[12:22] <jdong> man, having readahead reprofile itself makes a significant impact in bootup speed on ALL of my ubuntu boxes!
[12:48] <jdong> lol
[12:51] <jdub> tseng: rad! what formfactor is that one? 14" inch?
[01:35] <hikenboot> hello all --there is a package called ubuntu-desktop...it says its unnecessary but removing it will prevent packages from being installed....is this correct?
[01:36] <azeem> hikenboot: please ask in #ubuntu
[01:36] <hikenboot> ok sorry
[02:19] <Xoritor> i have hit a bug... 
[02:19] <Xoritor> just letting you guys know
[02:20] <Xoritor> can anyone tell me the proper place to file a bug report for edgy?
[02:20] <jdong> launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu
[02:20] <Xoritor> ok well im there already...
[02:21] <Xoritor> do i have to "sign up" to file a bug?
[02:21] <Xoritor> i really dont want to do that
[02:21] <jdong> yes, you have to make a launchpad account
[02:21] <jdong> sorry
[02:21] <Hobbsee> !bug
[02:21] <Xoritor> bleh
[02:21] <Hobbsee> eh
[02:21] <jdong> it's not a very demanding form
[02:21] <Hobbsee> !bug > Xoritor 
[02:21] <Xoritor> yea but its just annoying
[02:21] <Xoritor> thx
[02:22] <Xoritor> i just hate "joining" things
[02:22] <Xoritor> my issue though so i will not voice my "volumes of issues" here ;-)
[02:23] <Xoritor> well ill have to wait for "an hour or two" for the message to arrive... even more annoying
[02:25] <Xoritor> maybe you can answer this question and tell me if i even NEED to file a bug
[02:25] <Xoritor> Setting up console-setup (1.7ubuntu6) ...
[02:26] <mbiebl> Kamion_: I was just wondering, why ubuntu-minimal depends on console-tools and console-setup. 
[02:26] <mbiebl> Do they complement each other?
[02:26] <Xoritor> it ran for over an hour the first time...  and some long time after that... i think 3 hours
[02:27] <Xoritor> and this time its running again...
[02:27] <mbiebl> Seems to me, as if they both do basically the same.
[02:28] <jdong> Xoritor: it shouldn't run for hours..... :-/
[02:28] <Xoritor> jdong, thats what i thought!
[02:28] <Xoritor> heh
[02:28] <jdong> Xoritor: is your computer reasonably modern?
[02:28] <jdong> i.e. not below 300MHz :)
[02:28] <Xoritor> p4 3ghz 2gb ram 
[02:29] <jdong> LOL, screw that thought!
[02:29] <Xoritor> wd raptor 74gb
[02:29] <jdong> holy.....
[02:29] <jdong> yeah, I suggest bug reporting that... very strange behavior
[02:29] <jdong> put it on the console-setup package
[02:29] <Xoritor> k
[02:29] <Xoritor> thx
[02:29] <jdong> thx for your patience, sorry about your problems :(
[02:29] <Burgundavia> mdz: hmm, just noticed edgy schedule has no artwork freeze
[02:30] <Xoritor> you think using "time apt-get -f install" would be of any use?
[02:30] <Xoritor> jdong, no problem...
[02:30] <mdz> Burgundavia: artwork is a feature
[02:30] <mdz> as written in the edgy release plan spec
[02:30] <Xoritor> its not a big issue really everything seems to be working fine on that box other than that
[02:30] <mdz> same issues, same deadlines
[02:30] <jdong> Xoritor: i don't think timing that would be any use.... console-setup takes less than a second usually
[02:30] <Burgundavia> ok, which means we are passed the freeze
[02:30] <Burgundavia> just wondering
[02:30] <Xoritor> jdong, again thx
[02:31] <jdong> np
[02:34] <Xoritor> hmm
[02:34] <Xoritor> i seem to have found the issue
[02:34] <Xoritor> the file /etc/default/console-setup does not exist
[02:37] <Deeah> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/jagn0J82.html
[02:38] <Deeah> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/Sc9zqT18.html
[02:38] <Deeah> Check the second link not the first, something is wrong with adduser.
[02:42] <z\> fabbione ping
[02:45] <Xoritor> hey i fixed it!
[02:45] <Xoritor> heh
[02:49] <Deeah> Xoritor: adduser?
[02:49] <Xoritor> Deeah, no... my issue with console-setup
[02:52] <Xoritor> jdong, i am prolly still going to file a bug report and post my solution in case it will help others
[02:52] <jdong> k, sounds good
[03:13] <jdong> alright, everyone, look out....
[03:14] <z\> fabbione ping
[03:14] <jdong> malone, I'm coming your way :)
[03:14] <jdong> usplash.... success!
[03:16] <jdong> sound..... success!
[03:17] <jdong> damn 1900x1200 looks great
[03:19] <jdong> you guys are in the clear -- ubuntu is certified working OOTB on this laptop
[03:22] <mdz> Burgundavia: right, the artwork which is in now should be basically complete, though it will get bugfixes and tweaks as other features will
[03:22] <jdub> jdong: JDONG CERTIFIED (tm)
[03:22] <jdong> :)
[03:23] <jdong> heh, but it does suffer from C3-sleep-whine syndrome
[03:23] <jdong> meh, hardware problem
[03:23] <mjg59> We'll go tickless and it'll be fine
[03:24] <jdong> ooh, when will we go tickless?
[03:24] <jdong> mjg59: you are gonna make me drool all over this shiny new laptop
[03:24] <mjg59> Edgy+1, with luck
[03:25] <jdong> k, cool
[03:39] <Burgundavia> mdz: hmm, ok
[03:48] <jdong> who does readahead?
[03:48] <jdong> namely, bootup is faster if readahead is not backgrounded
[03:49] <jdong> I'd venture to say that's because when readahead is daemonized, it leads to more disk seeking
[03:54] <Burgundavia> jdong: Mithrandir or Kamion_ woudl be the people to talk to
[03:55] <jdong> Burgundavia: thx; I'll launchpad it for now
[05:01] <wasabi> initramfs evms stuff got busted on my system again. root=/dev/evms/root resulted in panic, unable to mount root, no device "evms/root"
[05:01] <wasabi> prolly just a shell script error.
[05:03] <wasabi> The following NEW packages will be installed: liboobs-1-1
[05:03] <wasabi> nice. ;)
[05:41] <_ion> Preconfiguring packages ...
[05:41] <_ion> It's just standing there. :-) console-setup.config is eating the CPU. load average: 2.83, 2.35, 1.47
[05:44] <_ion> root     14449 15.5  0.6   4628  2348 pts/2    R+   06:33   1:38 /bin/bash /tmp/console-setup.config.144313 configure 
[05:45] <_ion> It's been running for >10 minutes.
[06:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45385 in edgy-wallpapers "no wallpaper for dual head/very wide screen monitors" [Wishlist,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/45385
[06:25] <Burgundavia> _ion: they are coming. The changelog explicitly mentions it
[06:26] <_ion> burgundavia: Please read the comment first. The _don't need_ to be coming, thanks to a new feature in Gnome 2.16.
[06:27] <jdub> _ion: using zoom?
[06:27] <_ion> Yes.
[06:27] <jdub> worthy in so many ways
[06:28] <_ion> s/its/his/
[06:54] <diana> In edgy can anyone confirm that nautilus doesn't show any files as view list opposed to view as icons? When I go to "View as List" no files show, just blank white.
[06:55] <diana> View as icons seems to work fine for me, but not view as list. I wanted confirmation before I file a bug.
[07:03] <diana> Lure: you here?
[07:03] <Lure> diana: yep
[07:03] <diana> Lure: You running edgy?
[07:03] <Lure> yes
[07:04] <diana> Lure can you confirm for me that nautilus doesn't show any files as view list opposed to view as icons? When I go to "View as List" no files show, just blank white. View as icons seems to work fine for me, but not view as list. I wanted confirmation before I file a bug.
[07:04] <Lure> diana: I can not - I am running KDE/Kubuntu
[07:04] <_ion> Worksforme
[07:06] <Fujitsu> Works for me(r)(c)(tm) as well.
[07:09] <diana> k, thanks
[07:15] <_ion> Yay, finally i can remove hplip, the accessibility stuff, the bluetooth stuff and scim while keeping ubuntu-desktop installed.
[08:56] <mempf> I can't save in openoffice
[08:56] <mempf> it just crashes, is this a known problem?
[08:56] <Hobbsee> mempf: is where you're saving to writable by the user?
[08:56] <mempf> yes
[08:58] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: I need a feature for UWN. Got a cool Kubuntu one?
[08:58] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: hmmmm....
