[12:10] <chillywilly> ok, where's the location that the package scripts and such are temporarily unpacked to?
[12:10] <chillywilly>  /var/cache/....something or another
[12:11] <chillywilly>  /var/lib/dpkg ?
[12:11] <crimsun> .../info
[12:26] <camh> [dapper]  are there any plans to upgrade totem-xine in universe to match the totem dependency in main? (1.4.1-0ubuntu4 -> 1.4.3-0ubuntu1)
[12:27] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't know
[12:27] <crimsun> ``apt-cache madison totem-xine''
[12:28] <camh> totem-xine | 1.4.1-0ubuntu4 | http://au.archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
[12:28] <imbrandon> totem-xine | 1.4.1-0ubuntu4 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
[12:28] <imbrandon> looks to be there
[12:29] <imbrandon> totem | 1.4.1-0ubuntu4 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/main Sources
[12:29] <imbrandon> looks to match to me
[12:29] <camh> totem (in main) depends on totem-xine (>= 1.4.3-0ubuntu1)
[12:29] <minghua> what is the UVF exception policy now?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/UpstreamVersionFreeze seems awfully out of date
[12:29] <crimsun> minghua: for universe or main?
[12:29] <minghua> universe
[12:29] <crimsun> minghua: we're (universe, that is) not frozen until the 28th.
[12:29] <minghua> oh, cool
[12:29] <minghua> thanks crimsun
[12:29] <crimsun> (hence the flurry of activity in the past couple weeks)
[12:29] <camh>      totem | 1.4.3-0ubuntu1 | http://au.archive.ubuntu.com dapper-updates/main Sources
[12:30] <crimsun> camh: probably because the -updates binary didn't carry over into universe
[12:30] <crimsun> camh: you'd need to ask a release manager
[12:31] <crimsun> mdz has been idle 21 hours 36 mins 11 secs
[12:31] <crimsun> kamion has been idle 14 hours 40 mins 9 secs
[12:31] <LaserJock> hmm, are depwaits automatically retried or do I need to ask  an archive admin to give them back?
[12:31] <crimsun> try during the week.
[12:32] <crimsun> LaserJock: best to poke infinity
[12:32] <LaserJock> k
[12:32] <camh> it would help if I had universe on my dapper-updates sources.list. Looks like it will upgrade now.
[12:32] <LaserJock> I guess perhaps i should have done that a bit better
[12:36] <crimsun> camh: heh, we've all pebkaced at some point
[12:37] <LaserJock> even the might dieties ? ;-)
[12:37] <LaserJock> *mighty
[12:38] <minghua> Hmm, sorry for being newbie again - but where is the howto for sync request?
[12:38] <LaserJock> so essentially a NEW package has to go through NEW twice? once for the source and once for the binaries
[12:40] <geser> minghua: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-August/000181.html lists the current policy for sync request (2nd topic of this mail)
[12:40] <minghua> geser: thanks!
[12:40] <minghua> I remember receiving such a mail but forgot which list (and I am away from my inbox now) :-P
[12:43] <keescook> anyone want to review an icculus game I packaged for REVU?  no better way to spend saturday than shooting badguys.  ;)
[12:53] <minghua> my download speed from there is like below 1KB/s
[12:56] <ryanakca> ouch
[12:57] <crimsun> my school severely rate-limits *.ubuntu.com, *.canonical.com, and *.launchpad.net
[12:57] <Fujitsu> Wha!?
[12:58] <imbrandon> crimsun: ouch
[12:58] <crimsun> apparently our "intelligent" gateway does traffic analysis and attempts to choke heavily accessed sites. Go figure.
[12:58] <imbrandon> crimsun: any good reason ? do they run ( or could you convince them ) to mirror ?
[12:58] <imbrandon> ahh that sucks
[12:59] <crimsun> our administrator seems intent to ignore sanity, too, since it appears to integrate wonderfully with Windows
[12:59] <imbrandon> ohhh house to myself /me put in the "KISS - Dressed to Kill" album and cranks it up while qt-designer loads
[12:59] <imbrandon> hahaha crimsun
[12:59] <imbrandon> figures
[01:00] <bddebian> KISS? Blech
[01:00] <bddebian> Throw in some Metallica baby :-)
[01:00] <tseng> Metallica snore
[01:00] <tseng> throw in some Isis
[01:00] <imbrandon> heh, KISS rules ;)
[01:00] <imbrandon> ( as far as old rock )
[01:01] <tseng> "old rock" is Zepplin and Sabbath
[01:01] <bddebian> Yeah
[01:01] <tseng> KISS will be forgotten, hopefully
[01:01] <imbrandon> haha kiss has been arround almost 30 years
[01:01] <imbrandon> doubtfull
[01:01] <crimsun> bddebian gave rock n' roll to you, too, tseng
[01:01] <imbrandon> haha crimsun classic
[01:02] <tseng> so classic that I don't get it
[01:02] <Fujitsu> +1 crimsun.
[01:02] <crimsun> tseng: a play on god gave rock n' roll to you
[01:02] <imbrandon> tseng: there is a kiss song name "god gave rock and roll to you "
[01:02] <tseng> oh
[01:02] <tseng> I would know that
[01:04] <xopher> Hi! Any ideas on what I should do if I wish to build l-r-m for a specific kernel-version? Ive tried, well everything I can come up with, and it still compiles according to the newest available, instead of the one I want.
[01:04] <xopher> Using pbuilder to compile btw
[01:04] <minghua> okay I've done a sync request as bug #62101
[01:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 62101 in qgo "Please sync qgo (universe) 1.5.1-1 from Debian (main)" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62101
[01:04] <imbrandon> xopher: ->#-kernel could probably let you know
[01:05] <imbrandon> although they lilely arrount alive till weekdays
[01:05] <imbrandon> likely
[01:05] <minghua> can anyone look at it to make sure I've done thing right?  and do I need to assign it to some one special to get it processed?
[01:06] <imbrandon> minghua: normaly you would just as a MOTU to ack it and they will subscribe u-a if nessesary
[01:06] <imbrandon> ask*
[01:07] <minghua> imbrandon: I see, so some MOTU need to build it in edgy and ack it?  then it can be subscribed to u-a?
[01:07] <imbrandon> minghua: yup
[01:07] <LaserJock> minghua: aren't you a MOTU?
[01:07] <crimsun> he is
[01:07] <minghua> it seems I should write a wiki page about this procedure
[01:07] <crimsun> all he needs to do is sub ubuntu-archive
[01:07] <minghua> LaserJock: yes, but I don't have a edgy environment to build it
[01:07] <xopher> imbrandon, thanks Ill see if they know anything
[01:07] <imbrandon> ohh your a motu ? heh /me dident know
[01:08] <minghua> so I think I should play it safe and ask another MOTU to ack it?
[01:08] <crimsun> not necessary
[01:08] <crimsun> as a member of ubuntu-dev, you're already trusted for it
[01:08] <imbrandon> not really since there wasnt a delta
[01:08] <imbrandon> just sub u-a
[01:08] <imbrandon> and your golden
[01:09] <minghua> imbrandon: a MOTU without an edgy environment is not even as good as an ordinary user :-)  I appreciate your help
[01:09] <imbrandon> hehe dchroot ?
[01:09] <minghua> good, then I'll subscribe it to u-a, if things break, I suppose I can go through the trouble and fix it...
[01:09] <imbrandon> thats how i do my sid stuff ;)
[01:15] <crimsun> this is so ugly. Why is there a .so in libfooX (instead of libfoo-dev)?!
[01:16] <imbrandon> you mean a symlink to .so.X.X.X or .....
[01:16] <crimsun> yes
[01:17] <LaserJock> :-)
[01:17] <minghua> crimsun: sounds a bug to me if the .so is a symlink instead of a file
[01:17] <Fujitsu> It can't be a good idea to include i386 binaries in the tarball, and then INSTALL THEM!
[01:17] <imbrandon> haha
[01:18] <minghua> broken build system?  or debian/rules doesn't run "make clean" in clean target?
[01:19] <Fujitsu> It just has those binaries in an example directory, and they don't get cleaned... So broken build system.
[01:19] <Fujitsu> 0.5.1-3 introduced two lines in debian/rules to get rid of them.
[01:19] <Fujitsu> Of course, they were hardcoded to python versions.
[01:20] <Fujitsu> So introduce python << 2.3 or >> 2.4, and you get nasty explosions on non-x86 buildds.
[01:21] <minghua> our MOTU wiki is so broken...  the MOTU/SyncRequests page redirects to some package-in-working table for dapper
[01:22] <imbrandon> broken , no , outdated , yes , wanna fix it ? hehehe
[01:22] <minghua> LaserJock: sure, resurrecting MOTU/SyncRequests sounds good to you?
[01:22] <minghua> or should I choose another name?
[01:22] <imbrandon> for the proceedure ?
[01:23] <Fujitsu> We need an automated system like that integrated with MoM... Otherwise it's not maintainable.
[01:23] <imbrandon> there is a /MOTU/Proceedures/blah stuff
[01:23] <imbrandon> minghua: ^^
[01:23] <LaserJock> ah yes, I remember that page
[01:23] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: you are very welcome to write one :-)
[01:23] <minghua> imbrandon: good, I'll look in there then
[01:23] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, if I had the MoM source I would.
[01:23] <Fujitsu> Who manage MoM?
[01:23] <LaserJock> Keybuck
[01:23] <imbrandon> keybuk
[01:24] <Fujitsu> OK!
[01:24] <crimsun> my god, this is even more broken than I imagined!
[01:24] <LaserJock> it's probably in his people.ubuntu.com somewhere
[01:24] <minghua> basicly I want it accessible from MOTU/Documentation, since that's what our channel topic says
[01:24] <LaserJock> ahh
[01:25] <StevenK> LaserJock: people.u.c and merges.u.c have two different IPs
[01:25] <imbrandon> minghua: sounds good, just ping LaserJock about any major changes i would assume since he's out psudo doc wiki motu-aholic guy ;)
[01:25] <imbrandon> s/out/our
[01:25] <minghua> imbrandon: and s/psudo/pseudo/ ?
[01:25] <imbrandon> yea shush ;)
[01:25] <imbrandon> lol
[01:26] <imbrandon> crimsun: what lib ?
[01:26] <crimsun> libexiv2-0.10
[01:27] <minghua> wiki people:  there is no MOTU/Procedures, only MOTU/Processes
[01:27] <imbrandon> minghua: yea my mistake
[01:27] <imbrandon> i was going from memory
[01:27] <imbrandon> processes
[01:27] <minghua> imbrandon: no problem, just to make sure I am looking at the correct place
[01:28] <imbrandon> right right
[01:28] <LaserJock> StevenK: put he should have his source in a bzr repo in people.u.c I would imagine
[01:28] <LaserJock> s/put/but/
[01:30] <Fujitsu> He doesn't.
[01:30] <imbrandon> yea then you'll probably have to ask him about it
[01:30] <imbrandon> you talking about makein a page for syncs like MoM ?
[01:31] <hikenboot> LaserJock, it doesnt mention anything about openoffice is there a way to check the chain of dependencies of packages it does require in a tree fashion to see what requires openoffice?
[01:31] <LaserJock> well, what was that script that Q-FUNK was talking about
[01:31] <LaserJock> hikenboot: you can do apt-get rdepends <package> to see what depends on that package
[01:32] <Fujitsu> I'll ask him at some point.
[01:33] <minghua> what is this automated system Fujitsu is trying to implement?
[01:33] <minghua> from context it looks like related to wiki?
[01:35] <LaserJock> I think Fujitsu is trying to automate sync requests, right?
[01:35] <imbrandon> some of them atleaste
[01:35] <minghua> MOTU/Processes/SyncRequests sounds good?
[01:36] <minghua> LaserJock, imbrandon: ^^^
[01:36] <imbrandon> looks ok to me
[01:36] <LaserJock> minghua: ok, and what are you going to put on there?
[01:36] <imbrandon> LaserJock: the contents of those emails i would imagine
[01:36] <imbrandon> telling how to file syncs
[01:36] <minghua> LaserJock: what I just asked from the channel
[01:37] <LaserJock> k, sounds good
[01:37] <LaserJock> we really, really, really need to clean up our wiki
[01:37] <minghua> yes, what imbrandon said, and that your need a MOTU to ack it, then subscribe the bug to u-a (these are not explained in the mail)
[01:37] <LaserJock> we have over 100 wiki pages
[01:38] <LaserJock> waaay too much
[01:38] <imbrandon> well the MOTU will sub the u-a ( but your a motu so you could do it ) hehe
[01:38] <LaserJock> most of them are outdated
[01:38] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yea i did some cleanup a while back and grew bored so i took a break and never went back
[01:38] <imbrandon> bad imbrandon brad
[01:38] <imbrandon> bad*
[01:40] <LaserJock> we need to really redo our MOTU/ page as well
[01:41] <minghua> imbrandon: does launchpad forbid a non-MOTU to subscribe u-a to a bug?
[01:41] <crimsun> no, it doesn't, which is not necessarily a good thing
[01:41] <imbrandon> minghua: no but its a good idea to let the MOTU do it once its been acd'd so it dosent spam the u-a list with changes
[01:41] <minghua> imbrandon: sure, I'll make that clear on the wiki
[01:42] <crimsun> yesterday we were discussing bringing a resolution before the TB that would permit Debian maintainers to request syncs without an MOTU ACK
[01:42] <imbrandon> crimsun: that sounds good to me, as i have atleaste 2 maintainers that email me when they ask for syncs to ack them
[01:43] <minghua> crimsun: that only applies to packages without ubuntu specific changes, I suppose?
