[12:07] <robertj_> seb128: I rather dislike panel-do-dads in general though
[12:31] <Kamion> Keybuk: so what's usplash doing with console-screen.sh?
[12:31] <Kamion> Keybuk: I ask because, err, I'm kind of superseding it
[12:32] <Keybuk> Kamion: it runs it to make sure that the console state is set (ie all the utf-8 stuff)
[12:32] <Keybuk> because that didn't work while usplash was running
[12:32] <Keybuk> probably because the script was buggy
[12:33] <sladen> echoing escape codes onto a vt in graphics mode cause corruption or somesuch
[12:34] <Kamion> ok, so console-setup should be able to do that too
[12:34] <Kamion> could you please check if setupcon is on $PATH, and if so call it instead?
[12:35] <Kamion> dear god I have a lot of patches to send to Anton once the code-to-a-deadline period has passed
[12:37] <mvo> console-screen.sh is going away? great
[12:37] <Kamion> it may not actually go away, but I'm just changing it now to exit 0 if setupcon is present
[12:37] <Kamion> because setupcon does the same job, and is called by a console-setup init script
[12:38] <bluefoxicy> AGHHELP
[12:38] <Kamion> well ... roughly the same job. I think a few edge cases may still be missing
[12:40] <Kamion> oh, hey, usplash is bzr-maintained, I can just do it myself
[12:42] <mjg59> Kamion: Feel free
[12:42] <mjg59> I'm trying to track down suspend regressions
[12:42] <Kamion> ta
[12:47] <Keybuk> Kamion: does setupcon change vts at all?
[12:48] <Hobbsee> hey dholbach 
[12:49] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hello, here ?
[12:49] <Kamion> Keybuk: yes
[12:49] <dholbach> hi Hobbsee
[12:49] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, can I disturb you ?
[12:49] <Kamion> Keybuk: actually it's the tools it calls that do it
[12:49] <Kamion> Keybuk: AFAIK setting the font involves a vt switch to get the ioctls to work right
[12:50] <pitti> slomo: do you particularly care for wireshark? if so, do you fancy merging it again to kill two tons of vulnerabilities?
[12:50] <mvo> IIRC it was not possible to set the fonts while in graphics mode
[12:53] <Hobbsee> pitti: i'll do it, it seems to be on my list
[12:53] <Kamion> Keybuk: I could be wrong about that, but all I know is that neither console-screen.sh nor setupcon change VT directly - it's one of the tools they call
[12:54] <Keybuk> Kamion: or the author of the code that sets the font thought it might require a vt switch
[12:55] <Keybuk> and if one rewrote that code, it might not :-/
[12:55] <Keybuk> and, frankly, if there's an ioctl that cares that a tty is the active one in order to change it, we can fix the kernel <g>
[12:55] <Kamion> I certainly wouldn't complain - just don't know exactly which bit of code it is
[12:55] <Keybuk> but short-term (in the next 5 mins), I would say the usplash init script should be changed to call your new script
[12:56] <Kamion> exactly what I'm doing
[12:56] <Keybuk> good man
[12:58] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts/+bug/55966 finally a solution found! now fonts have perfect outline in user and root mode. is it possible to have the same update for dapper and edgy and debian unstable in the same time ? Thank You again.
[12:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55966 in ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts "ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts.conf problem." [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[12:59] <pitti> Hobbsee: yay
[12:59] <AlinuxOS> pitti, hello ;) nad have a nice hacking night :) or maybe simply good night.
[01:00] <pitti> hi AlinuxOS 
[01:00] <pitti> AlinuxOS: late night meeting today :)
[01:00] <Hobbsee> pitti: seeing as it's got my name listed against it, perhaps i'd better, you know :P
[01:00] <Kamion> Keybuk: did you forget to check in usplash-testcard.c?
[01:01] <sladen> to remove the brandingness?
[01:01] <Keybuk> Kamion: that's generated
[01:01] <Kamion> oh, it showed up in debdiff
[01:01] <Kamion> as being in the 0.4-19 source
[01:01] <Keybuk> odd
[01:01] <Kamion> I guess somebody forgot to clean?
[01:01] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I'm in Italy now...I was in Karlsruhe for a month...It was really great...now a little bit sad. (sorry for OT)
[01:02] <Keybuk> I guess clean isn't perfect
[01:02] <Kamion> Keybuk: I don't see where it's generated?
[01:02] <Keybuk> Kamion: heh, maybe it's just cruft in my bzr directory :p
[01:02] <Kamion> but the Makefile mentions it
[01:02] <Kamion> ./Makefile:29:libusplash_OBJECTS = libusplash.o usplash-testcard.o usplash-testcard-theme.o $(usplash_BACKEND) bogl/helvB10.o
[01:03] <Keybuk> Kamion: weird
[01:03] <Keybuk> Kamion: it's generated by the .png.c rule
[01:04] <Kamion> oh, right, yeah - just found that
[01:04] <Kamion> right, good, signing and uploading
[01:08] <dholbach> if launchpad says there was a "chroot problem" - will it be automatically retried?
[01:09] <pitti> Mithrandir: l-c-w-a-y-g?
[01:09] <Mithrandir> pitti: live-cd-write-as-you-go
[01:10] <pitti> Mithrandir: thanks *hug*
[01:31] <madduck> q/l
[01:32] <madduck> sorry
[01:34] <administrator> Kamion: may i have a word with you in pm?
[01:36] <Kamion> administrator: sure, although I'm in a meeting so will not be paying full attention I'm afraid
[01:36] <administrator> Kamion: oh ok, when is the meeting over?
[01:36] <Kamion> administrator: half an hour to an hour, but then I'm going straight to sleep
[01:37] <Kamion> let me know whatever it is now and I'll reply when I get a chance
[01:37] <administrator> alright
[01:47] <ogra_> pitti, the student-control-panel MIR is missing, but its quite big so i didnt assume it will hit main before FF
[01:48] <pitti> ogra_: if you need it, I can do it tomorrow, but I didn't hear any pokes about it so far, so I just postponed MIR in favor of some high urgency stuff
[01:49] <ogra_> pitti, it would rock if it could go on the CD 
[01:49] <ogra_> (so to main)
[01:49] <ogra_> but i didnt count on it anymore ... anyway, so do as you have time 
[01:50] <pitti> ogra_: then it'll take a while; really, you have to urge me according to the goals
[01:50] <ogra_> pitti, my problem is that i have an implemented spec that has never got the final approval by mdz ...
[01:50] <pitti> uh
[01:51] <ogra_> well, cbx33 jumped on it and implemented it ...
[01:51] <ogra_> i had already given it up since mdz said i should give it the lowes prio
[01:52] <mdz> pitti,ogra_: edgy targets get priority
[01:52] <ogra_> SCP was an edgy target initially ...
[01:52] <ogra_> it slipped down the list with every review ...
[01:53] <ogra_> i dont mind if SCP stays in universe for edgy and moves to main in edgy+1 ... its just that its really done so pete would deserve that it ends up on the CD
[01:54] <ogra_> he has put plenty of nightshifts into it
[01:54] <ogra_> (aside from making new ubuntu sounds and edubuntu artwork and patching pessulus etc ... he's a hard worker)
[01:55] <pitti> ogra_: ok, I'll try to process MIR tomorrow
[01:55] <ogra_> that will make him very happy :)
[01:55] <ogra_> LaserJock, no upload to universe yet ? 
[01:55] <LaserJock> it is
[01:55] <LaserJock> sitting in NEW
[01:56] <ogra_> ah cool !
[01:56] <ogra_> :))
[01:56] <ogra_> edubuntu edgy will become sooo sexy :D
[01:57] <seb128> doko: that gnome-vfs changes has been made weeks ago, nothing to do with "our gnome law"
[01:57] <seb128> doko: and it doesn't break any app afaik
[01:57] <seb128> doko: a meeting is not the place to raise an issue for the first time
[01:59] <doko> seb128: it wouldn't be a problem if somebody of the desktop team would check OOo and gnome after gnome upgrades
[02:00] <seb128> doko: we can't check every single function of every single app
[02:00] <seb128> I did test GNOME
[02:00] <seb128> and lot of people did
[02:00] <seb128> and nobody opened a bug in weeks now
[02:00] <dholbach> it's strange that a rebuild doesn't seem to help
[02:00] <dholbach> doko: does the backtrace indicate gnomevfs problems?
[02:01] <pitti> the linker does not pick up libbonobo then?
[02:01] <Keybuk> thom: hmm
[02:01] <doko> dholbach: the OOo file selectors point into that direction
[02:01] <doko> seb128: no, I just ask to start OOo *once* and edit a document / write it.
[02:03] <seb128> doko: openoffice is broken for weeks and you just noticed today?
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> gah.
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> I can't get anything to not crash if I try to preload libhoard.
[02:04] <dholbach> seb128: no, it's broken for a while and it's known
[02:04] <dholbach> seb128: it works with the std fileselector, but not with the gnome one
[02:05] <seb128> dholbach: and why it has not been mentionned before?
[02:05] <doko> seb128: no, it's long known, but the recent discussion on debian-release pointed into that direction
[02:06] <seb128> doko: I'm not on that chan, list, or whatever media the discussion was on
[02:07] <pitti> mvo: I just discovered the software sources GUI and about three bugs :)
[02:07] <doko> seb128: but apparently you did know about this issue
[02:07] <seb128> doko: no
[02:07] <seb128> doko: I didn't know that's an issue
[02:07] <mvo> pitti: *ick* can you file bugs about them please? 
[02:07] <pitti> mvo: I wil
[02:07] <pitti> l
[02:07] <seb128> I know they moved symbols from gnome-vfs to libbonobo
 doko: it's a discutable "ABI change" then ;)
 seb128: are you and dholbach the only ones forwarding bugs upstream, or do others help as well?
 doko: they moved some function from gnome-vfs to libbonobo which the linux linker handle fine
[02:08] <seb128> and that the linker manages fine
[02:08] <seb128> yeah
[02:08] <seb128> it's a "non issue" to upstream and to me
[02:08] <seb128> since it works fine
[02:08] <doko> even when dlopen'ing the libraries?
[02:08] <Keybuk> seb128: does gnome-vfs DT_NEEDED libbonobo?
[02:08] <Keybuk> or does it rely on the app doing that?
[02:09] <seb128> Keybuk: rely on app
[02:09] <Keybuk> then that's an ABI change
[02:09] <Keybuk> and is broken
[02:09] <Keybuk> you should add a DT_NEEDED otherwise you just dropped symbols
[02:09] <dholbach> hum
[02:09] <dholbach> doko: on which arch is it broken?
[02:10] <seb128> Keybuk: apps linked with gnome-vfs were linked with libbonobo too so upstream argue that's not a breakage
[02:11] <Keybuk> seb128: clearly that is not true
[02:11] <Keybuk> as gnome-vfs does not link to libbonobo
[02:11] <seb128> no, but it doesn't use it neither
[02:11] <seb128> it uses dbus now
[02:11] <Keybuk> if it doesn't use it, how come openoffice is having problems?
[02:11] <seb128> I don't know
[02:11] <seb128> we are making conjoncture that's due to that move
[02:11] <Keybuk> doko: what bonobo symbols does openoffice use from gnome-vfs ?
[02:11] <seb128> I've no detail about the bug
[02:12] <Keybuk> maybe it just needs to be rebuilt or something :p
[02:12] <dholbach> doko: saving works on amd64 with gnome fileselector now
[02:14] <doko> Keybuk: I didn't check yet. "just needs to be rebuilt" points to some problems.
[02:17] <dholbach> it's *_mime_* API that was moved
[02:19] <seb128> dholbach: no, it's *bonobo*mime*
[02:23] <Kamion> mdz: so, we never turned on universe and multiverse by default for edgy
[02:23] <Keybuk> Kamion: "turned on" ?
[02:24] <Kamion> there's a spec about it
[02:24] <Kamion> turning them on by default
[02:24] <ogra_> eek
[02:24] <mdz> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/enabling-additional-components
[02:24] <Riddell> yes please
[02:24] <mdz> mvo: ^^ ?
[02:24] <Kamion> I had a look at the state of the package management system recently
[02:24] <Kamion> g-a-i seemed fine, the work there had been done
[02:25] <Kamion> synaptic hadn't
[02:25] <Kamion> software-properties hadn't
[02:25] <mvo> mdz: that one is still in review 
[02:25] <mdz> mvo: I emailed about it a few weeks ago
[02:25] <mdz> because it is a dependency of easy-codec-installation
[02:26] <Kamion> if synaptic and software-properties could relatively easily be changed, it's a trivial switch to throw in the installer
[02:26] <mdz> not that I'll finish that tonight
[02:26] <Kamion> although it would slow down the apt-get update stage somewhat
[02:26] <mvo> mdz: I would have to look that up, but IIRC I updated it and asked for review 
[02:26] <Kamion> so I wanted to know whether I should be throwing that switch
[02:26] <mvo> I noted that in the last two status update meetings that I'm blocked on this
[02:26] <mdz> mvo: I think sabdfl expressed some concern about the UI and I asked him for feedback
[02:27] <mdz> hmm, yes, I did
[02:27] <mdz> I didn't get a reply
[02:29] <mvo> mdz: was that after my comment in the whiteboard: "2006-07-05
[02:29] <mvo> Adressed the comments by the various reviewers and added them to the spec itself - please review"
[02:29] <mvo> ?
[02:32] <mvo> mdz: it seems that its the synaptic stuff that is missing. I can have a look tomorrow and try to estimate how long it will take. I could get it done before the weekend I think
[02:39] <mvo> mdz: I'm off to bed now, please let me know what you think about this tomorrow
[02:53] <ogra> mdz, i have two fixes for dapper i'd like to land soon for ltsp, one is the fix at the end of #39294:and the other is a fx for g-p-m that hides the hibernate action on logout http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/70-suppress-pm-actions-on-ltsp.patch
[02:58] <LaserJock> oh man, synaptic repo stuff got really cool in edgy
[03:00] <Kamion> mdz: is the intent to switch to linux-generic as the default install kernel?
[03:01] <Kamion> though that would effectively desupport 486 systems except for netboot and DVD (ha ha)
[03:01] <Kamion> mdz: perhaps linux-generic just on the desktop CD and leave -386 on the alternate?
[03:05] <Kamion> mdz: of course, the trouble with *that* approach would be that desktop would have to be different between the desktop and alternate CDs in order to account for needing different linux-headers packages
[03:05] <Kamion> so I don't know
[03:06] <Kamion> I'm moving desktop to linux-headers-386 for now, since that's the kernel provided on the CDs
[03:07] <Kamion> (as it happened we had linux-headers-686 in desktop and linux-headers-386 in ship, apparently by mistake, so that's a megabyte or so reclaimed from the i386 CD)
[03:08] <jdub> Seveas: pong
[03:10] <Kamion> oh, we ship both kernels on the alternate CD; hmm; I'll just match everything up
[03:22] <mdz> Kamion: linux-generic on desktop and -386 on alternate was the plan
[03:23] <mdz> Kamion: hadn't thought about the headers problem
[03:24] <Hobbsee> stupid question here, but why not use the linux-headers-generic, as you have with the rest of them?
[03:24] <Hobbsee> ie, -image and restricted modules and all that?
[03:26] <desrt> upstart is acting really goofy....
[03:31] <Kamion> Hobbsee: -generic is basically -586
[03:31] <Kamion> it's not an "all the headers" metapackage
[03:31] <Hobbsee> well, yeah, of course.  so if you're only shipping -586, surely you only need the headers for -586?
[03:31] <Kamion> ok, that unicode-data upload should untangle the console-data FTBFS on i386
[03:32] <Hobbsee> like i say, i think i'm missing something really stupidly obvious here
[03:32] <Kamion> at least the build-dep part; I'll upload tomorrow for the rest
[03:32] <desrt> bah
[03:32] <desrt> upstart won't do anything but boot into singleuser mode anymore :(
[03:32] <Kamion> Hobbsee: sure, you're right, but if we wanted to ship -generic on the desktop CD and -386 on the alternate CD, we run into the problem that the definition of the desktop seed is common to both desktop CD and alternate CD
[03:33] <Hobbsee> Kamion: point.  then stupid question number 2 is why you want to ship -386 at all then.
[03:33] <Kamion> Hobbsee: the only way to resolve that is to have both -386 and -generic in desktop, which is not really desirable due to bloat
[03:33] <desrt> and it's a terribly fucked single user mode where backspace puts a ^? ^H puts ^H and enter puts ^M and ^J puts ^J
[03:33] <Hobbsee> yes of course
[03:33] <Kamion> Hobbsee: because it's still actually possible and occasionally useful to install 486-class systems with Ubuntu, believe it or not; and also I believe there's still some legacy hardware around that blows up with a 586-class kernel
[03:34] <Kamion> I'm not saying 486 should continue to be the default, but I do think it needs to be possible somehow
[03:34] <Kamion> maybe we should make 386 an option on the install CD but not the default, and not ship the headers for it
[03:34] <Hobbsee> Kamion: ah, ouch.  right.
[03:35] <Kamion> note that the installer itself uses the -386 kernel and modules, so you could end up in a situation where you could install but not boot into the resulting system, if you were very unlucky ...
[03:35] <Hobbsee> right.
[03:35] <Hobbsee> heh.  that sounds like our car licencing.
[03:35] <Kamion> Hobbsee: a further problem is that 486-class systems tend not to have enough hardware to deal with the more advanced installation methods
[03:35] <Kamion> they often don't have PXE-capable network cards, they very likely don't have DVD drives, etc.
[03:36] <Hobbsee> Kamion: gotcha, fair enough.  stupid question number3 is why ship the 586 class kernel at all, but you dont have to answer that if you dont feel like
[03:36] <HrdwrBoB> 486 class systems are lucky to have an IDE CDROM
[03:36] <Kamion> sorry, I'm conflating 386 and 486 all over the place here, which is because our C++ libraries require 486 anyway so 386 is basically dead in the water
[03:36] <Kamion> Hobbsee: we get a lot of complaints from optimisation-lovers if we don't :-)
[03:36] <Hobbsee> Kamion: point.
[03:36] <robertj_> HrdwrBoB: I don't know about lucky
[03:36] <Kamion> it apparently is a bit of a speed gain
[03:36] <robertj_> HrdwrBoB: I'd say most 486s had CDRoms
[03:37] <robertj_> HrdwrBoB: the DX/66 had a very long life
[03:37] <Hobbsee> Kamion: i thought the straight dope thread on ubuntu-devel had proved that that wasnt the case.
