[01:02] <nixternal> wow trappist i truthfully swore you were a member already
[01:02] <nixternal> this is in the bag...congrats!
[01:02] <trappist> hehe I thought so too for a while
[01:02] <trappist> thanks :)
[01:02] <trappist> just need mako I think
[01:02] <nixternal> he will +1 ya no problem
[01:03] <LaserJock> :-)
[01:07] <LaserJock> \o?
[01:07] <LaserJock> :(
[01:07] <LaserJock> \o/ rather
[01:07] <trappist> :)
[01:07] <trappist> woohoo!
[01:07] <trappist> now to get into -qa
[01:09] <nixternal> heh
[01:09] <nixternal> i have been waiting myself trappist
[01:09] <trappist> are you on the list?
[01:09] <nixternal> ya
[01:09] <trappist> I don't see you
[01:09] <trappist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[01:09] <nixternal> Richard Johnson
[01:09] <nixternal> oh
[01:09] <nixternal> hahah
[01:10] <nixternal> i mean -aq
[01:10] <nixternal> qa
[01:10] <nixternal> lol
[01:10] <trappist> oh :)
[01:11] <trappist> well I stayed late at work for the cc meeting, I'm gonna head home.  Thanks much for the kind words, nixternal and LaserJock 
[01:11] <nixternal> no prob..see ya in a bit
[07:27] <topa_> bhuvan: ping
[07:36] <bhuvan> topa_: pong
[03:02] <jjesse> morning
[03:04] <jono> hey jjesse 
[03:05] <jjesse> hiya jono :)
[03:36] <mdke> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555&q=crash
[03:39] <jsgotangco> hey
[03:42] <jjesse> hey back :)
[07:03] <jjesse> what's the address for the kubuntu release notes for edgy again/
[07:07] <Burgwork> jjesse, wiki or the short ones?
[07:25] <niKsternal> what time is the meeting?
[07:26] <niKsternal> clear
[07:26] <niKsternal> doh
[08:04] <jjesse> found it thanks thouh
[08:06] <lloydinho> huh? Meeting, anyone?
[08:09] <lloydinho> eh. Stupid summertime.
[08:20] <jjesse> i'm ready
[08:20] <jjesse> :)
[08:27] <niKsternal> im not
[08:27] <niKsternal> at i am presenting ubuntu and linux right now ;)
[08:35] <jjesse> so no mtg?
[08:35] <jjesse> or is my time off?
[08:59] <mdke> evening. meeting time, isn't it?
[09:03] <lloydinho> yes! Now it is meeting time!
[09:21] <mdke> so let's talk over some meeting issues in here
[09:21] <lloydinho> yes.
[09:21] <mdke> we don't have enough for a full meeting
[09:22] <mdke> but we can talk things through
[09:22] <mdke> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[09:22] <mdke> first agenda item is license policy, does anyone have any views on that?
[09:23] <mdke> I don't think the current license policy is doing us any favours, and I would like to move to a single cc-by-sa license
[09:23] <lloydinho> fair enough. 
[09:24] <mdke> jjesse: any views on this one?
[09:24] <lloydinho> will that require the approval of all the contributors so far?
[09:24] <jjesse> i don't have any issues w/ that
[09:24] <mdke> lloydinho: yes, in theory. In practice, it means asking for permission, and moving on if people don't complain
[09:25] <lloydinho> right.
[09:25] <mdke> jeff made the great point on that thread that in future we should get people to agree that the doc team can change the license in the future by consensus
[09:26] <lloydinho> mdke, that would be a wise thing to do in the long run.
[09:26] <lloydinho> yes.
[09:26] <mdke> the choice of license is the key thing to talk about, but on the ML cc-by-sa was the one each person mentioned
[09:27] <mdke> but the thread wasn't widely responded to :/
[09:27] <mdke> the forum uses that license, as does the official book, and potentially the wiki might use it, so it would make sense to take that
[09:29] <mdke> the next issue is whether to cite licenses in full in the guides or just to link to them. jjesse, lloydinho: any views on this one?
[09:30] <lloydinho> with a CC license, there wouldn't be a need to cite them in full.
[09:30] <lloydinho> or would there? Seriously, IANAL..
[09:31] <mdke> there isn't a need in any event
[09:31] <jjesse> mdke: i gues i'm not really a laywer or really concenered about the license to be honest...  
[09:31] <mdke> fair enough
[09:31] <jjesse> i guess whatever works best, CC lienses is fine w/ me
[09:32] <lloydinho> hey LaserJock, just in time! (or a little late, but no matter..)
