[12:11] <ompaul> jenda, are you finished at this stage?
[12:11] <ompaul> I am finished
[12:11] <jenda> me too
[12:11] <ompaul> johnlittle, are you finished
[12:11] <jenda> I'm totally finished and off to bed ;)
[12:12] <johnlittle> ompaul yes
[12:12] <MenZa> gnight jenda
[12:13] <ompaul> Burgundavia, you finished?
[12:13] <jenda> nighty nigh
[12:13] <jenda> t
[12:13] <johnlittle> nite
[12:14] <Burgundavia> ompaul: editing? yes
[12:14] <Burgundavia> jenda: night jenda
[12:14] <Burgundavia> thanks
[12:18] <Burgundavia> no worries, any is good
[12:18] <Burgundavia> ok, why does opening the edit window bring ephy to its knees?
[12:19] <jenda> ouch
[12:21] <Burgundavia> oh, crap
[12:22] <Burgundavia> does anybody have a newer saved version from the gobby session?
[12:22] <Burgundavia> I lost a bunch
[12:22] <jenda> oh now
[12:23] <poningru> whats the ip addy again?
[12:23] <Burgundavia> it is gone there
[12:23] <jenda> 24.69.71.211
[12:23] <Burgundavia> my gobby crashed
[12:23] <poningru> oh
[12:24] <Burgundavia> I kept telling people to save
[12:24] <Burgundavia> this is why
[12:24] <jenda> ompaul?
[12:24] <Burgundavia> nope
[12:24] <poningru> craaaap
[12:24] <ompaul> ahh
[12:24] <jenda> asked sladen?
[12:24] <poningru> I almost saved like 10 min ago
[12:24] <ompaul> I saved about 10 seconds before you cut it
[12:24] <poningru> awesome
[12:24] <ompaul> okay lets see
[12:25] <Burgundavia> ompaul: go nuts
[12:25] <jenda> ompaul, we owe you one.
[12:25] <ompaul> no
[12:25] <Burgundavia> this is why everybody needs to keep locally saved copies, at least until gobby understands bzr
[12:25] <ompaul> I thought saving was on the server
[12:25] <Burgundavia> no, saving is yours
[12:26] <ompaul> what kind of file am I looking for?
[12:26] <jenda> a txt?
[12:26] <Burgundavia> it should be in your home dir, under Ubuntu Weekly News
[12:26] <Burgundavia> ompaul: theCore has one
[12:26] <ompaul> I have it I think
[12:27] <ompaul> Burgundavia,  okay it is there if you want it
[12:27] <ompaul> available on your server
[12:28] <jenda> hello theCore
[12:28] <Burgundavia> ok, got it ompaul
[12:28] <ompaul> Whoot!
[12:28] <ompaul> now I can go nuts
[12:28] <ompaul> :)
[12:28] <theCore> hello all
[12:28] <ompaul> where are theCore and sladen ?
[12:29] <Burgundavia> ok, newer text on the wiki
[12:29] <ompaul> okay
[12:29] <Burgundavia> #ubuntu-doc
[12:29] <theCore> ompaul, over are
[12:29] <theCore> here 8
[12:29] <ompaul> na country
[12:29] <Burgundavia> sladen is UK
[12:29] <jenda> yay @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue12
[12:29] <jenda> hello sladen
[12:29] <ompaul> cos that was florida .ie .uk .cz .ca and ..
[12:30] <Burgundavia> sladen: you editing the wiki page right now?
[12:30] <jenda> the contents on the page are weird...
[12:30] <Burgundavia> in what way?
[12:31] <jenda> If no one's editing, I'd fix them.
[12:31] <ompaul> just a sec
[12:31] <jenda> they only show one item
[12:31] <Burgundavia> yep, that is odd
[12:31] <Burgundavia> but the UWN usually doesn't have a auto created toc anyway
[12:32] <ompaul> ahh it should do, it would look more professional
[12:32] <ompaul> what are the hits for that part of the site>
[12:32] <ompaul> we should make sure it is (A) getting seen
[12:32] <jenda> well, not sure how that would look in the emailed version
[12:32] <Burgundavia> the issue is, we need a manual one for the emailed version
[12:32] <ompaul> it would look rubbish as it
[12:33] <Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits
[12:33] <jenda> anyway, i think, sladen, that if you remove the (1) in the contents piece at the top, it should work.
[12:36] <theCore> puts a 2 instead
[12:36] <jenda> I'd leave it without
[12:36] <jenda> (the 2)
[12:37] <jenda> BTW, have we decided on a format for the mailed version? There have been points raised on the topic.
[12:37] <jenda> The wiki format might not be absolutely suitable.
[12:39] <sladen> what's happening now?
[12:39] <sladen> are we editing on the wiki
[12:39] <sladen> on gobby?
[12:39] <jenda> We thought you are :)
[12:39] <jenda> no, not on gobby
[12:41] <sladen> fridge has stuff on upstart
[12:41] <jenda> sladen, are you editing the wiki?
[12:41] <jenda> good point
[12:42] <Burgundavia> the wiki
[12:42] <sladen> revu day
[12:42] <sladen> siretart on behind ubuntu
[12:42] <Burgundavia> are you still adding content?
[12:42] <jenda> sladen, are you editing the wiki right now?
[12:43] <sladen> jenda: no
[12:43] <jenda> ok, I'll fix the ToC, then leave you to it.
[12:44] <sladen> we need a gobby<->wiki direct interface
[12:44] <jenda> done
[12:45] <sladen> anyone know how to put a floating-right-aligned image into moinmoin
[12:45] <sladen> we have the upstart.png logo
[12:45] <Burgundavia> need to enclose it in a div tag
[12:45] <sladen> example?
[12:45] <Burgundavia> and that is going to look hideous in the email version
[12:45] <Burgundavia> the toc stuff
[12:46] <Burgundavia> sorry s/div/table
[12:46] <Burgundavia> please don't dive into heavy moin code
[12:46] <jenda> Burgundavia: you won't see it in the email version.
[12:46] <Burgundavia> this has to go out via plain text email
[12:46] <jenda> it will look like: "
[12:46] <jenda> ||<tablestyle="float:right; font-size: 0.9em; width:40%; background:#F1F1ED; margin: 0 0 1em 1em;" style="padding:0.5em;">'''Contents'''[[BR] ] [[TableOfContents] ] ||"
[12:46] <jenda> And will easily be deleted.
[12:46] <Burgundavia> look, please, no fancy stuff
[12:47] <Burgundavia> we are already 15 hours behind schedule
[12:47] <sladen> Burgundavia: dude, just delete it from the email version
[12:47] <Burgundavia> lets get this issue out and then work on 13 if you want to plan
[12:47] <Burgundavia> play
[12:47] <sladen> Burgundavia: the bad part of the email version is that it can't be fixed afterwards as it is
[12:47] <jenda> Oh, and BTW, I recieved feedback that it would be more appropriate if the UWN came from @ubuntu.com addys
[12:47] <Burgundavia> yes, but that is copy editing, not play\ing with fancy stuff
[12:47] <jenda> sladen: the easy solution - read once before clicking the send button ;)
[12:47] <Burgundavia> then I will send out via my ubuntu.com addy
[12:48] <Burgundavia> ok, pulling down my gobby session
[12:48] <jenda> of course - he commented after it was sent from another one.
[12:48] <Burgundavia> yep, last few have been sent from gmail addys
[12:49] <Burgundavia> jenda: you done editing?
[12:49] <jenda> done
[12:49] <Burgundavia> doc is mine
[12:50] <jenda> in fact, wouldn't it be best to have an uwn@ubuntu.com for this purpose, BTW?
[12:50] <jenda> Shouldn't be that hard to set up...
[12:50] <Burgundavia> why hide the editor?
[12:50] <Burgundavia> I hate impersonal things
[12:51] <jenda> not hidden, included in the issue itself. But sure - it's just an idea.
[12:51] <jenda> editing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[12:52] <ompaul> Burgundavia, the news letter might get a better airing with an RSS feed
[12:52] <ompaul> Just an idea
[12:52] <Burgundavia> yep, it might
[12:52] <Burgundavia> but then again, it does go out via the fridge feed
[12:52] <Burgundavia> I will mention that
[12:52] <ompaul> its getting 250 hits
[12:52] <ompaul> sorry 125
[12:52] <Burgundavia> sladen: does the fridge have category based rss feeds?
[12:53] <ompaul> anyway it is good night from Dublin cheers all
[12:54] <sladen> Burgundavia: not sure, probably
[12:54] <Burgundavia> might be nice to have a UWN-only RSS feed
[12:54] <jenda> Team, btw, what do you think about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies ?
[12:55] <jenda> And, should I add a line about Gobby?
[12:55] <jenda> ^ needs review, etc.
[12:55] <Burgundavia> the whole editing section needs a revamp
[12:55] <Burgundavia> please edit as needed
[12:56] <Burgundavia> I will review
[12:57] <sladen> okay  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/uwn
[12:57] <sladen> foobar
[12:57] <sladen> maybe not
[12:58] <jenda> I really gotta sleep. Night again. Thanks to all, good job 
[12:58] <Burgundavia> cya
[01:04] <theCore> sweet, libobby for emacs http://dev.technomancy.us/phil/wiki/ebby
[01:08] <sladen> Burgundavia: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/uwn/feed
[01:08] <sladen> Burgundavia: but if you go to  /uwn   it's giving the main feed in the url bar
[01:09] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[01:27] <sladen> Burgundavia: is UWN going out tonight?
[01:30] <Burgundavia> sladen: yes, as soon I am done copy editing
[01:30] <Burgundavia> the edgy apps stuff requires more work than it looked
[01:31] <sladen> we should consider keeping it in gobby for much longer
[01:31] <sladen> once it's in the wiki it's dead time when only one person can attact it
[01:33] <Burgundavia> yep
[01:33] <Burgundavia> I thought we were further along the editing process than we were
[01:34] <Burgundavia> what do you need to do?
[01:42] <Burgundavia> sladen: page is yours if you need it
[01:48] <sladen> Burgundavia: I don't need to, but I was going to link in some of the other fridge stuff if you think it's worth it
[01:48] <sladen> Burgundavia: if you're happy with it, let it go
[01:53] <Burgundavia> ajmitch said he would send an update to -devel on his SoC project in the next two hours, so I was going to wait for that until 03:00 UTC
[03:08] <elkbuntu> turn that crap off please Cogito_ergo_sum-
[03:09] <nixternal> heh
[03:13] <Burgundavia> elkbuntu: you can ask nicely
[03:13] <Burgundavia> Cogito_ergo_sum: can you please turn off your music notification? it makes the logs noisier
[03:19] <elkbuntu> Burgundavia, i had no idea whether it was away notification, media notification, blog post notification or whatever you could think to announce somewhere
[03:19] <Burgundavia> oh wait, that was an away notification
[03:19] <elkbuntu> glad you can tell :|
[03:20] <Burgundavia> regardless, it all spam
[03:20] <elkbuntu> yeah
[03:35] <Burgundavia> elkbuntu: can you do a final check of UWN 12 to ctach any glaring error?
[03:35] <elkbuntu> still on gobby?
[03:37] <Burgundavia> no, on the wiki
[03:37] <elkbuntu> yeah i figured when gobby wouldnt connect :P
[03:39] <Burgundavia> server is down
[03:42] <elkbuntu> Burgundavia, "Engadget and Slashdot reported on the Janus Project, a custom built"  <-- is something supposed to follow there?
