[12:07] <pygi> I want someone familiar with autotools to gimme a hand :) anyone raises hand?
[12:07] <mjg59> Trying to set the ondemand governor will fail
[12:07] <mjg59> So powernowd will start instead
[12:07] <mdz> oh, I missed your powernowd upload
[12:08] <mdz> I had partially implemented the same thing locally
[12:08] <mdz> but was unable to test it
[12:08] <mjg59> Ditto, but I'm pretty happy about how the code works
[12:08] <mdz> thanks for doing that
[12:08] <mjg59> You get EINVAL back if you try to set ondemand and it doesn't like the system
[12:08] <tseng> is the init scripts status not being printed to be blamed on usplash or upstart?
[12:09] <mjg59> tseng: usplash will now not print anything unless you remove the quiet argument
[12:09] <mjg59> Which is consistent with the upstart behaviour
[12:09] <tseng> mjg59: ah, cool
[12:09] <tseng> was out of town all week, I seem to have missed all the fun
[12:10] <mjg59> So, other than a couple of regressions in suspend, I'm pretty happy with how edgy looks for laptops
[12:10] <tseng> mjg59: regressions related to screen blanking, perhaps?
[12:10] <tseng> mine are back, need to work on it this weekend
[12:11] <mjg59> tseng: Yeah, possibly
[12:14] <cbx33> right I'm off to sleep so I can start artworking early tomorrow....ogra if you have any comments on that manga piece, we were planning to use that for youg persons theme.....please email to either me or lisa......;)
[12:14] <ogra> cbx33, ok
[12:15] <cbx33> as I know you had a few issues with it...
[12:15] <cbx33> some suggestions on changes would be great
[12:15] <Burgwork> mjg59, do you ever feel like your fighting a contant uphill battle?
[12:15] <mjg59> Burgwork: Nah
[12:16] <mjg59> Though tracing suspend regressions in the kernel is a bit of a pain
[12:16] <mjg59> Other than that, I think we're heading forwards pretty quickly
[12:23] <Keybuk> mdz: none of the above, afaik
[12:25] <mdz> Keybuk: correct, it was a combination of my broken system, a usplash bug and an initscripts bug
[12:26] <mdz> all three are fixed now
[12:26] <mdz> it still flickers but basically works
[12:28] <desrt> doko_; messed up, eh?
[12:28] <desrt> mxpxpod; pong
[12:30] <doko_> desrt: there's no room for schadenfreude. if you know the reason, please tell it. kthxbye
[12:30] <desrt> schadenfreude -> ?
[12:32] <Spads> desrt: "shamefun", or taking joy in the suffering of others
[12:32] <shackan> desrt, it's german for "being happy about other people's suffering" (roughly)
[12:32] <Spads> desrt: slapstick humor is "shadenfreude"
[12:33] <desrt> doko; i'm not happy that your build is broken :p
[12:33] <Spads> (as an example)
[12:48] <mjg59> Why is nothing ever easy?
[12:54] <desrt> mjg59; damned if i know
[01:14] <hikenboot> hello all anyone know what this means---when copying between two hardrives with konqueror ---ERROR: SlavePool: No communication with slave.
[01:33] <ogra> Seveas, i made an edubuntu version based on the kubuntu usplash theme, i thought we dont need indexed images with the new version ?
[01:33] <Seveas> we do
[01:33] <Seveas> but 256 colors instead of 16
[01:34] <ogra> ah
[01:34] <Seveas> and all images have to use the exact same palette
[01:34] <Seveas> (which is not too difficult to accomplish with the gimp)
[01:36] <desrt> wow.  mjg59 is famous
[01:36] <desrt> he has a wikilinked mention in the Debian page on wikipedia
[01:36] <desrt> (but no page yet)
[01:36] <mjg59> Haha
[01:37] <mjg59> Write me one
[01:37] <desrt> "mjg is really cool and probably made your laptop work."
[01:37] <desrt> i think i might get NPOV'd :p
[01:42] <Fujitsu> Should the free ATI driver have hardware 3D support?
[01:44] <tseng> Fujitsu: not really
[01:44] <tseng> its pretty poor
[01:45] <Fujitsu> Because evolver crashes with the free driver, as in bug #45190.
[01:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45190 in evolver "Graphic display error when running evolver" [Medium,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/45190
[01:45] <Fujitsu> What should be done with that?
[01:48] <mjg59> Fix the r300 driver
[01:56] <Fujitsu> mjg59, that would be the ideal solution... But what should I do with the bug?
