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| Admiral_Chicago | facinating conversation eh? | 03:30 |
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| Trevelyan` | well it seems that everyone else here is in a different timezone to me, and/or different working hours. | 10:16 |
| Keybuk | oh? | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | it's been quiet here for a few days | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | ubuntu beta release all that | 10:21 |
| Keybuk | which I mostly spent chicken-pecking in vmware while playing transport tycoon in another window <g> | 10:21 |
| Trevelyan` | i only said that because my backlog has chat in it, but always during the night 7pm to 4am. | 10:22 |
| Keybuk | heh | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | which timezone are you in? | 10:24 |
| Trevelyan` | UTC+1 but will be UTC+0 when we switch from DST =) | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | same as me then, technically | 10:24 |
| Keybuk | I'm just not very good at actually obeying my own timzone | 10:25 |
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| juergbi | hi Keybuk any comments to my mail "local job changes"? | 10:53 |
| Keybuk | juergbi: none other than thanks for bring it up, and that it does need to be thought about ;) | 10:56 |
| Keybuk | I honestly haven't thought about that too much yet | 10:56 |
| juergbi | Keybuk: ok, i just hope that something like my proposal can be integrated before it's already too painful to make changes to the directory structure ;) | 10:59 |
| Keybuk | I'm not sure about the two files method thoug | 11:00 |
| Keybuk | it's easy to add stanzas, but not remove them | 11:00 |
| Keybuk | if you didn't want the pre-start script, how would you "remove" that? | 11:00 |
| juergbi | there could be an additional element / keyword to prefix a line with which will result in removing a previous definition | 11:01 |
| juergbi | i.e. "no start script" or "remove start script" | 11:01 |
| Keybuk | at that point, you may as well just edit the priginal file though, surely? | 11:01 |
| Keybuk | and have an intelligent merge tool | 11:01 |
| juergbi | for well setup packages disable/enable is probably the only thing that gets used often | 11:02 |
| juergbi | so it could also be a simpler file where just overridden enable/disable status gets listed | 11:02 |
| juergbi | i'd be perfectly fine with that but the proposed approach would be more flexible | 11:03 |
| Keybuk | probably also changes to the set of events that can trigger the job | 11:04 |
| juergbi | yes, that's right | 11:04 |
| juergbi | something like "no start on ..." to disable some triggers doesn't seem to bad to me | 11:05 |
| Keybuk | except that you're then putting quite complex config file merging code into the init daemon to cope with shit package managers | 11:06 |
| juergbi | i don't know upstart's parsing code but i presume that it would be fairly easy to implement something like that | 11:06 |
| Keybuk | not especially actually | 11:07 |
| Keybuk | you'd have to parse them both at the same time, no? | 11:07 |
| Keybuk | or have code to deal with a "no" stanza and potentially remove or reset it | 11:07 |
| juergbi | one right after the other like it was concatenated together | 11:07 |
| Keybuk | but that's actually complex | 11:08 |
| juergbi | just like iterating over more lines | 11:08 |
| Keybuk | "pid timeout 22" | 11:08 |
| Keybuk | "no pid timeout" | 11:08 |
| Keybuk | what's the pid timeout? | 11:08 |
| juergbi | like it hasn't been specified | 11:08 |
| juergbi | the later one wins | 11:08 |
| juergbi | so the distro-supplied should be parsed first | 11:08 |
| Keybuk | which means you need to duplicate the entire config file parsing code | 11:08 |
| Keybuk | and have a "reset to default" option | 11:08 |
| juergbi | you're right with being able to get the default, yes | 11:09 |
| juergbi | but the parsing could definitively be shared, imo | 11:09 |
| Keybuk | it can't, because the parsing has to be different | 11:09 |
| Keybuk | pid timeout <int> != no pid timeout | 11:09 |
| Keybuk | otherwise what does "no pid timeout 42" mean? :p | 11:10 |
| juergbi | ;) | 11:10 |
| juergbi | i'd just allow all the no-stanzas in the original config file, too. it doesn't make sense to use them there but it'd be logical and easier | 11:10 |
| juergbi | as written before, just look at them like one large file | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | yeah, but you'd still have to write the config parsing code for the no stanzas | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | which is reasonably large | 11:11 |
| juergbi | yes, sure | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | and some of them are quite complicated | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | for example | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | "no start on job-started apache2" | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | you have to iterate the list of known start events for an event that matches | 11:12 |
| juergbi | or maybe just check for "no" at the beginning of the parsing and then set a flag | 11:12 |