[09:00] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, KDE4 Krash "working" on Kubuntu edgy ;)
[09:00] <Burgundavia> already talked about that
[09:00] <imbrandon> amarok 1.4.3
[09:00] <Burgundavia> features are features in dapper
[09:00] <imbrandon> ah hmm
[09:01] <Hobbsee> katapult?
[09:05] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: katapult would work, if you wanted to
[09:06] <Burgundavia> can you write up a couple of sentences a screenshot of dapper katapult?
[09:07] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: ok. imbrandon could you provide the love to me?
[09:08] <Burgundavia> by provide, I mean write. By love, I mean two or three sentences on what katapult does plus a screenshot
[09:09] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, sure, do you need it this moment? or do i have a bit ? ( i would need to install dapper in a VM , i only have edgy boxen atm )'
[09:09] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: you have a great deal of time. By great deal, I mean at least 30 minutes ;)
[09:10] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, hehe ok
[09:10] <Burgundavia> seriously, I will find another ubuntu feature, but I like to make certain the derivs get the love too
[09:10] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, lemme grab a soda and i'll get on it
[09:10] <Burgundavia> thanks
[09:10] <Burgundavia> you will even get your name in the editors of this weeks UWN
[09:10] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: it looks the same
[09:10] <imbrandon> ;)
[09:11] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, nah we just added transparency to the new one and i have updated ;(
[09:11] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, but no biggie
[09:11] <Hobbsee> bah.  close enough
[09:15] <troy_s> Anyone have any luck with edgy in vmware-player -- after the updates I can't seem to boot it.
[09:16] <imbrandon> troy_s, yea its kinda broke atm
[09:16] <troy_s> eek
[09:16] <troy_s> well this is booting from dapper.  the edgy image no likey.
[09:17] <imbrandon> troy_s, the only solution i have found so far is to use the vmware server from the website ( not the packages ) and compile a new kernel module
[09:17] <imbrandon> ohhhh
[09:17] <imbrandon> yea edgy i can boot from dapper
[09:17] <troy_s> grr... have you updated it imbrandon ?
[09:17] <troy_s> mine is hanging when it is trying to mount /root
[09:19] <Burgundavia> the vmware issue appears to be a dbus one
[09:20] <troy_s> yeah i read about the edgy vmware player issues, but it should work fine on dapper.  (although i'm on 64 bit and the 64bit edgy didn't install)
[09:33] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, ok almost done .....
[09:33] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[09:33] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, you'll probably have to proof this descrip, i'm not the best writer but it gets the point accross ;)
[09:34] <Burgundavia> add it to the page and I will proof it
[09:34] <imbrandon> yup, almost done
[09:38] <imbrandon> ok Burgundavia whats the link to the "working" page
[09:38] <imbrandon> got it ready, well enough for you to "touch-up" hehe
[09:38] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue13
[09:39] <jdub> Burgundavia: going to html -> text it for the email this week? maybe do html email?
[09:39] <Burgundavia> not going todo the second, but I will play with the first
[09:40] <Burgundavia> I have been thinking about doing it more int he styel fo the gentoo and fedora wn, who only ship a toc
[09:40] <Burgundavia> s/ship/toc
[09:40] <Burgundavia> s/ship/mail/ (ok, I am tired)
[09:42] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, ok text added, now to figure out how to add the screenshot
[09:42] <imbrandon> lol
[09:43] <Burgundavia> just add the url, upload it somewhere else
[09:43] <imbrandon> k
[09:44] <Burgundavia> moins image handling sucks too much
[09:44] <imbrandon> ;)
[09:47] <imbrandon> holy jesus, i put the url and it put it inline , hehe, guess i need to scale it a bit
[09:47] <Burgundavia> right, then do
[09:48] <Burgundavia> [image_url thumb_url] 
[09:48] <imbrandon> ahh ok nice, fixing now
[09:52] <imbrandon> ok much better, ok i'm done Burgundavia, work your magic ;)
[09:52] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: cheers
[09:53] <imbrandon> gah already found a typo , s/atl+spacebar/alt+spacebar please while editing Burgundavia
[09:54] <Burgundavia> got it
[09:56] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: can you make a thumb about half the size?
[09:56] <imbrandon> sure, i'll reupload to the same spot , so it will just pick it right up
[09:57] <Burgundavia> thanks
[09:57] <Burgundavia> jdub: I don't see html2txt on the default install. Which package is that?
[09:58] <imbrandon> ok uploaded Burgundavia, should pick it up on refresh
[09:59] <imbrandon> err ok NOW uploaded
[09:59] <imbrandon> my bad 
[09:59] <imbrandon> heh
[10:05] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, and i just caught that , mailing just the TOC sounds like a good idea to me, just my .02c though
[10:06] <Burgundavia> then I can leave it on moin
[10:06] <Burgundavia> except the wiki has had issues recently
[10:06] <imbrandon> yea, and you donr have to wory about txt vs html emails
[10:07] <imbrandon> becouse i personaly prefer html emails ( to those on my list and *.ubuntu.com is whitelisted ) but i can see the reason some dont tbh
[10:08] <Burgundavia> html email is not going to happen
[10:08] <Fujitsu> +1 Burgundavia.
[10:08] <Fujitsu> No. HTML. Mail.
[10:08] <imbrandon> right, i hear ya, i was just makin a case
[10:08] <imbrandon> not trying to persuade you
[10:08] <imbrandon> ;)
[10:08] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, bah
[10:09] <KurtKraut> How can I gather data from http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/ ? For instance, to check how frequent is the use of Ubuntu over AMD processors ?
[10:09] <Burgundavia> KurtKraut: not easily
[10:09] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, :( any suggestions !?
[10:09] <Burgundavia> hmm, the lead developer of that is ogra, who is currently not around
[10:11] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, is this him ? https://launchpad.net/people/ogra
[10:11] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:11] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, I'll contact him. Thanks.
[10:18] <jdub> Burgundavia: well, there's html2text, but you can also use any of the text web browsers (try some of them for output preferences)
[10:19] <Burgundavia> jdub: thanks
[11:37] <Zdra> hi, since dbus 0.90 upload in edgy I can't find the tool dbus-viewer... is it removed or moved to another patckage ?
[11:46] <Fade> KurtKraut: you can use beautifulsoup to scrape the data directly from the website.
[11:46] <KurtKraut> Fade, thanks for replying but... what is beautifulsoup ?
[11:47] <Spads> http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/
[11:48] <Fade> it's a python module that implements a fairly resilient html parser.
[11:48] <Spads> there's a ruby version called Rubyful soup too
[11:48] <Fade> you'd have to write the logic to scrape the specific site yourself.
[11:49] <KurtKraut> Fade, oh, I see. Thanks.
[11:49] <Fade> I have a small program that you could look at if you want an example of its use.
[11:51] <KurtKraut> Fade, thanks for the offer but I was only wanting this data because of the drop of linux-image-k7/686/amd64
[11:51] <KurtKraut> Fade, I wrote an article about that, trying to calm down people before they complain about it.
[11:51] <KurtKraut> Fade, and I was curious to check how many people uses each arch
[11:51] <Burgundavia> KurtKraut: amd64 should still be there
[11:52] <Burgundavia> Fade: popcon
[11:52] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, packages.ubuntu.com does not say that
[11:52] <Fade> I'm familiar with the popularity contest. :)
[11:52] <imbrandon> KurtKraut, its amd64-generic
[11:52] <KurtKraut> imbrandon, Burgundavia, check out http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=linux-image-amd64-generic&searchon=names&subword=1&version=edgy&release=all
[11:53] <Burgundavia> no, KurtKraut you are right
[11:53] <Burgundavia>  linux-image-amd64-generic - Obsoleted by: linux-image-generic
[11:53] <imbrandon> hrm no 64bit kernel ?
[11:54] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, I may even agree with the k7 and 686 drop. But the amd64 ? None of the bechmarks shown that it was unnecessery
[11:54] <KurtKraut> There was a bechmark comparing amd64-generic with amd64-xeon and there was almost no diferente
[11:54] <KurtKraut> but between amd64-generic and i386 there is obviously some difference
[11:55] <Burgundavia> no idea, ask mdz or BenC
[11:55] <KurtKraut> And I'm a bit concerned how the community will receive this changes.
