[10:49] <Madpilot> Um, a seperate Ubuntu art forum
[10:49] <Madpilot> ?
[10:52] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: art forum?
[10:52] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, proposed idea on the -art ML
[10:53] <Burgundavia> oh, madness, unless it is part of ubuntuforums
[10:53] <Madpilot> who knows... I didn't point out the Marketing team's experiment w/ seperate forums - you might want to...
[10:55] <Burgundavia> not subscribed to the art list anymore
[10:55] <Burgundavia> too noisy
[12:11] <huwshimi> Hi. Just a quick question. What's the correct protocol for submitting artwork for Edgy?
[12:12] <kwwii> huwshimi: post it on the wiki or send a link in a mail to the list
[12:13] <huwshimi> On this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/?
[12:14] <kwwii> that seems to be the right page
[12:15] <huwshimi> Ok. I might send an email first. Thanks very much kwwii.
[12:16] <kwwii> huwshimi: no problem, glad to be of help :-)
[01:34] <huwshimi> Hi all again. I have just made some artwork that I would like to propose for Egdy Eft, but before I add it to incoming I thought I'd find out what you guys thought. You can check it out here: http://huw.ugbox.net/UbuntuEvolve/
[01:39] <andreasn> huwshimi: dude, that is totally nice work
[01:41] <andreasn> the glassy logo looks a bit weird together with the flat patterns though
[01:47] <huwshimi> Thanks. Yeah I was trying to follow the guidelines on this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Propose/Results
[01:48] <andreasn> hm, is this technically possible now? http://huw.ugbox.net/UbuntuEvolve/screenshot_splash.png
[01:48] <andreasn> anyway, sweet stuff
[01:49] <huwshimi> andreasn: Yes! That's a real screenshot.
[01:49] <andreasn> wow, cool
[01:49] <huwshimi> andreasn: So worth adding to incoming?
[01:49] <andreasn> huwshimi: I have no idea, I mostly idle here
[01:50] <andreasn> huwshimi: I haven't followed the artwork development closeley
[01:50] <andreasn> this release
[01:50] <huwshimi> andreasn: OK, no problems
[02:01] <msikma> Hey everybody
[02:52] <Viper550> Hello everyone...
[03:14] <Viper550> kwwii, still there? I'm concerned about styles
[03:22] <kwwii> man, don't leave 5 minutes after askng a question
[04:58] <troy_s> greetings all.
[04:58] <kwwii> hi troy_s
[04:58] <troy_s> how is it going kwwii?
[05:00] <kwwii> troy_s: pretty good, drawing some icons...how about you?
[05:01] <troy_s> well time is ticking out for me.
[05:01] <troy_s> chat in a few minutes... family beckons.
[05:04] <kwwii> hehe, have fun :-)
[05:10] <msikma> Hi everybody
[05:10] <msikma> Been a while since I've taken a look in here.
[05:11] <kwwii> hi msikma
[05:11] <msikma> I had food poisoning a while back, so I was out for a few days. :(
[05:29] <troy_s> msikma that is NO good
[05:29] <troy_s> food poisoning stinks
[05:29] <msikma> Yeah, it'll take some time before I trust another milkshake.
[05:30] <troy_s> eek
[05:30] <msikma> By the way, I've been doing some experimenting with the GTK like you requested, using those scans you sent me to help figure out a palette.
[05:31] <msikma> I'll still need some more time to finalize it but here's one of those tests: http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/ubuntu-humannew.png
[05:31] <troy_s> Have you figured out how the colours work?
[05:32] <troy_s> I believe the metacity pulls the colours from the GTKrc
[05:32] <troy_s> and divides them etc...
[05:32] <msikma> Yeah, all you need to change around are the hex values in the gtkrc.
[05:33] <msikma> Anyway, talk to you a little later.
[05:34] <troy_s> if you have them mapped
[05:34] <troy_s> msikma
[05:34] <troy_s> could you wiki your findings?
[05:34] <troy_s> i started experimenting last night
[05:34] <troy_s> but couldn't finish
[05:34] <troy_s> basically, if you can use widget factory to draw a 'map'
[05:34] <troy_s> of where each colour lands, i will try to make up a corresponding
[05:34] <msikma> Oh, mainly I just copied all the hex values into a Photoshop document and did the manipulation from there. I haven't figured out which value belongs to which aspect of the design. The "easy way out".
[05:34] <troy_s> gimp palette with names so that people can plug and play
[05:35] <troy_s> well yes...
[05:35] <troy_s> i know ONE value,
[05:35] <troy_s> absolutely
[05:35] <troy_s> the real strange thing is that the window border
[05:35] <troy_s> value shows up in the theme switcher
[05:35] <troy_s> but not when you load the corresponding theme...
[05:35] <troy_s> so i still need to research it a bit.
