[11:57] <ddaa> Good.
[11:57] <ddaa> spiv: welcome back
[11:57] <spiv> ddaa: thanks.
[11:57] <ddaa> how was the vacation?
[11:57] <spiv> Fun.
[11:57] <spiv> Also, I have stitches in the back of my head.
[11:58] <ddaa> You finally had this neural plug implanted, eh?
[11:58] <spiv> I proved it is possible to hit yourself in the back of your head with a snowboard that's still attached to your feet.
[11:59] <ddaa> oh, yeah, it's quite feasible, those things are quite long
[11:59] <spiv> 159cm in my case :)
[12:00] <ddaa> if only  because I really cannot use a snowboard, and it's frustrating because it can do rather well with a pair of skis
[12:00] <ddaa> lifeless: SteveA: jamesh: ping
[12:00] <ddaa> MEETING STARTS
[12:00] <jamesh> knee boards aren't too bad
[12:00] <jamesh> but they work better on water than snow
[12:01] <ddaa> This is the "things with obscure names" meeting, and you all know what we are here for.
[12:01] <lifeless> hi
[12:01] <ddaa> Next meeting 2006-09-18, 10:00 UTC.
[12:01] <ddaa> mpool will be on leave.
[12:01] <ddaa>  * roll call
[12:01] <ddaa>  * production status
[12:01] <ddaa>  * advertising
[12:01] <ddaa>  * importd batch progress
[12:01] <ddaa>  * release finder
[12:01] <ddaa>  * Python import
[12:01] <ddaa>  * strategic plan
[12:01] <ddaa>  * bzr-lp features
[12:01] <ddaa>  * interesting bzr list threads
[12:01] <ddaa>  * 1.0 targets
[12:01] <ddaa>  * critical bugs
[12:01] <ddaa>  * pending sysadmin tasks
[12:01] <ddaa>  * any other business
[12:01] <ddaa> If you wish to change the time of the meeting or add/remove agenda items, say "bzzzt!".
[12:02] <ddaa> If we are short on time, the "any other business" item will be automatically, dropped. So if you ''want'' to discuss something more, speak up now.
[12:02] <SteveA> hi
[12:02] <ddaa> == Roll call ==
[12:02] <ddaa> mpool is on leave until September 19th.
[12:02] <SteveA> please add "meeting in vilnius"
[12:02] <ddaa> SteveA: ok
[12:03] <ddaa> Everybody else has said hello already, so let's move on.
[12:03] <ddaa> == Prodution status ==
[12:03] <ddaa> Nothing to report.
[12:03] <ddaa> That was easy.
[12:04] <ddaa> spiv: it looks like things do not tend to crash and burn while _you_ are away
[12:04] <spiv> Except me ;)
[12:04] <ddaa> == Advertising ==
[12:04] <ddaa> Last meeting actions:
[12:04] <ddaa>  * spiv: blog about similarities between SVN and bzr checkouts, in relation to Launchpad.
[12:04] <ddaa>  * ddaa: when rolled out, to blog about branch UI improvements.
[12:04] <ddaa>  * unassigned: when rolled out, blog about --create-prefix not being needed anymore.
[12:04] <ddaa>  * ddaa: link to existing launchpad-bazaar blog entries from help.launchpad.net, and link from the front page.
[12:04] <ddaa> I did the latter: Blog entries linked from https://help.launchpad.net/BazaarLinks.
[12:05] <jamesh> I did an entry about the third
[12:05] <ddaa> I'm not sure it's worth blogging about about branch UI improvement since jamesh already mentioned them.
[12:05] <ddaa> spiv: still looking forward to reading your stuff.
[12:06] <lifeless> this week is possibly not the week for that for spiv
[12:06] <lifeless> release freeze is in 1 week
[12:06] <ddaa> No hurry.
[12:06] <ddaa> I can nag again next week.
[12:06] <SteveA> oh, there was something from last week.  ddaa, please add to agenda "things to do before you go on leave"
[12:07] <ddaa> SteveA: ack
[12:07] <spiv> Yeah, nag me again next week please.
[12:07] <ddaa> So I'll drop all actions except for spiv's one.
[12:08] <ddaa> == Importd batch progress ==
[12:08] <ddaa> Last meeting actions:
[12:08] <ddaa>  * ddaa: sort out what to do with BatchProgress with lifeless and mpool
[12:08] <ddaa> I started that discussion. Lifeless suggests leaving the code in Launchpad, I still do not know how to ensure the provided API stays in sync with what bzrlib actually use.
[12:09] <ddaa> lifeless: can you help me on that this week?
