[12:09] can we attach files to bugs by email yet? [12:10] ajmitch, nope. [12:10] I was looking at that bug last night. [12:10] irritating [12:11] Yeah. [12:11] There's no way to do merges properly without using the web interface D: [12:12] And wouldn't it be nice if LP exposed a sane machine-parsable interface so external applications could be written to access it, rather than having things like Conseil parse the HTML? [12:12] it will [12:12] "do merges" ? [12:12] Keybuk, file merge requests. [12:12] (with debdiffs) [12:13] (for non-devs) [12:13] I still don't follow? Why do you use LP for that? [12:14] there are teams on launchpad for sponsoring uploads [12:14] Keybuk, the new merge workflow means non-MOTUs have to file bugs, attach debdiffs, and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors to get a change done. [12:14] ok [12:14] It's not a bad system, except that it can't be automated. [12:20] Fujitsu: launchpad has an XML-RPC interface [12:20] mdz, I read on the Launchpad wiki that it didn't have it yet... [12:21] How long has it had it, and where is it documented? [12:21] months [12:21] When I asked a couple of months ago they didn't have it. [12:21] probably on help.launchpad.net somewhere [12:22] Yes, I'm checking now... [12:22] Thanks :) [12:22] searching for 'rpc' on the front page finds it [12:22] mdz: bug 61550, anything else you want on it? [12:22] Malone bug 61550 in f-spot "UVF exception request for f-spot 0.2.1" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/61550 [12:22] it doesn't support attachments or subscriptions yet as far as I know [12:24] ajmitch: it's a new feature release :-/ [12:24] mdz: yeah, that's why I wasn't sure of getting it [12:25] ajmitch: I'd appreciate a more detailed rationale; I commented on the bug [12:25] ok [12:25] thanks for looking === theCore [n=alex@modemcable106.200-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:25] mdz, I wouldn't say that Launchpad had an XML-RPC interface... I'd say that Malone had a severely crippled attempt at an XML-RPC method for filing bugs. [12:26] But it's a start. [12:26] Fujitsu: it has an XML-RPC interface that's a WIP [12:26] elmo, there is actually some work being done on it? [12:27] no, we just added the functionality to taunt and tease people tantalus-style [12:27] (or: yes, of course it is) [12:27] s/it/there/ [12:27] OK, good :_) [12:27] *:) === Kamion scratches his head at ubiquity. It's only displaying rows in the mountpoints table after you go back to gparted and forward again ... === fdsd [n=dcstimm@ip68-8-230-16.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:29] hey guys does edgy still use usplash? [12:29] fdsd, it's completely different, but yes. [12:30] Fujitsu, is there a guide on how to change the boot splash? [12:30] fdsd, yes, but I can't remember where it is. [12:30] On the wiki somewhere, I think. [12:31] Fujitsu, okay, I made my own project out of the stable livecds but the kernel used on the ppc version has issues with firewire so I would like to modify edgy (powerpc) live cd to do the same thing.. [12:35] fdsd, talk to Sevea [12:36] seveas, rather [12:36] Burgwork, okay [12:36] Yes, Seveas is master of all things usplash-customisation. [12:36] Burgwork, lol sounds good === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:38] !usplash [12:38] Do you guys know if its possible to use the egdy knot 3 powerpc kernel and insert it into stable?, I modified the initrd files to include the /lib/modules dir, but it just stalls at boot [12:38] any idea? [12:38] Also I love how people think ftp is "File TRansfer Program" [12:38] mcm [12:38] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/USplashCustomizationHowto [12:38] into the livecd [12:39] gnomefreak, yeah I use that howto for stable, but how about for edgy knot 3? [12:39] i havent tried it yet im assuming the same [12:40] ok [12:40] totally different [12:40] the alternatives file and everything else needed hasnt changed names that im aware of [12:40] yeah I figured it looks completely different [12:40] pngtobogl -> pngtousplash [12:41] there is a new utility? [12:41] you need to write a short C file with theme structures in it [12:41] ah [12:41] it's basically just a renaming because usplash doesn't always use