[11:55] <Burgundavia> about 0.5% will bitch
[11:55] <imbrandon> moreso when they cant run 64bit usrland apps
[11:55] <Burgundavia> which consitutes about 50% of the active forum users
[11:56] <KurtKraut> Burgundavia, ahahha :D
[11:56] <imbrandon> lol
[11:56] <Fade> :)
[11:56] <Burgundavia> at approx. 7 million installs and about 1000 active forum users, my numbers are actually pretty accurate
[11:57] <Lure> KurtKraut: amd64 is still there - as it is different architecture
[11:57] <Lure> KurtKraut: only i386 architecture kernel types were simpliefied
[11:57] <imbrandon> i was gonna say there is no way we droped 64bit support
[11:58] <imbrandon> but i was gonna check first
[11:58] <KurtKraut> Lure, but have you seen how packages.ubuntu.com is labeling the linux-image-amd64-generic ?
[11:58] <Fade> does hwdb expose a method to look up available records?
[11:58] <Burgundavia> -generic is just being built for both arches
[11:58] <Lure> Burgundavia: exactly
[11:59] <Burgundavia> the kernel has always been a little odd anyway
[11:59] <Burgundavia> we don't install gnome-amd64 or gnome-i386
[11:59] <Fade> that would be determined by the pool.
[12:00] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, actualy you do
[12:00] <imbrandon> you install gnome-version_arch.deb
[12:00] <imbrandon> ;)
[12:00] <imbrandon> but its handled by dpkg
[12:00] <imbrandon> and apt
[12:00] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:00] <Fade> gnome-powerpc for example is implicit. :)
[12:01] <imbrandon> but what we DONT do is install gnome-386 vs -686
[12:01] <Burgundavia> if you want true crack, here is a good one: Debian doesn't have a single kernel source package like we do
[12:01] <imbrandon> i think thats what you ment
[12:01] <Burgundavia> no, I meant the arch name is not in the binary package
[12:01] <Burgundavia> but yes, we don't have that either
[12:01] <Burgundavia> although we used to build mplayer like that
[12:01] <imbrandon> yea becouse it USED to matter, notso anymore
[12:02] <imbrandon> debian dosent what now? hehe i missed that one
[12:02] <imbrandon> lemme grab some more coffee brb
[12:04] <imbrandon> oh wow Burgundavia i never noticed that, yea that is crackfull ( about the debian kernel sources )
[12:07] <Fade> what ubuntu needs is a wiki entry describing the kernel policy and build proceedure.
[12:07] <KurtKraut> Fade, +1
[12:08] <Fade> I've been building custom kernels the debian way, but the initrd in the mainline edgy stream isn't booting my laptop because it doesn't seem to load the reiserfs module from initrd.
[12:08] <Mithrandir> Fade: like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild ?
[12:08] <Burgundavia> Fade: start writing one and get BenC or mdz to approve it
[12:08] <Fade> I'm afraid I don't know enough about it to do the doc any justice.
[12:08] <ogra> hmm, does anybody have an idea why our debootstrap is so broken ? 
[12:09] <ogra> the --verbose option isnt really helful :(
[12:09] <Fade> specifically about the mechanics of initrd.
[12:10] <Fade> the initrd in the powerpc arch is broken, for the last two releases.
[12:11] <Burgundavia> don't we use initramfs now?
[12:12] <Fade> Mithrandir: I dunno if you're involved in X triage, but (x|gnu)emacs is still bjorked. :)
[12:13] <Mithrandir> Fade: get me a backtrace with full debug symbols and I can begin poking at it.
[12:13] <Fade> xemacs-gnome works and xemacs -nw works, but if you start a native X process it dies spectacularly.
[12:13] <Fade> there's a full backtrace in my bugreport
[12:13] <Mithrandir> which bug?
[12:13] <Kamion_> Burgundavia: I don't know where you got the idea that I do readahead, but I don't
[12:13] <Fade> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xemacs21/+bug/58856
[12:13] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 58856 in xemacs21 "xemacs segfaults on edgy powerpc system" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[12:14] <Kamion_> _ion: could I get a trace of that console-setup installation with DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer set in the environment?
[12:14] <Burgundavia> Kamion_: you play with the cds. In Mith the better person for that?
[12:15] <Mithrandir> Fade: that backtrace is useless -- I need one with debugging symbols.
[12:15] <Fade> how do I generate it?
[12:15] <Kamion_> KurtKraut: huh? amd64-generic -> generic was just a rename; we aren't "dropping" the amd64 kernel
[12:15] <Mithrandir> Fade: build the package with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip 
[12:15] <Kamion_> Burgundavia: try the readahead changelog ...
[12:15] <KurtKraut> KaiL_, renamed to what ?
[12:15] <KurtKraut> Kamion_,  renamed to what ?
[12:15] <Fade> okay. give me about twenty minutes.
[12:16] <Mithrandir> Fade: I need to go see my wife now, but if you post what you find to the bug I'll read it later.
[12:16] <Burgundavia> Kamion_: ok, will do
[12:17] <Fade> okay
[12:17] <Fade> wil "export DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip && sudo pbuilder build xemacs21.dsc" do the trick?
[12:18] <Mithrandir> Fade: probably not, no.
[12:19] <Fade> where should i set the var?
[12:19] <Fade> just run pbuilder from a root shell?
[12:25] <Fade> ah, I got it.
[12:33] <Kamion_> Burgundavia: Debian does have more or less a single kernel source now, by the way
[12:33] <Kamion_> KurtKraut: linux-image-*-amd64-generic -> linux-image-*-generic
[12:33] <Kamion_> it was just a rationalisation to get rid of the unnecessary architecture name in the package name
[12:34] <Kamion_> KurtKraut: note that linux-image-*-generic on i386 is a different kind of kernel build to linux-image-*-generic on amd64
[12:34] <KurtKraut> Kamion_, oh, now it is clear. Thanks.
[12:35] <Kamion_> KurtKraut: if you've already published an article containing the misunderstanding, it would be nice to correct that
[12:36] <Kamion_> KurtKraut: the full details are here: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.17/linux-source-2.6.17_2.6.17-7.19/changelog
[12:36] <Kamion_> under "Changes in kernel targets:"
[12:36] <KurtKraut> Kamion_, I already wrote that part as 'pending confirmation'
[12:37] <ogra> Kamion_, do you have a clue why debootstrap is broken atm ? i just tried it with --verbose but that seems to do exactly nothing ...
[12:38] <Kamion_> ogra: not without a bit more detail, e.g. a transcript; it worked for me just the other day
[12:38] <ogra> ok, i'm just running it again ... will look deeper in the chroot then ...
[12:38] <Kamion_> or try running with set -x
[12:39] <ogra> ok, next run :)
[12:42] <ogra> Kamion, aha, seems xkb-data isnt in the chroot ... i'll try the set -x now
[12:43] <Kamion> I did promote xkb-data to priority important, so debootstrap should pick it up
[12:43] <Kamion> (it's needed for console-setup)
[12:43] <ogra>  xkeyboard-config depends on xkb-data; however:
[12:43] <ogra>   Package xkb-data is not installed.
[12:44] <ogra> thats what dpkg --configure -a in the chroot gives me
[12:44] <ogra> with a bunch of subsequent errors
[12:44] <ogra> (including console-setup)
[12:45] <Kamion> I suspect there are earlier errors that you've skipped over
[12:45] <Kamion> perhaps some way back?
[12:45] <Kamion> maybe causing x11-common or xkb-data not to be installed?
[12:45] <Kamion> I'm trying a debootstrap myself now to compare
[12:47] <ogra> well, debootstrap is very silent, as i said ...
[12:47] <tseng> jdub: yes 14" 'widesreen'
[12:47] <ogra> even --verbose doesnt change anything in its output ...
[12:47] <ogra> the one with set -x is running ...
[12:47] <Kamion> there should be a log somewhere in the created chroot
[12:47] <ogra> but doesnt seem to give any extra output of the download ...
[12:48] <Kamion> either /debootstrap/debootstrap.log or /var/log/bootstrap.log, IIRC
[12:48] <ogra> ah, crap indeed i deleted the chroot to build a new one
[12:48] <Kamion> well, I'm building one now
[12:48] <Kamion> anyway, coffee
[12:48] <ogra> i'll check it after that run has finished ... takes a moment
[12:48] <ogra> good idea :)
[12:55] <Kamion> ah
[12:55] <Kamion> dpkg: regarding .../xkb-data_0.8-7ubuntu1_all.deb containing xkb-data, pre-depen
[12:55] <Kamion> dency problem:
[12:55] <Kamion>  xkb-data pre-depends on x11-common (>= 7.0.0-0ubuntu3)
[12:55] <Kamion>   x11-common is unpacked, but has never been configured.
[12:55] <Kamion> the pre-dep is giving it trouble
[12:56] <ogra> ah
[12:56] <Kamion> I think I need to promote x11-common to required; then it'll be done first
[12:56] <Kamion> done that now
[12:57] <Kamion> should be fixed after the next publisher run; thanks
[12:57] <ogra> cool, thanks :)
[12:57] <ogra> ltsp will be happy again 
[12:57] <ogra> now i have to find out me what changed on the 7th that made my i386 (and only that ) CD grow by 30M ...
