[10:26] <ddaa> _thumper_: we you informed that the bazaar meeting has been postponed by 24h
[10:26] <_thumper_> yep
[10:27] <ddaa> for reason of today being a holiday in relevant parts of .au
[10:27] <_thumper_> I think poolie included me in the emails
[10:27] <ddaa> good
[10:28] <ddaa> _thumper_: so, what are you up to?
[10:28] <_thumper_> ddaa, going through the new starter wiki page
[10:28] <_thumper_> adding myself to the appropriate pages
[10:28] <_thumper_> mailing lists et al
[10:29] <ddaa> The one about updating a few pages on wiki.canonical.com etc.?
[10:29] <SteveA> there's also the "canonical admin" system for managing vacation time and expenses etc.
[10:29] <_thumper_> I don't seem to have a login to that yet
[10:29] <SteveA> one day, we'll have a cohesive system for these things...
[10:29] <SteveA> ask clan about that
[10:30] <_thumper_> clan?
[10:30] <ddaa> Claire Newman
[10:30] <_thumper_> ok
[10:30] <ddaa> give or take one letter in the last name
[10:32] <_thumper_> I'm slightly miffed this morning as my older laptop's backlight has just gone futt
[10:32] <SteveA> replaceable?
[10:32] <_thumper_> yeah, but the question is "is it worth replacing"
[10:32] <_thumper_> it isn't my primary laptop now as it is *heavy*
[10:32] <_thumper_> I could just run it through an external monitor
[10:32] <ddaa> _thumper_: I know you are eyeing one of those shiny dual core lappies :)
[10:33] <_thumper_> got one :-)
[10:33] <_thumper_> vaio sz2xp
[10:33] <ddaa> I promised myself I bought the next lappy from one of those linux-friendly manufacturers
[10:33] <ddaa> anyway...
[10:34] <ddaa> Jumping through all hoops of the NewStaffTasks is going to take a little while
[10:34] <ddaa> esp. setting up the jabber client that nobody uses
[10:34] <SteveA> I use jabber with people
[10:34] <_thumper_> I have MSN and yahoo IM alreaddy
[10:34] <ddaa> strike that, the jabber client that I should be using
[10:34] <ddaa> if only jabber.org was halfway reliable
[10:34] <SteveA> I'm also on msn and yahoo
[10:34] <SteveA> but not so much for work
[10:35] <_thumper_> if jabber is actually used, I should go and create one
[10:35] <SteveA> _thumper_: steve@z3u.com for MSN and kaguanas for yahoo
[10:35] <ddaa> After that, there is probably an half out-of-date page about how to set-up Launchpad development environment somewhere on launchpad.canonical.com
[10:36] <SteveA> ddaa: you're sounding very negative today
[10:36] <SteveA> or maybe that's cynical
[10:36] <SteveA> have a smoke and a coffee, perhaps?
[10:36] <ddaa> SteveA: bah, got some adversity at home, but I guess that should not affect my work
[10:36] <SteveA> ping me later if you want to have a private rant about it ;-)
[10:36] <ddaa> SteveA: the truth is, I noticed how many references to Arch stuff and old import stuff there are still on the wiki.canonical.com
[10:37] <_thumper_> since launchpad is backed by a real db, do dev versions need postgresql too?
[10:37] <_thumper_> as opposed to zodb which is easy :)
[10:37] <ddaa> yes
[10:37] <ddaa> the database setup instructions are quite up to date on the other hand
[10:37] <ddaa> which is good because it's not easy to guess
[10:38] <SteveA> on your development machine, you're running a miniature version of the launchpad we run in production
[10:38] <_thumper_> I'll do all that on the laptop as this box is going to be in a container for two months
[10:38] <SteveA> I'm leaving non-laptops non-macminis here in lithuania
[10:39] <SteveA> I don't believe they'll still work on the other side of the trip to amsterdam
[10:39] <ddaa> which means that between launchpad, bzr and the rest, you need about 1GB RAM to work comfortably
[10:39] <_thumper_> lappie has 1G
[10:39] <ddaa> same here
[10:40] <_thumper_> btw, tim@penhey.net on MSN, timbo_kiwi on yahoo
[10:40] <_thumper_> since I'm not technically working on bzr source, is the dapper package suitable?