[09:32] <LaserJock> doc meeting?
[09:32] <mdke> as long as the file with the license text is shipped, and linked to in the info section of the guides, then there is no problem from a legal point of view. And those licenses are really cumbersome as appendices
[09:32] <mdke> LaserJock: hiya, we are just chatting through some issues on the agenda
[09:32] <LaserJock> I just got to work from being at the dentist for  2 hrs
[09:32] <lloydinho> ouch
[09:33] <LaserJock> yeah, no fun
[09:33] <lloydinho> mdke, that sounds like a very decent solution.
[09:33] <mdke> ouch indeed. LaserJock, got any views on the first two agenda items? (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda)
[09:34] <LaserJock> licensing is a big pain in the butt! ;-)
[09:35] <mdke> that's true. Any more specific ones?
[09:35] <LaserJock> 1) I'm sort of feeling like the dual licensing thing isn't really working for us to well. It is great for downstream derivatives
[09:35] <LaserJock> but it sucks for us
[09:35] <jjesse> is the dual licenses causing the problem integrating w/ gnome or is there some other?
[09:35] <jjesse> i don't have that converstation in front of me
[09:35] <mdke> no, that's another
[09:36] <mdke> more fundamental ;)
[09:36] <LaserJock> well, grabing material from Wikipedia for instance
[09:36] <mdke> wikipedia grabbing is unlikely in any event though, because it's on gfdl
[09:37] <mdke> but ubuntu forums, ubuntu book grabbing would be good
[09:37] <jjesse> is the CC license easier to use in downstream/upstream?
[09:37] <LaserJock> well, but the point remains that it looks to me anyway, that any source we take from (including the wiki) needs to also be dual licensed
[09:37] <mdke> LaserJock: yes, that's right
[09:37] <mdke> jjesse: it would make it possible for us to use other cc-by-sa material in our docs
[09:37] <LaserJock> right now I would say that we legally can't use any of our own wiki material, which is very odd
[09:38] <mdke> well, that's because the wiki has no license right now, but that's another question :)
[09:38] <LaserJock> heh
[09:38] <LaserJock> what about the forums, they are cc-by-sa?
[09:39] <mdke> yes, I believe so
[09:40] <LaserJock> well, of course IANAL, but I kinda feel like just sticking to cc-by-sa (or cc-by even) would be a good idea
[09:40] <mdke> me too.
[09:40] <LaserJock> ok, that's number 1
[09:40] <mdke> any view on 2)?
[09:41] <LaserJock> 2)  I say links, it is totally dumb looking to have 10 pages of License on a 80 doc 
[09:41] <jjesse> is it approriate leggally?
[09:41] <jjesse> cause if it is i'm fine w/ it
[09:41] <LaserJock> I know with cc-by-sa a link is fine
[09:41] <mdke> yes, including a link is fine
[09:42] <mdke> we can ship an xml version and link to it locally
[09:42] <LaserJock> I didn't read through GFDL enough to say positively but I think it might be ok too
[09:42] <lloydinho> cool
[09:42] <mdke> how about 3?
[09:42] <LaserJock> as long as you can get the reader to the License material then I think you are fine
[09:43] <LaserJock> right, I'm all for it
[09:43] <jjesse> the only entities i usually refer to a doc #s
[09:43] <jjesse> version numbers sorry
[09:44] <LaserJock> but can we use entities within the .xml files themselves (like at the top) for translatable stuff?
[09:44] <mdke> no
[09:44] <LaserJock> ok, so how would we do &ubuntu; ?
[09:45] <mdke> by writing "Ubuntu"
[09:45] <mdke> and not using an entity
[09:45] <LaserJock> hmm
[09:45] <mdke> it's fewer letters, tbh ;)
[09:45] <LaserJock> I think that's a hit, but I think it is probably worth it
[09:45] <lloydinho> wouldn't that make it more tricky for derivatives wanting to use our documentation?
[09:45] <LaserJock> mdke: well, it isn't when you have to replace like 100 of them ;-)
[09:46] <mdke> find and replace...
[09:46] <LaserJock> lloydinho: I'm guessing that's what sed or replace is for
[09:46] <lloydinho> Yeh, I suppose so.
[09:46] <LaserJock> yeah, what mdke said ;-)
[09:47] <lloydinho> so agreed then?
[09:47] <LaserJock> honestly, with Python and shell scripting, etc. these kinds of things are pretty easily done
[09:47] <jjesse> +1 for me
[09:48] <LaserJock> I think the best use of entities are for number's an URLs
[09:48] <LaserJock> will URLs be translatable at all?
