[08:10] <fabbione> @schedule rome
[08:10] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 20 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 22:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 29 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[11:16] <digitalmouse> greetings programs! :)
[11:30] <digitalmouse> don't want to 'underscore' your importance, Hobbsee?  :P
[11:30] <Hobbsee> digitalmouse: :P  i've been fighting with edgy, and lost, so went back to dapper until i get home
[11:32] <digitalmouse> ah
[11:34] <digitalmouse> i use to like bleeding edge distros, but found out i spent more time tinkering with them then actually getting work done.  rural economics (paying bills, feeding mouth) took precedence, so i'm content with kubuntu 6.06 release+updates.
[11:34] <digitalmouse> i'll leave the tinkering to you :)
[11:35] <Hobbsee> heh
[11:35] <Hobbsee> it worked when i left the house!
[11:35] <digitalmouse> the sad thing about ubuntu support is that there is mostly no need for it!  i've installed/spread ubuntu on roughly 15-20 machines now (desktop and server roles) and only one lady had trouble.  the rest never called back (except with praise)
[11:36] <digitalmouse> i have to support windows to pay the bills :p
[11:36] <Hobbsee> lol
[11:36] <Hobbsee> yeah
[11:36] <Hobbsee> --> #ubuntu-offtopic
[11:42] <DBO> @now Detroit
[11:42] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/Detroit: September 20 2006, 05:42:47 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 2 hours 17 minutes
[01:22] <rodarvus> @now Sao_Paulo
[01:22] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/Sao_Paulo: September 20 2006, 08:22:22 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 37 minutes
[01:30] <juliux> @schedule
[01:30] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 20 Sep 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Sep 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[02:00] <RichEd> hello ... back in 2 mins ...
[02:00] <willvdl> Present Sgt. Major!
[02:01] <pips1> here
[02:04] <ogra> ok, a very very quick update that really swallows 90% of what i'd like to say ... 
[02:04] <RichEd> hello all ... thanks for joining us
[02:04] <juliux> hi ogra RichEd 
[02:04] <RichEd> ogra will give us a quick tech update on:
[02:04] <ogra> i was at the ltsp hackfest as some of you might know (just fell out of the plane 2h ago ...)
[02:04] <RichEd> 1)  the LTSP hack fest
[02:04] <RichEd> 2) freeze testing
[02:05] <ogra> ok
[02:05] <willvdl> it's raining ogras!
[02:05] <ogra> on the hackfest (apart from fixing upstream stuff in ltsp) we tackled the following bugs:
[02:05] <ogra> localdev should work 100% including floppies with my next upload 
[02:06] <ogra> its very well tested ;)
[02:06] <pips1> :-)
[02:06] <rodarvus> \o/
[02:06] <willvdl> woop
[02:06] <ogra> etherboot should already work agically out of the box ...
[02:06] <ogra> *magically
[02:06] <ogra> since my last upload...
[02:06] <ogra> so no user has to care anymore about tech stuff here ...
[02:06] <ogra> just plug in a client and press the power button
[02:07] <ogra> *any* client
[02:07] <ogra> i'm now getting on the printer stuff ...
[02:07] <ogra> so there is only one thing we dont provide that ltsp 4.2 does
[02:07] <ogra> which is rdesktop (windows terminal server client) support
[02:08] <ogra> i have patches here for that as well, but they are to inrusive to go into edgy
[02:08] <ogra> one thing on the cd installer is missing, i'll have to file a bug for Kamion about that i didnt yet ...
[02:09] <ogra> (removing the question for the IP address of the 1st NIC in the installer and make it use dhcp again)
[02:10] <ogra> the CD should so far be able to install an out of the box ltsp now that nobody needs to touch manualy ...
[02:10] <ogra> (if you have two NICs which will be our default requirement for the defaul (server) install from now on)
[02:11] <ogra> if you have one or more than two, it will tell you what to do in the installer itself
[02:11] <highvoltage> hi!
[02:11] <ogra> so we dont need to point users to the gettingstarted page anymore ;)
[02:11] <RichEd> hey highvoltage 
[02:12] <ogra> stuff from there should be already set after the first reboot 
[02:12] <pips1> so the edubuntu terminal server will detect any dhcp server that is present somewhere in the network?
[02:12] <ogra> (indeed its still a good doc, but no requirement anymore)
[02:12] <ogra> pips1, no
[02:13] <highvoltage> ogra: wow, that's great! edubuntu ltsp has come so far.
[02:13] <ogra> the first NIC will operate automatically in client mode for an existing dhcp server
[02:13] <ogra> the second NIC will operate in server mode for ltsp ...
[02:13] <pips1> ic
[02:14] <ogra> since the knot3+1day iso we also have the defaults set for ltsp ...
[02:14] <ogra> localdev, network swap, 16bit colors are automatically on
[02:15] <ogra> network swap by default gets us now  into the position to tighten the minimal requirements for clients to 32M
[02:15] <ogra> ;)
[02:15] <willvdl> cool. how efficient is the network swap?
[02:16] <ogra> oh i forgot tha sound is on by default as well
[02:16] <ogra> for now we only add 32M fixed size files 
[02:16] <TeePOG> g'day
[02:16] <ogra> i doubt i can increase that for edgy (was planning to do so this week until i realized that freeze is tomorrow)
[02:17] <highvoltage> for pure thin clients 32MB is plenty
[02:17] <ogra> nbd works in a way that we can just create swap devices over and over ....
[02:17] <ogra> so edgy+1 will have as much swap as you want by creating nbd devices of 32M size ...
[02:18] <ogra> (automatically)
[02:18] <ogra> i actually plan to detect memsize there and dynamically create swap devices
[02:18] <highvoltage> sounds like a spec :)
[02:18] <pips1> NBD = non block device ?
[02:18] <ogra> which puts the server disk reqs a bit higher ...
