=== ddaa [n=ddaa@nor75-18-82-241-238-155.fbx.proxad.net]  has joined #launchpad-meeting
=== _thumper_ getting coffee back in 3 min
=== _thumper_ back early
[12:00] <ddaa> Hello
[12:00] <_thumper_> morning
[12:01] <ddaa> looks like some of the .au tribe is out
[12:01] <_thumper_> yeah
=== mpool [n=mbp@ppp112-44.static.internode.on.net]  has joined #launchpad-meeting
[12:01] <_thumper_> speak of the devil
[12:01] <mpool> hi
[12:01] <mpool> welcome!
[12:01] <ddaa> okay, only lifeless missing can start
[12:01] <ddaa> MEETING STARTS
[12:01] <mpool> lifeless is excused, he worked yesterday and said he might miss this
[12:01] <ddaa> == Agenda ==
[12:02] <ddaa> Next meeting 2006-10-09, 10:00-10:45 UTC.
[12:02] <ddaa> SteveA, _thumper_ and ddaa will be on a sprint in London.
[12:02] <ddaa>  * roll call
[12:02] <ddaa>  * production status
[12:02] <ddaa>  * release finder
[12:02] <ddaa>  * Python import
[12:02] <ddaa>  * strategic plan
[12:02] <ddaa>  * bzr-lp features
[12:02] <ddaa>  * interesting bzr list threads
[12:02] <ddaa>  * advertising
[12:02] <ddaa>  * 1.0 targets
[12:02] <ddaa>  * highlighted bugs
[12:02] <ddaa>  * any other business
[12:02] <ddaa> If you wish to change the time of the meeting or add/remove agenda items, say "bzzzt!".
[12:02] <ddaa> If we are short on time, the "any other business" item will be automatically, dropped. So if you ''want'' to discuss something more, speak up now.
[12:02] <ddaa> I want to go back working on cscvs, so I plan to finish this meeting on time. No digressions today, please.
[12:02] <ddaa> == Roll call ==
[12:02] <ddaa> No excuse was given.
[12:02] <ddaa> mpool said: mpool: lifeless is excused, he worked yesterday and said he might miss this
[12:02] <spiv> I'm here.
[12:02] <mpool> john's arriving early tomorrow so i'd like to keep this short if possible
[12:02] <ddaa> Anyway lifeless' attendance at this meeting is optional
[12:02] <mpool> here
[12:02] <_thumper_> here
[12:02] <jamesh> here
[12:02] <SteveA> hi
[12:03] <ddaa> okay, everybody here
[12:03] <ddaa> everybody happy with agenda
[12:03] <ddaa> roll it!
[12:03] <ddaa> == Prodution status ==
[12:03] <ddaa> Nothing new to report on production.
[12:03] <ddaa> Well, importd rollout when okay, with only a couple of band-aid fixes
[12:04] <ddaa> which mere merged as trivial end of last week
[12:04] <ddaa> == Product release finder ==
[12:04] <ddaa>  * jamesh: report on PRF progress.
[12:04] <SteveA> what was the nature of the band-aid fies?
=== lifeless [n=robertc@ppp245-86.static.internode.on.net]  has joined #launchpad-meeting
[12:05] <jamesh> I've got a branch up for review that fixes the remaining problems that need to be fixed before rollout
[12:05] <ddaa> SteveA: needed to restore some importd file which is actually imported by buildbot, and needed for what we do
[12:05] <jamesh> It is in my "jamesh/launchpad/bug-50569" branch, along with some other ProductSeries cleanups
[12:05] <jamesh> so hopefully we can turn it on after next rollout
[12:06] <ddaa> SteveA: and needed to tweak a method so the new source tree upload/download system does no cause a failure when the botslave data has been cleared out.
[12:07] <ddaa> jamesh: ack good... I'm itching to ask who's going to be responsible for this code once it is landed, but I think it would be off-topic for the meeting, so I'm not asking
[12:07] <ddaa> == Python import ==
[12:07] <ddaa>  * ddaa: status of Python blocker cscvs bug
[12:07] <ddaa>  * jamesh: bzr-0.11 fixage for launchpad and cscvs
[12:07] <jamesh> lifeless was merging this today.
[12:08] <ddaa> I'm hacking on cscvs like the end of the world is coming, so I can actually have the new logic for svn changeset working by the end of the week
[12:08] <jamesh> I am not sure how that is going
[12:08] <lifeless> *is* metging this
[12:09] <jamesh> lifeless: okay.  So barring any test failures we should have new bzr to play with
[12:09] <ddaa> lifeless: thank you for the love
[12:09] <ddaa> action: jamesh fix unexpected test failures ;)
[12:09] <ddaa> of course, there won't be any
[12:10] <ddaa> == strategic plan ==
[12:10] <ddaa>  * mpool owns that agenda item
[12:10] <jamesh> are you saying they would be expected test failures?