[12:58] <ogra> its very weird ...
[12:58] <Hobbsee> ogra: could you not count before?
[12:58] <ogra> Hobbsee, the thing is i didnt touch anything ... but it broke exactly on the 7th 
[12:59] <Hobbsee> ogra: :(  what else would have been touched?
[12:59] <ogra> so something in the ubuntu metapackages (-minimal etc) must have changed or something in the seeds ...
[12:59] <ogra> but the bzr logs of the ubuntu seeds dont show anything suspicious
[01:00] <ogra> ah, wait ...
[01:00] <ogra> * switch to 2.6.17-7; adapt installer seed to new image names (amd64-generic -> generic, itanium-smp -> itanium)
[01:01] <ogra> the installer seed doesnt use the linux metapackage ... :)
[01:01] <ogra> i didnt merge  :)
[01:01] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:01] <Hobbsee> silly ogra :P
[01:02] <ogra> hmm
[01:03] <ogra> whats the deal with package names in brackets now ? 
[01:03] <ogra> are that recommends ? 
[01:03] <ogra> ah, right, they are 
[01:08] <Kamion> _ion: console-setup 1.7ubuntu7 might fix your problem, but I'd still be interested to see the above trace
[01:08] <_ion> kamion: Here it is. (At the end, i ^C'd.) http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/console-setup.log
[01:10] <Kamion> _ion: did you set the layout to us,fi yourself?
[01:11] <Whoopie> Kamion: Hi, although you approved openoffice.org-l10n for dapper-proposed, it didn't arrive the archives.
[01:11] <_ion> kamion: Yes.
[01:11] <Kamion> _ion: ok, fixed in 1.7ubuntu7, thanks
[01:11] <_ion> kamion: I use fi when writing Finnish text, but us everywhere else. fi really sucks for coding. :-)
[01:11] <_ion> kamion: Ok, thanks.
[01:12] <Kamion> I'm not sure whether console-setup can/should attempt to handle us,fi better
[01:12] <Kamion> if it produces bad results for you, let me know via a bug report on console-setup
[01:13] <Kamion> but the immediate bug was just a straight infinite loop
[01:14] <_ion> kamion: Just ignore everything but the first one, if keymap switching isn't possible/practical in console.
[01:14] <_ion> People probably generally use the primary one as the first one.
[01:14] <_ion> s/primary/preferred/
[01:15] <Kamion> Whoopie: whoops, looks like I checked it over but never actually typed 'queue accept'. Fixed now.
[01:15] <Kamion> thanks
[01:15] <Whoopie> Kamion: thank you.
[01:16] <Kamion> _ion: I believe we can actually do toggling
[01:17] <Kamion> might be wrong though
[01:17] <_ion> kamion: Ok. That would be cool.
[01:17] <_ion> kamion: 1.7ubuntu7 is going to appear here first, right? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/console-setup
[01:19] <Kamion> yeah
[01:19] <Kamion> yeah, we definitely can do toggling - I just tried it with Thai
[01:19] <Kamion> though it didn't seem to want to let me switch back to Latin - I might be on crack though
[01:22] <Kamion> you get used to safely unwedging your keyboard layout while working on this stuff :)
[01:32] <hunger> This time it just stopps with a message along the lines of "unknown signal recieved".
[01:36] <Keybuk> hunger: what is the exact message?
[01:50] <Hobbsee> Kamion: ping?
[01:50] <Hobbsee> Kamion: do you know that console-setup seems to be failing on preconfigure? http://rafb.net/paste/results/fhrtQY55.html
[01:53] <Fade> hrmn. how do you change a debian/rules file in a package you're building with pbuilder?
[01:53] <azeem> you change it, then create a new source package you point pbuilder at
[01:53] <hunger> Keybuk: I need to reboot to see it... and then I'll need about an hour to get the system up again. I do not have the time to do that right now.
[01:54] <hunger> Keybuk: I'll tell you tomorrow if that is OK.
[01:55] <Fade> I just want to set DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, is there any less involved way for injecting it into a pbuilder build?
[01:58] <StevenK> Hobbsee/Kamion: Smells like debconf-age
[02:15] <ogra> ugh
[02:15] <ogra> wh does my dist-upgrade want to remove xchat ?
[02:15] <Hobbsee> ogra: it's a mean and nasty plot to make you switch to konversation.
[02:15] <ogra> hmmm
[02:16] <ogra> only through the update-manager ...
[02:16] <Fujitsu> (ie. moving to Mono as the primary development platform)
[02:16] <jdong> Fujitsu: oh come on, what's wrong with mono? :)
[02:16] <Spads> nucleosis
[02:17] <ogra> ubuntu will still stay with python as primamry lang ...
[02:17] <Fujitsu> It is Microsofty to the max...
[02:17] <Fujitsu> I'd hope so, ogra, but GNOME's going to Mono.
[02:17] <jdong> Fujitsu: it's novelly :)
[02:17] <Fujitsu> ...
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Urgh.
[02:17] <ogra> Fujitsu, lets them ... why should we care
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Even worse :P
[02:17] <jdong> oh come on, everyone loves novell :P
[02:17] <jdub> Fujitsu: on what basis do you believe that gnome is "moving to mono"?
[02:18] <Hobbsee> jdong: yeah right.
[02:18] <jdub> Fujitsu: additionally, xchat vs. xchat-gnome is totally an ubuntu issue; neither are shipped with gnome.
[02:18] <Fujitsu> Well, they seem to be recommending that people develop applications in Mono...
[02:18] <jdong> Fujitsu: by including gtk# and one mono app?
[02:18] <jdub> Fujitsu: 'gnome' does? no.
[02:18] <Hobbsee> heya jdub 
[02:18] <Fujitsu> jdub, where did X-Chat come into it?
[02:18] <jdub> morning Hobbsee 
[02:19] <Fujitsu> jdub, I'm sure I saw a recommendation somewhere...
[02:19] <Hobbsee> jdub: it's not morning.
[02:19] <zul> morning jdub 
[02:19] <jdub> Fujitsu: unless you were randomly commenting in the middle of things, i figured you were responding to the topic of conversation
[02:19] <jdub> Fujitsu: you may be confusing inclusion of gtk# in the gnome bindings release with 'recommendation'
[02:19] <jdong> Fujitsu: again, I ask... is there anything wrong with apps written in mono?
[02:19] <jdong> other than it's not your favorite language?
[02:19] <jdub> Fujitsu: perhaps you should look at the other bindings in that suite
[02:19] <Fujitsu> jdub, Hobbsee mentioned `switching to Konversation'.
[02:20] <jdub> Fujitsu: there were previous comments i thought you may be responding to, if not, it's not relevant
[02:20] <jdong> Fujitsu: Hobbsee is kubuntu to the max....
[02:20] <jdong> :)
[02:20] <Fujitsu> jdong, the language is controlled by Microsoft, and somewhat bloated.
[02:20] <Fujitsu> jdong, I know.
[02:20] <jdong> Fujitsu: MS doesn't really control it anymore
[02:20] <Hobbsee> jdong: all lies.  i use firefox and thunderbird!
[02:20] <jdong> Fujitsu: and honestly, mono runs much faster than python
[02:20] <jdub> "bloated" doesn't mean anything; please don't use it in a discussion that might be technical
[02:20] <Spads> Where oh where is my FORTH desktop???
[02:21] <jdub> Spads: in your boot rom i would hope!
[02:21] <jdong> no offense to anyone or anything python -- I like python :)
[02:21] <Hobbsee> Spads: GNOME deleted it for simplicity.
[02:21] <Hobbsee> :P
[02:21] <jdub> Spads: did you see that OLPC guys are giving linuxbios forth love?
[02:21] <Spads> jdub: !!
[02:21] <jdub> Spads: exactly!
[02:21] <jdub> i'm just waiting for the gtk+ bindings
[02:22] <jdub> nothing like having a gui bios!!!
[02:22] <_ion> I think i read C# is going to support closures. Python even doesn't support them.
[02:22] <jdub> hfsnw!
[02:22] <jdong> _ion: does python 2.5 support generics yet?
[02:23] <_ion> jdong: I don't know.
[02:23] <jdong> I've recently started liking mono
[02:23] <jdong> the first time I tried it was a long time back, and it was too immature
[02:24] <jdong> but now, it's a wonderful platform to work on
[02:25] <_ion> Python does have some almost PHP-ish inconsistencies (e.g. len(str) vs. str.count("x"), wtf?). And some things are just nasty, e.g. having to type "self.__" in front of every single instance variable you want to be private.