[05:35] <troy_s> J. Krause's work is quite impressive.
[05:35] <troy_s> Although I suggest you use the RGB values
[05:36] <troy_s> as they come up true to the images
[05:36] <troy_s> the CMYK is obviously targetting print so are a little more bright
[05:38] <troy_s> msikma, you should also note that some of the details are 'attached' in clearlooks so your mock might not be able to meet the xml requirements
[05:38] <troy_s> as in the border shadow will probably colour something else, which means you need to localize them.
[05:40] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation has some good links for references.
[05:40] <troy_s> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkThemes
[05:40] <troy_s> being one of them
[06:55] <Seveas> troy_s, I'm now working on making creating usplash themes easier
[07:28] <msikma> troy_s: how do you mean? That's a live screenshot, not a mock-up.
[07:32] <troy_s> msikma sorry lost
[07:32] <troy_s> seveas great.  can you look at that logout translucent box cairo issue?
[07:32] <Seveas> It's on my todo list
[07:33] <Seveas> but usplash needs a bit more work to be usable
[07:33] <troy_s> did you get any ppc response yet?
[07:33] <troy_s> it would be nice to know exactly what we can design for.
[07:51] <msikma> Hmm, maybe I should try out what you suggested on the mailing list earlier, Troy, concerning usplash
[07:52] <msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/radial_light.gif I made an updated version of what I showed earlier.
[07:52] <msikma> By the way, this is how I think we should do glossy/shiny objects: http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/base.png
[07:57] <BHSPitLappy> nice
[07:58] <troy_s> msikma it would be nice to see it as a spotlight -- just to compare
[07:58] <troy_s> also, for consistency, i would look to the default folder icon, the arrows, etc, for the curve radius on the logo
[07:58] <troy_s> there are a good number of icons that implement the curvature
[07:58] <msikma> Like how you explained on the list, with the radial light being replaced by a gradient blob?
[07:59] <troy_s> we sort of talked about  a 'spotlight' in paris
[07:59] <msikma> I actually never really believed in that kind of curvature, to be honest.
[07:59] <troy_s> msikma -- i agree.  but unfortunately, it is a constraint we need to work within as the icons will not change.
[08:00] <troy_s> anything that butts up against it will simply tear the cohereancy apart.
[08:00] <troy_s> i plan on working on a design spec for ubun2
[08:00] <msikma> I'd rather fix what I believe is a suboptimal type of art element than keep on using it for consistency reasons.
[08:01] <troy_s> it is hard to fix though because the icons wont change
[08:01] <troy_s> as per sabdfl.
[08:01] <troy_s> he is open to changing them if we manage to deliver a full set
[08:01] <troy_s> that he approves of.
[08:01] <troy_s> but until then, i believe our work goes a long way to making the default look more cohesive by buying into it... perhaps making it as good as you can.
[08:01] <msikma> Someday, surely sabdfl will decide to drop the Human icon set after he decides that probably all these artists who disagree with him are more knowledgeable on the subject than he is. But that's a different thing entirely and I hope we won't begin discussing it right now...
[08:02] <BHSPitLappy> so anyone here involved with sound
[08:02] <BHSPitLappy> or mostly the graphical side of things
[08:02] <troy_s> bhsppitlappy right now peter savage has been doing the sound work.
[08:02] <msikma> You know, I could probably make a new icon set but I'm not good at vector. I'd make a proof of concept, but it'd be in raster.
[08:02] <troy_s> i have been actively trying to cultivate the crew.
[08:02] <troy_s> msikma -- sketches are the best place to start
[08:02] <troy_s> because you can change them quickly as per sabdfl's direction
[08:03] <troy_s> but before we start sketching, we need a good design doc with a few singular samples
[08:03] <troy_s> so that the entire set echoes the content and thematic of the doc.
[08:03] <msikma> I wonder if sometimes people are reminding sabdfl that even though this is "his" distro, he surely isn't commissioning a bunch of people to make a distro the way he and only he likes it.
[08:03] <troy_s> bhspitlappy i believe the most recent attempts are at:
[08:03] <troy_s> http://progbox.co.uk/finals in the date folder
[08:03] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy
[08:04] <troy_s> contact frank -- he has taken over coordinating the sounds
[08:04] <BHSPitLappy> I recorded potential login/logout sounds a few minutes ago
[08:04] <BHSPitLappy> prototypes I guess
[08:04] <troy_s> msikma -- ultimately he is the client.
[08:04] <troy_s> i don't think it is about an ego trip, but rather he hasn't found the substance in the community to warrant trust yet.
[08:04] <BHSPitLappy> I'm not ready to publish them yet, I need to get permission from a friend first
[08:04] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy go have a peep at that link.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> troy_s, I've actually already heard the three there.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> the three FINAL ones. and I'm not a fan of any of them...