[02:19] <ogra> N==network
[02:19] <pips1> ta
[02:19] <ogra> highvoltage, well, its a simple 5 line enhancement to the existing code
[02:19] <ogra> i doubt that needs a spec
[02:20] <ogra> its just further automation
[02:20] <highvoltage> cool
[02:20] <ogra> printers wil work the ltsp.org way in edgy ...
[02:20] <ogra> *that* will need a spec for edgy+1
[02:20] <rodarvus> what is the ltsp.org way?
[02:21] <ogra> your printer needs to be present/attached before boot and you need to add options in lts.conf
[02:21] <ogra> for edgy+1 i want to hand it over to uedv ...
[02:21] <ogra> *udev
[02:21] <rodarvus> *nods*
[02:22] <ogra> that means, if you plug in an usb or parallel printer it will just show up as available in your session
[02:22] <cbx33> sorry I'm late
[02:22] <ogra> (wont work for serial printers though)
[02:22] <cbx33> work commitments
[02:22] <ogra> i.e. if you use a cash termonal
[02:22] <ogra> *terminal
[02:23] <ogra> but for that we can still offer lts.conf ... its a special HW setup anyway
[02:24] <ogra> freeze testing is documented on https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuKnot3LTSPTesting
[02:24] <ogra> the steps there should all work with the current isos post knot3
[02:24] <ogra> (dailies)
[02:25] <cbx33> nice ;)
[02:25] <pips1> so, in edgy, usb and parallel printers need to be attached before the terminal server starts, righty?
[02:25] <ogra> i didnt test all changes we made during the hackfest on all hardware i have here ...
[02:26] <ogra> so thats what i'll do now ... since i onyl have 24h left for it ... i'll not be responsive after the meeting
[02:26] <cbx33> ogra: I'd better get my patch for gconf ready too
[02:26] <ogra> pips1, right, and they need to be added to the lts.conf according to the ltsp.org docs 
[02:26] <ogra> (i'll merge that oin the wiki before release)
[02:26] <ogra> cbx33, ??
[02:26] <pips1> ogra, is there any particular testing we can help you with? 
[02:27] <cbx33> ogra: there is a little patch needed for the default /etc/gconf/2/path file
[02:27] <ogra> pips1, download the dailies form tomorrow on and follow the wikipage
[02:27] <pips1> oki
[02:28] <ogra> cbx33, scp-client needs to gracefully die if LTSP_CLIENT isnt set, else it runs on all sessions, even locally
[02:28] <cbx33> yes
[02:28] <cbx33> want a patch for that?
[02:28] <ogra> and it should die with gnome-session (it seems to not do that atm)
[02:28] <cbx33> does this have to be before beta freeze?
[02:28] <ogra> that would be nice
[02:28] <cbx33> oh, it should do...
[02:29] <ogra> well, *i* personally would consider it an RC bug... but mdz has the last word on that, so having it in before freeze would be nicer
[02:29] <cbx33> I'll do my bese
[02:29] <cbx33> *t
[02:30] <ogra> cbx33, did you see my artwork comments in #edubuntu ?
[02:30] <cbx33> yes
[02:30] <ogra> ok
[02:30] <cbx33> did you run png crush on them?
[02:31] <ogra> are you sure that works with indexed pngs and with usplash ? 
[02:31] <cbx33> hmm....no I'm not 
[02:31] <cbx33> :(
[02:31] <ogra> me neither 
[02:31] <ogra> so we need to test that
[02:31] <cbx33> ok
[02:31] <cbx33> if you want to revert to a simpler image because of those bandwidth constraints we'll have to
[02:32] <cbx33> when you said needs to be fixed....what did you mean
[02:32] <ogra> if you have a quick fix for that then yes ... if you have to put hours into designing a new one then rather turn down saturation on the ld one and lets do the pngcrush test
[02:32] <ogra> *old
[02:32] <cbx33> ok, let's turn down sat and pngcrush
[02:33] <cbx33> if that still doesn't work....we can work out something
[02:33] <ogra> ok
[02:33] <ogra> i'm not sure how freeze critical artwork is considered though
[02:33] <cbx33> ok...
[02:33] <ogra> but worst case it is freeze critical ...
[02:33] <cbx33> can we find that information out?
[02:34] <ogra> if mdz is up ...
[02:34] <ogra> in 2-3h
[02:34] <cbx33> ok
[02:34] <ogra> (i guess)
[02:35] <cbx33> did you want me to desat and pngcrush?
[02:35] <ogra> wouldbe nice ... since you have the originals of the pics :P
[02:35] <cbx33> ;P np
[02:36] <ogra> also i'd like to take the people pic you called default-bg for gdm ... couls you discuss that in the artwork part of this meeting (and put it up for the others)
[02:37] <cbx33> sure
[02:37] <cbx33> hmm....
[02:37] <cbx33> putting it up may prove difficult 
[02:37] <cbx33> I haveno acces to my server here
[02:37] <Linuturk_code> imageshack.us?
[02:37] <ogra> i'll put it on people ... dont worry
[02:38] <cbx33> thanks
[02:38] <ogra> as soon as my ltsp-build-client finished
[02:38] <ogra> (which might extend the meeting though)
[02:38] <cbx33> ogra: I'll do it don;t worry
[02:38] <cbx33> I have a workardoun
[02:38] <ogra> ok
[02:39] <ogra> thats it from my side ...
[02:39] <ogra> RichEd, here to take over ? 
[02:39] <RichEd> sure ...
[02:39] <ogra> thanks :)
[02:39] <willvdl> three cheers
[02:39] <ogra> any questions from your side wrt tech ? 
[02:39] <pips1> cheers to ogra
[02:39] <ogra> :)
[02:39] <pips1> and all other ltsp hackers :-)
[02:40] <cbx33> ogra: you rock
[02:40] <ogra> yeah
[02:40] <ogra> they helped a lot the last days :)
[02:40] <RichEd> Thanks to Oliver ... who has fixed LTSP ... and who has been up for 36 hours ... has flown back across the atlantic ... and who now works to beat the freeze.