[03:42] <Burgundavia> oh, that should die
[03:44] <elkbuntu> if your'e in edit.. the rss message jhas a typo
[03:45] <Burgundavia> the no subscribe one?
[03:45] <elkbuntu> "You can no subscribe to the Ubuntu Weekly News via RSS at:"
[03:45] <elkbuntu> yeah
[03:45] <Burgundavia> got that
[03:46] <elkbuntu> looks fine to me then
[03:48] <Burgundavia> ok, off it goes
[03:51] <Burgundavia> I like to not hide
[03:51] <Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news/2006-September/000052.html <-- rather
[03:58] <elkbuntu> Burgundavia, you didnt fix the typos?
[03:59] <Burgundavia> elkbuntu: which typos? I thought I did
[03:59] <elkbuntu> they're still in that email... the ones i pointed out
[03:59] <Burgundavia> hmm, I did, but they didn't come through
[03:59] <Burgundavia> that is odd
[03:59] <elkbuntu> d'oh :(
[04:00] <Burgundavia> meh, one little error is pretty minor
[04:00] <elkbuntu> yeah
[04:00] <Burgundavia> it is also near the bottom of the page
[04:00] <elkbuntu> the engaget/slashdot thing is still in there though also
[04:00] <Burgundavia> bugger. I did remove those
[04:01] <Burgundavia> no, it looks to be a copy paste error
[04:01] <Fujitsu_> Burgundavia, you here?
[04:01] <Fujitsu_> That FIXME is still there >_<
[04:02] <Burgundavia> I also check every email one last time before I send it through, in the spam filter on mailman
[04:02] <Burgundavia> however, there is a bug that it only displays the first half or so
[04:02] <Burgundavia> which means I couldn't see those bugs
[04:02] <Burgundavia> Fujitsu_: yep, what do you need?
[04:02] <Fujitsu_> Just informing you that the FIXME was left in UWN... Is this what you're talking about?
[04:03] <Burgundavia> right, just got an email about that
[04:03] <Burgundavia> meh
[04:03] <Fujitsu_> That was me emailing, Burgundavia :)
[04:03] <elkbuntu> oh.. crap.. it was... sorry corey :(
[04:04] <Burgundavia> I added them and forgot to grep for them before I sent
[04:04] <Burgundavia> add it to the release checklist
[04:04] <Fujitsu_> Was it you I saw asking for that wiki page this morning?
[04:04] <Fujitsu_> I saw someone doing it...
[04:04] <Burgundavia> no, asking for a gobby session
[04:05] <Burgundavia> we were editing it as part of gobby and my machine borked on me
[04:05] <Fujitsu_> Ah. Terrific.
[04:05] <elkbuntu> the uwn is cursed
[04:05] <Burgundavia> gobby is really great but a little fragile
[04:05] <elkbuntu> the wiki dies for it and now gobby also :|
[04:05] <Burgundavia> no, errors are made when releasing
[04:06] <Burgundavia> even big news papers have a hard time with checking
[04:06] <Fujitsu_> The wiki being silly wouldn't have helped.
[04:06] <Burgundavia> Gaurdian anyone?
[04:06] <Fujitsu_> Hahah.
[04:06] <Fujitsu_> I am absolutely pedantic, so I'm available if you want to make sure it's perfect in future :P
[04:08] <poningru> arr
[04:09] <poningru> it is 12 right?
[04:09] <elkbuntu> yeah
[04:10] <Burgundavia> yep
[04:11] <Burgundavia> plesae create a /ReleaseChecklist of the UbuntuWeeklyNews page
[04:11] <Burgundavia> I am headed out to enjoy some theatre
[04:12] <elkbuntu> cya corey
[04:16] <adamant1988> hello all
[04:16] <adamant1988> nixternal what's up?
[04:19] <poningru> adios
[04:19] <poningru> elkbuntu: you wanna work on that?
[04:19] <elkbuntu> poningru, cant now.. waiting for something then gotta go do some frantic running around
[04:20] <elkbuntu> :(
[04:20] <nixternal> adamant1988: wasabi
[04:20] <nixternal> yes i read the paper
[04:21] <nixternal> your distributor == current partners
[04:21] <nixternal> plus, they aren't going to give mass amounts of CDs out...i can get 1000 cds and hand them out in less than an hour..but out of those 1000, i am willing to be 10 or less will even try it
[04:21] <nixternal> so it can be a waste of money
[04:22] <adamant1988> nixternal: that's why you make it the distributors job to follow up on it
[04:22] <nixternal> right now, they are concentrating on the "community" more than anything else, so anything "official" with canonical probably isn't going to happen, or wouldn't happen for a while
[04:22] <adamant1988> yeah, I suppose.
[04:22] <nixternal> adamant1988: thats how it is now though
[04:22] <adamant1988> It was just a shot in the dark.
[04:22] <nixternal> i can make an order, and have them here in a week
[04:23] <nixternal> create and entity and become a partner...granted there isn't much benefit, except for the fact you are first in line for CDs
[04:23] <nixternal> and you get pimped on Ubuntu.com
[04:23] <adamant1988> are you an actual partner?
[04:23] <nixternal> don't have to be...i am an official loco
[04:24] <nixternal> well im not...Ubuntu Chicago is..and I am the team lead, so i can fire up and email and place an order
[04:25] <adamant1988> Ah, so being an official loco gives you these privileges?
[04:25] <nixternal> but everytime i order, i like them to the reason why i need so many..like Ubuntu Chicago is going to be doing a "Sidewalk Tech Days" with the FREE GEEK project in the enext few weeks
[04:25] <nixternal> it gives you some priviledges yes
[04:26] <poningru> nixternal: wanna make a translation team? locale HO_en, we will convert ubuntu into ghettonese
[04:26] <nixternal> hahaha
[04:26] <nixternal> i can speak Chicago Southside
[04:26] <Fujitsu> :O
[04:26] <nixternal> tree instead of three, utes instead of youths *just like my cousin vinny*
[04:27] <poningru> :)
[04:28] <poningru> it was rob I believe was talking about it jokingly
[04:28] <poningru> so all props go to him
[04:28] <poningru> about ff
[06:12] <MitchM> elkbuntu: ping
[08:04] <elkbuntu> MitchM_, pingpong
[08:21] <jenda> Burgundavia: "You can find more information
[08:21] <jenda> at FIXME (location of wiki page that talks about how to test
[08:21] <jenda> dapper-proposed)"
[08:22] <jenda> oops 
[08:23] <elkbuntu> jenda, he knows
[08:23] <jenda> ok
[08:24] <elkbuntu> his copy-paste betrayed him
[08:24] <Madpilot> so part of the UWN was actually done in Gobby to provide a relevant screenshot? Cool
[08:24] <jenda> Happens.
[08:25] <jenda> Madpilot: actually, almost all of it was.
[08:41] <elkbuntu> o.O evil newspaper hasnt published the article yet :(
[08:43] <jenda> aww
[08:43] <jenda> We will wait :)
[08:44] <elkbuntu> but but but.. i waaaaaant it noooowwww :(
[08:45] <elkbuntu> :)
[08:46] <Madpilot> poningru, elkbuntu is a media celebrity now
[08:46] <elkbuntu> not yet im not.. they havent published it yet
[08:47] <poningru> arr?
[08:47] <elkbuntu> i think steve urwin has taken my spotlight
[08:47] <poningru> how come I didnt hear about this??
[08:47] <elkbuntu> 'who gives a stuff about technology, some stingray killed the crocodile hunter, crikey!'
[08:51] <jenda> BTW, I can't find the wikipage we missed in the UWN - perhaps there is none such.
[11:30] <Burgundavia> ompaul, sladen: please add your thoughts to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/ReleaseChecklist
[01:56] <jenda> Burgundavia: how about merging the Editing Policies and the Checklist?
[01:56] <jenda> would make more sense to me, I think.
[03:10] <jenda> elkbuntu: Is it out yet? ;)
[03:10] <elkbuntu> no :(
[03:10] <elkbuntu> i think the media attention was focussed squarely elsewhere today
[03:11] <jenda> Where's that? (Haven't been 'in' much)
[03:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, steve erwin (popular guy on tv here) and colin thealy (sp) died
[03:14] <jenda> ah...
[03:14] <jenda> Accident?
[03:14] <elkbuntu> the crocodile hunter and some author
[03:14] <elkbuntu> first yes, second age
[03:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> erwin? (note: i dont like him) being stupid... stinging wiht sting rays
[03:15] <jenda> Sorry to hear.
[03:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> *swimimng with
[03:16] <elkbuntu> from what i've heard... he was filming stingrays or something and did his usual antics and the ray retaliated ;)
[03:16] <jenda> that sucks
[03:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> its not the first time stuffs retaliated., just the first time he died from it :)
[03:16] <elkbuntu> yeah
[03:17] <jenda> elkbuntu, Kamping_Kaiser, what do you think about shipping Ubuntu Posters?
[03:17] <elkbuntu> what sort of price are you looking at?
[03:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, where?
[03:18] <jenda> It looks like $0.80 per poster rock-bottom
[03:18] <jenda> But that's if I order 500 pcs
[03:19] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: anywhere :) I'm global.
[03:19] <jenda> If I order 200, the price would be $1.50 apiece.
[03:19] <elkbuntu> that's US, right?
[03:19] <jenda> The shipping is about $3 worldwide.
[03:19] <jenda> elkbuntu: nope, Czech Republic, shipping anywhere - err.. yes, USD
[03:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> $3 for a decent poster is ok. (ok? good?)
[03:21] <elkbuntu> for shpping.. then $1.50 a piece for the actual poster
[03:22] <elkbuntu> what size are these again, jenda? A3?
[03:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> 1.50usa=3aus
[03:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> (or close enough)
[03:23] <jenda> elkbuntu: a little bigger
[03:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> what is on them? the circle of friends?
[03:24] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: my sources tell me $1.5 USD = $2 AUD (xe.com)
[03:24] <elkbuntu> not really, Kamping_Kaiser, 1.50 USD = 1.94655 AUD
[03:24] <elkbuntu> according to xe.com
[03:24] <jenda> yeppers
[03:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> wow. since when have we been doing that well.
[03:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> (or not)
[03:25] <elkbuntu> since a while now
[03:25] <jenda> so for one poster, an aussie would pay me $6 AUD (4+2) ;)
[03:25] <jenda> But it would be less for more, of course.
[03:25] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: the design is not ready yet.
[03:25] <elkbuntu> well.. you do it by per-poster then shipment for the batch added on
[03:25] <jenda> oh, and that is the _top_ price there - we could go down to half of that, maybe.
[03:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'd be interested
[03:26] <sladen> ooops there was a FIXME in the UWN that went out
[03:26] <jenda> sladen: yep :)
[03:26] <jenda> The thing is I'd have to sell over 300 to be even.
[03:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. yeh, someone in -doc noticed as soon as it was sent ;)
[03:26] <elkbuntu> sladen, yes, future uwns will be stringently audited
[03:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> time for the .1 update ;)
[03:26] <jenda> sladen: see Burgundavia's ping above.
[03:27] <elkbuntu> jenda, i personally would probably get 2. lugs would probably get a dozen
[03:28] <elkbuntu> actually, i'd get 3 and stick one on my wall :P
[03:28] <jenda> :)
[03:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> i could get a stack of intrest together, esp for $2-3
[03:28] <elkbuntu> yeah
[03:29] <Kamping_Kaiser> i can think of a safe half dozen, plus i'm sure a lot of -au would get 1/more
[03:29] <elkbuntu> jenda, you're filling the gap of 'hmm i need a few posters, but i have no freaking idea of how to go about it and/or they want body-parts before they'll do small batches'
[03:30] <elkbuntu> well, s/posters/$marketing-material/
[03:30] <jenda> I'm thinking if it would be viable to send batches of 5 posters minimum... but then I could lose the users who only want one :(
[03:30] <jenda> elkbuntu: I'm trying to :)
[03:30] <elkbuntu> jenda, if they're willing to pay, send the 1
[03:30] <jenda> Yes ma'm. Will do.