[03:37] <Kamion> I think Ben profiled the various options, hence the newly-cut-down number of kernel targets we're building
[03:37] <HrdwrBoB> robertj_: I know of nobody who uses a 486 whatsoever, infact I'm pretty sure most charities will bin them now
[03:37] <Kamion> Hobbsee: I'm way behind on ubuntu-devel. I don't think *all* the targets we used to build were necessary ...
[03:37] <robertj_> HrdwrBoB: oh no, i think its silly to support 486
[03:38] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: you know mdz, right? :-)
[03:38] <robertj_> HrdwrBoB: just saying, don't down the 486 :)
[03:38] <Hobbsee> Kamion: right
[03:38] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: IIRC he has a fairly-recently-acquired Soekris router box which has a 486 inside; it's still used in embedded systems sometimes
[03:39] <robertj_> People who are using 486s for running gateways need to do the math on energy costs
[03:39] <Kamion> sometimes one's time in replacing hardware has a cost too
[03:39] <HrdwrBoB> Kamion: and if you are trying to install ubuntu on an embedded 486
[03:39] <HrdwrBoB> you probably need to rethink what you are doing :)
[03:39] <Kamion> look, I'm not saying it's a great idea, I just don't want to render it impossible
[03:39] <Kamion> if I don't absolutely have to
[03:39] <HrdwrBoB> it should be possible
[03:40] <HrdwrBoB> but there's no real reason it neeeds to be on a CD for thousands/millions/whatever  of people to download 
[03:40] <desrt> why not just use -686 and put -386 (or whatever) on a separate cd?
[03:40] <Kamion> particularly because I'm not sure it's only 486s that require the -386 kernel; Ben said something about bits of hardware that fail when SMP alternatives are enabled, as they are in -generic, but I forget the details
[03:40] <Kamion> desrt: we are NOT NOT NOT building a separate CD
[03:40] <Kamion> combinatorial explosion would kill us
[03:40] <desrt> k :)
[03:40] <desrt> Kamion; not really
[03:40] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: how else will they boot it, though?
[03:40] <desrt> Kamion; the 386 cd would be server-only
[03:41] <Kamion> desrt: you've just described one use case for an extra CD. There are lots. I say no to them all, so far.
[03:41] <HrdwrBoB> Kamion: on what hardware?
[03:41] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: <Kamion> ... but I forget the details
[03:41] <Kamion> ask Ben
[03:41] <HrdwrBoB> if we're talking about embedded machines, you're up to a higher class of user
[03:41] <Kamion> not embedded AFAIK, but ASK BEN
[03:41] <HrdwrBoB> ok
[03:42] <Kamion> I suppose there's the netboot mini.iso
[03:42] <Kamion> I could advertise that for 486 users
[03:42] <Kamion> still worried about the "install with one kernel and boot with another" though - I think that will bring us a lot of subtle bugs
[03:42] <robertj_> Isn't there a mubuntu that should be responsible for hardware thats too low-overhead for normal ubuntu?
[03:42] <Kamion> robertj_: in theory, but not in practice
[03:43] <Kamion> I do not like delegating to semi-vapourware
[03:43] <robertj_> Kamion: then I say let them theoretically get it working, or wait for some company to offer Canonical cash to fix it
[03:43] <HrdwrBoB> I agree, I've had many problems relating slightly different versions
[03:43] <Kamion> and I say let's not break stuff that works until we have a good solution
[03:43] <HrdwrBoB> especially relating to alternative storage methods
[03:43] <HrdwrBoB> raid cards, USB storage, etc
[03:44] <Kamion> robertj_: no company would offer Canonical cash to fix something that we just deliberately broke
[03:44] <Kamion> be realistic :)
[03:44] <robertj_> Kamion: also, no company is going to put a 486 on a board & want to run Ubuntu :)
[03:44] <Kamion> sigh. off to bed.
[03:44] <robertj_> g'night
[03:45] <jdub> yay, my laptop shipped
[03:45] <mneptok> jdub: but ... to *you*?
[03:47] <Kamion> I'm going to ask Ben to consider producing i386 -generic udebs so that we have more options to play with here
[03:47] <robertj_> jdub: new lappy?
[03:47] <jdub> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4310115400.html
[03:48] <Chipzz> hi jdub
[03:48] <jdub> "Simply RISC's free, open "S1" core can run Ubuntu Linux, and targets embedded devices such as PDAs, set-top boxes, and digital cameras, the company says."
[03:49] <jdub> ubuntu noted in press release as evidence of usefulness - check!
[04:00] <administrator> hello all i was wondering how do i go about generating a livecd from seeds
[04:02] <Hobbsee> hey Keybuk 
[04:03] <Hobbsee> gah.  autosyncer for universe isnt on, is it?
[04:04] <crimsun> not that I'm aware. We've been filing sync requests for source packages that lack Ubuntu deltas.
[04:04] <administrator> hmmm interesting
[04:05] <Hobbsee> crimsun: right.
[04:09] <administrator> well bbsot
[04:14] <pixelmonkey> a quick question about launchpad.  Other than just adding to the description of an existing bug, is there any way for me to CONFIRM it, like in bugzilla?
[04:16] <crimsun> change the Status to Confirmed.
[04:33] <administrator> so i guess not
[04:34] <administrator> well can someone point me to documentation? i do not think i want to try this with debian cd creation tools
[04:57] <desrt> does troy sobotka irc?
[04:58] <crimsun> maybe in #ubuntu-artwork? 
[04:59] <desrt> check.
[05:00] <jsgotangco> i should update later and see too heh
[05:03] <desrt> jsgotangco; http://desrt.mcmaster.ca/random/edgy-gdm-theme.png
[05:12] <jsgotangco> its a bit off
[05:13] <desrt> jsgotangco; crazytalk
[05:13] <TheMuso> Artwork shmartwork! :p
[05:18] <jsgotangco> brb
[05:18] <jdub> oh man
[05:20] <desrt> jdub; your impression?
[05:20] <jdub> *bzzt*
[05:20] <desrt> uh oh
[05:20] <jdub> to be frank :)
[05:20] <desrt> can you be a bit more precise?
[05:21] <jdub> i think the traditional gdm theme has been a very strong, high quality brand image for ubuntu
[05:21] <jdub> so there's a risk in changing that at all
[05:21] <Keybuk> what's the traditional gdm theme?
[05:21] <desrt> the one that this one replaces
[05:21] <Keybuk> they're both just arty wish wash, no?
[05:21] <jdub> certainly it can do with refinement, particularly as the technology improves
[05:21] <Keybuk> though Jane is going to go mental when she sees that logo
[05:21] <Keybuk> and quote spacing guidelines and stuff
[05:22] <desrt> Keybuk; if my system reaches maximum mount count and does a fsck then upstart does some very bad things
[05:22] <jdub> but it's a *very* strong image
[05:22] <Keybuk> desrt: define bad
[05:22] <desrt> Keybuk; it drops me down to a single-user shell
[05:22] <jdub> i think the one above doesn't have the same quality
[05:22] <Keybuk> jdub: is it?  I always thought the old one was crap
[05:22] <desrt> Keybuk; with fsck running in the background (but it doesn't mention that fact)
[05:22] <jdub> plus it's 'just brown'
[05:22] <Keybuk> admittedly, I don't like the new one either
[05:22] <Keybuk> desrt: does it give you a message with the shell?
[05:22] <jdub> Keybuk: the traditional one is extremely recognisable, it's a *very* strong image
[05:22] <desrt> ya.  something about "there are no processes running so i will give you a shell" or something
[05:23] <jdub> Keybuk: it's also minimal and 'quality'
[05:23] <Keybuk> jdub: I disagree, but anyhoo
[05:23] <desrt> Keybuk; jdub is a hater
[05:24] <Keybuk> they change the windows login screen every release
[05:24] <Keybuk> I really don't think people care
[05:24] <jdub> desrt: i'm stating quite the opposite, actually
[05:24] <Keybuk> desrt: that's odd
[05:24] <jdub> Keybuk: "every windows release" comes vastly less often than every ubuntu release
[05:24] <jdub> consistency in branding, particularly for the 'front door' is important
[05:24] <desrt> jdub; general disclaimer is that i define anyone who doesn't like exactly what i like as a hater :p
[05:24] <jdub> and that screen, i believe, is actually a very strong brand image
[05:25] <Keybuk> jdub: you need to preach this to the art team :p
[05:25] <jdub> i know
[05:25] <Keybuk> desrt: it only gives you that message if the system fell flat on its face
[05:25] <desrt> jdub; i think that this new screen is sufficiently similar looking to the old one that the brand isn't lost for those who don't really pay attention
[05:25] <jdub> desrt: it's not
[05:25] <desrt> jdub; and for those who do pay attention they know that it's still the same thing....
[05:26] <jdub> no dude, the glow was *really* important
[05:26] <jdub> think about it
[05:26] <jdub> when you see rooms of ubuntu machines
[05:26] <jdub> in photos on flickr
[05:26] <desrt> Keybuk; lemme flag my fs for fsck on reboot and give it a go
[05:26] <jdub> do you see rooms of desktops?
[05:26] <jdub> *NO*
[05:26] <jdub> you see rooms of *login screens*
[05:26] <jdub> the bright, cheery, everyone-knows-it, ubuntu login screen
[05:26] <desrt> great.  so this will let us collect version statistics from images of rollouts :)
[05:27] <Keybuk> jdub: you forgot to subscribe to the Quotes page before you left
[05:27] <Keybuk> you anti-traditionalist, you
[05:27] <Burgundavia> jdub: who has final say over the artwork?
[05:27] <mjg59> Mark
[05:27] <Burgundavia> I agree on the login screen
[05:28] <jdub> (i was asked for my opinion here, at some stage i will mail the art team)
[05:28] <trappist> what's the deal with compiz-kde?  the compiz source package no longer builds it, but there's a package on the repos that's uninstallable due to deps on an older compiz.
[05:29] <trappist> or maybe I should ask in #ubuntu-motu?
[05:31] <Keybuk> desrt: if you can be at that shell and on IRC, that'd be great
[05:31] <desrt> Keybuk; it's not doing it now :p
[05:32] <desrt> (of course)
[05:32] <Keybuk> lol
[05:32] <desrt> oh nice.  fsck finished and bad stuff happened
[05:32] <desrt> filesystem didn't get remounted readwrite....
[05:32] <desrt> (therefore X failed to start)
[05:32] <Keybuk> the one I've usually seen is that sulogin fails, so it just reboots after fsck :p
[05:33] <TheMuso> Ok, that is a big gdm artwork change.
[05:33] <desrt> i wonder if maybe it's just an error in the fsck script
[05:37] <desrt> Keybuk; ok... the upgrade of usplash/initramfs/upstart or the combination thereof that i just did obviously corrected the problem
[05:37] <desrt> Keybuk; but the system is now (reproducably) totally screwed if you ^C a fsck
[05:37] <Keybuk> oh, you upgraded upstart?
[05:38] <desrt> you don't get a readwrite remount
[05:38] <administrator> well goodday everyone
[05:40] <Keybuk> desrt: err, it's always been screwed if you ^C a fsck
[05:40] <Keybuk> sysvinit doesn't handle that well either
[05:41] <desrt> Keybuk; i used to be able to do that and it would just delay the fsck until next time and boot normally
[05:41] <Keybuk> oh?
[05:41] <Keybuk> not sure why upstart would change that
[05:41] <desrt> definitely.
[05:41] <Keybuk> you're still in the same checkroot.sh, run by the same /etc/init.d/rc, etc.
[05:42] <desrt> run by the sysv compatibility script...
[05:42] <Keybuk> the sysv compatibility script being "exec /etc/init.d/rcS" :p
[05:42] <desrt> maybe signals are handled slightly differently
[05:42] <Keybuk> not sure why they would be
[05:43] <desrt> it's certainly not a big deal
[05:43] <Keybuk> sysvinit gives it /dev/console and TIOCTTY
[05:43] <Keybuk> so does upstart
[05:43] <Keybuk> are you sure that fsck just isn't failing for other reasons?
[05:43] <desrt> i ran fsck earlier tonight
[05:43] <desrt> it just ran again because i set my maximal mount count to 1
[05:43] <desrt> (and hit ^c quite early)
[06:02] <Keybuk> heh @ upstart
[06:02] <Keybuk> just worked out why control-alt-delete doesn't work
[06:02] <Keybuk> heh
[06:10] <desrt> holy CRAP apt-get autoremove
[06:31] <desrt> how does one gain privs to change priority of bugs from untriaged?
[06:31] <desrt> or can this only be done my package maintainers?
[06:33] <Lathiat> um you need magic bug powerz
[06:33] <Lathiat> not sure how you request that actually
[06:34] <Lathiat> if youve got a specified bug in mind right now i could change it for you
[06:34] <Burgundavia> desrt: you need to be -qa
[06:34] <desrt> a segfault inside malloc() can mean 1 of 2 possible things
[06:34] <Burgundavia> which is only about 5 people
[06:34] <desrt> i'm really hoping it the easy one
[06:35] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: is the motu group also given that ability?
[06:35] <Lathiat> else i have no idea how i can do it
[06:35] <Burgundavia> Lathiat: afaik, no
[06:35] <Lathiat> pretty sure im not in -qa
[06:35] <Lathiat> hrm  possibly because i usually edit bugs assigned to ubuntu-motu
[06:35] <Lathiat> that might make sense
[06:36] <desrt> does anyone here actually use their computer to do stuff?
[06:37] <Burgundavia> desrt: it is known
[06:37] <jdub> it's been around since warty ;)
[06:38] <desrt> either i'm seeing a dup or it's reasonably unknown :)
[06:38] <Burgundavia> no, this is every time, as opposed to once in 10
[06:38] <desrt> bug 58492
[06:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58492 in openoffice.org-amd64 "Openoffice.org crashes on "Save"" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58492
[06:39] <desrt> ((sort of funny how "reported bug" != "known bug" anymore))
[06:40] <Burgundavia> there is a dup somewhere
[06:40] <Burgundavia> LP has no facility for marking common dups
[06:41] <desrt> open a bug about it against malone
[06:41] <Burgundavia> any ephy users around?
[06:41] <desrt> and i'll open one too
[06:41] <desrt> the irony will be fantastic
[06:41] <Lathiat> haha
[06:41] <desrt> me.
[06:42] <desrt> what's the official way to set CFLAGS for a debuild?
[06:42] <Burgundavia> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52332 <-- do you get the "unsubmitted form elements" dialog on this page when you try and close it?
[06:42] <desrt> i do.
[06:43] <Burgundavia> appears to be: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345786
[06:43] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 345786 in General "the "unsubmitted changes to form elements" warning should recognize when a form was autofilled, and not warn in that case." [Enhancement,New]  
[06:43] <desrt> i get that error on googlemaps too
[06:43] <desrt> although there it makes a little bit of sense
[06:44] <Burgundavia> right
[07:01] <Amaranth> damn, looks like willowng got caught in binary NEW
[07:01] <Amaranth> dang willowng-config-kde
[07:03] <desrt> oh fuck me
[07:03] <desrt> openoffice is linked against both libdbus-1.so.3 and libdbus-1.so.2
[07:03] <Amaranth> desrt: I'd rather not, you haven't given me anything.
[07:03] <Amaranth> *shudder*
[07:03] <Burgundavia> desrt: that might be an issue?
[07:03] <desrt> "heh"
[07:05] <Burgundavia> cool, I just doubled the number of bugs on moodle!
[07:07] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: Now it has 2 bugs?
[07:07] <Burgundavia> 4
[07:07] <Amaranth> heh
[07:08] <Burgundavia> 3 of them are "fails to install correctly"
[07:08] <Burgundavia> which means more bugs have not yet come in because nobody can get teh bloody thing installed
[07:09] <Burgundavia> just to clarify, debian policy states that apt-get install blah should make blah just work?
[07:09] <Burgundavia> it should prompt you when it needs to, etc?
[07:09] <Amaranth> Nope
[07:10] <desrt> i wonder if this bug would be less of a problem if elf didn't have a flat namespace
[07:10] <Burgundavia> right
[07:10] <Amaranth> I know apt-file used to get installed non-functional because it could use wget or curl to download with but only had them as Recommends
[07:10] <Burgundavia> right, but that is a bug
[07:10] <Amaranth> not according to people i asked
[07:10] <Amaranth> i thought so to
[07:11] <Amaranth> +o
[07:11] <Burgundavia> is zope an entire webserver?
[07:11] <Burgundavia> installing schooltool and it is not pulling in apache
[07:11] <Amaranth> yeah
[07:12] <Amaranth> most python webapps either have their own webserver or include one of the python webservers in their tree
[07:12] <Amaranth> mod_python appears to be unliked
[07:12] <jdub> like many python web projects, it includes a web serving component
[07:12] <jdub> which is often used behind apache
[07:12] <Amaranth> they tell you to use mod_proxy to make it play nice with apache
[07:12] <jdub> Amaranth: apache modules are teh suck
[07:13] <jdub> Amaranth: web applications are teh rock!
[07:13] <Amaranth> heh
[07:13] <desrt> jdub; there are various hacks to get suexec ability for php
[07:13] <jdub> php is still a bit dark ages
[07:14] <Amaranth> yeah
[07:14] <jdub> desrt: still cgi
[07:14] <desrt> you can do it even with modphp from what i understand
[07:14] <jdub> desrt: i prefer to run web apps as *apps*
[07:14] <Amaranth> if it wasn't CGI you could make /home noexec and solve lots of problems
[07:14] <desrt> o.
[07:14] <Burgundavia> isn't this a massive security hole? "By default a user 'manager' with password 'schooltool' is created with full
[07:14] <Burgundavia> access and modification privileges.
[07:14] <Burgundavia> "
[07:15] <jdub> desrt: lgo is moin as an app behind mod_proxy
[07:15] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: But is the server open to outside access?
[07:15] <Amaranth> (that's also a common thing for webapps)
[07:16] <Burgundavia> desrt: you poor poor bastard
[07:16] <desrt> jdub; that's neat.
[07:16] <Burgundavia> Amaranth: currently no, but it could very easily be
[07:16] <desrt> 215MB :(
[07:17] <Amaranth> desrt: you touched it last, you're the new maintainer ;)
[07:17] <Amaranth> wait, that's firefox
[07:17] <Burgundavia> hmm, System Tools has reappeared :(
[07:17] <jdub> desrt: if the app dies, i've set apache to show a cool 'server down' page - much better than not getting any response at all ;)
[07:18] <desrt> jdub; what is the communication like?  normal http?