[09:48] <trappist> perl -pi -e 's/this/that/g' find . -name '*.xml'
[09:48] <trappist> perl -pi -e 's/this/that/g' `find . -name '*.xml'`
[09:48] <trappist> there
[09:48] <lloydinho> LaserJock, should URLs be translable?
[09:48] <LaserJock> I kinda wondered if some of the teams (for instance the brazil team) might put in localized urls
[09:49] <lloydinho> oh.
[09:49] <claude> yes, localized urls are important
[09:49] <LaserJock> is that a common practice?
[09:49] <lloydinho> hm. Well, most URLs point to the Ubuntu website which isn't translated at all.
[09:49] <mdke> claude: I'm not convinced they are frequently used, to be honest
[09:49] <mdke> (for translation)
[09:50] <LaserJock> for the Packaging Guide it isn't a big deal because non of the URLs have translated equivalents
[09:50] <claude> for example java download
[09:50] <LaserJock> stuff like LP and wiki.ubuntu.com
[09:50] <claude> en : http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp
[09:50] <claude> fr: http://java.com/fr/download/manual.jsp
[09:50] <mdke> claude: java is shipped with Ubuntu, we don't use that url
[09:50] <claude> it's in the desktop guide now
[09:50] <mdke> obviously, it's possible to localise urls, but I'm not sure it is actually done much with the urls we use
[09:51] <LaserJock> well, I think we maybe could add a point for authors to think about if an entity is translatable before they put it in
[09:51] <mdke> claude: erm, no it isn't
[09:51] <LaserJock> was it in the dapper desktop guide?
[09:52] <claude> i should maybe update my svn :-P
[09:52] <mdke> LaserJock: no
[09:52] <claude> programming.xml
[09:52] <LaserJock> anyway, I think you are totally right about the entity thing
[09:52] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk$ grep -r "java.com" *
[09:52] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk$
[09:52] <LaserJock> the most common thing is the version number
[09:53] <LaserJock> and we shouldn't need to redo translations for that
[09:53] <mdke> gah, wrong search
[09:53] <mdke> anyhow
[09:53] <nixternal> hehe
[09:53] <mdke> if we need to localise urls, we can work around that easily
[09:53] <LaserJock> we need to keep the translation load to things that really count
[09:55] <lloydinho> I think in any case it may still be too early to begin localizing urls.
[09:56] <mdke> how about issue 4?
[09:56] <lloydinho> There aren't very many complete translations of the documentation, much less the urls they contain.
[09:57] <lloydinho> I put that in there. 
[09:57] <jjesse> #4 working on the kubuntu docs side of things :)
[09:57] <jjesse> so just need to keep pushing
[09:57] <lloydinho> jjesse, good work!
[09:57] <mdke> I'm going on holiday on saturday
[09:57] <mdke> probably will be out of it for much of the rest of september
[09:58] <jjesse> i gotta get my key issue figured out so i stop sending patches and can start committing directly
[09:58] <jjesse> enjoy your holiday
[09:58] <mdke> before I go I'll try and tidy up anything I can think of that I haven't done yet. And if anyone needs me to do anything, lemme know asap
[09:58] <lloydinho> mdke: are you going to revert the desktop guide merge with the Gnome docs?
[09:58] <mdke> yes
[09:59] <lloydinho> how does the desktop guide look apart from that?
[09:59] <lloydinho> Are there any major gaps that we need to address?
[09:59] <mdke> it needs to be reviewed and checked for edgy. Also there is some modem bits missing and the printing chapter is incredibly thin
[10:00] <mdke> "there is some", uggghn
[10:00] <lloydinho> hm. Modems and printers are not exactly my strong point.
[10:00] <LaserJock> well, tbh docs have been on the back-burner for edgy for me, I hope to get some work done on the Packaging Guide though before the freeze
[10:00] <lloydinho> how about the front page - did we reach any conclusion about how it should look?
[10:01] <mdke> lloydinho: there are modem pages on the wiki if you want to dive into that
[10:01] <mdke> lloydinho: front page - no: we need to figure out what to call the desktop guide and the Gnome desktop guide so that they don't look confusing on the Front page
[10:02] <lloydinho> hm. I'd like to have a look at that, but I won't have time for it before monday.
[10:03] <lloydinho> mdke: How have you gone about editing the front page so far?