[02:26] <jdub> Ex-WarehouseDispatch to Local Courier
[02:26] <jdub> woo
[02:26] <Kamion> Hobbsee: should be fixed in console-setup 1.7ubuntu7; see the first changelog entry therein
[02:26] <Hobbsee> Kamion: cool, i didnt see that when i checked LP.
[02:27] <jdong> Kamion: how are the default lists for readahead generated?
[02:27] <Kamion> jdong: no idea; I have nothing to do with readahead
[02:27] <jdong> oh, sorry, someone told me to ask you that yesterday :)
[02:28] <Kamion> yes, see above where I told Burgundavia he was mistaken
[02:28] <jdub> jdong: you might want to ask thom and/or Keybuk 
[02:28] <jdong> k
[02:29] <Keybuk> jdong: I install a machine, boot with "profile" and store the lists in the package
[02:29] <Keybuk> unsurprisingly
[02:29] <jdong> Keybuk: k, that's what I guessed
[02:29] <jdong> Keybuk: I was noticing that my dapper box profiled a significantly different list than that was default
[02:29] <Keybuk> jdong: did you install your dapper box fresh, or upgrade it?
[02:29] <jdong> Keybuk: it was fresh, but alternate cd
[02:29] <Keybuk> or have you installed anything else on it?
[02:30] <jdong> it's relatively vanilla
[02:30] <thom> Keybuk: does readahead not do any sorting based on on-disk location now?
[02:30] <Keybuk> was the contents substantially different, or just the order?
[02:30] <jdong> order, actually
[02:30] <Keybuk> thom: the watch files are sorted
[02:30] <jdong> I think the order should be recalculated as a part of postinst
[02:30] <Keybuk> jdong: yeah, it'd make sense
[02:30] <jdong> it shouldn't be too hard to split out that code into readahead-reorder, right?
[02:31] <thom> Keybuk: right, i think we decided back in mataro that that was very install dependent, which is why the init script did it in the stop target
[02:31] <jdong> and on a related note, bug 59716
[02:31] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 59716 in readahead-list "Bootup is consistently faster when readahead is not daemonized" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59716
[02:31] <Keybuk> thom: that never worked though?
[02:31] <jdong> it holds true on my computers
[02:31] <Keybuk> and really upset people with NFS filesystems, thin clients, etc.
[02:32] <Keybuk> jdong: yes, I've been fighting that argument for a year now
[02:32] <jdong> maybe that won't hold true with NFS, but it certainly holds true with disks :)
[02:32] <Keybuk> the plan I wanted was to have /etc/readahead/$pkg for each package
[02:32] <jdong> if it's not acceptable as a hard-coded default, at least give us a /etc/default/readahead way of specifying fg vs bg
[02:32] <Keybuk> and have those files aggregated and sorted each time for each boot based on the installed packages
[02:33] <jdong> Keybuk: how long's it take to sort though?
[02:33] <Keybuk> jdong: nanoseconds
[02:33] <Keybuk> depending on the size of the list, obviously
[02:34] <jdong> :)
[02:34] <jdong> my edgy box has like 1500 files in its readahead list now
[02:34] <jdong> but it takes only a few seconds to read off
[02:34] <jdong> reprofiling + foregrounding readahead has done WONDERS to my bootup speed
[02:34] <jdong> it's now half what it used to be
[02:34] <Keybuk> it'd be an interesting experiment
[02:35] <Keybuk> modify readahead-list to do FBIOMAP and sort the list before readahead()
[02:35] <Keybuk> you have to open the files *anyway* after all
[02:35] <Keybuk> so instead of 
[02:35] <jdong> ooh
[02:35] <Keybuk> fd = open (...)
[02:35] <Keybuk> readahead (fd, ...)
[02:35] <Keybuk> do
[02:35] <Keybuk> fd = open (...)
[02:35] <Keybuk> ioctl (fd, FBIOMAP, ...)
[02:35] <Keybuk> /* resort */
[02:36] <jdong> ooh, then it'd always be read in the right order
[02:36] <Keybuk> I wish inotify didn't suck
[02:36] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: write that after upstart?  *ducks*
[02:36] <Keybuk> you should be able to do a recursive inotify on the entire filesystem
[02:37] <Hobbsee> s/write/rewrite/
[02:37] <Keybuk> jdong: unless you're running a stupid filesystem, they shouldn't be fragmented
[02:37] <Keybuk> ext3 generally tries to keep them unfragmented
[02:37] <jdong> Keybuk: generally, yes... do they get 2 or 3 fragments from time to time? yes
[02:38] <jdong> and I don't think linux has any filesystem THAT stupid :P
[02:38] <Keybuk> sometimes
[02:38] <Keybuk> reiser
[02:38] <jdong> only on large files though
[02:39] <jdong> so as far as running readahead as foreground, what is the opposition right now?
[02:41] <jdong> about 25% of the files in the list are fragmented, though usually it's just 2 fragments... so not worth it :)
[02:43] <Lathiat> 
[02:43] <Mithrandir> 
[02:44] <ogra>                           ?
[02:44] <jdong>    .
[02:45] <Fujitsu>                          !
[02:47] <Hobbsee>              *
[02:47] <Hobbsee> hey!  which bit of me are you ruffling there?
[02:48] <Hobbsee> you cant.  it's on my *head*
[02:48] <Hobbsee> and you cant steal my head.
[02:48] <Mithrandir> stealing people's heads is considered rude, yes.
[02:48] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehe
[02:49] <Fujitsu> :O
[02:49] <Fujitsu> How dare you!
[02:50] <Fujitsu> Darnit.
[02:50] <Hobbsee> you cant join us again
[02:50] <Hobbsee> it's locked.  i do a better job than that.
[02:50] <Fujitsu> Aw... Why not?
[02:50] <Fujitsu> Damn...
[02:50] <Hobbsee> hah.  it's far too short for that.
[02:51] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[02:51] <Hobbsee> "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE"
[02:51] <Hobbsee> </end sillyness>
[02:51] <Fujitsu> Yes, MOTU-Hobbsee shall always win against nothing-Fujitsu. :P
[02:52] <Hobbsee> heh
[02:52] <ivoks> Keybuk: thanks for live-f1 :)
[02:54] <abattoir> ivoks: where?   :P
[02:55] <ivoks> abattoir: ftp://ftp.netsplit.com/pub/live-f1/0.2/
[03:01] <ogra> hmm
[03:01] <ogra> Kamion, do i need to add the new recommends stuff to output_seeds in edubuntu-metas update.cfg ? 
[03:02] <ogra> i dont get the listing i saw in ubuntu-meta for the recommends
[03:02] <ogra> (in the changelog)
[03:02] <ogra> i only see removals ...
[03:09] <Kamion> ogra: no, you shouldn't; and that's normal for new seeds
[03:09] <Kamion> (it's arguably a bug, but at present it's normal)
[03:09] <Kamion> I mean for new outputs
[03:09] <Kamion> your next upload will include recommends changes
[03:09] <Kamion> I'd just add a note to the changelog saying that the above depends have become recommends, or similar
[03:11] <_ion> Oh, wow. I ate a dinner, and my box is still building console-setup 1.7ubuntu7. :-)
[03:11] <_ion> It's been at it for almost an hour.
[03:12] <Kamion> yeah, takes ages to build all the fonts
[03:14] <Kamion> wish I could work out why Alt+Shift toggling only appears to work in one direction
[03:15] <_ion> Nice, a deb is already available. https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/243937/console-setup
[03:17] <_ion> kamion: It installed correctly.
[03:21] <Kamion> _ion: great, thanks
[03:22] <Keybuk> jdong: massively slows down the Live CD, iirc
[03:22] <Keybuk> and people file bugs that readahead takes up an amount of their boot process
[03:22] <Keybuk> without realising that it reduces the rest by more than it takes
[03:24] <Keybuk> and there's variable data on that sadly
[03:24] <Keybuk> seems to depend largely on the drive speed, for example
[03:28] <Keybuk> ideally, we should be able to mark a file in the system as not suitable for fragmentation
[03:29] <Keybuk> do that for files read at boot
[03:29] <Keybuk> readahead them in block order
[03:29] <Keybuk> etc.
[03:29] <Keybuk> in fact, I'd go as far as even trying to arrange them sequentially on the disk
[03:29] <Keybuk> but that kind of low-level filesystem engineering is ... complicated
[03:30] <Mithrandir> especially since the consecutive blocks the FS sees might not be consecutive on-disk.  Think raid-0, LVM and similar cases.
