[01:32] <Keybuk> you just disagreed with it :p
[01:32] <TMM> note the '~' at the beginning of my suggestion
[01:32] <Keybuk> /home = /Documents and Settings
[01:33] <Keybuk> it's used for both currently
[01:33] <TMM> no, /home/<username> is the 'root' of the user's system
[01:33] <Keybuk> you proposed splitting those
[01:33] <desrt> /home/.everything really is evil.
[01:33] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  yes but when I duke it out with Linus it's on topics he admits he has no understanding of
[01:33] <_ion> Let's just migrate all software to elektra. ;-)
[01:33] <Keybuk> desrt: why is it evil?
[01:33] <desrt> apple's /home/you/Library/ setup is a lot nicer
[01:33] <desrt> Keybuk; i hate having a million .*'s in my ~
[01:33] <TMM> yes, but, ~/ should be the root of the users system :)
[01:33] <bluefoxicy> when Taenbaum does it Linus swears he knows more about it
[01:33] <desrt> it's seriously a pain in the ass
[01:33] <Keybuk> desrt: why?
[01:34] <desrt> Keybuk; because i can't see then and they don't glob when i say *
[01:34] <desrt> they're these files that aren't really files
[01:34] <Keybuk> TMM: maybe a user's ~ shouldn't be writable by them?  but include common sub-directories like Desktop, Documents, Settings, etc?
[01:34] <desrt> like just now, in preparation to install edgy i did
[01:34] <Keybuk> desrt: *shrug* that's a fault of your shell's globbing, no?
[01:34] <desrt> ~$ mkdir old
[01:34] <desrt> ~$ mv * old
[01:35] <desrt> which of course failed to work
[01:35] <Keybuk> if you moved them to ~/.local they'd still be a hidden directory, so still be evil by your definition
[01:35] <TMM> Keybuk: no, I do not thing that a user should be forced into anything, but, I think a structure that makes more sense would be good
[01:35] <desrt> Keybuk; well, what about Library/?
[01:35] <TMM> Keybuk: I agreed on your ~/Settings idea!!
[01:35] <Keybuk> desrt: Library implies .so files to me
[01:35] <desrt> ya.  it's a bad name
[01:35] <desrt> good approximate idea, though
[01:35] <TMM> desrt: I have to agree with Keybuk here
[01:35] <Keybuk> ~/Settings would be nice
[01:35] <desrt> ya.  Settings is just fine by me
[01:35] <_ion> Either small letters or a case-insensitive filesystem, please. :-)
[01:35] <desrt> just a rose by another name, imo :p
[01:36] <desrt> _ion; how do you feel about ~/Desktop and ~/Documents?
[01:36] <Keybuk> ~/etc ? :p
[01:36] <TMM> perhaps ~/Programs as well, but I think I'd prefer that to be hidden, to make it less likely that people will poke at it
[01:36] <Keybuk> my vague problem with /Useful Name/On/The Filesystem is that it's not translatable
[01:36] <_ion> desrt: "documents" is fine, but desktop should .desktop (i.e. hidden).
[01:36] <desrt> the website needs a note on "alternate install CD" and says "use this if you are unsure"
[01:36] <TMM> Keybuk: well, with a reiser4 based vfs, we could have a plugin that does the translation at the kernel level ;)
[01:36] <desrt> _ion; i definitely disagree with that
[01:37] <Keybuk> TMM: even to the poor applications?
[01:37] <desrt> oh WTF
[01:37] <Keybuk> how would they know what directory name to use?
[01:37] <desrt> knot2 won't fit on a CD anymore?
[01:37] <TMM> Keybuk: well ~/Documents would work as well as ~/Documenten
[01:37] <Keybuk> TMM: what if you wanted both?
[01:37] <desrt> Please replace the disc in the drive with a supported disc with at least 670 MB free.  The following disc types are supported:
[01:37] <desrt> CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+R DL, DVD+RW
[01:37] <desrt> ^^ burning knot2 to a blank CD
[01:37] <Keybuk> desrt: ubuntu hasn't fitted on a 640MB CD for a long time!
[01:37] <Fujitsu> desrt, sure it's a 700MB CD?
[01:37] <desrt> ugggh
[01:38] <desrt> this is mad
[01:38] <webben> Why is Ubuntu's emacspeak package so ancient?
[01:38] <Fujitsu> ?