[03:30] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, perhaps you can say 'you can get one, but its better value to get '3,4,5,6,76,7,etc'
[03:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> becaue people will often buy more, just to get the value ;)
[03:31] <elkbuntu> jenda, 2 would be a better minimum rather than as many as 5
[03:31] <elkbuntu> lol
[03:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
[03:31] <elkbuntu> i anticipate i'll be sending those out soon.. /me goes to check email to see when they would have sent them
[03:32] <jenda> elkbuntu: ok, i think I'll go with any number they ask, and do the math easy: $1 or $1.50 per poster + $3 shipping.
[03:32] <elkbuntu> yeah
[03:32] <elkbuntu> will they be sent rolled or flat?
[03:32] <jenda> elkbuntu: perhaps more importantly, I'm trying to get others do the same - through that website.
[03:32] <jenda> flat.
[03:32] <jenda> The tubes are waaay too expensive.
[03:32] <elkbuntu> speeeeaking of.. i should do some more on that, lol
[03:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> flat?
[03:33] <elkbuntu> jenda, if you use official ones, sure ;)
[03:33] <jenda> Maybe for orders above 10 pcs.
[03:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
[03:33] <jenda> elkbuntu: as in - make my own?
[03:33] <jenda> I would have to charge too much for that too :-D
[03:33] <jenda> elkbuntu: there's no hurry.
[03:34] <jenda> Anyway, I'm leaving _again_ in two days - for a week.
[03:34] <elkbuntu> jenda, lol, ghetto poster tubes wouldnt be good for international postage
[03:34] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: it's >A3 because that's the size of the envelope.
[03:34] <elkbuntu> jenda, awwww.. why do you keep disappearing?
[03:34] <jenda> elkbuntu: there's RL work in my country house to do :)
[03:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
[03:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> elkbuntu, hes a mover and shaker
[03:35] <elkbuntu> with no internet access? how rude
[03:36] <jenda> aaand, I went to an old family friend in east moravia before... relaxin' :-D (with a lot of RL work to do there too... such as chopping wood or cutting grass (real scythe!), sharpening knives and axes.)
[03:36] <jenda> And before that it was a three week trip to Estonia - volunteer labour on a festival there.
[03:36] <jenda> Come to speak of it - it's no wonder I'm out of cash :-D
[03:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
[03:45] <elkbuntu> of course they're not. all they've managed to do (no offense intended) for providing marketing materials to the average joe, is the stickers with the cds
[04:01] <jenda> hehe - I still haven't bought enough of a strong glue to make it stick on the lid of my lappy.
[04:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> night all, gl with it jenda, catch you son
[04:01] <jenda> Night, daddy :-D
[05:16] <adamant1988> Hello all
[05:20] <elkbuntu> they didhttp://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/linux-wins-over-new-fans/2006/09/04/1157222061911.html
[05:20] <elkbuntu> gah.. they did do it* http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/linux-wins-over-new-fans/2006/09/04/1157222061911.html
[05:47] <jenda> elkbuntu: why don't i see your name anywhere in there?
[05:47] <jenda> :)
[05:47] <jenda> Hello adamant1988
[05:48] <elkbuntu> you should.. one of the later paragraphs
[05:48] <elkbuntu> i only got a little mention :(
[05:48] <adamant1988> hey jenda
[05:48] <jenda> aww
[05:49] <jenda> I didn't really read it :) but I'll skim through.
[05:50] <jenda> Found it. It's short, but sweet ;)
[05:50] <jenda> And don't forget that people always remember the last part of a conversation (article in this case)
[05:51] <adamant1988> speaking of reading </shameless_plug>
[05:51] <jenda> I know, adamant1988 - it's on my todo list
[05:52] <jenda> But I'm really encumbered with 1) DIY marketing 2) Spreadubuntu 3) You wouldn't believe: RL
[05:52] <adamant1988> Haha, I understand the RL part.
[05:53] <adamant1988> I'm having this huge todo with my significant other because she's under the impression that I want to cheat on her
[05:53] <adamant1988> fun huh?
[05:54] <jenda> Whoa - the printer updates me: $0.63 per poster!!!
[05:54] <jenda> elkbuntu: ^
[05:54] <elkbuntu> wow, awesome
[05:54] <elkbuntu> that will probably change again once the design is decided on though
[05:54] <jenda> That's one hell of a price.
[05:55] <jenda> No, the price will stay independent on design.
[05:55] <jenda> and on number, in fact.
[05:55] <jenda> He said - 6900 CZK if above 500, 6100 if below 500
[06:00] <elkbuntu> wow
[06:04] <elkbuntu> MitchM_ ping?
[07:12] <Whit3Rabbit__> elkbuntu you around?
[07:13] <elkbuntu> yeah
[07:13] <elkbuntu> Whit3Rabbit__, yeah im here
[07:14] <MitcmM> =P
[07:14] <MitcmM> figure your DNS stuff out?
[07:14] <elkbuntu> did you get my email tonight?
[07:15] <elkbuntu> the dns stuff is figured but images dont work cos of permission errors
[07:15] <elkbuntu> try go to http://ubuntucounter.org/img/
[07:15] <MitcmM> hm.
[07:16] <MitcmM> Invalid User
[07:16] <MitcmM> What permision do you need?
[07:16] <elkbuntu> huh? you're seeing the image?
[07:17] <elkbuntu> Forbidden
[07:17] <elkbuntu> You don't have permission to access /ubuntucounter.org/img/ on this server.
[07:17] <elkbuntu> Apache/2.0.55 (Ubuntu) PHP/5.1.2 Server at 64.187.64.115 Port 80
[07:17] <elkbuntu> is what i and everyone else sees
[07:17] <nixternal> yup
[07:17] <MitcmM> hmm i see ubuntu counter Invliad #
[07:17] <MitcmM> invalid #
[07:17] <nixternal> 755 the /img dir
[07:17] <MitcmM> affirm
[07:18] <MitcmM> done.
[07:18] <MitcmM> same thing for me.
[07:18] <MitcmM> Invalid #
[07:18] <elkbuntu> still forbidden for me
[07:18] <MitcmM> http://ubuntucounter.org/img/ubuntu-user.php
[07:18] <MitcmM> points to 64.187.64.115 for you?
[07:19] <nixternal> ahhh
[07:19] <MitcmM> DNS updated yet?
[07:19] <elkbuntu> well that image works.. but the base dir does not
[07:19] <MitcmM> try 64.187.65.115/ubuntucounter.org/img/
[07:19] <MitcmM> I have indexes turned off by default; so if a folder does not have an index.html/php file it will give you a forbidden error...
[07:20] <MitcmM> let me turn on indexes for ubuntucoutner...
[07:20] <MitcmM> one second
[07:20] <nixternal> no, the base directory won't work like that because the directory is populated
[07:20] <nixternal> with .html or .php files
[07:20] <nixternal> and/or .htaccess is setup for the dir
[07:20] <MitcmM> ok; so what can't you view in the base dir?
[07:20] <nixternal> unless is was just images, no
[07:21] <nixternal> http://64.187.64.115/ubuntucounter.org/img/ubuntu-user2.php?user=822
[07:21] <nixternal> hrmmm
[07:21] <MitcmM> worked for me.
[07:21] <elkbuntu> you wouldnt have hotlinking off would you?
[07:21] <elkbuntu> somehow, however the hell that's done
[07:22] <MitcmM> it should followsymliks...
[07:22] <MitcmM> let me make sure
[07:23] <MitcmM> its good.
[07:23] <nixternal> http://ubuntucounter.org/img/ubuntu-user2.php?user=822
[07:23] <nixternal> it works!
[07:23] <MitcmM> works ...
[07:23] <MitcmM> ubuntucounter.org points to what IP for you elkbuntu?
[07:23] <nixternal> http://ubuntucounter.org/img/ubuntu-user.php?user=822
[07:23] <nixternal> it works ;)
[07:23] <MitcmM> (never didnt work for me... very strange)
[07:24] <elkbuntu> MitchM, it's pointing to the right place
[07:24] <MitcmM> affirm
[07:24] <MitcmM> let me grep my logs
[07:24] <elkbuntu> the images are still not showing up on people's sites..
[07:25] <MitcmM> other peoples sites could still be using old DNS values...
[07:25] <MitcmM> it takes up to 24 hours for all of that stuff to cycle...
[07:26] <MitcmM> does it work for you now?
[07:26] <elkbuntu> um..other people's dns affects what i see when i view the site?
[07:26] <MitcmM> no.
[07:26] <MitcmM> touche...
[07:27] <elkbuntu> im looking at for instance.. the lack of button on geekosophical.net and on blogsofwar.com etc etc
[07:27] <MitcmM> didnt know _you_ were looking at other sites
[07:27] <MitcmM> ah ok.
[07:27] <MitcmM> so does http://ubuntucounter.org/img/ubuntu-user.php?user=822
[07:27] <MitcmM> still not work for you?
[07:27] <MitcmM> http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/img/ubuntu-blogger.php?user=51
[07:27] <elkbuntu> it works if i view like that yes, but not in situ in sites :|
[07:28] <elkbuntu> that redirect was working before the .org redirect
[07:28] <MitcmM> ping ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net
[07:28] <MitcmM> PING ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net (72.29.87.109) 56(84) bytes of data.
[07:28] <elkbuntu> what?
[07:28] <MitcmM> 72.29.87.109 != 64.187.64.115
[07:29] <elkbuntu> wtf is going on?
[07:29] <MitcmM> DNS ^.^
[07:29] <elkbuntu> go to the subdomain, it goes to the right site
[07:30] <MitcmM> that is because someone is forwarding ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net to ubuntucounter.org
[07:30] <MitcmM> using a meta refresh
[07:30] <MitcmM> which means that hard links to ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/img/ will not work
[07:30] <MitcmM> unless ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net is pointed to 64.187.64.115
[07:31] <MitcmM> so try and get geekosophical.net to point their subdomain to 64.187.64.115 and I will set it up on my server to accept that as an alias for Ubuntucounter.org
[07:32] <MitchM> then everything works; and elkbuntu is happy
[07:32] <elkbuntu> geekosophical.net is my domain
[07:32] <MitchM> oh perfect!
[07:32] <elkbuntu> however, i only have cpanel to work with for it
[07:33] <MitchM> in dns set an A name record for ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net to point to 64.187.64.115
[07:33] <MitchM> and we will get everything fixed right up =)
[07:33] <elkbuntu> have you ever used cpanel? you dont get that sort of control
[07:34] <MitchM> hmm.. I have with all the hosting providers I've used.
[07:34] <MitchM> :-(
[07:34] <MitchM> or had the "luck" to use...
[07:35] <elkbuntu> all i can do is redirects
[07:35] <MitchM> no "total dns control" buttons?
[07:35] <elkbuntu> nope
[07:35] <elkbuntu> that's WHM
[07:35] <elkbuntu> i dont have that for this domain
[07:35] <MitchM> well; can you change your nameserver?
[07:37] <elkbuntu> i guess i can temporarily sacrifice the blog
[07:38] <MitchM> :-(
[07:38] <elkbuntu> sec.. let me try something
[07:38] <MitchM> k
[07:38] <MitchM> yahoo = best cpanel
[07:38] <elkbuntu> i might be able to set the domain back to namecheap and mess stuff around from there
[07:39] <MitchM> sounds like its worth a try...