[02:00] <mjg59> Fujitsu: See if it's fixed in edgy. If not, it needs to go upstream
[02:01] <Fujitsu> Isn't it more of a bug in the driver, though?
[02:01] <Fujitsu> As it works fine with fglrx.
[02:02] <mjg59> ...
[02:02] <mjg59> Erm
[02:02] <mjg59> Yes, it's a driver bug
[02:03] <mjg59> See if it's fixed in edgy. If not, it needs to go upstream.
[02:03] <Fujitsu> Oh, you mean driver upstream?
[02:03] <Fujitsu> Oops.
[02:03] <Fujitsu> OK.
[02:03] <mjg59> Yes, sorry
[03:00] <Keybuk> hmm
[03:00] <Keybuk> why have my consoles lost their colour?
[03:01] <Keybuk> Sep  9 01:55:32 rc2: setupcon: not found
[03:13] <Keybuk> hmm, and usplash keeps hanging on shutdown
[03:23] <bddebian> Heya
[05:26] <adamant1988> hello all
[06:04] <mjg59> Nngh.
[06:04] <mjg59> It's /something/ to do with the APIC, as far as I can tell.
[06:06] <Amaranth> mjg59: What is?
[06:09] <mjg59> The failure of this machine to suspend/resume
[06:10] <mjg59> If I disable apic support, it seems happier to work
[06:10] <mjg59> But:
[06:10] <Amaranth> oh
[06:10] <mjg59> It worked fine with apic support in our 2.6.15 kernel
[06:10] <Amaranth> that's always fun
[06:10] <mjg59> Need to try upstream 2.6.15
[06:11] <Amaranth> see if it's something you added to 2.6.15 or something you took away from 2.6.17?
[06:15] <mjg59> Yeah
[06:37] <Hobbsee> Kamion: yes krename sync is fine.  trust me w.r.t dh_iconcache only changes - i did most of them.
[06:38] <Hobbsee> Kamion: we only figured out that we could stick them into cdbs *after* we'd done a lot of them.
[06:38] <Hobbsee> grumble :P
[06:39] <Hobbsee> well, a whole heap of the universe ones anyway
[08:38] <Mez> any devs around want to push a patch to main for me?
[08:38] <Mez> tiny patch - just to fix bug 52690
[08:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 52690 in xchat "Please use irc.ubuntu.com alias for default IRC server" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/52690
[12:37] <cbx33> if I have Edubuntu meta installed but I want to check out the ubuntu usplash - how can I do it?
[12:39] <StevenK> cbx33: Remove edubuntu-artwork-usplash and reinstall usplash?
[12:40] <cbx33> ah cool ye forgot about that
[12:40] <StevenK> cbx33: However, other things might want edubuntu-artwork-usplash around.
[12:48] <jdub> particularly for the gdm theme :|
[12:48] <tseng> jdub: thanks
[12:48] <tseng> jdub: I don't have the patience, myself
[12:50] <tseng> jdub: for a good time, call https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/f-spot/+bug/34074
[12:50] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 34074 in f-spot "Dapper becomes unstable when disk full after f-spot import" [Medium,Confirmed]  
[12:50] <jdub> ha ha
[12:51] <jdub> so i've done the libesd.so.1 thing
[12:51] <jdub> no dice
[12:51] <tseng> i turn off esd
[12:51] <tseng> close all sound apps
[12:52] <tseng> start firefox with oss
[12:52] <tseng> if the stars are aligned, that usually works
[12:52] <jdub> 'with oss'?
[12:52] <tseng> out of the box
[12:52] <tseng> never did any tricks
[12:52] <jdub> mine is spawning esd
[12:53] <tseng> seems i have esd running again as well
[12:53] <tseng> cute
[12:53] <tseng> its nice that gstreamer can just sort it out now, at least
[12:53] <jdub> hrm, i have to convince alsa to use the other device
[12:53] <jdub> maybe that's what's confusing it
[01:37] <tseng> jdub: btw just ordered an all-intel d620
[01:38] <tseng> jdub: core2 for freedom lovers
[01:52] <Treenaks> I just killed an out-of-control apport (yay crashing firefox..)
[01:52] <Treenaks> but I got an _ugly_ OOPS from the kernel..
[01:56] <Fujitsu> That seems to happen, Treenaks.
[01:57] <Treenaks> Fujitsu: scary..