[01:38] <_ion> keybuk: I've heard MacOSX translates them on-the-fly. The directory tree is always in English, but the user sees them based on the locale settings.
[01:38] <TMM> Keybuk: simple hashtable with the different names assosciated with a dir, and default the names to C, translate at the vfs level :) bluefoxicy it is your job to get that idea pas linus! :P
[01:38] <webben> It's stuck at version 17.0 from 2002. contrast: http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/
[01:39] <TMM> probably best to mark the dentries immutable though :)
[01:40] <bluefoxicy> TMM:  hah, he hates me :)
[01:40] <bluefoxicy> later
[01:40] <bluefoxicy> TMM:  you want to talk to me about something random, try file systems.  :P
[01:40] <TMM> bluefoxicy: he does?
[01:40] <TMM> bluefoxicy: bye!
[01:40] <TMM> bluefoxicy: ow, I've had this idea about a scattered filesystem! :)
[01:41] <desrt> well
[01:41] <TMM> bluefoxicy: basically, dump writes to the nearest emty place on the platter where the head happens to be, organise later
[01:41] <desrt> it appears to have worked
[01:43] <TMM> desrt: you say it 'appears' to be working :)
[01:43] <desrt> well
[01:43] <desrt> it burned without error
[01:43] <desrt> doesn't mean it'll install properly :)
[01:43] <TMM> overburned an ubuntu disk?
[01:44] <desrt> ya
[01:45] <TMM> well, if it burned correctly, and you are real careful with the disk, it'll probably work once or twice :)
[01:45] <TMM> dump it back to disk with dd to be sure :)
[01:45] <desrt> i'll just install it :p
[01:46] <TMM> I hope you've got another box :)
[01:46] <TMM> generally, it should work, if the cdr wasn't dirt cheap
[01:46] <desrt> it's decent brandname.  i think it'll work.
[01:47] <TMM> good luck
[01:47] <TMM> btw, I've upgraded this install from dapper to edgy, and I don't think I'm missing any features
[01:49] <TMM> desrt: gets old fast, when I discover that package I apt-get installed half a year back, I actually use a bit more often than I thought :)
[01:50] <desrt> eh.  this isn't gentoo
[01:50] <desrt> installing a package takes 12 seconds
[01:51] <desrt> unless you're unfortunate enough to be on the go at the time you realise it's gone missing :)
[01:51] <TMM> desrt: not without interweb it doesn't
[01:51] <TMM> and main
[01:51] <TMM> how large is universe and main combined these days anyway? :)
[01:51] <desrt> like 50%?
[01:53] <desrt> (ie: the union of ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu/edubuntu desktops)
[01:55] <TMM> 'a config file can contain lines, and sections, a section can contain sections, lines and comments, a line can contain a comment and/or a key'
[01:55] <TMM> 'a key can contain a value, a list of values or nothing'
[01:55] <TMM> does that sound about right, describing, well, all config files? :)
[01:56] <TMM> I'm missing something, I just can't quite put my finger on it
[02:01] <tseng> desrt: there is alot more in main than -desktop
[02:01] <tseng> LAMP is a good one
[02:04] <TMM> anyone care to thing about my question please? :) pretty please? with sugar on top? :)
[02:04] <TMM> I'm kind of all thought out on the subject, and, I've looked at one or two too many config files I think :)
[02:05] <sladen> TMM: if you want an answer you a question, you have to actually ask it
[02:05] <TMM> it WAS a question, just not on one line
[02:05] <TMM> well, I thought it was a question anyway
[02:06] <sladen> TMM: you may need to simply/repeat it.  Would was the quesition we missed?
[02:06] <TMM> ok, I'll try again
[02:08] <omnid> hi
[02:08] <TMM> Does "a config file can contain lines of text and sections of lines of text." "A section of lines of text can contain : Sections of lines of text and lines of text", "A line of text can contain a comment and/or a key"  "a key can contain a value or a bunch of values" sum up how the vast majority of configuration files can be described, structure wise
[02:09] <TMM> ?
[02:09] <TMM> note the question mark :) 
[02:09] <sladen> TMM: I see no question mark in that sentence.
[02:09] <TMM> it was appended :P
[02:09] <sladen> TMM: :)
[02:09] <omnid> A configuration file that contains sections of text lines for setting up.
[02:10] <TMM> omnid: 'for setting up' ?
[02:10] <omnid> Is text of line setup key sections of lines.