[02:40] <ogra> sbalneav deserves a medal for learning bzr and packaging 
[02:40] <pips1> ogra, there is a 6 page article on LTSP in the newest c't magazine :-)
[02:40] <ogra> he maintains ltspfs himself now ... i'm only upload bitch for him
[02:40] <ogra> pips1, i heard so
[02:41] <ogra> didnt get around to buy one yet
[02:41] <RichEd> pips1: is there any online publishing or link to this ?
[02:41] <cbx33> ogra: http://www.progbox.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/wallpaper-generic.png
[02:41] <rodarvus> ogra, does scott plan to go through motu soon?
[02:41] <rodarvus> would be nice to have him as ubuntu-devel
[02:41] <ogra> RichEd, nope, c't doesnt publish as long as you can buy it
[02:41] <ogra> (on paper)
[02:41] <ogra> rodarvus, he's going for motu 
[02:41] <RichEd> historically LTSP was seen as a solution for low spec h/w schools solutions
[02:42] <ogra> RichEd, well, not really
[02:42] <RichEd> I'm seeing more and more debate about LTSP as being ideal for simple commercial environments.
[02:42] <ogra> it was rather for business cases 
[02:42] <ogra> right, that was its initial purpose
[02:42] <ogra> k12 brought it in the school sector
[02:42] <RichEd> I'm seeing a lot of comment on the business side now.
[02:42] <willvdl> ogra, yeah a lot of businesses use (linux) terminal clients
[02:43] <ogra> jammcq develops for health care and stuff like that ...
[02:43] <TeePOG> that's my queue... we're using ltsp in the internet cafe. Running both as standalone clients for safe websurfing, and virtual dekstops through VMWare Player's PXE boot
[02:43] <TeePOG> *desktops
[02:43] <RichEd> Maybe it's just my education background that gave me the reverse slant.
[02:43] <ogra> he didnt develop it for schools first place
[02:43] <pips1> RichEd: no, the article isn't online, only in print :-/ (BTW, c't is the major German computing magazine)
[02:44] <RichEd> guys meet TeePog :) also from South Africa
[02:44] <ogra> its from the heise editors  ... www.heise.de is also the biggest IT news site
[02:44] <ogra> hey TeePOG 
[02:44] <ogra> sorry for not ponging you the last days ...
[02:44] <RichEd> He's the person I suggested at the last meeting who may be keen to help generalise the cookbook/ handbook into an icafe version or annexure
[02:44] <TeePOG> no worries, everyone's busy
[02:44] <ogra> but i was somewhat on and off all the time
[02:45] <TeePOG> sure, i'd love that!
[02:45] <RichEd> TeePOG: the general suggestion was that we keep 1 practical version, and then have sector specific annexures
[02:45] <cbx33> ogra: what was the 2Mb file?
[02:45] <ogra> TeePOG, do you have any hints for cafe software ? i get questions about that quite often
[02:46] <RichEd> I'll move that conversation into the document meetings .. and wil broker a link.
[02:46] <ogra> cbx33, 
[02:46] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~$ ls -lh /usr/lib/usplash/edubuntu-splash.so 
[02:46] <ogra> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2,0M 2006-09-16 17:51 /usr/lib/usplash/edubuntu-splash.so
[02:46] <TeePOG> ogra: this is one sector where OSS is sadly lacking... whether Windows- or *nix-based... Mac OS X has a free management system though
[02:46] <ogra> right
[02:46] <cbx33> ogra: pngcrush took 100K off one of the files
[02:46] <cbx33> 300K -> 200K
[02:47] <RichEd> Just a comment about your question to TeePOG : this is any example of how a solution space for a sector can help people help each other
[02:47] <ogra> TeePOG, there is one horrible app (forgot its name) but thats written in delphi ...
[02:47] <ogra> (for linux though)
[02:47] <TeePOG> hey, yeah, that was from AJ Venter [the OpenLab guy]  actually
[02:47] <ogra> ok, back on topic ;)
[02:47] <RichEd> But we will keep TeePOG with us until we can find him a nice home :)
[02:47] <TeePOG> never worked here
[02:48] <RichEd> rodarvus: ping - any technica news ?
[02:48] <ogra> since icafes arent really edubuntu :)
[02:48] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:48] <juliux> hi jsgotangco 
[02:48] <RichEd> That's the debate ! edubuntu is not (all of) education and education is not (all of) edubuntu !
[02:49] <willvdl> ogra, when you call them telecentres then the definition gets thinner
[02:49] <ogra> hehe
[02:49] <cbx33> I have a little tech news....I'm try to continue the develpoment work on gallium...the Kalzium replacement.  Amaranth did some fantastic work...I'm not trying to add new featuers ;)
[02:49] <rodarvus> RichEd, no, not really
[02:49] <ogra> right
[02:49] <RichEd> Anyone else with technical updates ?
[02:49] <RichEd> sorry cbx33 - go for it
[02:49] <cbx33> Seveas: will usplash work with pngcrushed images?
[02:49] <cbx33> RichEd: that was it ;)
[02:50] <ogra> cbx33, first -> will pngcrush work with indexed images ?
[02:50] <ogra> without destroying them 
[02:50] <RichEd> Well I have one last semi-technical question myself ... more feature than technical, but closely related:
[02:51] <Seveas> cbx33, the actual source packages don't use png but C code
[02:51] <RichEd> How does someone see in one place what new features will be in the next release ... in a simple readble format ?
[02:51] <ogra> well, lets try and error that usplash thing then :)
[02:52] <ogra> RichEd, we do specs at the conference
[02:52] <ogra> they are on launchpad
[02:52] <jsgotangco> lp specs teehee
[02:52] <ogra> approved specs should be implemented in order of priority
[02:52] <RichEd> Yep. on launchpad, and then per version, and seeing what is approved.
[02:52] <ogra> right
[02:53] <ogra> whats not speeced doesnt usually get developed from us ...
[02:53] <RichEd> Is there any way we could have a short bite size overview page ... like the bullet list on the side of a shrink wrap box ?
