[12:11] <Hawkwind> If the user doesn't have the Gnome stuff installed, he gets frustrated because the wiki is giving false info
[12:11] <Fujitsu> OK, /me shuts up.
[12:11] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: effectively, and that the people in #kubuntu-devel only tend to do kde based packages, instead of any and all
[12:11] <Hobbsee> sorry, still waking up here
[12:12] <nixternal> hehe
[12:12] <gnomefreak> Hawkwind: ive been seeing alot of wikis saying open your fav. text editor (i dont like it but thats what people have been doing)
[12:12] <Hawkwind> gnomefreak: Even that we need to change IMO
[12:12] <nixternal> gnomefreak: you have to look over the Doc style guide as well, since that is what they really wanted to style the wiki after as well
[12:12] <Hawkwind> A lot of users have no idea what editor exists in Linux
[12:12] <imbrandon> Hawkwind, ok i still dont see this as a problem as you come accross them fixem ? 
[12:12] <nixternal> but i agree with you, the "favorite text editor" is annoying
[12:12] <gnomefreak> agreed it would be nice for them to have the pastable command
[12:13] <nixternal> because someone might not know about kate or kwrite, let alone nano, vi, vim and so forth
[12:13] <Hawkwind> imbrandon: Yes.  abattoir had a lot more specific stuff to say...I wasn't really prepared to speak on this subject :)
[12:13] <nixternal> ok...i think this has been beaten enough ;)
[12:13] <toma> Hawkwind: a general replace gksu/kdesu does not seem very difficult for me as a bystander
[12:13] <Riddell> KST dudes: is there anything you need from us?
[12:13] <Jucato> imbrandon: fixing the docs/wikis is just one of the things we'd like to do. another is to coordinate this little bits and pieces of information and make sure that they blend together as a whole
[12:13] <gnomefreak> toma: its not
[12:13] <Hawkwind> Riddell: At the moment I can't think of anything.  I'll let abattoir speak to you or others about that when he's here next
[12:14] <imbrandon> Jucato, sure and i said i 100% agree, go for it, i just urged you do it within the teams already established
[12:14] <Tonio_> Jucato: that requires defining the bases of a support branch in the wiki, since it went to all directions till now
[12:14] <nixternal> Hawkwind, Jucato, and abattoir, i would also recommend you talk to Burgwork / Burgundavia, or mdke when you get a chance as well concerning the wiki and documentation... #ubuntu-doc is their hangout
[12:15] <Hawkwind> nixternal: Noted
[12:15] <Jucato> added to auto-join :)
[12:15] <allee> One wish: if browser-identification is 'konqueor'  css color should be blue! 
[12:15] <nixternal> believe me when i say, you open up the can or worms on the wiki though in the channel, prepare to work for 11 days straight ;)
[12:15] <Riddell> I'm very happy to see an inititive to ensure community support is as good for kubuntu as it is for ubuntu
[12:15] <Tonio_> allee: hehe ;)
[12:15] <nixternal> or even 40 days and 40 nights ;)
[12:15] <Riddell> make sure you work with or within the existing teams and everyone will be happy
[12:16] <nixternal> Riddell: +1
[12:16] <Hobbsee> +1 Riddell 
[12:16] <Tonio_> yes, I agree
[12:16] <allee> +1 Riddell
[12:16] <Riddell> and a paragraph for UWN would be cool too
[12:16] <nixternal> Riddell: i lost that, my fault there ;(
[12:16] <claydoh> +1 nixternal 
[12:16] <toma> Hawkwind: going for ops?
[12:17] <Hawkwind> toma: That is correct
[12:17] <Jucato> :)
[12:17] <Riddell> that's the next item
[12:17] <Riddell> we don't really have a formal procedure for #kubuntu ops, I just do it if it seems sensible
[12:17] <Riddell> Hawkwind: any reason you'd like to be an op?
[12:17] <Riddell> and anyone have any objections?
[12:17] <allee> Hawkwind, Jucato have fun, I really apprecaite any work in this direction!!
[12:17] <Hawkwind> Riddell: Let me paste something I have pre-typed
[12:17] <Hawkwind> I am here today for a couple of reasons.  One being the Kubuntu Support Team and the other is applying for the Kubuntu op team.  Why an op you ask ?  I feel I have many things I can bring to the channel and the community.  I have listed a few of those things on my wiki page.  The main reason I'm applying is because I am active on the channel 10+ hours a day, am very knowledgeable in both Linux and Kubuntu. I get along v
[12:17] <Hawkwind> ery well with all users of the channel, including several of the other ops.  My op background consists of being an op for the #Mandrake/#Mandriva channel for 3 years, and the last 1 1/2 years of that was spent being the channels alternate contact.
[12:18] <Hawkwind> allee: Thank you :)
[12:18] <imbrandon> Riddell, Hawkwind, is arround alot and seems to have a level head in #kubuntu
[12:18] <Hawkwind> BTW, here is my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hawkwind  and LP page: https://launchpad.net/people/hawkwind
[12:18] <gnomefreak> i like Hawkwind as an op as imbrandon points out he is around alot
[12:18] <Riddell> I'm satisfied, I'll do that after the meeting
[12:18] <Hobbsee> Riddell: I object!   :P  No, i think Hawkwind would make a good op.  we really dont have terribly many ops in #kubuntu and most that we do have arent watching anyway, only responding if !ops is called - i know that's all i tend to do, at least
[12:19] <toma> 10h+ ?
[12:19] <nixternal> WHAT!  a penguins head wearing a MICROSOFT colored bow tie =/
[12:19] <Jucato> lol
[12:19] <toma> amazing
[12:19] <imbrandon> s/gnomefreak/kdefreak/g  THERE the first fix to the doc's
[12:19] <claydoh> I vote for Hawkwind 
[12:19] <toma> +1
[12:19] <gnomefreak> lol
[12:19] <Riddell> Tonio_: your item
[12:19] <Tonio_> yes
[12:19] <gnomefreak> i cant someone took it
[12:19] <Hawkwind> Thank you to everyone for the kind words :)
[12:19] <claydoh> #kubuntu would be easy compared to #mandriva
[12:19] <Hobbsee> =1, as i cant find the plus button
[12:19] <nixternal> haha
[12:19] <Hobbsee> +ooh, there we go
[12:19] <gnomefreak> +1
[12:19] <Jucato> lol
[12:19] <Tonio_> we have a few critical bugs that we need to focus on before release
[12:19] <Hawkwind> claydoh: Hah, agreed
[12:20] <Hobbsee> it's still dark in here, i cant see the keyboard!
[12:20] <Tonio_> I think it would be nice to dedicate a wikipage to them
[12:20] <imbrandon> Tonio_, agreed
[12:20] <Riddell> bouncing k icon at startup
[12:20] <Tonio_> here is an example of what I call critical : https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bug/56377
[12:20] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56377 in kdebase "klipper crashes on login " [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  
[12:20] <Riddell> yes, I do miss klipper
[12:20] <toma> Tonio_: yes, i said it before, i love lists which i could do when i'm bored.
[12:20] <Tonio_> that will touch any new profile and any new installation when edgy is out....
[12:21] <Riddell> Tonio_: in theory we should be able to use launchpad to sort important bugs, but I agree a wiki page is probably easier
[12:21] <Tonio_> and I'm pretty sure we can find a very consistent list of things like this one
[12:21] <gnomefreak> i thought that was fixed removing ~/.klipperrc if it was changed from default as a workaround
[12:21] <toma> (copy & paste does not work, with or without klipper)
[12:21] <imbrandon> Tonio_ / Riddell and would give us a place to colab on pre-release/must fix bugs over the next weeks as we are a sparse team all in diffrent timezones ;)
[12:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes launchpad is pretty nice during the dev cycle, but not very convenient to focus on the essential stuff just before the release
[12:22] <toma> Tonio_: isn't there a priority field?
[12:22] <Tonio_> the wikipage should link and invite to use launchpad, it should just be there to help defining the priorities
[12:22] <Riddell> Tonio_: so please set up KubuntuEdgyCriticalBugs and we'll get cracking on them
[12:22] <Tonio_> toma: yes there is, but what is important is not always critical
[12:22] <toma> Tonio_: would be best to let launchpad generate the list
[12:22] <Tonio_> that klipper issue is the perfect example
[12:22] <Tonio_> it is not critical, since it doesn't break kubuntu, but we cannot think of releasing with this bug
[12:23] <Tonio_> Riddell: will do with the help of Hobbsee, for her ug status knowledge :)
[12:23] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: can I onsider your help to do that page tomorrow ?
[12:23] <Riddell> ug status?
[12:23] <imbrandon> heh
[12:23] <Hobbsee> say what?  :P
[12:23] <Tonio_> Riddell: bug status
[12:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yes, i have a very high ug status :P
[12:24] <imbrandon> ;)
[12:24] <Riddell> :)
[12:24] <Riddell> right, universe freeze
[12:24] <Tonio_> rah !! Hobbsee, I'm sure you understood, so that's fine to me :)
[12:24] <imbrandon> 28th ?
[12:24] <Riddell> only 2.5 weeks to go
[12:25] <toma> hmm, anyone wants to do a second try at getting digikam(.*)-docs in?
[12:25] <Riddell> I can't think of any important packages that need to be got in, but a revu triage would be nice
[12:25] <Riddell> toma: what happened with it?
[12:25] <Hobbsee> toma: if the licence stuff is still wrong, you wont...
[12:25] <imbrandon> we need to have some of use k guys ( and gals ) go though revu on revu day
[12:25] <Riddell> oh, no FDL text
[12:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: that's what they plan to do today.  or this day a month ago, take your pick.  :P
[12:26] <toma> allee: you released a new version, right?
[12:26] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: revu day today, check MOTU mailing list
[12:26] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, its still the 7th for me ;)
[12:26] <toma> afaik a sync with debian should solve it
[12:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: add the wiki link to the topic too
[12:26] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes, sure
[12:26] <Riddell> toma: great, that sounds easy then
[12:26] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: catch up with the times.