[07:18] <jdub> desrt: yep
[07:18] <desrt> spiff
[07:18] <jdub> normal mod_proxy
[07:18] <desrt> why not just run a separate php-only apache server? :)
[07:18] <jdub> to a localhost only http server
[07:18] <jdub> desrt: lots of people do that with lighttpd
[07:18] <desrt> seems like a cool idea
[07:18] <desrt> could even do it per-user
[07:19] <jdub> yeah, makes it much saner
[07:19] <desrt> http-over-domain-sockets would make it hella-cool
[07:19] <jdub> quite a few enlightened hosting companies are doing things that way now
[07:19] <jdub> (those are usually the ones who've experienced running python, rails or java apps)
[07:19] <desrt> that way you don't have to worry about allocating port numbers or having user start their http on the port of another user
[07:19] <desrt> ow.  why?
[07:20] <jdub> because you like it that way!
[07:20] <desrt> sure :p
[07:20] <desrt> why is archive SO SLOW?
[07:21] <mneptok> desrt: php-fcgi + lighty = each user's PHP processes belong only that user, and can be started and stopped independently of the daemon.
[07:21] <mneptok> very nice
[07:21] <desrt> ya...
[07:21] <jdub> and you can give decent status pages
[07:21] <desrt> but how do you deal with the port-allocation problem?
[07:21] <mneptok> mod_proxy
[07:22] <desrt> oh.  this is much better.  canadian mirror is just being slow
[07:22] <mneptok> lighty answers on 81 and apache's mod_proxy passes off to that port for things lighty should serve
[07:22] <desrt> but say you're a hosting company with 100 users
[07:22] <mneptok> desrt: .ca mirror for Ubuntu or ... ?
[07:22] <desrt> each user will need a different local port number to bind to
[07:22] <jdub> desrt: it's not usually an issue - one port per user
[07:22] <desrt> mneptok; ya.  dog slow right now
[07:22] <jdub> or site
[07:23] <desrt> jdub; right... but say my port number is 4000
[07:23] <desrt> jdub; and yours is 4001
[07:23] <mneptok> desrt: that mirror is on some very sketchy hardware ATM
[07:23] <desrt> your server goes offline
[07:23] <desrt> what's to stop me from starting my server on port 4001?
[07:23] <mneptok> USherbrooke is looking to upgrade their infrastructure
[07:23] <desrt> i wonder if mcmaster would get mad at me if i mirrored the archive
[07:23] <jdub> desrt: that assumes you have access
[07:23] <desrt> jdub; good call
[07:23] <desrt> jdub; but.......
[07:24] <jdub> desrt: but it's doable otherwise (selinux, say)
[07:24] <desrt> jdub; if you're running php, you have access
[07:24] <desrt> jdub; true.
[07:24] <desrt> unix domain sockets still seem cleaner :)
[07:24] <jdub> desrt: why if you're running php?
[07:24] <desrt> jdub; php can execute shell commands, read/write files, etc
[07:24] <desrt> jdub; having the ability to run arbitrary php scripts as a certain user is the same as having a shell as that user
[07:25] <mneptok> not if you chroot the individual php-fcgi process to the user's ~/ ;)
[07:25] <desrt> which is the whole point of moving php out of the same userid of the webserver in the first place :)
[07:25] <jdub> desrt: "that assumes..." again :)
[07:25] <jdub> no
[07:25] <jdub> php being an ass is the reason for doing that
[07:25] <jdub> and having a more flexible hosting system
[07:26] <mneptok> take me, big boy.
[07:27] <desrt> jdub; is on x86
[07:27] <desrt> he has no room for register globals
[07:27] <mneptok> don't worry, baby. it will fit.
[07:27] <mneptok> >:)
[07:28] <desrt> we've definitely thrown the PG13 rating to the wind this evening...
[07:30] <desrt> heh
[07:30] <desrt> you can workaround the ooo bug by symlinking libdbus-1-2 to 1-3
[07:31] <Burgundavia> we went out drinking with a Josh from SUN, who used to work on OO.o and now works on Postgres for them
[07:31] <Burgundavia> at LWE, I should say
[07:31] <Burgundavia> he had some choice words to say about OO.o
[07:33] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: he prefers Postgresql, I take it? :P
[07:33] <desrt> i don't think i've ever seen a package so evil that it has a ubuntu/ directory and a 2800 line debian/rules
[07:37] <desrt> ok.  here's a question for people who might know
[07:37] <desrt> openoffice links against dbus but isn't picky about a specific version
[07:37] <desrt> then it has the shlibs thing in the depend: like for the gtk support package
[07:37] <desrt> it was last compiled on august 1
[07:38] <desrt> if someone kicks off a build now will it instead link against libdbus-1-3 and cause the problem to go away?
[07:40] <Amaranth> likely
[07:40] <Amaranth> build it in pbuilder (overnight, or something) and see :)
[07:43] <desrt> is there some tutorial to set one up?
[07:44] <Burgundavia> desrt: pbuilder? on the help wiki or the ubuntu wiki
[07:45] <Burgundavia> desrt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[07:47] <desrt> i wonder if i can build an edgy base.tar.gz on my laptop then move it to my dapper pc
[07:47] <Treenaks> sure
[07:47] <desrt> i bet i could even just copy the edgy debootstrap script over...
[07:47] <Treenaks> it's all chrooted.. and gcc doesn't care about the kernel, only about its headers ;)
[07:47] <Burgundavia> with pbuilder, you can easily have an edgy pbuilder on dapper
[07:48] <Burgundavia> without gross hacking
[07:49] <desrt> this is WAY easier than i thought it was
[07:49] <desrt> i like this a lot
[07:49] <Burgundavia> hmm,  http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39282879,00.htm
[07:53] <desrt> seems vaguely useful
[07:53] <desrt> debootstrapping is really fast.
[08:03] <jdub> Burgundavia: make sure he puts his name on the wiki, along with proposals
[08:13] <sladen> Burgundavia: I've followed that up already
[08:16] <Burgundavia> sladen: sorry, context?
[08:16] <sladen> Burgundavia: 06:49 <Burgundavia> hmm,  http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39282879,00.htm
[08:16] <Burgundavia> sladen: ah. And?
[08:17] <sladen> Burgundavia: no responses yet.  It's silly o'clock in everwhere except Australia :)
[08:17] <Burgundavia> right
[08:18] <Fujitsu> Yup, 1620 here :P
[08:18] <HiddenWolf> 8:18 AM in continental europe, hardly silly o'clock. :)
[08:19] <Fujitsu> Yeah, not particularly silly at all.
[08:19] <mneptok> and 09:18 in much of Africa. and central Asians are eating lunch.
[08:19] <Fujitsu> Silly USians, I guess.
[08:19] <HiddenWolf> pre-coffee-o'clock, granted. :)
[08:20] <mneptok> hell, it's my midday. but then, my schedule is crazed.
[08:20] <mneptok> 0220 is like noon. :/
[08:20] <sladen> Fujitsu: silly Brits
[08:21] <Fujitsu> Maybe.
[08:22] <sladen> Fujitsu: whoever, as you mention, the people I was emailing were in the US
[08:23] <Fujitsu> And where are you, sladen?
[08:27] <sladen> Fujitsu: the home of Robin Hood.  Hiding out in Nottingham, deep in the rainforests of Nottinghamshire, Engerland
[08:27] <Fujitsu> A... ha.
[08:28] <sid> Where can I see things that will be in Edgy? Like prelinking/initng/preload and other things like this to speed up the system.
[08:29] <Fujitsu> launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+specs
[08:29] <sid> thanks
[08:43] <desrt> sladen; edgy
[08:44] <sladen> sid: not prelinking :)
[08:44] <desrt> sladen; it's interesting to note that the result of doing a vbesave at boot and then once the X server has already loaded gives me different vbestate files
[08:44] <desrt> sladen; and that i _seem_ to get slightly better behaviour if i restore the one i saved after X has started
[08:44] <sladen> desrt: correct.  It's an attempt to snapshot the state of the video card.  In one it'sin Text-mode and the other in graphics mode
[08:44] <desrt> sladen; but either way it crashes sometimes and not others... :/
[08:45] <desrt> sladen; no.... the acpi suspend scripts change to a virtual console before vbestate save runs
[08:45] <sladen> desrt: the changing to a console seems (on the whole) to be a fairly reliable way of saving the state
[08:46] <desrt> sladen; it's true
[08:46] <desrt> sladen; but i still need a vberestore otherwise my backlight doesn't come back
[08:46] <desrt> :)
[08:46] <sladen> desrt: as if we do a save in graphics mode and the card carries on being communicated with after the save
[08:47] <desrt> sladen; point is i'm sort of screwed for ideas of what causes this
[08:47] <desrt> sladen; but if you want me to try stuff i'm more than willing
[08:47] <desrt> sladen; since it appears to affect an _awful_ lot of people :/
[08:47] <sladen> desrt: backlight;  what card is this?
[08:47] <desrt> over a dozen dups of the bug :p
[08:47] <desrt> i945gm
[08:48] <desrt> ooo just failed to pbuild.  now i'm upset :(
[08:50] <sid> Too bad no one is hacking on preload, that looks like an interesting project. It tries to identify patterns in your behavior iirc, so every time you boot, if you start firefox preload will see the pattern and load the binaries and dependencies right before you start it, so it loads very fast.
[08:50] <desrt> k.  in any case this is definitely a regression since 7.0->7.1
[08:50] <sid> Or if everytime you start your rss feed reader, 2 minutes later you click on a link and load your web browser. etc etc. It tries to find patterns that you do. iirc
[08:50] <desrt> but i'm gonna go to bed now
[08:50] <desrt> sladen; probably talk to you later about this :)
[08:50] <desrt> sladen; (assuming you're still interested in fixing it)
[08:52] <sid> Which could be useful if you modified it for web browser downloads. ie if someone downloads a .odt file, or a .doc file. and 90% of the time when they do this, they fire up OO.o, then loading OO.o into memory before they do that would make it appear as if the applications loads very fast.
[08:52] <desrt> sid; that's actually a neat idea
[08:53] <desrt> if you pick "open this file" start preloading the app before the file is done downloading
[08:53] <desrt> nite.
[08:54] <sid> peace
[09:14] <sid> Who is the web master?
[09:20] <HiddenWolf> Is there no i386 daily-live today?
[09:22] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: there's a daily every day
[09:22] <HiddenWolf> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20060908/ has ppc and a64 only
[09:22] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: indeed.
[09:22] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: i386 is too old. everyone buys amd64 now ;)
[09:23] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: ah. my bad. :)
[09:26] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: it tries to pick up the wrong kernel for some reason.
[09:26] <HiddenWolf> Ah, I can see how that would complicate things.
[09:30] <Mithrandir> trying a rebuild now
[09:31] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: also, thanks for spotting this.
[09:32] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir: :)
[09:32] <dholbach> good morning
[09:32] <Mithrandir> morning, Daniel
[09:32] <dholbach> hey Tollef
[09:37] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: there, fixed.
[09:37] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir: wow, talk about fast service. :)
[09:39] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: no point in waiting, is there? ;-)
[09:39] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, :)
[09:49] <Mithrandir> there, fixed kubuntu, edubuntu and xubuntu too.
[09:58] <dholbach> HAPPY REVU DAY!
[10:03] <pitti> Good morning
[10:06] <Hobbsee> hey pitti!
[10:06] <Hobbsee> morning jono 
[10:06] <jono> hey Hobbsee :)
[10:06] <Kagou> hi
[10:17] <doko> The following packages where automatically installed and are no longer required:
[10:17] <doko> gdm 
[10:19] <Hobbsee> heh
[10:19] <Hobbsee> doko: it's telling you to come over to the dark side!  :D
[10:20] <doko> ohh, that was just one of the 100 packages that were suggested ;)
[10:20] <Hobbsee> doko: what, the rest of gnome?  smart apt.
[10:22] <doko> The following packages where automatically installed and are no longer required:
[10:22] <doko>   ispell linux-headers-2.6.17-6 wamerican ekiga xcursor-themes xfonts-75dpi pnm2ppa gthumb wogerman ttf-kochi-mincho libdirectfb-0.9-24
[10:22] <doko>   ttf-thai-tlwg xfonts-scalable cdparanoia libwvstreams4.2-extras ubuntu-docs thunderbird-locale-en-gb libxplc0.3.13 wvdial xsane pkg-config
[10:22] <doko>   mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb gnome-volume-manager libpt-plugins-alsa libopal-2.2.0 doc-base brltty-x11 libbtctl2 gdebi vnc-common
[10:22] <doko>   libuniconf4.2 ttf-mgopen esound ttf-gentium rhythmbox xterm gstreamer0.10-plugins-base-apps iogerman readahead ttf-indic-fonts ubuntu-sounds
[10:22] <doko>   mozilla-firefox-locale-de-de screen bc dc language-selector-common cupsys-driver-gutenprint ttf-kochi-gothic libgnutls12 libpt-plugins-v4l
[10:22] <doko>   xsane-common ttf-punjabi-fonts scim fortune-mod libgpod0 libscim8c2a ttf-lao libtasn1-2 ttf-devanagari-fonts libsdl1.2debian-alsa wswiss
[10:22] <doko>   language-selector ttf-gujarati-fonts librecode0 ttf-arabeyes hal-device-manager ttf-telugu-fonts xbitmaps hotkey-setup xvncviewer
[10:22] <doko>   libsdl1.2debian ttf-bengali-fonts gdm xfonts-base screensaver-default-images libpt-1.10.0 gok linux-headers-2.6.17-6-amd64-generic
[10:22] <doko>   gnome-spell ttf-arphic-uming bittorrent python-xml contact-lookup-applet tsclient rdesktop scim-gtk2-immodule vino gimp-help-common wngerman
[10:22] <doko>   xserver-xorg ttf-malayalam-fonts xfonts-100dpi gnome-btdownload gnome-cups-manager foomatic-db-hpijs libpt-plugins-v4l2 nautilus-sendto
[10:22] <jamesh> have you lost ubuntu-desktop?
[10:22] <doko>   ttf-tamil-fonts gimp-help-de foo2zjs diveintopython example-content hwdb-client landscape-client python-gst0.10 ingerman liboobs-1-0 slocate
[10:22] <doko>   xorg fortunes-min ttf-baekmuk gstreamer0.10-tools libgnomebt0 ttf-kannada-fonts linux-headers-amd64-generic libopenobex-1.0-0
[10:22] <doko>   ttf-arphic-ukai wbritish ssh-askpass-gnome tangerine-icon-theme libwvstreams4.2-base libxp6 min12xxw ttf-oriya-fonts libgnomecupsui1.0-1c2a
[10:22] <pitti> argh, the paste monster is back
[10:22] <doko>   thunderbird-locale-de firefox-gnome-support bluez-pin serpentine scim-modules-socket lftp
[10:23] <Hobbsee> is that just outputting everything you havent specifically installed?  guess there arent enough libs there
[10:23] <pygi> pitti, you have a sec? :)
[10:23] <pitti> pygi: sure
[10:23] <pygi> pitti, it seems libburn will work on freebsd soon, I have a working diff ^_^
[10:26] <pitti> cool
[10:27] <pygi> 1246 lines diff :P
[10:35] <HiddenWolf> Kamion: ping
[10:45] <HiddenWolf> iwj: ping
[10:45] <HiddenWolf> iwj: unping, sorry. :/
[10:48] <HiddenWolf> mvo, ping (wondering if oddness is due to command-not-found)
[10:50] <seb128> cbx33: did you open a pessulus bug with that patch?
[10:50] <seb128> "There are currently no open bugs." for the pessulus package according to launchpad
[10:50] <mvo> HiddenWolf: what odness in particualr?
[10:52] <HiddenWolf> mvo: from the livecd I tried pppoeconf on the command line (which is not on the cd) and I got: "This option is not available. Please see --help for all possible usages"
[10:52] <cbx33> seb128: I thought you wanted the patch for the gconf thing....I have repackaged pessulus.....you can check the diff here..... http://progbox.co.uk/main-additions/
[10:52] <cbx33> if you want me to extract the patch I can
[10:53] <seb128> why "repackaged pessulus", again
[10:53] <seb128> I asked the other day you didn't reply
[10:53] <seb128> you don't want that change to Ubuntu?
[10:53] <seb128> you prefer to keep repackaging it for yourself only?
[10:53] <cbx33> no
[10:53] <cbx33> sorry seb128 
[10:53] <cbx33> I'll get you the patch and raise a bug
[10:54] <seb128> you spoke about feature freeze yesterday, that was for the gconf change?
[10:54] <cbx33> no...that was for the pessulus patch
[10:54] <seb128> that's not coherent
[10:54] <seb128> you asked if I reviewed a patch and you also say you didn't send it
[10:55] <cbx33> I gave you that url a few days ago...
[10:55] <cbx33> but I will send it through in proper format to LP now
[10:55] <cbx33> I apologise for the miscommunication on my part
[10:55] <seb128> and I asked to open a bug with the patch ;)
[10:55] <cbx33> i thought you meant for gconf
[10:55] <seb128> k, no problem
[10:55] <cbx33> my apologies again
[10:55] <cbx33> sorry seb128
[10:55] <seb128> please open a pessulus bug with the patch
[10:55] <cbx33> I will do it now
[10:56] <seb128> it's better to organise the work ;)
[10:56] <HiddenWolf> mvo: http://hiddenwolf.org/files/Screenshot.png
[10:56] <seb128> thank you
[10:57] <cbx33> seb128, what do you want me to do about the gconf path file modification?
[10:57] <seb128> open a bug?
[10:58] <cbx33> ok
[11:01] <pitti> hi janimo!
[11:03] <mvo> HiddenWolf: is this on the live-cd?
[11:03] <HiddenWolf> mvo: yes
[11:03] <janimo> pitti: hi
[11:04] <mvo> HiddenWolf: can you please do: "dpkg -l command-not-found" ?
[11:05] <zyga> login sound is great :)
[11:05] <HiddenWolf> mvo: if I reboot to the livecd, yeah, sure. Other info you need?
[11:06] <zyga> hey mvo, sorry I had no time to fix the parser yesterday
[11:06] <zyga> I will have plenty of time during the weekend
[11:06] <mvo> zyga: cool, thanks
[11:07] <mvo> HiddenWolf: but the screenshot is from the live-cd? I don't think we have command-not-found installed there, so I doubt it is the reason for the problem
[11:07] <mvo> HiddenWolf: but the screenshot looks very odd
[11:08] <HiddenWolf> mvo: screenshot is from today's daily-live
[11:08] <zyga> mvo: huh?
[11:08] <zyga> any problems I should know of?