[12:10] <mpool> ddaa: thanks, i have comments from everyone, not all are integrated yet
[12:10] <mpool> but it's basically ticked off, you can remove the item
[12:10] <ddaa> mpool: ack
[12:10] <ddaa> jamesh: ya trying to cscvsfuse me
[12:11] <ddaa> == bzr-lp features ==
[12:11] <ddaa>  * mpool: report on bzr-lp features
[12:11] <ddaa> what's hot, what's next, what's cold, what's out without love?
[12:12] <mpool> well let's hear from everyone working on bzr-lp features, *quickly*?
[12:12] <mpool> jamesh? spiv?
[12:13] <SteveA> I'm interested in the latest on the smartserver and supermirror application of it
[12:13] <SteveA> and getting the smartserver running on devpad for launchpad developers to use
[12:13] <ddaa> SteveA: later this meeting
[12:13] <spiv> I'm working on smart server over HTTP -- the basic code in bzr has been written.
[12:13] <SteveA> and whether anything's happening about overlay repositories (sometime later)
[12:14] <jamesh> I merged the .bzr dir stuff into rocketfuel today, so tomorrow "bzr branch https://staging.launchpad.net/products/bzr" should do something sensible
[12:14] <spiv> I'm now looking at writing a WSGI application for it, so it can actually be deployed.
[12:15] <ddaa> moving on
[12:15] <ddaa> == Interesting bzr list threads ==
[12:15] <ddaa> Do you guys have keywords for outstanding bzr threads from last week?
[12:15] <ddaa> I'm hopelessly behind bzr mail again, so pointers would be greatly appreciated
[12:15] <mpool> ddaa, remind me why this topic is in the meeting?
[12:16] <SteveA> so, david would like to be able to keep up with bzr goings-on
[12:17] <SteveA> but has not the time to keep up with the mailing list
[12:17] <ddaa> it is a suggestion from SteveA to use you guys collectively as a replacement for the not-yet-here bzr community guy and help folks like me who need to stay up to date with the bzr ML but cannot get around to.
[12:17] <SteveA> various attendees at this meeting do keep up with the mailing list
[12:17] <SteveA> so, the idea is that david can be given pointers to topics that are pertinent to him that arise
[12:17] <mpool> nice idea, but it doesn't seem to catch a lot of content
[12:17] <ddaa> *nod*
[12:17] <SteveA> does anyone do a bzr traffic kind of thing?
[12:17] <mpool> not at the moment
[12:18] <ddaa> Nope
[12:18] <SteveA> that was james b's job at one time
[12:18] <mpool> it would be nice, but, again, it takes time
[12:18] <mpool> rather than doing it on irc i think we should either
[12:18] <mpool> (A) actually do a traffic summary or
[12:18] <ddaa> We need a trafficker in the bazaar, we!
[12:18] <mpool> (B) just forward interesting threads to ddaa or some internal list
[12:18] <mpool> (B) is cheaper
[12:19] <SteveA> if something is relevant to david, it's probably relevant to launchpad.  so I'd encourage bzr people to point out such threads on the launchpad list
[12:19] <SteveA> or even launchpad-users
[12:19] <SteveA> and get some cross launchpad-bzr interest going
[12:19] <mpool> OK
[12:19] <mpool> i like when you've [steve]  done that on related topics in the past
[12:19] <ddaa> launchpad-users sounds a good idea it first
[12:20] <mpool> ok, depending on whether it's a user or developer question
[12:20] <ddaa> until people start complaining, then we can move it to launchpad@
[12:20] <SteveA> ok, that's an action point for people who read the bzr list
[12:20] <mpool> lp-users seems mainly concerned with "send me cdsss!!"
[12:20] <SteveA> who here reads the bzr list?
=== spiv puts his hand up
[12:20] <mpool> me, lifeless, spiv, maybe jamesh?
[12:20] <spiv> FSVO "read" :)
=== _thumper_ gets it and reads some
[12:20] <SteveA> a current target for the launchpad team is to increase useful traffic on launchpad-users
[12:20] <mpool> ok, so we all know something about what lp devs need to know 
[12:20] <mpool> if you see something, forward it
[12:21] <SteveA> better than forwarding
[12:21] <jamesh> I read it occasionally.  I certainly don't read all messages
[12:21] <mpool> SteveA: or to lp if it's something about internals that might affect lp users
[12:21] <SteveA> send a proper brief mail
[12:21] <SteveA> with a summary of what it is and why it is important to launchpad
[12:21] <SteveA> this doesn't take long
[12:21] <mpool> right, if you do forward at least put on a summary
[12:21] <mpool> OK, great
[12:21] <SteveA> and vastly increases the usefulness of the pointer to readers
[12:21] <mpool> resolved
[12:21] <ddaa> let's see how it goes next week, moving on
[12:21] <mpool> let's leave this item on the agenda (new title) as a reminder to get in the habit
[12:21] <mpool> move on
[12:22] <SteveA> (particularly to people who subscribe to the launchpad-users list who are not here today)
[12:22] <ddaa> == Advertising ==
[12:22] <ddaa>  * spiv: post draft to LP mailing list for comments.