[02:10] <omnid> Words.
[02:10] <sladen> TMM: it's a reasonable description
[02:10] <TMM> sladen: I'm not looking for 'reasonable' I'm looking for watertight :)
[02:11] <_ion> Well, a configuration file can be even a script, as is the case with the ion window manager. :-)
[02:12] <TMM> _ion: in that case: no libnofconf loving for the ion window manager ;)
[02:12] <TMM> _ion: also, wtf is 'the ion window manager'? I have a hunch that you might now :P
[02:13] <_ion> apt-cache show ion3
[02:15] <sladen> TMM: "A non-executable configuration file contains declarations that can be parsed by a computer program to perform setting of variables during initialisation.  Sections of the configuration file may exist that do not get processed, such as comments, header information, or declarations not relating to the particular program under scrutiny.  An example of a declaration could be 'x=10' by may be interpreted by a hypothetical as setting the value of a 
[02:15] <TMM> _ion: I just found your website :) I dont think it'll be very funny to use the gimp with ion :)
[02:15] <xt> sladen: not exactly right
[02:16] <_ion> sladen: Seems like your IRC client doesn't split long lines.
[02:16] <xt> amavisd-new's configuration file is perl code
[02:16] <TMM> sladen: where did you paste that from? ;)
[02:16] <xt> which means, it can be executed
[02:16] <sladen> TMM: my keyboard.
[02:16] <TMM> sladen: I was just teasing you ;)
[02:16] <_ion> tmm: It's no problem at all. One just needs to create a "float" (as in not tiled) workspace for running gimp.
[02:17] <sladen> TMM: perhaps you can combine that, your own and the improvements that xt would like to make into something more suitable
[02:17] <TMM> sladen: I only got it up to "hypothetical as setting the value of a"
[02:18] <sladen> TMM: An example of a declaration could be 'x=10' which may be interpreted by a hypothetical program as setting the value of a variable named 'x' to be the value decimal ten.
[02:19] <TMM> sladen: thank you for that
[02:19] <TMM> sladen: although, I wasn't looking for a scientificially correct definition of 'config file' but, more a technical description that would fit a generic parser tree for most config files :)
[02:22] <TMM> _ion: I must say, I really like your website's layout
[02:26] <_ion> I didn't know it has one. :-)
[02:29] <TMM> _ion: it has the bare minimum :) and, still manages to pull off a 'designed' look, I love it
[02:30] <TMM> _ion: http://www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/intro.html <--- that page is just sheer brilliance imho, it could use one rounded corner for the rightmost block, but, other than that, brilliance! :)
[02:31] <_ion> That's not my website.
[02:31] <TMM> _ion: it isn't? 
[02:31] <tseng> TMM: ion is a window manager..
[02:32] <tseng> for years
[02:32] <TMM> I thought _ion did it... 
[02:32] <TMM> because of the name, and all
[02:32] <TMM> well, in that case, allow me to stfu and try and make myself look like less of a dumbass
[02:32] <_ion> Well, i chose my nick years before the ion wm existed. :-)
[02:32] <tseng> ion is a series of three leters
[02:33] <TMM> tseng: _ion brought it up... so, well, I assumed...
[02:34] <TMM> that is probably why 'assume' starts with 'ass'
[02:34] <TMM> sladen: do you have any suggestions if you look at my question in that light?
[02:37] <madduck> 03 01:08 < Keybuk> jdong: md RAID probably won't work on edgy either
[02:37] <madduck> i won't let this stand, Scott. :)
[02:37] <madduck> but now is sleep time.
[02:38] <bddebian> doko_: Are you actually around by any chance?
[02:38] <madduck> dude, it's almost 3am here...
[02:39] <bddebian> Yeah, and you're here aren't you? ;-P
[02:39] <TMM> 2:38 am actually :)
[02:39] <madduck> TMM: pedant. :)
[02:39] <madduck> bddebian: i am not.
[02:39] <TMM> madduck: ha! you should see my CFLAGS ;)
[02:39] <madduck> mine beat that anytime, TMM :)
[02:40] <TMM> madduck: well, if you put it like that, I am inclined to belive you :P
[02:40] <madduck> oh, come on!
[02:40] <madduck> i just had a caipirinha too many, that's all. :)
[02:41] <TMM> I'm just tired and getting nowhere :)
[02:42] <madduck> try reducing your CFLAGS and work upwards from there? :)
[02:49] <TMM> madduck: the problem isn't the code, but the concept :)
[02:52] <lexual> hi, I need to file a bug report for edgy knot 2 installer, I just need to know what package to file it for.