[11:09] <cbx33> seb128: please find bug with attached patch
[11:09] <mvo> zyga:  http://hiddenwolf.org/files/Screenshot.png 
[11:10] <mvo> zyga: but I don't think we install command-not-found on the live-cd yet
[11:10] <zyga> that's not the output of cnf
[11:10] <zyga> I don
[11:10] <zyga> I don't have an idea what prints that kind of messages
[11:11] <HiddenWolf> For the record, pppoeconf should not be found, or throw an error about needing root if it was installed.
[11:12] <cbx33> seb128: I'll brb
[11:12] <seb128> cbx33: k, I'm looking at the patch right now
[11:13] <HiddenWolf> mvo: zyga, I'm hesitant to file a bug without even knowing the correct package. Do you have any suggestions?
[11:14] <zyga> HiddenWolf: hmm, grep sudo for that message, if not found then file it on pppoeconf
[11:14] <mvo> HiddenWolf: I update the daily desktop cd now and see if I can reproduce it
[11:15] <cbx33> seb128: I'm so sorry about the mix up
[11:15] <cbx33> ;)
[11:15] <cbx33> brb
[11:15] <seb128> iwj: you wanted to do some changes to nautilus before the upload or just wanted the .dsc/.diff.gz to have a look? Said differently, should I upload the update
[11:15] <seb128> cbx33: np
[11:15] <HiddenWolf> mvo: ok, I'll wait for you, considering I have no network on livecds. :)
[11:16] <pitti> mvo: mmmm, 'Enable sharing' :)
[11:16] <pitti> mvo: works well here
[11:18] <pitti> mvo: except for some bug in enable_sharing, but that's my fault
[11:20] <pitti> doko, seb128: FWIW, OO.o file dialog works just fine on latest edgy
[11:20] <pitti> (for me)
[11:21] <doko> pitti, was this the machine, where you did upgrade to the 2.0.4 packages?
[11:21] <zyga> guys, where did the smp kernels go?
[11:22] <zyga> I've got an uniprocessor kernel now
[11:22] <pitti> doko: oh, I'm on 2.0.3-4ubuntu2-1 (amd64 latest edgy)
[11:22] <janimo> pitti: do you know if the default printer setting is better set in /etc/cups/printers.conf or in ~/.cups/lpoptions? RH's tool uses the former we have the latter
[11:23] <janimo> they are not the same format so they do not cascade as usual /etc ~/ configs
[11:24] <zyga> mvo: did you get my message about g-a-i?
[11:25] <mvo> zyga: no?
[11:25] <mvo> zyga: what is it about?
[11:26] <pitti> janimo: my feeling is that every user should have her own
[11:28] <Tonio_> hi everyone
[11:28] <HiddenWolf> pitti: depends on the setup. I can image that if there is only one printer, everyone would use the same settings, considering there is only one way the thing can be properly configured.
[11:29] <pitti> HiddenWolf: how so?
[11:29] <pitti> HiddenWolf: some people might want 'draft' b/w by default, some high quality with colors
[11:29] <pitti> HiddenWolf: and different paper formats, etc.
[11:29] <pitti> HiddenWolf: also, different people might have different default printers
[11:29] <Tonio_> pitti: we would like digikam to get into main, and we wrote a maininclusionreport for this, but I just saw it still has 2 universe deps, should we write 2 other maininclusionreports or can all be done in the same page to make it more simple ?
[11:30] <HiddenWolf> pitti: right. :)
[11:30] <pitti> Tonio_: please write one MIR for each source package
[11:30] <Tonio_> pitti: thanks for the info
[11:30] <pitti> no problem
[11:30] <Tonio_> pitti: may I ping you concerning this when it's done ?
[11:31] <pitti> Tonio_: I'll get notified by email
[11:31] <pitti> but sure, you can ping me, too
[11:31] <Tonio_> ah ! perfect, thanks :)
[11:31] <HiddenWolf> pitti: when will 1.2.3 be in? I was planning to file some bugs on cups later. (have to use us-legal papersize on a4 paper to avoid having parts fall off the page on dapper)
[11:31] <pitti> HiddenWolf: I'm just building the final source package
[11:31] <pitti> thus, in a few hours
[11:32] <HiddenWolf> cheers.
[11:32] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: yes?
[11:34] <HiddenWolf> Kamion: two things, I just filed a bug about an option for pppoeconf network configuration in ubiquity, and today's daily showed an incorrect language list that you might want to look into: http://hiddenwolf.org/files/Screenshot.png (note missing fonts and "No Localization")
[11:35] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: you're free to file wishlists of course, but it's very low down the list
[11:35] <giftnudel> HiddenWolf, Kamion: the missing font was with knot-2 also
[11:35] <giftnudel> iirc
[11:35] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: I'm aware of the missing font
[11:35] <giftnudel> ok
[11:35] <Kamion> it's just for Dzongkha IIRC
[11:35] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: "No localization" is sort of deliberate, although maybe should be sorted to the bottom
[11:36] <Kamion> there clearly ought to be an option to install in the C locale
[11:36] <HiddenWolf> It just looks odd this way.
[11:36] <giftnudel> Kamion: it should be first I think
[11:36] <pitti> 'Theme incompatible with usplash_bogl' -- hmm
[11:37] <Kamion> giftnudel: I can see your argument, but I think with ubiquity's target audience it should be last
[11:38] <giftnudel> ok
[11:38] <giftnudel> Kamion: it doesn't matter anyway, the people that want it will look for it
[11:46] <cbx33> why when I apt-get upgrade are some files kept back
[11:47] <cbx33> mornin sabdfl 
[11:47] <cbx33> some great feedback on the sounds ;)
[11:49] <pygi> cbx33, ;)
[11:49] <pygi> cbx33, I should get a cable so we can record real music :)
[11:49] <HiddenWolf> cbx33: yeah, they rock, but are a bit long-ish. :)
[11:50] <pygi> HiddenWolf, ;)
[11:50] <Hobbsee> hey sabdfl 
[11:50] <cbx33> HiddenWolf: some other people have said that too
[11:50] <cbx33> damn you guys making gnome start quicker :p
[11:50] <iwj> seb128: I wanted it for my testing.  So, I built it, and ran it, and it worked as I hoped.  There are no more changes needed from me.
[11:50] <pygi> cbx33, lol :)
[11:50] <seb128> iwj: ok, thank you
[11:51] <HiddenWolf> cbx33: well, they're exactly long enough for the livecd here. :)
[11:51] <cbx33> seb128: did the patch seem ok?
[11:51] <seb128> cbx33: not really
[11:51] <cbx33> oh ok
[11:51] <cbx33> HiddenWolf: that's cool seeing as most people first impression will be of the live cd
[11:52] <seb128> cbx33: I talked with vuntz who think you should create a new class for using gconftool instead of mixing that in the middle of the existing one
[11:52] <seb128> cbx33: is that something that would be needed for edgy?
[11:52] <cbx33> ah
[11:52] <cbx33> seb128: Ideally yes....
[11:52] <cbx33> SCP has just gotten the pessulus integration as per the spec
[11:53] <seb128> what SCP is BTW?
[11:53] <cbx33> Student Control Panel
[11:53] <seb128> I don't know about it neither the spec
[11:53] <cbx33> brb
[11:54] <pygi> seaLne, SCP rocks :)
[11:54] <pygi> seb128, *
[11:54] <seb128> pygi: ?
[11:54] <seb128> ah
[11:54] <pygi> what? :)
[11:55] <cbx33> seb128: did you want a whole new class, or just seperate functions within the gconfapplier class?
[11:55] <seb128> pygi: I didn't get what you wanted by saying "*" first :p
[11:55] <seb128> cbx33: ask vuntz ;)
[11:55] <cbx33> ok...
[12:01] <vuntz> seb128: can the patch be integrated after feature freeze?
[12:02] <vuntz> seb128: if it's not possible, I believe it's good to integrate it now (since it works and doesn't affect standard desktops
[12:02] <vuntz> then cbx33 can fix the issues in the next few weeks
[12:02] <cbx33> I surely will
[12:02] <cbx33> can we integrate now...and still fix after
[12:02] <cbx33> so I can ask peopel tobeta test?
[12:03] <seb128> vuntz: yeah, what I thought to
[12:03] <seb128> too
[12:06] <pitti> *** YOU'RE USING autoconf (GNU Autoconf) 2.60.
[12:06] <pitti> *** Scribus requires autoconf 2.53 or newer
[12:07] <pitti> I learned in school that 2.60 > 2.53
[12:07] <lifeless> ahahahaha
[12:07] <lifeless> thats not autoconf, its a fucked macro in scribus, almost for sure
[12:07] <pitti> lifeless: sure, I just love to bitch about autotools
[12:07] <lifeless> :)
[12:11] <pygi> pitti, lol :)
[12:12] <Hobbsee> ugh, that.
[12:13] <Hobbsee> heh
[12:13] <pygi> Hobbsee, what? :)
[12:14] <Hobbsee> pygi: pitti's comment
[12:14] <pygi> ah well :)
[12:17] <Tonio_> pitti: hehe, that's very common with kde packages, and the problem is generally in admin/cvs.sh
[12:17] <pitti> Tonio_: I already fixed cvs.sh
[12:17] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: that's what i thought.  read the error again.
[12:17] <pitti> Tonio_: it's still complaining
[12:17] <Tonio_> pitti: just export AUTOCONF=autoconf
[12:17] <Tonio_> isn't that working ?
[12:18] <Riddell> pitti: it needs two lines updated, for autoconf and autoheader
[12:18] <pitti> Tonio_: not if I'm reading admin/detect-autoconf.sh correctly, but let me try
[12:18] <Tonio_> this generally does the trick for me
[12:18] <Riddell> pitti: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/kubuntu_00_autoconf2.60.diff
[12:18] <pitti> Riddell: aah, right, that's it
[12:19] <pitti> thanks
[12:30] <ogra> hmm, where do 30 MB on my i386 CD come from ?
[12:32] <seb128> pitti: how soon will we hade ddeb?
[12:32] <Hobbsee> ogra: i ate some of the packages.  sorry about that :P
[12:33] <ogra> Hobbsee, if you ate them they would have disappeared ... unless my logic is wrong :)
[12:33] <Kamion> pitti: not at all, thanks
[12:33] <Hobbsee> ogra: argh.  oops.
[12:33] <Hobbsee> ogra: your logic is definetly wrong, yes :P
[12:33] <ogra> but my (i386 only) CD grew by 30M
[12:34] <seb128> pitti: you dropped cups dbg package so you must have an idea, no? ;)
[12:34] <Kamion> mjg59: console-tools 1:0.2.3dbs-62ubuntu6 fixes the VT switch in console-screen.sh/setupcon, which I understand made life awkward for usplash
[12:34] <pitti> seb128: next week, I hope
[12:34] <seb128> pitti: said differently, should be drop dbg packages for GNOME too now?
[12:34] <seb128> cool
[12:34] <pitti> seb128: no, that would be too hasty; I just wanted to avoid going through NEW
[12:34] <seb128> ok
[12:35] <pitti> seb128: and cups generally doesn't crash often, it just doesn't work most of the time :)
[12:35] <seb128> right ;)
[12:35] <pitti> seb128: (i. e. most of the time when it doesn't work, it's not due to a crash)
[12:39] <Nerm> morning
[12:39] <Nerm> is there a nice repo or something for getting gnome 2.16 on dapper ?
[12:39] <seb128> Nerm: edgy
[12:40] <Nerm> ah.. hmm..
[12:40] <seb128> Nerm: you can't get stable and new crack at the same time
[12:40] <Nerm> yes this is true - it's a work machine though so it needs to be reasonably stable... is edgy.. usable ?
[12:40] <Hobbsee> Nerm: no.  wait a fwe months
[12:40] <Nerm> ok :)
[12:40] <pygi> Hobbsee, few months, lol :)
[12:41] <seb128> Nerm: I would say it's ok for daily use
[12:41] <Nermal> seb128: I'll wait - nothing I really need in gnome 2.16 
[12:41] <seb128> ok
[12:47] <seb128> ogra, cbx33: I've just uploaded pessulus with that patch so it can get testing, feel free to make the patch better anyway ;)
[12:48] <ogra> yay \o/
[12:48] <jsgotangco> yay
[12:49] <ogra> so it looks like we really could get student control panel in edubuntu edgy :))))
[12:49] <ogra> hey sabdfl 
[12:49] <seb128> ogra: cool
[12:51] <cbx33> thanks you so much seb128 
[12:51] <seb128> np
[12:51] <seb128> thank you for the work on that ;)
[12:57] <Riddell> Kamion: should I be worried if kubuntu/dvd can't install xorg in the daily CD checks?
[01:00] <Kamion> Riddell: you should at least investigate to find out why
[01:01] <Kamion> might just be out-of-date binaries though
[01:05] <jordi> whiprush: nice post :)
[01:14] <coyctecm> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/29584
[01:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 29584 in metacity "False reports of "Window not responding" error" [Medium,Needs info]  
[01:14] <coyctecm> any progress with that?
[01:14] <coyctecm> it happens amd64 nut not with x86 box
[01:15] <coyctecm> dapper+latest updates
[01:15] <HiddenWolf> coyctecm: if there was any progress, it'd be on the bug report
[01:25] <gomek> Anyone here have much experience with customizing the ubuntu install cds?  (Stupid question, I know, but...)
[01:25] <gomek> I think a better question to ask would be whether anyone is awake!
[01:26] <gomek> Would the other person be "administrator"?
[01:26] <pygi> gomek, !!! 
[01:26] <pygi> gomek, use Reconstructor for live cds, and this is not the right channel :)
[01:26] <gomek> Which channel would be the correct one?
[01:26] <coyctecm> HiddenWolf: yes i could try to fix it, thought i have no clue what to look
[01:26] <gomek> You greet me as if you know me, pygi!  How welcoming.  ^_^
[01:27] <mneptok> #teach-me-distro-creation
[01:27] <mneptok> :P
[01:27] <gomek> bah, you made me actually join that channel
[01:27] <pygi> gomek, lol, just a sec pls :)
[01:28] <gomek> thanks much pygi
[01:28] <pygi> gomek, http://reconstructor.aperantis.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
[01:28] <pygi> otherwise #ubuntu :)
[01:28] <whiprush> thanks jordi 
[01:28] <pygi> gomek, you have docs there also on how to use it :)
[01:28] <gomek> ah.  my problem, though, is in completely stripping gnome from ubuntu.
[01:29] <gomek> from that webpage: Reconstructor does not create separate distros.
[01:29] <Hobbsee> infinity: ping?
[01:29] <pygi> gomek, you can remove ubuntu-desktop package
[01:30] <pygi> gomek, page lies :)
[01:30] <gomek> that's only a metapackage
[01:30] <pygi> gomek, well, and all it's deps :P
[01:30] <gomek> could i remove, like, everything, then install ubuntu-base?
[01:31] <HiddenWolf> gomek: try something like debfoster
[01:31] <pygi> gomek, probably yes, but #ubuntu pls :)
[01:31] <gomek> alright, i'll try #ubuntu, but what if they send me back to #ubuntu-devel?  haha
[01:32] <coyctecm> no they won't
[01:32] <gomek> alright, thanks for the help, then.  ^^
[01:54] <Hobbsee> mvo: have you seen bug 59311?  there's a fix there, whenever you feel like implementing it
[01:54] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 59311 in update-manager "update-manager crashes when /var/log/dist-upgrade doesn't exist" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59311
[01:54] <mvo> Hobbsee: thanks, I'm a bit swamped currently, but I will get to it today
[01:55] <Hobbsee> mvo: cool.  okay.  did you have other fixes to make to update-manager, or just that one?
[01:55] <mvo> Hobbsee: the fix needs to be done in the dist-uprader I presume, that one uploaded seperately to a special target. otherwise I would be fine with you having a look
[01:56] <Hobbsee> mvo: gotcha, okay.
[01:56] <mvo> but thanks for offering your help!
[01:56] <Hobbsee> i was going to give it a shot
[01:56] <Hobbsee> before i go and rant at a couple of people.
[01:58] <HiddenWolf> mvo: did you check the livecd?
[01:59] <Hobbsee> make that 3 people.
[02:00] <Hobbsee> the people-Hobbsee-will-rant-at list is growing!
[02:00] <pygi> Hobbsee, ble =)
[02:00] <Hobbsee> :P
[02:01] <slomo> Hobbsee: oh, i hope i'm not on that list? ;)
[02:01] <Hobbsee> slomo: not currently :)
[02:01] <Hobbsee> slomo: want me to find something?
[02:21] <zyga> mvo: ping
[02:23] <mvo> hello zyga
[02:23] <mvo> HiddenWolf: not yet
[02:23] <mvo> iwj: gnome-app-install should be fixed, I would appreciate if you could check that it works for you too
[02:25] <zyga> mvo: is there any project to upgrade the format of .deb packages?
[02:28] <mvo> zyga: upgrade as in ? 
[02:29] <zyga> mvo: such as improved binary format for various reasons
[02:30] <mvo> zyga: like what? new compression methods? something else than ar?
[02:30] <zyga> mvo: yeah something like that
[02:30] <zyga> mvo: more extensibility perhaps
[02:31] <zyga> any project that aims to develop deb+1 is fine with me :)
[02:31] <wasabi_> I don't particularily see anything wrong with teh current packages.
[02:31] <wasabi_> Obvioulsy I'd like to see new FEATURES, such as file class tags.
[02:31] <zyga> wasabi_: they are fine but it's hard to add anything and they have some drawbacks like random access or even efficient file listing
[02:32] <zyga> (actually I'd love to see the death of 99% of postinst prerm and such but that is a major change and would require debian blessing)
[02:32] <wasabi_> I like the extensibility being in scripts.
[02:32] <zyga> only 1% of packages _really_ need those scripts and they are a pain in our collective ass
[02:32] <wasabi_> It means we don't need a new package format for every minor change.
[02:33] <zyga> wasabi_: scripts are not declarative, we mostly use them for declarative purposes which sucks badly
[02:33] <zyga> wasabi_: I do not propose to REMOVE them, just limit the real need for them
[02:33] <zyga> all crucial packages probably need them :)
[02:37] <zyga> wasabi_: I for one would welcome all info, man, and other regstered by a wrapper around dpkg
[02:37] <zyga> this is a good thing actually as the packages are more compatible and more roboust (can be easily validated)
[02:38] <mneptok> screw it, let's go to .rpm
[02:39] <pygi> lol
[02:39] <zyga> mneptok: rpm suffers from the same issues :P
[02:39] <pygi> let's not :)
[02:39] <zyga> mneptok: I know you were not serious ;-)
[02:39] <mneptok> and, apparently, i didn't. so here it is. </sarcasm>
[02:40] <mneptok> zyga: my reputation as a complete loon makes it hard for me tell when people know i'm joking :)
[02:43] <gnomefreak> who is best person to speak to about apt?