[02:00] <giftnudel> Treenaks: apport was not ooc, it just takes forever
[02:01] <giftnudel> Treenaks: or at least that happened to me
[02:01] <Treenaks> giftnudel: still, I had to kill it
[02:01] <giftnudel> Treenaks: why? I mean, how could you tell?
[02:02] <Treenaks> giftnudel: because it was eating all my swap, and my laptop wasn't responding to anything else
[02:03] <giftnudel> Treenaks: at least the second part I can remember, the first not ;), but it really seemed to me "more" ooc ;)
[02:18] <Hobbsee> hey Keybuk 
[02:19] <Keybuk> hey
[02:22] <Fujitsu> Good evening, Keybuk.
[02:23] <Keybuk> afternoon
[02:29] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh yes, i remember what i was going to bug you about.
[02:29] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: are the fixing kde's shutdown button to actually work on your plans at all?
[02:29] <Hobbsee> looks like that entire dialog is now disabled
[02:30] <Hobbsee> i would expect, due to upstart
[02:34] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: it should be fixed
[02:34] <Keybuk> I've got nothing to do with dialogs being disabled or anything
[02:34] <Keybuk> I have an allergy to C++, so wouldn't have touched that
[02:34] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: right, i'll see what's happened elsewhere then.
[02:34] <Hobbsee> heh, right
[02:35] <StevenK> Keybuk: You break out in hives?
[02:35] <Keybuk> StevenK: yeah, get a template of a rash
[02:35] <StevenK> Boo hiss!
[03:12] <seb128> does anybody knows if /etc/network/interfaces has to be ISO-8859-1 encoded and if essid can be can contain a non-ascii utf-8 encoded char?
[03:14] <Treenaks> seb128: I remember seeing a bug about that by Mithrandir
[03:14] <cbx33> thanks for the uopload seb128
[03:14] <Treenaks> seb128: so I'd ask him :)
[03:14] <seb128> cbx33: np
[03:15] <seb128> Treenaks: thanks for the pointed, remember on what package and if that was Debian,Ubuntu,other?
[03:15] <Treenaks> seb128: I think it was either the Gnome network config tool (gnome-system-tools?) or wireless-tools
[03:16] <seb128> Treenaks: I'm looking at bug #27171 in fact
[03:16] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 27171 in system-tools-backends "[network-admin]  non-ASCII WLAN SSID breaks network-admin" [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/27171
[03:16] <Treenaks> yes
[03:17] <Treenaks> but that's not Mithrandir's bug :)
[03:17] <tormod> yes I filed that one :)
[03:17] <seb128> tormod: from where did you get it has to be ISO-8859-1 encoded?
[03:18] <tormod> seb128, trial and error I guess
[03:18] <seb128> tormod: that doesn't mean it has to be
[03:18] <seb128> tormod: either a policy or reference says it has, or the apps should handled it being utf-8 just fine
[03:19] <tormod> seb128, how would the app know it is utf-8?
[03:19] <seb128> tormod: how would it know it's iso-8859-15 :)
[03:20] <tormod> seb128, :) Is there no standard for non-ascii in gnome?
[03:21] <seb128> utf-8 is the standard
[03:21] <seb128> not only for GNOME
[03:21] <tseng> seb128: (are we going to really leave apport on for release?)
[03:21] <tseng> seb128: (this is very painful)
[03:21] <seb128> we switched to utf-8 by default for hoary
[03:21] <seb128> tseng: stop complaining, thank you :p
[03:21] <tseng> :(
[03:21] <tseng> i have been trying to kill banshee for 20 minutes, literally
[03:21] <tseng> I cant
[03:21] <seb128> tseng: when a software has bugs they got fixed instead of removing the software
[03:22] <seb128> I think pitti is doing a decent job on apport
[03:22] <seb128> your request is not fair to him
[03:22] <seb128> let him know your issues and give him a chance to fix them
[03:22] <leolein> Hello, Is there any people who speak german?