[10:41] <ddaa> _thumper_: there's some custom source we should be using, so when the launchpad devs are asked to dogfood some rc package you get it automatically.
[10:41] <ddaa> but most of the time, the policy is to use the package in the current released ubuntu
[10:42] <ddaa> from my apt/sources.list
[10:42] <ddaa> # testing bzr for launchpad devos
[10:42] <ddaa> deb http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/scratchy/ ./
[10:43] <_thumper_> ok, I'll add that in
[10:44] <ddaa> Most of the instructions for Launchpad dev setup should be there
[10:44] <ddaa> https://launchpad.canonical.com/FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=setup&titlesearch=Titles
[10:44] <ddaa> Ignore "AutoBuildSlaveSetup"
[10:44] <_thumper_> auth?
[10:45] <ddaa> cannot tell you here
[10:45] <ddaa> and actually, I'm looking it up :)
[10:45] <_thumper_> email?
[10:45] <SteveA> I'll email it
[10:45] <_thumper_> ok
[10:47] <_thumper_> probably one of the most stressful things at the moment is moving my domains
[10:47] <_thumper_> it is the one that I collect all my mail from
[10:47] <ddaa> SteveA: seriously, I think warning that https://launchpad.canonical.com/RocketFuelSetup is half out of date is not being negative. It's being informative.
[10:47] <_thumper_> how badly out of date is it?
[10:47] <_thumper_> usable?
[10:48] <SteveA> try going though it
[10:48] <SteveA> anything that doesn't work, ask here
[10:48] <_thumper_> ok
[10:48] <ddaa> Like, do not try to contact James Blackwell, he left the company several months ago
[10:48] <SteveA> we'll help, and you can update the page as you go
[10:48] <_thumper_> is there a mailing list I should partake in?
[10:49] <ddaa> launchpad@lists.canonical.com
[10:50] <ddaa> primary list for all development discussion, restricted to company members
[10:50] <ddaa> launchpad-users@lists.canonical.com
[10:50] <SteveA> you should be on:
[10:50] <ddaa> public discussion of launchpad
[10:50] <SteveA> launchpad, launchpad-users, allhands, warthogs
[10:50] <_thumper_> I've done allhands and warthogs so far
[10:50] <_thumper_> also got on bazaar-ng some time ago (few weeks)
[10:51] <_thumper_> and kubuntu-users
[10:51] <_thumper_> and ubuntu-users I think
[10:51] <_thumper_> I don't read them all though
[10:51] <ddaa> hu... your probably do not want to stay on ubuntu-users
[10:51] <_thumper_> the -users one that is
[10:51] <_thumper_> something interesting every now an then...
[10:52] <ddaa> it's very high traffic, and mostly not relevant to launchpad development
[10:52] <_thumper_> I'm not on it for work purposes :)
[10:52] <ddaa> sure, but then it's a personal choice :)
[10:52] <ddaa> eventually, you may want to subscribe to launchpad-bugs, but you'll need to set up quite a few mail filters to keep it useful
[10:53] <_thumper_> I think I have about 30 filters running already
[10:53] <ddaa> There is a X-Launchpad-Bug header in all mail sent by the launchpad bug tracking system
[10:53] <ddaa> that allows you to sort bugspam by product
[10:53] <_thumper_> handy
[10:54] <ddaa> so I actually only look at bugspam about launchpad and launcphad-bazaar products
[10:54] <ddaa> all the rest, the filter marks as "read" and I keep archived just in case
[10:54] <_thumper_> high volume?