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> :/
[08:05] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy inevitable.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> no offense if the makers are here
[08:05] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy those creative bits are always subjective.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> well, it shouldn't be too subjective what a login sound SHOULD accomplish
[08:06] <troy_s> i don't think anyone would take offense at folks who dislike something.  just simple aesthetics.
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> it's not supposed to be a fanfare
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> which is what those are
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> I like the dapper sounds a lot
[08:06] <troy_s> what are you basing the 'should' on?
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> reason
[08:06] <troy_s> because without some backup design references, you might be hard pressed to have anyone listen.
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> obviously not completely
[08:07] <msikma> troy_s: ultimately, we are making a distro that is to become popular on the desktop market. Good design is terribly essential. Sabdfl is not a designer.
[08:07] <BHSPitLappy> who's sabdfl
[08:07] <troy_s> msikma -- if you get a proto up of the spotlight and seveas gets the usplash changes in
[08:07] <troy_s> msikma -- sabdfl though is the client.
[08:07] <msikma> Surely, he's the client we're working for, but I feel that perhaps it might not hurt to be a bit more bold someitmes.
[08:07] <troy_s> msikma -- it has been tried.  he wields the power and ultimately it is easier to get changes if you simply 'pull' certain directions rather than reinventing the wheel.
[08:08] <Seveas> "sabdfl is not a designer" is quite true
[08:08] <Seveas> he was responsible for the r-rated warty theme 
[08:08] <troy_s> agree 100%, but that said
[08:08] <troy_s> we need to develop a proof that we can be programatic with the art development
[08:08] <troy_s> integrate well with the rest of the team
[08:08] <Seveas> indeed
[08:08] <troy_s> and produce stuff that simply 'works' with the existing set.
[08:08] <msikma> For now, yes.
[08:08] <troy_s> radical changes don't actually help, no matter how 'good' they are'
[08:09] <msikma> But I believe that the future holds us making art that disregards what is currently available and sets a new course. One that actually works.
[08:09] <troy_s> they actually detract from the overall consistency, which is at least as important as to how 'good' something is.
[08:09] <msikma> The current human GTK theme, for example, or the human icon set, they do not work, from my point of view.
[08:09] <troy_s> msikma -- absolutely -- but that i would hope is grounded in solid design theory
[08:09] <troy_s> meaning it is more likely he will listen if we provide a solid design doc
[08:09] <msikma> Hmmm
[08:09] <troy_s> with a solid grounding with _references_ to
[08:09] <troy_s> design books
[08:10] <troy_s> otherwise, it is nothing more than pure comment
[08:10] <troy_s> and _everyone_ has a comment.
[08:10] <troy_s> he needs to feel comfortable that the decisions are based on A) education, B) good solid design theory, C) work with his 'view' of what ubuntu stands for.
[08:10] <troy_s> and that will take a good bit of effort.
[08:10] <Seveas> troy_s, that's probab;y the most sensoble thing said about Ubuntu artwork ever
[08:10] <msikma> But one of Ubuntu's strengths is the fact that people who are more knowledgeable on something are listened to more than people who aren't. That way you can already filter out a lot of the noise.
[08:10] <troy_s> which is again why i encourage everyone to simply 'buy' into what we have
[08:11] <troy_s> msikma -- in fact, there is one person who is more listened to than others -- and we must respect the fact that while we may not agree with 100% of his decisions
[08:11] <troy_s> he is the SOLE reason that ubuntu is a real desktop threat at the moment.
[08:12] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy hang in there... hopefully the wiki can get you up to speed more easily than it was to get up to speed four months ago.
[08:12] <BHSPitLappy> does he actually call himself sabdfl?
[08:12] <troy_s> msikma, and never forget, who is 'more knowledgable' is, as einstein's general theory of relativity is concerned, is relative.
[08:12] <msikma> I still wonder, though. Take Jimmac's icon theme, Tango, for example. There is no doubt that he is well-educated, experienced and knowledgeable in the many different fields of graphic design. It could be argued that changing the set's colors to orange with Tangerine could be considered making the icons work with Ubuntu's philosophy. Yet, it was rejected for what I feel are very feeble and uneducated reasons.
[08:13] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy its an open source term.
[08:13] <BHSPitLappy> I know what it is
[08:13] <BHSPitLappy> but it says that it's his nick on freenode
[08:13] <BHSPitLappy> and if he refers to himself as that, then wow
[08:13] <troy_s> msikma -- while i respect jimmac immensley, what are his education credentials?
[08:13] <troy_s> outside of open source?
[08:13] <msikma> To be honest, I don't really care.
[08:13] <msikma> I don't see why we should.
[08:13] <troy_s> msikma -- that is nice, but when you are spending a good deal of money on something
[08:13] <troy_s> those credentials matter
[08:13] <troy_s> to accept the risk
[08:14] <msikma> Not really. Jimmac is so incredibly experienced and has done many jobs for large companies.