BOGL any more, and in principle the structures might not stay the same [12:41] don't use vga= any more [12:41] I see, so is there a howto? [12:41] not to my knowledge [12:42] I'd grab one of the existing usplash theme packages and poke around [12:42] usplash-theme-ubuntu should be reasonable [12:42] Kamion, does pngtousplash make the C file with the theme stuctures? [12:42] yes [12:42] er [12:42] no [12:42] :-) [12:42] lol [12:42] pngtousplash just converts a .png file to a C file representing that .png [12:43] pngtousplash usplash-artwork.png > usplash-artwork.c [12:43] but you need a C wrapper that includes to potentially multiple such files and provides structure descriptions of them [12:43] see usplash-theme-ubuntu.c [12:43] s/includes to/includes/ [12:43] Kamion: who is dealing with mozcorp re: firefox stuff atm? [12:43] actually s/includes/links/, you don't need to #include them [12:43] jdub: dunno, sorry [12:43] Kamion, where can I find that package [12:44] fdsd: apt-get source usplash-theme-ubuntu - it's in edgy [12:44] Kamion, I dont have ubuntu installed right now [12:44] well pick it out of archive.ubuntu.com in the usual way [12:44] you're on #ubuntu-devel so I expect you know :-) [12:44] Kamion, ok [12:44] Kamion, im a guest [12:45] s/know/know or can make educated guesses/ [12:46] Kamion, well I have [12:46] also if you aren't running Ubuntu you will have difficulty building theme packages [12:46] you need to have libusplash-dev installed [12:47] Kamion, I will install it to modify it === jdub roars laughing [12:49] "I haven't been this excited since the introduction of devfs." - Mark Rosenstand on upstart-devel list [12:49] Promising. Erm. === AlinuxOS [n=alinux@d81-211-249-2.cust.tele2.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mdz [n=mdz@studiocity-motorola-bsr1-70-36-194-85.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:00] infinity: ping? === BenC [n=bcollins@72.169.114.90] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:07] Kamion: you just synced erlang and ejabberd? :-) [01:07] s/just// ;-) [01:07] thanks in that case :-) [01:07] Nafallo, not really just... It was quite some time ago :P [01:07] Fujitsu: you, noticed now :-) [01:07] Nafallo: no [01:07] Hey guys, Do you know what the pool directory is on the ubuntu livecd? [01:08] hm, so thanks whoever did that :-) [01:08] fdsd: it's for various packages that we want to make available after installation but don't actually want to have preinstalled [01:08] Nafallo, about 50 minutes ago. [01:08] Kamion, oh cool [01:08] fdsd: chiefly for unusual network access methods and means to bootstrap yourself up for such (i.e. compiler and kernel headers) [01:09] though I think the latter are in desktop now [01:09] see http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/edgy/ship-live for the top-level list of things in there === mdeslaur [n=mdeslaur@modemcable196.26-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jono [n=jono@88-107-0-133.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:11] Kamion, I am trying to take the kernel from the edgy powerpc knot3 live cd and put it in the 6.06 desktop powerpc livecd, I extracted the vmlinuz files put them in /casper/powerpc and /boot/ and transfered /lib/modules over and inserted them also into the initrd.gz file, do you know if I need to do anything else? [01:12] I thought there was a minor kernel/udev compatibility issue with using edgy's kernel on dapper [01:12] but others would know more than I on that [01:12] Kamion, it hangs on boot [01:12] don't you kind of need kernel modules? [01:12] I imagine you screwed up one of the many steps required to get the above procedure exactly right [01:13] oh, nvm === jdong needs to learn to read [01:13] yes, you'll also need to update /lib/modules in the squashfs [01:13] but it's probably not that [01:13] Kamion, I did [01:13] my guess is you got the initrd.gz format wrong [01:13] check mkinitramfs for exactly how it creates it [01:13] Kamion, I modified the initrd.gz all the time for usplash [01:13] I don't know then, sorry [01:14] upgrading the kernel is not an easy task - it takes us a while to cope with the fallout each time, these days [01:14] ok [01:15] I thought it might have to do with the new init process [01:15] tseng: ping [01:15] fdsd: no, not if you didn't suck in upstart [01:15] the new kernel doesn't require upstart [01:15] slomo_: ping [01:15] jdong: pong [01:15] heh [01:15] oh, wrong one === jdong bumps jdub/jdong counter to 6 [01:16] slomo_: you planning to migrate all mono stuff to 2.0? [01:16] jdub: no that would be insane and useless... why? [01:16] Kamion, I guess I can just modify the knot 3 livecd, hopefully someone will post a howto on how to modify the usplash [01:16] slomo_: just noticed that banshee has cranked up === shackan [n=shackan@85-18-14-13.fastres.