[07:39] <elkbuntu> yeah
[07:39] <MitchM> also sounds like grade A hosting.
[07:40] <MitchM> http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?name=ubuntucounter.org&type=A
[07:40] <MitchM> thats looks awful.
[07:41] <MitchM> 5 different ip responses for the same domain.
[07:41] <MitchM> what are these guys doing?
[07:41] <nixternal> haha
[07:41] <MitchM> honestly; look at that nixternal.
[07:42] <MitchM> no wounder your angry with these guys..
[07:42] <elkbuntu> its the registrar dns.. they let you use up to 5 non-them nameservers.. so i guess they have 5 nameservers
[07:42] <MitchM> which all point to the _wrong_ ip
[07:43] <MitchM> only use 1.. or 2 nameservers at the most.
[07:43] <MitchM> otherwise its just a mess :-)
[07:43] <nixternal> dude, they are using the howtoforge.net stuff...that is where the dns1.name-services.com. comes from...one of their old bind articles
[07:43] <nixternal> ahh..so they leave the default dns* in there
[07:43] <nixternal> that isn't good
[07:44] <MitchM> i mean... wow.
[07:44] <nixternal> and each one of theose has an ip
[07:44] <MitchM> yeah.
[07:44] <MitchM> none which are mine.
[07:44] <MitchM> or the current server that is hosting ubuntucounter.org
[07:44] <MitchM> http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?name=somaticgaming.com&type=A
[07:45] <MitchM> that is another site that's hosted on that server...
[07:45] <MitchM> look at how sleek and pretty that entry is.
[07:45] <elkbuntu> what happens if that nameserver goes down though?
[07:45] <MitchM> you can use 2... nameservers.
[07:45] <MitchM> for redundancy.
[07:45] <MitchM> but 5 nameservers pointing in different directions = big jumbled DNS mess.
[07:46] <MitchM> look at http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?name=somaticgaming.com&type=A
[07:46] <MitchM> and then look at your ubuntucounter.org entry
[07:46] <Burgundavia> jenda: hmm, interesting idea
[07:46] <jenda> Burgundavia: check the guidelines, I think they cover both now.
[07:46] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[07:47] <MitchM> jenda: greetings
[07:47] <jenda> Hello MitchM :)
[07:47] <MitchM> jenda: any idea when you will get the next shipment of stickers out?
[07:47] <MitchM> =)
[07:47] <jenda> umm...
[07:47] <jenda> :)
[07:47] <MitchM> hehe.
[07:47] <jenda> You're out of yours already?
[07:48] <jenda> or they didn't arrive yet?
[07:48] <jenda> (me has a look in the papers...)
[07:48] <MitchM> oh.. you already sent the second one?
[07:48] <jenda> You ordered twice?
[07:48] <MitchM> ah ha.
[07:48] <jenda> damn... I'm sorry...
[07:48] <MitchM> we talked briefly ...
[07:48] <jenda> I must have missed that :(
[07:48] <MitchM> :-)
[07:49] <MitchM> yeah im out.
[07:49] <MitchM> 50?
[07:49] <MitchM> write me down for the next?
[07:49] <jenda> Lemme have a look...
[07:49] <elkbuntu> meh.. anyway, i've pointed the subdomain via the registrar
[07:49] <MitchM> k
[07:49] <jenda> I'll definitely have you written down, that's for sure.
[07:50] <jenda> The thing is - I'm not sure if I'll have the cash very soon for a next batch...
[07:50] <MitchM> k.
[07:50] <MitchM> i can paypal you.
[07:51] <jenda> You'll paypal me about 1/20th of the price, and i can't withdraw from there, but sure :-D
[07:51] <MitchM> lol.
[07:51] <MitchM> :-)
[07:52] <MitchM> i'll mail you some good ol
[07:52] <MitchM>  US dollars.
[07:52] <jenda> You're not the only one, though. There have been other demands, so perhaps I'll print the stickers and then save up a bit till I do the posters
[07:52] <MitchM> ok cool
[07:52] <jenda> MitchM: please don't :-D I don't trust the PO. One shipment of 100 CZK has already been lost in this business - and I'll soon move my paypal to CZ, and be able to withdraw
[07:54] <jenda> yeah... but that's barable, and besides the sender is willing to send again.
[07:54] <MitchM> :-)
[07:54] <MitchM> thats good
[07:54] <jenda> One thing that is a little less pleasant is a Danish 'customer' who sent money, and I sent stickers, and neither seems to have arrived... yet?
[07:56] <MenZa> :o
[07:57] <MitchM> :-
[07:57] <MitchM> (
[08:05] <jenda> Hmm... yeah, it seems like I'll have to order another batch. It's not that bad - about $100 for the lot, and I should get it back.
[08:05] <jenda> MitchM, I'll soon have MenZa's stickers available too :)
[08:06] <MitchM> oh goodies.
[08:06] <jenda> In fact, if you ask nicely, MenZa might even send them to you directly...
[08:06] <MenZa> Sure, why not?
[08:06] <MenZa> menza@menza.org
[08:06] <MitchM> :-)
[08:06] <MenZa> address, quantity
[08:06] <jenda> But since I already bought them, you should pay _meee_ :)
[08:06] <MitchM> :-P
[08:06] <jenda> MenZa: how many do you have left?
[08:06] <MenZa> jenda: most of them
[08:06] <MitchM> how much?
[08:06] <MitchM> are they the larger 2x3 stickers?
[08:06] <MenZa> Handle payment with jenda, I'll just send them
[08:07] <MenZa> I forgot the dimensions.
[08:07] <MitchM> or the same size as the ones you sent me jenda?
[08:07] <MitchM> hm, k.
[08:07] <jenda> I already have about 110 preordered here, but the rest, you can send to MitchM :-D
[08:08] <MitchM> how much for 50?
[08:08] <jenda> Let's see.
[08:08] <jenda> MenZa: You'd prolly have 250 left, right?
[08:08] <MenZa> jenda: 280, rather
[08:08] <MenZa> something like that
[08:08] <jenda> ok
[08:09] <jenda> I payed you $25 for the lot
[08:09] <MitchM> 5$?
[08:09] <MitchM> 10$?
[08:09] <MenZa> jenda: I'll handle shipment and stuff on this one; you just accept payment :)
[08:10] <jenda> MitchM: that gives me less than $5
[08:10] <MitchM> ?
[08:10] <jenda> MenZa: I'll paypal you a dollar for the shipping?
[08:10] <MenZa> jenda: nevermind me :)
[08:10] <MenZa> jenda: I have a ton of stamps
[08:10] <jenda> 4.464285714
[08:10] <jenda> MitchM: that's the price for you ;)
[08:10] <MitchM> lmao...
[08:11] <jenda> MenZa: I'll invite you for a beer once you're in Prague.
[08:11] <MitchM> I _will_ send you that much so watch it :-)
[08:11] <MenZa> No beers.
[08:11] <MenZa> A coke will do though :)
[08:11] <jenda> darn
[08:11] <jenda> I'll invite you for a _coke_ then.
[08:11] <MitchM> coke and rum?
[08:11] <MenZa> I don't mind beer myself, but my teachers are a bit strict when it comes to that.
[08:11] <MitchM> :-)
[08:12] <jenda> MitchM: psht!
[08:12] <jenda> he shouldn't have known...
[08:12] <jenda> MitchM: send me $5 and it'll pay for the coke too.
[08:12] <jenda> :-D
[08:12] <MenZa> lol
[08:12] <jenda> well, half the coke :-D
[08:13] <MitchM> lol.
[08:13] <jenda> Err, just so you know before you order, they're different
[08:13] <MitchM> so I understand
[08:13] <MitchM> larger too
[08:13] <MitchM> ?
[08:13] <jenda> lemme link
[08:13] <MitchM> affirm
[08:14] <jenda> http://flickr.com/photos/menza/190242006/
[08:14] <MenZa> no, small.
[08:14] <MitchM> =)
[08:14] <MenZa> about the size of your average 'Designed for WinXP' sticker.
[08:14] <MitchM> oh sweet.
[08:14] <MitchM> I like those _a lot_
[08:14] <MenZa> Why thank you
[08:14] <MenZa> :D
[08:15] <MitchM> larger sticker top and right included?
[08:15] <MitchM> or just the smaller?
[08:16] <jenda> ust the little :)
[08:16] <jenda> or... MenZa?
[08:16] <MenZa> I can include a large one, if jenda won't mind
[08:16] <MenZa> I've packed those for him, but sure
[08:17] <MenZa> jenda: ALL Ubuntu prints I have :)
[08:17] <jenda> that's cool ;)
[08:17] <MitchM> oh yes... please include one or two :-D
[08:17] <MitchM> unless you have to unpack
[08:17] <MitchM> dont bother
[08:17] <MenZa> not unpack.
[08:17] <MenZa> I'll include a few goodies.
[08:17] <MitchM> :-)
[08:17] <jenda> Make that $5.05, then, MitchM. Sorry, business is business.
[08:18] <MitchM> lol.
[08:18] <MenZa> :D
[08:18] <MitchM> lmao.
[08:18] <MitchM> your terrible.
[08:18] <MitchM> after the Oddles of money I sent you last time...
[08:18] <MitchM> :-P
[08:19] <jenda> exactly - you've prepaid premium customer service for a lifetime - plus you offered to host the site. I can't possibly hope to make a profit on you :-D
[08:19] <MitchM> lol.
[08:20] <jenda> Besides, I'll have to withdraw my savings to pay for the next batch or posters anyway, so a buck or two doesn't make a difference.
[08:20] <MitchM> hopefully your DNS for your domain functions better than elkbuntu's
[08:20] <MitchM> that's going to take a few days to clear up I think....
[08:21] <jenda> aaand you're hosting the counter too?
[08:21] <MitchM> yup.
[08:21] <MitchM> but it _is_ a mess right now :-)
[08:22] <MitchM> instead of pointing DNS right to my server... there are META refreshes that repoint to 64.187.64.115/ubuntucounter.org
[08:22] <MitchM> so images are not working etc etc
[08:22] <MitchM> so on and so forth
[08:22] <MitchM> no fault of melissa's
[08:24] <jenda> wow, that sounds bad.
[08:24] <jenda> In any case, you should be getting stickers for free :)
[08:24] <MitchM> woo hoo..
[08:24] <MitchM> i'll send you money latter today.
[08:24] <jenda> cool
[08:24] <MitchM> off to do more work stuff
[08:25] <jenda> BTW, the difference between my approach to money before and now is that before I wasn't yet sure that my expenses will be covered. Now all I get is already extra, and will be used for batch #2 or teh posters (whichever comes first)
[08:26] <MitchM> :-)
[08:28] <jenda> It's funny how people tend to respond messages even minutes after they 'left'...
[08:29] <XiXaQ> Listen, I have a great idea -- I think.
[08:30] <jenda> Hello XiXaQ
[08:30] <XiXaQ> there are some requirements which would have to be overcome, but I think it should be possible.
[08:30] <MenZa> 50, MitchM?!
[08:31] <jenda> MenZa: He's away, remember?
[08:32] <MenZa> That's a big request, 50 stickers.
[08:32] <jenda> MenZa: I've sent 3 packs of 100 :)
[08:32] <MenZa> nice
[08:32] <MenZa> so 50 is fine with you?