[12:27] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, -motu topic says the 8th
[12:27] <imbrandon> so i guess we get 2 revu days
[12:27] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: indeed.  in my timezone, it is the 8th
[12:27] <Riddell> Hobbsee: your agenda item
[12:27] <imbrandon> ahh
[12:27] <Hobbsee> wha?
[12:27] <Hobbsee> Universe freeze on the 26th or so. Make sure all updated versions are in by then. If they're not, then you'll need to file freeze exception requests, etc.
[12:28] <toma> apoligies excepted ;-)
[12:28] <toma> accepted
[12:28] <Hobbsee> as a FYI
[12:28] <Riddell> Hobbsee: "Any other random agenda points from Hobbsee. "
[12:28] <Hobbsee> while i have the floor
[12:28] <Hobbsee> -1 on the power button calls the logout button, idea
[12:28] <imbrandon> why ?
[12:28] <Riddell> Hobbsee: why?
[12:28] <Hobbsee> but we should make sure that kde gets saved - maybe call logout kde, then shut down?
[12:28] <gnomefreak> kind of liked that idea
[12:28] <allee> yes, FDL stuff is fixed upstream  -0.8.2-r1.tar.gz
[12:29] <Hobbsee> what happens when you try to use the shutdown button to shut down the computer, ie when i'ts hardlocked?
[12:29] <toma> allee: k
[12:29] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, you hold the button 4 seconds and the hardware takes care of it
[12:29] <Riddell> Hobbsee: on most computers you hold it down for 5 seconds and it shuts down
[12:29] <Hobbsee> Riddell: so that wouldnt change?
[12:29] <imbrandon> yea its part of the ATX spec
[12:29] <Hobbsee> oh right
[12:29] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, no thats hardware 
[12:29] <Riddell> Hobbsee: no
[12:29] <Hobbsee> (how inconvenient is the power button to hit anyway?)
[12:30] <Hobbsee> anyway, point.
[12:30] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: ati standard
[12:30] <allee> toma: and -r1 pkgs are in sid
[12:30] <imbrandon> Tonio_, atx ;)
[12:30] <toma> allee: are you going to try a new merge into edgy?
[12:30] <Hobbsee> havent thought of any random agenda points yet, but for all the MOTU's, there's a REVU day on the 8th.  lets attack those packages, some of them have been there for ages.
[12:30] <Tonio_> imbrandon: hu, OMG I said ati, sorry :)
[12:30] <imbrandon> hehe
[12:30] <Tonio_> imbrandon: should change my graphic card
[12:31] <Riddell> I'll try and do some REVUing tomorrow
[12:31] <Tonio_> so yes Hobbsee every computer that is less that 5 to 6 years handles this
[12:31] <Hawkwind> I do have a suggestion to make once all the agenda points are covered that wasn't on the agenda
[12:31] <Hobbsee> cool
[12:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: ping me eventually, I can spend time on this too
[12:31] <allee> toma: no.  I'm still covered with work to do any OSS stuff  (beside FAI for dapper, that I need for work right now ;)
[12:31] <Hobbsee> nothing else, currently
[12:31] <Riddell> "Translations are currently broken", not sure who's agenda item that is but it should go on Tonio_'s bugs page
[12:32] <Riddell> kde.pot isn't being handled right somewhere
[12:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: that my item
[12:32] <toma> Riddell: are there translations for kde 3.5.4 for dapper available?
[12:32] <Riddell> toma: no
[12:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: I already looked at that and that's not kubunt specific bug
[12:32] <Riddell> toma: well, kde-i18n packages should be on kubuntu.org
[12:32] <Tonio_> that exactly the same issue we had during the dapper dev cycle...
[12:32] <Tonio_> only half of the translation appears
[12:33] <Riddell> Tonio_: it's the stock strings from kde.pot that are the problem, I'll look into it
[12:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: shouldn't we ping pitty instead ?
[12:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay
[12:33] <Riddell> Tonio_: might be my fault, might be rosetta's fault or might be pitti's fault, I don't know yet
[12:33] <Riddell> probably mine :)
[12:33] <Riddell> autoscroll in konqueror
[12:33] <toma> Riddell: did you talk to rosetta people about the kde translators concerns?
[12:34] <Riddell> toma: no, I need to do that too
[12:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes that's another of my items
[12:34] <toma> Riddell: ok, np
[12:34] <Riddell> toma: I'll do that tomorrow
[12:34] <toma> great
[12:34] <Tonio_> toma and I have patched konqueror to have that function rocking as much as in firefox
[12:34] <Tonio_> the patch in now in kdelibs, which is a good point
[12:34] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'm not a fan of autoscroll mostly because I like middle click to paste URL
[12:34] <Tonio_> firefox provides this function by default
[12:34] <Hobbsee> Riddell: Jucato: has an agenda item, too
[12:34] <Riddell> and the konqueror implementation has bugs like pasting into textareas doesn'twork
[12:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: middle click to paste still works if you middle click on the tab bar
[12:35] <toma> yes, that is my problem with it as well
[12:35] <Tonio_> sounds like a good compromise to me
[12:35] <toma> not for the textarea's
[12:35] <toma> ah, compromise
[12:35] <seaLne> thats much harder and requires moving mouse
[12:35] <Tonio_> the point is that a very few kubuntu users are using konqueror in the first place because they prefer the features of firefox
[12:36] <Hobbsee> sorry, what cna you still paste with this scenerio?
[12:36] <Tonio_> we should focus on making konqueror working the way Joe prefers
[12:36] <Tonio_> ;)
[12:36] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: or just add/replace it with firefox.  *ducks*
[12:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: there is no pb in pasting urls if you middle click on the tab bar, which sounds logic and makes sense to me
[12:36] <allee> Tonio_: noone here misses it (but we all have scroll wheels)
[12:36] <Riddell> Tonio_: it's still broken with pasteing in textareas, which is a killer for me
[12:37] <imbrandon> middle clicking the tab bar in ff closes the tab
[12:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum...... let me test
[12:37] <Riddell> middle click to close sounds evil
[12:37] <toma> Tonio_: that is the reason i turned it off too
[12:37] <Jucato> heh
[12:37] <Riddell> especially if you're used to pasting URLs
[12:37] <imbrandon> Riddell, it is, very evil
[12:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: pasting in textareas works here
[12:38] <Tonio_> middle click pastes correctly
[12:38] <toma> Tonio_: not with middle mouse button, from the konsole or example
[12:38] <Tonio_> toma: just done it and it is okay
[12:38] <toma> hmff
[12:38] <Riddell> how do I turn on scroll agian?
[12:38] <Hobbsee> Riddell: middle click?
[12:39] <toma> if that works, i dont have a problem with it
[12:39] <pitti> hi
[12:39] <imbrandon> lo pitti
[12:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: konq settings, web management blabla and uncheck "use middle click to........"
[12:39] <cbx33> pitti, hi
[12:39] <Tonio_> not sure of the english but it's like that
[12:39] <Jucato> in Web Behaviour, uncheck "Middle click opens URL in selection"
[12:39] <Riddell> nope, definately still broken for textareas for me
[12:40] <Riddell> it does paste, but it also scrolls too
[12:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: humf...
[12:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah yes I can see this too
[12:40] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, PM me or i'll forget
[12:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: so fix this and I'll consider it :)
[12:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: hehe
[12:40] <toma> Riddell: tsss
[12:40] <fabo> :)
[12:40] <Riddell> ok, any other items
[12:40] <Tonio_> toma: ready to help again on that point ?
[12:40] <Hobbsee> Riddell: that means it's hard to paste when the page is scrolling randomly?  :P
[12:41] <Hobbsee> Riddell: sure, a status update on imbrandon's plans for an integrated firefox
[12:41] <Tonio_> toma: I don't feel capable to do this on my own :)
[12:41] <toma> Tonio_: same here ;-)
[12:41] <toma> Tonio_: but we can have a look, but not very soon ;-(
[12:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: ready to help ? :)
[12:41] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, i havent touched it yet, i was / am waiting on iwj to "finish"
[12:41] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: ah okay
[12:42] <Riddell> yes, Hawkwind had an item
[12:42] <Jucato> Hawkwind?
[12:42] <Riddell> guess he fell asleep
[12:42] <Riddell> any other items?
[12:42] <Jucato> :)
[12:43] <imbrandon> Riddell, whats for breakfast ? j/k
[12:43] <Hawkwind> I'm here now
[12:43] <Jucato> it was about the 10th anniversary of KDE
[12:43] <Hobbsee> Riddell: if not, Jucato can step in and do it
[12:43] <Hobbsee> mmm...breakfast
[12:43] <Jucato> oh there he is
[12:43] <Hawkwind> Since this year is the 10th anniversary of KDE....can we do something special within Edgy to commemorate it ?
[12:43] <toma> good idea
[12:43] <Riddell> KDE 4 packages aren't special enough?
[12:43] <Hawkwind> Could be something graphical or most anything.  Just think it would be a neat idea to let it be known to the user how long it's been around
[12:43] <imbrandon> hehe
[12:43] <Hobbsee> Riddell: well....
[12:44] <Riddell> Hawkwind: more concrete ideas would be useful
[12:44] <ttread> one of the example docs - or a little movie...
[12:44] <Riddell> I agree something would be cool, but I don't know what
[12:44] <toma> can we add a special desktop for that day
[12:44] <Riddell> toma: nice
[12:44] <Hobbsee> how close are we for cd space, by the way?  on a related note?
[12:45] <Riddell> ttread: nice but example-docs already takes up too much space
[12:45] <Hawkwind> Riddell: I was thinking of some kind of graphic during start up or something.  Or maybe a 10th anniversary screen when konqueror starts
[12:45] <kwwii> ping kwwii to ask about the graphics
[12:45] <Riddell> Hobbsee: too close
[12:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum, hard to do for people using their own wallpaper :)
[12:45] <ttread> ok
[12:45] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, last i checked without removing anything we had about 38mb free
[12:45] <Hobbsee> Riddell: well, yeah, but how much do we have?