[02:53] <rodarvus> RichEd, note that the process of defining which features are chosed/approved for the next version usually doesn't *really* starts until Edgy is basically closed
[02:53] <ogra> but might become part of the source through a meger from a third party dev
[02:53] <ogra> usually i'm subscribed to all edubuntu or ltsp related specs
[02:53] <rodarvus> we can (and should) be working internally to have a draft plan earlier
[02:54] <pips1> fyi https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs?searchtext=edubuntu
[02:54] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/ogra/+specs
[02:54] <ogra> RichEd, ^^^
[02:54] <RichEd> I know it is a moving target, but I am thinking on the PRO side ... for someone looking to see what is coming down the line.
[02:54] <rodarvus> be right back
[02:54] <willvdl> RichEd, that might be a spec for the launchpad developers
[02:54] <ogra> rodarvus, btw, could you set fully-automatic-swap-server to deferred ? 
[02:54] <RichEd> Not a hardcore techie, but say an education department decision maker who is comparing linux flavours for his decision for 2007
[02:55] <RichEd> So he can see ... oh that is due out next year .... interesting.
[02:55] <RichEd> So let me answer myself ... at the moment: No
[02:55] <willvdl> and preferably referenced on the ubuntu site?
[02:55] <ogra> next release 
[02:55] <rodarvus> back
[02:55] <rodarvus> ogra, sure, I'll do that
[02:55] <ogra> RichEd, not next year
[02:56] <ogra> rodarvus, thanks ...
[02:56] <RichEd> But if somone was was willing to summarize the launchpad, yes. (and keep up to date say weekly)
[02:56] <RichEd> Then yes ?
[02:56] <ogra> the current workaround is neat ... but should really go into the c source some point ... vagrantc agreed to work on it later
[02:57] <ogra> RichEd, as i said, we already do that via my spec page ... LP should always be up to date with the progress
[02:57] <willvdl> ogra, RichEd is suggesting a simplified version for a non-techie audience
[02:57] <ogra> mdz, keeps an eye on that during the distro-team meetings
[02:57] <RichEd> Okay ... I'll check it all out and ask focused questions next meeting. Thanks.
[02:58] <RichEd> --- technical --- any more ?
[02:58] <ogra> RichEd, we can do a "upcoming specs" link on the website or wiki that points to my speclist i guess
[02:58] <ogra> for a non techie way
[02:59] <RichEd> last comment: some of the underlying ubuntu feature changes represent an advancement, but woulod not be on your list ?
[02:59] <willvdl> I guess the ESA or handbook could contain such info
[02:59] <ogra> RichEd, not for edubuntu ... we had some arguments with mdz about that in the beginning because of the release notes 
[03:00] <cbx33> sorry guys, just had a phone call from Lisa, one of our guinea pigs is sick :(
[03:00] <cbx33> I'm back now
[03:00] <ogra> (we == JaneW and me)
[03:00] <RichEd> Okay ... close the thread. I'll draft an appraoch with Will.
[03:00] <RichEd> Tanks
[03:00] <ogra> RichEd, edubuntu release notes should only list edubuntu specific features
[03:00] <pips1> ogra: what about Edubuntu improvements that *aren't* done by you?
[03:01] <ogra> pips1, these are fine to list
[03:01] <ogra> we should just not duplicate ubuntu features in a feature list
[03:02] <RichEd> ogra: but say (as a trivial example) Ubuntu handling a new type of wireless communication device, would mean Edubuntu would as well ?
[03:02] <pips1> where do we find the comprehensive list of all edubuntu features then? in Launchpad, searching for 'Edubuntu' in the specifications (see link I posted above)?
[03:02] <ogra> RichEd, yes
[03:03] <RichEd> So for the classroom, it is a new feature if you ugrade to the newer Edubuntu
[03:03] <ogra> yes
[03:03] <ogra> ubuntu is our underlying system, so we inherit all improvements
[03:03] <RichEd> and so do our users :)
[03:04] <ogra> yeps
[03:04] <RichEd> ---- ready for documentation ---- ???
[03:04] <RichEd> anyone with input under documentation ?
[03:05] <ogra> sbalneav is currently travelling, but he expressed extreme interest in ltsp and cookbook doccing in the future
[03:05] <ogra> (at the hackfest)
[03:05] <willvdl> I've been putting some ideas around for school advocacy, but not really pure documentation
[03:06] <RichEd> willvdl: we'll do tech doc and then sales doc as next sub-section
[03:06] <RichEd> ogra: have we got an LTSP doc champion as yet ?
[03:06] <ogra> nope
[03:07] <RichEd> I've been seeing some comments that the LTSP docs are lite - today in #edubuntu  for example
[03:07] <ogra> nobody knows the code as good as me ... but i merged a lot docs from debian recently
[03:07] <willvdl> Cool. Could someone explain what exactly the purpose/aim of the handbook is? i.e. who the target audience is and what they should get from it?
[03:07] <jsgotangco> aren't those devel docs
[03:07] <highvoltage> the ltsp documentation is a bit lite :/
[03:07] <ogra> see /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/ in the recent packages for exmple
[03:08] <highvoltage> would be real nice if scott could write some stuff :)
[03:08] <RichEd> ogra ? confirm ... do we need developer documentation and user documenation or is that the same thing.
[03:08] <ogra> there is a /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/examples/qemu-ltsp for testing without thin client hardware available for example
[03:09] <ogra> RichEd, developer docs should soon be covered by ltsp.org ...
[03:09] <RichEd> (sorry by user I mean admin & install & support - not end user)
[03:09] <ogra> if we are dne with the code merge with them, scottie will update the existing docs there
[03:10] <ogra> ltsp.org has already enough docs ... they just dont apply to our implementation yet, but that will chage soon
[03:10] <RichEd> Now just to clarify my understanding and then responsibility for Edubuntu vs Ubuntu:
[03:10] <RichEd> LTSP is available for Ubuntu as an add on : right ?