[10:55] <ddaa> yes
[10:55] <ddaa> all the launchpad devs and users generate quite a bit of bug activity
[10:57] <ddaa> need to answer the morning call of nature now, and then phone with mpt about the launchpad 1.0 UI changes for code.launchpad.net pages
[10:57] <ddaa> back in ~ 1 hour I think
[10:59] <_thumper_> np
[11:34] <_thumper_> i'm guessing that allhands and warthogs have to be authorised by someone as I don't have acceptance emails from them yet
[11:52] <ddaa> yup
[11:53] <ddaa> these are restricted lists and need moderator approval
[11:53] <_thumper_> thought as much
[11:53] <ddaa> BTW, there is a smtp.canonical.com that forwards only emails from canonical.com and ubuntu.com
[11:54] <ddaa> quite fast and reliable
[11:54] <_thumper_> could be useful
[11:54] <ddaa> it actually made people start using their @canonical.com email addresses :)
[11:55] <ddaa> well, some people were using them before, but I have seen a strong rise in usage since the smtp was put in place
[11:56] <ddaa> You'll find about it in the allhands archive
[11:56] <_thumper_> ah, where are those mail archives>
[11:57] <ddaa> allhands is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/allhands
[11:58] <ddaa> you'll need your ML password of course to access the archive
[11:58] <_thumper_> which I don't have yet :)
[11:59] <_thumper_> don't worry, not too bothered yet
[12:03] <ddaa> how familiar with bzr are you, at the moment?
[12:03] <_thumper_> not
[12:04] <_thumper_> been reading the website docs from time to time
[12:04] <ddaa> okay, so about RocketFuelSetup
[12:05] <ddaa> some remarks to help you avoid wrong tracks
[12:05] <_thumper_> got the dependencies installed
[12:05] <ddaa> * JamesBlackwell not here anymore
[12:05] <ddaa> * references to chinstrap should be replaced by devpad
[12:06] <ddaa> * The sample bazaar.conf might be obsolete, in particular "check_signatures=require" used to mean "always sign revisions" (yes, it was a bug)
[12:07] <ddaa> The stuff about ~/.arch-params is cruft, as it was the baz (GNU Arch) config stuff
[12:07] <_thumper_> ok
[12:07] <_thumper_> looks like I need to organise the login to devpad through ssh
[12:07] <ddaa> mh
[12:08] <ddaa> Host devpad devpad.canonical.com
[12:08] <ddaa>     HostName devpad.canonical.com
[12:08] <ddaa>     ProxyCommand ssh chinstrap.ubuntu.com nc -q0 %h %p
[12:08] <ddaa> in your ~/.ssh/config
[12:08] <ddaa> chinstrap is still the ssh proxy for all DC access
[12:09] <_thumper_> ok
[12:10] <ddaa> the rocketfuel-get script on that page appears mostly up to date
[12:10] <ddaa> but I do not use it, since it overrides bzr locking and thus can lead to pain
[12:12] <ddaa> YMMV here, depending on connectivity and the sort of work your are doing, but here is what I do
[12:12] <ddaa> I have a mirror of rocketfuel-built in ~/canonical/upstream-launcphad
[12:12] <ddaa> that I update with a trivial rsync script
[12:12] <ddaa> manually
[12:13] <_thumper_> ok
[12:13] <ddaa> Then I have on bzr repository for each branch in there (that is the launchpad branch, and all the branches in ./sourcecode)
[12:13] <_thumper_> what technically is rocketfuel?
[12:13] <ddaa> each repository contains a branch, whose parent is the corresponding branch in rocketfuel-built
[12:14] <ddaa> so I do "bzr pull" to pull the rocketfuel data into those repos
[12:14] <ddaa> then when I create a new work branch, I make it as a branch in this repo, and I push with bzr to devpad.
[12:15] <ddaa> Initially, you will want to prime your bzr repositories locally on devpad
[12:15] <ddaa> so you do not have to upload all of rockefuel again
[12:15] <_thumper_> I'm sure all this will make more sense soon 
[12:15] <ddaa> rocketfuel, technically, is the name of launchpad trunk branch
[12:16] <ddaa> only PQM can commit to that branch
[12:16] <_thumper_> PQM?