[12:45] <Hobbsee> that will cut out most videos
[12:45] <Hobbsee> right
[12:45] <sfllaw> @schedule Montreal
[12:45] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: Current meeting: Kubuntu | 07 Sep 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Sep 16:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 08:00: Community Council
[12:45] <Riddell> imbrandon: less on other arches
[12:45] <sfllaw> @schedule America/Montreal
[12:45] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: Current meeting: Kubuntu | 07 Sep 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Sep 16:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 08:00: Community Council
[12:45] <Riddell> hi sfllaw, welcome to the kubuntu meeting
[12:45] <imbrandon> Riddell, true i only checked i386
[12:45] <Jucato> I guess graphics would be our only option then?
[12:45] <Hawkwind> Hah
[12:45] <Hobbsee> sfllaw: we're in a meeting :P
[12:46] <Riddell> kwwii: do you know if there's any plans for 10th anniversary graphics?
[12:47] <toma> Hobbsee: well if you have video's, we can add a main menu item on all apps to point to that on that day
[12:47] <imbrandon> i think a nice graphic in the "about" box in the edgy release would be simple and small and still seen
[12:47] <sfllaw> Sorry.
[12:47] <imbrandon> Riddell, ^
[12:47] <kwwii> Riddell: nope, until now, there is none
[12:47] <mdz> Riddell: please wrap up within the next 10m so we can get started with the dev meeting
[12:47] <Riddell> mdz: we're about there
[12:48] <Hawkwind> imbrandon: +1 on that idea.  It doesn't have to be big at all
[12:48] <Hobbsee> mdz: we're taking over your dev meeting, didnt you know?  :P
[12:48] <Hobbsee> toma: right, yeah.  i dont
[12:48] <Riddell> someone could contact basse for a konqi graphic/video
[12:48] <sivang> topic
[12:49] <kwwii> Riddell: that is a very good idea
[12:49] <kwwii> in fact, I think that someone has already done that
[12:49] <kwwii> torsten
[12:49] <Riddell> clever tackat
[12:49] <kwwii> now that you mention it :-)
[12:49] <Jucato> one of the older Konqi videos?
[12:49] <kwwii> no, to make a new one
[12:49] <Jucato> ah
[12:49] <Riddell> I'll talk to tackat and see where that is
[12:50] <imbrandon> ok ....... moving on ? ( sorry i'm hungery for food )
[12:50] <Riddell> imbrandon: I'm done
[12:50] <imbrandon> hehe
[12:50] <Riddell> any other business?
[12:50] <Riddell> thanks for coming all
[12:50] <Hobbsee> Jucato: heh, i'll bet
[12:50] <toma> next meeting?
[12:50] <Hobbsee> next meeting time?
[12:50] <Hobbsee> it's not really fair on Jucato having a 5am meeting.
[12:51] <Hobbsee> and i'm pretty useless, even at 7am
[12:51] <Jucato> heh it's ok. I'll get used to it :)
[12:51] <claydoh> heck Im useless and its 7 PM :)
[12:51] <Jucato> heh
[12:51] <toma> i'm fine on friday at 11pm ;-)
[12:51] <kwwii> see most of you later...see those in the developer meeting in a few minutes
[12:52] <Riddell> yep, suggestions of meeting times welcome
[12:53] <toma> nite all
[12:53] <Tonio_> toma: nite ;)
[12:53] <seaLne> what about a early morning GMT meeting?
[12:53] <Tonio_> toma: just a second plz :)
[12:53] <Tonio_> argh
[12:53] <imbrandon> early gmt time is fine by me, we wont get everyone every meeting ;)
[12:54] <imbrandon> we should rotate
[12:54] <Hobbsee> lets discuss it in #kubuntu-devel but perhaps it's more of an issue nwo than it was
[12:54] <imbrandon> sweet , carry any spillover to #kubuntu-devel /me is afk to get some food 
[12:54] <Hobbsee> we need to make sure we have quroum, at least
[12:55] <kwwii> hehe, at least I am early for the next meeting :-)
[12:55] <kwwii> hi fschoep
[12:55] <dholbach> hi seb128, hi fschoep
[12:55] <fschoep> Hi kwwii, everyone
[12:55] <seb128> hey dholbach
[12:55] <fschoep> Hi dholbach
[12:57] <jono> howdy doody
[12:57] <mdz> jono: evening
[12:57] <Hobbsee> hey all
[12:57] <jono> hey mdz :)
[12:57] <jono> hey Hobbsee 
[12:57] <Fujitsu> Morning, jono.
[12:57] <Hobbsee> hi jono.  you didnt make it to kubuntu meeting?
[12:58] <jono> hey Fujitsu 
[12:58] <jono> Hobbsee, yeah I was out tonight
[12:58] <Hobbsee> jono: ah okay.  shame.  you could do what i did - come in over half way thru or something :P
[12:58] <jono> Hobbsee, I only just got in :)
[12:58] <jono> Hobbsee, good meeting ?
[12:59] <Hobbsee> jono: didnt make most of it, and the part i was there for i wasnt terribly awake :P
[12:59] <jono> hehe
[12:59] <mdz> missing infinity, iwj and BenC
[12:59] <mvo> hello
[01:00] <mdz> good evening, folks
[01:00] <sfllaw> Evening.
[01:00] <sfllaw> How was Black Rock?
[01:00] <pitti> good evening everyone
[01:00] <mdz> my holidays were excellent, but I'm back in full-on work mode now
[01:00] <mdz> we have a lot of ground to cover, with feature freeze upon us
[01:01] <mdz> so we'll dive right in
[01:01] <mdz> infinity: welcome
[01:01] <mdz> pitti: would you start us off?
[01:01] <iwj> Hi.  Sorry I'm a bit late ...
[01:02] <pitti> sure
[01:02] <mdz> iwj: we're just getting started
[01:02] <pitti> Done:
[01:02] <pitti>  * started to catch up with security updates after the two weeks break: PHP, bind, kernel (just coordination), mailman, libxfont/X.org, imagemagick, openssl, MySQL 
[01:02] <pitti>  * apport: implemented bug pattern matching backend and GUI (so that apport-gtk directs you to an already existing bug rather than asking you to file a new one)
[01:02] <pitti>  * SoC reviews and reports
[01:02] <pitti>  * merged cupsys and updated to 1.2.3; not yet uploaded since I have to fix a regression
[01:02] <pitti> Todo:
[01:02] <pitti>  * more security updates (arrgh)
[01:02] <pitti>  * catch up on my overflowing bugs inbox
[01:02] <pitti>  * finish cups 1.2.3 and upload
[01:02] <pitti>  * fix high-profile langpack-o-matic bug and prepare new packages (BLOCKED: *-updates embargo; mdz?)
[01:02] <pitti>  * ensure that php and mysql get new upstream versions (infinity or I)
[01:02] <pitti>  * finish gnutls12->13 transition
[01:02] <pitti>  * start bug fixing
[01:02] <pitti> spec status:
[01:02] <pitti>  * apt-get-debug-symbols (Deployment): distro side is ready, needs buildd infrastructure work to get .ddebs to people.u.c (to be implemented next week with infinity)
[01:02] <mdz> pitti: how much remains in the queue for security?
[01:02] <pitti>  * automated-problem-reports (Implemented): does not yet catch all corner cases, this requires an updated kernel implementation which will (most likely) be deferred to Edgy+1; but basic functionality is working apart from some bugs
[01:02] <pitti>  * gcc-ssp (Implemented): Distro side changes are implemented for a long time; still need to check current build coverage, and perhaps do no-change uploads to important packages
[01:02] <pitti>  * auto-unmount-notifications (Implemented): works a bit too good (also for readonly devices), but I consider that a bug
[01:03] <pitti> mdz: the kernel still needs to be pushed out, some embargoed stuff that is lifted next week, and about 5 public issues
[01:03] <pitti> mdz: (I don't have the exact number in my head, I just work through them case by case)
[01:03] <mdz> pitti: looks like you are in good shape for feature freeze, congrats
[01:03] <pitti> mdz: will you say some words about the *-update embargo?
[01:03] <pitti> mdz: thanks :)
[01:04] <mdz> we're in the process of revising and formalizing the process for updates to stable releases
[01:04] <pitti> mdz: do infinity and I have your blessing to implement the .ddeb retrieval later?
[01:04] <mdz> until that work is finished, only security fixes are permitted
[01:04] <pitti> mdz: I hope it won't be too heavy for langpack updates ;)
[01:04] <mdz> queue any -updates uploads locally until then
[01:04] <pitti> but I totally agree that we should revise the policy
[01:05] <pitti> we should also do a dry run of that proposed 'block bad versions with a fake version on security.u.c' approach
[01:05] <mdz> I'm going to focus on prevention, though we'll think through some contingency plans
[01:05] <mdz> KISS will apply though
[01:06] <mdz> pitti: thank you
[01:06] <mdz> Mithrandir: next?
[01:06] <Mithrandir> live-cd-write-as-you-go: Needs a fair bit of infrastructure before it can happen, namely an udflinux similar to isolinux.
[01:06] <Mithrandir> misc: X bugfixes.  Rodarvus and I seem to have divided the workload so he gets the server and drivers, I get the apps and libs.  Also played a fair bit with Xen.  Casper bugfixes.  Helped Colin a bit with sane-installer-keyboard (but he's done most of the implementation, by far)
[01:06] <Mithrandir> next week: bug triage, Knot 3 release in a week.
[01:06] <Mithrandir> l-c-w-a-y-g is therefore deferred
[01:06] <mdz> Mithrandir: how did knot 2 go?
[01:07] <Mithrandir> decent; some last-minute changes which I in retrospect wish I'd asked to postpone, but it wasn't too painful.
