/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/09/29/#upstart.txt

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Admiral_Chicagofacinating conversation eh?03:30
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Trevelyan`well it seems that everyone else here is in a different timezone to me, and/or different working hours.10:16
Keybukoh?10:21
Keybukit's been quiet here for a few days10:21
Keybukubuntu beta release all that10:21
Keybukwhich I mostly spent chicken-pecking in vmware while playing transport tycoon in another window <g>10:21
Trevelyan`i only said that because my backlog has chat in it, but always during the night 7pm to 4am.10:22
Keybukheh10:24
Keybukwhich timezone are you in?10:24
Trevelyan`UTC+1 but will be UTC+0 when we switch from DST =)10:24
Keybuksame as me then, technically10:24
KeybukI'm just not very good at actually obeying my own timzone10:25
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juergbihi Keybuk any comments to my mail "local job changes"?10:53
Keybukjuergbi: none other than thanks for bring it up, and that it does need to be thought about ;)10:56
KeybukI honestly haven't thought about that too much yet10:56
juergbiKeybuk: ok, i just hope that something like my proposal can be integrated before it's already too painful to make changes to the directory structure ;)10:59
KeybukI'm not sure about the two files method thoug11:00
Keybukit's easy to add stanzas, but not remove them11:00
Keybukif you didn't want the pre-start script, how would you "remove" that?11:00
juergbithere could be an additional element / keyword to prefix a line with which will result in removing a previous definition11:01
juergbii.e. "no start script" or "remove start script"11:01
Keybukat that point, you may as well just edit the priginal file though, surely?11:01
Keybukand have an intelligent merge tool11:01
juergbifor well setup packages disable/enable is probably the only thing that gets used often11:02
juergbiso it could also be a simpler file where just overridden enable/disable status gets listed11:02
juergbii'd be perfectly fine with that but the proposed approach would be more flexible11:03
Keybukprobably also changes to the set of events that can trigger the job11:04
juergbiyes, that's right11:04
juergbisomething like "no start on ..." to disable some triggers doesn't seem to bad to me11:05
Keybukexcept that you're then putting quite complex config file merging code into the init daemon to cope with shit package managers11:06
juergbii don't know upstart's parsing code but i presume that it would be fairly easy to implement something like that11:06
Keybuknot especially actually11:07
Keybukyou'd have to parse them both at the same time, no?11:07
Keybukor have code to deal with a "no" stanza and potentially remove or reset it11:07
juergbione right after the other like it was concatenated together11:07
Keybukbut that's actually complex11:08
juergbijust like iterating over more lines11:08
Keybuk"pid timeout 22"11:08
Keybuk"no pid timeout"11:08
Keybukwhat's the pid timeout?11:08
juergbilike it hasn't been specified11:08
juergbithe later one wins11:08
juergbiso the distro-supplied should be parsed first11:08
Keybukwhich means you need to duplicate the entire config file parsing code11:08
Keybukand have a "reset to default" option11:08
juergbiyou're right with being able to get the default, yes11:09
juergbibut the parsing could definitively be shared, imo11:09
Keybukit can't, because the parsing has to be different11:09
Keybukpid timeout <int> != no pid timeout11:09
Keybukotherwise what does "no pid timeout 42" mean? :p11:10
juergbi;)11:10
juergbii'd just allow all the no-stanzas in the original config file, too. it doesn't make sense to use them there but it'd be logical and easier11:10
juergbias written before, just look at them like one large file11:11
Keybukyeah, but you'd still have to write the config parsing code for the no stanzas11:11
Keybukwhich is reasonably large11:11
juergbiyes, sure11:11
Keybukand some of them are quite complicated11:11
Keybukfor example11:11
Keybuk"no start on job-started apache2"11:11
Keybukyou have to iterate the list of known start events for an event that matches11:12