[03:23] <tormod> leolein, ubuntu-de
[03:23] <tseng> seb128: i didnt request anything, its just a very large overhead added, atm I cant seem to even kill it at all. I will wait for pitti
[03:24] <tormod> seb128, then the problem is that iwlist returns iso-8859-1 instead of utf-8
[03:24] <seb128> the only complain I've about apport it's the few seconds of slowdown when it creates the dump
[03:24] <tseng> this is not a few seconds at all
[03:24] <seb128> tormod: I would think that too
[03:24] <seb128> tseng: depending of the box and the software probably
[03:25] <tseng> killing apport can also make your kernel panic
[03:25] <tseng> this is an extreme case, but its been 20 minutes
[03:25] <tseng> I can't kill the app
[03:25] <seb128> weird
[03:25] <jdong> tseng: I feel your pain... apport usually locks up my mouse for a few seconds when it makes its report
[03:26] <tseng> the few seconds is kind of annoying, but not the kind of thing I would complain about
[03:26] <leolein> tormod: I know. But I have a question to anyone who build pakets for ubuntu. Exemple, if there is someone who build pakets from the Gimp 2.3 Releases.
[03:26] <seb128> leolein: not at the moment, we are going to use 2.2.n for edgy
[03:27] <leolein> okay. Thank you
[03:28] <seb128> np
[03:38] <tormod> seb128, in the end what counts: the user types the same character in his wifi router configuration (through a web browser most of the time) and in network-admin. There is a long chain between... iso-8859-1 in the interfaces file works.
[03:39] <seb128> tormod: right, and my understanding is that the network stack should deal with it being ut-8
[03:39] <seb128> utf-8
[03:42] <tormod> seb128, should ifupdown translate it? Otherwise both wireless-tool and linux-wlan-ng (possibly others too) have to be fixed separately.
[03:42] <seb128> no idea, I'll talk with Mithrandir about it monday
[03:48] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: what information do you need for a "usplash doesn't come up" bugreport?
[03:49] <mjg59> Version of usplash, version of kernel, full hardware information
[03:49] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: dmesg / lspci? 
[03:50] <mjg59> Yeah
[03:50] <HiddenWolf> coming right up
[03:50] <seb128> mjg59: I've reinstalled my edgy, usplash works fine now on my desktop, was probably something broken after the /etc/rc[0-6] .d by services-admin
[03:50] <Treenaks> mjg59: on a bug report?
[03:51] <Treenaks> mjg59: (if yes, a specific one? which one?)
[03:51] <HiddenWolf> seb128: I seem to have the same issue, usplash stopped working since dist-upgrade, works on live-cd
[03:51] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: ^^
[03:52] <mjg59> Treenaks: ?
[03:52] <mjg59> Oh, right
[03:52] <mjg59> No, please file new bugs
[03:52] <Treenaks> mjg59: ok
[03:52] <mjg59> If it works on the live-cd, then it's probably a transient issue of some sort
[03:53] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: I'll file a bug and mention that, ok?
[03:53] <mjg59> Yeah
[03:54] <seb128> mjg59: is the rectangle supposed to fit the screen BTW? If yes, are you interested by bugs about it takjng only like half of it?
[03:54] <mjg59> Which rectangle?
[03:56] <seb128> mjg59: the test image, that's a rectangle with all sort of drawing
[03:56] <mjg59> No, that's expected
[03:57] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/59651
[03:57] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 59651 in usplash "usplash does not come up after dapper-edgy upgrade" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[03:57] <seb128> ok
[04:06] <_ion> http://www.nasa.gov/55644main_NASATV_Windows.asx Atlantiksen laukaisu kai reilun tunnin pst.
[04:06] <_ion> Sorry, wrong channel.
[04:06] <Treenaks> _ion: already watching :)
[04:06] <Treenaks> (Atlantis tuning pasta?!)
[04:07] <HiddenWolf> seb128: sorry to bug you again, but do you know if upstream epiphany changed the behavior of the adress bar? prevously (dapper) you could type in the adress bar to search google, now I get "server-refused-connections"
[04:07] <seb128> it's due firefox 2.0
[04:07] <HiddenWolf> ack.
[04:08] <HiddenWolf> firefox killed epi's best feature.. :/
[04:09] <HiddenWolf> someone hide all blunt objects, please
[04:09] <_ion> Searching from the URL bar works without a hitch for me.
[04:10] <HiddenWolf> _ion: on edgy?
[04:10] <HiddenWolf> _ion: it triest to resolve everything to a .com for me.
[04:10] <HiddenWolf> tries*
[04:11] <_ion> hiddenwolf: Do you mean the "I'm feeling lucky" search? Type "? search-query" to the location field.
[04:12] <seb128> HiddenWolf: what do you call "gnome-keyring from the menu"?
[04:12] <HiddenWolf> seb128: system > administration > keying manager
[04:12] <seb128> HiddenWolf: does it ask for a password?