[02:44] <pitti> gnomefreak: mvo 
[02:44] <pygi> gnomefreak, mvo ^_^
[02:44] <gnomefreak> ok ty
[02:44] <pygi> gnomefreak, #synaptic
[02:45] <jdong> who's the best person to annoy in the interest of seeking revenge for this application crash report dialog that keeps smacking me in the face? ;)
[02:45] <jdong> seriously, that's some art of annoyance :)
[02:45] <pygi> jdong, I forgot who do we bug about all the bugs this week :)
[02:45] <gnomefreak> jdong: :) fix whats crashing
[02:46] <jdong> I've got a better fix
[02:46] <elmo> is there some way to recursively flatten the depends of a a package?
[02:46] <gnomefreak> ut oh
[02:46] <StevenK> elmo: Doesn't germinate do that?
[02:46] <StevenK> elmo: Or are you talking in a general case?
[02:47] <elmo> StevenK: general case - and I also didn't think germinate did flatten it all the way down
[02:47] <elmo> but maybe I'm wrong - it's been a while
[02:48] <StevenK> elmo: I can't think of anything in a general case.
[02:49] <pitti> elmo: oh, the depends, not the rdepends---doesn't apt-cache dotty do that?
[02:50] <pitti> elmo: also, apt-rdepends' description seems to indicate that it can do forward dependencies, too
[02:51] <elmo> pitti: ah, hmm, thanks
[02:52] <xav> can you think about anything that could explain a 50% 3d performance drop in either debian or ubuntu ?
[02:53] <jdong> crimsun: ping?
[02:53] <xav> afaik, using the same version of X, mesa, and the games I'm trying
[02:53] <jdong> xav: 50% compared to what?
[02:54] <xav> the only difference I can think about is 686 optimization, but I'm not even sure ubuntu doesn't have it
[02:54] <xav> jdong: compared to other distrib
[02:54] <jdong> k
[02:54] <mjg59> How are you measuring performance?
[02:54] <jdong> 686 optimization or cflags cannot possibly explain a 50% performance difference
[02:55] <xav> mjg59: by checking the fps right after the games start, using default settings
[02:55] <Hobbsee> infinity: unping
[02:55] <mjg59> And which chipset is this?
[02:55] <xav> I don't need to check fps, it's so easy to feel it. using intel 855gm crap
[02:56] <xav> I don't think there is such a difference on other box, with other cards
[02:57] <xav> I'm less sure about that though
[02:58] <xav> jdong: right, I could hardly believe that
[02:58] <jdong> could be something with the i810 drivers, or dri....
[02:58] <jdong> funny thing is, I have a 855GM in my other laptop
[02:59] <jdong> and it feels fine in Ubuntu compared to Fedora/RHEL4
[02:59] <jdong> I haven't tried any other distros
[02:59] <xav> in 3d games?
[02:59] <jdong> if you count chromium bsu as a 3d game :D
[02:59] <jdong> I'm not gonna try to run ut2004 on an 855gm
[03:00] <xav> no, the one that it can just run
[03:00] <xav> ie slow but playable, just at the limit :)
[03:00] <xav> eg ppracer or flightgear
[03:05] <iwj> mvo: Ah, thanks.  Where is the version I should be testing ?  Your bzr ?
[03:10] <xav> oh my god, I feel so stupid, I forgot one of the most important factor, and that was the reason..
[03:13] <ogra> hmm, weird ...
[03:13] <ogra> i have a script that i run on ltsp clients on boot ...
[03:13] <ogra> while true; do
[03:13] <ogra>         if [ -S /tmp/.ltspfs-socket ] ; then
[03:13] <ogra> ... do something ...
[03:13] <ogra>         else
[03:14] <ogra>                 sleep 10
[03:14] <ogra>         fi
[03:14] <ogra> done
[03:14] <mvo> iwj: in the archive 
[03:14] <ogra> it always dies after the second run ...
[03:14] <mvo> iwj: all the local testing was good so I did the upload
[03:14] <ogra> anybod an idea ? 
[03:15] <pitti> ogra: it dies in 'do something'?
[03:15] <ogra> no
[03:15] <ogra> it dies in sleep
[03:15] <ogra> thats the weird part 
[03:15] <StevenK> ogra: Can you run it with -x ?
[03:15] <pitti> ogra: urgh?
[03:15] <ogra> good idea
[03:16] <pitti> in general it's a very good idea to write all shell scripts with #!/bin/sh -e
[03:17] <ogra> hmm, nothing special there ...
[03:17] <ogra> i see it checking for the socket and doing the sleep
[03:17] <ogra> twice
[03:17] <ogra> then it dies
[03:17] <pitti> ogra: i. e. sleep exits with != 0?
[03:17] <StevenK> pitti: That's what I'm thinking
[03:18] <ogra> well ... how could that be ? 
[03:18] <pitti> sleep is not a bash builtin at least
[03:18] <pitti> ogra: s/sleep strace -f -o /tmp/sleep.trace sleep 10
[03:18] <ogra> i'm using sh in the start process 
[03:18] <pitti> erm,
[03:18] <StevenK> pitti: Hah
[03:18] <pitti> ogra: s_sleep_strace -f -o /tmp/sleep.trace sleep 10_
[03:20] <ogra> hmm 
[03:20] <ogra> looks ok
[03:22] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/sleep.trace
[03:23] <pitti> ogra: ok, where *exactly* dies it?
[03:23] <StevenK> ogra: Can you throw the -x trace somewhere?
[03:23] <iwj> mvo: OK, I'll take a look, thanks.
[03:23] <iwj> But I have to have lunch now :-).
[03:23] <ogra> thats tricky
[03:23] <ogra> it doesnt die if i start it from commandline after the boot
[03:23] <ogra> so a simple redirec doesnt work
[03:24] <StevenK> I've never quite figured out how to get -x to spit into a file
[03:24] <ogra> right
[03:24] <StevenK> And re'exec'ing shell scripts can do wacky stuff
[03:24] <ogra> i'll try to modify the initscript that starts it
[03:24] <ogra> to redirect somewhere ...
[03:25] <zyga> mvo which you is you?
[03:25] <zyga> mvo: I'd like to PM you 
[03:29] <ogra> hrm 
[03:30] <ogra> it doesnt die if i dont background it 
[03:30] <ogra> originally i call it with an & attached
[03:30] <ogra> if i drop the & it runs and runs
[03:31] <ogra> how weird
[03:31] <popey> cbx33: ping
[03:31] <zyga> mvo_: ^^ ?
[03:32] <bddebian> Heya folks
[03:37] <cbx33> pong popey 
[03:37] <mvo_> zyga: I'm this one
[03:37] <zyga> mvo_: ok
[03:39] <ogra> aha !
[03:40] <ogra> if i run it from rc2 instead of rcS it works ....
[03:41] <ogra> the only thing that runs between these two scripts is S90console-screen.sh ...
[03:47] <jdong> mjg59: I only get 16 colors with usplash :(... it looks very weird right now :)
[03:52] <zyga> mvo: do you see anything I wrote? I'm not sure if gaim handles renaming users right...
[03:52] <jdong> ok, gnome... this isn't funny.... I'd like to change some printer settings before I print, please....
[03:53] <Hobbsee> jdong: you cant.  it's called simplicity :P
[03:54] <jdong> lol
[03:54] <StevenK> jdong: Consider yourself lucky Gnome didn't remove the Print button!
[03:54] <jdong> so I have to open up the Cups manager, change the settings, print, then change the settings back....
[03:54] <jdong> yeah, that's simple
[03:54] <jdong> that's usability
[03:54] <ogra> jdong, patches accepted ;)
[03:54] <StevenK> jdong: They want it to appear as simple as Windows.
[03:55] <jdong> ogra: apt-get install kprinter works faster for me :)
[03:55] <jdong> or does gnome not let me print to stdout
[03:55] <ogra> but the prob will never get fixed that way :)
[03:55] <Amaranth> i thought the print dialog in edgy was a lot better
[03:55] <jdong> Amaranth: that's what I was told, too
[03:55] <jdong> Amaranth: but gedit's print dialog looks exactly the same
[03:56] <mneptok> Amaranth: yeah, it now has an actual "Screw This" button
[03:56] <Hobbsee> :D
[03:56] <jdong> ogra: wouldn't patches that add more options to the print dialog get rejected anyway? :P
[03:56] <ogra> depends on the options :P
[03:56] <Amaranth> weird, i remember epiphany and gedit were both supposed to be using the new gtk printing stuff but they have completely different dialogs here
[03:57] <jdong> ogra: I want the cups printer property page accessible from the print dialog
[03:57] <Amaranth> and i've never printed from linux/gnome before
[03:57] <jdong> ogra: I'd like to print my pictures at higher than default resolution, please :)
[03:57] <Amaranth> so i have no idea which one is new :P
[03:57] <zyga> ogra: did you find the SIGSEGV that happens outside of C locale? :D
[03:57] <ogra> zyga, aha
[03:57] <ogra> is there a bug about it ? 
[03:58] <zyga> ogra: it's a bug in gettext 
[03:58] <ogra> ah, ok
[03:58] <ogra> its evil 
[03:58] <zyga> ogra: something with PRIuMAX and such macros that should be expanded by gettext
[03:58] <zyga> I didn't file a bug but I did let the upstream of dd know about that a long time ago
[03:58] <jdong> Amaranth: so, now there's two different gnome print dialogs?
[03:59] <Amaranth> either that or epiphany always had it's own dialog
[03:59] <zyga> (gettext supports those macros but there is an apparent bug :)
[04:00] <Amaranth> iirc the gtk+ dialog was supposed to be generated from your ppd file (filtered or something i'd guess)
[04:00] <pitti> slomo: renice'ing apport to +5 works wonderful
[04:00] <pitti> slomo: thanks for the idea
[04:01] <mvo> zyga: probably freenodes policy. I'm away for a bit
[04:01] <mjg59> jdong: You will do until there's new artowkr
[04:01] <mvo> zyga: lets talk in 1h
[04:01] <zyga> mvo: ok
[04:01] <jdong> mjg59: I mean, the current usplash, the gradients are all garbled colors
[04:01] <jdong> mjg59: the other laptop does smooth gradients and correct colors
[04:02] <jdong> so I'm thinking it's some sort of video mode problem?
[04:02] <Amaranth> jdong: usplash works for you? lucky
[04:02] <mjg59> Nngh.
[04:02] <jdong> Amaranth: only on one of my laptops
[04:02] <mjg59> If usplash /doesn't/ work for people, could they *please* let me know?
[04:02] <ogra> usplash works totally fine on thin clients ....
[04:02] <mjg59> Since it does now in theory
[04:02] <ogra> get thin clients people !
[04:02] <Amaranth> mjg59: there is a bug that i figured was similar enough
[04:02] <Amaranth> bug filed, i mean
[04:03] <mjg59> Amaranth: Which is?
[04:03] <Amaranth> it looks like usplash does something weird to make me have huge fonts then crashes
[04:03] <pitti> mjg59: I just did a clean installation of today's ppc/alternate, no usplash love there
[04:03] <mjg59> What hardware is this, and what version?
[04:03] <mjg59> pitti: Yeah, sorry, PPC is known broken
[04:03] <mjg59> Fix is straightforward
[04:03] <pitti> mjg59: however, it still has -16
[04:04] <pitti> tomorrow's CD images should be more recent
[04:04] <dholbach> doko: karma-for-uploads is not implemented yet :-p
[04:04] <Amaranth> mjg59: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/57694
[04:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 57694 in usplash "[edgy]  usplash fails to correctly restore text mode" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[04:05] <elmo> I assume it's too late to do a main/universe swap?
[04:05] <Amaranth> mjg59: it's an hp pavilion dv8000t laptop with a 1440x900 native resolution screen, using usplash 0.4-20
[04:05] <mjg59> Amaranth: Ok. That's not the same problem.
[04:05] <mjg59> Amaranth: What graphics chipset? What CPU?
[04:06] <Amaranth> core duo, nvidia geforce go 7400
[04:06] <mjg59> Right
[04:06] <mjg59> I have similar hardware here
[04:06] <mjg59> What was the last version of usplash you tried?
[04:06] <Amaranth> probably -18
[04:07] <Amaranth> want me to try it again?
[04:07] <iwj> mvo: That gnome-app-install works fine for me, thanks.  (Modulo some messages during the postinst, which I expect you know about.)
[04:07] <Amaranth> i didn't see anything in the changelog to make me thing it would work
[04:07] <mjg59> -18 fixed all known text mode issues
[04:08] <Windkracht8> Hello all
[04:08] <Amaranth> alright, i'll reboot
[04:08] <Amaranth> brb
[04:08] <Amaranth> ack, logout dialog won't come on
[04:08] <jdong> mjg59: so, any hints on why I only get 16 color gradients on the 256-color usplash?
[04:09] <jdong> core duo, ati mobility radeon x1400
[04:10] <Windkracht8> something I've seen, the update manager notification icon, isn't transparent
[04:10] <Windkracht8> does anyone know where to get the icon so I can make it transparent and send it to the developers? 
[04:12] <Amaranth> mjg59: so it no longer puts me in big text mode but i just get a regular text boot
[04:12] <Amaranth> i did see a flash of "file exists" or something before it cleared the screen
[04:19] <StevenK> Must have been something we said
[04:20] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:20] <Windkracht8> nobody knows where the update-notifier source code is?
[04:20] <jdong> apt-get source update-notifier?
[04:21] <jdong> bzr branch http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/update-notifier/main/
[04:21] <Windkracht8> thanks
[04:21] <jdong> np
[04:25] <Windkracht8> seems like they all ready made it transparent
[04:28] <Windkracht8> so Windkracht8 out, by all
[04:39] <Kamion> mjg59: oh, do you know what the powerpc problem is? I was about to start looking, having cleared out all state from my session that I'd be unhappy to lose
[04:39] <Kamion> (usplash)
[04:51] <ogra> who does initramfs atm ? 
[04:51] <ogra> infinity, ?
[04:51] <ogra> or Keybuk 
[05:07] <zyga> mvo: around?
[05:30] <zyga> mvo: last chance to be around before monday
[05:30] <mvo> zyga: sorry, I'm terrible busy right now
[05:30] <zyga> mvo: okay, till monday then
[05:30] <mvo> have a great weekend zyga!
[05:30] <zyga> have nice weekend everyone :)
[05:30] <zyga> bye
[05:34] <tortoise_> seb128: ping
[05:36] <seb128> tortoise_: pong, with context is better if you want to get a pong
[05:38] <tortoise_> seb128: am trying to write a patch for the gnome-at-properties-dialog in gnome-control-center.  I'm having some problems though with using dpatch-edit-patch on the package.
[05:38] <seb128> how so?
[05:38] <dholbach> sladen: what about your bcm2033-firmware upload to revu - is that still something you want to have in?
[05:38] <tortoise_> I've asked in #ubuntu-motu about this
[05:39] <tortoise_> rm -f debian/gnome-control-center.1
[05:39] <tortoise_> rm -rf /tmp/dpep-ref.F24980/control-center-2.16.0/debian/build
[05:39] <tortoise_> make: *** No rule to make target `unpatch'.  Stop.
[05:39] <zul> dholbach: uh...wouldnt that upset broadcom?
[05:39] <dholbach> zul: i have no idea about that stuff :)
[05:39] <zul> dholbach: neither do i :)
[05:40] <thom> more importantly is it at all distributable
[05:40] <zul> thom: thats what i meant
[05:40] <thom> well, they're two different things :-)
[05:40] <zul> yes yes
[05:41] <seb128> tortoise_: control-center doesn't use dpatch, it uses simple-patchsys
[05:41] <seb128> tortoise_: you can use cdbs-edit-patch
[05:41] <tortoise_> seb128: Also I've been trying to add some icons to the package and I get this error when building the package: 
[05:41] <tortoise_> capplets/accessibility/at-properties/at-settings.png: binary file contents changed 
[05:42] <tortoise_> Ok, thanks I'll read up on that
[05:42] <seb128> tortoise_: you can't change a .png file, the diff doesn't work on binary
[05:42] <seb128> tortoise_: you can to use uuencode if you really want to do that
[05:43] <tortoise_> seb128: Whats the proper way to add a pixmap to the package then?
[05:43] <seb128> tortoise_: uuencode
[05:44] <tortoise_> seb128: ok, thanks
[05:44] <seb128> np
[05:44] <dholbach> tortoise_: if you apt-get source ekiga you find an example for it
[05:48] <tortoise_> dholbach: thanks
[06:00] <Keybuk> Kamion: ping?
[06:08] <desrt> k.  i need feedback
[06:08] <desrt> if something fails to build inside pbuilder is it possibly my fault?
[06:09] <desrt> aside from running out of diskspace (of which i have 26GB free)
[06:09] <dholbach> desrt: what goes wrong?
[06:09] <dholbach> desrt: which error msg?
[06:09] <desrt> some generic error
[06:10] <desrt> lemme pastebin it
[06:10] <mdz> seb128, dholbach: how was the meeting about bugs?
[06:10] <desrt> http://pastebin.ca/164405
[06:11] <dholbach> mdz: oh I wanted to send the log to everybody who was there - do you want a copy too?
[06:11] <mdz> dholbach: please
[06:11] <_ion> I looked into the "usplash never comes up" problem a bit: e.g. /sbin/usplash -c -x 800 -y 600 shows the splash, but /sbin/usplash -c -x 1024 -y 768 says "screen init failed". /etc/usplash.conf seems to contain "xres=1024", "yres=768".
[06:11] <desrt> dholbach; i suppose it's within the realm of possibility that OO.o build uses more than 26GB....
[06:11] <dholbach> mdz: we're going to pimp the desktopteam wiki about different modules we have, simon agreed on creating queries for people to get easily involved and jono will help us to get it broadcasted
[06:12] <mvo> mdz: good morning. what shall we do about enabling universe/multiverse? shall I try get the misssing bits done for synaptic over the weekend?
[06:12] <dholbach> desrt: that's something that doko will be able to tell you
[06:12] <desrt> doko; ping? :)
[06:12] <mdz> mvo: does the implementation of suggest-packages-for-filetypes require it?
[06:12] <doko> ?