[08:33] <jenda> with me? sure :)
[08:33] <XiXaQ> we make a video. It starts with a black screen with Bobby McFerrin's Don't worry, be happy. Then some white text appears, maybe something like, Alexandria was burnt to the grownd, let's not make the same mistake twice. Then we show some people dancing to the rythm of the music, holding hands in a circle like in the Ubuntu logo.
[08:34] <XiXaQ> then the Camera views it from the side, then rises up until it's directly over the people dancing. In the middle is the Ubuntu logo.. Ubuntu -- Don't worry.
[08:34] <jenda> We can't use "Don't worry" because, it's copyrighted... unless we go the same way as stealthisfilm.com
[08:35] <XiXaQ> yes, but it's McFerrins song. I'm almost certain he would support the filosophy.
[08:35] <MenZa> jenda: alright, I'm gonna start packing them
[08:35] <jenda> well, you can try - I'm not sure it's him who decides.
[08:35] <jenda> MenZa: thanks. You got the coke right here.
[08:36] <XiXaQ> jenda, read up on your history :) It was a grand library in the old world that contained all the knowledge in the world. It was burned by conquerors. One of the sadest days in human history.
[08:36] <jenda> XiXaQ: I know _that_, but what does it have to do with Ubuntu?
[08:37] <jenda> (btw, join ##history ;) )
[08:37] <jenda> It's my channel
[08:38] <XiXaQ> jenda, the first thing you have to have if you're trying to assemble knowledge and culture, is communication. What is Ubuntu if not a battle for freedom of mind, art, culture and speech?
[08:38] <jenda> That's quite close to an aspect of what Ubuntu is.
[08:38] <MenZa> jenda: this stack is becoming ridiculously small; I'm printing a bunch more for you--free of charge.
[08:38] <jenda> OMG
[08:38] <jenda> Really?
[08:38] <MenZa> yeah
[08:39] <MenZa> a few hundred more
[08:39] <MenZa> you deserve them :)
[08:39] <jenda> hmm... appreciated, very. I will sell them, and use the cash to fund the posters.
[08:39] <MenZa> yup
[08:39] <MenZa> I don't want you to fuck up all your savings
[08:39] <XiXaQ> no response to my grandiose idea? :)
[08:39] <jenda> Hehe, I still believe I'll gain it all back, MenZa :-)
[08:40] <MenZa> I'm shipping MitchM a FSM bumpersticker ;)
[08:40] <jenda> :)
[08:40] <jenda> XiXaQ: I'm still thinking...
[08:40] <jenda> umm...
[08:40] <jenda> The idea seems quite good. But:
[08:40] <XiXaQ> I wish I could some you my vision. :)
[08:40] <jenda> Who will make the video? How?
[08:41] <XiXaQ> it may not be so hard.
[08:41] <jenda> johnlittle: you might be a more appropriate person to answer this
[08:42] <jenda> XiXaQ: johnlittle runs ubuntuvideo.com . He will even reward $100 to the person who creates the best Ubuntu video. If that's still up...
[08:42] <XiXaQ> jenda, do you remember which famous actor played in the video? I can see his face before me, but I cannot remember his name. He played in a movie which name I also cannot remember, but where he was a funny doctor healing patients with humour.
[08:43] <jenda> XiXaQ: wait... which video?
[08:43] <XiXaQ> jenda, don't worry, be happy.
[08:43] <XiXaQ> he's a friend of McFerrin'
[08:43] <jenda> Aha - I don't remember, as i never knew.
[08:43] <jenda> Wikipedia is a good bet.
[08:43] <XiXaQ> I don't think they'll list mcFerrins friends, but I'll give it a go.
[08:43] <MenZa> was wondering jenda
[08:44] <MenZa> Have I actually sent you any stickers before, so you know what they're like?
[08:44] <jenda> Please, go on wondering, I don't mind ;)
[08:44] <jenda> hehe
[08:44] <jenda> No, you haven't.
[08:44] <jenda> I have no clue.
[08:44] <MenZa> Hand me your address, I'll send a few samples :D
[08:46] <XiXaQ> listen, the actor I'm talking about also played in a movie where he pretended to be a woman in order to socialise with his children.... Doesn't anyone know who I'm talking about? He's _famous_.
[08:47] <Burgundavia> ha! Linspire was caught trying to rig the DistroWatch results by setting their browser homepage to the Freespire page at Distrowatch
[08:47] <jenda> @lart Linspire
[08:47] <MitchM> ooh nice!
[08:48] <Burgundavia> http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?t=1629
[08:48] <jenda> MitchM: you're supposed to be away... ;)
[08:48] <Burgundavia> apparently it was a "mistake"
[08:48] <MitchM> i know =)... i am.
[08:48] <jenda> It's funny how Linspire was first ditched by MS, not allowed to call itself Lindows, and then by Linus, not allowed to be called Linux :)
[08:48] <MenZa> ...this calls for double postage ;)
[08:49] <Burgundavia> they still advertise as "the worlds easiest Desktop linux"
[08:49] <jenda> Burgundavia: don't tell me you read their forum regularly....
[08:49] <jenda> ...please.
[08:49] <Burgundavia> no, the link was on Distrowatch
[08:49] <jenda> whew
[08:50] <Flannel> XiXaQ: robin Williams
[08:51] <XiXaQ> thanks. :)
[08:52] <jenda> Ah, Robin Williams... I was once (May 24) browsing the deaths on 25 May in Wikipedia... and he was written down for 2006. Corrected the vandalism, but watched the news ;)
[08:53] <XiXaQ> Grandiose Ubuntu Day, or GUD for short. :)
[08:54] <XiXaQ> oh, that doesn't mean anything to you, does it? :) In norwegian, that means GOD.
[08:56] <jenda> XiXaQ: aha ;)
[08:56] <jenda> Reminds me of Ubuntu Christian edition
[08:56] <jenda> apt-get install gnuchrist
[08:56] <jenda> Permission denied
[08:57] <jenda> OTOH, I suppose the distro is as useful as many people use it.
[08:59] <MenZa> MitchM: care to drop jenda a few more bucks? Postage was a lot more than I expected, but at least your letter's secure and rather bulgy.
[09:00] <jenda> ooh
[09:00] <jenda> MenZa: how much was it? (you can PM, if you wish)
[09:00] <MenZa> $4,5 roughly
[09:02] <XiXaQ> do not assosiate Ubuntu with any particular religion. That's, to me at least, Ubuntu Blasphemy.
[09:02] <jenda> excuse me for a second...
[09:18] <XiXaQ> what? What are these weird hostmasks?
[09:19] <MenZa> lol jenda
[09:19] <jenda> XiXaQ: they are ubuntu member hostmask. The banning was just a play between ompaul and me ;)
[09:20] <XiXaQ> *!*@ubuntu/member/ompaul!##windows <-- That is not a normal IRC hostmask.
[09:20] <ompaul> he tought he could forward me
[09:20] <ompaul> I am unforwardable
[09:20] <ompaul> :)
[09:20] <XiXaQ> forward!?
[09:20] <ompaul> XiXaQ, the joke is me in windows ...
[09:21] <XiXaQ> but is # even allowed in a host?
[09:21] <ompaul> you can remove a user from here to another channel as long as that channel is in use
[09:21] <jenda> XiXaQ: that's not part of the hostmask, it's part of the ban command.
[09:22] <ompaul> the ! indicates a forward - the ##windows is where he tried to send me
[09:22] <jenda> If I did that to a 'normal' mortal, they would end up in ##windows instead ;)
[09:22] <XiXaQ> this is a freenode makeup?
[09:22] <ompaul> jenda, I am human :p just a little different :)
[09:22] <ompaul> XiXaQ, it is a freenode tool
[09:23] <XiXaQ> not spesified in any protocol?
[09:23] <TomWitko_> Hello all
[09:24] <ompaul> XiXaQ, the full list of what you can do are on www.freenode.net - it is available to anyone to read up and use
[09:24] <ompaul> TomWitko_, hi there
[09:24] <XiXaQ> ompaul, but it's not an official extension to the IRC protocol, is it?
[09:25] <ompaul> I don't know it is just an arguement that is passed to the ban so as for irc and protocols I have no idea (I never bothered to research them)
[09:25] <TomWitko_> He he it took me a day and a half to get Cxhat irc to connect to the chat
[09:25] <TomWitko_> Found out if you enter irc.freenode.net that it tryes to connect to newserver/number
[09:26] <XiXaQ> heh, try to dns "ubuntu/member/ompaul"
[09:26] <TomWitko_> anyways had to edit the irc.freenode.net entry to change it to irc.freenode.net
[09:27] <ompaul> XiXaQ, stops ddos
[09:27] <ompaul> on people
[09:27] <ompaul> useful stuff
[09:28] <ompaul> anyway this is all offtopic to marketing join us in #ubuntu-offtopic for the offtopic discussions and general playground
[09:28] <ompaul> for want of a set of words that define that place
[09:29] <XiXaQ> ... Haven't seen anything on-topic here yet. :)
[09:29] <ompaul> hehe
[09:29] <ompaul> you missed last night as we rushed UWN out the door
[09:29] <XiXaQ> please expand UWN?
[09:29] <ompaul> Ubuntu Weekly News
[09:30] <TomWitko_> Anyways I logged on to possibly braindump on an idea for a 6.06 LTS long term magazine with a install CD
[09:30] <XiXaQ> oh.. Where do I find that?
[09:30] <jenda> TomWitko_: the best way to do such a thing is post to the mailing list.
[09:30] <TomWitko_> k
[09:31] <jenda> Here you'll just run into a bunch of overtired marketeers ;)
[09:31] <ompaul> XiXaQ, I will have a url in a moment (I never remember it)
[09:31] <ompaul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue12
[09:31] <XiXaQ> oh, I love to make up phrases. There are alot of things I have yet to discover, though I have already discovered enough -- Ubuntu
[09:32] <TomWitko_> is the mai dump still ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com
[09:32] <ompaul> Burgundavia, the wiki is behaving badly are those who should be aware of it - it is dog slow
[09:32] <jenda> TomWitko_: yep
[09:32] <TomWitko_> even the forum is suffering today
[09:32] <Burgundavia> yes, noticed that
[09:33] <ompaul> sudo make me a sandwich
[09:33] <ompaul> it is just brilliant
[09:33] <XiXaQ> sudo is brilliant. no wonder MS wanted it.
[09:34] <Burgundavia> noticed Freespire does sudo
[09:34] <Burgundavia> by they do sudo without a password
[09:34] <ompaul> Burgundavia, like a live cd?
[09:34] <Burgundavia> no, on installed desktops
[09:34] <jenda> whoa
[09:34] <jenda> (but _like_ the Ubuntu liveCD)
[09:34] <ompaul> Burgundavia, have they stopped user 1 from running as root?
[09:35] <jenda> BTW, I think that fact isn't well enough documented. I didn't know till dapper :-D
[09:35] <Burgundavia> yes, by replacing it with this sudo stuff
[09:35] <Burgundavia> not much better, tbh
[09:35] <ompaul> is gobby running?
[09:35] <jenda> That sounds very insecure to me...
[09:35] <jenda> (but OT)
[09:36] <Burgundavia> my gobby session? no, we are currently editing on the wiki
[09:36] <jenda> (OK, not OT anymore if you want to UWN-ize it)
[09:36] <XiXaQ> is there any installation remote assistance group?
[09:36] <ompaul> okay
[09:36] <ompaul> ?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> gobby stuff is only for sprints
[09:36] <ompaul> XiXaQ, that question flew over my head into a wall
[09:37] <XiXaQ> ompaul, whenever anyone tries to install Ubuntu, there should be experts to help them. There will be alot of first installs there.