[01:07] <mdz> Mithrandir: how about the testing in the certification lab?
[01:08] <mdz> is that working out?
[01:08] <Mithrandir> yeah, slowly.
[01:08] <mdz> how are they reporting their results?
[01:08] <Mithrandir> as in, getting there.
[01:08] <Mithrandir> the wiki, as usual.
[01:08] <Mithrandir> at least, that's been the goal.  I need to be better at cleaning the grid when we build a new iso
[01:09] <mdz> add it to the checklist
[01:09] <Mithrandir> also, we uncovered some brokenness in Launchpad, but I think that's fixed now
[01:09] <Mithrandir> infinity: ^^?
[01:09] <infinity> Mithrandir: The frozen breakage?  Not sure if those fixes have been rolled out, I'll chase that up before we try to freeze again.
[01:10] <mdz> please subscribe me to the relevant bugs if they're causing release blockage
[01:10] <Mithrandir> infinity: yeah, that's what I was thinking about.  Basically, FROZEN doesn't work.  And I can't freeze the distro.
[01:10] <Mithrandir> both being kinda problematic if I'm going to drive the release.
[01:10] <mdz> Mithrandir: did you have that UI review with mpt regarding live-cd-sessions?
[01:11] <Mithrandir> mdz: I thought I sent that mail, but I never chased it up, so either he never got it or forgot.  I'll do that even though we're post-FF.
[01:11] <mdz> give him some time to think on it, it'll be good to have on hand when we resume that
[01:12] <mdz> thanks Mithrandir
[01:12] <mdz> infinity: next
[01:12] <infinity> Done:
[01:12] <infinity>  * debian-maintainer-field: Maintainer field mangling is in the archive and active on the buildds, and working as advertised.
[01:12] <infinity>  * live-cd-stacked-filesystems: Just recieved word that elmo has given me the kernel support I need on the buildds, so will roll this out in production after I've slept today.
[01:12] <infinity>  * larger-livefs: Still needs creation of a seed for live-dvd, but when live-cd-stacked-filesystems is rolled out, this one basically takes care of itself.
[01:12] <infinity>  * A fair amount of buildd wrangling this week, unsnaring the usual "new GNOME breakage", dealing with chroots not updating properly, etc.
[01:12] <infinity>  * General weekly tasks (archive maintenance, tracking soyuz bugs and misfeatures, etc)
[01:12] <infinity> Todo:
[01:12] <infinity>  * New upstream releases of PHP, MySQL, and Samba, all done in Debian, just need to get UVFs and quickly merge/sync them.
[01:12] <infinity>  * Make sure live-cd-stacked-filesystems/larger-livefs actually work in production.
[01:12] <infinity>  * Attack bug lists and FTBFS lists.
[01:12] <mdz> (thanks)
[01:13] <mdz> Mithrandir: have you been able to test your portion of live-cd-stacked-filesystems at all, or is that blocked on having them built on the buildds?
[01:13] <Mithrandir> mdz: I have tested it with locally built images.
[01:14] <pitti> infinity: (for the record, we do have the php UVF ER)
[01:14] <pitti> infinity: ... approval)
[01:14] <mdz> infinity: go ahead and create the dvd seed; it should have all language-{support,pack} for all languages
[01:14] <infinity> pitti: Yeah, I know, but we don't for the other two, and I'm a lazy typist. :)
[01:14] <Mithrandir> mdz: I haven't tested it with official images, naturally, since we don't have them yet.
[01:14] <mdz> Mithrandir: right, thanks
[01:14] <seb128> infinity: what causes the "new GNOME breakage"? The stricts Depends between arch all and any packages?
[01:15] <mdz> infinity: check with Kamion if you're in doubt about the germination
[01:15] <pitti> infinity: will the dvd seed be a superset of the CD seed, or an independent copy?
[01:15] <infinity> seb128: Yeah, when arches get a bit out of sync, the world explodes and I get to unsnag it all by hand.  It's something I'm generally used to.  When new GNOME hits, I tend to get to dedicate a couple of days to making it happy everywhere.
[01:15] <Kamion> the appropriate runes are in the supported seed
[01:15] <Kamion> pitti: live-dvd would inherit from live, technically
[01:15] <mdz> pitti: it will be an independent seed, but stacked on top of the existing live image
[01:15] <pitti> Kamion: that's good
[01:16] <pitti> so no duplication AFAIUI
[01:16] <mdz> right
[01:16] <seb128> infinity: would delay upload between libs and app make the job easier for you?
[01:16] <infinity> seb128: It could help a bit, but unless you want to stagger your uploads by days, something will always break.  *shrug*
[01:16] <seb128> k
[01:16] <seb128> so not a lot we can do for you :/
[01:17] <infinity> seb128: To be honest, I prefer to see you and Daniel just upload as much as you can and get back to bugfixing while I do my job.
[01:17] <mdz> infinity: ok, thanks
[01:17] <mdz> dholbach: next
[01:17] <seb128> ok, fine with me
[01:17] <infinity> seb128: Each to their strengths. :)
[01:17] <dholbach> Done:
[01:17] <dholbach>     * GNOME 2.16
[01:17] <dholbach>     * Bugs
[01:17] <dholbach>     * Artwork uploads and work on Art-Builder
[01:17] <dholbach> Todo:
[01:17] <dholbach>     * more Bug Triage
[01:17] <dholbach>     * more Art-Builder
[01:17] <dholbach>     * REVU DAY tomorrow!
[01:17] <dholbach>     * get new gnome-pilot in, get missing telepathy packages in before UniverseFreeze
[01:17] <dholbach>     * start on apt-get.org import
[01:17] <dholbach> 
[01:17] <mdz> GNOME 2.16.0 is complete?
[01:17] <sfllaw> Yay!
[01:18] <dholbach> yes
[01:18] <seb128> mdz: yep
[01:18] <mdz> excellent, seb128/dholbach
[01:18] <dholbach> gracias :-)
[01:18] <seb128> :
[01:18] <seb128> :)
[01:18] <mdz> dholbach: how is art-builder going?  that's the arrangement we discussed in wiesbaden?
[01:19] <dholbach> mdz: exactly - it's checking out and building already, but not very clever yet (it doesn't do changes to buildsystems, etc)
[01:19] <pitti> Seb'128 packages a day'astien
[01:19] <dholbach> mdz: i didn't put too much time in it yet
[01:19] <dholbach> pitti: ah ah :-P
[01:19] <mdz> dholbach: ok, send me an email when there's something to see; I'd like to look at it
[01:20] <dholbach> mdz: sure
[01:20] <mdz> thanks dholbach
[01:20] <mdz> kwwii: next
[01:20] <seb128> pitti: :)
[01:20] <kwwii> Did the Hardware Database interface pics, selected icons, edited a few and made a couple of new ones.
[01:20] <kwwii> Finished almost all (all currently used as far as I can tell) of the power manager icons (one or two still need to be done)
[01:20] <kwwii> Played with a two ideas for both versions of the usplash
[01:21] <kwwii> Worked on evolving the theme to the blue-purple variant
[01:21] <kwwii> Tweaking KDM and Ksplash theme
[01:21] <kwwii> TODO:
[01:21] <kwwii> USPLASH - top of the list...following questions; which version will be used? When will testing be done? (how in the hell do I get it to work on my eMac?) :-)
[01:21] <kwwii> Got Amarok running again on my machine, finishing up the work on the amarok theme
[01:21] <kwwii> Release announcement pic
[01:21] <kwwii> pics for wiki.kubuntu.org header
[01:21] <kwwii> Finish the tweaking of the "about" pages, make that match with the metabar pics
[01:21] <kwwii> Change all pics and color schemes to the blue-purple theme by knot3
[01:21] <kwwii> the usplash is the biggest issue for me
[01:21] <fschoep> +1
[01:21] <kwwii> fschoep: ;-)
[01:21] <fschoep> But at least there's something happening on the art ML now
[01:22] <mdz> kwwii: of the 7 components we discussed (usplash, wallpaper, window decorations, kdm login, ksplash, app start pages, icons), how much of that has landed in edgy for feature freeze?
[01:22] <fschoep> Seveas is doing some work there
[01:22] <Seveas> My work on usplash is done
[01:22] <Seveas> mjg59 is doing the hard work
[01:22] <kwwii> mdz: all of it
[01:22] <Riddell> except usplash
[01:22] <fschoep> Seveas: OK, good to hear - glad you made it
[01:22] <kwwii> mdz: it is all tweaking and bug fixing from here on out
[01:22] <kwwii> and the usplash
[01:22] <kwwii> thanks Riddell
[01:23] <kwwii> that is why the usplash is on top of the lsit
[01:23] <kwwii> list
[01:23] <kwwii> the new usplash stuff came out last night...the big question is will that version be used?
[01:23] <mdz> kwwii: what's blocking it?  testing on your machine?
[01:23] <kwwii> ie...how much time should be put into making the new version
[01:23] <mdz> my two issues with it were the virtual console corruption and hibernation breakage.
[01:23] <Kamion> kwwii: it'll be used, unless it turns out to be so buggy it's easier to revert than fix
[01:23] <kwwii> mdz: although I cannot test it on my machine, I have some basic stuff done already
[01:24] <mdz> the latter was apparently a kernel bug, and mjg59 believes the former fixed
[01:24] <kwwii> I cannot get it to run on either of my ppc machines
[01:24] <mdz> mjg59: how confident are you about it today?
[01:24] <mjg59> Mm?
[01:24] <Kamion> I was thinking of poking at it on powerpc tomorrow
[01:24] <mjg59> Oh, the console corruption?
[01:24] <mjg59> That's sorted
[01:24] <mdz> mjg59: shiny usplash
[01:24] <mdz> in general
[01:24] <mjg59> Yeah
[01:24] <mdz> for edgy feature freeze
[01:24] <Kamion> I just haven't had time before FF
[01:24] <mjg59> Works now
[01:24] <mdz> are you aware of the amd64 issue pitti mentioned?