[12:16] <ddaa> Painful Quibble Master
[12:16] <ddaa> hu
[12:16] <ddaa> Patch Queue Monitor
[12:17] <_thumper_> ok
[12:17] <ddaa> That's an email-driven bot that you use to commit to trunk branches in launchpad development
[12:17] <ddaa> So, you send it a gpg-signed email message (using the bzr pqm-submit plugin)
[12:17] <ddaa> asking to merge one of your branches into the pqm-managed trunk
[12:18] <ddaa> it gets a checkout of the trunk, merge from your feature branch found on devpad
[12:18] <ddaa> bails out if there is any merge conflict
[12:18] <ddaa> runs the FULL GODDAMN test suite
[12:19] <ddaa> bails out and if it there is any failure
[12:19] <ddaa> then commit the merge
[12:19] <_thumper_> and only authorised people can use the bot?
[12:19] <ddaa> normally, when it baills out it should send you an email with some log that can be useful for understanding what failed
[12:20] <ddaa> yes, lifeless (Robert Collins) is the pqm admin, and gives people the right to merge into this or that branch
[12:20] <ddaa> you should probably start with the right to commit on launchpad and cscvs
[12:21] <ddaa> you want to look at http://pqm.launchpad.net/ from time to time
[12:21] <ddaa> to see where your merge requests are in the queue
[12:22] <ddaa> occasionally, the test suite fails in pqm in a way you cannot easily reproduce locally
[12:22] <ddaa> and sometimes, the test suite on pqm just hangs (there are timing bugs that can lead to that)
[12:22] <_thumper_> hmm, not good
[12:23] <ddaa> when the latter happens, you need to ask an admin to SIGINT pqm, then you need to figure out what causes the hang, because when this shit starts happening that pretty much puts development to a halt, and that makes everybody very grumpy
[12:23] <ddaa> luckily, it does not happen that often anymore
[12:23] <ddaa> but no need to worry about that right now
[12:24] <ddaa> just remember that the launchpad test suite runtime is about 45mins on pqm
[12:25] <ddaa> okay, the PQMSetup page is completely obsolete
[12:25] <ddaa> thanks to the bzr-pqm plugin, that makes things quite simpler
[12:26] <ddaa> The DatabaseSetup page should be entirely up to date
[12:26] <ddaa> if you have any problem with that, complain
[12:27] <_thumper_> sure
[12:28] <_thumper_> gotta get gpg keys sorted
[12:28] <ddaa> The SodiumSetup page is mostly not relevant to you (since it's mostly about migrating from chinstrap), but it has an interesting bit at the end about priming up repositories and the location of all trunk branches.
[12:30] <ddaa> I'll walk you through the pqm-submit things when you first have something to commit, probably next week
[12:30] <_thumper_> ok
[12:31] <ddaa> Finding you way around until you have a working local launchpad should keep you busy for a little while. Ask me if you have any question whatsoever.
[12:32] <_thumper_> for the gpg keys, do you use rsa or other?
[12:32] <_thumper_> or does it not matter?
[12:34] <ddaa> whatever the gpg defaults are is considered good enough at any given time
[12:34] <_thumper_> ok
[12:34] <ddaa> but you are free to use something stronger if you wish
[12:34] <ddaa> note that working at canonical can very quickly push your key in the top 2k
[12:35] <ddaa> because most are quite densely cross-signed, and quite a few canonical folks (or ex-canonical, like lamont) are gpg celebrities.
[12:36] <SteveA> how's all the setup going?
[12:36] <SteveA> I wouldn't bother with any of the rocketfuel-get stuff anymore
[12:36] <_thumper_> ok, don't entirely understand how that works, but I guess I don't have to care yet
[12:37] <SteveA> things are easy enough and fast enough when you use repositories
[12:37] <SteveA> and will improve more when we get the smartserver on devpad
[12:37] <ddaa> SteveA told me he wants to keep an "annoying user" posture towards bzr, so if he tells you that repositories are good enough, you can trust him.