[10:03] <mdke> lloydinho: happy to leave you in charge of that :)
[10:04] <mdke> basically yelp creates its front page from scrollkeeper omf files, shipped with each document (see for example desktopguide.omf)
[10:04] <lloydinho> mdke, heh - thanks :-)
[10:04] <mdke> changing those files changes how they appear in the yelp table of contents
[10:05] <mdke> the order is controlled by some yelp magic, contributed by Don Scorgie, who you should grab for any technical help
[10:05] <lloydinho> cool. I've talked to Don a bit before, I'm sure he wouldn't mind lending a hand.
[10:06] <mdke> I'm sure he won't
[10:06] <mdke> cool, I ought to go now
[10:06] <mdke> I'll send a few mails chasing up these agenda items
[10:06] <lloydinho> cool. I hope everybody's psyched about getting these last things in place.
[10:07] <LaserJock> \o/
[10:07] <lloydinho> :-)
[10:07] <mdke> it's been a pretty lazy cycle
[10:07] <jjesse> agreed, hasn't been as hectic as dapper was for some reason
[10:07] <LaserJock> well, psycho busy for me but not in the doc department
[10:07] <lloydinho> yeh. Maybe we can get a bit of a last-minute-rush-mode going now... ;-) 
[10:08] <mdke> we'll have to concentrate on the next one :)
[10:08] <mdke> and try and rush everything into place for edgy
[10:08] <LaserJock> well, I really think the 4 month release cycle made a difference
[10:08] <LaserJock> that, and in dapper we had a  lot of new stuff
[10:08] <mdke> ok, good night, thanks guys
[10:08] <LaserJock> cya mdke, thanks
[10:09] <lloydinho> have a nice holiday, mdke.
[10:09] <mdke> thanks
[10:09] <lloydinho> good whatever-time-of-day to the rest of you. :-)
[10:09] <LaserJock> :-)
[10:15] <nixternal> jjesse: speaking of Kubuntu docs, have you heard anything from robotgeek on the KDG?
[10:25] <trappist> guys I'm going to shift my focus from bugs to docs to get as much proofreading done as possible.  what do you think is the ideal window for me to get as much new/modified content as possible without conflicting with freezes?
[10:27] <nixternal> tomorrow ;)
[10:27] <nixternal> we freeze around the 14th
[10:27] <nixternal> so...i have the about kubuntu and release notes rocking if you want to play with those
[10:27] <trappist> nixternal: and you don't expect a whole lot of activity between tomorrow and the 14th?
[10:27] <nixternal> they need some more work...especially the support parts
[10:28] <trappist> nixternal: I can start with those
[10:28] <nixternal> there is going to be a bunch of activity between now and the 14th, i was just having some fun with the "tomorrow" ;)
[10:29] <trappist> oh ok :)
[10:29] <nixternal> robotgeek was working on the KDG, but I see jjesse posted a patch to it recently...i know robotgeek wanted to split it up...but i dont' know now
[10:30] <jjesse> i didn't see any work so i just started :)
[10:30] <trappist> I guess what I'm looking for is the time where stuff is somewhat stable, but not yet frozen
[10:30] <nixternal> i should have done the same, but im not "in in" like that..so i didn't want to step on anyones toes
[10:31] <jjesse> nixternal: don't feel afraid to step on toes  "its easier to ask forgiveness then permission " 
[10:32] <nixternal> true..but at the same time, i don't want to chap someones ass. forgiving and forgetting is easier said then done ;)
[10:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: we're all friends here ;-)
[10:33] <LaserJock> trappist: I'm not sure we are exactly to the "stable but not frozen" state, we are more like a slushy
[10:33] <nixternal> lol
[10:34] <nixternal> ya, the "ice is to thin to walk on" stage
[10:34] <nixternal> a snow cone is more frozen
[10:36] <nixternal> jjesse: tomorrow, 4pm my time, 5pm your time, Kubuntu devel meeting
[10:36] <nixternal> only thing I have to offer is a proposed "Kubuntu on the Web" page like the "KDE on the Web" page currently in the KHC
[10:37] <nixternal> who..actually it is 5pm my time and 6pm your time
[10:37] <jjesse> yeah i know
[10:37] <nixternal> no i was the right the first time
[10:37] <nixternal> im a little e.tarded right now
[10:38] <nixternal> you will be driving home during the initial start...anything you think we should add to the agenda?
[10:38] <nixternal> i should be getting home by the time it starts
[10:42] <jjesse> well i'm trying to rescheudle around the mtg tomorrow
[10:53] <LaserJock> doh
[11:42] <mdke> nixternal: erm, that ubuntu-website bug you closed is still present
[12:12] <nixternal> is it?
[12:12] <nixternal> i thought it got fixed?