[12:09] <SteveA> jamesh: what's the URL of your blog entry?
[12:09] <lifeless> ddaa: probably not. Next week sure.
[12:09] <jamesh> SteveA: http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/09/06/0
[12:09] <ddaa> SteveA: it's on https://help.launchpad.net/BazaarLinks
[12:09] <jamesh> it was just a short one
[12:09] <SteveA> ddaa: a test perhaps?
[12:09] <SteveA> a test in launchpad that checks that the API works
[12:09] <ddaa> SteveA: the problem is keeping those tests in sync with bzrlib, while it's not part of bzr
[12:10] <SteveA> I don't see that as a problem
[12:10] <ddaa> lifeless: okay, I can live with that delta in production for a while, if SteveA is happy with me doing that.
[12:10] <SteveA> the tests will fail if they get out of sync, surely?
[12:11] <SteveA> and so the test says "hello.  API not in sync.  do the work to make it in sync"
[12:11] <lifeless> can we move on - no actions will be taken on that until next week regardless
[12:11] <ddaa> SteveA: talk about that later, I think it more tricky than you appear to think.
[12:11] <ddaa> == Release finder ==
[12:11] <ddaa>  * jamesh: report on PRF progress.
[12:12] <jamesh> My fixes went in last week.  Last I checked, PRF was still running today and hadn't crashed
[12:12] <lifeless> sweet
[12:13] <SteveA> product release finder?
[12:13] <lifeless> 2 years after inception and it will be deployable
[12:13] <jamesh> since it is an initial run, it has to do a fair bit of work and downloads
[12:13] <lifeless> product release finder
[12:13] <SteveA> thanks
[12:13] <lifeless> ddaa: PLEASE stop abbreviating ithis
[12:13] <ddaa> okay, then "release finder"
[12:14] <lifeless> product release finder
[12:14] <lifeless> we've had long threads about this
[12:14] <jamesh> while it hasn't been run in production, it will make the staging nightly.sh quite slow since it will essentially be doing a first run every night
[12:14] <ddaa> we still disagree
[12:14] <SteveA> it's fine to abbreviate provided the first time you introduce it in a meeting or a text you say: ... the Product Release Finder (PRF)
[12:14] <SteveA> then all is clear
[12:14] <lifeless> ddaa: currently you have been outvoted, its not 'me vs you' - can you at least go with the majority and have the disagreement as a separate discussion 
[12:15] <ddaa> SteveA: okay
[12:15] <ddaa> lifeless: the first person to abbreviate it in IRC was not me.
[12:15] <jamesh> So if we are happy with the results, I think we should do at least one run in production
[12:15] <jamesh> so that we'll be seeing the incremental runtime of the program
[12:15] <lifeless> jamesh: if it passes successfully, lets get a report of the productname : version : tarballs it found
[12:16] <lifeless> jamesh: in tabular form. that will be easy to sanity check
[12:16] <jamesh> okay
[12:16] <lifeless> in fact, productname : series : version : tarball
[12:16] <ddaa> sounds good, though I think something that people will ask very soon after will be ability to delete releases
[12:16] <jamesh> ddaa: and the answer will be "no" :)
[12:17] <ddaa> I think that's a bad answere to give users.
[12:17] <jamesh> they might ask if they can fix the release dates though
[12:18] <ddaa> bah... we could have a discussion about that, either users will make my point soon enough, or it's not worth the time, so I'll shut ip.
[12:18] <ddaa> jamesh: good news, thank you
[12:18] <ddaa> == Python import ==
[12:18] <ddaa> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/56360
[12:18] <ddaa>  * ddaa: report on Python import progress
[12:18] <ddaa> The resolver errors were fixed. The Python import is now blocked on what appears to be a bzr bug in Testament.as_text_lines when file names contain non-ascii chars.
[12:19] <ddaa> More details: At the revision of the failure, the svn repo adds files like "/python/trunk/Mac/Contrib/PyIDE-src/Scripts/Hack/Remove .pyc files". In Testament.as_text_lines, the expression [line.encode('utf-8') for line in r]  raises UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc2 in position 74: ordinal not in range(128).
[12:19] <SteveA> I think that's from ancient history
[12:19] <lifeless> ddaa: is there a bug files for that ?
[12:19] <ddaa> IOW, it's currently blocked on getting a more recent bzr in rocketfuel
[12:19] <SteveA> I remember we saw something like that when we tried importing python with tla or baz
[12:19] <lifeless> ddaa: I'm not sure that this bug is fixed in bzr.dev.