[06:13] <seb128> mdz: good, discussion with useful and we decided on some actions to organize teams, bring new people and what would need work first
[06:13] <mdz> doko: peak disk space used for an oo.o build
[06:13] <mvo> mdz: no, gnome-app-install handles this just fine and ian does not want to install any applications from universe by default anyway for security reasons 
[06:13] <mdz> mvo: ok, let's defer it then
[06:13] <mvo> mdz: ok, thanks (and sorry for the mis-communication about it)
[06:13] <mdz> mvo: np, the ball was not in your court
[06:14] <dholbach> desrt: util: No such file or directory -- weird. is that a typo somewhere? a wrongly substituted variable? a missing build-depends?
[06:14] <desrt> dholbach; i've made no changes to the package.  this is the one that's currently in edgy :)
[06:14] <dholbach> desrt: HUM
[06:14] <desrt> dholbach; basically, oo.o currently has a bug where it always crashes when you try to save
[06:15] <desrt> https://launchpad.net/bugs/58492
[06:15] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58492 in openoffice.org-amd64 "Openoffice.org crashes on "Save"" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[06:15] <_ion> Btw, in the initramfs, scripts/init-top/usplash prereqs "framebuffer", and _both_ mknod /dev/tty{0..8} . That causes error messages.
[06:15] <desrt> from my understanding of the problem it can be fixed by a rebuild
[06:15] <seb128> mdz: BTW the xchat-gnome clipboard handling should be fixed, please let me know if you still have issues with 1:0.13-0ubuntu3
[06:15] <desrt> but i want to test that theory before i go ahead and request a real build
[06:15] <doko> desrt: I remember about 10GB, but I'm just running a du now 
[06:16] <doko> ohh, just 8, must be 10 oon powerpc
[06:16] <mdz> seb128: oh good, thanks
[06:16] <seb128> np
[06:16] <desrt> so definitely not 26
[06:16] <desrt> doko; got any insight into that error that i pastebinned?
[06:17] <desrt> doko; alternatively, could you please just kick off a build of openoffice?  i'm reasonably convinced that i'm right....
[06:17] <desrt> and if i'm not then it's no worse off except for a lot of downloading :p
[06:17] <doko> desrt: no, my build yesterday did succeed
[06:17] <doko> desrt: see 
[06:18] <doko> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu/ edgy/$(ARCH)/
[06:18] <doko> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu/ edgy/all/
[06:18] <desrt> doko; i mean an official edgy build to fix bug 
[06:18] <desrt> bug 58492
[06:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58492 in openoffice.org-amd64 "Openoffice.org crashes on "Save"" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58492
[06:18] <desrt> it's probably something mental like building in en_CA.UTF-8
[06:23] <desrt> doko; ya.  your build is linked against the proper dbus
[06:23] <desrt> doko; please fire off a rebuild of openoffice.org on edgy, all arches...
[06:24] <doko> desrt: no, it's not yet ready
[06:24] <desrt> doko; it can be the exact same one that it already on the mirrors :p
[06:24] <doko> desrt: it doesn't build with the current b-d's.
[06:25] <desrt> that would explain why it broke for me :)
[06:25] <desrt> in any case it's no big rush, i think, since the bug has a workaround for now
[06:27] <Kamion> Keybuk: hi
[06:27] <Keybuk> Kamion: are you doing archive day today?  if not, I missed mine on Tuesday so am happy to do it
[06:28] <bddebian> Bums. ;-P
[06:28] <Kamion> Keybuk: oh, er, I appear to have forgotten
[06:28] <Keybuk> Kamion: :D
[06:28] <Kamion> Keybuk: I'll do a sync pass now, and you can do the rest?
[06:28] <Keybuk> Kamion: ok, deal
[06:28] <Keybuk> you do syncs, I'll do queue
[06:28] <bddebian> *cough*debian multimedia*cough*
[06:28] <elmo> Kamion: unimportant ping about old-releases
[06:29] <Kamion> bddebian: *cough*scared*cough*
[06:29] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: you asked people to report broken usplashes, right?
[06:29] <sladen> dholbach: it was distributed in bluez for hotplug for ages in Debian main.  
[06:29] <bddebian> Kamion: :)
[06:30] <sladen> dholbach: I built that when we switched to udev;  but that must have been getting on for a year ago
[06:30] <Kamion> plus it's not configured in sync-source right now
[06:30] <mjg59> HiddenWolf: Yes
[06:30] <dholbach> sladen: ok, I'll archive it
[06:30] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: I don't see usplash since my upgrade an hour ago.
[06:30] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: dapper-edgy
[06:31] <HiddenWolf> one min
[06:34] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: back, still no usplash
[06:34] <mjg59> HiddenWolf: What hardware, and what version of usplash?
[06:35] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: nforce4 mobo, nvidia 6600gt, amd64 proc, running i386 ubuntu, usplash 0.4-20
[06:36] <mjg59> i386 Ubuntu?
[06:36] <mjg59> Ok, interesting
[06:37] <mjg59> I'll see if I can reproduce
[06:37] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: I did get a working usplash on today's daily-live, so it might be something relating to my upgrade
[06:39] <Seveas> mvo, ping
[06:40] <mvo> hello Seveas
[06:41] <Seveas> mvo, hi. How smart is apt when it has to install lots of packages from several cd's at the same time? Does it ensure people don't need to juggle their disks around a lot?
[06:42] <Treenaks> Seveas: try installing Debian and see :P
[06:43] <Seveas> Treenaks, I'd rather find out without jumping through hoops and mvo knows apt rather well so asking him is the easy way ;)
[06:43] <Treenaks> Seveas: lazy! :P
[06:44] <Seveas> (btw: it could simply be the iso creation tool that does the effort to minimize disk juggling, so installing debian wouldn't give a definite answer)
[06:45] <mvo> Seveas: yes, it should order the install so that it requires a minimum amount
[06:45] <mvo> Seveas: multiple CDs are pretty common for debian
[06:45] <Seveas> mvo, great! That just saves me a lot of work
[06:45] <mvo> Seveas: there might be bugs though :) but in general it should work well
[06:46] <gnomefreak> Seveas: stick with ubuntu only 1 disk to juggle :)
[06:46] <Seveas> gnomefreak, I'm actually working on something to create .iso images
[06:46] <gnomefreak> ah
[06:46] <Seveas> and apt being smart is nice, then I don't have to be
[06:46] <gnomefreak> lol
[06:48] <gnomefreak> how hard would it be to take installed packages and create a iso so i can install it as it
[06:50] <Seveas> gnomefreak, dpkg --get-selections | grep -v deinstall | cut -f 1 -d ' ' | xargs apt-get -d install --reinstall && mkisofs /var/cache/apt/archives /tmp/packages.iso 
[06:50] <Seveas> (sort of)
[06:51] <gnomefreak> hmm if that works (will try later) i might play with that make script of it and see thank you
[06:52] <Seveas> gnomefreak, it won't work as is 
[06:52] <_ion> kamion, keybuk, mjg59, seveas: /lastlog -regex _ion.*usplash :-) Any idea why usplash refuses to use the 1024x768 resolution?
[06:53] <Seveas> _ion, -ELASTLOGFAILED
[06:53] <_ion> < _ion> I looked into the "usplash never comes up" problem a bit: e.g. /sbin/usplash -c -x 800 -y 600 shows the splash, but /sbin/usplash -c -x 1024 -y 768 says "screen init failed". /etc/usplash.conf seems to contain "xres=1024", "yres=768".
[06:53] <_ion> < _ion> Btw, in the initramfs, scripts/init-top/usplash prereqs "framebuffer", and _both_ mknod /dev/tty{0..8} . That causes error messages.
[06:54] <Keybuk> _ion: I don't keep lastlog
[06:54] <Keybuk> (and don't know anything about usplash's current resolution code)
[06:54] <sladen> Keybuk: irssi should do by deafult?
[06:55] <Keybuk> sladen: I don't use irssi, and if I did, I would have modified its configuration to not keep lastlog like I do with X-Chat
[06:55] <gnomefreak> lol
[06:55] <_ion> /lastlog greps the scrollback buffer.
[06:55] <Keybuk> if people want to ask me something, they should bloody well e-mail me, not leave it in the middle of a busy IRC channel and "hope I read it"
[06:56] <Keybuk> _ion: yes, I only keep ~10 lines of scrollback
[06:56] <Keybuk> just enough to fill the screen
[06:56] <Seveas> _ion, i386/ppc?
[06:56] <Keybuk> (this is the same reason I /QUIT from IRC, rather than use a proxy or screen)
[06:56] <_ion> seveas: i386.
[06:57] <Seveas> and 'screen init failed' is the only message?
[06:57] <_ion> Yes.
[06:57] <_ion> I'll try to add some debug printfs to the source.
[06:58] <_ion> seveas: It might be worth mentioning, that during shutdown, usplash does become visible (using 640x400 i guess).
[06:58] <Seveas> usplash_svga.c, see which of vga_init/vga_setmode fails
[06:59] <_ion> Thanks, will do.
[06:59] <Seveas> hmm, usplash_down should now use /etc/usplash.conf too
[07:00] <Keybuk> jdub: we killed advogato, we are bad people
[07:08] <desrt> oh score!
[07:08] <desrt> the fix for the openoffice bug is also the fix for the vmware player bug
[07:09] <_ion> seveas: vga_setmode (12) returns -1
[07:09] <Seveas> does your display not support that resolution?
[07:09] <_ion> That's what i'm using in X. :-) It would support higher resolutions as well, but they get a bit too blurry.
[07:11] <Seveas> then I have no clue unfortunately
[07:12] <Seveas> mjg59 has done the difficult things
[07:12] <Seveas> I merely implemented a few bling-bling enhancements
[07:21] <iwj> Keybuk: I take it that you're responsible for the initscripts package being split off from sysvinit ?
[07:21] <iwj> Package: initscripts
[07:21] <iwj> Conflicts: mdutils, sysv-rc (<< 2.86.ds1-1.2), sysvinit (<< 2.86.ds1-12)
[07:21] <iwj> Replaces: mdutils, sysvinit (<< 2.85-12), libc6, libc6.1, libc0.1, libc0.3
[07:21] <iwj> Note carefully the different version numbers in the relationships to sysvinit.
[07:21] <iwj> Is that a mistake ?
[07:30] <Keybuk> iwj: err, initscripts was split off from sysvinit about a decade ago
[07:32] <Keybuk> it may, of course, be a mistake ... in which case, we inherited it from Debian
[07:39] <iwj> Keybuk: Oh.  Hmm.  The package in dapper matches the Conflicts but not the Replaces.
[07:39] <iwj> This is almost certainly some kind of mistake.  I think I'll not fix it by introducing a Breaks in sysvinit on Friday evening though :-).
[07:40] <iwj> I'll investigate some more in the meantime.  Thanks.
[07:42] <bluefoxicy> Can we get --enable-compositor passed to Metacity and have it off by default?
[07:42] <bluefoxicy> err, passed to ./configure for metacity.
[07:42] <Amaranth> bluefoxicy: No, if someone checks that box and can't use it metacity crashes and won't come back until you uncheck it.
[07:42] <bluefoxicy> "Not yet enabled by default, new compositing affects are only available when Metacity is compiled with the special --enable-compositor option."  "Once Metacity is compiled with the correct option, the effects can be turned on and off without a restart or new login, and applications can take advantage of this. For example, the GNOME terminal can now offer real transparency."
[07:43] <Amaranth> Plus from what I've seen on the forums metacity's compositor almost never works and you usually end up with a blue screen
[07:43] <bluefoxicy> Amaranth:  ah, ok, so it's brokenshit instead of sane enough to tell you it won't work
[07:43] <bluefoxicy> "The new compositing features also depend on support for the GLX_texture_from_pixmap extension, which is only available to owners of Intel i830 to i945, and ATI Radeon 7000 to 9250 chips at the present time."
[08:10] <Keybuk> omg, Google are evil
[08:10] <Keybuk> I was just looking at one of those domain pages which just lists search results related to the domain
[08:10] <Keybuk> squatter/parked things
[08:10] <Keybuk> and it turns out that it's Google that are doing that now
[08:10] <Keybuk> http://www.google.com/domainpark/
[08:12] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: yeah, well, they have to show double-digit growth, the pressure is on. :)
[08:13] <Treenaks> Keybuk: Google doesn't filter its own adsense results from normal searches?!
[08:28] <doko> Kamion: the ada changes are just python2.3 / python2.4 stuff.
[08:40] <doko> desrt: ok, I can the build failure now as well. no clue at the moment ...
[08:53] <BenC> yeah, the new login sound is cool
[08:54] <jdong> ooh, "dawn of ubuntu"
[08:54] <zul> not so brown..
[08:55] <jdong> BenC: oh btw, when will lifeless and I get the dm-bbr love?
[08:56] <Seveas> Keybuk, do you have time to do an usplash upload required to get the themes in?
[08:56] <BenC> jdong: it's in the dapper upload that is just about on it's way up
[08:56] <BenC> jdong: and it will be in the next edgy upload too
[08:56] <jdong> BenC: very nice, thanks so much
[08:56] <Keybuk> Seveas: not right now
[08:57] <Seveas> ok, then it'll have to wait and I'll work around it in the themes
[08:57] <jdong> BenC: btw, I noticed that the mc/smt powersavings patch was reverted....
[08:57] <BenC> jdong: no problem
[08:57] <jdong> BenC: curiousity prompts me to ask about it :)
[08:57] <jdong> what is/was it?
[08:57] <BenC> jdong: yeah, it needed a lot more patches with it, was causing compile failures
[08:58] <jdong> oh, I see
[08:58] <BenC> and didn't have time last minute to track it down
[08:58] <BenC> the main thing, the multi-core, is still there
[08:58] <jdong> k, cool
[08:58] <jdong> so you'll probably try again with that in a future kernel update?
[09:04] <Seveas> Treenaks, NudeBuntu
[09:06] <BenC> jdong: I'll check and see what all is needed...it may turn out that it's just too much backporting
[09:06] <jdong> k
[09:12] <jdong> BenC: would you expect Edgy kernels to build/work under Dapper?
[09:12] <BenC> jdong: build: no, work: yes
[09:12] <BenC> the latest edgy kernel should install no problem on dapper
[09:13] <jdong> k, cool
[09:13] <jdong> would you expect that situation to change through edgy's lifespan?
[09:13] <BenC> things like lrm are a different story (because of nvidia and ati userspace stuff)
[09:13] <BenC> jdong: probably not
[09:13] <jdong> I'm trying to figure out what's the best thing to recommend to forum users running Dapper who are looking for newer kernels
[09:14] <jdong> most of the time for hardware support reasons
[09:14] <jdong> I'd rather not send them out to kernel.org compiling their own vanillas...
[09:14] <BenC> jdong: if they aren't using ati/nvidia video, they should be ok to use edgy kernels
[09:14] <BenC> jdong: but preferably, we should backport needed hw support
[09:15] <jdong> that'd be sweet, yes
[09:15] <jdong> but I don't think that'll always be possible
[09:15] <jdong> i.e. what will it take to get the tifm21xx drivers compiling under 2.6.15?
[09:15] <_ion> Btw, sudo settings should default to "Defaults insults". :-)
[09:16] <_ion> I just can't help smiling when, after mistyping the password, sudo says something "rude" instead of a boring standard error. :-)
[09:16] <BenC> jdong: what is that driver for?
[09:16] <jdong> TI 5-in-1 FlashMedia cardreaders, pretty common in newer laptops
[09:17] <BenC> jdong: probably fairly easy
[09:17] <jdong> last time I tried, it complains about not finding some structures in the kernel... going to 2.6.16+ fixed the compile errors :-/
[09:17] <BenC> jdong: it's a lot easier to add a new driver, and update an old one, since it never worked, something is better than nothing
[09:18] <BenC> jdong: probably just some trivial name changes and such
[09:18] <jdong> ah, I see
[09:18] <jdong> then is dapper's kernel open to new features like this?
[09:18] <BenC> yes, because it is LTS, we'll do some easy backports
[09:18] <BenC> pitti: !!
[09:19] <pitti> hi BenC 
[09:19] <BenC> pitti: dapper kernel is being packetized to security.upload.ubuntu.com at this very moment
[09:20] <BenC> pitti: one quirk, the ABI actually needed bumping for i386/amd64, but since it was only one symbol change, and not something that any module used, I forced it not to
[09:21] <jdong> BenC: very cool. As far as tifm21xx, should I open up a launchpad ticket for that, or will you handle it from here? :)
[09:21] <Kamion> doko: ada> ok, but please put that in the bug; I might not be doing the next round of syncs
[09:21] <BenC> jdong: lp, give it a keyword dapper-backport
[09:21] <jdong> BenC: k, will do. thanks for your time
[09:23] <Trae> Keybuk, are you around bud?
[09:23] <pitti> BenC: *phew* :)
[09:24] <Trae> Keybuk, I'm on SLED 10.1  and wanted to know if there was any testing I can do to maybe help out that Ubuntu Power bug.
[09:24] <mvo> mdz: regarding bug #56141, I will make all the linux-headers in the seeds recommends, ok? 
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56141 in ubuntu-meta "Edgy ubuntu-desktop depends on linux-headers-686" [Low,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/56141
[09:24] <Trae> this thing is driving me up the wall and I'm ready to go back to Ubuntu
[09:24] <mvo> BenC: when will linux-headers-i386 become linux-headers-generic?
[09:24] <Trae> it's only been 6hrs so far.
[09:24] <Trae> heh
[09:24] <Trae> but it hasn't powered off on me viewing any video
[09:24] <Trae> :(
[09:24] <mvo> BenC: thanks a lot for the vmware modules merge \o/
[09:25] <mdz> mvo: the ones in server and ship don't need to be changed, only desktop
[09:25] <Trae> https://launchpad.net/bugs/22336
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 22336 in acpi-support "laptop overheats when performing CPU intensive tasks." [High,Confirmed]  
[09:25] <Trae> this is the bug I speak of.
[09:25] <Trae> :D
[09:25] <mvo> mdz: ok, but I will change powerpc, amd64, ia64, sparc and hppa as well, right?
[09:26] <mdz> mvo: yes
[09:26] <Kamion> ah, I know what I can do
[09:27] <Kamion> I can promote console-setup to minimal and then go off for the weekend
[09:27] <Kamion> superb
[09:27] <Trae> I'd love to help out with any test you guys might be able to think of... but if noone has anthing I'm nuking this and going back to Ubuntu
[09:27] <Trae> I'm a fish out of water
[09:27] <Trae> heh
[09:27] <Trae> Been using Ubuntu (and Debian) apt-based systems for TOO long
[09:27] <Keybuk> Trae: tbh, I've no idea from this point ... you really need mjg59
[09:27] <Trae> Keybuk, ahhh :(
[09:27] <Trae> mjg59, you here?