[02:52] <lexual> The bug is when the installer gets to gparted.
[02:52] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[02:52] <Fujitsu> ubiquity.
[03:10] <sladen> TMM: not sure, sorry.  Perhaps yours is a better start if that's what you need
[03:11] <sladen> TMM: there's going to be parts of the file that need processing and parts which need ignoring (for whatever reasons)
[03:35] <desrt> TMM; fwiw, all sorts of stuff that didn't use to work now works
[03:59] <o_cee> is it just me, or is libcurl3-openssl-dev broken? can't install it..
[03:59] <crimsun> (FWIW, installs fine in edgy)
[04:00] <o_cee> mine complains about libkrb5-dev..
[04:01] <crimsun> are you on dapper or edgy?
[04:01] <o_cee> edgy
[04:04] <o_cee> libkrb5-dev: Depends: libkrb53 (= 1.4.3-5) but 1.4.3-5ubuntu0.1 will be installed (translated from swedish..)
[04:07] <crimsun> apt-cache policy libkrb53
[04:10] <o_cee> http://pastebin.ca/159411
[04:11] <crimsun> o_cee: remove the local package of libkrb53 you have.
[04:15] <o_cee> crimsun: hrm, that would remove a lot of other packages.. 
[04:17] <crimsun> dpkg -P --force-depends libkrb53
[04:17] <crimsun> then, apt-get install libcurl3-openssl-dev
[04:18] <crimsun> your local libkrb53 is preventing libkrb5-dev from being installed
[04:18] <o_cee> thanks, give me a minute. no idea where a local version would be coming from though
[04:21] <o_cee> thanks again, worked :)  any way to check for more of those?
[04:21] <crimsun> look at your sources.list
[04:22] <o_cee> anyone who knows what's happening to vmware-player that was supposed to get new modules?
[04:23] <o_cee> crimsun: looks like it should, only edgy repos
[04:57] <pradeep> uptime[5h 53m 2s] 
[04:57] <pradeep> ^^ sorry
[05:06] <robertj> Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes.
[05:07] <jono> robertj, :P
[05:09] <mjg59> robertj: You're so a fortnight ago
[05:11] <robertj> mjg59: your not gonna ruin my evening. No-sir-ree. I've just got done adding another exciting feature to my time-sink hobby project!
[05:11] <mjg59> Haha
[05:12] <robertj> People have been writing graphical user interfaces to text-based programs, but I'm one of the few & proud to provide a text-based interface to a first-person shooter!
[05:12] <mjg59> robertj: Somebody did an IF Doom in 1998
[05:13] <robertj> mjg59: this is line-level compatible with a shooter people still play though!
[05:14] <robertj> hda to cheat a bit there. It wraps the network protocol stuff w/ SWIG, but the rest is in python :}
[05:15] <mjg59> Nifty
[05:15] <robertj> but after a month of python, I'm sold on it
[05:24] <PenguinOfDoom> Will Edgy blow up in my face if I try to use it?
[05:24] <robertj> PenguinOfDoom: perhaps, might want to ask in #ubuntu+1 as well
[05:53] <hikenboot> hello all...I am remastering the ubuntu live cd...interesting enough when I boot the new live cd it gives me the choice to install it onto the hard drive or install a lamp server but not boot from the live cd...any ideas why this might be happening?
[05:54] <welshbyte> hikenboot: sounds like you're using the alternate install CD instead of the live CD
[05:55] <hikenboot> you got to be kidding ..what a moron I am all that work ...d*mn
[06:01] <hikenboot> welshbyte, are most of the packages the same in both versions of the disk?
[06:03] <welshbyte> hikenboot: i'm afraid i'll have to defer that question to someone who knows more about it than i do :)
[06:03] <Fujitsu> hikenboot, the same versions.
[06:03] <Fujitsu> Sounds like you have the server CD, though, so it'll be missing most of the stuff the alternate and desktop CDs have.
[06:04] <hikenboot> not good it took me about 6 hours to pull all the "unncessessary" packages off the cd 
[06:04] <hikenboot> so I could add my own
[10:28] <sivang> morning
[10:29] <Fujitsu> Evening!