[12:19] <lifeless> SteveA: not the same issue, please dont be distracted by it
[12:20] <SteveA> ok
[12:20] <lifeless> ddaa: can you please verify it is fixed by 0.10 ?
[12:20] <ddaa> lifeless: I can run a smoke test to check.
[12:20] <SteveA> from looking at the code, looks like "line" is accidentally ascii, then gets implicitly decoded to unicode in order to run .encode() on it
[12:20] <ddaa> ACTION: ddaa to try reproducing this bug with bzr 0.10
[12:20] <ddaa> and bzr.dev too
[12:20] <lifeless> ddaa: thank you
[12:21] <ddaa> moving on
[12:21] <ddaa> == strategic plan ==
[12:21] <ddaa>  * SteveA, ddaa, lifeless, jamesh: asked to review 32/Bazaar.
[12:22] <ddaa> I think I did (though I do not remember for sure)
[12:22] <jamesh> I haven't sent him comments yet
[12:22] <ddaa> spiv: I think the same applies to you.
[12:22] <lifeless> ddaa: I already reviewed it as it was written
[12:22] <ddaa> ok
[12:23] <spiv> I read it, but I don't have any comments to make.
[12:23] <ddaa> SteveA: ?
[12:24] <SteveA> not done yet
[12:24] <lifeless> fun https://features.launchpad.net/products/bzr/+spec/bundle-piping
[12:24] <ddaa> okay, no big rush, but jamesh and SteveA please make mpool happy before he comes back.
[12:24] <ddaa> something like 9 days from now
[12:25] <ddaa> == bzr-lp features ==
[12:25] <ddaa>  * mpool: report on progress for bzr-lp features
[12:25] <ddaa> mpool is on leave
[12:25] <ddaa> does somebody want to speak for him?
[12:25] <lifeless> nope
[12:25] <lifeless> hurh hurh hurh
[12:25] <jamesh> is that the lp:// URL stuff, or something else?
[12:25] <ddaa> jamesh: both
[12:25] <lifeless> theres a collection of stuff
[12:25] <lifeless> which is all moving along piecemeal
[12:26] <ddaa> as is this meeting
[12:26] <ddaa> == Interesting bzr list threads ==
[12:26] <ddaa> After discussion with SteveA about the difficulty of keeping up with the bzr mailing list to stay updated about interesting developments in the bzr community, I would like to ask the fine folks here to point me to "interesting" threads that happened in the past week.
[12:26] <ddaa> My definition of interesting here is:
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Design discussions
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Discussion of new/future bzr features
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Release management decisions
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Discussions providing interesting insights into the needs of users
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Anything related to Launchpad
[12:26] <ddaa> That explicitly excludes "noise" like:
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Simple code review
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Discussion of internal implementation choices
[12:26] <ddaa>  * Trivial user support
[12:26] <lifeless> uhm
[12:26] <jamesh> I've been pushing the working tree revision properties stuff through, which is a prerequisite for the AutomaticBugBranchLinks spec
[12:27] <lifeless> wow, I have no idea how to generate that list trivially
[12:27] <ddaa> jamesh: seen that, looks like good idea IMO
[12:27] <lifeless> RM I've nothing to report on
[12:27] <lifeless> nothing major has changed in the design philosophy
[12:27] <ddaa> It's a bit of an experiment, but maybe guys here could take some notes with pertinent keywords (e.g. words in the subject of the emails)
[12:27] <lifeless> new features have been creeping into 0.11 at quite a reasonable pace
[12:28] <ddaa> Anyway, since it's the first time you read of that, let's just see if that gives something useful for next week's meeting.
[12:29] <ddaa> == Things to do before you go on leave ==
[12:29] <ddaa> SteveA: the stage is yours
[12:29] <SteveA> thanks
[12:29] <SteveA> so, iirc, there were some loose ends left around that we found out about in this meeting after spiv went on vacation
[12:30] <SteveA> can anyone remember the details?
[12:30] <lifeless> yes
[12:30] <lifeless> push all branches
[12:30] <ddaa> something about spiv branches not being pushed
[12:30] <lifeless> send an email saying where its at
[12:30] <SteveA> I'm going to put up a standard policy for "things to do before you go on vacation" -- a checklist
[12:30] <SteveA> for the launchpad team
[12:30] <SteveA> and I want to make sure it will cover the situation we had a short while ago
[12:30] <SteveA> ok
[12:30] <SteveA> so
[12:31] <SteveA>  - push all branches
[12:31] <spiv> A checklist would be really handy.