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:17] jdub: but f-spot and banshee upstream switched over... so we'll get 2.0 stuff slowly [01:17] slomo_: for edgy? [01:17] not unless there's a damn good reason, at this point [01:17] just worried we're going to have yucky duplicate action [01:18] slomo_, that would be Kamion sharpening his knives ;) [01:18] though thus far not on the desktop CD [01:18] jdub: f-spot no... but banshee already is and we also have some other 2.0 stuff in universe already [01:18] Kamion, is there a reason why still have gthumb on the desktop cd? [01:19] mmm, good point [01:19] jdub: if upstream switches we switch too... but everything else just makes no sense :) [01:20] Burgwork: the arguments did not appear conclusive to me [01:20] Kamion, arguments over which to ship or over whether or not they are duplicative? [01:20] the latter === theine_ [n=theine@c-9d32e655.1027-1-64736c20.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:21] Burgwork: arguments on whether f-spot provided everything that real gthumb users actually needed === HrdwrBoB_ is now known as HrdwrBoB [01:21] ah, taht [01:21] it is possible to duplicate much of something's functionality without providing a complete replacement [01:21] yes [01:22] Kamion: and the only reason this matters is because we've shipped gthumb previously? [01:22] jdub: yes [01:22] considering that 'real gthumb users' will get it via upgrade, how much does that matter? [01:22] anyway, I'm not that interested in the discussion, we aren't desperately short of space right now and we found a number of very lucrative ways of saving space [01:22] take it up with a core developer who cares ;) [01:23] what are the other space-saving changes? === doko__ [n=doko@dslb-088-073-084-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:24] Kamion: ubiquity seems to have rewritten my partition table even though I didn't change its contents? [01:24] Kamion: (who ultimately makes that decision? isn't it roughly you?) [01:24] jdub: hello [01:24] It's possible that it didn't - I failed to check properly beforehand [01:24] yo tseng [01:24] move the Ubuntu book to online content only, recode the video to make more sensible use of space, vim -> vim-tiny, console-* -> console-setup, ongoing work on recoding .pngs, on-the-fly PPD generation, getting rid of some other unused printing stuff, probably more stuff I forgot [01:24] jdub: Whoever collects a rough concensus from a few people and then edits the seeds. [01:25] jdub: anyone in core-dev can edit the seeds; final decision in case of conflict would be the technical board, of which I am not a member [01:25] jdub: whats up? [01:25] i guess i'll talk to sebuild and dhbuild [01:25] Burgwork, the thread discussing gthumb/f-spot is quite large, but you can see it at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-July/thread.html#19593 (the mono one) === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:26] tseng: ended up pinging slomo [01:26] jdub: oh [01:26] jdub: thats always a good idea [01:26] slomo is brilliant [01:26] micahcowan, I remember that, but it never came to a conclusion [01:26] I'm useless [01:26] almost all the above changes were more lucrative than gthumb, but they did not attract as much attention because people find it harder to think about more subtle but more worthwhile changes rather than "omg let's remove an application at a time" [01:26] at the moment gthumb is still used as the default import action [01:27] mjg59: happy to look at a partman log, if you used manual partitioning [01:27] Kamion: Sure [01:27] I'll take a look myself first [01:27] mjg59: and it's also entirely possible that partman