[04:12] <seb128> it does here
[04:12] <seb128> doesn't
[04:13] <HiddenWolf> it does, if you haven't provided that password earlier in the session
[04:13] <HiddenWolf> IE, if you haven't emailed using evo
[04:13] <seb128> why should it close if you refuse it the access to the keyring?
[04:13] <seb128> evo doesn't close if you refuse it access to the keyring
[04:13] <seb128> neither do nautilus
[04:13] <HiddenWolf> no.
[04:14] <HiddenWolf> but if you cancel gksudo it goes away, and doesn't leave a non-functional program on your screen. if you cancel the password prompt for gnome-keying, you are left with an empty window on your desktop
[04:15] <Treenaks> seb128: nautilus just keeps asking lots of times if you refuse access
[04:15] <Treenaks> or it did, last time I refused
[04:15] <seb128> HiddenWolf: the point is that we are not using gksudo there
[04:15] <seb128> HiddenWolf: and it does that because you can't use the admin tools without sudo
[04:15] <HiddenWolf> I know, but the behavior is inconsistent with other programs from the menu
[04:16] <seb128> HiddenWolf: you can use that program without keyring
[04:16] <HiddenWolf> seb128: i'm not talking about using evo without keying
[04:16] <seb128> it's consistant with how the program work
[04:16] <HiddenWolf> i'm talking about launching keyring and not tying the password
[04:16] <HiddenWolf> that leaves a greyed-out keying on the desktop
[04:16] <seb128> and?
[04:16] <seb128> why should it close?
[04:16] <seb128> it's usuable without it
[04:17] <HiddenWolf> it's odd and inconsistent.
[04:17] <seb128> would you reply to my question?
[04:17] <seb128> why should we close a program than can work?
[04:17] <seb128> just to be consistant with admin programs that can't work without sudo?
[04:17] <seb128> that doesn't seem to be a solid argument to me
[04:18] <seb128> and the keyring password dialog doesn't look like a gksu screenfading one
[04:18] <seb128> so it's not that inconsistant
[04:19] <HiddenWolf> seb128: ah, i see, there is some stuff that you can do, but there is no option to open the keying still, which is odd. An empty window is odd too.
[04:19] <HiddenWolf> seb128: it just confused the hell out of me.
[04:20] <seb128> k
[04:20] <seb128> I'm closing the bug, that's not one ;)
[04:20] <HiddenWolf> fine. I'll file some upstream about oddness later on.
[04:20] <HiddenWolf> I do feel that deny should be cancel tho, in the other bug.
[04:21] <seb128> right
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> It's cancel everywhere else.
[04:21] <seb128> though "deny" makes sense
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> it's inconsistent.
[04:21] <seb128> the GNOME HIG recommends to set explicit actions on buttons when possible
[04:21] <seb128> like no OK, Cancel for everything
[04:22] <seb128> "Deny" make sense in that context
[04:22] <Treenaks> so the other buttons are strange?
[04:22] <seb128> which one?
[04:22] <Treenaks> 16:21 <  HiddenWolf> It's cancel everywhere else.
[04:22] <HiddenWolf> Arguably, but cancel makes sense too, since you're cancelling your action, changing your mind.
[04:22] <seb128> you didn't do an action
[04:22] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: yes, but that's not really what you're doing.. you're denying.. it's more specific
[04:22] <seb128> you start an app
[04:22] <HiddenWolf> you're not thinking "hey, i don't need to type my password, so lets deny that request, and go make a new keyring"
[04:23] <seb128> the action is starting the app
[04:23] <seb128> then the app ask for permission granting
[04:23] <seb128> you accept or deny that request
[04:23] <seb128> you don't cancel your action of start the app
[04:23] <seb128> where for gksu you cancel your action
[04:23] <seb128> it makes sense to me and seems to be coherent
[04:24] <HiddenWolf> I disagree, but it's your call
[04:25] <seb128> I've a rationnal
[04:25] <seb128> you are not going to convince anybody by disagreeing without argumenting
[04:25] <seb128> that would be rather upstream talk ;)
[04:25] <HiddenWolf> I don't see how I can, and I seem to disagree with the entire design of the app that I've seen so far. so I'll bug @gnome.org
[04:26] <seb128> ok, thank you
[04:31] <HiddenWolf> Well, at least my other 2 bugs today are valid. :)
[04:33] <seb128> enough work for today, bbl
[04:45] <pef> hello
[05:20] <Chipzz> ugh
[05:21] <Chipzz> if I'm allowed to say so: the new gnome-session splash looks HORRIBLE
[05:22] <Chipzz> and some people do have other backgrounds than the standard brown, so it is *NOT* ok to have semi-anti-aliassed corners half part of the splash
[05:23] <HiddenWolf> Chipzz: I guess #u-artwork would be more appropriate
[05:24] <Chipzz> yea prolly
[05:24] <Chipzz> just ranting :P

[05:25] <Chipzz> on an unrelated note, grub doesn't show the menu anymore for some reason
[05:25] <Chipzz> (when pressing escape)
[05:28] <bddebian> Heya folks
[08:34] <bluefoxicy> oooh
[08:35] <bluefoxicy> gotta love the APSL section 12 subsection 1 clause C :)
[08:35] <bluefoxicy> 12.1 Termination. This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate:
[08:35] <bluefoxicy> "(c) automatically without notice from Apple if You, at any time during the term of this License, commence an action for patent infringement against Apple; provided that Apple did not first commence an action for patent infringement against You in that instance."