[03:10] <ogra> yep
[03:10] <ogra> its on the CD
[03:10] <ogra> but not installed by default
[03:11] <ogra> edubuntu installs and configures it 
[03:11] <RichEd> Does all LTSP dev on Ubuntu originate in Edubuntu and then go upstream ? Or are there Ubuntu LTSP people ?
[03:11] <ogra> i am the ubuntu ltsp people
[03:11] <ogra> :)
[03:11] <ogra> i took over the code from matt ... as it is its orginating from ubuntu ...
[03:12] <RichEd> So, say, as a vision future of the future ... LTSP is used by iCafe's and Call Centres and Medical Centres ... extensively
[03:12] <ogra> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ltsp-convergence describes the future
[03:12] <highvoltage> RichEd: LTSP in ubuntu/edubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu is a package that gets installed. this package comes from the same source across the ubuntu derivatives
[03:12] <ogra> right
[03:12] <RichEd> thanks highvoltage : got that now ... needed to confirm my understanding
[03:13] <RichEd> Given the crystal ball : Would it still make sense that it LTSP remains an Edubuntu issue ?
[03:13] <RichEd> 1) documentation
[03:13] <RichEd> 2) support
[03:13] <jsgotangco> good question
[03:14] <ogra> no
[03:14] <ogra> its an upstream issue ...
[03:14] <jsgotangco> LTSP imo is Ubuntu's
[03:14] <jsgotangco> err upstream rather
[03:14] <RichEd> Should / Would the guy running the call centre network need to come to #edubuntu for help ?
[03:14] <jsgotangco> no!
[03:14] <jsgotangco> heavens no!
[03:14] <ogra> no, but he could 
[03:15] <willvdl> hmmm, who does a call centre call? :P
[03:15] <highvoltage> RichEd: LTSP has wide support outside of edubuntu-specific. Xubuntu also has an LTSP install option, and many people use that too, we even use it in the tuxlabs.
[03:15] <RichEd> So, should we start to lay the ground for some movement of the docs and support upstream ? The hack-fest rsults may be an excellent kicking off point, and MV may bne the place to raise it ?
[03:16] <RichEd> On the quid pro quo exchange : oliver passes over skill & training .... and they take some responsibility ?
[03:16] <RichEd> And move oliver to 2nd line to reduce his already heavy burden ?
[03:16] <ogra> the hackfest results are exactly that ;)
[03:17] <ogra> its already clearified with upstream ...
[03:17] <ogra> sbalneav wil take responsibility here ... with a little help from my side
[03:17] <RichEd> But you mean upstream to sbalneav who is not ubuntu ...
[03:17] <ogra> and as i said in the beginning he wants to contribute to the handbook as well
[03:17] <cbx33> excellent
[03:18] <ogra> sbalneav is upstrem for ltsp ;)
[03:18] <ogra> *upstream
[03:18] <ogra> together with jammcq
[03:18] <ogra> but the muecow implementation (ours) puts the burden somewhat on the distros
[03:19] <ogra> so i'm glad that sbalneav is aboard here 
[03:19] <RichEd> Yep ... but I'm speaking about the iCafe inside the Call Centre inside the Medical Centre running Ubuntu LTSP .. we need to make a route from Ubuntu LTSP support to LTSP upstream direct
[03:19] <RichEd> and not via #edubuntu :)
[03:19] <RichEd> Okay ... that's enought for me to do some planning. T.thanks.
[03:19] <ogra> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/MueKow
[03:19] <ogra> well, i should probably open #ubuntu-ltsp 
[03:20] <ogra> but for general stuff i couls also push people to #ltsp ... where i'm resident anyway
[03:20] <cbx33> heh
[03:20] <highvoltage> ogra: what would the difference be between #ubuntu-ltsp and #ltsp after convergence?
[03:20] <ogra> if an edubuntu user has an ltsp prob he should still come to #edubuntu though
[03:21] <ogra> highvoltage, it would take traffic off #ltsp 
[03:21] <highvoltage> ok
[03:21] <ogra> the distro specific one ...
[03:21] <ogra> but thats not a really good idea
[03:21] <RichEd> #ubuntu-ltsp : we need this ... but it should not be another load for you !
[03:21] <cbx33> RichEd: wow, there's a cheery out look ;)
[03:21] <ogra> RichEd, support gives me a lot of user feedback
[03:21] <ogra> its a part of the development process
[03:22] <RichEd> olay well we should at least share the aod and get some ubuntu resouce to help.
[03:22] <ogra> having more people to answer the general questions and FAQs would help a lot here 
[03:22] <ogra> which is an educational problem 
[03:22] <RichEd> great that's a start.
[03:23] <RichEd> ------ Other documentation - technical ? ------ before we move to Will PRO docs
[03:23] <ogra> we just need to get more ltsp users involved ... ;) they tend to be smart enough to pick up on the FQAs ;)
[03:23] <ogra> *FAQs as well :)
[03:25] <willvdl> and the forums?
[03:25] <ogra> :)
[03:25] <RichEd> damn ... sorry ... unexpected exit
[03:25] <ogra> nice exit msg though :)
[03:26] <RichEd> :) alt space and some keystrok shuts my xtak down ahen i type too fast
[03:26] <cbx33> ogra: it is nice...the first time ;)
[03:26] <ogra> heh
[03:26] <RichEd> right will ... docs and brochures and case studies - please outline your process becuae more people are asking
[03:26] <willvdl> Ah. OK.
[03:27] <willvdl> Basically I want all PRO stuff to be cognisant of any developments that happen to edubuntu as a whole
[03:27] <highvoltage> alt+space and then c closes windows in Gnome :) ... but xchat should warn you first i think :/
[03:27] <willvdl> but essentially we have a framework for what is needed
[03:28] <willvdl> the handbook, user docs and the school advocacy space
[03:28] <ogra> right, and you will be in mountainview i guess, to take part in the spec process for edgy+1
[03:28] <willvdl> Me?
[03:28] <ogra> so you will know about the upcoming stuff for the future 
[03:28] <ogra> not ?