[10:29] <Burgundavia> morning sivang
[10:30] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: ping
[10:30] <Burgundavia> morning mvo
[10:30] <mvo> good morning Burgundavia!
[10:30] <Fujitsu> Good evening, mvo.
[10:30] <Hobbsee> hey sivang, Fujitsu, mvo, Burgundavia 
[10:30] <Burgundavia> hey Hobbsee
[10:30] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: tell me about new and funky Kubuntu stuff last week
[10:31] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: no :P
[10:31] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: hmm, no UWN love for you then
[10:31] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: um.  i dont know of much myself, actually
[10:31] <Burgundavia> right
[10:31] <Hobbsee> that i remember about, anyway
[10:32] <Fujitsu> It is down really really frequently these past 3 or 4 weeks.
[10:32] <Burgundavia> hmm, who did upstarts logo again?
[10:32] <Fujitsu> It has a logo?
[10:32] <Burgundavia> every Saturday night since LWE
[10:32] <Burgundavia> most frustrating, as Sat. night is when we write and release UWN
[10:35] <Fujitsu> LWE?
[10:35] <Burgundavia> Linux World Expo
[10:35] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[10:36] <Fujitsu> It's not exactly acceptable... It is the ultimate resource, and any new people are going to get a bad impression when the primary help resource is down for several hours quite regularly.
[10:37] <Burgundavia> yep
[10:37] <Fujitsu> The checkboxes are around the wrong way.
[10:37] <Burgundavia> I understand there have been some systematic issues in the DC
[10:37] <Burgundavia> Fujitsu: glatzor did most of the UI, but some bits are mvo
[10:37] <Fujitsu> Shouldn't it go main, restricted, universe, muiltiverse, not universe, main, multiverse, restricted?
[10:38] <Fujitsu> Otherwise it's a really great piece of work :D
[10:39] <HiddenWolf> Fujitsu: I guess you just found a bug. :)
[10:40] <Fujitsu> Is archive.ubuntu.com down as well!?
[10:40] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[10:40] <Fujitsu> Just being very very laggy.
[10:55] <Burgundavia> hunger: ouch
[10:56] <Fujitsu> It'd be nice if somebody added upstart as an alternative to sysvinit in ubuntu-minimal...
[10:57] <Burgundavia> get keybuk todo it
[10:57] <HiddenWolf> That needs a main inclusion first, and a code review or two
[10:57] <HiddenWolf> so that might take a bit
[10:57] <Fujitsu> Or can't it Replace sysvinit, without main inclusion?
[11:11] <madduck> w3m: Can't load https://wiki.ubuntu.com/.
[11:11] <madduck> is this a known problem?
[11:11] <Fujitsu> Yes.
[11:11] <madduck> ok. thanks.
[11:11] <Fujitsu> The wiki is down.
[11:11] <Fujitsu> As is normal for this time weekly, it would appear.
[11:18] <lifeless> any europeans around ?
[11:18] <madduck> does .ch count? :)
[11:18] <lifeless> someone needs to rng a sysadmin
[11:18] <madduck> rng?
[11:19] <lifeless> and international is not as cheap as irc:)
[11:19] <lifeless> ring
[11:19] <lifeless> phone 
[11:19] <lifeless> page
[11:19] <lifeless> alert
[11:19] <giftnudel> if you do anything bad, I won't tell you that i'm european
[11:19] <madduck> well, gimme phone number...
[11:19] <lifeless> mmm, i dont know the privacy status of their numbers, sorry
[11:19] <madduck> whom to call? elmo?
[11:19] <madduck> and is this really an exceptional state?
[11:19] <lifeless> help.ubuntu.com is down
[11:20] <lifeless> and wiki.ubuntu.com
[11:20] <Hobbsee> it's not usually a good idea to give out other people's numbers
[11:20] <lifeless> Hobbsee: well duh ;)
[11:20] <Hobbsee> you could call someone like Riddell, but i doubt he could help
[11:20] <mdke> I've reported it
[11:20] <lifeless> mdke: IRC is not a report
[11:20] <madduck> i have elmo's number
[11:20] <Hobbsee> his numbers/address/etc seem to be in his email signature :P
[11:21] <mdke> lifeless: why do you say IRC?
[11:21] <mdke> I filed an RT report
[11:21] <lifeless> mdke: ok, cool. 
[11:21] <lifeless> mdke: but we still have an escalation procedure
[11:21] <madduck> then they'll know. better not call...