[03:30] <Keybuk> indeed
[03:30] <Keybuk> though we could always just let those users suffer <g>
[03:31] <Keybuk> if you're using RAID, you don't care about filesystem speed anyway, just reliability
[03:31] <Keybuk> and probably aren't a boot speed ricer
[03:32] <Mithrandir> true, since initialising your SCSI card is going to take 30 seconds _anyhow_
[03:34] <_ion> Since when do you need SCSI to do RAID? :-)
[03:34] <Keybuk> _ion: even if you don't, RAID is slow
[03:34] <Keybuk> it's not supposed to be fast
[03:34] <Keybuk> it's supposed to just corrupt your data in more interesting ways when it goes wrong
[03:34] <Keybuk> err, I mean, be more reliable :p
[03:34] <_ion> Hehe.
[03:36] <_ion> Re: boot speed, this is interesting. https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/fcache
[03:37] <Keybuk> _ion: sounds a bit similar to a crackful idea I had
[03:37] <Keybuk> make the standard install a squashfs, and readahead that before loop mounting it :p
[03:37] <Keybuk> I didn't tell Mithrandir, for fear that he would implement it :p
[03:38] <_ion> Hehe.
[03:38] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: this is now I should tell you I have toyed with the idea?
[03:38] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: we _do_ actually support it.
[03:38] <Mithrandir> fsvo support
[03:38] <Keybuk> it doesn't surprise me :p
[03:38] <tseng> Mithrandir: you're nuts
[03:39] <Mithrandir> tseng: nah, not really.  It made my testing a lot quicker when I could just drop stuff onto a USB drive instead of burning CDs.
[03:39] <Mithrandir> also meant I don't have to use a CD/DVD drive for my x40
[03:40] <Keybuk> one way we could do it is reserve an initial amount of the disk
[03:40] <Keybuk> say the size of the available memory
[03:40] <Keybuk> mark it as a special/reserved block
[03:40] <Keybuk> and read from that
[03:40] <Keybuk> arranging the boot files in there sequentially, etc.
[03:43] <Keybuk> in fact
[03:44] <Keybuk> what we need is a magic partition that can directly seed the page cache in such a way that it's fooled into believing it has the same data as on the real partition
[03:44] <Keybuk> without risking problems with the magic being out of date
[03:44] <Keybuk> of course, the more crackful you get, the more difficult it is to maintain :p
[03:44] <_ion> Hmm, doesn't the "fcache" thing do something like that?
[03:44] <Treenaks> Keybuk: we just need to stop people rebooting! :)
[03:45] <Keybuk> _ion: yeah, basically
[03:45] <Hobbsee> Treenaks: heh.  fix suspend/hibernate, and we wont have to!
[03:45] <Keybuk> suspend is fine
[03:46] <Keybuk> it's resume that's the problem :p
[03:46] <Treenaks> Keybuk: not for my laptop
[03:46] <Treenaks> Keybuk: (but that might be Radeon/R200 related)
[03:48] <LarstiQ> Keybuk: heh, just like flying ;)
[03:48] <Keybuk> flying is easy, it's landing that's difficult? :p
[03:48] <Keybuk> or landing gently
[03:51] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: hehe.  true that
[03:51] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: and no, "Crash and burn" is not an acceptible solution :P
[03:53] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I think Scott's laptop know all about the "burn" part at least.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehe.  true that
[03:54] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: hmm?
[03:55] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: you had some fun when we loaded the fan module a bit late, IIRC?
[03:55] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: it still has problems with that
[03:55] <Keybuk> using ondemand instead of powernowd has made a big difference to the fan noise though
[03:57] <Hobbsee> hmmmm, now you've reminded me.
[04:05] <_ion> Sigh, yet another situation apt's dist-upgrade can't handle.
[04:06] <_ion> The following packages have been kept back:
[04:06] <_ion>   libggi2
[04:06] <_ion> smartpm naturally handles that without a hitch.
[04:06] <Keybuk> _ion: by removing half of your system in retaliation? :p
[04:06] <Keybuk> does aptitude handle it?
[04:07] <_ion> keybuk: smartpm: Upgrading packages (1): libggi2_1:2.2.1-4ubuntu1   Installing packages (2): libgii1_1:1.0.1-2 libgii1-target-x_1:1.0.1-2   Removing packages (2): libgii0_1:0.9.1-0.2 libgii0-target-x_1:0.9.1-0.2
[04:07] <Keybuk> the problem with smart is that it's only demonstratibily different to apt
[04:07] <Keybuk> there's a lot of things smart gets wrong that apt just works with 
[04:08] <Keybuk> it's not better
[04:08] <Keybuk> or, at least, cannot be demonstrated to be so
[04:08] <HiddenWolf> my dist-upgrade only took 3 tries and some manual apt-get magic to get right. =)
[04:09] <Keybuk> and smart has huge problems of its own
[04:09] <Keybuk> e.g. it becomes impossible to ever upgrade python <g>
[04:09] <_ion> keybuk: aptitude handles it correctly as well.
[04:10] <Keybuk> aptitude has been the "standard" dist-upgrade tool for a while, remember
[04:10] <Keybuk> Debian no longer recommend "apt-get dist-upgrade"
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: hehe.  well, why would you want to update python anyway?
[04:11] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: you don't want python 2.5?
[04:12] <_ion> I slightly dislike aptitude's way of handling manually/automatically installed packages. Debfoster seems to handle it better.
[04:12] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: well...
[04:14] <bddebian> Howdy folks
[04:15] <pygi> hey ho bddebian 
[04:15] <bddebian> Hi pygi
[04:15] <bddebian> pygi: Well I'm close I think
[04:15] <bddebian> I don't know wtf the package config files are though :'-(
[04:16] <pygi> bddebian, ah, no worries
[04:16] <pygi> anyway, gotta run
[04:16] <pygi> talk to you later
[04:22] <Kamion> ogra: there's another problem with x11-common/debootstrap; fixing it now
[04:23] <ogra> ah, i was already wondering if the publisher cronjob had dies ;)
[04:23] <ogra> *died
[04:23] <Kamion> nah, /etc/init.d/x11-common wasn't coping with /etc/default/rcS not existing
[04:24] <ogra> ah, upstart fun :)
[04:24] <Kamion> no
[04:24] <ogra> oh ? 
[04:24] <Kamion> absolutely nothing to do with upstart
[04:24] <Kamion> /etc/default/rcS isn't created by debootstrap - it's created by other parts of the installer
[04:24] <ogra> ah, k
[04:24] <ogra> i thought it came from sysvinit 
[04:24] <Kamion> please don't blame everything to do with /etc/init.d/* on upstart :-)
[04:25] <Hobbsee> Kamion: why not?  it's scott's week for being blamed :D
[04:26] <Kamion> heh, actually it's created by initscripts
[04:27] <Kamion> (but that's still used by upstart)
[04:27] <Kamion> however:
[04:27] <Kamion> I: Configuring x11-common...
[04:27] <Kamion> I: Configuring initscripts...
[04:27] <ogra> oh :)
[04:27] <Kamion> I don't feel like adding a Depends to avoid that, though
[04:27] <ogra> hmm, what else would work then ? 
[04:27] <Kamion> not bothering to source /etc/default/rcS if it's not there
[04:27] <Kamion> read the init script - the only thing it's used for is $VERBOSE
[04:28] <Kamion> that can trivially be ignored
[04:28] <ogra> yeah :)
[04:29] <ogra> i wonder how debian solves that
[04:29] <ogra> they will have the same prob, no ?
[04:29] <Kamion> it doesn't need to, because Debian does not install x11-common from debootstrap
[04:29] <ogra> ah
[04:29] <Kamion> we've only just started doing that, because we've moved to console-setup
[04:29] <Kamion> Debian hasn't yet
[04:29] <ogra> yup
[04:30] <Kamion> I'm sure they will - it's a much better solution and it's written by Debian folks
[04:30] <Kamion> but it's a bit uncomfortable at this point in the etch release cycle
[04:32] <ogra> when do they freeze ? 
[04:32] <ogra> must be soon if they want to release in december
[04:33] <Mithrandir> ogra: Debian has a gradual freeze which has already started.
[04:33] <ogra> Keybuk, ?
[04:34] <ogra> you dont belive they make it this year ? :)
[04:34] <ogra> Mithrandir, ah
[04:34] <Keybuk> ogra: always blaming me for everything
[04:34] <ogra> sorry ... comes in so handy with such a big change :)
[04:34] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:35] <Keybuk> the next time you make a change as big, and only get trivial/minor bugs, then you can tease as much as you like :D
[04:35] <ogra> :)
[04:36] <Hobbsee> jdong: did you kill g-p-m first?