[12:38] <ddaa> Unlike me, I am an unashamed bzr fanboy.
[12:38] <_thumper_> I have just used the dapper repositories for launchpad dependancies
[12:39] <jamesh> _thumper_: https://launchpad.canonical.com/WorkingWithSharedRepositories <- this describes the workflow I use to hack on Launchpad
[12:39] <jamesh> using a shared repository
[12:40] <_thumper_> jamesh, thanks
[12:40] <SteveA> hi james.  happy labour day.
[12:40] <ddaa> I have been trying to confuse _thumper_ with lots of more-or-less relevant information. I think I did a pretty good job of it :)
[12:40] <jamesh> SteveA: Queen's Birthday for me, actually
[12:40] <jamesh> Labour Day in NSW
[12:41] <jamesh> ddaa: btw, is importd likely to handle the SVN URL I entered here? https://launchpad.net/products/viewvc/trunk
[12:41] <jamesh> it includes the userinfo needed to connect
[12:42] <ddaa> jamesh: it does not do anything fancy with urls, just hand them over as is to bzrlib
[12:42] <ddaa> I guess that URL might work
[12:42] <jamesh> you mean subversion?
[12:42] <ddaa> s/bzrlib/libsvn/
[12:43] <ddaa> ETOOMANYTLAS
[12:43] <ddaa> jamesh: if you want some quick feedback, I can do a round of imports herding right now
[12:44] <jamesh> ddaa: if you're busy with other stuff, then I can wait
[12:45] <ddaa> I've not yet had time to get myself busy today. But I'm looking forwards to diving into cscvs coding ASAP.
[12:45] <ddaa> So we might actually have a more useful svn import code by the end of the week.
[12:48] <jamesh> we should have the improved +source form up for the next rollout
[12:48] <jamesh> I didn't include the removal of the cvsbranch entry yet -- the diff was getting a bit large, so will do that separately
[01:13] <ddaa> okay that's great
[01:18] <_thumper_> ok, I'm new to gpg... does any one know how I can keep keys on both laptop and desktop?
[01:18] <_thumper_> I'm assuming export only exports public bit
[01:18] <ddaa> rsyncing the ~/.gnupg over works well :)
[01:19] <ddaa> and that saves going nuts over gpg command line options
[01:19] <_thumper_> ok
[01:19] <ddaa> though I guess that gpg zealots will tell you that you should never do that, etc.
[01:20] <_thumper_> well I'm not a zealot and rsync seems ok over my private lan :)
[01:23] <ddaa> jamesh: it didn't go through
[01:23] <ddaa> pysvn._pysvn.ClientError: callback_get_login required
[01:24] <ddaa> though, I can probably get it to work by manually storing the credentials
[01:26] <ddaa> handling authenticated svn should probably be a wishlist or low priority bug
[01:27] <ddaa> though it's rare enough that's it's okay to deal with it manually
[01:27] <ddaa> more troublesome is handling https, as it currently need manual operation to approve the certificate
[01:27] <jamesh> ddaa: thanks for checking.  It seems that the tigris.org SVN always requires auth (even if it to auth as the guest user)
[01:33] <ddaa> jamesh: credentials fixed
[01:49] <ddaa> _thumper_: got it at last (email about the smtp relay server) https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/allhands/2006-August/000181.html
[01:50] <_thumper_> ddaa, thanks, I'll check it out once I'm technically on allhands
[03:15] <_thumper_> from the dapper repositories I have bzr 0.8.2
[03:15] <_thumper_> is that sufficient?
[03:15] <_thumper_> I've notices that the bzr release is somewhat later
[03:24] <_thumper_> jamesh: I'm working through your info on working with shared repositories
[03:24] <_thumper_> what is needed after the bzr init-repo commands?