[01:43] <imbrandon> s/maintainers/DD's
[01:43] <LaserJock> I wonder if it might be a good idea to put some effort into LP-interaction scripts
[01:43] <crimsun> as far as I know DDs already have that understanding
[01:43] <crimsun> (I could be misled, of course)
[01:44] <imbrandon> i dunno, i always do it just becouse we ( me and them ) thought it was required
[01:44] <imbrandon> heh
[01:44] <jsmidt> I've been checking Launchpad and the wiki, I am trying to find a page of requested packages for Ubuntu.  Is there a page devoted to this?
[01:44] <imbrandon> its always packages without ubuntu deltas
[01:45] <crimsun> yep, straight syncs
[01:45] <imbrandon> jsmidt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates ??
[01:46] <jsmidt> imbrandon, that would be it, thanks
[01:46] <crimsun> the more general one being https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New
[01:46] <crimsun> check WNPP in Debian first
[01:46] <imbrandon> and mentors
[01:47] <Fujitsu> Back...
[01:47] <hikenboot> LaserJock, I am not sure how to interpret the results of the rdepends it contains  a symbol similar to |  does this mean an either or dependency or somthing?
[01:47] <jsmidt> crimsun, I have checked wnpp, I've filled a few of those requests already
[01:48] <crimsun> (it would be slightly overkill to file them in Ubuntu, then)
[01:49] <crimsun> we need to shift from NEW to bugfixes. It's already getting really late.
[01:49] <imbrandon> really
[01:49] <Fujitsu> I'm thinking it would be a good idea to have something like SyncRequests embedded in MoM, so MOTUs can say `I'm doing this', or `This isn't possible because main is frozen and this depends on a new package in main', or general comments/statuses like that... That way people can tell if a MOTU has already looked at the package and deemed it not possible to merge/sync, and thus minimise work duplication.
[01:50] <jsmidt> crimsun, I guess that is true, I am just trying to get my bearing around the Ubuntu side of things.  So you guys out all the package requests in wnpp?
[01:51] <jsmidt> Or is that where people are told to request packages for Ubuntu too?
[01:51] <crimsun> jsmidt: if the package doesn't already exist in Debian (also not in WNPP), then it makes sense to request in Debian first
[01:52] <crimsun> people do also request in Ubuntu, but, personally, encouraging it to be filed in Debian first benefits all Debian-based distros
[01:54] <minghua> where can I report a bug against wiki?
[01:54] <crimsun> isn't the wiki editable?
[01:56] <LaserJock> minghua: bug the doc team about it
[01:56] <LaserJock> there might be a reason for it
[01:56] <azeem> it's the same for wiki.debian.org AFAIK
[01:56] <azeem> probably a wiki default?
[01:56] <minghua> LaserJock: aren't you in the doc team? ;-)
[01:57] <minghua> crimsun: no, I am  talking about the page with an editing window when you do the actual editing
[01:57] <minghua> I don't think that's a page can be edited by mortals
[01:57] <minghua> anyway that's a minor issue
[01:58] <LaserJock> minghua: yes, but I dont do a lot of wiki work
[01:58] <hikenboot> LaserJock, I am not sure how to interpret the results of the rdepends it contains  a symbol similar to |  does this mean an either or dependency or somthing?
[02:03] <imbrandon> hikenboot: most likely , | means or
[02:07] <minghua> crap, my edit got lost when I tried to preview and the preview page doesn't load and I pressed my browser back button
[02:08] <crimsun> are you on a nice 28.8 kbps dialup like I am?
[02:08] <LaserJock> yuck
[02:08] <LaserJock> I was on 28.8 at christmas
[02:08] <LaserJock> I could hardly even read my mail
[02:08] <minghua> "doesn't" is correct English, right?  (xchat-gnome's spellchecker highlights it)
[02:09] <Fujitsu> I'm now on 64kbps... Better than my 28.8 a two weeks ago.
[02:09] <Fujitsu> minghua, yes,
[02:09] <crimsun> yes it is
[02:10] <minghua> I am on a supposed "512 Kbps" DSL line
[02:10] <minghua> (I should really call my DSL company, the connection has been bad on and off for almost a month now)
[02:11] <crimsun> I think I'll move into a coffee shop w/ DSL
[02:11] <imbrandon> ;)
[02:12] <imbrandon> nooooooo heh
[02:12] <minghua> I think I'll do my wiki editing when I have a better connection
[02:13] <minghua> xchat-gnome says my lag is ~20s now
[02:13] <imbrandon> wow
[02:13] <zul> thats nothin
[02:14] <zul> i had up to 143 seconds a couple of times
[02:14] <lupine_85> line is a bit flaky every now and again ;)
[02:20] <zul> heh...i feel good about this build
[02:20] <imbrandon> xen ?
[02:20] <zul> yep 2.6.17 kernel
[02:20] <imbrandon> nice
[02:21] <lupine_85> dapper guest OS :D
[02:21] <imbrandon> brb
[02:21] <zul> edgy git as a base so we get all the nice little drivers and updates
[02:22] <lupine_85> btw, is there any specific reason why the motu mailing list is getting spammed so much?
[02:22] <LaserJock> it is?
[02:22] <zul> or the revu list?
[02:22] <lupine_85> the revu one, sorry
[02:23] <lupine_85> e.g. 12:37 today - [Motu-reviewers]   [-------] 
[02:23] <LaserJock> ah yes, the revu one does seem to get a lot
[02:24] <LaserJock> maybe it's on Microsoft's ML hitlist
[02:24] <LaserJock> "what?!? we can't allow community contribution in Linux!"
[02:24] <LaserJock> ;-)
[02:25] <minghua> actually now I am looking at it, xchat-gnome resets the lag counter at 30s
[02:25] <imbrandon> lol
[02:25] <minghua> so I have no idea what that means
[02:25] <Fujitsu> OH NO.
[02:25] <Fujitsu> That last email on -devel...
[02:26] <zul> LaserJock: i bet it has something to do with viagra
[02:26] <minghua> (which explains when my impression is that average lag is ~20s :-)
[02:26] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: the aliened OO.o one?
[02:27] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, yeah.
[02:28] <imbrandon> ohh gawd
[02:28] <LaserJock> yeah, that's sure the way to not get flamed ;-)
[02:28] <imbrandon> on the -devel list no doubt
[02:29] <hikenboot> apt-cache rdepends ttf-bitstream-vera has an interesting chain of dependencies including  openoffice
[02:29] <LaserJock> "who cares about updates? just alien your way to the lates crack" :-)
[02:30] <minghua> zul: no, it has nothing to do with viagra, or drugs in general
[02:38] <imbrandon> LaserJock: and the funny thing is , they probably dont have a "good" reason to update , other than "its a new version"
[02:40] <LaserJock> yes, I must confess I was much that way before I started working on Ubuntu
[02:40] <LaserJock> I always assumed the latest possible was the best
[02:40] <imbrandon> heh me too before not to long ago
[02:41] <imbrandon> its part of that MS seeping though
[02:41] <LaserJock> now that I see software/distro development in action I have a little better understanding of things
[02:43] <imbrandon> when there is time to play with it
[02:44] <imbrandon> like kde4 on osx, its utterly useless for the most part, but its fun to see the compiler churn away ;)
[02:44] <LaserJock> well, I stopped "using" my Ubuntu computers about the time I became a MOTU
[02:44] <LaserJock> ;-)
[02:44] <imbrandon> hahaha
[02:44] <crimsun> what do you use instead, then?
[02:44] <imbrandon> i keep one i "use" the rest are play machines ;)
[02:44] <LaserJock> well, I spend ~12 hrs of my day on OS X
[02:45] <LaserJock> but even if it was Ubuntu
[02:45] <LaserJock> I wouldn't "use" it really either
[02:45] <LaserJock> all I do is develop
[02:45] <LaserJock> my work doesn't really demand computer use
[02:45] <LaserJock> and I'm never home
[02:45] <imbrandon> heh
[02:45] <LaserJock> so the only reason I'm on a computer is to work on Ubuntu
[02:46] <imbrandon> from osx ;)
[02:46] <LaserJock> yep
[02:46] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:46] <imbrandon> ssh is your friend
[02:46] <LaserJock> but since I ssh into my Ubuntu boxen, I'm technically working on Ubuntu too
[02:46] <imbrandon> yea heh
[02:46] <LaserJock> I have one work computer that I have edgy on that I use for pbuilding
[02:47] <imbrandon> when i'm on osx its with a brower running and a terminal, everything else i run from ssh
[02:47] <imbrandon> browser*
[02:47] <LaserJock> well, I'm sad to say it in a way, but I really like OS X
[02:47] <Fujitsu> Why do you guys use OS X?
[02:47] <Fujitsu> Ah..
[02:47] <Fujitsu> Why?
[02:48] <LaserJock> I use OS X basically because my advisor bought everybody in the lab an iMac
[02:48] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: honestly? its a no hassle *nix box, stuff "just works"
[02:48] <LaserJock> and kinda expects us to use OS X
[02:48] <Fujitsu> Ow..
[02:48] <LaserJock> I'm probably more productive on OS X
[02:49] <imbrandon> ubuntu is very very very very close to just working though, but thats why we are here , to make it that way ;)
[02:49] <LaserJock> it's fast, looks nice, has all the features I need, lots of open source software
[02:49] <crimsun> I'm far more productive on a Debian-based distro, because I'm at least partly familiar w/ its(their) quirks and workarounds
[02:49] <LaserJock> yeah
[02:49] <imbrandon> plus it gives you good perspective to use other os's once in a while
[02:49] <LaserJock> it's taken me 6months+ to get used to OS X
[02:49] <crimsun> for instance, I don't even use bash completion; I just use asterisks
[02:49] <imbrandon> heh crimsun in that respect i'm lost on windows
[02:50] <LaserJock> well, windows is absolutely horrible at work
[02:50] <Fujitsu> It's great, I can't bear to use Windows. The command-line functionality is almost NULL, and it's just so inflexible.
[02:50] <LaserJock> printing is aweful
[02:50] <LaserJock> networking isn't that great
[02:50] <imbrandon> yea printing SUCKS on any OS imho
[02:50] <crimsun> Fujitsu: vastly improved w/ Vista's Monad (at least from reading the O'Reilly book)
[02:51] <Fujitsu> crimsun, aha... I'm still not going to use it though :P
[02:51] <crimsun> I'll gladly use it and putty.
[02:51] <LaserJock> at least printing is a breeze with OS X and Ubuntu
[02:51] <LaserJock> with Windows it's a nightmare
[02:51] <imbrandon> LaserJock: please come setup my printer/network the hehe
[02:52] <imbrandon> i have all ubuntu and osx boxen and cant get printing to work the way i want for the fskin life of me
[02:52] <LaserJock> yeah, yeah
[02:52] <LaserJock> apparently I"m in some printing twilight zone
[02:52] <imbrandon> heh honestly i have given up on it
[02:52] <LaserJock> I've never had much luck with Windows printing
[02:52] <LaserJock> but with Ubuntu it's sooo easy
[02:52] <LaserJock> and OS X is second easiest
[02:52] <imbrandon> yea i dont like it on any os, its all tooo hard, should be to me just 2 clicks and done
[02:53] <bddebian> Damn perl4caml FTBFSs too
[02:53] <LaserJock> well, it's more or less like that for me
[02:53] <imbrandon> LaserJock: do you share 1 printer and many boxes ?
[02:53] <LaserJock> yeah
[02:53] <imbrandon> hrm , i might pick your brain some other day
[02:54] <LaserJock> at work we have a laserjet with jet direct
[02:54] <imbrandon> serouisly i have given up on it, i tried for 3 weeks to get it right
[02:54] <LaserJock> at home I have a printer hooked up to my desktop
[02:54] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, I've found they work really well.
[02:54] <crimsun> imbrandon: mind if I direct a user running the dapper-backports of amarok 1.4.3 to you?
[02:54] <imbrandon> i can barely get the localcomputer to print
[02:54] <LaserJock> that I print to from my wireless laptop as well
[02:54] <imbrandon> crimsun: sure
[02:56] <LaserJock> imbrandon: what kind of printer do you have?
[02:56] <imbrandon> hp psc500
[02:56] <LaserJock> really?
[02:56] <LaserJock> how odd
[02:56] <Fujitsu> I've got a psc1210, works fine.
[02:56] <LaserJock> I've always stuck to HP printers and I've never had a problem
[02:56] <imbrandon> yea i get it to work localy but sharing sucks
[02:56] <LaserJock> I've got a psc1350
[02:57] <imbrandon> i cant print from windows boxesn or osx or other ubuntu boxen
[02:57] <LaserJock> how odd
[02:57] <imbrandon> really ANY remomte
[02:57] <LaserJock> I can print from XP or Ubuntu to XP or Ubuntu
[02:57] <LaserJock> both machines dual-boot
[02:57] <imbrandon> wow
[02:58] <imbrandon> maybe its a kde printer setup thing
[02:58] <imbrandon> i dunno
[02:58] <LaserJock> hmm, could be
[02:58] <imbrandon> the box with the printer only runs kde
[02:58] <LaserJock> I think I've mostly set them up from the gnome config
[02:58] <crimsun> I think it's a test for the raging ubuntuaholic MOTU
[02:58] <LaserJock> I actually need to set mine up in KDE
[02:58] <imbrandon> infact the only gnome install i have is a test breezy partition on a amd64
[02:58] <imbrandon> heh
[02:58] <LaserJock> test?
[02:59] <LaserJock> it's called "The wife need to print her recipes NOW"
[02:59] <crimsun> like I said, a test. :P
[03:00] <LaserJock> yep, the wife test
[03:00] <imbrandon> heheh
[03:00] <LaserJock> there is only 1 site that keeps me from Windows freedom
[03:01] <crimsun> if you say it's Flash-based...
[03:01] <LaserJock> stupid topsecretrecipes.com
[03:01] <imbrandon> LaserJock: whats the url ?