[04:36] <Hobbsee> jdong: actually, yeah, i noticed that.
[04:36] <jdong> Hobbsee: it's Keybuk's fault... I swear
[04:36] <Keybuk> jdong: it is
[04:36] <jdong> seriously, this time it is :)
[04:36] <Keybuk> keybuk didn't do the second part of that patch
[04:37] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I can blame you for kinda-breaking casper. :-P
[04:37] <Keybuk> shutdown -h now will work properly now, of course
[04:37] <Hobbsee> jdong: what do you mean "this time?"
[04:37] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: oh?
[04:37] <Keybuk> jdong: actually, it's KDE's fault for using the wrong damned command to shutdown
[04:37] <Hobbsee> jdong: if in doubt, blame Keybuk.  in fact, blame him anyway :P
[04:37] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: casper rewrites inittab, and, well, there's no more inittab, so autologin on the consoles don't work any more.
[04:37] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: absolutely trivial to fix, though
[04:37] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: what should we be using?  /sbin/poweroff?
[04:37] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: /sbin/shutdown
[04:37] <Hobbsee> ah
[04:38] <ogra> Hobbsee, hey, thanks for the merge :)
[04:38] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: oh, what does it do ?
[04:38] <Hobbsee> ogra: which one?
[04:38] <ogra> electricsheep
[04:38] <Hobbsee> ogra: oh.  not a problem :)
[04:38] <wasabi> good morning freedom lovers
[04:38] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: it seds the inittab.
[04:38] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: don't worry though, I'll fix it myself.
[04:39] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: yeah, I mean what change does it make?
[04:39] <Keybuk> (just out of curiousity, I didn't know you even did that)
[04:39] <ogra> oh...
[04:40] <ogra> how do i disable consoles now ? 
[04:40] <Mithrandir>     sed -i -e "s|^\([^:] *:[^:] *:[^:] *\):.*getty.*\<\(tty[0-9] *\).*$|\1:/bin/login -f $USERNAME </dev/\2 >/dev/\2 2>\&1|" /root/etc/inittab
[04:40] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: oh, I see! :p
[04:40] <jdong> my... god... :)
[04:40] <jdong> duh
[04:40] <Keybuk> yeah, just sed the getty files :p
[04:40] <jdong> why didn't I think of that :P
[04:40] <Keybuk> ogra: "disable" ?
[04:41] <ogra> Keybuk, in ltsp i need only one console ... and want an option to even disable that one in the future 
[04:41] <Keybuk> ogra: you futz the filesystem, rather than adjust things in the packages, yes?
[04:41] <ogra> i was planning to sed thrugh inittab during the chroot creation 
[04:42] <Keybuk> ok
[04:42] <Keybuk> easy then
[04:42] <Keybuk> rm /etc/event.d/tty[2-6] 
[04:42] <ogra> ah, cool !!
[04:43] <Keybuk> don't rm tty1 though, you'll upset upstart :p
[04:43] <ogra> ok
[04:43] <ogra> but that saves 500k-1M per tty :)
[04:43] <Keybuk> if you want to replace it with tty, you'll need to replace it with *something*
[04:43] <Keybuk> upstart gets grumpy if there are no jobs running
[04:44] <Keybuk> so if you remove tty1, you either need to also remove sulogin
[04:44] <ogra> well, i can live with one ... even though its useless to have with no user account 
[04:44] <Keybuk> or replace it with something else
[04:44] <Keybuk> otherwise upstart will just start a /bin/sh on /dev/console :p
[04:44] <ogra> heh
[04:45] <Keybuk> you may not mind it doing that, of course
[04:45] <Keybuk> does remind me that if you rm /
[04:45] <ogra> well, i dont disable console switching so having a open /bin/sh ....
[04:45] <Keybuk> rm /etc/event.d/tty... it should immediately kill the ttys :p
[04:47] <Keybuk> LarstiQ: oh?
[04:49] <LarstiQ> Keybuk: for some reason my machine froze in the middle of an upgrade
[04:49] <LarstiQ> Keybuk: so on reboot it wasn't really functional
[04:50] <Keybuk> LarstiQ: odd
[04:50] <LarstiQ> Keybuk: now it all works again, thanks to a breezy live cd :)
[05:09] <Tonio_> who should I poke for python 2.5 related issues ?
[05:09] <Tonio_> we have a problem to build kde apps with python 2.5
[05:21] <Kamion> Tonio_: doko
[05:22] <Tonio_> Kamion: thanks :)
[06:02] <Kamion> smurf: would you mind if I uploaded keymapper to Debian at some point?
[06:03] <Kamion> I'd really like to start getting rid of some of the big complicated diffs connected to that that we've been carrying. :-)
[06:44] <smurf> Kamion: no problem
[06:48] <koke> btw, it seems ubiquity doesn't detect correctly the newworld bootstrap partitions
[08:09] <bluefoxicy> Has anyone considered Blender for a UVF exception?
[08:10] <bluefoxicy> Their versioning scheme is bull shit.
[08:10] <bluefoxicy> http://www.blender.org/cms/Blender_2_42.727.0.html
[08:10] <bluefoxicy> THIS is what's new in 2.42 that wasn't in 2.41, what the hell?  I would have called that 3.0
[08:11] <ogra> bluefoxicy, afaik lfittl wanted to care for it ... t just moved to universe recently
[08:12] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  it says it's in main here, this must be really recent.
[08:13] <tseng> the source is in main
[08:13] <Nafallo> the binary aswell
[08:14] <Nafallo> apt-cache madison blender
[08:15] <ogra> right, so its not demoted yet
[08:15] <ogra> we cant upgrad eit in main
[08:15] <ogra> it has a hard dependency on ffmpeg
[08:16] <ogra> (the new version)
[08:16] <bluefoxicy> thought not.  Was worth a shot.
[08:19] <ogra> bluefoxicy, Nafallo, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/anastacia.txt its listed for demotion ...
[08:19] <bluefoxicy> ah ok.
[08:19] <Nafallo> but it's not there yet :-)
[08:20] <bluefoxicy> It doesn't matter, I'm not using it
[08:20] <bluefoxicy> I'm just trying to lure a Mephis user over ;)
[08:21] <bluefoxicy> (originally I was just going to say 2.41 and 2.42 were basically equivalent but the release notes say there's significant UI changes and new features, which is a WTF)
[08:23] <bluefoxicy> "A lot of work has been done to improve the non-linear video editor in Blender. The highlights include a much better memory management (edit up to hours near-real time) and for Linux users, FFMPEG was added for a wide range of video/audio codecs."
[08:24] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  found the dependency on ffmpeg ;)
[08:24] <ogra> heh
[08:25] <bluefoxicy> Personally I would have used gstreamer (gstreamer has an ffmpeg plug-in!) and helped with the porting effort if I wanted a wide range of video/audio codec support
[08:25] <bluefoxicy> anyway, back to other useful things.
[08:45] <Kamion> mbiebl: console-tools provides programs that console-setup uses to do its job; console-setup is a higher-level tool
[08:45] <Kamion> s/tool$/system/
[08:46] <Kamion> mbiebl: note how console-setup depends on console-tools
[08:46] <mbiebl> Ok.
[08:46] <Kamion> mbiebl: the redundancy is not between console-tools and console-setup, but between console-data and console-setup; however I haven't yet disentangled enough bits to be sure that it's safe to take out console-data, so for the meantime it doesn't do too much harm to leave them both there
[08:47] <Kamion> oh, heh, console-setup only recommends console-tools - but you get the idea
[08:47] <mbiebl> Still I have the prob, that somehow the console-setup script is not executed.
[08:47] <Kamion> you don't really want to have it without kbd or console-tools, though, as you wouldn't be able to load keymaps
[08:47] <mbiebl> during startup.
[08:48] <Kamion> mbiebl: could you rephrase that in a more verbose way?
[08:48] <Kamion> there is no script called "console-setup"
[08:48] <mbiebl> I have to call setupcon manually after logging in on the console.
[08:48] <Kamion> so I need to know what your actual problem is. :)
[08:48] <Kamion> OK.
[08:48] <mbiebl> S49console-setup doesn't do it's job ;-)
[08:49] <Kamion> what happens if you run 'sudo /etc/init.d/console-setup start' by hand?
[08:49] <Kamion> from a console, not X
[08:49] <mbiebl> Then it works.
[08:49] <mbiebl> I get the nice looking terminus font and the german UTF-8 keyboard layout.
[08:49] <Kamion> do you have /usr and/or /var mounted separately from /?
[08:50] <mbiebl> no
[08:50] <Kamion> (shouldn't make any difference anyway - console-setup comes after mountall)
[08:50] <Kamion> Do you have upstart-logd installed?