will do that anyway *shrug* [01:27] it's probably a bug, but where to start ... [01:28] Kamion: i'm not raising it as a matter of gaining space [01:28] Burgwork, I think the (non-explicit) conclusion was more or less that there were enough people who needed feature-sets in the one that weren't in the other, that they were both necessary (although I still don't see why that means they both have to be on the CD, along with mono). But I just don't care enough about it to be bothered. [01:28] jdub: I was explicitly raising it as a matter of gaining space, originally [01:28] and most people talk about it in those terms [01:28] "why are we wasting space on this when we could be using it on such-and-such" [01:29] jdub: f-spot --view still sucks, and being feature stuff won't really see love for edgy [01:29] ajmitch: yeah, i'm thinking the major use case people are concerned about is porn, and they don't want porn in their photo management application [01:29] heh [01:30] worryingly, that's probably true :p [01:30] jdub: and then there are the people that refuse to accept they are part of the Matrix === ajmitch blames those warty backgrounds... [01:30] ajmitch, haha. [01:30] jdub: er.. that you can sort photos w/o directories [01:30] though I find nautilus and eog fine for viewing porn [01:30] I get to tile multiple pleasing pictures [01:30] *ahem* [01:30] jdub: we don't free a mind past a certain age === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:31] Keybuk: and set them as backgrounds? :) [01:31] This is the second time this has come up in 48 hours :P [01:31] jdub: heh, yes [01:31] it's much funnier when poeple see screenshots then [01:31] micahcowan, I saw a lot of edge use cases [01:32] slomo_: pong [01:32] Burgwork, yeah. [01:32] Keybuk: "is this your sister's laptop?" [01:32] micahcowan: (f-spot wasn't the first thing that dragged mono in) [01:32] mono is vaguely interesting [01:33] infinity: (please give-back tomboy on sparc) do you have any ETA for apache2-dev and apache-dev beeing installable at the same time again? :) [01:33] for a while it seemed to be the poster child of GNOME's future [01:33] wow, this thread was totally derailed by noise and uninteresting goals [01:33] but the wind seems to be blowing towards Python at the moment [01:33] slomo_: https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/247087/ <-- Already done. [01:33] Keybuk, good. [01:33] infinity: oh, while you're here, livefs cron jobs? [01:33] slomo_: As for apache, it'll get done after I do some "OMG, beta freeze" stuff for the day. [01:33] Kamion: Done last night. [01:33] Kamion, oh. Tomboy, right? Didn't remember that it had started there and moved on to f-spot. [01:33] Keybuk: people who equated mono with The One Future were faux-journalists misquoting miguel [01:33] infinity: oh... you're too fast for me :) thanks [01:33] infinity: ah, cool, thanks [01:34] micahcowan: right [01:34] jdub: I have fix for f-spot --view crashing here to upload [01:34] Keybuk: i added that "haven't been this excited since devfs" comment to my sig file ;) === ajmitch hunts on disk === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-devel === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:34] Fujitsu: why good? surely the more languages we have complete development environments for, the better? [01:34] jdong: lol [01:34] jdub: lol [01:34] I mean [01:34] hehe [01:34] I spent all of yesterday evening getting "MOST IMPORTANT CHANGE IN 30 YEARS!!" jokes [01:34] Keybuk: that was GOLD [01:34] Keybuk: where's that? lugradio? [01:34] micahcowan: I parenthesised it because I don't think it's especially critical, and could be removed if we really wanted - although now that we've got a lot of PR saying that we're going to be shipping Mono by default in edgy, it's hard to go back [01:34] yeah [01:35] bonus [01:35] I'm a guest on Monday's show [01:35] should be a good episode [01:35] cute boys, cute girls === Keybuk hums the "Pia Waugh" song === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:35] Kamion: I wouldnt cry, for the record [01:36] it's interesting [01:36] what would we put on instead of mono? [01:36] Kamion: One cd is one of our most important features [01:36] if you said "telepathy, farsight, galago and