juergbior maybe just check for "no" at the beginning of the parsing and then set a flag11:12
Keybukand do you then require an exact, or just a partial, match?11:12
juergbithat would have to be defined. exat should suffice in my opinion11:12
juergbiit could also be done in something like a pre-processing stage, i.e. just ignore all lines that are followed by the same line with a "no" prefix11:13
juergbibut that wouldn't suit well the script stanzas, i guess11:13
Keybukthat'd mean you'd have to process the /etc one first to read the no lines, then the /lib one to get the defaults, then the /etc one to get the overrides11:13
juergbiwith pre-processing, yes, was probably a bad idea11:14
Keybukwhat's wrong with just the usual conffile stuff on upgrade?11:14
Keybukor ucf if you want three-way merging11:14
juergbiit's jsut less error-prone with separate files than with standard three-way merging11:15
juergbithings like white-space or comment changes at the wrong place shouldn't have influence on the final config file11:16
juergbiless questions, easier for the admin11:16
Keybukthree-way merging can be done intelligently11:16
Keybukie. by parsing both files and analysing the difference, rather than using patch11:16
juergbiyou mean format-specific?11:16
Keybukyes11:16
juergbiyes, sure, that would probably work very well11:16
juergbibut that would require effort for every distro instead of just making upstart more flexible11:17
juergbior adding such a three-way merge tool to upstart itself, that would be possible, too11:17
juergbii'm assuming that such a tool would require more work than modifying upstart, though11:17
Keybukthe main reason I don't like the /lib idea is actually that it hides the config files11:17
Keybukit means you go into /etc/event.d and find that it's empty11:18
Keybukso you then have to read the /lib version11:18
Keybukand then decide what changes you want to make, and only write those changes in a pseudo-diff format11:18
Keybukand then you actually have an interesting problem which is that upgrades can break you silently11:19
Keybukat least with a conffile prompt, you know it might break11:19
juergbithe advantage is that if you look at your changes some time later you know exactly what you've changed11:19
Keybukthe obvious example being "no start on job-started apachew"11:19
Keybukwhat if the upstream change that in the /lib one to "start on job-start apache2" instead11:19
Keybuksuddenly your admin edit is ignored11:19
Keybuk(silently)11:19
juergbiyes, that's right, that would also be problematic for three-way merging, though11:20
Keybukat least having to do the merge means you're aware of the problem11:20
juergbithe events are part of the system interface and should be treated with corresponding stability guarantees, though11:21
juergbiyou can break every scheme if you want to but some make it harder11:21
Keybukjob-started and job-start are both vaild events11:21
Keybukissued at different times11:21
juergbiah, i thought it was a version number change or something like that of the apache start script11:22
Keybukthe upstream may have just wanted to slightly change when their job was started11:22
juergbiyes, that's right11:22
Keybukwhich would suddenly break the sysadmin's change to make it *not* start11:22
juergbiyes, might be problematic11:23
Keybukit's a complicated issue :p11:23
juergbiwhat'd you say to a separate enable/disable file, at least?11:24
juergbishould be very easy and non-problematic11:24
Keybukpart of the reason I haven't applied _ion's patch yet is that I'm tempted that jobs shouldn't be disabled in the job files, but separately11:25
juergbigood to hear that :)11:25
Keybukalso understanding what disabled means11:25
Keybukif a job is disabled, can it be started manually?11:25
juergbiintuitively i'd assume it's just like it had no start-stanzas11:26
Keybukright, Johan's patch actually prevents manual starts as well11:26
Keybukwhich is functionally equivalent to just deleting the /etc/event.d file :)11:27
juergbiright ;)11:27
juergbithere could also be a tri-state like service management in windows11:27
juergbidisabled-manual-auto11:28
Keybuk*nods*11:29