[01:24] <mjg59> The PPC stuff is buggy but easily fixed
[01:24] <pitti> are we definitively committed to using the hi-res usplash for edgy?
[01:24] <mdz> pitti: that's what we're trying to determine
[01:25] <mjg59> I'm running it on amd64 right this second
[01:25] <kwwii> I made a usplash for the old version too, to if we have to revert, I am ready
[01:25] <pitti> ATM it works neither on my powerpc nor on my amd64
[01:25] <mdz> this is decision time
[01:25] <kwwii> but still, everything else is done to some extent, the usplash is still the test theme
[01:25] <Kamion> I don't expect getting it to work on powerpc would take much effort
[01:25] <pitti> mjg59: oh, right, it was nvidia specific, right?
[01:25] <mdz> kwwii: ok, no need to wait then; land the high-res stuff
[01:25] <mjg59> There may be issues on specific hardware, but in general it's fine
[01:25] <Kamion> I made it work on powerpc initially way back when, and it was only a few hours' work
[01:25] <seb128> my desktop doesn't boot with the new usplash
[01:25] <mdz> seb128: filed a bug?
[01:25] <kwwii> mdz: cool, will do 
[01:25] <mjg59> seb128: Is that new as in generally, or new as in since this morning?
[01:26] <seb128> mdz: not yet 
[01:26] <Seveas> seb128, 'new usplash' is rather undescriptive, 4 versions landed in the past 2 days, each fixing several bugs
[01:26] <Kamion> Seveas: 5 :)
[01:26] <Seveas> heh
[01:26] <sivang> hi all
[01:26] <kwwii> it would be really cool to get it working on ppc well so that I can test what I am making
[01:26] <sivang> sorry for being late.
[01:26] <mjg59> seb128: I believe those too be fixed
[01:26] <seb128> mjg59: new from this week, but services-admin basically emptied my /etc/rc[0-6] .d and I only restored a part of it so I want to reinstall before opening a bug
[01:27] <mdz> seb128: ok, please confirm this week (with a live CD if that's easiest)
[01:27] <mjg59> At the moment I'm trying to work out why a piece of previously working hardware is now failing to (as far as I can tell) even execute the Linux wakeup code
[01:27] <seb128> I get the splash followed by a black screen instead of gdm
[01:27] <mjg59> seb128: Yes, that should be fixed
[01:27] <seb128> mdz: yeah, will do tomorrow
[01:28] <mdz> kwwii: Kamion will have a try at it when he gets a chance
[01:28] <seb128> mjg59: will try after meeting with the current version to make sure
[01:28] <mdz> kwwii: if possible try on another machine
[01:28] <seb128> I might not have rebooted since the update
[01:28] <mdz> kwwii: or have Riddell email you photos :-)
[01:28] <kwwii> :-)
[01:28] <mdz> kwwii: thanks
[01:28] <mdz> fschoep: next
[01:28] <fschoep> Done:
[01:28] <fschoep>  * theme-teams: collect final versions of artwork
[01:28] <fschoep>  * community artwork: package best available artwork, mad props to Daniel Holbach on this one as well
[01:28] <fschoep>  * community artwork: contact sabdfl on progress and direction
[01:28] <fschoep>  * sound-themes: package best available sounds
[01:28] <fschoep>  * gtk-theme: minor tweaks
[01:28] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-polish-human-icons: finalized iconprio stuff, props to Daniel again for updating the website, contacted sabdfl along the  way
[01:28] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-complete-highcon-icons: introduced Henrik to tienne Bersace, looks like this is going to go well
[01:28] <fschoep> Ongoing:
[01:28] <fschoep>  * art-polish-human-gtk-theme: decide on color tweaks based on artwork direction
[01:28] <fschoep>  * community-artwork: polish and rework parts to sabdfl's liking, fix outstanding bugs
[01:28] <fschoep>  * sound-themes: tweaking and polishing of sounds
[01:28] <fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-polish-human-icons: contact Dave to start work after sabdfl approves the scheduled list of work
[01:28] <fschoep> Blocked:
[01:28] <fschoep>  * theme-teams: there seems to be no Art Council in place, who will approve theme team work for inclusion?
[01:29] <fschoep>  * usplash-artwork: running to stand still - has the target stopped moving yet?
[01:29] <iwj> fschoep: I saw some mails or questions from my week off about the firefox human theme; did you get the help you needed ?
[01:29] <mdz> fschoep: which components have landed in edgy today?
[01:29] <mdz> iwj: my firefox looks humanish
[01:30] <iwj> mdz: Mine too :-).
[01:30] <fschoep> iwj: Not sure what you mean?
[01:30] <dholbach> mdz: gdm, sounds, session, wallpapers, gtk theme
[01:30] <fschoep> darn
[01:30] <fschoep> thank dholbach 
[01:30] <iwj> fschoep: Well, if you don't have anything outstanding then that's fine by me :-4~).
[01:30] <kwwii> good to hear that fschoep and myself are both loosing sleep over the usplash :-)
[01:30] <iwj> Oops, my mouth exploded.
[01:30] <fschoep> iwj: I wondered though
[01:30] <mdz> dholbach: and what remains to be done?
[01:30] <fschoep> iwj: Is the Human theme now default for Edgy?
[01:30] <fschoep> mdz: usplash
[01:30] <fschoep> mdz: human icons, GTK color tweaks
[01:31] <mdz> fschoep: are there candidates for usplash?
[01:31] <fschoep> mdz: some bland and ugly ones
[01:31] <fschoep> based on 16 color 640x400 restrictions
[01:31] <mdz> nothing we can roll out?
[01:31] <iwj> fschoep: Yes; I put that change into the main bzr so you'll have picked it up and as mdz says default setups get it now.
[01:31] <fschoep> mdz: we can roll something out, sure but it will hardly be better and less colorful than the test card
[01:31] <mdz> fschoep: please get a high-res one together; if nothing else we can use the standard logo and it will look better than what we have
[01:32] <Seveas> (there is a test 1024x768 + 800x600 theme in the usplash source using many of the new shiny features)
[01:32] <fschoep> mdz: sabdfl kind of disgrees there
[01:32] <mdz> fschoep: today is the deadline
[01:32] <fschoep> mdz: I think -
[01:32] <fschoep> mdz: well
[01:32] <Keybuk> remember that the usplash artwork should go in the themes packages
[01:32] <Keybuk> not in the usplash package
[01:32] <fschoep> mdz: I need some input on Mark first
[01:33] <mdz> fschoep: he's travelling and we cannot block on him
[01:33] <Seveas> Keybuk, i know -- the theme won't even build in-tree
[01:33] <Seveas> That's the reason I split off usplash-dev
[01:33] <kwwii> fschoep: I should discuss the usplash with you...from the wishes for the dapper cycle and the new 256 color, I get we could do something nice
[01:33] <kwwii> s/get/bet
[01:33] <mdz> fschoep: it's important to get this in; we can still iterate on it but need a starting point now
[01:33] <fschoep> mdz: sure, I think
[01:34] <fschoep> mdz: like, now?
[01:34] <mdz> fschoep: tomorrow
[01:34] <fschoep> mdz: OK, I'll get something in
[01:34] <mdz> fschoep: thanks; let me know if you run into trouble
[01:34] <fschoep> mdz: OK
[01:34] <mdz> Kamion: next
[01:35] <fschoep> uh
[01:35] <fschoep> Can I please get some input on the Art Council question?
[01:35] <Kamion> (waiting)
[01:35] <fschoep> Is there going to be one soon?
[01:35] <fschoep> Does anyone remotely know what the AC is going to be?
[01:35] <mdz> fschoep: you make the call on the themes to include
[01:36] <fschoep> mdz: OK
[01:36] <mdz> the release can't block on organizing a new team
[01:36] <mdz> Kamion: go ahead
[01:36] <Kamion> Done:
[01:36] <Kamion>   cdrom-based-dist-upgrades: Added upgrader to CD images, thanks to a patch from mvo.
[01:36] <Kamion>   no-more-devfs: Done.
[01:36] <Kamion>   livefs-access: Sound support theoretically in, but it appears to produce just beeps at best and it's hideous assembly code that I don't understand, so I've disabled this. However, we did manage to improve keyboard navigation on the accessibility menu and clean up some of the access options.
[01:36] <Kamion>   sane-installer-keyboard: Mostly done, apart from translations of layout and variant names, which will probably take a while to organise. We can test all the rest of it without that though. I'll push console-s
[01:36] <mdz> mvo: is c-b-d-u testable?
[01:36] <Kamion> etup up to minimal tomorrow morning once my upgrade path changes have built.
[01:36] <Kamion>   live-cd-stacked-filesystems: Wrote the ubiquity side of this, which will be needed once the filesystems appear in corruption.
[01:36] <mvo> mdz: yes
[01:36] <Kamion>   misc: Reviewed and merged oem-config KDE patch from abattoir. Haven't tested it yet.
[01:36] <Kamion> Deferred:
[01:36] <Kamion>   ubiquity-advanced-partitioner: I decided I wasn't going to get far enough with this before FF to be worth the time right now, so I've deferred it. Oh well.
[01:36] <Kamion> To do:
[01:36] <Kamion>   sane-installer-keyboard: I expect to spend much of next week sorting out loose ends here (with Tollef, if he's available).
[01:36] <mdz> mvo: does it require a dapper backport?
[01:36] <Kamion>   misc: Google Summer of Code final reports, and whatever else comes up. usplash powerpc debugging, as discussed.
[01:36] <mdz> I think I mailed about this, but don't remember your reply
[01:37] <mvo> mdz: full support yes, if we are happy with documenting to run "sh /cdrom/cdromdistupgrade", then not
[01:37] <mdz> mvo: we'll want full support certainly
[01:37] <mvo> full support == hal based cd detection
[01:37] <mdz> mvo: I assume it's trivial reuse of the code we already had
[01:37] <mvo> yes
[01:38] <mvo> the patch should be easy (and the feature was done in a seperate bzr branch to make the backporting easy)
[01:39] <mdz> Kamion: are you confident about sane-installer-keyboard?