| Keybuk | and do you then require an exact, or just a partial, match? | 11:12 |
| juergbi | that would have to be defined. exat should suffice in my opinion | 11:12 |
| juergbi | it could also be done in something like a pre-processing stage, i.e. just ignore all lines that are followed by the same line with a "no" prefix | 11:13 |
| juergbi | but that wouldn't suit well the script stanzas, i guess | 11:13 |
| Keybuk | that'd mean you'd have to process the /etc one first to read the no lines, then the /lib one to get the defaults, then the /etc one to get the overrides | 11:13 |
| juergbi | with pre-processing, yes, was probably a bad idea | 11:14 |
| Keybuk | what's wrong with just the usual conffile stuff on upgrade? | 11:14 |
| Keybuk | or ucf if you want three-way merging | 11:14 |
| juergbi | it's jsut less error-prone with separate files than with standard three-way merging | 11:15 |
| juergbi | things like white-space or comment changes at the wrong place shouldn't have influence on the final config file | 11:16 |
| juergbi | less questions, easier for the admin | 11:16 |
| Keybuk | three-way merging can be done intelligently | 11:16 |
| Keybuk | ie. by parsing both files and analysing the difference, rather than using patch | 11:16 |
| juergbi | you mean format-specific? | 11:16 |
| Keybuk | yes | 11:16 |
| juergbi | yes, sure, that would probably work very well | 11:16 |
| juergbi | but that would require effort for every distro instead of just making upstart more flexible | 11:17 |
| juergbi | or adding such a three-way merge tool to upstart itself, that would be possible, too | 11:17 |
| juergbi | i'm assuming that such a tool would require more work than modifying upstart, though | 11:17 |
| Keybuk | the main reason I don't like the /lib idea is actually that it hides the config files | 11:17 |
| Keybuk | it means you go into /etc/event.d and find that it's empty | 11:18 |
| Keybuk | so you then have to read the /lib version | 11:18 |
| Keybuk | and then decide what changes you want to make, and only write those changes in a pseudo-diff format | 11:18 |
| Keybuk | and then you actually have an interesting problem which is that upgrades can break you silently | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | at least with a conffile prompt, you know it might break | 11:19 |
| juergbi | the advantage is that if you look at your changes some time later you know exactly what you've changed | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | the obvious example being "no start on job-started apachew" | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | what if the upstream change that in the /lib one to "start on job-start apache2" instead | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | suddenly your admin edit is ignored | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | (silently) | 11:19 |
| juergbi | yes, that's right, that would also be problematic for three-way merging, though | 11:20 |
| Keybuk | at least having to do the merge means you're aware of the problem | 11:20 |
| juergbi | the events are part of the system interface and should be treated with corresponding stability guarantees, though | 11:21 |
| juergbi | you can break every scheme if you want to but some make it harder | 11:21 |
| Keybuk | job-started and job-start are both vaild events | 11:21 |
| Keybuk | issued at different times | 11:21 |
| juergbi | ah, i thought it was a version number change or something like that of the apache start script | 11:22 |
| Keybuk | the upstream may have just wanted to slightly change when their job was started | 11:22 |
| juergbi | yes, that's right | 11:22 |
| Keybuk | which would suddenly break the sysadmin's change to make it *not* start | 11:22 |
| juergbi | yes, might be problematic | 11:23 |
| Keybuk | it's a complicated issue :p | 11:23 |
| juergbi | what'd you say to a separate enable/disable file, at least? | 11:24 |
| juergbi | should be very easy and non-problematic | 11:24 |
| Keybuk | part of the reason I haven't applied _ion's patch yet is that I'm tempted that jobs shouldn't be disabled in the job files, but separately | 11:25 |
| juergbi | good to hear that :) | 11:25 |
| Keybuk | also understanding what disabled means | 11:25 |
| Keybuk | if a job is disabled, can it be started manually? | 11:25 |
| juergbi | intuitively i'd assume it's just like it had no start-stanzas | 11:26 |
| Keybuk | right, Johan's patch actually prevents manual starts as well | 11:26 |
| Keybuk | which is functionally equivalent to just deleting the /etc/event.d file :) | 11:27 |
| juergbi | right ;) | 11:27 |
| juergbi | there could also be a tri-state like service management in windows | 11:27 |
| juergbi | disabled-manual-auto | 11:28 |
| Keybuk | *nods* | 11:29 |
| juergbi | if a job is running and set to manual it should probably remain running and if the job is set to disabled it should be stopped, i guess | 11:36 |
| juergbi | when i get some time, i might even write a patch for it but can't right now | 11:37 |
| juergbi | syntax should be very simple, something like "job-name enabled|manual|disabled"? | 11:38 |