[03:01] <LaserJock> flash
[03:01] <imbrandon> heh
[03:01] <bddebian> Damn I'm having no luck with merges today :-(
[03:01] <crimsun> bddebian: how?
[03:01] <LaserJock> well, I installed flash, but the site refuses to recognize it
[03:01] <bddebian> crimsun: A lot of FTBFSs
[03:02] <LaserJock> bddebian: obviously you aren't working on the right merges ;-)
[03:02] <imbrandon> LaserJock: url ?
[03:02] <crimsun> requires a newer version than we have
[03:02] <crimsun> Flash 8+
[03:02] <LaserJock> imbrandon: www.topsecretrecipes.com
[03:03] <bddebian> crimsun: Not for perl4caml anyway
[03:03] <bddebian> Oh, nm
[03:03] <LaserJock> crimsun: ah, is that the problem
[03:03] <bddebian> LaserJock: No shix :-)
[03:03] <LaserJock> there was another site that had a problem, but I was able to click a "enter anyway" link and it was fine
[03:04] <LaserJock> this one has no such link and you can't do anything non-flash
[03:04] <LaserJock> stupid web designers >:(
[03:04] <imbrandon> heh well flash 9 will be out soonish
[03:04] <imbrandon> ;(
[03:04] <Fujitsu> Should LP really be showing bugs that are closed in Ubuntu but open in Debian in motuscience's +subscribedbugs?
[03:04] <LaserJock> yep
[03:04] <LaserJock> well
[03:04] <LaserJock> our friend filed a complaint about that with the LP guys
[03:05] <LaserJock> techincally the Debian task is still open so it shows up
[03:07] <LaserJock> it'd be nice if there was something in we could do in the UI to get rid of them
[03:08] <LaserJock> heh, I've made it the whole day without using thunderbird
[03:10] <imbrandon> LaserJock: hehe
[03:10] <LaserJock> now I just need to work out where my @ubuntu.com mail is going
[03:11] <crimsun> Preferred e-mail on LP
[03:11] <Fujitsu> Do I have to ping someone to get my @ubuntu.com address?
[03:11] <LaserJock> crimsun: if only :-)
[03:11] <crimsun> Fujitsu: you're a member already, so it should be automagic.
[03:11] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: if its been synced it should be lp-id@ubuntu.com
[03:11] <Fujitsu> I've been a member for 18 days, and when I tried two days ago it still didn't exit.
[03:12] <Fujitsu> *exist
[03:12] <LaserJock> I switched my preffered email address (gmail needs procmail support ;-) )
[03:12] <LaserJock> but now LP mail goes to my preffered
[03:12] <LaserJock> but @ubuntu.com goes to the old one
[03:13] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yea it has to be manualy synced, i had that problem
[03:13] <imbrandon> its not automatic
[03:13] <LaserJock> I've done it in the past
[03:13] <LaserJock> I wonder what happened
[03:13] <imbrandon> they asked me to file a bug against lp and ask for a sync
[03:13] <imbrandon> one sec lemme see if i can find my old bug
[03:13] <LaserJock> yeah, kiko sent a rt ticket for me
[03:14] <imbrandon> yea
[03:15] <Fujitsu> Bug #56305, I presume.
[03:15] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56305 in launchpad "email alias sync" [Untriaged,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/56305
[03:15] <imbrandon> yea thats it
[03:16] <minghua> we need to file a bug to sync @ubuntu.com address?
[03:16] <Fujitsu> minghua, looks like it.
[03:16] <imbrandon> file a bug like that and subscribe canonical-sysadmins
[03:16] <imbrandon> LaserJock / Fujitsu  ^^
[03:16] <minghua> . o O { bugs are cheap these days... }
[03:16] <Fujitsu> OK, I shall. Thanks imbrandon :)
[03:17] <LaserJock> gotta love how LP is moving forward ;-)
[03:17] <imbrandon> heh
[03:17] <imbrandon> it /should/ be automatic imho but i guess they have their resaons
[03:18] <LaserJock> well, it's more likely a bug
[03:44] <LaserJock> \o/ my email is fixed
[03:45] <Fujitsu> :)
[03:45] <Fujitsu> motureviewers is obsolete, right?
[03:46] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:47] <crimsun> not really
[03:49] <LaserJock> the difference between motureviewers and ubuntu-universe-sponsors is a little fuzzy
[03:50] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, I can't really see a difference.
[03:52] <lastnode> imbrandon, ping?
[03:52] <imbrandon> pong
[03:53] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yay \o/
[03:54] <lastnode> imbrandon, could we get those bots in #upstream? the mailing list is being a pita, and it'd be great to have logs to point people to. no hurry, just thought i'd remind you.
[03:54] <imbrandon> lastnode: yea i'll ping Seveas when he is awake about it, its not exactly his timezone atm ;)
[03:54] <imbrandon> still 4am where he is ;)
[03:55] <lastnode> sure, thanks imbrandon. ill say you asked me to?
[03:55] <imbrandon> no no i can ping him for you, but it will just be a few hours
[03:55] <imbrandon> or your more than welcome to, just tell him what your upto and why you want the bots in there etc
[03:56] <lastnode> imbrandon, no, ill leave it to you. :-)
[03:56] <lastnode> much thanks
[03:56] <imbrandon> ;)
[03:56] <imbrandon> np
[04:00] <bddebian> Damnit, what man level is for functions such as stat()?
[04:00] <StevenK> 2
[04:00] <bddebian> Hmm
[04:00] <StevenK> steven@liquified:~% man 2 stat
[04:00] <StevenK> Reformatting stat(2), please wait...
[04:00] <StevenK> etc
[04:01] <bddebian> Hmm, I get nothing :-(
[04:01] <minghua> 2   System calls (functions provided by the kernel)
[04:01] <Fujitsu> Have you manpages-dev?
[04:01] <minghua> makes sense
[04:01] <StevenK> Is manpages-dev installed?
[04:01] <bddebian> Hmm, probably not :-)
[04:01] <Fujitsu> Nyahah.
[04:02] <Fujitsu> StevenK, you're the Australian DD here... Who in Melbourne can I get my key signed by?
[04:02] <Fujitsu> Hey, I'll hopefully be a MOTU soon :P
[04:02] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Let me query db.d.o
[04:02] <Fujitsu> I already looked, but it just says there in Aus, no specifics I can find.
[04:02] <StevenK> Yes, but you don't have a login.
[04:03] <Fujitsu> Ah, true.
[04:03] <StevenK> I can get the specifics
[04:03] <minghua> see, super-leet powahs :-)
[04:03] <Fujitsu> Haha.
[04:03] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Tyson Richard Dowd <tyson@debian.org>, with a postcode of 3068
[04:04] <StevenK> Helen Faulkner <helen@debian.org>
[04:04] <StevenK> Chris Leishman <masklin@debian.org>
[04:04] <StevenK> Nathan Scott <nathans@debian.org>, in Camberwell
[04:04] <StevenK> Hrrrrm
[04:05] <Fujitsu> Camberwell... That's not bad.
[04:12] <LaserJock> minghua: on OS X it is -d for --max-depth
[04:13] <imbrandon> hrm you know what, i was sitting here thingking. if i had enough money i would buy the IP for mp3's and flash and gpl the technologies, but honestly would that even help
[04:14] <crimsun> somewhat but not ultimately.
[04:14] <crimsun> to fix things we'd still need access to the source.
[04:14] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I'm sure that's crossed Mark's mind
[04:14] <imbrandon> heh probably
[04:15] <imbrandon> mp3 IP probably wouldent be that expensive ( relitively ) but i bet adobe want a penny for flash
[04:15] <LaserJock> mhm
[04:16] <imbrandon> wasnt a pretty penny*
[04:16] <imbrandon> wants , gah i give up
[04:16] <minghua> LaserJock: your sure it's not a BSD thing instead of OS X thing?
[04:16] <imbrandon> command line osx tools are bsd based
[04:16] <LaserJock> but then you could just pay the same amount of money for opensource development
[04:16] <imbrandon> LaserJock: very true
[04:17] <imbrandon> but that wouldent get arroudn the mp3 patent issues
[04:17] <ryanakca> can someone please review the kde-icons-crystal-diamond http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3238 ?
[04:18] <LaserJock> imbrandon: sure, spending money on development and promotion of an open source alternative
[04:18] <LaserJock> like .ogg or something
[04:19] <imbrandon> there is the thing to getting people to switch though liek recreate all flash pages in something else and converting music collections and then getting portable players etc etc etc etc
[04:19] <imbrandon> man it just sucks
[04:20] <imbrandon> i wish i was a bajillionaire heh
[04:20] <LaserJock> I don't, really
[04:20] <LaserJock> millionare would work ;-)
[04:20] <imbrandon> ;)
[04:21] <imbrandon> heheh okie
[04:21] <bddebian> heh
[04:21] <bddebian> Laser_away: Don't you know that Wal-Mart is Eviiil? :-)
[04:22] <minghua> some one needs to lobby Apple to support .ogg on iPods :-(
[04:23] <imbrandon> or promote rockbox/ipl
[04:23] <imbrandon> ;)
[04:23] <imbrandon> my ipod nano plays ogg and mpegs ;)
[04:24] <imbrandon> and doom and , well anything the 75mhz arm processor can handle running on a linux 2.4 kernel
[04:24] <bddebian> If I do foo = stat(bar, baz);  and I just want to make sure the file exists can I just if (foo) ?
[04:25] <imbrandon> test -e foo ?
[04:25] <bddebian> Uhm, in C? :-)
[04:25] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:26] <lupine_85> doom on an ipod?
[04:26] <lupine_85> now that is cool :)
[04:27] <imbrandon> doom, hexen, 007, tetris , pong, lots of games ;)
[04:28] <imbrandon> lupine_85: http://www.imbrandon.com/misc/kubuntu_on_ipod_nano.jpg
[04:30] <imbrandon> and http://ipodlinux.org/Doom
[04:30] <imbrandon> ( video at the bottom )
[04:31] <StevenK> imbrandon: You need a better shot of that.
[04:31] <lupine_85> cool :)
[04:31] <imbrandon> StevenK: yea that one is quite blurry , but my camera sucks
[04:31] <StevenK> Buy a better camera. :-P
[04:31] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:32] <imbrandon> mine some cheap one from walmart for like 20$
[04:32] <StevenK> Gee, I wonder why it was blurry
[04:32] <imbrandon> kodack easy share something
[04:32] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:32] <StevenK> Ahhh, my grandmother has that camera!
[04:32] <imbrandon> i dont take many pictures ;)
[04:33] <StevenK> Now, that says something.
[04:33] <imbrandon> lol
[04:33] <StevenK> Er, grandmother in law, even
[04:33] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:34] <imbrandon> easy share dx4530, just looked
[04:34] <imbrandon> cheapie ;)
[04:35] <imbrandon> http://www.digitalcamera-hq.com/digital-cameras/kodak-easyshare-dx4530_reviews.html
[04:36] <imbrandon> wow that says $280
[04:36] <imbrandon> i got mine for like 20 or 30 heh
[04:38] <imbrandon> wow that is nuts , maybe mine was mis priced when i bought it
[04:39] <imbrandon> becouse they all online say over $200 bux
[04:39] <StevenK> Or it fell off a truck.
[04:39] <StevenK> Hence the blurrynes
[04:39] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:39] <Fujitsu> Hahah.
[04:39] <StevenK> Er, blurryness
[04:41] <imbrandon> hrm i'm trying to run that "top ten" command Mithrandir put on his blog and it only returns "1 History" ....
[04:41] <imbrandon> history 1|awk '{print $2}'|awk 'BEGIN {FS="|"} {print $1}'|sort|uniq -c | sort -nr |head -n 10
[04:42] <Fujitsu> Same.
[04:42] <imbrandon> and bash gurus know whats wrong ?
[04:42] <bddebian> Yeah, that's hideous :-)
[04:42] <imbrandon> err cli/dash ;)
[04:42] <imbrandon> lol bddebian
[04:43] <StevenK> Drop the 1
[04:43] <StevenK> history | awk
[04:43] <imbrandon> ahh
[04:43] <Fujitsu> Ah, that's better.
[04:43] <StevenK> Stupid bash shell
[04:43] <Fujitsu> Thankyou almighty StevenK :)
[04:43] <Fujitsu> Borne Again Shell Shell!
[04:43] <Fujitsu> *Bourne
[04:43] <StevenK> Oh damn, I need to stop helping the common folk.
[04:43] <StevenK> :-P
[04:43] <imbrandon> heh thanks StevenK
[04:44] <imbrandon> i hate bash scripting tbh
[04:44] <imbrandon> but its usefull at times
[04:44] <StevenK> I love shell scripting
[04:44] <imbrandon> well i love what you can do, i hate trying to understand it
[04:44] <Fujitsu> cd, ls, vim, apt-cache, sudo, debuild, mkdir, debdiff, mv, ssh.
[04:44] <StevenK> Expect when I want something that would be easy if I had HASHES
[04:46] <imbrandon> cd , ls , sudo , nano , mplayer , rm , make , debuild , cp , upgrade ( upgrade is a shell script for apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade )
[04:46] <Fujitsu> urgh, nano.
[04:46] <imbrandon> but this is only a week only install
[04:46] <imbrandon> sooo
[04:47] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: yup the editor of kings
[04:47] <Fujitsu> What would be nice would be elimination of sudo from the start of things.
[04:48] <imbrandon> i should have run it on my old install
[04:48] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Then pipe it through sed
[04:48] <Fujitsu> StevenK, I suppose so.