[09:37] <ompaul> #ubuntu
[09:37] <XiXaQ> no... Way to crowded.
[09:37] <ompaul> #ubuntu-classroom if someone is really stuck in #ubuntu
[09:38] <XiXaQ> yes, but that's not right either.
[09:38] <ompaul> XiXaQ, what are you actually looking for?
[09:39] <ompaul> XiXaQ, first install is 4 or 5 clicks and it is done
[09:39] <ompaul> enter very little data and bing
[09:39] <ompaul> o
[09:39] <XiXaQ> You put the cd in the tray, reboot the computer, press the Install icon.. If the computer is connected to the internet, display a Request Help button. There is an IRC channel with dedicated helpers regarding the installation process. The user types a question, a helper responds.
[09:40] <Burgundavia> interesting idea
[09:40] <Burgundavia> I like it
[09:40] <jenda> ompaul: actually, I think we should break #ubuntu up into sections too
[09:40] <ompaul> jenda, won't work
[09:40] <jenda> ompaul: why?
[09:41] <ompaul> because people will not rate themselves accurately
[09:41] <XiXaQ> ompaul, please elaborate.
[09:41] <jenda> aha...
[09:41] <ompaul> and I have to ask quesitons as much as some new users now and again
[09:41] <jenda> ompaul: have you seen the !es, !fr, !de factoids?
[09:41] <ompaul> how do you spell question
[09:41] <jenda> that way ;)
[09:41] <ompaul> jenda, I am responsible for !il !sa !cn and a few others
[09:42] <XiXaQ> We should have our own servers. With different channels for different topics. Having _one_ channel for thousands of people just doesn't cut it.
[09:42] <jenda> of course
[09:42] <ompaul> XiXaQ, we have about 164 channels on this server
[09:43] <jenda> 'about' ;)
[09:43] <XiXaQ> when you join Ubuntu, if only running the cd as a demo, you should be welcomed by serviceminded people.
[09:43] <ompaul> jenda, + or - 10
[09:43] <jenda> ok.
[09:43] <mindspin> XiXaQ: if you open konversation for example, the live cd leads you here
[09:44] <mindspin> It could be a benefit if its mentioned on the desktop/startpage/example section
[09:44] <ompaul> XiXaQ, in a volenteer community someone with a high level of experience would burn out very quickly - beginner questions are hardest - best if there was a "top twenty" web page on page one
[09:44] <XiXaQ> The avarage user should be able to connect to IRC, join the main channel, ask a reasonable question and parse the solution. However, more and more people aren't accustomed to IRC, and they aren't used to channels with alot of activity.
[09:44] <ompaul> XiXaQ, I concur, however, the issue is this
[09:45] <ompaul> I choose my questions and people I help
[09:45] <ompaul> I tend to do a couple of low level ones and a few really nasty ones
[09:45] <ompaul> I need a challenge
[09:45] <XiXaQ> ompaul, I have been an operator in several mIRC help channels when I was younger. Do you think we got the same questions over and over? Yes, we did. But that didn't matter. We knew why we were there. Ubuntu should inspire even more effort.
[09:46] <ompaul> hehe
[09:46] <Flannel> XiXaQ: we have factoids for most of those questions, I don't see why one main channel is a problem
[09:46] <ompaul> back in a moment - I really have to take care of something here
[09:46] <XiXaQ> #mIRC: "<newbie> How do I download crack for windows xx?"
[09:47] <ompaul> you don't use crack it is addictive we keep that for beta software, please look here !better-way
[09:48] <XiXaQ> Flannel, factoids? Are we Ubuntu for the semi-advanced computer user, or Ubuntu for Human Beings? We cannot assume anything.
[09:48] <Flannel> XiXaQ: what?
[09:48] <XiXaQ> ompaul, it was a mIRC channel... :) There were all kinds of questions. Very few were related to mIRc.
[09:48] <Flannel> XiXaQ: when ubotu messages you and gives you, in english, a sentence with a description and a link... how is that not intuitive?
[09:50] <XiXaQ> Flannel, you assume too much.
[09:50] <Flannel> XiXaQ: I assume that the people can read... that's about it.
[09:50] <Flannel> Oh, and they have a webbrowser
[09:51] <mindspin> and btw an  working internet connection...
[09:51] <Flannel> They're on IRC, that's a safe assumption ;)
[09:51] <XiXaQ> well, I don't think it's a good solution. Hmm. It's a good solution for people like me. For people like my older brother, it's not.
[09:51] <ompaul> XiXaQ, I have been on irc helping for the last 12 years or so
[09:52] <Flannel> XiXaQ: What makes you think its not a good solution?  any specifics? recommendations?
[09:53] <XiXaQ> ompaul, then you know that a newbie isn't always able to understand buisy irc addressing.
[09:53] <Flannel> XiXaQ: ubotu queries you with it
[09:53] <XiXaQ> yes. A simple IRC GUI specially designed as a Welcome To Ubuntu solution. There are two kinds of users, helpers and "customers".
[09:54] <XiXaQ> Flannel, listen. I understand what you're saying. I just don't think that a newbie needs to talk to a robot.
[09:55] <XiXaQ> We could throw the book at newbies, like Microsoft does. Or we could be there when the user boots, greeting him/her, answering questions, and generally being there.
[09:55] <ompaul> XiXaQ, the thing is they can take one step at a time instruction
[09:56] <XiXaQ> yes, they can. MS also offers that.
[09:56] <ompaul> special effort goes into making sure that instructions are easy to follow
[09:56] <XiXaQ> yes, yes.
[09:57] <ompaul> and it seems to be working
Welcome to Ubuntu</h1></body>
[09:57] <XiXaQ> ugh. "seems to be working, so no need to be innovative"?
[09:58] <Flannel> XiXaQ: If its not broken, don't fix it.
[09:58] <ompaul> XiXaQ, (A) the bot can't send you a message
[09:58] <ompaul> (B) I wanted it to send you one
[09:58] <ompaul> Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues
[09:58] <ompaul> that is what I wanted to point you to and say as we do
[09:58] <XiXaQ> you know when you enter a bar and the bartender comes round and shakes your hand, asking "how are you?"...
[09:59] <ompaul> no
[09:59] <ompaul> wrong culture
[09:59] <XiXaQ> I do. It makes a world of difference.
[09:59] <XiXaQ> Ubuntu isn't presented in black polished chrome -- but we're here for you.
[10:02] <ompaul> XiXaQ, my personal biggest fear with something like that is the size and committment your looking for from people
[10:02] <XiXaQ> does anyone know how many new users there are every day?
[10:03] <ompaul> we may see one or two in irc (remember the level of computer knowledge you need to join irc)
[10:03] <ompaul> and I don't mean click on something
[10:03] <ompaul> mid install
[10:03] <XiXaQ> right... There are a lot of things we can do in order to make the first impression better.
[10:04] <ompaul> write them up - put it together as a full proposal - with the use cases and it can be looked at
[10:05] <XiXaQ> first thing is to split the Ubuntu channel up.
[10:05] <Flannel> XiXaQ: what would that accomplish?
[10:05] <ompaul> who goes where?
[10:05] <ompaul> what do you call this new channel?
[10:06] <ompaul> does flannel stay in the existing one, go to the new one or live in both?
[10:07] <ompaul> I really don't see the value in it
[10:07] <XiXaQ> A new user tries Ubuntu. He discovers things. What he doesn't know, the welcome group/ first line support tells him. After a while, he feels abit familiar with the system. A new user joins. The first new user can answer his question. He is useful. The more experienced users gives the first new user compliments.. ...
[10:07] <ompaul> forget about the new user, where are the staff for this channel?
[10:08] <ompaul> seriously
[10:08] <XiXaQ> changing all of the time. First line support becomes second line support when the helper gains enough experience.
[10:08] <Flannel> hold on.  wait.  XiXaQ, you seem to be suggesting the exact same channel structure that is currently in place
[10:08] <ompaul> this is a distributed network of support that is global already
[10:09] <XiXaQ> except I'm proposing more then one entry point.
[10:09] <ompaul> well what is or are these points?
[10:09] <Flannel> XiXaQ: Where did you propose that?  and, what on earth does that mean?
[10:09] <XiXaQ> are you all familiar with windows control panel?
[10:10] <Flannel> sure
[10:10] <ompaul> no, ain't used that software for years
[10:10] <Flannel> ompaul: think of it like the system menu, except in a window instad of a menu
[10:10] <Flannel> ompaul: system > administration, even
[10:10] <ompaul> eyap
[10:10] <ompaul> yeap
[10:11] <XiXaQ> the problem, as I see it, is that specially new users get frustrated by the fact that #Ubuntu is so large.. There may be hundreds of question in all categories..
[10:12] <XiXaQ> and all levels.
[10:12] <ompaul> and we manage that
[10:12] <Flannel> XiXaQ: thats because Ubuntu is complicated.  What are you proposing as the solution?
[10:12] <XiXaQ> newbie users act as newbie helpers to even more newbie users.
[10:12] <ompaul> that is how it is atm
[10:13] <XiXaQ> hmm. Yes, I'm obviously not able to visualise.
[10:14] <Flannel> XiXaQ: A long, long time ago.  I was a new user, in #ubuntu.  I had a few questions, but I already knew some other stuff
[10:14] <Flannel> XiXaQ: After I got my questions answered, I stuck around.  I helped people with those questions, and the stuff I already knew.
[10:14] <Flannel> That, as far as I can tell, is exactly what you're proposing
[10:14] <ompaul> XiXaQ, the new user does not have access to the knowledgebase that longer term users have if you split them up into groups of expertise you do this - you force them to naivigate through a maze of channels
[10:15] <ompaul> to get to someone with the kb that is suitable
[10:15] <Flannel> the blind leading the blind
[10:15] <ompaul> and introducing automatix and the like
[10:15] <XiXaQ> you're missing the point. The point is giving the best helpers access to the best higher level helpers.
[10:15] <XiXaQ> brb
[10:15] <Flannel> XiXaQ: what?  so, it's tiered?  You have to be 'in' to get real help?
[10:16] <Flannel> Its a big pyramid scheme of support!
[10:18] <ompaul> Flannel, with seveas sitting on the top and crimsun doing audio on the #ubuntu-audio and an hours of business sign outside :-)
[10:19] <Flannel> ompaul: heh, we'll have new users rounding up false usernames to come in, and ask false questions, so they can get their 'helper points' up, to advance to the next level ;)
[10:19] <ompaul> XiXaQ, I do not see your scheme as being able to provide it, you have to think 24/7/365 about 50 or 60 main helpers in when they can, burnout
[10:19] <ompaul> Flannel, haha
[10:19] <Flannel> Tech Support the MMORPG!
[10:20] <ompaul> XiXaQ, let me explain how we came to open the channel #ubuntu+1
[10:20] <ompaul> it might help you inform some additional decisions
[10:20] <Flannel> or, -xgl
[10:21] <ompaul> #ubuntu is for supporting the stable release
[10:21] <ompaul> as dapper came on the seen we were saying our software (breezy) is stable
[10:21] <ompaul> this was true at the time
[10:21] <XiXaQ> hmm. I don't know what the rate is globally, but I think in norway, about one promille joins #Ubuntu and one per ten of those join the norwegian channel. That's not too many.