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| LeoO | hello I made the mistake to install upstart without upstart-compat-sysv and now I can't boot at all anymore | 02:25 |
| LeoO | any solution ? | 02:25 |
| thom | LeoO: init=/bin/sh at the end of your grub command line | 02:26 |
| LeoO | the error I get is init: rc-default process (4028) terminated with status 127 | 02:26 |
| LeoO | okay I'll try this | 02:27 |
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| LeoO | init=/bin/sh at the end of the grub file didn't do the trick | 02:46 |
| LeoO | I'm still stuck with upstart without upstart-compat-sysv and now way to boot (even in safe mode) | 02:47 |
| cortana | is there a previous init=something parameter? | 02:47 |
| cortana | perhaps the kernel only looks at the first one | 02:47 |
| LeoO | it's giving me a "init: unable to exectute '//sbin/logd/' ...' | 02:47 |
| cortana | e.g. kernel /boot/foobar root=/dev/hda1 ro init=/bin/bash | 02:48 |
| LeoO | oksa | 02:48 |
| LeoO | lets try that | 02:48 |
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| LeoO | ok now I can reach sh but apt-get will not work | 03:08 |
| Keybuk | mount -o rw,remount / | 03:08 |
| Keybuk | ? | 03:09 |
| LeoO | ttried mount -F -o rw, remount/ | 03:09 |
| LeoO | sent me error messages but I didn't wrote them down | 03:09 |
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| LeoO | okay now I could get rid of upstart but apt-get is trying to connect to the internet to reinstal sysvinit and since the network is not up it is a problem | 03:26 |
| Keybuk | configure the network by hand? | 03:26 |
| LeoO | how do you do that | 03:27 |
| Keybuk | modprobe, ifconfig, dhclient, etc. | 03:28 |
| LeoO | that sound messy | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | you're running Debian? | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | or Ubuntu? | 03:28 |
| LeoO | maybe it would be sipmler to just reinstall ubuntu | 03:28 |
| LeoO | edgy ubuntu | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | just run /etc/init.d/rcS | 03:28 |
| Keybuk | if you're running edgy, how come you had to install upstart-compat-sysv ? it's installed by default | 03:29 |
| LeoO | no | 03:29 |
| LeoO | let me explain | 03:29 |
| LeoO | I had edgy | 03:29 |
| LeoO | but sysvinti was installed | 03:29 |
| LeoO | sysvinit | 03:29 |
| LeoO | and no upstart at all | 03:29 |
| Keybuk | an old edgy? | 03:29 |
| LeoO | its was an update from dapper | 03:29 |
| LeoO | it was dist-upgraded everyday | 03:30 |
| LeoO | yet, there was no upstart | 03:30 |
| LeoO | so I apt-get installed it | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | you didn't have ubuntu-minimal installed then? | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | it probably got uninstalled by your system trying to keep sysvinit | 03:30 |
| LeoO | I don't know | 03:30 |
| Keybuk | we had some problems with that | 03:30 |
| LeoO | there was some heavy problems with apt-get these last days | 03:31 |
| LeoO | so | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | yeah, not surprising | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | it is in development, after all | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | edgy's not been too bad | 03:31 |
| LeoO | apt-get install upstart removed sysvinti and didn't install upstart-compat-sysv | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | there haven't been many days that have left you without a functioning system | 03:31 |
| Keybuk | often you can have a week or two without even a working libc | 03:31 |
| LeoO | yeah | 03:31 |
| LeoO | that's true | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | it would have told you that you really should install upstart-compat-sysv in the apt-get output | 03:32 |
| LeoO | edgy is very stable for a rc | 03:32 |
| LeoO | no it didn't | 03:32 |
| LeoO | just didn't said a word about it | 03:32 |
| LeoO | using synaptic | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | oh, dunno about synaptic | 03:32 |
| Keybuk | you said apt-get :) | 03:32 |
| LeoO | yaeah I was wrong | 03:32 |
| LeoO | this is a big issue that synaptic doesn't behaves the same way apt-get does | 03:33 |
| LeoO | well | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | Recommended packages: | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | upstart-compat-sysv upstart-logd system-services | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | The following packages will be installed: | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | upstart | 03:33 |
| Keybuk | etc. | 03:33 |
| LeoO | now I gonna reboot to try to see if I can cure that | 03:34 |
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| leoO | thaks for the help guys Im now back on dapper | 04:06 |
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| TheBearded1_ | Could somebody tell me how upstart compares to initng? | 09:26 |
| _ion | initng is based on dependencies, upstart is based on events. | 09:41 |
| _ion | Search for 'initng' at http://www.netsplit.com/blog/articles/2006/08/26/upstart-in-universe | 09:42 |
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