[04:48] <imbrandon> s/sudo//
[04:49] <StevenK> s/sudo //
[04:49] <imbrandon> s/sudo\ //
[04:49] <Fujitsu> Or s/^sudo //
[04:49] <StevenK> history |awk '{print $2}'| sed -e 's/sudo //' | awk 'BEGIN {FS="|"} {print $1}'|sort|uniq -c | sort -nr |head -n 10
[04:50] <Fujitsu> Ah, -e, I forgot that.
[04:50] <StevenK> -e isn't required
[04:50] <StevenK> And I'm also unsure if I've put it in the right place
[04:50] <Fujitsu> Hm, it's still not working.
[04:50] <imbrandon> that dont work
[04:50] <imbrandon> probably after the second awk
[04:51] <Fujitsu> There we go.
[04:51] <Fujitsu> No, like so:
[04:51] <minghua> Hmm, I have "exit" at number three
[04:51] <Fujitsu> history | sed 's/sudo //' | awk '{print $2}'| sed -e 's/sudo //' | awk 'BEGIN {FS="|"} {print $1}'|sort|uniq -c | sort -nr |head -n 10
[04:51] <Fujitsu> Oops.
[04:51] <Fujitsu> I left something in there, the second one shouldn't be there.
[04:51] <imbrandon> heh
[04:55] <imbrandon> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/24606
[05:00] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:16] <Plug> imbrandon: the new name?
[05:16] <imbrandon> of edgy+1 , its getting close to time to announce it ( based on past announcements )
[05:17] <imbrandon> historicly its been about a month before the release
[05:17] <imbrandon> and we're what 33 days out ?
[05:18] <StevenK> imbrandon: Well, go on, send Mark an email to hurry him up.
[05:19] <StevenK> :-P
[05:19] <imbrandon> heh
[05:20] <imbrandon> ??????? frogs
[05:20] <imbrandon> ?????? ferrit
[05:20] <imbrandon> hum
[05:23] <imbrandon> fierce falcon
[05:23] <imbrandon> that would be cool
[05:24] <StevenK> Just as long as it isn't "Funky <something>"
[05:25] <imbrandon> flashy firefly
[05:25] <imbrandon> heh
[05:25] <imbrandon> StevenK: +1
[05:25] <imbrandon> lol
[05:25] <imbrandon> if it was we would need a disco theme walpaper
[05:26] <imbrandon> and a mascot in bellbottoms
[05:26] <StevenK> NO, NO we *DON'T*
[05:26] <imbrandon> lol
[05:26] <StevenK> ARGH, not helping!
[05:26] <imbrandon> lol
[05:26] <imbrandon> i like falcon or firefly thoguh personaly
[05:28] <bddebian> Frisky Ferrett, I like it
[05:28] <StevenK> FRISKY!
[05:28] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:28] <StevenK> We can't call a release that!
[05:28] <StevenK> Keep calling them out, I'm reloading
[05:28] <imbrandon> hahaha
[05:29] <imbrandon> Flamboyant Frogs !?!
[05:29] <bddebian> Friggin' Frog?
[05:29] <StevenK> FRIGGIN'?!?!
[05:29] <bddebian> :)
[05:30] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:30] <bddebian> Flatulent Frog? ;-P
[05:30] <StevenK> We may as well call it "Fucking Faggots" and get it all out.
[05:30] <imbrandon> Flakey Finch !?!
[05:30] <imbrandon> bwhahahahahahahaha
[05:30] <imbrandon> omg
[05:30] <StevenK> Oh look, I broke imbrandon
[05:31] <imbrandon> heh
[05:31] <bddebian> I will never be a fucking C programmer I swear :'-(
[05:31] <StevenK> bddebian: That's a bit long for a release name.
[05:31] <StevenK> Oh, wait
[05:31] <bddebian> Heh
[05:31] <imbrandon> StevenK: hahahaha
[05:32] <imbrandon> freaky .....
[05:32] <imbrandon> flyby falcon
[05:32] <imbrandon> hum
[05:33] <bddebian> Fantastic Fujitsu
[05:33] <Laser_away> oh yeah
[05:33] <minghua> bddebian: that's a nice one :-)
[05:33] <StevenK> Yeah, let's name the release after someone who isn't even a member yet
[05:33] <bddebian> pfft
[05:34] <imbrandon> Fujitsu: is a member now
[05:34] <imbrandon> ;)
[05:34] <LaserJock> -doc already had Fabulous Flamingo
[05:34] <crimsun> (well on his way to MOTU, too)
[05:34] <imbrandon> lol
[05:34] <StevenK> imbrandon: Shush!
[05:34] <bddebian> Flamboyent Flamingo
[05:34] <LaserJock> oh yeah
[05:34] <imbrandon> crimsun: yup, i'll definately be cheering him on
[05:34] <LaserJock> Fabulous Flamboyant Flamingo
[05:35] <imbrandon> Fantastic Fink !?!
[05:35] <LaserJock> to OS Xish
[05:35] <imbrandon> heh
[05:35] <minghua> so the codename for edgy+1 is supposed to be announced soon?
[05:36] <whiprush> minghua: porbably around the time of the developer summit
[05:36] <whiprush> november-ish
[05:36] <imbrandon> minghua: historicly yes, its always beena bout a month before release , but no one knows exactly but sabdfl
[05:36] <StevenK> About a month before the *previous* release
[05:37] <imbrandon> right
[05:37] <minghua> now I am getting different answers :-(
[05:37] <imbrandon> minghua: no one knows but sabdfl , but if we go on whats happened in the past it will be in the next few days
[05:38] <minghua> whiprush: November will be after edgy is released, won't it?
[05:38] <whiprush> yeah
[05:39] <imbrandon> heya whiprush
[05:39] <whiprush> hey brandon
[05:39] <whiprush> hey are you coming to ohio?
[05:39] <imbrandon> not this time ;( i wanted to
[05:39] <whiprush> damn
[05:39] <whiprush> next year then
[05:39] <whiprush> it's sweet
[05:39] <imbrandon> yup yup
[05:39] <imbrandon> you there now ?
[05:40] <whiprush> no, it's next weekend
[05:40] <minghua> Ubuntu's code name is usually "an adjective minghua doesn't know" + "an animal minghua haven't heard of", so whatever :-P
[05:40] <StevenK> Hah
[05:40] <imbrandon> minghua: hehe
[05:40] <imbrandon> minghua: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames
[05:41] <imbrandon> haha who put "
[05:41] <imbrandon> Fire up the crackpipes! "
[05:41] <imbrandon> for the eft descrip ?
[05:41] <imbrandon> lol
[05:41] <minghua> yeah, I've heard of badger, but I don't think I've ever seen one
[05:42] <minghua> as for drake, even Ubuntu developers can't decide it's a dragon or a duck, so... :-)
[05:42] <imbrandon> drake is a small dragon
[05:42] <crimsun> according to mdz, dragons don't exist.
[05:43] <imbrandon> there are real dragons , just not ones like in fairy tails, komodo dragons and some others
[05:43] <imbrandon> komodo dragons are very poisonius iirc
[05:44] <imbrandon> http://images.google.com/images?q=komodo+dragon&hl=en&lr=&pwst=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
[05:47] <minghua> komodo dragon looks just like an armadillo to me :-)
[05:48] <imbrandon> .... only bigger and no shell ....
[05:48] <imbrandon> and poisonus heh
[05:49] <minghua> western dragons all look to weird to me, and reminds me of dinosaurs
[05:49] <minghua> chinese dragons are completely different
[05:50] <LaserJock> imbrandon: drake is a duck you dope ;-)
[05:50] <imbrandon> LaserJock: draks are also small dragons dodo ;)
[05:50] <imbrandon> drakes*
[05:51] <minghua> chinese dragons are like http://www2.nkansai.ne.jp/users/harumi/wa1.htm (shame it's a japanese web page)
[05:56] <imbrandon> heh
[06:03] <imbrandon> crimsun: is there a funky license or something with the imbjava that it cant be put into multi/universe ?
[06:03] <imbrandon> ibm java*
[06:07] <imbrandon> ugh people never cease to amaze me
[06:08] <LaserJock> OO.o via checkinstall? ;-)
[06:08] <imbrandon> and cant even leave comments on his blog, ........
[06:08] <imbrandon> no a post on planet.d.o
[06:08] <imbrandon> hahah that too though
[06:09] <imbrandon> LaserJock: http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/log/?200609232000  <-- thats just ignorant imho, i mean if he dosent have time , fine, or the will to do it fine, but he wasnt in it for the money to begin with , so why whinge now
[06:10] <minghua> huh?  I was thinking you can't go lower than alien on OO.o...
[06:11] <imbrandon> thats like me saying, well Riddell ( or insert some other canonical employeee ) gets pay'd to work on kdelibs , so i wont , even though uptill now i did it becouse i love the distro
[06:11] <imbrandon> leaste in my eyes
[06:12] <imbrandon> maybe i'm just reading it wrong , but seems very , ummm wrong
[06:15] <StevenK> imbrandon: That argument has been going on in Debian for the last three weeks.
[06:16] <imbrandon> i can imagine
[06:16] <imbrandon> i just now seen it on p.d.o
[06:16] <imbrandon> i dont read that planet every day
[06:16] <StevenK> "People are getting paid for working on Debian, why can't I?"
[06:16] <StevenK> Um, we seem to deal.
[06:16] <imbrandon> exactly
[06:17] <StevenK> Canonical pays some of the core developers, and it doesn't affect how much you and I want to contribute.
[06:17] <crimsun> imbrandon: I don't know precisely. I'd love to see it in dapper-commercial (alongside sun's, for instance)
[06:17] <imbrandon> i mean dont get me wrong, if canonical ever had a contract that i could fullfill i would jump on it, but thats not why i do this day to day
[06:17] <imbrandon> later StevenK
[06:18] <imbrandon> crimsun: yea really, maybe we could poke someone about it next week
[06:18] <imbrandon> ( someone that could make the contacts etc )
[06:18] <crimsun> it would be great for ppc users at least
[06:18] <imbrandon> yup
[06:18] <imbrandon> its realy the only java worth anything on ppc
[06:21] <crimsun> Well, Joey certainly is entitled to his opinion. I find that it's nice to offset my "day job" from Debian+Ubuntu tasks. Heck, I even pledge to dunc-tank because I have as much of a desire to see Ubuntu succeed as I do Debian.
[06:22] <crimsun> It's pathetic that people choose to malign Ubuntu. I don't know of people involved with Ubuntu that malign Debian.
[06:22] <whiprush> crimsun: ++
[06:23] <imbrandon> crimsun: yea , i mean he can, hell we call can, i can even see him saying he dosent have the time/desire/whatever anymore, hell most of us are volenteers , but to say becouse someone else is getting payed that you wont do it is just wrong imho , it means to me that you were doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with
[06:23] <whiprush> I think that article today was pretty crappy.
[06:23] <imbrandon> whiprush: what one ?
[06:23] <whiprush> I think debian today is stronger than ever.
[06:23] <whiprush> the one about debian dying
[06:24] <crimsun> I utterly disagree about Debian dying. Organisational shifts != death throes.
[06:24] <imbrandon> i dident see that one, but i dont think that for a second, debian looks strong to me, its in a bit of upheaval but all groups go though that , dosent make them weak or dyeing
[06:24] <imbrandon> crimsun: ++
[06:24] <whiprush> crimsun: I agree
[06:24] <whiprush> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7543606709.html
[06:24] <whiprush> that's the article
[06:24] <imbrandon> thanks
[06:25] <imbrandon> , yea i think i'm gonna though some of my thoughts on my blog tonight
[06:25] <whiprush> I'm of the opinion that things like ubuntu made debian popular
[06:25] <imbrandon> i havent bloged in a while
[06:25] <whiprush> and hanging out with debian guys
[06:25] <whiprush> I think the project is the healthiest it's been in a long time
[06:25] <whiprush> so I don't know what that guy's problem is
[06:25] <imbrandon> i dont know much about its past but i do see it as very strong atm
[06:26] <imbrandon> past as in pre 1 year ago
[06:26] <whiprush> before ubuntu I was using debian for years.
[06:27] <whiprush> to say debian is "dying" right now is just some dude wanting web hits
[06:27] <imbrandon> i admit i was a suse guy for the most part, but , well it sucked lol
[06:27] <whiprush> sure, there are issues, but there have always been issues
[06:27] <imbrandon> till the last year or so
[06:27] <whiprush> eve3ry distro has issues
[06:27] <imbrandon> and always will be
[06:27] <crimsun> diversity normally translates to healthy progress
[06:27] <imbrandon> exactly look at gentoo atm, they are in more turmoil than debian but i dont think they are dying either
[06:28] <whiprush> the thing is linux web sites always look for conflict
[06:28] <whiprush> that's how they sell web hits.
[06:28] <LaserJock> bad news is good news ;-)
[06:28] <imbrandon> yea
[06:28] <whiprush> indeed
[06:28] <crimsun> maybe s/linux//g ;-)
[06:28] <imbrandon> heh
[06:29] <minghua> I think that's the general rule for journalism? :-)
[06:29] <whiprush> two years ago I got wasted with David Nusinow at mako's place, just having a good time.
[06:29] <whiprush> no one cares about that
[06:29] <whiprush> or how dave worked with guys like daniel to do X stuff for ubuntu
[06:29] <whiprush> because it's not popular
[06:29] <whiprush> people would rather run stories about how debian and Ubuntu hate each other
[06:29] <whiprush> which is crap.
[06:30] <LaserJock> or people like me who came to know Debian through Ubuntu and now I think Debian rocks
[06:30] <imbrandon> exactly
[06:30] <whiprush> LaserJock: I am the other way around.
[06:30] <imbrandon> LaserJock: ++
[06:30] <imbrandon> i'm in LaserJock shoes i came to know debian through ubuntu
[06:30] <imbrandon> and dont see why all the fuss tbh
[06:30] <LaserJock> I can see some of why
[06:30] <whiprush> LaserJock: I still consider myself a debian user, though I use ubuntu, and I've met some really kickass debian developers and got to work with them on stuff.