[10:22] <ompaul> anyway we would be saying this
[10:22] <ompaul> and then someone would say program X is broken
[10:22] <ompaul> and up querying we would find they were using dapper
[10:22] <ompaul> so we developed a channel to manage "beta" software
[10:23] <ompaul> the reason for +1 is that it is always the next release
[10:23] <Flannel> XiXaQ: They only have to join the norwegian channel if they don't want to/know how to speak eglish.  Just because theyre from norway, doens't mean theyre relegated to language specific channels
[10:23] <Flannel> XiXaQ: but, if they don't speak english, we *cant* help them in #ubuntu, because we don't know norwegian
[10:23] <ompaul> so when people would say X was broken we would get the idea that something was broken in the next version
[10:23] <ompaul> then we knew where to send them
[10:23] <XiXaQ> it would be a great benefit if #Ubuntu-no was the default channel for nowegian users.
[10:24] <XiXaQ> ompaul, I know this. This isn't related to what I'm talking about,.
[10:24] <ompaul> it is
[10:24] <XiXaQ> ok
[10:24] <XiXaQ> go on then.
[10:24] <ompaul> it is how we form channels at this stage
[10:24] <Flannel> XiXaQ: no it wouldnt.  You'd make norway have it's own support infastructure.  If one person knew how to do XXX and he was from America, norway users would be without that knowledge
[10:24] <ompaul> we see no reason to move more advanced out of there
[10:25] <XiXaQ> I read somewhere, that there is 3-6 million Ubuntu users. Why is there only about one thousand people in #Ubuntu?
[10:25] <ompaul> XiXaQ, you really should have this part of this debate with the ops in #ubuntu-ops - you will be given a one word answer there - no
[10:25] <ompaul> XiXaQ, most people can't even deal with this level of IRC
[10:25] <XiXaQ> thank you.
[10:26] <ompaul> not when first exposed to it
[10:26] <XiXaQ> are they to be ignored?
[10:26] <Flannel> XiXaQ: most people don't need support, or want to help support
[10:26] <Flannel> XiXaQ: When you were a windows user, did you join ##windows and help people?
[10:26] <Flannel> or, maybe not you.  All of the other windows users
[10:27] <XiXaQ> they don't want support, they don't want to support, is this #ubuntu-marketing? That's what I'm talking about. It should be way easier to be a Ubuntu helper.
[10:27] <XiXaQ> no, I joined #Windows95 on DALnet and help people, but I'm not a good example -- I've been using MS DOS since GEM.
[10:27] <XiXaQ> actually, since before GEM.
[10:27] <ompaul> XiXaQ, we have many methods of accessing the community, irc is one small part of it
[10:27] <ompaul> wiki is another
[10:28] <ompaul> forums, documentation in help.ubuntu.com is another
[10:28] <Flannel> XiXaQ: So, youre basically saying everyone should be support staff?  It's REALLY easy.  Join the wiki, join the forums, join irc.
[10:28] <XiXaQ> wiki also isn't very familiar to many people. I'd love it if everyone understood the concept, but that's not reality yet.
[10:29] <ompaul> we are not going to take on board a centralised control of the type you are talking about, it does not work with distributed projects
[10:30] <ompaul> and it is centralised layers of users
[10:30] <XiXaQ> it isn't easy. Join and register on freenode, join launchpad and register. Join ubuntu forums and register. Join the Wiki. Join the LoCo and register. Please read the nuffsaid manual. MSDN is more user friendly!
[10:30] <ompaul> that is if you want to participate
[10:30] <ompaul> of the whatever it is windows userbase
[10:31] <ompaul> how many use msdn?
[10:31] <XiXaQ> right. But an experienced user doesn't always understand why something is difficult to a beginner.
[10:31] <Flannel> XiXaQ: to obtain information, one needs not register, just browse.  Exactly like MSDN
[10:31] <ompaul> XiXaQ, I don't think you realise the size of what you are talking about
[10:32] <XiXaQ> I do. I know it's a great challenge. I don't mind challenges.
[10:33] <XiXaQ> it's fun to help beginners.
[10:33] <XiXaQ> it is a sport.
[10:33] <ompaul> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[10:33] <ompaul> the wiki is 12925 pages
[10:34] <ompaul> https://help.ubuntu.com/ makes for interesting reading
[10:34] <ompaul> this is all developed by input large and small already by hundreds if not thousands of users
[10:34] <XiXaQ> listen. People I work with hadn't even heard of Google before I introduced it to them. It doesn't make them bad salespeople, and it certainly doesn't make them idiots. They just haven't been exposed to the technologies yet.
[10:34] <ompaul> with a few core people
[10:35] <ompaul> driving it - it is now FLOSS works
[10:35] <Flannel> XiXaQ: the default browse page mentions ways to participate
[10:35] <XiXaQ> ompaul, excuse the language, but saying https://help.ubuntu.com/ makes for interesting reading to a beginner, is like saying RTFM.
[10:35] <ompaul> XiXaQ, yeap, and they will not move to Ubuntu until all their mates are using it
[10:35] <ompaul> I said it to you
[10:36] <ompaul> you are here espousing that we do not have any resources
[10:36] <XiXaQ> and you're right. It's much easier to read the manual than it is to read #Ubuntu.
[10:36] <ompaul> we have not got energy put into things that are productive
[10:36] <XiXaQ> please calm down... :=
[10:37] <XiXaQ> I'm only saying that after ten odd years as a salesman, I know that assuming to little is way better than assuming too much.
[10:37] <ompaul> you have not got a picture of the depth and broadness of this project
[10:37] <XiXaQ> you have not got a picture of the depth and broadness of my mind.
[10:38] <ompaul> okay try this one question
[10:39] <Flannel> XiXaQ: you still have yet to make a cohesive statement about how this whole thing would work.  I'm still not sure what you're talking about, except small tidbits
[10:39] <ompaul> in this layered irc "society - community" your are suggesting, where to those with the most experience go?
[10:41] <XiXaQ> all new users should be encouraged to help others. they should be provided with questions immediately - questions which they are able to answer. This creates enthusiasm. "I made Ubuntu better, even with my small amount of knowledge". Most will fall through, leaving the channel when they have their answers. Some will stick. Some will love being a helper. They should be invited to a deeper channel, with people more experienced than themselves.
[10:42] <ompaul> and that is what we have atm
[10:42] <XiXaQ> if they receive a question they cannot answer, they question that channel, learn and teach the new found knowledge.
[10:42] <ompaul> no here is what happens now
[10:42] <XiXaQ> how many percent of new users become helpers?
[10:42] <Flannel> XiXaQ: a good deal
[10:43] <XiXaQ> percent-wise.
[10:43] <XiXaQ> we do marketing here?
[10:43] <ompaul> and who looks after #ubuntu?
[10:43] <XiXaQ> listen, I'm not badmouthing #Ubuntu.
[10:44] <XiXaQ> I'm saying #Ubuntu is a too heavy traffic channel for a newbie to relate to.
[10:44] <ompaul> I did not suggest you were, what I am suggesting is that you want to split it you need to take it to the ops and I can tell you that you have not got an arguement for them
[10:45] <ompaul> you can suggest it in a spec but what you suggest is not the nature of irc
[10:45] <ompaul> the medium does not break down into those handy classifications so easy
[10:45] <XiXaQ> joining #Ubuntu should be about the same as joining #Linux then?
[10:46] <XiXaQ> they answer Ubuntu questions you know.
[10:46] <ompaul> I doubt it
[10:46] <ompaul> as in this
[10:46] <XiXaQ> the nature of IRC is not for millions of people to have one default channel.
[10:47] <XiXaQ> IRC is quite limited in that regard.
[10:47] <ompaul> the bot that provides the factoids has its kb based heavily on the design of ubuntu by those who develop it
[10:48] <ompaul> you will not get "do sudo -su or sudo bash" in there
[10:48] <ompaul> or if you do you will also get the right version of how to run your system smoothly
[10:48] <XiXaQ> in #Ubuntu
[10:48] <ompaul> yes
[10:48] <XiXaQ> wrong
[10:48] <XiXaQ> but that's not the point. The point is that #Ubuntu is too crowded.
[10:48] <ompaul> btw if you fall into #linux you are already a linux user or an irc user
[10:49] <ompaul> please provide me with where that is wrong
[10:49] <XiXaQ> or you are a Ubuntu user with a feeling that you're not being heard in the main channel.
[10:49] <ompaul> this is circular
[10:49] <XiXaQ> there have been alot of commands in #Ubuntu
[10:50] <ompaul> you have not answered the basic question - how is this "natural gravitation" of the hirarchy to be generated and managed?
[10:50] <XiXaQ> it is circular, because truth cannot be avoided. Much like Jesus reinvented Sokrates.
[10:51] <XiXaQ> why is this an argument? I'm here looking for answers to many of the answers that you make me answer. I don't claim to have all the solutions, I claim to see a problem that should be fixed if Ubuntu is to be User Friendly. That is Marketing, this is #Ubuntu-Marketing
[10:53] <XiXaQ> 886 Ubuntu users besides bots and myself. How many Ubuntu users are there? That percentage makes me wonder wether we should come up with a better solution..
[10:53] <ompaul> I said interface though a spec and at least attempt to solve the issues you throw up, how does this grading take place, who chooses who goes here there or anywhere?
[10:54] <XiXaQ> all good questions, would you mind thinking about a good answer?
[10:54] <ompaul> there is none
[10:54] <ompaul> I don't have one from my perspective as I have seen that channel operate with 1k users +
[10:54] <XiXaQ> well, then, we must conclude that Ubuntu is too large for using IRC as a communications central.
[10:54] <ompaul> it has mailing lists
[10:55] <ompaul> it has web
[10:55] <XiXaQ> yup. That's innovative.
[10:57] <XiXaQ> a crowd is dynamic. A crowd may shrink because it is too big.
[10:58] <XiXaQ> normal users doesn't read books in order to make their computers work.
[10:58] <ompaul> it has market share without classic marketing or using the gurrrilla marketing revolution methods, it is a classic FLOSS project - it grows because the classic line of "benefit" is percieved by users, as for problem solving this is one method but what about the people who do not need it and just use it as a tool ..
[10:59] <ompaul> that by the way is most users
[11:00] <XiXaQ> I sort of agree. In a few years, Ubuntu will be user friendly and maybe other distros have made the netsites use open formats so that Ubuntu users too won't feel the transition between Windows and Ubuntu as going back to the stoneage.
[11:00] <ompaul> if I was to write this arguement in some other domain, lets say cars - then you have car magazines, and car fairs, and classic car meet ups and so on
[11:01] <Burgundavia> XiXaQ: that is an old arguement and there is no point raising it
[11:01] <ompaul> which one is right for the user?
[11:01] <Burgundavia> it is also one which is mostly incorrect
[11:01] <ompaul> the one the user chooses
[11:01] <XiXaQ> how many users does MS have? How many users can #Ubuntu support? Is this difficult math?
[11:02] <XiXaQ> we should
[11:02] <Burgundavia> no, but the number of users who use #ubuntu is fairly small
[11:02] <XiXaQ> we should assume that all new Ubuntu users need communication. Is it wise to have one default channel?
[11:02] <XiXaQ> right.
[11:02] <XiXaQ> Why is it so small?
[11:02] <ompaul> ubuntu has about 6million installs by one guess
[11:02] <Burgundavia> do you have a concrete proposal to deal with it?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> because IRC is a geeky medium
[11:03] <ompaul> and irc is for those who like their internet a bit closer to the protocol
[11:03] <XiXaQ> IRC is a geeky medium and the only channel I know of where a new user can get help from a Human Bein.
[11:03] <XiXaQ> Being.
[11:03] <Burgundavia> do you have a concrete proposal?
[11:04] <Burgundavia> for non-real time, there is the mailing lists, the forums and LP support tickets
[11:04] <XiXaQ> mailing lists are an even worse alternative.