[08:50] <mbiebl> /var/log has this message: Sep 10 20:29:13 rcS: stty: standard input: Invalid argument
[08:50] <mbiebl> Guess this is the root of the problem.
[08:50] <Kamion> oh, I noticed that myself, hadn't tracked down what script it was from yet
[08:51] <Kamion> console-setup doesn't call stty directly though
[08:52] <mbiebl> Well, the console-setup init script should output "Setting up console font and keymap..."
[08:52] <mbiebl> But I don't have this message in the /var/log/boot
[08:52] <mbiebl> Only the above error mesasge
[08:53] <Kamion> yeah, me neither now you mention it
[08:53] <Kamion> ok, since this is something I see too, it should be relatively straightforward to track down
[08:53] <Kamion> thanks for bringing it to my attention
[08:53] <mbiebl> np
[09:14] <slomo> doko: ping?
[10:01] <crimsun> Mithrandir: ping, do you mind if I merge sane-backends? [The relevant change in Debian's 1.0.18-3 addresses (the dupes) Ubuntu bugs 56317, 59141, 59390, and 59753] 
[10:03] <Mithrandir> crimsun: feel free
[10:03] <crimsun> Mithrandir: thanks
[10:03] <Kamion> crimsun: heh, I'm glad you drew my attention to that - I had just written a patch to fix that, independently
[10:03] <Kamion> I won't bother now
[10:04] <Kamion> although I think my patch was better, as it actually checked line length properly, but no matter :)
[10:09] <Keybuk> heh
[10:09] <Keybuk> that bug is increasingly annoying
[10:14] <_ion> Should i file a bug report, or is there no chance of that happening?
[10:29] <Kamion> sigh. I would like to know how the usplash bogl backend got so utterly wedgied
[10:33] <pitti> Kamion: good luck
[10:33] <Kamion> oh. oh dear. somebody entirely forgot to teach bogl-[pt] cfb.c about colour maps larger than 16
[10:33] <Kamion> I wouldn't be surprised if it were randomly widdling over its stack
[10:34] <xav> is it possible to remove anything but the core system?
[10:58] <Kamion> ooh, a usplash
[10:58] <Keybuk> heh
[10:58] <Keybuk> you sound so please
[10:58] <Keybuk> +d
[10:59] <mjg59> Kamion: On PPC?
[10:59] <Kamion> mjg59: yep
[10:59] <mjg59> With correct colours?
[10:59] <Kamion> apparently, but I'll look later
[10:59] <Kamion> want to go and play games with Kirsten now
[10:59] <mjg59> Super
[10:59] <mjg59> Can you check it in?
[10:59] <Kamion> not right now, but tonight
[10:59] <mjg59> I can simulate with vesafb for testing
[11:00] <Kamion> give me an hour or so to go and be social while K is still awak
[11:00] <Kamion> e
[11:00] <mjg59> No problem
[11:09] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hello, sorry me if I disturb. Maybe some news about ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts ? is problem solved ?
[11:09] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Nope
[11:09] <mjg59> Needs fontconfig changes
[11:09] <mjg59> I'm working on it
[11:11] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, so you don't need my or someones(who wrote some comments on malone https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts/+bug/55966 ) ?
[11:11] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55966 in ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts "ttf-bpg-georgian-fonts.conf problem." [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[11:25] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, ok. So if there is some news... I'll help you in testing.
[11:27] <desrt> you dup'd my bug in the wrong direction :p
[11:28] <mjg59> desrt: Didn't I dup the newer one to the older one?
[11:28] <desrt> you did
[11:28] <desrt> but i filed the newer one, damnit :p
[11:29] <mjg59> Learn to search the FBTS :p
[11:29] <desrt> fbts?
[11:30] <mjg59> Bug Tracking System
[11:33] <Keybuk> see, I believe the opposite
[11:33] <Keybuk> I wish people would NOT search the BTS
[11:33] <Keybuk> or, at most, file a new bug and mark it as a dup themselves
[11:33] <Keybuk> because that way, when they turn out to be wrong, I don't have one bug with two different people with two different problems
[11:34] <Keybuk> in fact, I wish it was just two ... usually it's as few as seven or more people on one bug
[11:34] <jdub> hrm
[11:34] <jdub> how good is the desktop CD for rsyncing?
[11:34] <jdub> if i start downloading edgy images now, should i get alternate or desktop?
[11:34] <Kamion> jdub: pretty good
[11:35] <Kamion> whichever you want
[11:35] <jdub> (note: tin cans and string on an island)
[11:35] <mjg59> Keybuk: In this case, two bugs with identical titles referring to identical problems on identical hardware
[11:35] <jdub> Kamion: hmm - is it certified AUSTRALIA / SOUTH AFRICA SAFE?
[11:35] <jdub> Kamion: last daily is good, or should i get knot 2?
[11:36] <mjg59> Now that it takes me about 10 minutes to download an iso /anyway/, I've stopped worrying so much about rsync
[11:36] <jdub> i need to get a new adsl modem
[11:36] <Keybuk> mjg59: *shrug* I'd still rather receive the dups than not
[11:36] <Kamion> mjg59: yep, I've checked all the colours and they're right
[11:36] <Kamion> jdub: *shrug* dunno about current daily, depends how edgily you want to live
[11:36] <Keybuk> "udev hangs for three minutes on boot"
[11:36] <jdub> Kamion: I LOVE EDGY!
[11:36] <mjg59> Kamion: Super
[11:38] <Kamion> jdub: oh, debootstrap will probably fail on current alternate daily
[11:38] <Kamion> should be fixed tomorrow
[11:40] <jdub> Kamion: i'll suck down desktop
[11:41] <jdub> thanks!
[11:41] <jdub> hopefully today i'll have new hardware to test on
[11:47] <Kamion> mjg59: ok, grab r59
[11:47] <Kamion> I'm off to bed
[11:47] <Kamion> works for me at native resolution (1280x854), 1024x768, and 800x600 with the testcard
[11:48] <Kamion> native resolution is important to test separately because in that case I made bogl not bother to change resolution
[11:52] <mjg59> Kamion: Cool
[11:54] <AlinuxOS> doko, hello, ping
[11:54] <doko> AlinuxOS: pong
[11:55] <AlinuxOS> doko, I've sent you some mails regarding Georgian OO.org package.
[11:55] <AlinuxOS> doko, do you have some news maybe ?
[11:56] <doko> AlinuxOS: not for 2.0.3, it maybe included, if we upgrade to 2.0.4
[11:56] <AlinuxOS> OOo_2.0.4-ka-GE.gsi is ready
[11:56] <AlinuxOS> ah ok
[11:57] <doko> I'll send out a mail for 2.0.4 tomorrow 
[11:57] <AlinuxOS> the latest corrected (translation correciton) www.gia.ge/zzz/OOo_2.0.4-ka-GE.rar is here.
[11:57] <doko> AlinuxOS: I would prefer just a GSI file
[11:58] <AlinuxOS> doko, ok... I's beta version...so it will be great to have Georgian OO.org in Ubuntu too..in this mode we can improve it.
[11:58] <AlinuxOS> doko, OOo_2.0.4-ka-GE.rar -- GSI is inside.
[11:58] <jdong> I don't think doko likes rar files
[11:59] <jdong> AlinuxOS: try appeasing him with a more open format ;)
[11:59] <jdong> hehe
[12:00] <AlinuxOS> jdong, thank you..doko you are right.
[12:00] <AlinuxOS> just a moment so D
[12:00] <AlinuxOS> doko, I' send you e-mail with GSI file.
[12:01] <doko> AlinuxOS: please send just a URL
[12:01] <AlinuxOS> doko, you just tell me what you need :) Alinux (dude) abides :)
[12:01] <jdong> AlinuxOS: doko is very picky :)
[12:01] <AlinuxOS> doko, ok url with GSI directly ?
[12:03] <doko> AlinuxOS: don't listen to jdong, just send what you want
[12:03] <jdong> hehe
[12:04] <jdong> doko: so are my OOo fonts gonna stop being ugly soon?
[12:04] <jdong> doko: namely bug 54776
[12:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 54776 in openoffice.org "[Edgy]  font hinting does not work with libfreetype6 v. 2.2.1" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54776
[12:05] <jdong> a patch is linked
[12:05] <AlinuxOS> doko, I'll give URL in some second ;)
[12:05] <AlinuxOS> seconds :D
[12:05] <AlinuxOS> brr
[12:06] <doko> jdong: on my list ...
[12:06] <jdong> doko: cool man, no hurry
[12:06] <jdong> I'll stop annoying you now :)