[06:31] <LaserJock> but in the end people just need to suck it up and do their work
[06:31] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yea i see SOME of it, there are always problems , but not to the extent of hate
[06:31] <whiprush> I think it's really crap that some people use the differences between the projects to make a rift between them.
[06:31] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:31] <imbrandon> yea
[06:32] <LaserJock> the important thing for me personally, was when I realized that DDs opinions are the opinions of all DDs
[06:32] <LaserJock> aren't
[06:32] <Burgundavia> whiprush: because conflict sells
[06:32] <LaserJock> rather
[06:32] <whiprush> When I go to a show I drink with DDs and Ubuntu people.
[06:32] <minghua> I always have the feeling that many of the bad words in Debian are really against people instead of things
[06:32] <bddebian> I always kind of considered Ubuntu, the "desktop" arm of Debian
[06:32] <whiprush> Burgundavia: yeah, but screw those people.
[06:32] <minghua> there seems to be old feuds
[06:32] <imbrandon> what really gets me too is you dont see them ( as in the nay-sayers not all of debian, i have met alot of kick ass DD's ) saying the same thing about xandros, freespire,knoppix,etc etc etc
[06:33] <whiprush> bddebian: I consider ubuntu a nice server arm of debian too.
[06:33] <bddebian> whiprush: Well I haven't delved there too deeply so I can't do that :-)
[06:33] <LaserJock> I don't even know what to consider Ubuntu
[06:33] <imbrandon> yea more like a nice ootb debian
[06:33] <whiprush> bddebian: I have lots of ubuntu servers
[06:34] <bddebian> imbrandon: That's a better perspective
[06:34] <crimsun> people just enjoy stirring up stuff ;-)
[06:34] <crimsun> (I'm just as guilty)
[06:34] <LaserJock> mhm
[06:34] <LaserJock> I try not to for sure
[06:34] <imbrandon> i try not to, i cant say i never do, hell i think i started this convo LOL
[06:35] <bddebian> heh
[06:35] <imbrandon> we're all human , but , man some things just hit me wrong
[06:35] <LaserJock> well, maybe it's not so much stirring things up that's the problem
[06:35] <LaserJock> as it being a constructive thing
[06:35] <LaserJock> I feel like in Ubuntu things often get stirred about
[06:35] <LaserJock> but the goal being to have a stronger product at the end
[06:36] <whiprush> I've always believed if you end up making each project hate each other that you end up failing everyone.
[06:36] <imbrandon> yea , true, alot of its how you handle the stired pot
[06:36] <Burgundavia> whiprush: no other spinoff has "threatened" the core constituency of Debian in the same way
[06:36] <whiprush> Burgundavia: I've never met a Debian person IRL claim that.
[06:36] <Burgundavia> whiprush: no, but there is "news" there
[06:36] <whiprush> IME most of them are happy accepting patches
[06:37] <imbrandon> i dont even think its the majority of debian i think its a __loud minority__ imho
[06:37] <whiprush> Burgundavia: and that's crap.
[06:37] <joejaxx> imbrandon: guess what
[06:37] <imbrandon> joejaxx: ??
[06:37] <joejaxx> imbrandon: i built fluxbox1.0rc2 yesterday
[06:37] <joejaxx> into a deb
[06:37] <whiprush> Burgundavia: it's bullshit, a minority of people are pissed, we shouldn't use that as a measure of what to do.
[06:37] <imbrandon> joejaxx: congrats ;)
[06:37] <joejaxx> well really like this morning
[06:37] <joejaxx> imbrandon: thanks
[06:37] <whiprush> a minority right now want to eject the DPL ffs.
[06:38] <imbrandon> lets keep it construtive guys ........
[06:38] <crimsun> joejaxx: we can ask for a sync from experimental if you really, really want it in 6.10
[06:38] <imbrandon> constructive*
[06:38] <LaserJock> imbrandon: but of course ;-)
[06:38] <joejaxx> imbrandon: i have a question though do you know what application takes care of image/svg+xml mime type?
[06:39] <joejaxx> imbrandon: because i think i might have removed that application in the process of cleaning Fluxbuntu
[06:39] <joejaxx> crimsun: oh ok
[06:39] <imbrandon> depends i know some, not a light weight one, like , umm inkscape does etc
[06:40] <joejaxx> crimsun: well i still have to take care of the "no man page for Fluxbuntu-generate_menus warning
[06:40] <joejaxx> imbrandon: well i mean bu default in ubuntu for scalable images
[06:40] <imbrandon> joejaxx: no i'm not sure
[06:40] <LaserJock> I think we need to keep to http://alcopop.org/log/2006/09/22/#grass and we'll be fine
[06:41] <joejaxx> imbrandon: oh alright
[06:42] <imbrandon> LaserJock: wow , i've not seen that, that makes me happy
[06:42] <joejaxx> crimsun: i was planning on upgrading to 1.0rc2 after edgy released anyway so i could upgrade everything together
[06:42] <imbrandon> and sad at the same time
[06:42] <joejaxx> crimsun: so i think i will wait
[06:42] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[06:42] <imbrandon> gnight bddebian
[06:42] <joejaxx> bddebian: goodnight :)
[06:42] <joejaxx> :\
[06:42] <imbrandon> joejaxx: he's fast ;)
[06:43] <joejaxx> yeah
[06:43] <imbrandon> LaserJock: who's blog is that
[06:43] <joejaxx> imbrandon: hopefully once i get my foundation firm for building package maybe i will try and join motu
[06:44] <imbrandon> joejaxx: sure ;) i'll be happy to help you do that when you want , as i have time etc etc etc , plus the other guys in here are great, hang out , learn from other peoples questions etc
[06:44] <imbrandon> it helps alot ;)
[06:44] <joejaxx> ok ;)
[06:44] <LaserJock> imbrandon: Alexis Sukrieh on planet.d.o
[06:45] <Toadstool> re
[06:45] <LaserJock> imbrandon: sorry that's wrong
[06:45] <imbrandon> btw everyone if you havent met joejaxx he is the driving force right now behind fluxbuntu ( fluxbuntu.org ) ;) take a bow joejaxx
[06:45] <LaserJock> imbrandon: it's  Jon Downland
[06:45] <LaserJock> hiya joejaxx
[06:46] <LaserJock> real football or soccer? ;-)
[06:46] <Toadstool> football :)
[06:46] <imbrandon> LaserJock: ahh
[06:46] <joejaxx> LaserJock: hello :)
[06:46] <LaserJock> poor Toadstool
[06:46] <Toadstool> it's weird for me to call that football
[06:46] <joejaxx> LaserJock: right now i am building mBuild1 Revision 2
[06:46] <Toadstool> my football is soccer :p
[06:46] <joejaxx> nBuild1*
[06:47] <LaserJock> I love football but I hear many people from other countries don't
[06:47] <LaserJock> :-)
[06:47] <minghua> football is not bad, it just uses a wrong name :-)
[06:47] <imbrandon> yea baseball, then american football ;)
[06:47] <LaserJock> joejaxx: cool, so do you intend to get all the fluxbuntu packages in Universe? or are they already
[06:47] <crimsun> joejaxx: bug 62120
[06:47] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 62120 in fluxbox "Please sync fluxbox 0.9.15.1+1.0rc2-1 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62120
[06:48] <crimsun> joejaxx: you may wish to subscribe to that bug
[06:48] <imbrandon> LaserJock: he plans to , just for edgy+1 , he got started a bit late for edgy
[06:48] <LaserJock> is there a fluxbuntu-desktop, etc.?
[06:48] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i have not added any of the fluxbuntu package
[06:48] <joejaxx> LaserJock: not until Launch1
[06:48] <joejaxx> packages*
[06:48] <joejaxx> crimsun: ahh thanks
[06:49] <LaserJock> ok
[06:49] <joejaxx> LaserJock: the iso is 315MB :)
[06:49] <LaserJock> I'll be looking forward to seeing fluxbuntu in Universe
[06:49] <LaserJock> :-)
[06:49] <joejaxx> LaserJock: :)
[06:49] <joejaxx> imbrandon: haha
[06:49] <joejaxx> :P
[06:50] <imbrandon> brb, time for a snack
[06:50] <imbrandon> and some dew ;)
[06:50] <Toadstool> now gotta grab some food, otherwise i'm going to starve</Toadstool's captivating life>
[06:50] <Toadstool> cya :p
[06:50] <joejaxx> Toadstool: :P
[06:51] <LaserJock> hmm, is there a shortcut to get to your inbox in mutt
[06:52] <LaserJock> I keep hitting c-<tab>-PgDn-<enter>
[06:57] <minghua> LaserJock: you can always remap a key
[06:58] <LaserJock> hmm, part of the problem is my inbox is in /var/spool/mail
[06:58] <LaserJock> so it's a little odd to type
[06:59] <minghua> macro index S "c/var/spool/mail\n" "Go to inbox"
[06:59] <minghua> in ~/.muttrc (UNTESTED!)
[06:59] <minghua> that maps the key S to the command
[07:02] <LaserJock> minghua: excellent, that worked
[07:02] <LaserJock> I sure hate that the stupid school server doesn't have nano
[07:02] <LaserJock> it does have pico so I guess I should just alias it
[07:03] <imbrandon> heh yea i was gonan say alias it
[07:03] <minghua> LaserJock: you can choose something other than S, I copied that from my "mark as spam" shortcut, because I know S is open
[07:03] <imbrandon> i used to alias pico to nano way back when i only had nano at first becouse for so many years i was used to typing pico and i hated "command not found"
[07:04] <minghua> It's sort of weird to hear people aliasing nano to pico though
[07:04] <minghua> it's usually the other way around
[07:04] <imbrandon> heh yea
[07:04] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm used to nano
[07:05] <imbrandon> it took me many months to get used to nano vs pico, hell once in a while i'll cacth my self in howtos writing pico still
[07:05] <imbrandon> lol
[07:05] <minghua> my nano skill is a little better than my emacs skill
[07:05] <LaserJock> I think my advisor almost imploded when emacs wasn't installed on the server :-)
[07:05] <imbrandon> hahaha
[07:06] <LaserJock> the sysadmin quickly rectified the situation
[07:06] <minghua> (which isn't saying much as my emacs skill is limited to C-x C-c :-)
[07:06] <joejaxx> i have never used emacs
[07:06] <LaserJock> you should of seen his face when I said "It's got vim on it"
[07:06] <joejaxx> LaserJock: haha
[07:06] <imbrandon> you know i can honestly say i have used emacs ONE time , i use vi(m) when needed and can get arround with it, and nano for day to day , but the MAIN reason i dont use emacs .......
[07:07] <imbrandon> i couldent figure out how to save/exit !?!!
[07:07] <LaserJock> haha
[07:07] <imbrandon> i had to open another tty and kill -9 the pid
[07:07] <imbrandon> never again have i run emacs
[07:07] <LaserJock> I thought the same thing about vim
[07:08] <LaserJock> I don't think my advisor could last 30 min without emacs
[07:08] <imbrandon> well i learned the very basicls of vi when a system crashed and the recovery console only had vi , no pico
[07:08] <imbrandon> so i HAD to
[07:08] <imbrandon> i've never HAD to learn emacs
[07:08] <imbrandon> heh
[07:08] <LaserJock> I did
[07:08] <imbrandon> basics*
[07:09] <LaserJock> I didn't know that vi(m) even existed until I'd been using Linux for a year at least
[07:09] <imbrandon> i always like the jokes about if you want an editor use vi(m) if you want an os use emacs
[07:09] <LaserJock> emacs is attractive that way
[07:10] <imbrandon> heh i like simple editor, i use it to edit txt files, if i want other tools i use the other tools
[07:10] <imbrandon> thats the way i look at it
[07:10] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:11] <imbrandon> serouisly though , to this day i have only started emacs one time, hell i dont even know if its installed, but i do know that i dont know how to exit once its started
[07:11] <imbrandon> heh
[07:12] <LaserJock> ctrl-x ctrl-c
[07:12] <imbrandon> i should probably learn the very very basics of it incase for some reason i would NEED to use it
[07:12] <joejaxx> imbrandon: same here
[07:12] <LaserJock> well, I'm off to bed
[07:12] <LaserJock> good night folks
[07:12] <imbrandon> but for my tool box day to day nano ( plus the occasional vim ) works great
[07:13] <imbrandon> gnight LaserJock
[07:13] <imbrandon> plus RMS wrote emacs dident he? *grumbles*
[07:14] <bluefoxicy> yeah rms is an asshole don't use things he wrote
[07:15] <minghua> hey, RMS wrote gcc
[07:15] <imbrandon> ;)
[07:43] <Toadstool> Fujitsu: bug 60349, why do you change python-dev to python in Build-Deps-Indep?
[07:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 60349 in galternatives "Please review merge of galternatives" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60349
[08:03] <keescook> if there's a package in debian unstable (and it's in testing), where can I find out why it's not in universe?  (I'm happy to solve the problems, too, I just don't know where to look and see why it's not already in universe)  "gopchop" is the package.
[08:04] <keescook> the wiki talks about stuff in neither (revu), and about stuff that needs work (merge), but not about regular syncs
[08:04] <BazziR> apt-cache search gopchop
[08:04] <BazziR> apt-cache policy gopchop
[08:05] <keescook> BazziR: it's not in universe.  :P
[08:05] <BazziR> ah, why
[08:05] <BazziR> didn't read that, sorry
[08:05] <imbrandon> brandon@horatio:~$ apt-cache madison gopchop gopchop |    1.1.7-5 | http://192.168.1.5 edgy/universe Packages gopchop |    1.1.7-5 | http://archive.ubuntu.com edgy/universe Packages
[08:05] <keescook> erk... actually, it IS... just only in edgy
[08:05] <keescook> that's weird; it's been in unstable for a while.