juergbiif a job is running and set to manual it should probably remain running and if the job is set to disabled it should be stopped, i guess11:36
juergbiwhen i get some time, i might even write a patch for it but can't right now11:37
juergbisyntax should be very simple, something like "job-name enabled|manual|disabled"?11:38
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LeoOhello I made the mistake to install upstart without upstart-compat-sysv and now I can't boot at all anymore02:25
LeoOany solution ?02:25
thomLeoO: init=/bin/sh at the end of your grub command line02:26
LeoOthe error I get is init: rc-default process (4028) terminated with status 12702:26
LeoOokay I'll try this02:27
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LeoOinit=/bin/sh at the end of the grub file didn't do the trick02:46
LeoOI'm still stuck with upstart without upstart-compat-sysv and now way to boot (even in safe mode)02:47
cortanais there a previous init=something parameter?02:47
cortanaperhaps the kernel only looks at the first one02:47
LeoOit's giving me a "init: unable to exectute '//sbin/logd/' ...'02:47
cortanae.g. kernel /boot/foobar root=/dev/hda1 ro init=/bin/bash02:48
LeoOoksa02:48
LeoOlets try that02:48
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LeoOok now I can reach sh but apt-get will not work03:08
Keybukmount -o rw,remount /03:08
Keybuk?03:09
LeoOttried mount -F -o rw, remount/03:09
LeoOsent me error messages but I didn't wrote them down03:09
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LeoOokay now I could get rid of upstart but apt-get is trying to connect to the internet to reinstal sysvinit and since the network is not up it is a problem03:26
Keybukconfigure the network by hand?03:26
LeoOhow do you do that03:27
Keybukmodprobe, ifconfig, dhclient, etc.03:28
LeoOthat sound messy03:28
Keybukyou're running Debian?03:28
Keybukor Ubuntu?03:28
LeoOmaybe it would be sipmler to just reinstall ubuntu03:28
LeoOedgy ubuntu03:28
Keybukjust run /etc/init.d/rcS03:28
Keybukif you're running edgy, how come you had to install upstart-compat-sysv ?  it's installed by default03:29
LeoOno03:29
LeoOlet me explain03:29
LeoOI had edgy03:29
LeoObut sysvinti was installed03:29
LeoOsysvinit03:29
LeoOand no upstart at all03:29
Keybukan old edgy?03:29
LeoOits was an update from dapper03:29
LeoOit was dist-upgraded everyday03:30
LeoOyet, there was no upstart03:30
LeoOso I apt-get installed it03:30
Keybukyou didn't have ubuntu-minimal installed then?03:30
Keybukit probably got uninstalled by your system trying to keep sysvinit03:30
LeoOI don't know03:30
Keybukwe had some problems with that03:30
LeoOthere was some heavy problems with apt-get these last days03:31
LeoOso03:31
Keybukyeah, not surprising03:31
Keybukit is in development, after all03:31
Keybukedgy's not been too bad03:31
LeoOapt-get install upstart removed sysvinti and didn't install upstart-compat-sysv03:31
Keybukthere haven't been many days that have left you without a functioning system03:31
Keybukoften you can have a week or two without even a working libc03:31
LeoOyeah03:31
LeoOthat's true03:32
Keybukit would have told you that you really should install upstart-compat-sysv in the apt-get output03:32
LeoOedgy is very stable for a rc03:32
LeoOno it didn't03:32
LeoOjust didn't said a word about it03:32
LeoOusing synaptic03:32
Keybukoh, dunno about synaptic03:32
Keybukyou said apt-get :)03:32
LeoOyaeah I was wrong03:32
LeoOthis is a big issue that synaptic doesn't behaves the same way apt-get does03:33
LeoOwell03:33
KeybukRecommended packages:03:33
Keybuk  upstart-compat-sysv upstart-logd system-services03:33
KeybukThe following packages will be installed:03:33
Keybuk  upstart03:33
Keybuketc.03:33
LeoOnow I gonna reboot to try to see if I can cure that03:34
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leoOthaks for the help guys Im now back on dapper04:06
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TheBearded1_Could somebody tell me how upstart compares to initng?09:26
_ioninitng is based on dependencies, upstart is based on events.09:41
_ionSearch for 'initng' at http://www.netsplit.com/blog/articles/2006/08/26/upstart-in-universe09:42
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