[01:39] <Kamion> mdz: yes, reasonably. Upstream says it still has trouble with non-PC-like keymaps but that's at worst confined to powerpc.
[01:39] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm happy to help out with s-i-k next week, yes.
[01:40] <mdz> ogra_: landing enormous merges during the feature freeze meeting -> grr
[01:40] <Kamion> And it's *so* much easier to hack than the old console framework.
[01:40] <ogra_> mdz, sorry 
[01:40] <mdz> Kamion: ok, thanks
[01:40] <mdz> ogra_: next
[01:40] <ogra_> * this-week:
[01:40] <ogra_>  - student-control-panel-completion - implemented by pete savage, waits for MIR review, spec still waiting for approval
[01:40] <ogra_>  - ltsp-login-and-session-handling - implemented, some cosmetic polish remains
[01:40] <ogra_>  - ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration - implemented, ready for knot 3
[01:40] <ogra_>  - fully-automatic-swap-server (no info, deferred i guess :/ )
[01:40] <ogra_>  - plenty of small patches (g-p-m, gnome-session etc)
[01:40] <ogra_> * next-week:
[01:40] <ogra_>  - clean up ltsp after the merges, hunt the last bugs
[01:40] <ogra_>  - go through gnome-screensaver/gnome-power-manager buglist
[01:40] <ogra_>  - knot 3
[01:40] <ogra_>  - flight to detroit ltsp meeting
[01:40] <ogra_> * other specs: 
[01:40] <ogra_>  - ltsp-daily-image-tarballs - talked to infinity, we want to meet after FF
[01:40] <ogra_>  - ltsp-convergence: (no progress, multi distro meeting sept. 14th-19th) according to sbalneav only 
[01:40] <ogra_>    two features (rdesktop and lp_server integration (the latter is on the buglist for edgy, needs some lines in 
[01:40] <Kamion> I expect the installer may glitch a bit tomorrow, but it shouldn't be hard to fix; I've run complete installs with console-setup in hacked-up environments.
[01:41] <ogra_>    the initscript and testing)) and optional xdmcp support missing
[01:41] <ogra_>  - ltsp-netboot-enhancement: code merged from debian (untested yet)
[01:41] <ogra_> Kamion, fine with me ... 
[01:41] <mdz> ogra_: rodarvus was working on f-a-s-s, no?  did he finish or pass on unfinished code?
[01:42] <ogra_> mdz, he said he was nearly done since two weeks before wiesbaden, but didnt want to show me the code
[01:42] <mdz> ogra_: please send an email asking for it and CC me
[01:42] <ogra_> last edubuntu meeting (wed.) he said he'd start from scratch :/
[01:43] <mdz> ogra_: your 3 edgy targets are all implemented, congrats
[01:43] <pitti> ogra_: do you need any urgent MIRs?
[01:43] <ogra_> mdz, ok, even though i have a workaround implemented that creates the swapfiles
[01:43] <mdz> I don't think I'll make it to the ltsp meeting
[01:43] <ogra_> so it *can* be defarred and get done rigght in edgy+1
[01:43] <ogra_> sad :/
[01:43] <mdz> ogra_: yes, I saw that and assumed it was fully-automatic-swap-server landing
[01:43] <ogra_> roger waters will miss you :)
[01:44] <mdz> tell roger hello
[01:44] <ogra_> no its just a call through the ltspfs socket to create the swapfiles
[01:44] <mdz> ogra_: you have booked your flight already, right?
[01:44] <sivang> ogra_: going to see pink floyd ?? :-)
[01:44] <ogra_> sivang, only roger :)
[01:44] <fschoep> wish you were here
[01:44] <ogra_> mdz, yup
[01:44] <ogra_> all sorted
[01:44] <mdz> ok, good
[01:44] <Keybuk> sivang: and I thought they said they didn't need no education
[01:45] <sivang> Keybuk: HAHA
[01:45] <mdz> ogra_: thanks
[01:45] <ogra_> i got a very nice mail from sbalneav today about the -convergence btw
[01:45] <mdz> has anyone heard from BenC?  I sent an SMS
[01:45] <ogra_> i'll forward it to you
[01:45] <Keybuk> mdz: only earlier today
[01:45] <sivang> ogra_: is he using edubuntu ?
[01:45] <mdz> Riddell: next
[01:45] <Riddell> done:
[01:45] <Riddell>     specs all implemented, except adept ones which are deferred
[01:45] <Riddell>     KDE oem-config testing, Colin has merged (thanks to abattoir)
[01:45] <Riddell>     kubuntu-hwdb: fixes, usability improvements and adding kwwii's artwork
[01:45] <Riddell>     langpacks-desktopfile-kde: working well, reuploaded everything to pick up .desktop file edits
[01:45] <ogra_> sivang, yes, ltsp.org completely emerged to ubuntu/edubuntu everywhere now
[01:45] <Riddell>     kubuntu-system-settings-usability: updated packages (thanks to sime for implementing), same for kubuntu-power-management (thanks to Lure and sebas for much work there)
[01:45] <Riddell>     kubuntu-accessibility: required casper changes in
[01:45] <Riddell>     KDE 4 pre-release packaged and in NEW
[01:45] <Riddell> blocked: ruby on ppc
[01:45] <Riddell> todo:
[01:45] <Riddell>     REVU day
[01:46] <Riddell>     koffice 1.6 beta
[01:46] <Riddell>     merge KDE ubiquity with Colin's changes to GTK frontend
[01:46] <Riddell>     look at moving ubuntu-docs from svn to bzr
[01:46] <Riddell>     knot 3
[01:46] <dholbach> Riddell: REVU DAY!
[01:46] <mdz> Riddell: what's wrong with ruby?
[01:46] <Kamion> KDE 4 is targeted at universe, I assume?
[01:46] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[01:46] <Riddell> mdz: doesn't compile on powerpc
[01:46] <Hobbsee> Riddell: the list of crucial "must fix" bugs for edgy, too
[01:46] <ogra_> ugh, two KDE versions  ? 
[01:46] <Riddell> Kamion: certainly
[01:46] <Kamion> I'll look at it tomorrow, it's my archive day
[01:46] <ogra_> that will cause confusion
[01:47] <Hobbsee> ogra_: dapper effectively runs with 3.  *shrugs*
[01:47] <Riddell> ogra_: they're clearly marked as being for developers only
[01:47] <mdz> there are alternate versions of all sorts of things in universe ;-)
[01:47] <mdz> Riddell: looking good, thanks
[01:47] <mdz> seb128: next
[01:47] <seb128> Done:
[01:47] <seb128> - GNOME 2.16.0
[01:47] <seb128> - bug triage
[01:47] <seb128> - desktop bugs fixing
[01:47] <seb128> - caught up with a part of my mails lag
[01:47] <seb128> - SoC review
[01:47] <seb128> - gnome-system-tools bounty discussions and patches review
[01:47] <seb128> To Do:
[01:47] <seb128> - bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
[01:47] <seb128> - bugs fixing too
[01:48] <mdz> is SoC all wrapped up now?
[01:48] <Kamion> the final reports are due tomorrow
[01:48] <Kamion> so yes
[01:48] <mdz> and after that we'll have met our obligations and have nothing more to do, right?
[01:48] <ogra_> my student cheated me and told me its wednesday :)
[01:48] <Kamion> right
[01:48] <doko> mdz: still have to cash in the money ...
[01:48] <seb128> just before the meeting
[01:49] <mdz> seb128: the g-s-t stuff is progressing, right?  not blocked on me anymore
[01:49] <seb128> mdz: yeah, a package with most of the patches has been uploaded yesterday
[01:49] <mdz> oh good. I'm a bit behind on -changes
[01:50] <ogra_> is it upstart friendly now ? 
[01:50] <seb128> ogra_: upstart makes no difference, does it?
[01:50] <mdz> seb128: how is the bug list?
[01:50] <seb128> ogra_: you still use update-rc.d no? 
[01:50] <doko> seb128: are you aware of the gnomeVFS ABI changes?
[01:50] <Keybuk> "friendly" ?
[01:50] <ogra_> seb128, i thought it broke your upstart
[01:51] <seb128> mdz: we still have difficulties to keep it at a correct level
[01:51] <mdz> it shouldn't need any changes for this phase of upstart deployment, as i understand it
[01:51] <pitti> doko: tell us you're joking?
[01:51] <seb128> mdz: my bug mails lag was ~270 on friday
[01:51] <seb128> it's ~370 now
[01:51] <Keybuk> ogra_: it wiped his /etc/rc?.d (except for the READMEs) -- nothing to do with upstart
[01:51] <mdz> seb128: who is working on desktop triage other than you and dholbach?
[01:51] <doko> pitti: no, that's probably the reason why the OOo file selector doesn't work and OOo terminates
[01:52] <seb128> mdz: some contributors
[01:52] <ogra_> Keybuk, ah
[01:52] <seb128> some of they triage a lot and do a good job
[01:52] <seb128> ("Vassilis Pandis" by example)
[01:52] <Fujitsu> doko, I noticed that yesterday :(
[01:52] <seb128> but still, lot of bugs coming :/
[01:53] <seb128> doko: the bonobo functions move?
[01:53] <mdz> mostly upstream?
[01:53] <seb128> mdz: yeah, we usually fix distro bugs fairly quickly (if they are an issue)
[01:53] <seb128> 95% of the bugs is upstream material
[01:53] <doko> seb128: yeah, maybe
[01:54] <seb128> doko: it's a discutable "ABI change" then ;)
[01:54] <mdz> seb128: are you and dholbach the only ones forwarding bugs upstream, or do others help as well?