[08:36] <bluefoxicy> i.e. if you sue them over patents in the code and they're not already suing you over patents in something, you can't use the code anymore :D
[08:37] <bluefoxicy> which is rather benevolent if you think about it; they're covering their ass saying you can't sue them, but they're leaving themselves open in the case where they're the aggressor, creating the good faith that they won't initiate such hostilities.
[08:38] <bluefoxicy> (oh, and yeah, there's a clause in the beginning that says any patent or intellectual property held by any contributor including Apple placed into the code is granted for global use to everyone under all cases with no restrictions)
[08:43] <Kamion_> bluefoxicy: it might look fluffy, but it's nasty. If they infringe a legitimate non-software patent of yours - any patent - then you can't sue them without losing the right to distribute all APSL-licensed software
[08:44] <Kamion_> don't be deceived into thinking it's benevolent; there are much better-written patent termination clauses in other licences that only activate if you sue over a patent covering that particular code
[08:44] <bluefoxicy> Kamion_:  Mm.  Interesting.  You're correct of course.
[08:44] <bluefoxicy> I had misread that clause based on their definition of intellectual property
[08:45] <bluefoxicy> It's indeed a global statement.  How vicious.
[08:45] <bluefoxicy> Kamion_: Oh well, I'm designing something much better over this morning's coffee anyway, as great as Apple's allocator is.
[08:48] <bluefoxicy> http://steel-malloc.sourceforge.net/web/index.php?page=links
[08:59] <sbalneav> Hmm, something must have changed for xkeyboard-config.  It depends upon xkb-data, but it's not included in one of the meta packages (ubuntu-minimal, I think), and therefore breaks the ltsp-build-client script badly.  Is ogra usually around on the weekends?
[09:46] <shawarma> I
[09:46] <shawarma> whoops
[10:16] <Deeah> abiword saves as *.abw as default, wouldn't it be better to have it save as .odt(open document format) by default?
[10:17] <bluefoxicy> yes.  Does it support OpenDocument Text yet?
[10:18] <Deeah> The version in edgy does
[10:18] <Deeah> The version in dapper probably does not.
[10:18] <Deeah> (not sure)
[10:18] <HiddenWolf> Deeah: does, but not properly
[10:18] <bluefoxicy> Does it support it well?
[10:18] <jdong> Deeah: Abiword's odt support is not good
[10:18] <Deeah> ahh, so that's why
[10:18] <Deeah> ok
[10:18] <jdong> lots of formatting gets lost
[10:18] <bluefoxicy> ah.  There's your answer ;)
[10:18] <bluefoxicy> (i.e. it does not support ODT)
[10:19] <jdong> but abiword's team has made their position clear that doc support is their #1 priority :(
[10:19] <Deeah> .doc(Word)? or document formats?
[10:20] <jdong> .doc (MS word), yes
[10:20] <jdong> :-/
[10:20] <Deeah> That's sad. :(
[10:20] <jdong> it is sad
[10:20] <Treenaks> feature-wise it;s a good goal
[10:20] <jdong> no kidding
[10:20] <jdong> replacing ms word is a nice goal
[10:21] <jdong> if they can succeed at doing that, I'll applaud them
[10:21] <Treenaks> but odt support would also be nice ;)
[10:21] <jdong> no kidding
[10:21] <Treenaks> What we need is an infinite number of developers!