avahi" [01:36] then I would wave mono goodbye today [01:36] Kamion, yes, I heard that argument. I thought it was a little humorous, because at the time people started arguing about whether to include mono, the response to space issues was that we had a decent amount of space at that time. Now that we /are/ hitting space boundaries, and the question was asked regarding what to remove, the first thing that was said was that mono isn't attractive because now that we've got it in there, it's given us good PR [01:36] ^_^ [01:36] but f-spot is damned nice [01:36] damn, added fix to wrong bzr branch [01:36] Keybuk: avahi is not interesting... only avahi-daemon is missing ;) [01:37] micahcowan: I don't think anyone actually researched the space issues before saying that ... [01:37] (unfortunately) [01:37] they just said "yeah sure loads of space let's go shopping" [01:37] I'd still rather see OpenOffice go away, and get replaced by something that's not fucking awful [01:37] but sadly that something doesn't exist [01:37] Yes, I thought it was a weak argument in the first place. Like running into space issues wasn't already a given, whether or not we had actually done so yet :/ === human_blip [n=mike@220.157.65.29] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:38] nobody observed that, if nothing else, we're *always* anxious for more space to shove localisation into [01:38] do we really need 20MB of games on the CD? [01:38] and that there were known things that were going to arrive later in the cycle and clamour for space [01:38] Well, but we'll never actually have /that/ sort of space (on the CD) will we? [01:38] Keybuk, IMHO, including a decent amount of quality games is a good PR move. [01:38] the games are quite a good draw for new users, I've found [01:38] (look at me! I'm using the same argument I was just deriding re: mono!) [01:39] I agree, but then I also thing a good photo management app is a good draw for new users *and* at the same time a good PR move due to including mono [01:39] my parents sat for long enough playing the games that it became embedded in their heads that Ubuntu was worth a try, and they've been playing around more since :) [01:39] approx what time is beta freeze? end of thurs? [01:39] Keybuk: that should totally be fixed upstream... what a mess. [01:39] 20MB does seem a bit too much though [01:39] ajmitch: traditionally, start of distro team meeting [01:39] I converted two users to Ubuntu with f-spot alone [01:39] Keybuk, well, as Kamion already pointed out, mono wasn't brought in for f-spot (but for Tomboy). [01:39] (well, f-spot and gphoto) [01:39] Keybuk: YES we need 20MB of games on the livecd [01:39] Keybuk, awesome. [01:39] what the hell else am I supposed to do watching ubiquity? :) [01:40] Kamion: thanks [01:40] jdong: I always press Alt+F4 during the installer to look at what it's really doing [01:40] ...this doesn't work so well with u6y :( [01:40] sucks to be Keybuk ;) [01:40] Keybuk: ha ha ha [01:40] Keybuk: that's about as entertaining as watching a gentoo install [01:40] maybe I should rebind alt-f4 to a "Hi Scott!" dialog === micahcowan thinks sgt-puzzles should be among the games included on the CD. [01:41] micahcowan: yes! [01:41] micahcowan: (Simon's a friend of mine, lives a few streets away ...) [01:41] there really is a random bunch of crap on the CD though [01:42] the games there are much higher quality than many of the GNOME games, IMHO [01:42] Kamion, really? That's frikking awesome. Where do you live, anyway? (no, I'm not gonna stalk either you or sgt ;o) [01:42] although possibly not quite so much UI focus, though it's not dreadful [01:42] micahcowan: Cambridge, England [01:42] Kamion, totally, totally agreed. I'm personally impressed by his proven-solvable mines implementation, and I really enjoy playing netgame). [01:42] Kamion: hrm, perhaps we should do some introductions [01:43] Kamion: I'm increasingly wondering whether the time is fast coming where we start shipping localised CDs [01:43] Keybuk: *shudder* [01:43] testing nightmare though [01:43] Keybuk: YAY NO SHIPIT! [01:43] right, to both [01:43] though shipit wants to be devolved eventually anyway [01:44] I look forward to the day when CDs go the way of the floppy, and we can just throw DVDs