[11:21] <mdke> ah good. I thought that someone would be scheduled to work on sunday
[11:22] <mdke> last week when the same thing happened Spads dealt with it quickly
[11:22] <madduck> request tracker
[11:22] <Hobbsee> ah
[11:23] <StevenK> Hobbsee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_Tracker
[11:23] <Hobbsee> StevenK: do my physics assignment, as you're clearly smart.  kthnksbye!
[11:34] <Seveas> sladen, ? 
[12:31] <Riddell> infinity: need a european?
[02:57] <finalbeta> Does ubuntu have an alsa dev channel?
[03:06] <sivang> crimsun: ping
[03:07] <sivang> crimsun: if you did the patch against the ubntu devel lp team branch, please know that I'm working on a next major version branch linked from the wiki specification page
[03:07] <sivang> crimsun: thanks for the fix though :-)
[03:13] <mempf-edgy> why has there been little no no updates the past couple on days?
[03:14] <Hobbsee> mempf-edgy: because it's a weekend
[03:14] <mempf-edgy> lol
[03:15] <mempf-edgy> im looking forward to next kernel update
[03:15] <mempf-edgy> as according to launchpad my card readers should start working again
[03:28] <kmon_> Hobbsee: I've opened a bug report on the kernel on knot cd1. Ben collins said the fix was on the next kernel update, but after trying knot cd 2 the issue remains. Should I change the status of the bug (it's fixed released right now) or wait to see what ben says? I'm afraid that since the bug is marked as fixed maybe the new comments aren't noticed
[03:38] <phanatic> kmon_: you don't need to be afraid imho
[03:39] <Hobbsee> kmon_: they are noticed.  probably reply back that the fix didnt work, and set it back to confirmed, or whatever it was
[03:39] <kmon_> ok, Hobbsee thanks
[07:20] <zyga> re
[09:24] <Burgundavia> Riddell: ping
[09:24] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: ping
[09:30] <zul> heylo
[09:30] <Burgundavia> hey zul
[09:30] <Burgundavia> any news on the Xen front this week?
[09:31] <zul> im working on the nvidia stuff and adding drivers to the xen tree
[09:32] <zul> other than that no :)
[09:32] <zul> it doesnt help that my laptop also died
[09:35] <Burgundavia> that sucks. So nothing released this week?
[09:37] <zul> bug fix was uploaded on friday
[09:43] <zyga> zul: what's happened to the laptop?
[09:47] <zul> hard drive died
[10:01] <zyga> zul: the mechanical stuff or the electrical?
[10:02] <zul> mechanical i think
[11:42] <Burgundavia> doko: ping
[11:43] <doko> what's up?
[11:52] <ne78> I see that edgy has mesa cvs 20060817, does the edgy xserver-xorg includes the AIGLX compositing patches to make compiz works ?
[11:53] <Burgundavia> ne78: yes
[11:53] <Burgundavia> edgy includes upstream xorg 7.1, which includes aiglx
[11:53] <ne78> Burgundavia: those patch are taken from the rpm and not yet it the git xorg tree, am i right ?
[11:54] <Burgundavia> afaik, not being an X developer, aiglx is fully merged
[11:55] <mjg59> compiz works fine with the code in edgy
[11:55] <mjr> I also have the impression that aiglx is merged in the main xorg tree
[11:56] <ne78> mjr: yes but it miss some redhat specific patches to add aiglx Composite fix
[11:56] <mjr> ah
[11:56] <mjg59> Not really, no
[11:57] <ne78> mjg59: why doesn't xserver-xorg from debian (now 7.1) works with compiz
[11:58] <mjg59> Without knowing how it fails, I have no idea
[11:58] <mjg59> But there's no further code /needed/
[12:00] <ne78> mjg59: i'm refering to http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2006/08/msg01558.html, it says lus some additional patches by Kristian Hgsberg (patches taken directly from the Fedora source RPM).
[12:01] <ne78> mjg59: i would be happy to learn that those are unnecessary
[12:03] <ne78> ok i found the in the http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/x/xorg-server/xorg-server_1.1.1-0ubuntu9/changelog
[12:05] <ne78> nice, was compiz a target of etch ?
[12:06] <mjg59> We carry a couple of patches from Fedora, but they're not required
[12:07] <mjg59> They fix a crash on vt switching and add support for automatically disabling offscreen pixmaps when necessary