[08:06] <BazziR> so there is no problem huh? :)
[08:06] <imbrandon> just means it wasent in time for dapper, was it in unstable before january ?
[08:06] <keescook> problem is my brain, it seems.  ;)
[08:06] <keescook> ah, yeah, that'd be the problem.
[08:06] <keescook> 2006-06-05
[08:07] <imbrandon> ;) considering dapper was released on 2006-06-01 ;)
[08:07] <keescook> I'm actually the upstream author of gopchop.  another dude was packaging it for me, but I didn't realize it took that long to get mentored in
[08:07] <keescook> pardon the brain fart.  :)
[08:07] <imbrandon> ;)
[08:07] <imbrandon> no worries
[08:08] <imbrandon> keescook: all ways good to check http://packages.ubuntu.com/<package>
[08:08] <imbrandon> ;)
[08:08] <imbrandon> just fyi
[08:08] <keescook> imbrandon: I did, I just missed the dates.
[08:09] <keescook> ah, the confusion.  I should go to bed.  No coding after midnight
[08:28] <imbrandon> ..
[08:59] <joejaxx> imbrandon: yeah i broken it ubuntu uses something to display scalable icons
[08:59] <joejaxx> imbrandon: i need to find out what that is
[08:59] <joejaxx> well bbl
[09:15] <StevenK> w
[09:15] <StevenK> Oops
[09:47] <crimsun> 'morning gauvain
[09:47] <crimsun> & raphink
[09:48] <Gloubiboulga> hello Daniel
[09:51] <raphink> hi crimsun
[10:15] <marcin_ant> hi guys
[10:15] <crimsun> hi
[10:16] <marcin_ant> is there someone that could answer me few questions about java policy in ubuntu?
[10:17] <Burgundavia> Laser_away: you are not still up?
[10:20] <Fujitsu> Toadstool, that was a while ago, I'll check...
[10:21] <Burgundavia> any other MOTU need access to a fairly fast (2.4 GHZ athalon with 1 gb of ram) i386 machine on a fairly fat pipe?
[10:22] <Fujitsu> That'd be good, but I'm not a MOTU yet.
[10:23] <Burgundavia> Fujitsu: I am merely looking for people I trust
[10:23] <StevenK> Burgundavia: Thanks, but I have one. ;-)
[10:23] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia, noted.
[10:23] <Burgundavia> Fujitsu: are you suffering from down-under bandwidth?
[10:24] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia, 64kbps at the moment :(
[10:24] <Fujitsu> Of course, with your super-DD powers!
[10:24] <lastnode__> except maybe for a shell
[10:24] <lastnode__> then again, like Fujitsu, im no motu either :P
[10:24] <crimsun> bah, you and your broadband(s)
[10:24] <Burgundavia> canonical needs to by some amd64 and ppc buildds and dev machines and host them
[10:25] <Burgundavia> crimsun: you want access?
[10:25] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia, yeah, that would be useful. Like I would have caught my (well, more Debian's) dodgy python-scipy earlier today.
[10:25] <crimsun> Burgundavia: I'm good for x86 and amd64, thanks though
[10:27] <lastnode> gnomefreak, what happened to your hostmask?
[10:27] <gnomefreak> lastnode: its there
[10:28] <lastnode> oh right, sorry. /me always identifies before /joining
[11:03] <AnAnt> ping lionelp
[11:04] <AnAnt> ping Gloubiboulga
[11:06] <Gloubiboulga> AnAnt, pong (but I have to leave)
[11:06] <AnAnt> oh
[11:06] <AnAnt> can I request a REVU ?
[11:06] <AnAnt> a package needing second advocate
[11:06] <Gloubiboulga> sure, give me the url, I'll have a look later today
[11:07] <AnAnt> Gloubiboulga: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3204
[11:07] <AnAnt>  & thanks
[11:07] <Gloubiboulga> ok, added on my TODO ;)
[11:08] <AnAnt> k
[11:46] <lastnode> could someone help me create a .deb for a .py script of mine?
[11:46] <lastnode> i was just wondering, in marking deps, should i mark the name of the internal python module, or the dpkg name for the module
[11:46] <|thunder> wish I could
[11:46] <lastnode> probably the latter, right?
[11:48] <azeem> lastnode: there is a policy on how to name python binary packages.  The source package naming is not restricted, so you can just call it the same as upstream for convenience
[11:50] <lastnode> azeem, id im using py-qt, my dep would be python.24-qt3
[11:50] <lastnode> *if
[11:51] <Fujitsu> No.
[11:51] <Fujitsu> python-qt3, or python-qt, I've forgotten which.
[11:51] <Fujitsu> Search for the Debian Python Policy.
[11:52] <Fujitsu> That describes how to package Python things.
[11:52] <lastnode> thanks Fujitsu
[11:53] <Fujitsu> No problem.
[11:54] <|thunder> I'd like to start learing hot to dev soe stuff for ubuntu. id like to start with an app that gets input from terminal comands and displays them in a GUI. what is a good place to start ?
[11:54] <|thunder> sry, new keyboard
[11:54] <|thunder> takes some getting used to
[12:57] <|thunder> why is there no man page for 'jobs' ?
[12:57] <|thunder> --help list bunch of flags with no explaination
[12:58] <|thunder> hrm,..  seems jobs is not a bin. a bash commans prehaps. nm
[01:06] <Fujitsu> Last night I attempted to update soundconverter to 0.9.1. However, it recently moved to use autotools, rendering the old, manual, partially debhelper debian/rules entirely useless. I emailed the soundconverter maintainer last night, asking if he was planning to update the package to 0.9.1 in the near future. He responded saying he would immediately orphan that package, as he loathes autotools.
[01:06] <geser> use help for bash builtins: help jobs
[01:06] <|thunder> ahh, thanks
[01:07] <Nafallo> Fujitsu: woha. how nice :-P.
[01:07] <Fujitsu> Nafallo, yeah.
[01:09] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: heh.  thought about the maintainer in both debian and ubuntu?
[01:09] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee, thought about the maintainer?
[01:10] <Hobbsee> er, sorry.  there should be a "being" in there
[01:10] <Fujitsu> Yes, I had thought about that.
[01:10] <Fujitsu> There's no particular requirements for maintaining a Debian package, is there?
[01:11] <tseng> Fujitsu: im not sure what you mean
[01:11] <tseng> the package itself obviously has to meet strict requirements
[01:11] <tseng> you need to file an ITP (intent to package) bug
[01:12] <Fujitsu> No, it'd be an ITA in this case...
[01:12] <tseng> and find a willing sponsor to help you continue to get your work into the archive
[01:12] <Fujitsu> But I mean, I don't have to be a DD or anything.
[01:12] <tseng> no, but you need one
[01:12] <Fujitsu> Noted.
[01:12] <Nafallo> Fujitsu: we have DD's in this channel, so shouldn't be to hard :-)
[01:13] <Fujitsu> Nafallo, I know :)
[01:19] <Fujitsu> In fact, the old maintainer has already talked to another DD about it, who's happy to sponsor my upload. I just got an email then :)
[01:19] <tseng> oh, so thats why darcs is such a good RCS
[01:19] <tseng> it doesnt perserve permissions
[01:19] <tseng> like.. +x
[03:18] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:18] <pygi> morning bddebian
[03:19] <bddebian> Heya pygi
[03:21] <Fujitsu> Hi bddebian.
[03:21] <bddebian> Hello Master Fujitsu
[03:21] <Fujitsu> Oy.
[03:22] <StevenK> Hah
[03:22] <StevenK> Master indeed.
[03:22] <Fujitsu> Or not.
[03:22] <Fujitsu> `Hello Lowly little nothing Fujitsu' would be more appropriate :P
[03:22] <StevenK> Bwahaha
[03:23] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Hello peasant!
[03:23] <Fujitsu> Thankyou!
[03:23] <bddebian> Fujitsu: Bah
[03:24] <Fujitsu> I'm not even a MOTU yet, so I'm just a lowly little nothing :P
[03:24] <bddebian> Phooey
[03:24] <Hobbsee> hello deity bddebian
[03:24] <bddebian> You seem to be getting more accomplished than a great deal of MOTU's I "know"
[03:25] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: MOTU == does no work :P
[03:25] <Hobbsee> or close to none
[03:25] <Hobbsee> hah.  you missed
[03:25] <bddebian> heh
[03:26] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee, I believe kaol will be uploading my soundconverter 0.9.1-1 to Debian shortly :P
[03:26] <Fujitsu> Oh no, not again.
[03:26] <tseng> Hobbsee: thats core-dev
[03:26] <Nafallo> hehe
[03:28] <Hobbsee> tseng: you sure?
[03:28] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: nice :)
[03:28] <tseng> yes
[03:28] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee, hopefully :)
[03:28] <Mithrandir> mm, pointy sticks
[03:28] <Fujitsu> Nasty savage Hobbsee, resorting to using pointy sticks.
[03:29] <Nafallo> haha
[03:29] <Nafallo> save the trees! kill a beaver!
[03:29] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: you cant.  and just watch it electrocute you.
[03:29] <Fujitsu> Long pointy cattle-prod, then.
[03:29] <pygi> Nafallo: you would ruin the ecosphere that way!!!
[03:29] <Hobbsee> Sysinfo for 'LongPointyStickOfDoom': Linux 2.6.17-7-generic running KDE 3.5.4, CPU: MobileIntel(R)Celeron(R)CPU2.40GHz at 2394 MHz (4793 bogomips), , RAM: 773/994MB, 102 proc's, 3.1h up
[03:29] <Hobbsee> nah...
[03:29] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: but that's... cheating.
[03:30] <Hobbsee> most cattle prods dont have celeron processors....
[03:30] <Fujitsu> PFft.
[03:30] <Nafallo> no, they have amd64 x2 :-)
[03:30] <Hobbsee> :P
[03:31] <Fujitsu> *pointy
[03:31] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: you cant, it's mine.
[03:31] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: they're *all* mine
[03:31] <Fujitsu> No, I have a X2!
[03:31] <Hobbsee> any and all long pointy sticks of doom, of any variety, are mine.
[03:31] <Nafallo> s/stick/cattleprod/ then ;-)
[03:32] <zul_> arrgh...its Hobbsee http://www.macmillan.org.uk/whybother/help/images/pointy.gif
[03:32] <Fujitsu> :O
[03:32] <Fujitsu> So Hobbsee is this little orange bespectacled blob?
[03:32] <zul_> with a pointy stick
[03:32] <Fujitsu> Well, that's implied.
[03:32] <Nafallo> lol
[03:32] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:32] <Hobbsee> StevenK: think that's a good likeness of me?  ^
[03:33] <Nafallo> motus smokes the crackpipe :-P
[03:33] <StevenK> I don't think so.
[03:33] <StevenK> Besides, it doesn't have red eyes.
[03:33] <Hobbsee> true that :P
[03:34] <zul_> red eyes like the devil
[03:34] <Fujitsu> :O
[03:35] <zul_> Mithrandir: i choose to ignore the chewing of my leg :)
[03:35] <Mithrandir> zul_: the amd64's kernel arch is not amd64, it's x86_64 and there are includes which include <asm-i386/...> in there.
[03:35] <Fujitsu> Ah!
[03:35] <Mithrandir> zul_: I'm fixing it up now, but my machine is slow, so each kernel build takes about 15 minutes.
[03:35] <zul_> Mithrandir: doh...will be fixed soon i hope, still trying to get 2.6.17 to behave properly
[03:35] <Mithrandir> I need more ram.
[03:35] <Mithrandir> zul_: sure, but all this is packaging faff, so kernel version doesn't really matter.
[03:36] <zul_> Mithrandir: i know but 2.6.17 has the kernel headers patch which should make it easier
[03:37] <Mithrandir> zul_: hmm?  That's just for making glibc's headers from the actual kernel, isn't it?
[03:37] <Hobbsee> zul_: indeed.
[03:37] <zul_> i think so..
[03:38] <Nafallo> slow... 15 minutes kernels... *mumbel, grumbel*
[03:38] <zul_> i need more ram as wel
[03:39] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: with ccache.
[03:39] <Nafallo> Mithrandir: I built i386 kernels overnight on mine, and it wasn't finished when I got up :-P
[03:39] <Nafallo> with ccache...
[03:40] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: even after the -generic merge so it's just one huge build?
[03:40] <Nafallo> yea, the 9 ABI one.
[03:40] <Nafallo> but I have hardware coming so... ;-)
[03:40] <Mithrandir> uh, what kind of machine is that?  This is just xen, but the compilation speed shouldn't really be different.
[03:41] <Mithrandir> cache hit                         180007
[03:41] <Mithrandir> cache miss                         36638
[03:41] <Nafallo> ogre.magicalforest.se is it's current state :-)
[03:41] <bddebian> Grr stupid new build-deps for a simple release
[03:42] <Fujitsu> Which package, bddebian?
[03:42] <bddebian> Fujitsu: saods9
[03:43] <zul> .win 18
[03:44] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: well, an x2 4400+ ought to be slightly faster than a 1.4GHz 32 bit machine.  Especially since I have two and a half times your RAM.
[03:44] <zul> and ccache
[03:45] <Nafallo> Mithrandir: yea, but you're machine isn't that slow on building then. that was more to my point :-).
[03:45] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: well, yours is just slower. :-P
[03:46] <Nafallo> :-)
[03:46] <Mithrandir> dpkg-deb: Bygger pakken xen-restricted-modules-2.6.16-11.2-generic i ../xen-restricted-modules-2.6.16-11.2-generic_2.6.16-1_amd64.deb.