[10:21] <jdong> :)
[10:21] <Treenaks> Banging away on an infinite number of keyboards
[10:21] <HiddenWolf> jdong: well, it's a start, but they need a hell of a marketing campaign. :)
[10:21] <jdong> HiddenWolf: they need to make their product work :)
[10:22] <jdong> portableapps will take care of the rest
[10:22] <HiddenWolf> jdong: abi is nice already
[10:22] <jdong> damn, a 5MB self-extractable that turns into a MS word replacement
[10:22] <jdong> HiddenWolf: it's nice, but it's not good enough to be a word replacement yet
[10:22] <jdong> I use abiword whenever possible
[10:22] <jdong> but it still is far behind OOo when it comes to MS Word compatibility
[10:22] <HiddenWolf> I have tostick to OOo unfortunatly :)
[10:23] <jdong> OOo is a gigantic monster though
[10:23] <jdong> especially under windows
[10:23] <HiddenWolf> mostly because of the interface of ooo, which you can drag and drop nicely to fit your habits.
[10:23] <jdong> the poor OS wasn't built to support such an app :)
[10:23] <HiddenWolf> yeah, abi is much nicer, but I like OOo's ui. :)
[10:24] <HiddenWolf> at least I like that I can minimize the toolbars to what I like. :)
[10:27] <jdong> anyone know if we're getting new dapper/edgy kernels soon?
[10:27] <jdong> I've heard a dapper kernel is on the way to dapper-security
[10:28] <Deeah> I would use abiword if it supposed odt better. But it doesn't so I'm sticking with OO.o
[10:29] <jdong> OOo does a pretty good job of handling abw, while abiword is really portable (i.e. doesn't take much to put it on a USB stick)
[10:29] <jdong> so I try to use abiword whenever possible
[10:29] <jdong> I've encountered Windows boxes that choke on portable OOo before
[10:29] <jdong> not to mention it takes up way too much of my thumb drive
[10:29] <Treenaks> choking on OOo is not hard
[10:29] <Treenaks> imho the OOo devs need an 'Xorg-like' kick in the nuts
[10:29] <jdong> ooo is one huge beast
[10:29] <pygi> jdong, heh :)
[10:30] <Deeah> You can get a 2 gig thumb drive on newegg.com for $42 iirc
[10:30] <Treenaks> jdong: exactly, as X used to be
[10:30] <jdong> Deeah: size is not the only issue...
[10:30] <jdong> speed is the other one
[10:30] <Treenaks> jdong: one good kick (license change) fixed that
[10:30] <Treenaks> it's still not as good as we'd like it to be
[10:30] <jdong> I'm not waiting 2 minutes for a simple text document to load up :)
[10:30] <Treenaks> but it's been split into manageable chunks
[10:30] <jdong> well, it's still a big beast, as big as before :)
[10:31] <jdong> and don't get me started java bashing
[10:31] <Treenaks> jdong: it's now a chunked beast, with several people, al taming different parts of it
[10:31] <jdong> frankly GCJ has not been the most helpful thing in terms of speed :P
[10:31] <Treenaks> jdong: instead of one stagnant team trying to fix everything
[10:31] <Deeah> Well Sun promised to open source java in October
[10:31] <jdong> freedom, yay, awesome... but speed... no
[10:31] <Deeah> October is in 3 weeks
[10:31] <jdong> Deeah: do you honestly think us Debian/Ubuntu folk are gonna be ok with whatever license sun stamps on it ;)
[10:32] <Deeah> jdong: Well they went out of their way to talk with Debian etc, and they seem to want to cuddle some developers
[10:32] <jdong> Treenaks: it's called vicodin 12.5/750, and I'm already taking them for my aching joints :)
[10:32] <Deeah> So I wouldn't be suprised if it's a dfsg compatible license
[10:32] <jdong> Deeah: let's hope so
[10:32] <Treenaks> jdong: 12.5/750? that sounds like my first modem (1200/75) :P
[10:33] <jdong> trappist: 12.5mg of narcotic goodness, 750mg of tylenol to burn out your liver
[10:33] <jdong> s/trappist/treenaks
[10:33] <Treenaks> jdong: ooh, gratifying
[10:33] <jdong> it is
[10:33] <jdong> I have no idea why "euphoria" is listed as a side effect
[10:33] <jdong> I'd say that's a part of the pill's job
[10:34] <Treenaks> jdong: 'FINALLY! IT'S GONE!'