[08:14] <troy_s> J. Ives has a fine arts degree.
[08:14] <msikma> That strongly outweighs education.
[08:14] <troy_s> and dare i say, his stature is probably a byproduct of it.
[08:14] <msikma> It is my experience that it's a strong showreel of skills and experience that gets a designer a job as opposed to him having gone to a school.
[08:14] <troy_s> msikma -- its both.
[08:14] <msikma> But moreso the showreel.
[08:15] <troy_s> education shows dedication to the craft.
[08:15] <troy_s> it also provides one with a solid background in historical design decisions.
[08:15] <msikma> Einstein wasn't a good scholar, either.
[08:15] <troy_s> and art movements.
[08:15] <troy_s> exceptions are easily found... but look to the more commons...
[08:15] <msikma> I've seen interns do better stuff than hardened professionals. I think that it's dumb to discard someone like Jimmac because "Hmm, which school did he go to anyway?"
[08:16] <troy_s> personally, when i am hiring someone, i look to BOTH
[08:16] <troy_s> it simply shows dedication
[08:17] <msikma> Anyway, the point is that Jimmac's icon set is a product of his gigantic amount of experience. Perhaps of his knowledge of design theory as well; regardless if he went to a good school or not. It was rejected.
[08:17] <msikma> This makes me very uncertain about any of my contributions.
[08:17] <troy_s> well... ultimately a project can't be for everyone.
[08:17] <troy_s> perhaps that is a question that one needs to ask themselves.
[08:17] <troy_s> you can't please everyone.
[08:17] <msikma> I would contribute more if it weren't for the fact my contributions could at any time be revoked for bad reasons.
[08:17] <msikma> This is not a pay job.
[08:17] <troy_s> bad or otherwise.
[08:18] <msikma> If my contributions are discarded for good reasons, then that's just tough luck. If it's rejected for a bad reason, it's a reason for me to leave and never come back.
[08:18] <troy_s> that is a personal question i suppose.
[08:18] <msikma> The reason why I'm contributing to this is because it would be beneficial to the world if Ubuntu became a popular desktop operating system.
[08:19] <troy_s> for me, good and bad are so relative i would rather discuss 'what is art' for the umpteenth thousandth time.
[08:19] <msikma> But that seems to not be sabdfl's agenda, if he is so concerned with taking decisions even if he is not knowledgeable on the subject.
[08:19] <troy_s> msikma -- perhaps -- and yet his decisions thus far have resulted in the most popular distribution that has managed to persuade sun, intel, and a few other significant vendors to be revealed.
[08:19] <troy_s> including dell.
[08:20] <troy_s> and a few others.
[08:20] <troy_s> so like it or not, there is something working within his vision.
[08:20] <msikma> Doesn't matter.
[08:20] <msikma> He's not a designer.
[08:20] <troy_s> well then i guess ultimately one mask ask who 'is'
[08:20] <troy_s> must ask.
[08:20] <troy_s> which is again tricky .
[08:21] <msikma> Someone who discards good art with the reason of "nah don't really like it" is not.
[08:21] <troy_s> msikma -- i feel your pain.
[08:21] <troy_s> i have had to argue with a client regarding composition for something, but alas, it is ultimately _their_ call.
[08:21] <troy_s> when i do my own projects, i get to put whatever twist i feel in.
[08:22] <troy_s> when i do theirs, the ones that pay me or offer me something else, i cleave to their work.
[08:22] <msikma> Anyway, I currently have better things to do than stifle discussions with vague points concerning the identity of the graphic designer. I hope you won't mind. I'll talk to you a bit later.
[08:22] <troy_s> certainly.
[08:22] <troy_s> be good msikma.
[08:22] <msikma> Also that was jokingly said, I like these discussions
[08:22] <msikma> (The comment about stifling discussions)
[08:23] <troy_s> ship me your design concepts for a new evolution too
[08:23] <troy_s> as i would like to get much input and see if i can phrase it in a way that sabdfl would find plausible.
[08:35] <BHSPitLappy> connection problems, msikma ?
[10:48] <BHSPitLappy> hey PingunZ
[10:49] <PingunZ> hey BHSPitLappy
[10:49] <PingunZ> I wast just going to sleep
[10:49] <PingunZ> so quick ;)
[10:49] <BHSPitLappy> heh.
[10:49] <BHSPitLappy> I recorded some sounds today
[10:49] <PingunZ> nice
[10:49] <PingunZ> quick quick, links :)
[10:50] <PingunZ> or mail, pingunz#gmail.com
[10:50] <PingunZ> I'll listen tomorrow
[10:50] <BHSPitLappy> can't yet
[10:50] <PingunZ> ' NIght all
[10:50] <BHSPitLappy> night