[03:46] <Mithrandir> zul: yay me. :-)
[03:46] <Mithrandir> now lets see if it still works
[03:46] <Nafallo> hehe
[03:49] <Fujitsu> Goodnight, everybody!
[03:50] <Nafallo> 15:49 and goodnight ;-)
[03:50] <Nafallo> Fujitsu: gnight :-)
[03:50] <Fujitsu> 23:50 here :P
[03:50] <Fujitsu> 'night.
[03:50] <Nafallo> baah. the world should just use UTC everywhere :-)
[03:51] <Fujitsu> Yeah.
[03:51] <Nafallo> much less problems :-)
[04:01] <Mithrandir> yay, xend running and graphical stuff up and running.
[04:01] <Mithrandir> zul: ^^ :-)
[04:02] <AnAnt> ping bddebian
[04:03] <bddebian> AnAnt: pong.  Sorry,  I haven't had a chance to check out tss yet :-(
[04:04] <AnAnt> bddebian: nevermind, don't ! it seems that there MAY be license issues regarding the artwork in it
[04:04] <AnAnt> bddebian: so I still have to resolve it (prolly in Edgy+1)
[04:04] <AnAnt> bddebian: I wanted to ask about freedict, it has a ready to upload status although only you approved it
[04:04] <bddebian> Ah, OK
[04:04] <AnAnt> bddebian: and it's not on LP queue
[04:04] <AnAnt> I think
[04:04] <bddebian> AnAnt: Oh shoot, right. Because it's already in the repo it doesn't need 2
[04:05] <AnAnt> bddebian: you mean this https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/freedict ?
[04:05] <AnAnt> because that's the URL I though I would find it
[04:07] <bddebian> AnAnt: Yes.  Because freedict is already there, your package is just an "upgrade" not new to Ubuntu so technically I could just upload it
[04:07] <AnAnt> bddebian: well, would u upload it ?
[04:07] <bddebian> If you pay me ;-P
[04:08] <AnAnt> you're on dialup ?
[04:08] <bddebian> No cable modem
[04:08] <AnAnt> hmmm, is there any other way then ?
[04:08] <bddebian> I'm kidding man give me a minute
[04:09] <AnAnt> k
[04:20] <AnAnt> bddebian: after upload I should see it in https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/freedict , right ?
[04:21] <bddebian> Yep, it's uploading now
[04:21] <AnAnt> thand
[04:21] <AnAnt> thanks
[04:31] <bddebian> AnAnt: It's up
[04:31] <AnAnt> it takes time to appear on LP ?
[04:31] <AnAnt> thanks
[04:32] <bddebian> Fuck it got rejected because of the MD5sums
[04:32] <AnAnt> what md5sums ?
[04:32] <AnAnt> oh, the md5sums in the upload file
[04:33] <AnAnt> why is it that the REVUer has to upload it himself ?
[04:33] <AnAnt> shouldn't the REVU site do that ?
[04:35] <bddebian> No, it's not that
[04:38] <bddebian> AnAnt: Did you do anything with orig.tar.gz?
[04:39] <AnAnt> bddebian: nope
[04:39] <AnAnt> besides, isn't the md5sums generated when I do debuild ?
[04:40] <AnAnt> bddebian: and I wouldn't be able to upload to REVU if the md5sums were incorrect, right ?
[04:41] <geser> AnAnt: did you take the orig.tar.gz from LP or did you generate a new one?
[04:41] <ryanakca> bddebian: can you review an crystal-diamond please? (it's just as an extra iconset for universe...) http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3238
[04:42] <AnAnt> geser: I don't remember, that was months ago
[04:43] <AnAnt> bddebian: how about I get it now from LP, and repackage it ?
[04:47] <AnAnt> ping bddebian
[04:49] <AnAnt> bddebian: I downloaded the orig tarball from the repos & made a diff, the tarballs aren't the same
[04:50] <AnAnt> bddebian: yet after unpacking, the diff of the resulting directories is the same
[04:50] <bddebian> AnAnt: Did you pull the orig.tar.gz from Debian?
[04:50] <AnAnt> bddebian: I don't remember where I pulled the orig.tar.gz several months ago
[04:52] <AnAnt> bddebian: ok, I just repackaged
[04:54] <AnAnt> bddebian: uploading...
[04:55] <bddebian> AnAnt: I have to do a couple things for the Mrs. then I'll try again
[04:56] <AnAnt> k
[04:56] <AnAnt> thanks
[05:01] <bddebian> ryanakca: Yeah, I'll take a look
[05:02] <ryanakca> bddebian: wait a second... I think we've found... some copyright issues...
[05:02] <bddebian> Oh
[05:02] <ryanakca> bddebian: look at #kubuntu-devel
[05:02] <AnAnt> bddebian: uploaded !
[06:33] <xerxas> does anybody knows giskard ?
[06:54] <xerxas> does anyone knows giskard ?
[06:55] <bddebian> xerxas: I don't, sorry
[06:55] <xerxas> ok
[07:20] <phanatic> good evening
[07:35] <bddebian> Heya phanatic
[07:36] <phanatic> heya bddebian
[08:53] <slytherin> Hi all. I want to report some unnecessary dependencies in gnucash (edgy), but launchpad says I can't report a bug got gnucash.
[08:53] <Subhuman> slytherin,  report a bug got gnucash?
[08:54] <slytherin> Subhuman: I didn't get you.
[08:54] <Subhuman> prob cuz gnucash isnt a lauchpad project, look for the gnucash website and post the bug there...
[08:54] <slytherin> Subhuman: Problem is that the bug is in dependencies of gnucash package in edgy. So reporting it to gnucash bugzilla won't be useful.
[08:55] <Nafallo> Subhuman: I rather think you're not trying to report it against the _Ubuntu_ gnucash :-)
[08:55] <Subhuman> slytherin, you need to find the maintainer of the gnucash package.
[08:55] <Nafallo> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gnucash/+filebug
[08:55] <Subhuman> i get you now.
[08:56] <slytherin> Nafallo: Ahh. Got it now. I guess I was trying to report against product gnucash.
[08:56] <Nafallo> yea, and that's just plain wrong. so lucky you it didn't work ;-)
[09:04] <slytherin> bug 62203
[09:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 62203 in gnucash "Unnecessary (-dev) dependencies in gnucash in edgy" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62203
[09:21] <minghua> slytherin: can't blame you.  launchpad doesn't has the most intuitive interface IMO
[09:22] <slytherin> minghua: I was looking in wrong place. gnucash is a source package in ubuntu as well as registered product.
[09:23] <minghua> I see
[09:40] <ajmitch> morning all
[09:42] <imbrandon> heya ajmitch
[09:44] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[09:47] <ajmitch> bddebian: how'd your weekend of reviewing go?
[09:48] <bddebian> I had a weekend of reviewing?
[09:48] <ajmitch> yes
[10:36] <ajmitch> hi LaserJock
[10:37] <LaserJock> hi ajmitch
[10:37] <ajmitch> oh dear, lots of ioctl & poll usage
[10:37] <LaserJock> a rogue applet?
[10:38] <ajmitch> maybe
[10:38] <LaserJock> I know I had one eating all my ram
[10:38] <ajmitch> that would be a challenge for me :)
[10:38] <LaserJock> yeah, I *only* had 756MB
[10:38] <ajmitch> hehe
[10:49] <LaserJock> hmm, perhaps we could come up with a better response then "Go look at LP" to -devel questions
[10:49] <minghua> ajmitch: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-09.html#polling
[10:49] <minghua> and the links therein
[10:49] <zul> LaserJock: go look at LP please?
[10:50] <LaserJock> well, if the person doesn't know what is on or off topic for -devel I sort of wonder if LP is any better
[10:50] <zul> well if they are coming from windows they probably never filed a bug in their life
[10:50] <LaserJock> I find it fairly difficult to find bugs on LP
[10:51] <LaserJock> I just don't see why LP has to be the be all, end all of communication
[10:53] <LaserJock> many people want to know that a bug is indeed a bug before they file it
[10:53] <zul> i agree launchpad can be a pain but bugs can be better tracked there, if mailing lists were the only thing that were used then no work would be getting done
[10:53] <minghua> I still don't know how to delete a remote bug watch though (we have duplicate ones)
[10:54] <zul> that reminds me i have to check bugme
[10:55] <Nafallo> zul: bugyou?
[10:55] <zul> bugme.osdl.org
[10:55] <Nafallo> ah :-)
[11:01] <ajmitch> minghua: yea, but this is non-stop, causing max cpu usage on 1 core :)
[11:01] <minghua> ajmitch: oh.  that should be something completely different, then
[11:02] <minghua> lucky that you have two cores :-)
[11:02] <ajmitch>  4173 ajmitch   25   0  303m 133m  11m R  100  3.4  86:25.45 gnome-panel --sm-client-id default1
[11:03] <ajmitch> it could probably do with being restarted anyway
[11:03] <ajmitch> process has been running since aug 16
[11:08] <LaserJock> I would just find -devel very discouraging as a person wanting to get involved
[11:09] <ajmitch> list or channel?
[11:09] <LaserJock> list
[11:09] <ajmitch> right
[11:10] <LaserJock> channel too, but probably less so
[11:10] <ajmitch> it is a bit daunting, and people frequently get told they're OT
[11:10] <LaserJock> going into it I would think -devel ML would be about talking about the dev release
[11:10] <LaserJock> when in practice it is for developers to talk to each other, it seems
[11:10] <LaserJock> I have no idea what is OT for -devel
[11:11] <ajmitch> it is practically about the dev release
[11:11] <LaserJock> but not about problems with the dev release
[11:11] <LaserJock> or requests concerning the dev release
[11:11] <ajmitch> no, bug reports are forbidden :)
[11:11] <ajmitch> if there's a spec that should be discussed, it's appropriate
[11:11] <LaserJock> but you have to know that it's a bug report in the first place
[11:12] <ajmitch> but there are a *lot* of poor-quality specs
[11:12] <ajmitch> where they
[11:12] <ajmitch> where they just have a paragraph of a feature request
[11:12] <ajmitch> not a specification
[11:13] <ajmitch> it'll make it hard to filter through the good ones for mountain view
[11:13] <LaserJock> well, that's some of what I'm talking about
[11:13] <LaserJock> people have questions and we just shove them to LP or specs without much guidance
[11:14] <LaserJock> IMO at least
[11:16] <ajmitch> I agree
[11:16] <ajmitch> 'file a bug', 'write a spec'
[11:16] <LaserJock> mhm
[11:17] <Fujitsu> Gah. Stupid stupid close UniverseFreeze.
[11:17] <ajmitch> & then bug triagers have to go through & request relevant info later
[11:17] <tseng> Fujitsu: there you are
[11:17] <ajmitch> like version info, distro
[11:17] <Fujitsu> Hi tseng.
[11:17] <tseng> hi
[11:17] <tseng> gnome-web-photo
[11:18] <tseng> would you mind getting that into debian?
[11:18] <Fujitsu> The package?
[11:18] <tseng> yes
[11:18] <Fujitsu> Erm, OK, if you say so.
[11:18] <tseng> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/beagle/+bug/49512
[11:18] <Fujitsu> Noted.
[11:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 49512 in beagle "Beagle should suggest or recommend gnome-web-photo" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
[11:18] <tseng> thats you, right?
[11:19] <Fujitsu> I replied to it, yes, I think... I can't quite remember.
[11:19] <tseng> oh, dholbach packaged it
[11:19] <tseng> you did
[11:19] <tseng> but I will blame dholbach instead
[11:19] <Fujitsu> Hah. Why?
[11:19] <Fujitsu> Anyway, I need some advice on what to do with soundconverter.
[11:19] <tseng> because i want to add things to beagle in debian, not ubuntu
[11:20] <tseng> and debian doesnt have the package
[11:20] <tseng> bug stays open
[11:20] <imbrandon> ajmitch: 4165761354654321321357643213576
[11:21] <ajmitch> imbrandon: I think they're mostly on the forums
[11:21] <ajmitch> along with scripts & various hacks to install them & new flash 2.6.18 kernels & other bling
[11:21] <imbrandon> probably , i havent been to the forums in months
[11:21] <imbrandon> just for that reason
[11:21] <ajmitch> it's sad
[11:22] <Fujitsu> I am now the Debian maintainer, however my initial upload is going to be delayed until libavc1394-0 enters testing, and gstreamer-0.10-plugins-good is rebuilt, as it's currently uninstallable in Sid. I'm not quite sure of the details. This delay is likely to be of about a week, which puts it past UniverseFreeze.
[11:22] <LaserJock> I try to go on the forums a fair amount
[11:22] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: that's not a great hurdle
[11:22] <tseng> LaserJock: I'm sorry
[11:23] <imbrandon> LaserJock: i feel for you
[11:23] <LaserJock> from a dev perspective there is some serious misinformation out there
[11:23] <Fujitsu> ajmitch, what should I do? Wait until UniverseFreeze is up, and get an exception? Or upload it as -0ubuntu1? Or what?
[11:23] <LaserJock> it won't get better unless people give out correct info
[11:23] <imbrandon> LaserJock: and people dont listen when you try to explain the "right way" they are like this "hax0r script works" its discouraging
[11:23] <minghua> from my experience in Chinese debian forums, there is always misinformation
[11:23] <LaserJock> many times the appreciate it
[11:23] <minghua> (or is the plural for forum fora?)
[11:24] <Fujitsu> Hahh.
[11:24] <LaserJock> some obviously don't, but it really isn't that bad
[11:24] <LaserJock> it's just time consuming
[11:24] <LaserJock> like email, for me
[11:24] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: upload it, sync it afterwards
[11:24] <minghua> LaserJock: usually the atmosphere of a forum depends on the attitude of the most vocal ones
[11:25] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I sometimes try & correct people, which is usually telling them to file bugs with correct info
[11:25] <Fujitsu> ajmitch, OK. I would have uploaded it earlier, but it changed the build system to CDBS, and that's obviously frowned upon unless Debian does it.