[09:28] <Trae> Keybuk, tx btw for all the help
[09:30] <mdz> GRRR xchat-gnome changes its keyboard shortcuts AGAIN
[09:31] <Seveas> sorry, but lol 
[09:34] <jdong> lol
[09:36] <Trae> hah!
[09:36] <Trae> Keybuk: it just did it on SLED 10.1!!
[09:37] <Trae> Keybuk: as I said, I didn't have any problems compiling Gentoo for like 24hrs almost 
[09:37] <Trae> now THAT is odd
[09:37] <Kamion> mdz: just to check with you: promoting console-setup to minimal involves promoting xkb-data to minimal and thereby x11-common
[09:37] <Kamion> not actually any of X proper, of course, just some of the base scripts
[09:37] <Trae> mjg59: if you see this... my laptop just locked up on SLED 10.1 too
[09:38] <Kamion> mdz: this seems reasonable to me given that we're now generating console keymaps from X keymaps, but I wanted to check before Just Doing It
[09:38] <mdz> Kamion: it's a bit large but as far as I can see it's mostly changelog
[09:38] <mdz> Kamion: isn't xkb-data obsolete?
[09:38] <mdz> it seems to be empty on my system
[09:39] <Kamion> that's a mistake
[09:39] <Kamion> at the moment the actual data is in xkeyboard-config even though that's allegedly transitional
[09:39] <Kamion> there's a bug filed about it
[09:39] <mdz> I see
[09:39] <Kamion> xkb-data is the new name
[09:39] <mdz> @#!$!#@$! xchat
[09:39] <mdz> anyway, the size of x11-common is pretty manageable compared to the xkb data
[09:39] <zul> lol
[09:39] <mjg59> Trae: Ok, thanks
[09:39] <Kamion> perhaps we should take the old Debian changelog out of x11-common
[09:39] <jdong> mdz: what on earth do you keep pressing? :D
[09:40] <mdz> jdong: control+w, of course
[09:40] <Kamion> and for that matter out of all the binary packages by now - it could just stay in the source
[09:40] <jdong> mdz: and what did you expect that shortcut to do?
[09:40] <Kamion> jdong: delete word
[09:40] <mdz> which has been erase-word since the dawn of time
[09:40] <mjg59> Keybuk: Did you add the code that rewrites kopt lines for the UUID transition? If so, does it also munge the kopt_2_6 line that's now in grub? We've had some people who still have legacy names in there
[09:40] <jdong> well, since the dawn of the other redmond-based world, that's been close window :D
[09:40] <zyga> mdz: untill it became close window
[09:41] <mdz> zyga: which is a lot less useful, and clobbers an existing well-established shortcut without providing any replacement
[09:41] <jdong> mjg59: yes, /me had legacy device names with knot2's installer, caused by kopt_2_6
[09:41] <jdong> mdz: ctrl+bksp?
[09:41] <zyga> mdz: hail to the standard of the majority :/
[09:42] <Kamion> mdz: the other possibility is putting console-setup in standard rather than minimal, but I'm less comfortable with that from an installer point of view, so I'll probably just go with what I've got
[09:42] <mdz> jdong: that doesn't work in anything but gtk programs
[09:42] <mdz> Kamion: ok
[09:42] <jdong> picky picky picky :)
[09:42] <Kamion> does meta-backspace work in xchat?
[09:42] <Kamion> hmm, doesn't work in irssi
[09:42] <Kamion> must just be a bash/readline thing
[09:43] <mdz> Kamion: no, it doesn't
[09:43] <zyga> heh
[09:43] <mdz> not even with gtk-theme-name = "Emacs"
[09:43] <zyga> masters of ubuntu arguing over erase-word keybinding :)
[09:44] <jdong> :)
[09:44] <mdz> ah, gtk-can-change-accels to the rescue
[09:44] <Trae> why isn't the ability to select between Emacs and Default gtk-key-teme an option in the keyboard configs?
[09:45] <mdz> I don't mind having to override its shortcuts once, but it should respect  my choice after that
[09:45] <zyga> why should every program behave like emacs?
[09:45] <Trae> uh oh
[09:45] <jdong> ooh, is now a good time to rehash vim-tiny vs vim-full? :D
[09:45] <zyga> bah.. I already feel where this is going
[09:45] <zyga> ignore me
[09:45] <mdz> zyga: they shouldn't, and given that ^W isn't an emacs shortcut, I don't know what you're talking about
[09:45] <Trae> mdz: when was the last time you nuked your xchat2 configs?
[09:46] <mdz> Trae: when I moved from xchat->xchat-gnome
[09:46] <mdz> that is, during dapper
[09:46] <mdz> I don't even know where gtk-can-change-accels stuff is stored, probably buried in gconf somewhere
[09:46] <Trae> mdz: that might be a xchat-gnome build issue, cause it always keeps the Emacs for me if I set it to gtk-key-theme
[09:46] <Trae> mdz: go to occy.net/search
[09:47] <Trae> mdz: search for: Emacs
[09:47] <Kamion> mdz: how does the bit at the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Proposals look to you?
[09:47] <Trae> mdz it'll show you how to change it in gconf-editor
[09:47] <mdz> Trae: I did that about a year ago
[09:47] <Trae> mdz: if you re-install, you lose it :)
[09:47] <Trae> *chuckle*
[09:47] <mdz> it's still set, and still honored by everything but xchat, which overrides it
[09:47] <Trae> sorry, just trying to help
[09:48] <Trae> mdz: I'd beg to differ with you, I have no problems
[09:48] <Trae> mdz: the only difference between you and I?  I don't use xchat-gnome
[09:48] <Trae> at least I don't think I do
[09:48] <Kamion> Burgwork: I put a console-setup item on the UWN proposals page
[09:48] <mdz> Trae: I beg to differ that that's the only difference between us
[09:48] <Trae> mdz: hahaha
[09:48] <mdz> or our systems either
[09:48] <Seveas> mdz, I finished putting together uubuntu and kubuntu usplash themes for the art team, which are due today. However, they need someone to uplad both them and a fixed usplash (there is one new revision in my usplash branch that they need) -- fschoep is not here right now so who should I talk to for that?
[09:48] <Trae> mdz: I am slightly better looking
[09:48] <Trae> *chuckle*
[09:49] <Riddell> Seveas: I can upload
[09:49] <mdz> Seveas: the usplash changes should go through mjg59 if he is around
[09:49] <mdz> Seveas: dholbach generally handles the artwork uploads, though he may have left for the day
[09:49] <mdz> (for ubuntu)
[09:49] <Seveas> mdz, ok, then this is all waiting for mjg59 
[09:49] <mdz> Riddell: if you wouldn't mind uploading the ubuntu themes as well, that'd be appreciated
[09:50] <Trae> mdz: I'd be happy tohelp you debug that once I get my system back and setup
[09:50] <Trae> mdz: debug meaning try things for you, I can't code, but I can try stuff
[09:50] <Seveas> Riddell, actually, the themes can be uploaded -- they build fine, I just made them uninstallable by depending on a newer version than currently in the archive
[09:51] <Trae> I know how horrible it is not having Emacs keybindings
[09:51] <Riddell> Seveas: where can I get them?
[09:51] <Seveas> one sec
[09:52] <Trae> zyga: and bash isn't "emacs"  yet you can still do:  ctrl+u to clear a line,  ctrl+a and ctrl+e etc.. to get to front and back of lines... those are the thins "Emacs" keybindings give you in forms with it set in gtk-key-theme
[09:52] <mdz> Trae: I've fixed my problem already using gtk-can-change-accels and filed a bug about the issue
[09:52] <mdz> (bug 59563)
[09:52] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 59563 in xchat-gnome "Unixish keyboard shortcuts stopped working again" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59563
[09:53] <Trae> mdz: ok... I'm quite certain it's a config issue.... on your part, but I could be 100% wrong
[09:53] <Seveas> Riddell, http://blackbird.kaarsemaker.net/~dennis/usplash/
[09:53] <Kamion> Trae: working configurations shouldn't be broken by upgrades, as a general rule
[09:53] <Keybuk> Seveas: btw, what does that upload change?
[09:53] <mdz> Trae: it isn't.
[09:53] <Keybuk> Seveas: or is it new packages?
[09:54] <Seveas> Keybuk, the ones for riddell are 2 new packages
[09:54] <Keybuk> what's the usplash upload?
[09:54] <Seveas> the usplash fix they need is preventing a segfault if a theme doesn't link in its own font
[09:54] <Seveas> +a small fix in the example theme
[09:54] <Seveas> the diff is very small
[09:55] <Keybuk> heh
[09:55] <Riddell> Seveas: any rationale for having separate packages?
[09:55] <Seveas> Riddell, none other than laziness
[09:55] <Riddell> Seveas: i.e. new packages rather than the ones we were using previously
[09:56] <Seveas> Riddell, they should be merged imho but kwwii and fschoep came to me about an hour ago to create this and this was easiest to do before having to get some sleep
[09:56] <Riddell> Seveas: previously ubuntu usplash was in just "usplash" as far as I know, and kubuntu was in kubuntu-default-settings
[09:57] <Seveas> ah, but art packages are split up all over the place
[09:58] <mdz> Kamion: are we using the 'linux' metapackage in the installer?
[09:59] <Trae> Is there a Project Manager who can help guide those of us without Coding backgrounds into areas that need help?
[09:59] <Trae> I would love to get more involved and help out.
[09:59] <Seveas> mdz, xubuntu and edubuntu still don't have an usplash theme and I haven't really heard anything from them -- can they go in after feature freeze?
[09:59] <Trae> heh
[10:00] <Kamion> mdz: not at present - base-installer knows what kernels are preferred on what CPUs
[10:00] <Kamion> and picks the best one it can
[10:00] <Trae> that and REALLY scary singing
[10:01] <mdz> Kamion: does it know that there is now only one preferred kernel on i386 and amd64?
[10:01] <mdz> I think most of the stuff it installs are now compatibility packages
[10:05] <mxpxpod> desrt: ping?
[10:05] <mjg59> Seveas: Oh?
[10:05] <mjg59> Seveas: What do I need to pull from your branch?
[10:05] <mdz> Keybuk: when I upgraded my desktop to upstart, it became unable to reboot due to having the upstart commands but sysvinit running
[10:05] <Seveas> mjg59, 1 revision (if lp already shows it)
[10:05] <Riddell> Seveas: does the postrm not need to update alternatives?
[10:06] <mjg59> Seveas: Ok
[10:06] <mjg59> Seveas: What does it fix?
[10:06] <Seveas> Riddell, I took the postrm from the old usplash -- I found it odd too
[10:06] <Kamion> mdz: could you please file a bug with the details? I reduced it to -386 and -generic on i386, and just -generic on amd64
 the usplash fix they need is preventing a segfault if a theme doesn't link in its own font
 +a small fix in the example theme
 the diff is very small
[10:06] <Kamion> mdz: oh, no, -generic and -server on amd64, add -server and -server-bigiron on i386
[10:06] <mjg59> Seveas: Ok
[10:07] <AlinuxOS> Hello All, mjg59 have some minutes ?
[10:07] <Kamion> mdz: it will prefer -generic on i386 on anything with a 586 or better
[10:07] <mjg59> Seveas: What's your repository again?
[10:07] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Hi - what's up?
[10:07] <Seveas> bazaar.launchpad.net/~dennis/usplash/theming
[10:07] <AlinuxOS> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts/+bug/55966 here, finally it works...a trick is found.
[10:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55966 in ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts "ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts.conf problem." [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[10:08] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Ok, cool
[10:08] <mdz> Kamion: my understanding was that the only reason to use anything other than -generic was to get the legacy drivers which don't work with SMP
[10:08] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: I'll do something about that
[10:08] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: I'm afraid I can no longe rupload to Debian, though
[10:08] <mdz> where is BenC?
[10:08] <Kamion> well, I'm away for the evening, anyway, so I can't talk about this now ...
[10:08] <Kamion> I'll get back to it on Monday if I don't hear anything in the meantime
[10:09] <Keybuk> mdz: yes, fix is in bzr; will upload once I've finished debugging this other problem
[10:09] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, there is Arne Goetje-s comment + updated control, defoma-hints, postinst and prerm scripts. 
[10:09] <Kamion> mdz: it should be moot though - every system we care about will use -generic
[10:09] <mdz> Keybuk: what's the fix?  sounds tricky
[10:09] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, why not for Debian ? 
[10:09] <mdz> Kamion: enjoy the weekend
[10:09] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: I'm no longer a member of Debian
[10:09] <Keybuk> mdz: giving the upstart shutdown command enough marbles to try sending an old-style initctl message if it gets ECONNREFUSED from upstart
[10:09] <Kamion> ta
[10:10] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, what about Ubuntu ? :)
[10:10] <Kamion> I still think we should figure out how to get upstart to gracefully be re-execed by sysvinit :-)
[10:10] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Can manage that
[10:10] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, I'm sorry for that...
[10:10] <mjg59> Keybuk: Did you see my question about grub and uuid stuff?
[10:10] <mdz> mjg59: current usplash seems to still clobber the console on my T42
[10:10] <mjg59> mdz: I'll look into it
[10:10] <Keybuk> mjg59: no, what is the question?
[10:11] <mdz> mjg59: any info I can provide?
[10:11] <mjg59> Keybuk: kopt in grub gets changed to have UUIDs
[10:11] <Keybuk> Kamion: it's not actually that hard... the problem is that upstart would think all the jobs were stopped
[10:11] <mjg59> Keybuk: kopt_2_6 doesn't seem to
[10:11] <Keybuk> Kamion: and might then start doing odd things, like starting more gettys
[10:11] <Keybuk> mjg59: oh
[10:11] <Kamion> GETTYS FOR EVERYONE
[10:11] <Kamion> anyway, really gone
[10:12] <mjg59> Keybuk: Biting new installs rather than upgrades, but has hit us because some machines went from sda to hda (small kernel screwup)
[10:12] <mjg59> mdz: 1400x1050 system?
[10:12] <Keybuk> mjg59: file a bug, subscribe me, I'll look into it
[10:12] <mjg59> Keybuk: Ok
[10:12] <mdz> mjg59: 1024x768
[10:12] <mdz> I also see some very odd behaviour where the boot process hangs
[10:12] <mdz> but resumes on ctrl+f1
[10:13] <mdz> I'm going to have sshd start earlier and see what's up
[10:13] <mjg59> mdz: Are you sure you're on latest usplash?
[10:13] <mjg59> And latest kernel?
[10:13] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, what a paradox there is 0.3 version of ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts for Debian and 0.2 version(old with no fonts.conf) in Ubuntu (Dapper and Edgy) repository ;)
[10:13] <mdz> mjg59: hmmm
[10:15] <mdz> mjg59: usplash 0.4-20, 2.6.17-7
[10:15] <mdz> I'm regenerating initramfs manually to be extra sure
[10:15] <mjg59> mdz: Ok
[10:16] <Burgwork> Kamion, thanks! I will add it
[10:16] <ogra> why does our initramfs supply a /usr/share/initramfs-tools/conf.d/ dir ?
[10:16] <ogra> apprently its not used 
[10:16] <mdz> ogra: /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs:for i in ${CONFDIR}/conf.d/* /usr/share/initramfs-tools/conf.d/*; do
[10:16] <Riddell> Seveas: I can upload the kubuntu splash as part of kubuntu-default-settings, are you sure we want a new package for the ubuntu splash?
[10:17] <mdz> mjg59: I think it might have become confused due to -386 sorting ahead of -generic
[10:17] <mdz> and regenerated the wrong one
[10:17] <ogra> mdz, well, it doesnt work ...
[10:17] <mdz> mjg59: console seems to be OK
[10:17] <Seveas> Riddell, kubuntu is your call -- do what you see fit. For Ubuntu all pieces of the artwork have been split up so I assume this has to be a separate package as well
[10:17] <mjg59> mdz: Ah, ok
[10:17] <Riddell> Seveas: ok
[10:17] <mjg59> mdz: That would make sense
[10:18] <ogra> i have to put my file into /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/ to make it work
[10:20] <mdz> ogra: given that they're used on exactly the same line, it seems likely that something else is wrong
[10:21] <ogra> weird
[10:21] <mdz> ah, I see
[10:21] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, I think that even if you don't update that package for Debian - it still can be usable for debian. right ?
[10:21] <mjg59> Seveas: Ok, uploading
[10:21] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Yes
[10:21] <mdz> ogra: look at the lines after that in mkinitramfs; it later assumes they're all in $CONFDIR
[10:21] <mdz> apparently no one ever tried to use that feature before
[10:21] <ogra> right :)
[10:21] <mdz> ogra: what are you trying to do?
[10:22] <Seveas> mjg59, \o/
[10:22] <mjg59> Seveas: Feel free to get the themes dealt with
[10:22] <mjg59> Seveas: They probably want an appropriate depends line
[10:22] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, ok so just somone from debian could update it :)
[10:22] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Sure
[10:22] <ogra> mdz, dropping the sed calls to change mkinitramfs.conf from ltsp and put a proper file in to change the options
[10:23] <AlinuxOS> Why no more you ? Some political issue ? 
[10:23] <ogra> mdz, 
[10:23] <mdz> ogra: any reason not to put it in /etc as a conffile so the admin can change it?
[10:23] <ogra> root@edubuntu:/# cat /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/ltsp 
[10:23] <ogra> MODULES="netboot"
[10:23] <ogra> BOOT="nfs"
[10:23] <ogra> thats where i got it now
[10:23] <ogra> i like to avoid conffiles if possible ...
[10:24] <ogra> if you think it makes sense to make it one i'll keep it in etc
[10:24] <ogra> but i think we should ship it in usr and rather make mkinitramfs perfer the files from etc
[10:24] <ogra> so the admin can drop in an ltsp file to override the default
[10:25] <ogra> s/an ltsp file/an ltsp file in the etc dir/
[10:26] <mdz> Keybuk: splash-down seems pretty broken at the moment; is that due to teardown, upstart or both?
[10:27] <mjg59> mdz: The difference in resolution is because usplash doesn't get called with the resolution arguments
[10:27] <mdz> mjg59: argh, false alarm, my console is broken after all
[10:27] <mjg59> I've no idea why only the second phase of it appears
[10:27] <mjg59> mdz: Hm
[10:27] <mdz> with current kernel, usplash and initramfs
[10:28] <mjg59> I'll try testing with Daf's T42 when he gets back, but it's the 1400x1050 model
[10:28] <mdz> it was a recovery mode boot before
[10:28] <mjg59> mdz: If you go to a console and do sudo vbetool vgamode 3 does it get your text back?