[01:54] <seb128> doko: they moved some function from gnome-vfs to libbonobo which the linux linker handle fine
[01:54] <dholbach> mdz: some rare few are forwarded upstream by others
[01:55] <seb128> mdz: 2-3 contributors help on that too, but they don't do a lot of forwarding
[01:55] <doko> seb128: no, maybe the reason is dicutable, but not, that an existing application stops working; yeah, I know, our gnome law ...
[01:55] <dholbach> mdz: but we have a list of "bugs to be forwarded upstream" now and I advertised it in some places
[01:55] <mdz> we should encourage more folks to forward bugs upstream. is there a good howto?
[01:55] <mdz> dholbach: oh, good. using a tag or something?
[01:55] <dholbach> mdz: opening an empty upstream task is enough
[01:55] <dholbach> mdz: you can search for them
[01:55] <seb128> mdz: opening an upstream task not linked to any bug as discussed in wiesbaden
[01:55] <dholbach> mdz: for "you can get involved here" tasks we use 'ubuntulove' :-)
[01:55] <mdz> you can search for that now?
[01:56] <seb128> looks like ;)
[01:56] <mdz> oh, look at that. wonderful
[01:56] <mdz> we should advertise that more widely
[01:56] <mdz> need to move on though
[01:56] <mdz> thanks seb128
[01:56] <mdz> sfllaw: next
[01:56] <sfllaw> Done:
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Bug triage
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Looked into interns at Cgep John Abbott
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Various meetings
[01:56] <sfllaw> To do:
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Bug triage
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Prepare for UbuntuHugDay
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Work with seb128 and dholbach to get a desktop triaging team in place
[01:56] <sfllaw>  * Get in touch with LaptopTestingTeam for installer testing
[01:57] <mdz> sfllaw: let's make bug forwarding a highlight of this next bug day
[01:57] <sfllaw> Sounds like a good plan.
[01:57] <sfllaw> I'll construct some searches for that.
[01:57] <mdz> thanks
[01:57] <mdz> especially desktop team bugs
[01:57] <dholbach> i added them to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
[01:57] <mdz> that requires only registering in one upstream bug tracker to forward lots of bugs
[01:58] <sfllaw> Well, either GNOME or KDE.
[01:58] <mdz> right
[01:58] <sfllaw> Riddell: What are good search parameters for KDE bugs?
[01:58] <Riddell> sfllaw: how do you mean?
[01:58] <dholbach> kubuntu-team bugs
[01:58] <mdz> sfllaw: were you in the loop on the milestone testing in montreal? how did it go from your perspective?
[01:58] <sladen> pitti: single-page edit-describtion, edit-subject, click, go, Wizard for that in LP would be wonderful
[01:59] <Riddell> kubuntu-team is subscribed to the important stuff
[01:59] <sfllaw> mdz: With the certification lab?  No, I think I missed the memo.
[01:59] <sfllaw> mdz: I'll talk to them in person.
[01:59] <mdz> sladen: filing bugs is easy; it's establishing communication between upstream and the reporter which is hard
[01:59] <mdz> sfllaw: ok. the general plan is that they should test on the lab machines when we do a milestone
[01:59] <Hobbsee> Riddell: sometimes.  often not a lot.
[02:00] <sfllaw> mdz: If jbailey is cool with that, I'm happy.
[02:00] <mdz> for hardware issues specifically as well as the usual functional test
[02:00] <mdz> sfllaw: jbailey and I agreed on this in mallorca, it's a done deal
[02:00] <doko> sfllaw: please could you document the when-do-i-close/reject-a-bug-report?
[02:00] <mdz> we basically need to do it anyway to keep up certifications, and we can get a lot of general testing along the way for free
[02:01] <mdz> sfllaw: ok, thanks
[02:01] <mdz> zul: next?
[02:01] <zul> Done:
[02:01] <zul>    * kernel security patches
[02:01] <zul>    * kernel security testing
[02:01] <zul>    * kernel bug triaging
[02:01] <zul>    * new xen-tools fixing
[02:01] <zul>    * new xen snapshot
[02:02] <zul> To-Do:
[02:02] <zul>    xen-restricted moduels
[02:02] <zul>    more drivers for the xen kernel
[02:02] <zul>    xen rcs control
[02:02] <mdz> zul: is there a howto for how to try out xen?
[02:02] <zul>    xen bug fixing
[02:02] <zul> yes its on the wiki
[02:02] <Mithrandir> zul: do you want my x-r-m stuff or do you have something mostly-working already?
[02:02] <mdz> zul: I suggest highlighting it in this week's UWN to get people interested
[02:03] <zul> Mithrandir: can you send me your xrm stuff im trying to get the new snapshot working again
[02:03] <zul> mdz: sure
[02:03] <mdz> zul: cool, thanks
[02:03] <mdz> mvo: next
[02:03] <mvo> Did:
[02:03] <mvo> - Implemented CDRom support in dist-upgrader and put it onto the CD
[02:03] <mvo> - dist-upgrader testing
[02:03] <mvo> - update-manager improvments (better dist-upgrader integration, better cache representation)
[02:03] <mvo> - added printer-sharing to gnome-cups-manager
[02:03] <mvo> - implemented apt--install-recommends support for only certain sections (to implement meta-packages recommends support)
[02:03] <mvo> - added recommends-support to germinate 
[02:03] <mvo> - bug triage
[02:03] <mvo> - SoC mentoring (apt-sync)
[02:03] <mvo> - misc stuff (synaptic,gnome-app-install,dist-upgrader fixes, command-not-found)
[02:03] <mvo> Specs:
[02:03] <mvo> - cdrom-based-dist-upgrades (ready, needs testing)
[02:03] <mvo> - dependency-removal (aptitude needs performance tuning, otherwise ready; will display auto-remove list if non-empty and give hint to use apt-get autoremove)
[02:03] <mvo> - gai-popcon: implemented, we could do with more people using popocon
[02:03] <mvo> - recommends-support (ready, only turned by default for meta-packages now)
[02:03] <mvo> - apt-ddtp (ready, seb128 discovered it today. the rosetta<->souyz think it not automatic yet, but needs manual updating)
[02:03] <mvo> - command-not-found-magic (in the archive)
[02:03] <mvo> - simple-popcon-participation (done)
[02:03] <mvo> Will do:
[02:03] <mvo> - bugs
[02:03] <mvo> - test the auto-dist-upgrade testing going on a official machine
[02:03] <iwj> mvo: is g-a-i fixed now ? :-)
[02:04] <mvo> iwj: *shhhhsss*
[02:04] <mdz> mvo: most of your stuff is in a state of landed-but-needs-testing...I suggest the same as for zul; get the word out about these features and encourage folks to test
[02:04] <mdz> UWN, -devel-announce, as appropriate
[02:04] <mdz> there's some cool stuff in there
[02:05] <mvo> I will do that
[02:05] <mdz> thanks mvo
[02:05] <Kamion> I should do that with s-i-k too
[02:05] <mdz> iwj: next
[02:05] <mdz> Kamion: indeed
[02:05] <mdz> there's no rule that we can't have more than one feature of the week in UWN ;-)
[02:05] <iwj> week after the sprint: was on holiday
[02:05] <iwj> package-dependency-field-breaks: Changes to apt and aptitude now properly done: apt changes to support Break fully (from wiesbaden, now tested, working) and aptitude changes to treat it like Conflicts.  List of packages constructed for deployment for edgy upgrades - about a dozen in required and standard are my first ones to look at.
[02:05] <iwj> suggest-packages-for-filetypes: Completed during the sprint (thanks to mvo for some optimisations to improve gnome-app-install's speed too) but unfortunately broken since.  mvo has the token atm for gnome-app-install atm AIUI, which is the last thing still to be put back to working.
[02:05] <iwj> automated-testing-deployment: No change since last report.
[02:05] <iwj> next week: firefox beta 2 (joy) (needs uvf exception, obviously); taking a look at the bug lists; trying out Breaks (let's try again) in a package or two, to check all is well before doing it a bit more widely; etc.
[02:05] <iwj> if I'm really lucky: automated-testing: packaging the xen setup scripts into autopkgtest
[02:06] <mdz> iwj: the last apt upload I saw said that the breaks changes were untested; is that no longer true?
[02:06] <iwj> There's nothing in the archive that uses the breaks changes but I have tested them locally and they DTRT.
[02:06] <mvo> iwj: sorry for the breakage, I will fix that tomorrow
[02:06] <iwj> mvo: NP :-)
[02:07] <mdz> ok, please land at least one Breaks this week (leaving time to see the effects before you go for the weekend) to start exercising it
[02:07] <iwj> mdz: Right, willdo.
[02:07] <mdz> iwj: is there still hope of seeing a final firefox for edgy?
[02:07] <iwj> mdz: I haven't been following ff upstream.
[02:08] <iwj> So I don't know.
[02:08] <mdz> the last I heard from them they hoped to land it before our final date, but it sounded awfully close
[02:08] <iwj> Heh heh.
[02:08] <Kamion> iwj: feels to me like we should avoid Breaks in required and important for now, since that could be in dpkg/apt's dependency chain
[02:08] <iwj> I think we'll just have to go with whatever beta is available, really.
[02:08] <dholbach> there was a new version to experimental, no?
[02:08] <Kamion> at least, extreme care would be called for there
[02:08] <iwj> Kamion: That shouldn't be a problem, really.  Talk about it tomorrow morning ?
[02:08] <Kamion> iwj: sure
[02:08] <Kamion> when we're both more awake
[02:08] <iwj> Quite.
[02:08] <mdz> ok
[02:09] <mdz> iwj: so -breaks can go to beta status once it's being exercised in the archive, and you'll be ok for FF
[02:09] <iwj> Right.
[02:09] <iwj> I'll try to get a Breaks or two out by lunchtime tomorrow.
[02:09] <mdz> great, thanks
[02:09] <mdz> doko: next
[02:09] <iwj> 01:09 <iwj> I'll try to get a Breaks or two out by lunchtime tomorrow.