[10:34] <jdong> euphoria is good amist extreme pain :)
[10:34] <Treenaks> extreme pain--
[10:34] <jdong> yes, extreme pain and arthritis really does suck
[10:36] <Treenaks> this is confusing
[10:36] <Treenaks> jdong here.. jwang on #catalyst (irc.perl.org)
[10:36] <jdong> lol
[10:37] <Treenaks> jdong: you 2 conspired to do this, didn't you? :P
[10:37] <jdong> oh great, the prefetch myths are starting again....
[10:37] <Treenaks> jdong: prefetch or prelink?
[10:37] <jdong> windows's prefetch
[10:37] <Treenaks> windows prefetches?
[10:37] <jdong> that c:\windows\prefetch directory?
[10:37] <Treenaks> never heard of it
[10:37] <jdong> people keep on believing it's a good idea to empty it out
[10:38] <jdong> Treenaks: it's actually amazingly good technology, if you take the time to research it
[10:38] <jdong> basically it's like our readahead, only the lists are dynamically generated by monitoring application loading
[10:38] <Treenaks> ok
[10:38] <jdong> each file in the prefetch directory contains the files that are loaded when a program is started
[10:38] <Treenaks> and clearing that dir negates its effects..
[10:38] <jdong> sorted by location on disk
[10:38] <Keybuk> how do they avoid dynamically monitoring the previous prefetch? :p
[10:39] <jdong> so not only do files get preloaded, but it also reduces disk seeking
[10:39] <Keybuk> we actually have something like that
[10:39] <jdong> it's one of the reasons XP was faster than 2000
[10:39] <Keybuk> boot with the "profile" kernel command line option
[10:39] <jdong> Keybuk: prefetch/preload?
[10:39] <jdong> Keybuk: yes, we do, I'm not saying we don't :)
[10:39] <Keybuk> jdong: why the "only" then?
[10:40] <Keybuk> like our readhead, only ...
[10:40] <jdong> Keybuk: our readahead doesn't dynamically reoptimize itself based on user activity
[10:40] <jdong> Keybuk: and our readahead doesn't look at disk layout to prevent seeking
[10:40] <Keybuk> yes it does
[10:41] <Keybuk> (both)
[10:41] <Keybuk> we don't enable the former because it's damned slow on Linux to set up
[10:42] <jdong> k, that's cool to hear
[10:43] <Keybuk> it's not been very helpful, tbh
[10:43] <jdong> I've noticed....
[10:43] <jdong> on one of my systems, turning off readahead actually helps boot time
[10:43] <Keybuk> Linux is already pretty good at guessing when it needs to readahead things
[10:43] <Keybuk> reminds me that we haven't generated readahead lists for edgy yet
[10:44] <jdong> :)
[10:44] <jdong> hey, my ranting got something accomplished!
[10:44] <Keybuk> but yeah, we have the stuff to watch the running system for files that are opened, and then sort them by disk position to read in the correct order, etc.
[10:44] <Keybuk> it's just so slow to run that it's disabled unless you boot with "profile"
[10:51] <jdong> Keybuk: does the profiled boot save its new list back to /etc/, ready to be used for next bootup?
[10:51] <jdong> i.e. how would I "refresh" the readahead lists?
[10:52] <jdong> I'd expect that to be useful if I've done something that would've changed the position of files on my disk
[10:52] <jdong> i.e. rsync all the files off then back on
[10:53] <bddebian> Howdy
[10:53] <zyga> bddebian: hey
[10:53] <bddebian> Hello zyga
[10:53] <jdong> Keybuk: nvm, answered my own question looking at the init scripts
[10:56] <zyga> hmm, python2.4-doc is not detected by python2.4 at runtime
[11:11] <jdong> Keybuk: re-profiling my edgy box shaved 10 seconds off my bootup time...
[11:11] <jdong> and there is certainly visibly less disk seeking
[11:14] <bluefoxicy> bug #54308 seems to have a fix, which is in upstream CVS as well.
[11:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 54308 in xserver-xorg-video-via "newest edgy via driver breaks" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54308
[11:17] <Keybuk> jdong: seems not unreasonable to expect
[11:51] <blaster8> Any kernel gurus?
[11:51] <blaster8> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/59696
[11:51] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 59696 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Asus Pundit-R SATA only supports 33MBps operation" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[11:51] <blaster8> that's the one
[11:52] <blaster8> Asking for a 2 line backport from 2.6.18 to support high speed DMA on my mobo :)
[11:52] <blaster8> It's all in the bug report