[10:28] <Seveas> mjg59, actually I went ahead with the themes prematurely -- the kubuntu one is upladed as part of kubuntu-default-settings, the ubuntu one is in a new package, so needs some NEW massaging
[10:29] <mjg59> Seveas: Ok
[10:29] <mdz> mjg59: yes, it does
[10:29] <mjg59> mdz: Hmph. Right.
[10:29] <mjg59> mdz: In that case, in theory usplash is doing precisely that
[10:29] <mdz> mjg59: but then switching to X and back breaks it again
[10:29] <mdz> so perhaps it's X and not usplash at all
[10:29] <mjg59> mdz: Haha.
[10:29] <mjg59> It is possible that it's X
[10:29] <ogra> mjg59, hey, that helps here too ... no stripes anymore
[10:29] <mjg59> ogra: ?
[10:30] <mjg59> ogra: Using which version of usplash?
[10:30] <ogra> mjg59, i told you i have stripes and no chars on the console 
[10:30] <ogra> not the most recent one 
[10:30] <mjg59> ogra: Yes, and I fixed that on the similar hardware I have here
[10:30] <mjg59> Right
[10:30] <ogra> i upgraded, but didnt reboot yet
[10:31] <mdz> ogra: does switching to X break it again?
[10:31] <ogra> yes
[10:31] <mjg59> Gah. I wonder if X is doing something mad like saving register settings at startup and not afterwards.
[10:31] <mjg59> That sounds implausible, though.
[10:31] <mdz> ogra: which X driver?
[10:31] <mdz> I'm using ati
[10:31] <ogra> me too
[10:31] <ogra> oh, no, wait
[10:32] <mjg59> It's fine on the only ati hardware I have
[10:32] <ogra> i lied
[10:32] <ogra> i use fglrx atm
[10:32] <mjg59> Oh, in that case it's almost certainly X
[10:33] <mjg59> Graphics bugs which involve the use of binary-only drivers are likely to get ignored, I'm afraid
[10:33] <ogra> the stripes look the same with ati though ... thats why i tried to switch
[10:33] <Seveas> it breaks here on dapper/fglrx from ati.com too
[10:33] <mjg59> It's fixed in -18
[10:34] <ogra> (my card has no 3d support in fglrx so i wouldnt use it normally)
[10:36] <jdong> hmm usplash behaves ok with my fglrx/edgy and dapper's usplash worked fine with fglrx, too...
[10:36] <jdong> since -18
[10:36] <jdong> except for the 16-color ordeal
[10:41] <mdz> ogra: do you know why gnome-screensaver only recommends the screen hacks, instead of depending on at least one
[10:41] <mdz> ?
[10:42] <mdz> oh, I suppose blanking is built-in
[10:42] <ogra> yep
[10:42] <ogra> i dont have any hacks installed in edubuntu
[10:43] <ogra> a hard dep would make that impossible ...
[10:43] <ogra> g-ss also supplies two or three own savers
[10:43] <ogra> (the flying gnome feet for example)
[10:44] <Riddell> xubuntu usplash uploaded, someone else will need to do the artwork though
[10:44] <Riddell> ogra: want me to do edubuntu?
[10:44] <ogra> Riddell, whats the change ? 
[10:44] <Riddell> ogra: there's a new usplash
[10:44] <ogra> *missed
[10:44] <ogra> yes
[10:44] <Riddell> with new usplash plugins needed
[10:44] <ogra> aha
[10:45] <ogra> where and when was that announced ?
[10:45] <ogra> did i miss a mail ?
[10:46] <ogra> Riddell, anyway, if you got something ready, go ahead 
[10:46] <Riddell> it's not been announced by e-mail, it's what we've been discussing on this channel for the last our
[10:46] <ogra> ah, i juat came back 
[10:46] <ogra> *just
[10:46] <ogra> and am busy fixing the last small ltsp breakages
[10:48] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Ok, there's an issue here
[10:49] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, only in your case ? Or it's a general problem ?
[10:49] <mjg59> Installing that package has changed my default GTK fonts even without me having a Georgian locale
[10:49] <mjg59> Which isn't really acceptable
[10:49] <mjg59> Let me see if I can figure this out
[10:50] <mjg59> Yeah, it's giving me BPG fonts
[10:51] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hm...
[10:51] <AlinuxOS> for me everything is ok here.
[10:51] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: But you're expecting the BPG fonts, right? :)
[10:51] <mjg59> The latin characters in them are less well formed than the default font we use
[10:52] <mjg59> So it can't override those
[10:53] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, normally BPG don't changes latin charachters...there is georgian unicode range, so only georgian unicode range is changed.
[10:53] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Rioni very definitely contains latin characters
[10:54] <ogra> mjg59, any opinion on bug 29527 ?
[10:54] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 29527 in gnome-power-manager "brightness is not associated with any graphical indicator (such as volume one)" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/29527
[10:55] <mjg59> ogra: It probably needs my patch removing
[10:55] <ogra> do you think i should disable the patch for a test ? 
[10:55] <ogra> ok
[10:55] <ogra> thats what i thought ...
[11:00] <mdz> mjg59: I'm definitely using ati and not fglrx
[11:00] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, http://alinuxos.no-ip.org/geo.png - Here is ok. Maybe it changes it but in Georgian contecst, it loooks great. There was no laments about this issue.
[11:00] <mdz> ogra: can you try with ati?
[11:01] <ogra> mdz, if the g-p-m build finished ...
[11:01] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: But it *breaks* non-Georgian contexts
[11:01] <mjg59> And so I can't upload it
[11:01] <mjg59> I'm looking into this now
[11:02] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, thank you.
[11:02] <mdz> mjg59: your theory about X saving the regs at startup it looking pretty plausible
[11:03] <mdz> booting without usplash, it switches fine
[11:03] <mdz> booting with usplash, it's destroyed
[11:03] <mjg59> mdz: But usplash is setting it to text mode before X starts. Hmm.
[11:03] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: So, before:
[11:03] <mjg59> tyrosine% fc-match
[11:03] <mjg59> DejaVu-Sans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"
[11:03] <mjg59> And after:
[11:03] <mjg59> tyrosine% fc-match 
[11:03] <mjg59> BPGRioni-Regular.ttf: "BPG Rioni" "Regular"
[11:03] <mjg59> That is, it's changed my default font
[11:04] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hm...is it font problem ?
[11:04] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: No, fontconfig
[11:04] <mjg59> I assume
[11:04] <mdz> mjg59: is it?  when X starts, usplash is still up and goes all funny
[11:04] <mjg59> mdz: Erm.
[11:04] <mjg59> mdz: That's really not meant to happen.
[11:05] <mdz> mjg59: what's meant to stop it?
[11:05] <mdz> as far as I know it's always been that way
[11:06] <mjg59> svgalib/src/vga.c, __svgalib_releasevt_signal
[11:06] <mdz> except for the going all funny, which I assumed was related to vesa
[11:06] <mdz> mjg59: isn't that triggered by X starting, i.e. it's already too late?
[11:06] <ogra> gdm usually stops it
[11:06] <mjg59> mdz: Yes, but X isn't supposed to be fucking with the VTs until after that
[11:06] <mdz> ogra: I don't think gdm even knows usplash exists
[11:06] <ogra> see the gdm initscript
[11:06] <mjg59> Also, what ogra said
[11:06] <mdz> oh, so it does
[11:06] <ogra> in a horrible way by calling start :(
[11:06] <mdz> it used to know about usplash_down but seems broken
[11:08] <mjg59> mdz: Ok. If you go to the console (while it's broken), then run usplash and then switch away, does it work?
[11:08] <mdz> mjg59: usplash_quit() in init.d/usplash doesn't
[11:08] <mjg59> As in, does usplash exit and text mode get restored?
[11:09] <mdz> oh, I booted without splash
[11:09] <mdz> mjg59: yes, switching away from usplash dtrt
[11:09] <mjg59> Ok
[11:09] <jdong> GRR... for the 28th time this hour, xchat and gaim did NOT crash @$@!$@!$!
[11:09] <mjg59> So it sounds like there's an issue with the gdm and usplash interaction here
[11:09] <jdong> what source package do I file the crash notification applet under?
[11:09] <tseng> jdong: the crash applet itself?
[11:10] <tseng> jdong: apport
[11:10] <jdong> tseng: thanks
[11:10] <mdz> mjg59: ok, I've reproduced it
[11:10] <jdong> god this is the most annoying thing since WGA....
[11:10] <mdz> mjg59: after disabling the /proc/cmdline check in usplash_quit (I'm not sure why it's needed anyway), it fails to kill usplash with TERM and ends up KILLing it
[11:10] <mdz> which produces the garbled screen
[11:11] <mdz> er
[11:11] <mdz> fails to kill usplash with usplash_write QUIT that is
[11:12] <mdz> this is completely a local problem
[11:12] <mdz> ignore me
[11:12] <mjg59> Mm?
[11:12] <mjg59> What was up?
[11:13] <mdz> mjg59: /usr/local/sbin/usplash_write.  I assume the fifo location changed or something
[11:13] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, in case if there is some problems to find an optimal solution... https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts/+bug/55966 you can ask to Arne Goetje. He helped me a lot to figure out howto to manage general georgian fontconfig.
[11:13] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55966 in ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts "ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts.conf problem." [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[11:13] <mdz> that's what that weird hang was; it was init.d/usplash watiing before killing usplash
[11:14] <mdz> consoles and usplash are both OK now
[11:14] <mdz> so I wonder what ogra's problem was
[11:14] <mdz> maybe he, like me, 'make install'ed usplash a year or so ago and forgot about it
[11:15] <mdz> actually I don't know how I ended up with that, probably debugging
[11:15] <mdz> ogra: my problem turned out to be a stray /usr/local/sbin/usplash_write
[11:15] <ogra> oh
[11:16] <mdz> usplash wasn't getting shut down properly
[11:16] <ogra> well, its the same behavior with the ati drive fwiw
[11:16] <ogra> *driver
[11:16] <mdz> ogra: check that usplash is getting shut down before X starts
[11:17] <ogra> well, gdm should do that no ?
[11:17] <mdz> ogra: check
[11:17] <ogra> its not running
[11:17] <ogra> but i need to update and reboot anyway, as i said when we began ...
[11:17] <Seveas> Riddell, did you use ubuntu or kubuntu for xubuntu? 
[11:17] <Riddell> ogra: the edubuntu-artwork buildsystem is too complex for me, you'll need to do it yourself I'm afraid, copying the files out of kubuntu-default-settings
[11:18] <Riddell> Seveas: kubuntu
[11:18] <ogra> Riddell, i'll look after i got ltsp done
[11:18] <mjg59> mdz: ogra hasn't rebooted with a new usplash
[11:18] <Seveas> Riddell, someone was working on a proper edubuntu theme iirc
[11:18] <Bluhd> I've got a problem with acloca
[11:18] <Bluhd> *aclocal
[11:18] <ogra> Seveas, yes, cbx33 
[11:18] <Bluhd> whenever I run it, I get this:
[11:18] <Bluhd> macro `AM_PROG_LIBTOOL' not found in library
[11:18] <Bluhd> libtool is in fact installed
[11:19] <Seveas> cbx33, ping
[11:19] <mdz> mjg59: gdm used to run /sbin/usplash_down to dtrt during shutdown, but that doesn't exist anymore
[11:19] <mjg59> Oh, that's interesting
[11:20] <mdz> mjg59: the makefile doesn't install it
[11:20] <ogra> i think it changed in dapper already
[11:20] <ogra> i had a prob with ldm back then and i think it was seb who told me to stop it via the initscript in ldm's
[11:21] <mdz> after copying it into place, splash-down seems to work nicely again
[11:21] <mdz> well, the first stage
[11:21] <ogra> (which brought me an ugly bug i have now in dapper ltsp)
[11:21] <mdz> then it reverts to low res mode
[11:21] <mdz> I can fix that though
[11:22] <Bluhd> Hello?
[11:23] <mdz> Bluhd: this channel is for development of the distribution itself, not for help with doing development on ubuntu
[11:23] <Bluhd> oh
[11:23] <Bluhd> ok
[11:44] <Kamion> usplash-theme-ubuntu> I'm going to need to adjust the preseed file on our CDs to install that
[11:45] <Kamion> but it can wait until tomorrow
[11:51] <bluefoxicy> heh I've crashed firefox 50 times in the past half hour.
[11:51] <cbx33> pong Seveas 
[11:51] <cbx33> pong ogra 
[11:51] <Seveas> cbx33, how's the edubuntu usplash theme going?
[11:51] <bluefoxicy> stupid gecko goes nuts with a lot of dhtml re content management system administration.
[11:52] <cbx33> just getting the ideas together havn't start putting it down on paper yet
[11:52] <cbx33> ogra, did you get anywhere with SCP?
[11:52] <bluefoxicy> probably just race conditions everywhere, and those 611 "defects" and 74 "security holes" or whatnot.
[11:52] <cbx33> Seveas, hopefully going to do that tomotrrow
[11:52] <ogra> ?
[11:52] <ogra> nope
[11:52] <ogra> pitti apparently didnt review the MIR
[11:53] <cbx33> ahh....ok
[11:53] <Seveas> cbx33, I though deadline was today?
[11:53] <cbx33> does this mean we're confined to Universe?
[11:53] <bluefoxicy> (anything where i can load the application too much and make it crash I immediately assume is probably a race)
[11:53] <cbx33> Seveas, we had a setback in the artwork for edubuntu
[11:53] <cbx33> not all the people working on it, turned in work....as a result we're playing catchup
[11:54] <cbx33> 've jumped in to helpout, even though my artwork skills are limited
[11:54] <cbx33> ogra, are you happy with the higher Ed wallpaper?
[11:54] <Seveas> cbx33, ok -- here's a deal: provide me a 600x800, 1024x768 and 1365x768 version of the same background png and I'll put the theme together. Make sure a brown progress bar fits with the theme for now
[11:55] <cbx33> Seveas, you are a star !
[11:55] <ogra> is there a new one or are you referring to the one you showed me ? 
[11:55] <cbx33> ogra, yes
[11:55] <cbx33> the one I showed you?
[11:55] <ogra> Seveas, brown ??
[11:55] <cbx33> comments suggestions
[11:55] <ogra> Seveas, is that necessary ` 
[11:55] <ogra> ?
[11:55] <Seveas> ogra, I already have a brown progress bar in png so that's easiest
[11:55] <cbx33> Seveas, can I alter the images in your pacage to provide a diff colour
[11:55] <Seveas> kubuntu-blue is also possible
[11:55] <cbx33> I'll mod the pngs if that's ok?
[11:55] <Seveas> sure!
[11:55] <ogra> Seveas, the current one i see in edubuntu is the edubuntu red one
[11:55] <cbx33> just hue them up to our scheme
[11:55] <Seveas> provide me another progrss bar and I'll use it
[11:56] <cbx33> thanks Seveas you really rock !
[11:56] <Seveas> I'm just that bad with graphics that there is no way I can create one myself
[11:56] <cbx33> Seveas, heheh
[11:56] <cbx33> I'm not that great myself
[11:56] <cbx33> photography is my art outlet....
[11:56] <cbx33> and the ubuntu sounds of course ;P
[11:57] <cbx33> ogra, I don;t wanna lumber it on you
[11:57] <Seveas> ogra, I can put it together in minutes
[11:57] <cbx33> you've done enough
[11:57] <Seveas> Have done it three times now ;)
[11:57] <cbx33> I'll get it sorted
[11:57] <cbx33> Seveas, I'll sort that out for you
[11:57] <ogra> cbx33, its fine for now (the wallpaper), but i guess we'll need sabdfl approval since our artteam hasnt really shown much before the freeze
[11:57] <Seveas> cbx33, mail images to dennis@ubuntu.com -- I'll be offline for a large portion of the day tomorrow
[11:58] <cbx33> ogra, i apologise :(
[11:58] <ogra> cbx33, not your fault ...
[11:58] <cbx33> I tried to stir interest...contacted some people who sasid they were interested...but got very little back
[11:58] <cbx33> :'(
[11:59] <ogra> stop apologizing for everything :) you did awesome work with SCP, the sounds gisomount etc ...
[11:59] <cbx33> not but I do feel I've let you guys down
[11:59] <cbx33> heh
[11:59] <ogra> you didnt 
[11:59] <cbx33> I'm an apologetic guy ;)
[11:59] <cbx33> I'll try to work a lot tomorrow on them
[11:59] <cbx33> lisa will be working on them too
[12:00] <cbx33> we should have a lot more to show for it....it's been crazy here...my brother i law has moved in today for 2 weeks while his parents are on holiday
[12:00] <cbx33> ogra, how do you want to work usplash....
[12:01] <cbx33> if we get images...want to approve before they goto Seveas ?
[12:01] <ogra> its not your fault that the artteam we once had got silent ...
[12:01] <ogra> yes you are
[12:01] <ogra> without any reason for that :)(
[12:01] <ogra> :)
[12:01] <coyctecm> i need help, where metacity checks the timeout(or something) where it looks is window responding or not
[12:01] <ogra> i'd like to see them, yes, but approval lies in either sabdfls or the artleaders hands
[12:01] <cbx33> ok
[12:01] <cbx33> art leader being Lisa or Frank?
[12:02] <cbx33> oh and ..... just for my own piece of mind....do you thin kSCP will be universe this release now?
[12:02] <ogra> frank ... but i guess he'll refer us to sabdfl
[12:02] <ogra> cbx33, no idea, it completely depends on pitti 
[12:02] <ogra> he knows that i'd like it on the CD
[12:03] <ogra> and he knows it was submitted as MIR eary enough ...
[12:03] <cbx33> ok cool
[12:03] <cbx33> hehe funny the sounds sabdfl kinda just commented and let me and Frank choose
[12:03] <ogra> thats fine 
[12:03] <cbx33> but I'm quite close with Frank so I'll get him to check them over
[12:04] <ogra> i think lisa can decide herself since she's artteam lead, but the final call will be sabdfls anyway
[12:04] <cbx33> ok
[12:04] <cbx33> we knew that....the sabdfl thing
[12:06] <cbx33> ogra, just so as ...well.....do you have anything you'd like us to try for the artwork
[12:06] <mdz> mjg59: do you have access to any machines where ondemand doesn't work, so we can develop a test for that?
[12:07] <cbx33> and you mentioned about the manga one and religion.....is there something we can do to modify it more to your liking...?
[12:07] <mjg59> mdz: Having checked the code, I believe that The Right Thing will already happen