[02:09] <iwj> 01:09 <mdz> great, thanks
[02:09] <iwj> Err, sorry :-).
[02:09] <doko> - this week
[02:09] <doko>   - edgy-toolchain: address libstdc++ ABI issues on powerpc and sparc; mcpp
[02:09] <doko>     update
[02:09] <doko>   - java-roadmap: provide a 32bit java runtime on amd64
[02:09] <doko>   - openoffice.org - OOo 2.0.4 rc1 packages, ia32-libs updates,
[02:10] <doko>     -l10n and -amd64 updates for dapper-proposed, test builds on all
[02:10] <doko>     release architectures, testing on i386 and powerpc, work around
[02:10] <doko>     sparc problems with smp kernels.
[02:10] <doko>     build problems: OOo currently only builds on the machines in the
[02:10] <doko>     datacenter, not on fresh edgy installs. same problem we had in
[02:10] <doko>     dapper at the end.
[02:10] <doko>   - python2.5 added as a supported python version. python2.5 related
[02:10] <doko>     rebuilds scheduled for tonight.
[02:10] <doko>   - other: some toolchain related phone calls, SoC nagging, machine upgrade
[02:10] <doko> - this week / next week:
[02:10] <doko>   - OOo tests, bug triage
[02:10] <doko>   - python cleanup
[02:10] <doko>   - OOoCon
[02:10] <doko> - edgy+1: write a checker/generator for "Replaces" fields ...
[02:10] <iwj> doko: Replaces> eh ?
[02:10] <mdz> doko: are your statuses in LP up to date?
[02:11] <doko> iwj: I'm tired to find out file moves between binaries built from the same source by hand
[02:11] <mdz> none of your specs are past 'good progress' yet
[02:11] <mvo> doko: what about the upgrade problem from dapper->edgy when python2.3 breaks? I have seen a few duplicates of this
[02:11] <doko> mdz: will update them tonight.
[02:11] <iwj> doko: Ah.
[02:11] <iwj> Count me interested ...
[02:11] <mdz> doko: is edgy-toolchain-roadmap complete for feature freeze?
[02:11] <Seveas> mvo, 'a few'... closer to 'a few dozen'
[02:12] <mdz> and python-roadmap?
[02:12] <mvo> Seveas: :)
[02:12] <doko> yes, it was complete last week (if you count the ABI problem as a bug report)
[02:12] <mdz> doko: please send me a mail when they are up to date so that we can discuss, and remember to update before meetings
[02:12] <doko> mdz: ok
[02:12] <mdz> thanks
[02:13] <mdz> did I miss anyone?
[02:13] <Keybuk> me
[02:13] <mdz> Keybuk: you're up
[02:13] <Keybuk> New Note 11
[02:13] <Keybuk> Done:
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * On Leave
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Upstart into main and ubuntu-minimal
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Transition requires a double dist-upgrade run, or use of the update tool (can't be helped due to dpkg/apt "features")
[02:13] <Keybuk> To do:
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Start on some bug fixes
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Finish off upstart article for Linux.com
[02:13] <Keybuk> BootMessageLogging: 
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * I think we were on crack when we wrote this spec, it turned into something of a christmas tree
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Assuming it's ok to simplify it to just "boot messages are logged to a file, and not displayed if 'quiet' on the kernel command-line" then it can be marked as implemented with my next upstart upload and we can focus on the other things later
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Given the above, checkroot, checkfs and cryptdisks need special treatment -- but they'll need that for the new usplash too anyway
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Otherwise I'm deferring it and leaving messages on the console (new usplash hides them on tty8 anyway)
[02:13] <Keybuk> DashAsBinSh:
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Implemented early in the cycle
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Opted not to change /bin/sh from a diverted symlink as the code that's there works with lots of different shells and actually works, no matter how unaesthetic
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * A few, but no major, shell issues have been reported and dealt with.  I'm not aware of any outstanding ones.
[02:13] <Keybuk> ReplacementInit:
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Really happy with how well this has gone, has been installed by default for a few days and still only getting trivial bugs
[02:13] <Keybuk>  * Deferred changes to initscripts to edgy+1 due to problems with LVM, etc. uncovered during testing; would rather attack these on a fresh release than break edgy at this point
[02:13] <mdz> Keybuk: I didn't notice upgrade weirdness with upstart, though I had some issues with oo.o which may have masked it
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Have an active community for upstart already
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Already speccing out edgy+1 things that will probably be implemented "upstream" as we go anyway
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * General query ... given that development will be continuing (e.g. changes to events and job states coming rsn) should I maintain this in edgy post-FF or only upload bug fixes and instead have a separate archive?
[02:14] <Keybuk> Teardown:
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Implemented early in the cycle
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * A few things have crept back in, will treat those as bugs
[02:14] <Keybuk> AutomakeTransition:
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * deferred until edgy+1
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Debian will probably do most of this for us
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * automake 1.9 is the highest priority alternative in edgy
[02:14] <Keybuk> LibAtaForAtaDisks
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Not strictly my spec, but I helped with it
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * The kernel-side was deferred in favour of waiting for upstream to shake out the bugs now the patches are landing in 2.6.19
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * The UUID stuff went in though, we have working mount-by-uuid, swap-by-uuid and resume-by-uuid
[02:14] <Keybuk>  * Unless you use any filesystem fabbione cares about, of course, but he can fix those problems :p
[02:14] <Keybuk> -- 
[02:14] <Keybuk> oops, that was a little more verbose than I intended :p  it looked smaller on the note
[02:14] <Keybuk> mdz: basically dpkg/apt/synaptic will refuse to upgrade ubuntu-minimal on the first try, because it'd remove an essential package (sysvinit)
[02:14] <Keybuk> but on the second try, sysvinit got upgraded to non-essential, so then it updates ubuntu-minimal, removes sysvinit and installs upstart
[02:14] <Keybuk> the update tool special-cases this
[02:14] <mdz> Keybuk: the important bit of boot-message-logging was capturing console output
[02:15] <Keybuk> and everyone who does it by hand is pretty used to looping several times anyway
[02:15] <mvo> Keybuk: I teached the upgrader about it already
[02:15] <mdz> Keybuk: will tomorrow's upstart handle that part?
[02:15] <Keybuk> mdz: indeed, it will.  console output will be sent to /var/log/boot
[02:15] <Kamion> Keybuk: oh, err, we never did do yaboot, unless Ben did it
[02:16] <Kamion> IIRC he took the token from me with my wholehearted blessing
[02:16] <Kamion> for libata-for-ata-disks
[02:16] <mdz> Keybuk: ok then, I'd be happy with that.  iirc I raised some questions about the feeping creaturism in that spec at the summit ;-)
[02:16] <Keybuk> mdz: ok, that'll go in today
[02:17] <mdz> Keybuk: regarding ongoing development of upstart, it depends on what you plan to do.  intrusive stuff shouldn't go into edgy at this point
[02:17] <Keybuk> defining intrusive is tricky ;p
[02:18] <mdz> but simple and safe is ok for the sake of minimizing branchiness and keeping momentum
[02:18] <mdz> Keybuk: having a diversion responsible for handling my /bin/sh gives me the creeps
[02:18] <Keybuk> of course, the only things using upstart in edgy are the upstart package itself
[02:18] <Keybuk> mdz: I know ... but that diversion code works, and works for a whole number of different shells
[02:19] <mdz> Keybuk: the impact of bugs can be...er...severe :-)
[02:19] <iwj> Hit ^C at the wrong moment and *crunch*
[02:19] <iwj> IMO it's a serious bug for one of the essential bits of an essential package to be diverted.
[02:19] <mdz> Keybuk: let's play it by ear; let's talk about the specific changes you want ot land as they come along
[02:20] <Keybuk> we never actually made dash essential
[02:20] <iwj> Unless you take huge especial care of carefulness.
[02:20] <Kamion> Keybuk: bash is essential and /bin/sh is its essential bit
[02:20] <iwj> bash is essential and /bin/sh is its most essential bit.
[02:20] <Keybuk> mdz: *nods* my gut feeling is that I should branch it at the stable point for FF, and then be conversative on the edgy branch
[02:20] <Kamion> wow, snap
[02:20] <mdz> Kamion,iwj: ...
[02:20] <Keybuk> right
[02:20] <Keybuk> that's the reason we didn't make dash essential <g>  there was no need
[02:21] <mdz> ok, on that note
[02:21] <mdz> any other business?
[02:21] <Mithrandir> I'd like to go to sleep. :-P
[02:21] <iwj> I would delete Keybuk's /bin/sh but I need some sleep first :-).
[02:21] <mdz> oh, one quick note: we now have a 'Not Started' state in the spec tracker.  use it.
[02:22] <mdz> no spec should be in 'Unknown' state anymore unless we're truly unsure about where it stands, which will be an unusual case
[02:22] <Kamion> will specs start out at that rather than Unknown in the future?
[02:22] <mdz> unclear; I think Unknown might make sense as an initial state because sometimes specs postdate the start of work
[02:22] <Kamion> mdz: one of the five Edgy specs in Unknown is yours :-)
[02:23] <mdz> Kamion: I'll be fixing that shortly
[02:23] <Keybuk> d'oh
[02:23] <mdz> ok, good night folks
[02:23] <Kamion> oh, which reminds me, we never turned on universe and multiverse by default for edgy
[02:23] <Kamion> -> #ubuntu-devel, I won't hold up people's sleep for this
[02:23] <dholbach> good night folks
[02:23] <mdz> agreed
[02:23] <iwj> Goodnight ...
[02:23] <mdz> adjourned
[02:23] <fschoep> good night everyone
[02:24] <pitti> good night everyone *yawn*
[02:24] <mvo> good night everyone
[02:26] <kwwii> night
[02:28] <Hobbsee> jono: you still around?
[02:29] <jono> Hobbsee, yep for a few mins
[02:29] <jono> :)