[03:25] <ddaa> _thumper_: you should add the sources.list line I gave before
[03:26] <ddaa> here I have bzr 0.10
[03:26] <ddaa> that features some very significant performance improvements
[03:26] <ddaa> and also helps API issues with plugins
[03:27] <ddaa> # testing bzr for launchpad devos
[03:27] <ddaa> deb http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/scratchy/ ./
[03:27] <ddaa> once you have done init-repo, you have an empty repository
[03:28] <ddaa> if you create a branch in it, it will use the repository for history storage
[03:28] <ddaa> I think branches in a repo do not have a working tree by default too
[03:28] <ddaa> that helps saving disk space, and speeds up bzr pull for large trees like launchpad
[03:29] <_thumper_> that deb line didn't show updates :(
[03:30] <ddaa> _thumper_: how familiar are you with debian-based systems
[03:30] <_thumper_> s'ok, typo
[03:31] <_thumper_> so what is the simplest way to get a copy of the trunk source for lp?
[03:32] <ddaa> so, what you probably want to start with, is to create a repository on sodium for launcphad, and branch rocketfuel in it. Then make a tarball of it and download it to your workstation
[03:32] <_thumper_> what's sodium? canonical box?
[03:32] <ddaa> it's devpad
[03:33] <ddaa> devpad is an alias to sodium
[03:33] <ddaa> we should use devpad everywhere in config files so the host can be changed quickly if needs arise without breaking configs
[03:34] <ddaa> the little repository gymnastic will allow you to upload your new launchpad branches with only minimal data transfer.
[03:35] <_thumper_> still waiting for login and email from canonical guys
[03:36] <ddaa> mh
[03:37] <ddaa> _thumper_: -> #canonical-sysadmin
[03:37] <ddaa> that's the place to harass sysadmins when you really want to
[03:37] <ddaa> did you file a RT about having an account on devpad?
[03:41] <ddaa> _thumper_: the simplest way to get launchpad code would be "bzr get sftp://devpad/home/warthogs/archives/rocketfuel/launchpad"
[03:41] <ddaa> but it's going to take quite a long time, because launchpad is huge
[03:43] <jamesh> _thumper_: the way a lot of people work is to rsync a copy of the "rocketfuel-built" tree, which includes Launchpad plus a number of its dependencies that we maintain branches of (sqlobject, zope, etc)
[03:43] <jamesh> then pull from that tree locally
[03:45] <_thumper_> jamesh, rsync from devpad?
[03:45] <jamesh> yeah
[03:46] <_thumper_> sounds strange (from a svn bod)
[03:46] <jamesh> _thumper_: if I'm maintaining 3 or 4 development branches, it means I only need to pay the network latency once to update each of them
[03:46] <_thumper_> how much space does the drocketfuel-built take?
[03:47] <jamesh> 552MB currently
[03:47] <_thumper_> ddaa, yes RTs submitted
[03:48] <ddaa> jamesh: I usually make a tarball for the initial transfer. I find it's faster than rsync for priming the state.
[03:49] <ddaa> then rsync for incremental updates
[03:49] <jamesh> ddaa: how does a tarball compare with "scp -R"?
[03:49] <jamesh> or maybe -r
[03:50] <ddaa> No figure at hand, maybe 1.5x or 2x as fast. But it's probably a matter of latency.
[03:58] <ddaa> _thumper_: well, until the accounts are sorted, I do not see a whole lot you could do.
[03:59] <ddaa> maybe just browse through the canonical and launchpad wikis
[03:59] <_thumper_> ddaa, reading docs
[03:59] <_thumper_> trying to get my head around how bzr works :)
[03:59] <ddaa> and do not forget to read wiki.canonical.com/Quotes!
[03:59] <_thumper_> seen some of that 
[04:00] <ddaa> _thumper_: feel free to ask stupid questions in #bzr
[04:01] <_thumper_> ok
[04:01] <ddaa> it's probably about time for the transatlantic folks to get up by now
[04:01] <_thumper_> although I think I'll read first so I don't look too stupid
[04:11] <jamesh> _thumper_: look on the bright side: you could have joined the company while we were still using arch
[04:11] <_thumper_> jamesh, that was bad was it?