[12:31] <SteveA>  - send an email about ongoing / outstanding issues
[12:31] <SteveA>   including details of branches in progress
[12:31] <lifeless> right, the situation was : Martin and I wanted to move the smart server forward, but could not because about 2 days work was not pushed
[12:31] <SteveA> the idea being that others can continue where you left off
[12:32] <lifeless> in this particular case, there is a bunch of uncommitted reorganisation going on which is fine - but it would have been good to have an rsync'd copy of that available
[12:32] <SteveA> spiv: in this case, did it occur to you to do this kind of thing as you were preparing to leave on vacation?  I'm wondering how best to remind people
[12:32] <SteveA> even if we have a checklist, it needs to be used
[12:34] <spiv> I find before a holiday I tend to go "oh oops, I need to make sure I have StaffCalendar updated, make sure I have nothing still assigned in PendingReviews, oh I better make sure I have a holiday notice on my review queue, while I'm on the wiki fill in apologies for meetings...."
[12:34] <SteveA> ah, so more things for the checklist
[12:34] <SteveA> particularly for reviewers
[12:35] <ddaa> SteveA: if the checklist includes some sort of report, it should be pretty easy to check for people who just completely forget.
[12:35] <spiv> With the pushing in this case, I usually push work regularly, but as lifeless points out there was a lot of uncommitted state due to the nature of the work at that point.
[12:35] <lifeless> reviewers need to put their leave in the reviews page
[12:35] <lifeless> having things assigned in the reviews page is ok
[12:35] <SteveA> ok
[12:35] <lifeless> I will reassign if you put a 'I'm on leave' marker there - but an email to me would help
[12:35] <SteveA> thanks for talking through this
[12:36] <SteveA> I'll formulate a launchpad policy for this
[12:36] <SteveA> ddaa: thanks, done
[12:36] <ddaa> ACTION: SteveA to increase the bureaucracy of the Lauchpad team
[12:36] <ddaa> ;)
[12:36] <ddaa> == Meeting in Vilnius ==
[12:36] <ddaa> SteveA: ?
[12:36] <SteveA> tim penhey is joining us soon
[12:36] <lifeless> cool
[12:36] <SteveA> he'll report to mpool, work from NZ
[12:37] <ddaa> That's cool!
[12:37] <ddaa> ?
[12:37] <SteveA> and he may stop over in sydney on his way to dunedin
[12:37] <ddaa> Report to mpool?
[12:37] <SteveA> or however you spell dunedin
[12:37] <lifeless> he was a couple o years ahead of me at uni, small world syndrome
[12:37] <SteveA> mpool will be taking a greater interest in how launchpad is used with bzr, once 1.0 is out
[12:37] <SteveA> and, considering timezones too, this is a natural thing
[12:38] <ddaa> SteveA: does that mean I'll be reporting to mpool too?
[12:38] <SteveA> no
[12:38] <SteveA> you'll stay reporting to me
[12:38] <SteveA> and then you and tim will work together a lot
[12:38] <SteveA> we'll see how it goes
[12:38] <ddaa> Weird to have a pair with two different line managers.
[12:38] <SteveA> not so weird
[12:38] <lifeless> ddaa: I think locality of time zone is quite important
[12:38] <SteveA> I sometimes coordinate with mdz a lot
[12:38] <SteveA> but also, mpool and I do talk a lot
[12:39] <lifeless> one of things that we had difficulty with was effective communication
[12:39] <SteveA> and we talk with each other a lot too :-)
[12:39] <lifeless> due to us being effectivelyt 12 hours out
[12:39] <ddaa> Makes sense, after all.
[12:39] <ddaa> So, what about Vilnius?
[12:40] <SteveA> so, tim and I have talked about him coming to vilnius to get an introduction to bzr in launchpad
[12:40] <SteveA> first week of october is one set of dates possible
[12:40] <SteveA> ddaa: woiuld you be able to come then too?
[12:40] <ddaa> I do not have anything specific planned.
[12:40] <SteveA> another possibility is 2nd week of october
[12:40] <ddaa> So, provisionally, yes.
[12:40] <SteveA> and that might work out better for me, as host
[12:40] <SteveA> I'll know after wednesday
[12:41] <SteveA> ddaa: is either week okay with you?
[12:41] <jamesh> mbp also posted about https://wiki.canonical.com/BazaarSprintSydney2006 last week
[12:41] <ddaa> as far as I recall, yes. I'll start preparing Ewa to it.
[12:41] <jamesh> is any coordination with that needed?