[03:29] <willvdl> nope. 
[03:29] <ogra> oh
[03:29] <ogra> ok
[03:29] <willvdl> can always ask someone nicely to tell me :)
[03:29] <ogra> well ... being part of it gives yu a lot more insight ...
[03:30] <willvdl> true. anyhoo, if we keep the space dynamic then it can incorporate any changes that happen
[03:30] <willvdl> structure being more important than content in this light
[03:30] <highvoltage> willvdl: going there would also give you the chance to meet ogra and co, which would certainly be to your benefit in terms of working with them
[03:30] <cbx33> sorry guys, I'm gonna have to go
[03:31] <RichEd> highvoltage: will and I will be at all hands and so will ogra
[03:31] <cbx33> I have too much to do here :(
[03:31] <willvdl> ciao. I'll keep you posted on ESA
[03:31] <ogra> highvoltage, "all hands" is a meeting later
[03:31] <cbx33> thanks willvdl 
[03:31] <pips1> willvdl: I didn't quite understand "Basically I want all PRO stuff to be cognisa of any developments that happen to edubuntu as a whole" What do you mean by "PRO"? And by "cognisant" do you mean 'aware' or 'responsible''
[03:31] <highvoltage> ogra: aaah
[03:32] <RichEd> (but it still may make sense for us to meet the broader dev community as well)
[03:32] <RichEd> pips1: PRO publicity and markting = promotional material
[03:32] <willvdl> Public Relations and "keep in mind"
[03:32] <ogra> RichEd, well, they will all be there as well ...
[03:32] <ogra> (at allhands)
[03:33] <willvdl> ESA needs use cases or examples
[03:33] <willvdl> which I hope to generate some examples
[03:33] <pips1> RichEd willvdl thanks
[03:33] <willvdl> before using the My Story channel like Ubuntu use cases
[03:34] <willvdl> There's currently no real template but we can create a simple "this is what we need to know" list on the wiki
[03:35] <juliux> i have some pictures from the edubuntu/ubuntu booths in germany
[03:35] <juliux> if it helps
[03:35] <willvdl> ESA (with use cases) should fall under the Ubuntu MArketing Team space
[03:35] <willvdl> cool
[03:35] <juliux> http://ubuntu.juliux.de/bilder/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=104
[03:36] <pips1> willvdl: do you have an overview of channels available to ed/ubuntu for project/product promotion? maybe in the wiki somewhere?
[03:36] <willvdl> since we don't have (or really need) Edubuntu marketing
[03:36] <willvdl> not yet
[03:36] <willvdl> but that brings me to the SpreadUbuntu drive
[03:36] <willvdl> Currently Edubuntu hasn't been mentioned in that circle but it should
[03:36] <RichEd> pips1: willvdl is gathering info speed and will merge into our education space ...
[03:37] <willvdl> need suggestions on how to integrate with Spread Ubuntu
[03:37] <RichEd> By the end of the weekend, I'll have a link for his branch
[03:38] <RichEd> willvdl: explain spreadubuntu (while I explain some of the print costs realities) in background
[03:38] <willvdl> pips1, we considered simply revamping the EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy on the wiki since it is superceded by the one on doc.ubuntu
[03:39] <willvdl> spreadubuntu is an ubuntu community drive for ubuntu marketing like spreadfirefox
[03:39] <willvdl> They want promotional info, DIY marketing materials etc. stories, the works
[03:39] <willvdl> a nice home for all ubuntu marketing purposes
[03:40] <willvdl> We will have our own DIY materials
[03:40] <willvdl> and info
[03:41] <RichEd> We are not always able to get head office to fund "education advertising expenses", so we can't create new initiatives and hope for approval. The Marketing Head is however creating a double sided case-study or brochure print format template for general Ubuntu material. We are tailoring our promotional info into this end format, and will argue that if Canonical is funding Ubuntu material, then we can joint the same print run.
[03:41] <pips1> we = ?
[03:41] <willvdl> canonical
[03:41] <RichEd> we = me.
[03:42] <RichEd> I have no budget, it is all a case by case request.
[03:42] <willvdl> Have a look at the spreadubuntu thing and you'll see how they hope to self promote with DIY materials
[03:42] <RichEd> If head office says no, I have no alternate route of funding.
[03:42] <pips1> oh
[03:42] <pips1> ic
[03:43] <willvdl> The trick is to have targeted marketing stuff for all the key audiences
[03:43] <pips1> agreed
[03:43] <willvdl> - education departments in government
[03:43] <willvdl> - to school sys-admins
[03:43] <willvdl> - to home users
[03:43] <RichEd> Note that as a single page double sided, each brochure will need to be specific tagert to each audience type. The brochure must then have a strong pull, and a hook back to the web site version, which can be longer and glossier and fuller.
[03:43] <willvdl> - or any other solution space
[03:44] <RichEd> So all of our key web docs must be able to be translated to a print-lite format. And all of the print-lite brochures must link back to some meat on the web.
[03:45] <willvdl> cbx33 has offered to help with the brochure design etc
[03:45] <willvdl> The info currently under school advocacy is sufficient 
[03:45] <RichEd> cbx33 is the guinea pig for the Schools Advocacy to prove the model.
[03:46] <willvdl> (as long as it tracks developments in edubuntu/ubuntu)
[03:46] <RichEd> And willvdl : Juliux would like to discuss a requirement as test case #2
[03:46] <pips1> re linking offline printed promotional materials with online website info: makes sense
[03:46] <willvdl> we just need use cases and a brochure or two
[03:46] <willvdl> to get started
[03:47] <RichEd> Note also that we can format the stuff for local print as PDF in each territory for small runs for specific events
[03:47] <juliux> willvdl, before we do all of this need good documentation in the internet
[03:47] <juliux> willvdl, many people on expos are asking for documentation
[03:48] <willvdl> agreed
[03:48] <pips1> willvdl: I feel we need to clarify "audience" (people with a certain set of daily goals/tasks) vs. "solution space". What do you mean by the latter?