[04:12] <jamesh> _thumper_: bazaar is a lot nicer.
[04:13] <jamesh> there are some operations that arch was very slow at (or needed lots of disk and memory to do at reasonable speeds)
[04:15] <SteveA> arch also had a command line syntax that involved typing -- a lot
[04:15] <SteveA> so much so that people joked about adding a "--" key to their keyboards
[04:15] <jamesh> SteveA: look on the bright side: they could have used em dashes
[04:16] <ddaa> nope, tomlord does not believe in unicode
[04:16] <SteveA> _thumper_: so, where are you up to with getting set up?
[04:16] <jamesh> there is so much more punctuation to play with if you use unicode
[04:16] <jamesh> I would have thought he'd love it
[04:16] <ddaa> well, he'd love to replace unicode with his own NIH, actually
[04:17] <_thumper_> SteveA, sysadmins are setting up email and accounts
[04:17] <SteveA> ok, so you don't currently have access to the code
[04:17] <_thumper_> I have dependancies and 0.10 bzr on laptop
[04:17] <_thumper_> no, not yet
[04:17] <_thumper_> been reading the page from jamesh about shared repositories
[04:17] <SteveA> ok.  we can sort that out by tarring up rocketfuel-built and putting it in a web-accessible place on devpad
[04:18] <_thumper_> and reading through database config for lp
[04:18] <SteveA> I'm making such a tarball now
[04:19] <SteveA> you'll be able to download it over http, and switch to using sftp later, when you have an account
[04:19] <_thumper_> ok
[04:22] <SteveA> 308MB
[04:23] <SteveA> once you have this, you'll have all the current revisions and history
[04:23] <SteveA> you can use that set of branches / trees directly
[04:23] <SteveA> or you can branch from them into your repositories
[04:24] <SteveA> and set things up as recommended by jamesh
[04:45] <_thumper_> ddaa, quick question: configuring command line mail command
[04:45] <ddaa> irrelevant
[04:45] <SteveA> um
[04:45] <ddaa> bzr-pqm does it all right for you
[04:45] <SteveA> it's needed if you're to use pqm
[04:46] <SteveA> ddaa: how does bzr-pqm send mail?
[04:46] <_thumper_> just looking the the commands: cat ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub  | gpg --clearsign | mail address_removed...
[04:46] <SteveA> so, you'll need to have that set up
[04:47] <ddaa> bzr-pqm does smtplib
[04:47] <SteveA> although you won't need it until you want to merge code into pqm yourself
[04:47] <ddaa> so it does not care the least about your command-line mail, it talks directly to the MTA
[04:47] <SteveA> I'd rather pqm accepted instruction via POST actually
[04:47] <_thumper_> and where does smtplib determine the MTA?
[04:49] <SteveA> at a total guess, I expect pqm-submit uses localhost by default
[04:49] <SteveA> and maybe has a config option for an alternative
[04:49] <ddaa> _thumper_: it's a config option of bzr-pqm, it defaults to localhost
[04:49] <_thumper_> I don't have a local MTA right now
[04:49] <ddaa> SteveA: score
[04:49] <SteveA> _thumper_: ever done any twisted programming?
[04:49] <_thumper_> got the book :)
[04:49] <SteveA> this need for a local MTA is the source of much woe
[04:50] <SteveA> I'm tempted to suggest you hack a POST url onto PQM that adds a command to its queue.  But, to do that right so that it would be accepted upstream means talking it through with lifeless I think.
[04:51] <SteveA> So, I won't suggest that right now.