at everyone. [01:44] Of course, I also look forward to getting 10 times the bandwidth, so I can download DVD ISOs and test them... [01:44] Kamion: that's what i mean; without shipit to worry about, things like that become slightly more viable [01:44] infinity: of course the software grows to fill the DVD [01:45] Vista is only shipped on DVD [01:45] so it may not be seen as unreasonable if we start doing the same [01:45] I think OS X is only on DVD too [01:45] jdub: the combinatorial testing thing is still a very valid argument though, IMHO [01:45] Keybuk: Vista is only meant for new hardware, and is not distributed on the internet, so they have two wins over us there. [01:45] infinity: I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Ubuntu is only meant for modern hardware [01:45] and I'm very concerned about giving the official Ubuntu stamp to localised CDs that we haven't QAed [01:46] Kamion: did that layering stuff happen? (filesystems with only language stuff in them vs. filesystem with system files, then building CDs by switching language filesystems)? [01:46] we can always have a CD-shipped bling-less derivative for lower hardware [01:46] jdub: -> infinity - it was nearly there last I checked [01:46] infinity: ^? [01:46] jdub: though possibly not that specific thing, but the underlying technology [01:46] It's rolling out today, though we've certainly not attacked using it for localisation. [01:46] (Though we'll use it to ship a live dvd with all the langpacks...) [01:46] anyone else noticed audio stops playing very often when installing packages, etc., with the new CPU scheduling stuff? [01:47] might reduce the feeling of sickness about combinatorial test fuckage somewhat [01:47] Kamion, the gnome-games maintainers have started a process to pull in better games [01:47] Hey Kamion, ooc what OS does sgt run (primarily) on his computer? [01:47] jdub: Still need to boot the final ISO for each one, and see if the langpack plays along okay. [01:47] infinity: thus 'feeling of sickness' === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.230.210] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:48] infinity: interestingly, using the "recommended spec" guide we established; edgy+1 can recommend a Dual Core 64-bit capable processor, 1GB RAM, High Performance 3D card, 160GB drive and a combo CD-RW/DVD drive [01:49] why do you need a CD-RW? === CarlFK [n=carl@c-67-163-39-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:49] alex-weej: thanks for enhancing the absurdity [01:49] alex-weej: the "recommended spec" guide is "what you can buy from Dell for $500 at the _start_ of the development process for that release" [01:49] Keybuk: yikes! what on earth! [01:49] (ie. a cheap PC that's already 6 months out of date) [01:49] anyone have any idea why a GtkTable might allegedly have the right number of rows/columns, but the children I've added dynamically (as opposed to being in glade) completely fail to display? this is the ubiquity mountpoints table ... [01:49] Keybuk: since when was that necessary to run ubuntu? [01:49] :P [01:50] jdong: that is recommended since edgy+1 [01:50] jdong: recommended, not required === poningru [n=poningru@wsip-70-168-186-68.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:50] micahcowan: err, iirc Windows and Debian, although I think he flirted with OS X too for a bit [01:50] err, that wollen is been recommendeding sonce to edgy+1 [01:50] Keybuk: what warrants that recommendation though? [01:51] jdong: you appear to be misunderstanding [01:52] when we talked about this a while back, we needed some kind of metric for deciding what kind of things were acceptable to require, and what kind of things weren't [01:52] in particular, memory usage; but it also applies to building features around the availability of a 3D graphics card (mmm.. compiz) [01:53] I see [01:53] so we came up with the idea that a given release of Ubuntu should not require anything more than a $500 PC bought online from a major retailer 6 months previously to the release [01:54] ok, and recommends is if you put as much shiny stuff onto ubuntu as you physically can... [01:54] while I see the point, I think we would need to check whether this is in fact at all in touch with our userbase [01:54] i think this is an elaborate scheme for keybuk to get new $500 PCs bought from major retailers every six months [01:54] right, this is just recommends, not requires [01:54] Keybuk: what are you looking at for requires? [01:54] jdong: we just make that up as we go along [01:54] "... that a given release of Ubuntu should not require ..." [01:55] did you mean "should not recommend" then? [01:55] I'm probably the only person who actually knows the minimum spec edgy can boot on [01:55] or something that actually makes sense :) [01:55] Kamion: yes, sorry, thinko === Riddell [i=jr@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:55] Kamion, what does hdwb give us? might it be possible to plan an hwdb-ng for edgy+1 to collect better stats and also help the laptop|server testing programs? === sladen [i=paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:55] Burgwork: hwdb has always been a bit of a mystery to me, I must admit === sivang [i=sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:55] Burgwork: that would assume that people would not be upgrading their machine at the same time as their operating system [01:56] I agree that it ought to be involved if possibl [01:56] e [01:56] which I think is an invalid assumption [01:56] Howdy folks [01:56] Keybuk: the converse is also an invalid assumption, though [01:56] indeed [01:56] Keybuk: otherwise we wouldn't provide the dist-upgrader [01:56] I don't disagree [01:56] Kamion, it is a giant group of flat files, afaik [01:56] however we do need a metric to make decisions like "enable compiz by default, and treat it as a feature" against === ajmitch tends towards upgrades every 2-3 years (or in case of theft :) ) [01:57] Burgwork: the backend, right, but I don't even know what information it stores :) [01:57] Keybuk, if we get a new program created and a new db, we can answer those questions better [01:57] apparently hwdb-client is not longer required [01:57] details of format are a bit irrelevant - that can be recoded [01:57] Debian (and derivatives) pretty much encourages keeping old hardware, since it's easy to upgrade. The "throw out the machine and get a new one with a new OS" thing is more likely in the Windows world where you pretty much have to reinstall *anyway*. [01:57] and I don't think that "does a 6-month old entry-level PC support that" is unreasonable in this regard [01:58] infinity: actually it's not true, you can prepare a Windows installation for a hardware gutting, and the next time it boots it does all HW detection and setup again but keeps everything else intact [01:58] (fwiw. the required ram for edgy should probably be stated as 256MB) [01:58] Kamion, yep. it tests a few basic things, like sound and networking and then sends the cpu type, amount of ram, harddrive size, etc. [01:58] alex-weej: I was referring to upgrading the OS. [01:58] alex-weej: we arent talking about expert users nessecarily, anyway === wasabi [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:58] alex-weej: Like, if you instend to get vista, and you know you're reinstalling anyway, you'll be more tempted to reinstall to new hardware. [01:59] infinity: ah ok i understand [01:59] infinity: why is this bad for new releases of ubuntu? [01:59] alex-weej: Whereas, if yo uintend to get edgy, you just dist-upgrade. [01:59] Kamion, http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/?xml=8784c7ac0118f31e4c134ed872051615 [02:00] tbh i'd say 6 month-old entry level is the equivalent of a 24 month-old top-end machine - something to bear in mind [02:00] Keybuk: With upgrading being so easy, when I see update-manager offer to upgrade my OS, I'm not going to say "hey, this is a good time to go buy a new computer", I'm just going to say "new OS? sure!" and upgrade my existing machine. [02:00] alex-weej: yes, that was very deliberate [02:01] infinity: so you're saying that we should never add a feature to Ubuntu if it could possibly increase the RAM, CPU or other hardware requirements on the system? [02:01] Keybuk: You know I'm not saying that. :) [02:01] it's not an unreasonable position, and if adopted, I have a long list of things we need to remove that have been added since warty ;) [02:01] infinity: right... but then what are you saying? :p [02:01]