[03:48] <RichEd> pips1: that's the exercise you and I are busy with 
[03:48] <RichEd> :)
[03:48] <pips1> right
[03:48] <pips1> :)
[03:49] <willvdl> meaning uses of edubuntu outside of education
[03:49] <RichEd> I'm the link between you = community web space & will : print space
[03:49] <RichEd> juliux: we can work from both ends ... the 2 page print format is good becuase it is very short amount of space to get the points across (2/3 column width of a page)
[03:50] <juliux> RichEd, you mean 2 din a 4 pages?
[03:50] <RichEd> It makes sure you focus the thinking and benefits and pish the value buttons of the particular user.
[03:50] <juliux> RichEd, i think the ubuntu flyer has a very good size
[03:51] <RichEd> A4, double sided. The page has a one third column space on the left for logos and addresses etc. so the space left allows for 2 or 3 line paragraphs and tight bullet points.
[03:52] <pips1> RichEd: when you explicitly say *communty* web space... won't there be an "official" web space that need to link in with printed promo materials? or is the general idea that there *isn't* any promotional budget for ubuntu-education from canonical to speak of and we need to make most of community-driven marketing efforts? 
[03:52] <RichEd> Unfortunately, we cannot influence the format (now) as we want to piggy back and say "if you are printing 10 000 ubuntu brochures, then we expect at least 1 000"
[03:53] <willvdl> pips1, I think we should do it in the community driven marketing anyway
[03:53] <willvdl> Hence getting a voice in spreadubuntu
[03:53] <pips1> willvdl: ok, i se
[03:53] <pips1> see
[03:53] <RichEd> pips1: the same as the printed argument ... we need to make the community effort show some results, and then ask them to fund more of the same
[03:53] <RichEd> if we ask for blue sky money ... then ther is skepticism
[03:54] <pips1> ah
[03:54] <pips1> yep, that's sabdfl :-)
[03:54] <willvdl> basically, we hope to get a printed brochure from canonical as a matter of course
[03:55] <willvdl> but can't expect to get everything form them
[03:55] <RichEd> Note that we will make a big bang with our community efforts. As soon as we have some good web readable content (I mean coffee time news read) then I will be pushing for viral distribution.
[03:55] <pips1> willvdl RichEd have you had any contact with community members of the spreadubuntu effort?
[03:55] <willvdl> not yet
[03:56] <willvdl> to be honest I only took a look at it this week
[03:56] <RichEd> I am already making a lsit of education blogs and commentary sites, and will push updates to them on a weekly and then daily basis.
[03:56] <pips1> yeah, things are happening all over the place, it is hard to keep up :-)
[03:56] <pips1> RichEd: great!
[03:56] <willvdl> but I reckon we should move all our stuff into ubuntu-marketing channels for a louder voice and healthier debate
[03:57] <RichEd> There is not always much good quality news about open source and education ...so if we have the stories, the lazy journalists will be only too happy to make links.
[03:57] <pips1> I noticed that a lot of community activity has started after the dapper release (marketing team, people outlining ideas in the wiki here and there, etc), but the activities would possibly benefit from more focus..?
[03:57] <willvdl> yip
[03:57] <willvdl> we could drive an good example to follow
[03:58] <pips1> heh, you are saying slightly different things
[03:58] <RichEd> So, if we have say 6 country local people given us an on the ground news update on their region every month, I'd expect that this would kick a story a week out into the general viral space. 
[03:58] <pips1> willvdl: you want to leverage esixiting *ubuntu* efforts
[03:58] <willvdl> yip. and make sure they include edubuntu in their plans and thinking
[03:58] <pips1> RichEd: you see a niche/need for a unique education+opensource space
[03:59] <RichEd> And then the story must get a click link back, and we need a high conversion factor of visits to subscribers / community sign-ups.
[03:59] <pips1> hm
[04:00] <RichEd> We need viral growth in our community base ... and it is starting ... I have seen a whole lot of new nicks in #edubuntu in the last week.
[04:00] <pips1> yep
[04:00] <RichEd> pips1: unique education+opensource space : not unique, but an ubuntu slant on the education space will piggy back on the ubuntu hype
[04:01] <willvdl> Any comments/suggestions on ESA and use cases?
[04:01] <RichEd> I did an online interview for a SA web mag 3 weeks back ... and the link popped up an a featured education blog on wordpress from the USA a week later.
[04:02] <willvdl> is it in the fridge?
[04:02] <RichEd> So I need to make this more process driven and harness it and not just accidental.
[04:02] <pips1> willvdl: the problem that I currently see with "making ubuntu marketing aware of edubuntu" is that I feel that 'edubuntu' as 'ubuntu+ltsp+educationapps' is currently undergoing a lot of internal discussion amongst us, so how can we easily define edubuntu to the ubuntu-only community folks? and, is it wise to push edubuntu that much, if it will be undergoing a re-think?
[04:02] <RichEd> Jono Bacon's blog is well known and widely read, so we need to get him to comment on us once a month.
[04:03] <RichEd> All free ... just needs time.
[04:03] <willvdl> pips1: exactly my concern
[04:03] <willvdl> but
[04:03] <RichEd> willvdl: yes, i'll google the link and mail you ... will hcek on its spread.
[04:03] <willvdl> if we keep it simple, i.e. this is edubuntu, this is what it can do for you in education
[04:04] <RichEd> pips1: noted 100% that is why matt nuzum and jono bacon are in the loop
[04:04] <willvdl> here is a nice pamphlette on edubuntu as a product
[04:04] <RichEd> we need to be good for them and them for us ...
[04:04] <willvdl> it will be a good start
[04:04] <RichEd> and the debate we are having will be a good blog topic for public ... where does open source education start and where does it end ?
[04:05] <RichEd> education desktop ?
[04:05] <highvoltage> why does it have to end :)
[04:05] <RichEd> education classroom serve ?
[04:05] <willvdl> No matter what happens with edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu etc. our target audience still needs a product
[04:05] <RichEd> education department server farm ?