[12:41] <lifeless> should not be
[12:42] <lifeless> separate topics, codebases, agendas
[12:42] <ddaa> lifeless++
[12:42] <SteveA> jamesh: have you considered going to the sydney sprint?
[12:43] <jamesh> SteveA: if it would be useful for me to go, then sure.
[12:43] <lifeless> would you like to come ?
[12:44] <lifeless> we want to be doing bzr code primarily during that time
[12:44] <lifeless> smart server, dirstate, performance
[12:44] <SteveA> I see various lp things on the agenda
[12:44] <SteveA> if the lp things will be in one half of the week, james could go for that
[12:44] <lifeless> its 2 weeks long
[12:45] <SteveA> s/week/weeks/
[12:45] <jamesh> the LP integration stuff looks interesting, and I've been doing a bit of work on that.  It would be interesting to see what the bzr folks think of our plans
[12:45] <SteveA> anyway, doesn't need to be deicided in this meeting
[12:45] <lifeless> there is LP stuff there
[12:45] <SteveA> jamesh: one week on the lp/bzr stuff in that meeting is fine with me
[12:46] <SteveA> sort it out with lifeless and mpool
[12:46] <lifeless> because bzr/lp is the strategic overview
[12:46] <lifeless> but I fully expect most of the time to be the detail of getting bzr to win vs hg
[12:47] <jamesh> Launchpad as a compliment to Bazaar could definitely help there ...
[12:47] <lifeless> yup
[12:47] <SteveA> ddaa: anything else on the agenda?
[12:47] <ddaa> that has been the plan for like... 11 months now?
[12:47] <ddaa> == 1.0 targets ==
[12:47] <ddaa> [skipping] 
[12:48] <ddaa> == Critical bugs ==
[12:48] <ddaa> Good news, worth showing off.
[12:48] <ddaa> https://launchpad.net/bugs/31308 Cannot set branch associated to a product series.
[12:48] <ddaa>  * Last meeting jamesh agreed to work on that. Jamesh, progress?
[12:48] <lifeless> its in staging
[12:48] <ddaa> https://launchpad.net/bugs/37897 renaming project, product or series breaks vcs imports. Fix released.
[12:48] <ddaa>  * ddaa: report on deployment
[12:48] <ddaa> https://launchpad.net/bugs/51130 cannot use +admin on a branch I own. Fix released.
[12:48] <jamesh> I tried it out for some products I own, and it works nicely
[12:48] <ddaa> importd-publish-source was deployed, squashing https://launchpad.net/bugs/37897. A few imports did not have a cscvs working tree and failed the transition:
[12:48] <ddaa>  * silo (now on git), console-data (svn branch renamed), xrestop (now on git), libmusicbrainz and libtunepimp (now on svn). All these are obsolete and unfixable and are now STOPPED.
[12:48] <ddaa>  * exe (https://launchpad.net/products/exe/trunk) also failed: their svn repo appears offline, the download instructions have not been updated, and I had no reply when asking on IRC (#exe on freenode). Marked the import STOPPED by lack of information needed to fix it.
[12:49] <lifeless> theres a report on lp-users of a CVS repo that needs the host changed in lp
[12:49] <ddaa> In other words, all our criticals will be fixed by the next rollou.
[12:49] <ddaa> lifeless: thanks, will do today.
[12:50] <ddaa> MEETING CLOSED
[12:50] <ddaa> Sorry for the abrupt end, be we are overdue already.
[12:51] <SteveA> ddaa: I'd like a voice call with you today.
[12:51] <ddaa> sorry for forgetting to report last week
[12:51] <ddaa> I was a bad boy.
[12:51] <ddaa> What time would you like to voice?
[12:53] <ddaa> A bit later in the afternoon would be nice, say between 1400 and 1600 UTC?
[12:53] <SteveA> 1600 is way too late
[12:53] <SteveA> 1400 is possible.  earlier is better for me
[12:54] <ddaa> I'm concerned about coordinating lunch with Ewa, she's not well at all at the moment.
[12:54] <ddaa> And out of the house right now.
[12:55] <ddaa> SteveA: we can have voice in 30 mins if you want.
[12:55] <ddaa> Just time for me to have a little break.
[12:56] <SteveA> that's a very good time for me.  thanks
[12:56] <SteveA> 30 mins past the next hour
[12:56] <ddaa> That's 1130 UTC
[12:56] <SteveA> lifeless: got time for a quick phone call?
[12:57] <lifeless> SteveA: after the review meeting
[12:57] <SteveA> which is in 2 mins?
[12:57] <lifeless> yes
[12:57] <SteveA> ok, thanks