[04:51] <ddaa> SteveA: I think bzr-pqm could be easily modified to be able to provide login/passwd to the MTA, so it could use smtp.canonical.com
[04:52] <SteveA> login + password + email address
[04:52] <SteveA> that would be nice also
[04:52] <SteveA> and such a hack should be easily accepted upstream
[04:53] <SteveA> _thumper_: I like ddaa's suggestion, and it might actually be simpler than getting a local MTA set up properly in a way that will work for submitting pqm requests.
[04:54] <SteveA> and it also gets you looking at the code to a bzr plugin
[04:54] <SteveA> which is pertinent to your work
[04:54] <_thumper_> ah, yeah
[04:54] <_thumper_> alright
[04:54] <ddaa> (hint!)
[04:55] <jamesh> the bzr-pqm plugin can do TLS and SMTP auth
[04:55] <jamesh> so you could configure it to use the canonical.com SMTP server
[04:56] <ddaa> mh... mine must be out of date then :/
[04:56] <jamesh> must be.
[04:56] <_thumper_> yay
[04:57] <jamesh> you need to put the smtp_server, smtp_username and smtp_password options in ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf
[05:13] <SteveA> _thumper_: so, that error you got, was that from sending it to pqm?
[05:34] <_thumper_> SteveA, no it was trying to send my ssh pub key to admins
[05:35] <_thumper_> Couldn't do it from devpad (chinstrap, whatever) as I don't have my gpg stuff there
[05:35] <SteveA> ah
[05:35] <_thumper_> so attempting to get postfix working locally
[05:35] <SteveA> I usually use thunderbird + enigmail for gpg
[05:35] <_thumper_> shouldn't be too hard
[05:35] <SteveA> although I used to use mutt a lot
[05:35] <_thumper_> I use kontact on both laptop and server though
[05:35] <_thumper_> I'm not a gnome type person
[05:35] <SteveA> I have postfix set up to do auth smtp to a server I use
[05:36] <SteveA> so I can send you parts of config files if you need it
[05:36] <_thumper_> I think the default dapper bits are reasonable, but I'll check
[05:37] <SteveA> the issues are about what envelope address it's using
[05:37] <SteveA> because that should be routable if you're to receive bounces
[05:37] <SteveA> and whether your machine will be trying to send smtp directly, because that is blocked by many isps
[05:37] <SteveA> or will have the mail marked as spam
[05:38] <SteveA> depending on exactly what network you're on when you're sending the mail
[05:38] <ddaa> yeah, smtp.canonical.com is nice to dodge the blacklists at async
[05:38] <ddaa> async.com.br I mean
[05:39] <SteveA> the other thing I've done before is set up an ssh tunnel
[05:39] <SteveA> and sent mail down that
[05:40] <_thumper_> Hmm, didn't know that many isps blocked smtp
[05:40] <SteveA> well
[05:40] <_thumper_> although it makes sense
[05:41] <SteveA> mostly they don't block it but tunnel it 
[05:41] <SteveA> through their own smtp servers
[05:41] <SteveA> but, many of these are blacklisted
[05:41] <SteveA> by other smtp servers
[05:41] <SteveA> so it's all a bit crap really
[05:41] <SteveA> by "tunnel it" I meant "transparently proxy it"
[05:41] <SteveA> and by "proxy" I mean "murder the original and send it in their own particular way"
[05:42] <ddaa> and for those who don't, their consumer IP ranges are often blacklisted
[05:42] <ddaa> mostly because they are rich in zombie systems, I guess
[05:43] <_thumper_> SteveA, ok, I'll take you up on those postfix config files :)
[05:45] <SteveA> https://devpad.canonical.com/~stevea/postfix/
[05:46] <SteveA> there's also a sasl_passwd and sasl_passwd.db
[05:46] <SteveA> that, unsurprisingly, contain my credentials
[05:47] <_thumper_> ok, thanks
[06:17] <_thumper_> I hate mail, why doesn't it just work?
[06:17] <_thumper_> anyway sent the email from devpad in the end
[06:17] <_thumper_> so hopefully that should propagate appropriately
[06:17] <_thumper_> see y'all tomorrow