[04:05] <RichEd> government education department ?
[04:06] <pips1> willvdl: re simple pamphlet as good start, ok. 
[04:06] <RichEd> with the poser question: if your choice of open source distro does not work in ALL of these spaces, do you have the right distro ?
[04:06] <pips1> hehe
[04:06] <RichEd> who else can claim that ?
[04:07] <pips1> RichEd: I don't think we *can* at the moment
[04:07] <RichEd> [fedora classroom]  -> [redhat back end]  is not nearly as seamless as Edubuntu - Ubuntu ?
[04:07] <pips1> but we might get there soon enough :-)
[04:07] <willvdl> pips1, it's an opportunity we shouldn't miss
[04:08] <pips1> sure
[04:08] <RichEd> Note that it is a poser question, for personal blog ... not a company promise !
[04:08] <RichEd> right we're over time ...
[04:08] <RichEd> Any other pressing items ?
[04:08] <pips1> yeah
[04:08] <RichEd> Artwork ... cbx33 is not around ?
[04:08] <willvdl> nope
[04:09] <RichEd> I think we can close off then, as we have been doing the community stuff as links bwteen the other points ?
[04:09] <willvdl> my brain hurts
[04:09] <RichEd> Note how the meetings are getting much broader than Edununtu as a product !
[04:10] <pips1> links between what? doc, promo and ?
[04:10] <RichEd> This debate is really where the reality is ... not jsut producing the product, bnut getting people to understand and adopt.
[04:10] <TeePOG> but RichEd, it has so many possibilities as a product, beyond the original scope
[04:11] <willvdl> yeah but one must mange one's scope-creep
[04:11] <RichEd> Yes ... and that means an opportunity for a rethink .. and improved appraoch.
[04:11] <willvdl> manage rahter
[04:11] <pips1> TeePOG: I think so too
[04:11] <pips1> willvdl: you got a point 
[04:12] <RichEd> I doubt that Ubuntu would have been loming at the same sort of fine grain issues thet we are examining ...
[04:12] <RichEd> looking not loming
[04:12] <TeePOG> on the other hand, willvdl, won't a scope-fork into a different product, result in duplication of effort and user confusion?
[04:12] <RichEd> And as we unbundle the issues, it is a learning for all that we can share.
[04:12] <willvdl> education is a sphere that the edubuntu community comes from and is good at
[04:13] <RichEd> The fact that there is a new canonical web master and community manager who are all expecting a revision and change make thsi realistic.
[04:13] <pips1> I realise that we have a feature freeze and developers are focussing on that right now, but I suggest that we need to get the "core" edubunteros involved in the discussion more! ahem. :-)
[04:14] <RichEd> If we were asking the rest of the company to change when they were stable, we would have a problem being heard. It is a new phase fora ll, and we are at the right idea at the right time.
[04:14] <RichEd> pips1: we will be opening up more and more of this debate in meetings and the wiki.
[04:15] <pips1> right-y-ho
[04:15] <willvdl> pips1, as soon as possible I'll get a space up in the wiki
[04:15] <RichEd> Ubuntu developers conference is almost next month, and All Hands the week thereafeter ... so there is momentum for dicussion
[04:15] <pips1> when exactly is this "All Hands" meeting
[04:15] <pips1> ?
[04:16] <willvdl> 11 november
[04:16] <RichEd> pips1: MV week 2 & AH week 3 of novermber
[04:16] <pips1> sounds like a deadline to me, then
[04:16] <pips1> :-)
[04:17] <RichEd> This weekend is the first deadline.
[04:17] <RichEd> Then the end of the month.
[04:17] <pips1> in what way?
[04:17] <RichEd> To have a place to set targets & deadlines in public for the soft issues. For debate and information.
[04:18] <pips1> ic
[04:18] <RichEd> Okay .. I have to move on.
[04:19] <RichEd> pips1: I'll have links up for you to explore tomorrow. Cleard my domestic calendar for the night to break the back of the wiki planning.
[04:19] <pips1> same here
[04:20] <pips1> great
[04:20] <RichEd> thanks all
[04:20] <willvdl> ciao all
[04:20] <RichEd> going once
[04:20] <RichEd> going twice
[04:20] <RichEd> closed
[04:20] <willvdl> three times a lady
[04:20] <pips1> good discussion
[04:21] <pips1> cu all
[04:21] <willvdl> ciao
[04:21] <RichEd> Just need to pin it down ... and tonight is the night.
[06:42] <mdz> ogra: what's this bug regarding scp which you feel is critical?  please tell me the bug number
[06:43] <ogra> mdz, its not filed
[06:44] <ogra> (i can do so, but i even can add two lines to the script to just fix it)
[06:45] <ogra> it should just die if LTSP_CLIENT isnt set in env
[06:46] <mdz> what is "it"?
[06:47] <ogra> the SCP client script is started from Xession.d 
[06:47] <ogra> it should only run in LTSP sessions
[06:47] <ogra> it wont do any harm to run it in a normal session though
[06:48] <ogra> but its ugly 
[06:48] <ogra> and a trivial fix
[06:48] <mdz> oh, you're talking about student control panel, not secure copy
[06:48] <ogra> heh, yes
[06:48] <ogra> thats why i capitalize it :)
[07:21] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[07:21] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 21 Sep 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 15:00: Edubuntu | 28 Sep 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Oct 12:00: Community Council
[07:22] <Adri2000> @schedule paris
[07:22] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 22:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 29 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Oct 19:00: Community Council
[07:33] <Burgwork> @now Vancouver
[07:33] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/Vancouver: September 20 2006, 10:33:12 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 21 hours 26 minutes
[08:02] <Linuturk_code> @now New York
[08:02] <Linuturk_code> :-/
[08:39] <Adri2000> @now New_York
[08:39] <Ubugtu> Current time in America/New_York: September 20 2006, 14:39:19 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 20 hours 20 minutes
[08:43] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[08:43] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 22:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 29 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Oct 19:00: Community Council