[11:25] <minghua> and there are people that "just don't get it" and keep giving out misinformations
[11:25] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: explain the reasons in your sponsorship request & it should be fine
[11:25] <Fujitsu> OK, thanks :)
[11:25] <imbrandon> ahh the _loud minority_
[11:25] <imbrandon> stikes again
[11:25] <ajmitch> as long as you have the same package with different version
[11:26] <ajmitch> imbrandon: always
[11:27] <Fujitsu> I can't stand the forum.
[11:27] <imbrandon> ajmitch: exactly, i tried for a long time, might try again someday but for now i dont wanna mess with the forums
[11:28] <imbrandon> take too much time for too little return ( for me )
[11:28] <minghua> for example, just look at automatix
[11:29] <imbrandon> ugh
[11:29] <imbrandon> lol
[11:32] <LaserJock> minghua: it's not?
[11:33] <minghua> LaserJock: apparently not.  from what I see in http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46
[11:33] <LaserJock> I guess EasyUbuntu is there but not Automatix
[11:33] <zul> heh forums rock!
[11:33] <LaserJock> lots of people still us it, including Ubuntu reviewers :/
[11:33] <minghua> yes Easy Ubuntu is there
[11:33] <minghua> I heard easy ubuntu is the "good" automatic script?
[11:34] <LaserJock> I think their probably equivalent these days
[11:34] <LaserJock> s/their/they are/
 all of these requests in the forum is not the proper place</rant>
[11:36] <LaserJock> the thing is the forums have a very large audience and it is what many of the users see as Ubuntu
[11:36] <zul> scarey isnt it
[11:37] <minghua> well there are some users just weird
[11:37] <minghua> I saw a post on the Chinese forum a few days ago asking for an English forum about Debian, and explicitly says he hates mailing list
[11:38] <imbrandon> probably just as most irc'rs hate forums
[11:38] <tseng> except irc'ers have just cause
[11:38] <imbrandon> yea
[11:38] <Fujitsu> tseng, yeah.
[11:38] <LaserJock> phhh
[11:38] <LaserJock> I don't think that's really the case
[11:38] <tseng> I do
[11:38] <LaserJock> it's different media
[11:38] <LaserJock> I don't think either is "better"
[11:38] <Fujitsu> Forums are inefficient.
[11:39] <tseng> show me any medium where misinformation spreads faster than a forum
[11:39] <LaserJock> that same weekness is also it's power
[11:39] <bddebian> Left wing media?
[11:39] <Fujitsu> Let's ban IRC from Ubuntu development, and see what happens. Let's see how much misinformation gets around.
[11:39] <imbrandon> the funny thing is it can be most compared to a ML and ML dont seem the have that problem
[11:39] <Fujitsu> imbrandon, that's true.
[11:39] <tseng> imbrandon: yep.
[11:39] <LaserJock> it's totally different then IRC or ML
[11:40] <tseng> its different because its worse
[11:40] <tseng> clearly so
[11:40] <tseng> sorry
[11:40] <LaserJock> whatever
[11:40] <LaserJock> I think that's total crap, but that's ok ;-)
[11:40] <LaserJock> I understand what you're saying
[11:40] <imbrandon> well its totaly diffrent than irc i give you that but a ML has alot in common with forums , they started out as the same thing and evolved
[11:41] <LaserJock> I'd take forums (properly run) over a ML anyday
[11:41] <LaserJock> I prefer IRC over them both though for most things
[11:41] <imbrandon> but it is nice how /most/ misinformation is stifled on a ML and OT is also but not so on forums
[11:42] <LaserJock> that's a function of moderation and having knowledgable people
[11:42] <LaserJock> not the media itself, IMO
[11:42] <imbrandon> LaserJock: 100% correct but we dont have that
[11:42] <imbrandon> atleaste not to the scale it is required for the forums
[11:43] <LaserJock> but that's not the media's fault
[11:43] <Fujitsu> Just nitpicking here, but the singular form of media is medium :P
[11:43] <imbrandon> LaserJock: partly so it is, becouse it is time consuming , and the people that are able to do so cant
[11:43] <imbrandon> put the time into it
[11:43] <LaserJock> devs, in general, don't like forums so you don't find them there
[11:43] <ivoks> forums are cr..p
[11:44] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: I know :-)
[11:44] <imbrandon> LaserJock: and that IS the forums fault, it dosent make it easy for the devs or other knolageable people to direct the flow of information
[11:44] <imbrandon> thus giving the misinformation the same wieght as the good stuff
[11:45] <imbrandon> and thats whats bad
[11:45] <ivoks> ml are better than forums cause you can choose you app for communication
[11:45] <LaserJock> hehe
[11:45] <LaserJock> I don't think a ML is any better that way
[11:45] <imbrandon> actualy what i honestly like and what i think we need to workon in the semi long term is ML and forum intergration, i have seen it done and it works out great
[11:46] <LaserJock> it was done on the forums for a while -users and -devel I think
[11:46] <LaserJock> but it seemed totally confusing to me
[11:46] <LaserJock> anyway, I don't want to pick a fight or anything
[11:46] <ivoks> it's late for excuses
[11:46] <LaserJock> and I am very disappointed in ubuntu forums at times
[11:46] <ivoks> :)
[11:47] <imbrandon> nah , we all know each other and we all have our opinions ;) nothing personal heh
[11:47] <Fujitsu> imbrandon, -users at least was integrated for a while, and it didn't work fantastically.
[11:47] <LaserJock> but I hate MLs so I guess maybe that's my problem
[11:47] <LaserJock> :-)
[11:47] <LaserJock> mhm
[11:48] <ivoks> LaserJock: hm, did you try sorting mailing lists in you inbox?
[11:48] <LaserJock> sure
[11:48] <ivoks> i mean, forum needs to many clicking...
[11:48] <LaserJock> I just don't like email in general
[11:48] <ivoks> ah... that's the problem
[11:48] <ivoks> you don't like email
[11:48] <ivoks> :)
[11:48] <LaserJock> it's very inefficient to me
[11:48] <ajmitch> ivoks: that's why we have procmail :)
[11:48] <ivoks> ajmitch: right
[11:48] <imbrandon> procmail ++
[11:48] <tseng> mm procmail
[11:48] <LaserJock> I have procmail and mutt going right now
[11:49] <ajmitch> though it's not the most intuitive of configurations
[11:49] <LaserJock> but that doesn't help me like ML any better ;-)
[11:49] <ivoks> wc -l .procmailrc
[11:49] <ivoks> 116 .procmailrc
[11:49] <ajmitch> tiny
[11:49] <imbrandon> brandon@enterprise:~$ wc -l .procmailrc
[11:49] <imbrandon> 85 .procmailrc
[11:49] <imbrandon> very tiny
[11:49] <LaserJock> that's quite a bit bigger then mine
[11:50] <tseng> oh i have mine split into files
[11:50] <ivoks> :)
[11:50] <tseng> and source them
[11:50] <ivoks> imap+procmail = jackpot
[11:50] <LaserJock> that's what I do to, I don't know why though
[11:50] <zul> heh i have a mental filter
[11:50] <LaserJock> haha
[11:51] <LaserJock> I'm not sure why people would like email over forums, is it a GUI thing?
[11:51] <LaserJock> or just being used to it?
[11:51] <ivoks> it flexibility
[11:51] <Fujitsu> Can somebody please try connecting to ubuntu-ca.org port 22? I can't connect.
[11:51] <imbrandon> pop->gamil->fetchmail->procmail->imap  == love
[11:51] <Fujitsu> imbrandon, I leave out the gmail bit.
[11:51] <tseng> there is more difference in forum vs ml than just transport level
[11:51] <ivoks> Fujitsu: doesn't work
[11:52] <Fujitsu> ivoks, OK.
[11:52] <Fujitsu> And Burgandavia is away for the week :(
[11:52] <LaserJock> tseng: sure, but I find forums easier to get at larger amounts of data
[11:52] <LaserJock> and easier to get through the info
[11:52] <minghua> LaserJock: you use thread view in mutt, don't you?
[11:52] <LaserJock> although you tend to have less noise
[11:52] <LaserJock> minghua: yeah
[11:52] <ivoks> LaserJock: then... you miss icons? :)
[11:52] <LaserJock> no
[11:53] <minghua> in my opinion thread-view single-handedly beats forum
[11:53] <LaserJock> I do like that I can use any browser anywhere to get the forums
[11:53] <ivoks> i don't know... i never tought in the way "mail vs. forum"
[11:53] <minghua> I haven't seen a proper thread view in forum yet
[11:53] <ivoks> LaserJock: well... i can do that with mail too :)
[11:53] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, I can do that with mail too
[11:53] <Fujitsu> Damnit.
[11:53] <ivoks> :)
[11:53] <Fujitsu> Lag. Annoying.
[11:54] <Fujitsu> Lack of fast build machine, annoying :(
[11:54] <ivoks> heh, i can even telnet to my server and read mail
[11:54] <Fujitsu> And it goes down right before universe freeze, of course.
[11:54] <LaserJock> sure, I know you *can* I just like browsers better then mail clients maybe
[11:54] <LaserJock> anyway, I hardly post on the forums anymore anyway so it's kind of a stupid conversation
[11:54] <ivoks> LaserJock: ok; i can read my mail with telnet, mail clients and browsers :)
[11:55] <LaserJock> :-)
[11:55] <LaserJock> but I think I've probably sent fewer emails to ML then posts to forums :/
[11:55] <LaserJock> my emails alway get ignored
[11:55] <LaserJock> I get no feedback
[11:56] <minghua> seems LaserJock is the single minority here, and as he doesn't use forum these days anyway... :-)
[11:56] <Fujitsu> I really must learn to speak IMAP at some point, as POP3 and SMTP isn't enough these days.
[11:56] <Fujitsu> minghua, haha.
[11:56] <LaserJock> well, but I don't ignore them outright
[11:56] <ivoks> Fujitsu: then you would be able to say "I speek english, german, french and imap"
[11:56] <LaserJock> having 200,000 users can be a powerful thing
[11:57] <LaserJock> when I gave a MOTU School Session
[11:57] <LaserJock> I posted a forum thread announcing it
[11:57] <LaserJock> and about half the people that showed up were from the forums
[11:58] <imbrandon> forums can be good, but ours are wildly out of control
[11:58] <Fujitsu> *that
[11:58] <minghua> LaserJock: however I still doubt how much did the forum users benefit from it
[11:58] <LaserJock> true
[11:58] <LaserJock> I don't expect an MOTUs out of that group exactly
[11:59] <minghua> my general expression is:  you mention something on forum, there is going to be a long discussion, much hot air, but in the end no help come and nothing get done
[11:59] <LaserJock> but as far a communicating to users it is a powerful thing
[11:59] <minghua> you mention something on mailing list, you get mails from prospective collaborators, and patches
[11:59] <LaserJock> minghua: much like {ubuntu,debian}-devel
[11:59] <LaserJock> ;-)
[11:59] <minghua> LaserJock: can't deny the communicating to users part
[12:00] <minghua> well, I figure ubuntu-devel is a bit better than d-d
[12:00] <LaserJock> that's the part I'm interested in
[12:00] <LaserJock> forums are horrible for dev work
[12:00] <minghua> LaserJock: and if you thin debian-devel is too much hot air, you should read debian-vote :-)
[12:00] <LaserJock> but in ignoring them they have created their own dev people
[12:00] <Fujitsu> Anybody got any ideas why an strace of dpkg-source -x whatever.dsc would be showing it hanging, looping infinitely over these two calls:
[12:00] <Fujitsu> read(3, "gpg: ", 4096)                  = 5
[12:00] <Fujitsu> read(3, "waiting for lock (held by 15913 "..., 4096) = 53
[12:01] <LaserJock> who create Automatix, etc.
[12:01] <imbrandon> what REALLLY REALLLY makes me mad is when a bug is filed and points to a forum post instead of giving the summerized information needed
[12:01] <Fujitsu> imbrandon, yeah, that's annoying.
[12:01] <ivoks> imbrandon: "wontfix" :)
[12:01] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, the forums are really an entirely different community. Very few people go between them.
[12:02] <Fujitsu> Which means we get Automatix and co.
[12:02] <LaserJock> exactly
[12:02] <LaserJock> which I see as a problem
[12:02] <LaserJock> but something which I can do very little about
[12:02] <minghua> Fujitsu: dpkg-source is supposed to check the signatures of the .dsc, but it should fail gracefully if it can't authenticate it
[12:02] <Fujitsu> minghua, it's just hanging waiting for process 15913 to release the lock on something... But that process hasn't existed this boot.
[12:03] <LaserJock> anyway, I try to look in the devel subforum now and then and try to post something if I see something totally wrong
[12:03] <LaserJock> but that's about all I can do
[12:03] <Fujitsu> ... devel subforum!?
[12:03] <LaserJock> forums and IRC are time suckers
[12:03] <Fujitsu> That's just wrong.
[12:03] <LaserJock> why?
[12:03] <imbrandon> there is a devel subforum ?
[12:03] <LaserJock> of course
[12:04] <Fujitsu> Because none of the developers go there often, it's just silly
[12:04] <LaserJock> they have always had a suforum for the development release
[12:04] <Fujitsu> Oh.
[12:04] <zul> yippe skippe...xen-image-xen0-2.6.17-1-generic_2.6.17-1_i386.deb
[12:04] <Fujitsu> Development /release/.
[12:04] <Fujitsu> zul, yay.
[12:05] <LaserJock> uggh
[12:05] <Fujitsu> Gah. People reporting wengo broken dependencies..
[12:05] <LaserJock> I give up :-)
[12:05] <Fujitsu> In the forum.