[11:05] <Burgundavia> please, I have been lurked and have failed to hear a concrete proposal
[11:05] <XiXaQ> well, I suggest we find out why there are millions of users and a few hundred people in the main channel.
[11:06] <XiXaQ> why it's so very difficult to get even Ubuntu users on DALnet to join #Ubuntu on Freenode.
[11:06] <ompaul> well they have choosen dalnet
[11:06] <XiXaQ> how can we use IRC as a means for newbies if even the more advanced users are reluctant to use it?
[11:06] <Burgundavia> again, think beyond IRC
[11:06] <ompaul> it is not the default it is their choice and right to do so
[11:06] <XiXaQ> well then. do we have a good helpers network on DALnet?
[11:07] <Burgundavia> solving the general issue of getting users help is not something that should be restricted to IRC
[11:07] <XiXaQ> Burgundavia, I couldn't agree more.
[11:08] <ompaul> well #ubuntu will not be going to dalnet in the near future that I can figure
[11:08] <XiXaQ> I'm still in -Marketing?
[11:08] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:09] <ompaul> as far as we know the answer to that is yes
[11:09] <XiXaQ> but we should stay here and wait?
[11:09] <ompaul> :)
[11:09] <ompaul> for ?>
[11:09] <XiXaQ> users to visit?
[11:11] <XiXaQ> to me, marketing is about making cold calls. It's about smoothing rough edges, making people respect the good so that the negative doesn't matter. IRC is probably the best way to start. There are alot of IRC networks. There are mIRC help channels on all networks I've ever been on.
[11:11] <XiXaQ> Why isn't there Ubuntu channels on every network?
[11:12] <ompaul> when you get ubuntu
[11:12] <ompaul> what network does it point you to?
[11:12] <ompaul> first start default?
[11:12] <XiXaQ> "when you get Ubuntu" <-- Get my point?
[11:13] <XiXaQ> There is a reason why I'm saying all thiese things in _this_ channel.
[11:13] <ompaul> irc
[11:13] <ompaul> is
[11:14] <ompaul> not the medium for this debate we already had it on the mailing list you can check the archives here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
[11:14] <XiXaQ> There are two halves of the marketing circle. We only have one, and not fully.
[11:16] <ompaul> I do go out and give talks I know others do that here
[11:16] <ompaul> I distribute disks like others
[11:16] <XiXaQ> the salesmans best friend and most feared enemy is the initial enthusiasm.
[11:17] <ompaul> I have been doing this for years
[11:17] <XiXaQ> me too. I've lost alot of good customers due to oversell.
[11:17] <ompaul> before ubuntu I did it with various other linux distributions and for the most of the last two years I have been comfortable here
[11:18] <XiXaQ> Ubuntu is overselling.
[11:18] <XiXaQ> either we must limit the expectations, or we must meet them.
[11:18] <ompaul> well you have undersold your existing proposal cos all I can see it doing it eating resources without providing a reasonable return on investment
[11:18] <XiXaQ> then I've undersold it.
[11:18] <ompaul> when I install ubuntu it stays installed
[11:19] <Burgundavia> XiXaQ: if we were spread across every network, we would have serious manpower issues
[11:19] <Burgundavia> ubuntu is on freenode
[11:19] <XiXaQ> like salesmen on a gas-station then?
[11:20] <Burgundavia> huh? you are making no sense and I fail to see your point
[11:20] <XiXaQ> "If the customers aren't here, they probably don't need us"
[11:20] <Burgundavia> if you are saying we should have a ubuntu channel on every server, there likely already is
[11:20] <Burgundavia> however, the official channels are here
[11:20] <Burgundavia> ubuntu != gas station
[11:20] <Burgundavia> for the record, there are 12 users in #ubuntu on oftc
[11:21] <XiXaQ> at least one channel on the largest networks, if only to help the most novice users and point the others here.
[11:22] <XiXaQ> we must have stability in the community as well.
[11:23] <XiXaQ> there were at one time more Ubuntu users in the general norwegian chat channel on DALnet than there were on #Ubuntu-no on freenode. Accomplishment?
[11:24] <XiXaQ> furthermore, none of those ever joined freenodes ubuntu channels.
[11:24] <ompaul> that is their choice
[11:25] <XiXaQ> heheh
[11:25] <ompaul> they have it and are allowed exercise it
[11:26] <XiXaQ> yes, but I'm a marketer. I've been in charge of many salesoffices. I've trained salesmen. "That's their choice" is _not_ marketing lingo.
[11:27] <Burgundavia> XiXaQ: please, I ask you again
[11:27] <XiXaQ> please do, Burgundavia.
[11:27] <Burgundavia> what exactly is your point and what exactly do you want to see happen?
[11:27] <Burgundavia> fwiw, I am also a salesman
[11:28] <XiXaQ> my point equals the name of the channel.
[11:28] <Burgundavia> that this is -marketing?
[11:28] <Burgundavia> yes, we talk about that in here
[11:29] <XiXaQ> we talk about it...? Marketing isn't about talking about it, you should know that. Marketing is about making it happen.
[11:30] <XiXaQ> I talk about it after work. If I talk about it during work, I get cut in salery,.
[11:30] <Burgundavia> yes, I realize that
[11:31] <Burgundavia> so what you want is thus: "Have official ubuntu channels on each and every major network"?
[11:36] <XiXaQ> that's not what I want. I want a great deal more. That's the first step. I want every new user to have a small group of semi-advanced helpers, and at least one of those to have access to more advanced users, and some of those to have access to very advanced users.
[11:36] <XiXaQ> but I want alot more than that too.
[11:36] <Burgundavia> right
[11:37] <Burgundavia> that is more an issue for the New User Network than us
[11:38] <XiXaQ> now that's constructive. I didn't know of that group.
[11:38] <XiXaQ> why?
[11:38] <Burgundavia> becuase they help new users
[11:38] <Burgundavia> we market ubuntu
[11:39] <XiXaQ> I meant, why didn't I know about the New User Network?
[11:39] <XiXaQ> I'm an IRC helper and a marketer.
[11:40] <ompaul> well join the channel
[11:40] <Burgundavia> because they were dormant for a while
[11:41] <ompaul> but be aware that it has its action point now -classroom
[11:41] <XiXaQ> I know about the -classroom.
[11:41] <ompaul> its major contribution is the classes it has started to run
[11:42] <XiXaQ> you would agree that marketing first of all is to let the market know what's there?
[11:42] <ompaul> I have been off writing a rebuttle of some of what you have said and where I think your failing at this juncture
[11:43] <Burgundavia> yes, but that has nothing todo with #ubuntu
[11:43] <XiXaQ> that's great.
[11:43] <Burgundavia> 95% of the users who hit that channel already use #ubuntu
[11:43] <Burgundavia> hence our job is mostly done
[11:43] <ompaul> XiXaQ, if you want to change what you see as failings in the "interface" to ubuntu you need to make the business case  to make a case here you must first define a specific problem problem and propose a either work around or a fix,  you have to find some way to express to people how to improve the process. If you fail to bring this to the table you are asking people to spend resource (i.e. their time) on something that they can't see as
[11:43] <ompaul> having a payback or direction they will not expend that resource on it. Also please take into consideration the geek value of IRC.
[11:43] <ompaul> Our interfaces are well defined in the participate link on the home page. Marketing here only allows us to brain storm and document the results of such a session, there is no budget, or crew to take it to the streets, if someone pops in we can equip them, however if someone is looking for presentation materials we can and have provided that for them also. That is how I see it.
[11:43] <XiXaQ> Burgundavia, "it has nothing to do with", or "does it have anything to do with"?
[11:43] <Burgundavia> sorry, I have to run
[11:43] <Burgundavia> need to be somewhere in 15 minutes
[11:43] <ompaul> Burgundavia, l8r
[11:44] <XiXaQ> Burgundavia, see you later.
[11:45] <XiXaQ> I still feel that if you want to create a community, the community must have time for it's new additions. I do not feel #Ubuntu has that to offer.
[11:45] <ompaul> every user there was new at some stage
[11:46] <XiXaQ> yes, it's a great channel if you want to see what someone doesn't know. It's not a good channel if you want to see what they _do_ know. That's more important.
[11:48] <XiXaQ> it's a good channel for "how do I"-questions.
[11:48] <ompaul> and that is its intent
[11:48] <XiXaQ> yes, I know.
[11:49] <XiXaQ> and that was a good idea for mIRC. Perhaps a good idea for Linux, if the questions were Linux related and not distribution-related.
[11:50] <ompaul> you have not so far defined the selection methods for these proposed metrics which have no clear way of being defined
[11:51] <XiXaQ> if it's possible on this network, to forward a user to another channel, then there should not be any difficulties in creating a bot which forwards new users to paralell channels. not help channels. Greeting channels.
[11:52] <ompaul> it is your idea, your not putting enough flesh on the bones to make even a passing crow be interested in picking at the idea
[11:53] <XiXaQ> and you're picking the bones for whatever flesh I put on it.
[11:53] <XiXaQ> you act as acid instead of ferment.
[11:53] <mindspin> ;-)
[11:54] <mindspin> advocatus diavolo
[11:54] <ompaul> as for the bot you propose that is a whole region of expert systems and decision support that is advanced beyond the level of payback to ubuntu it would offer
[11:54] <XiXaQ> if this is marketing, then this should be a place for vague ideas for others to pick up on.
[11:55] <ompaul> mindspin, moi?
[11:55] <ompaul> XiXaQ, it would be nice to get everyone on planet earth using some version of ubuntu
[11:55] <XiXaQ> ...if they come to us?
[11:55] <mindspin> yes opmpaul but those are necessary
[11:56] <ompaul> XiXaQ, is this the "classic" build it and they will come marketing plan?
[11:56] <mindspin> opmaul was a freudian...
[11:56] <ompaul> hehe
[11:56] <XiXaQ> any classic marketing plan is a bad one.
[11:57] <XiXaQ> I'm going to sleep. Rest assured, I'll be back.
[11:57] <ompaul> XiXaQ, enjoy
[11:57] <mindspin> btw. we have mayor elections here an one of the candidates want#s to talk with me about ubuntu
[11:57] <XiXaQ> oh, I will :)
[11:57] <ompaul> mindspin, party CDU SDP or Greens?
[11:57] <poningru> no way
[11:58] <mindspin> I#ll give him input for sure
[11:58] <poningru> where is this?
[11:58] <ompaul> poningru, he is in .de
[11:58] <poningru> ah ic
[11:58] <poningru> where in deutche?
[11:58] <mindspin> he was independent before and found shelter by the one man liberal fraction (FDP)
[11:58] <ompaul> hehe
[11:59] <mindspin> we have six (some say seven) canditates
[11:59] <mindspin> three of the are pub owners
[11:59] <mindspin> one was meter maid in the neighbour town
[11:59] <mindspin> and three serious ones
[12:00] <mindspin> another city wide known former pub owner declared today "that he is seriously considering to throw his hat into the ring
[12:01] <mindspin> But if I can convince him, it'll be in the  local papers for sure
[12:01] <ompaul> mindspin, give the others the same information :-)
[12:01] <ompaul> let there be no political bias :)
[12:01] <mindspin> sure
[12:02] <ompaul> ubuntu becomes the issue in your election hehe
[12:02] <ompaul> and then you stand for mayor
[12:03] <mindspin> just a side issue because they lack of themes to discuss, most important thing is that the city has no, zero, null. rien, nada, niente money
[12:03] <mindspin> so costs could become a point