[12:22] <spiv> D'oh.
[12:22] <spiv> I haven't done that.  I just re-read it, though, and I think I'll Just Post It(TM).
[12:22] <spiv> (i.e. to my blog)
[12:23] <ddaa> as you want, but feel free to ask for review
[12:23] <lifeless> I dont read all the messages
[12:23] <lifeless> its a busy list
[12:23] <ddaa> flascoste gave very useful comments to me in the past
[12:23] <lifeless> I certainly read all the threads enough to decide to finish the thread or not
[12:23] <ddaa> moving on
[12:23] <ddaa> == 1.0 targets ==
[12:23] <ddaa> supermirror-smart-server: spiv: still looking on track for october 8th? What did you work on recently, what is still todo?
[12:23] <ddaa> importd-bzr-native: ddaa: progress of Arch removal and dists cleanup. Next: slice out HCT to remove pybaz dependency.
[12:23] <ddaa> bzr-roundtrip-svn: not for 1.0
[12:23] <ddaa>  * mpool: read up/tick off svn roundtripping discussion
[12:24] <ddaa> mpool: since I have no read the ML recently, I have no idea if anything relevent happened recently
[12:25] <ddaa> spiv: in summary, worked on http transport, next wsgi something to integrate into launchpad?
[12:25] <mpool> ddaa, sorry, it hasn't got to the top of my list yet
[12:25] <spiv> ddaa: For anonymous smart serving over HTTP, it looks likely I'll have the code ready or close to, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get it deployed in that timeframe.
[12:25] <spiv> ddaa: Right.
[12:25] <ddaa> spiv: talk with SteveA and/or kiko about getting a delay
[12:26] <lifeless> ddaa: yeah, the http transport needed a large refactor of the code base, more than expected
[12:26] <lifeless> but thats over with
[12:26] <ddaa> nice to hear
[12:27] <ddaa> kiko said something about telling him about spec that will need some extra time to deliver
[12:27] <ddaa> so you should get that straightened out with him, I think, please keep me in CC
=== ddaa needs to be more precise
[12:28] <spiv> ddaa: Ok.
[12:28] <SteveA> and please keep the spec metadata in launchpad up to date
[12:28] <SteveA> as that is what we use in conf calls with mark
[12:28] <ddaa> Okay, I think I got my fuzzy
[12:28] <ddaa> my fuzzy point across
[12:29] <SteveA>   importd-bzr-transition, supermirror-smart-server,   bzr-roundtrip-svn
[12:29] <SteveA> on https://features.launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/
[12:29] <SteveA> david and andrew, please ensure the metadata is up to date
[12:29] <ddaa> == Highlighted bugs ==
[12:29] <ddaa>  * Related to +source
[12:29] <ddaa>    * bug 2649: CVS branch details should not be editable or displayed. (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/2649)
[12:29] <ddaa>    * bug 46240: posting $series/+source yields a confusing warning (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/46240)
[12:29] <ddaa>    * bug 50569: the product series page does not allow entering source or ftp details for projects without SVN or VCS (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/50569)
[12:29] <ddaa>  * bug: 48813: Efficiently mirroring sftp hosted branches with minimal latency (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/48813)
[12:29] <ddaa>  * bug: 58889: Merged and abandoned branch should not appear in main branch listings (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/58889)
[12:29] <ddaa> Bonus bug: sabdfl asked for the ability to link a spec to a branch.
[12:29] <spiv> SteveA: Ok.
[12:29] <ddaa> bug 46240 fixcommitted last week
[12:30] <ddaa> bug 50569 in-progress by jamesh
[12:30] <ddaa> along with a ton a refactoring and cleanups for +source
[12:30] <jamesh> because of the refactoring, bug 2649 should probably wait for my branch to land
[12:30] <lifeless> ddaa: cscvs failure
[12:30] <lifeless> ERROR: testCommitWithAutomaticLogFiller (cscvs.tests.test_bzr.TestBzrWorkingTreeCommit)
[12:31] <lifeless> ERROR: testCommitWithAutomaticLog (cscvs.tests.test_bzr.TestBzrWorkingTreeCommit)
[12:31] <lifeless> jamesh: ^
[12:31] <ddaa> *sigh*
[12:31] <ddaa> context: ^^ that is status of bzr-0.11 landing on rocketfuel
[12:31] <lifeless> thats with vanilla 0.11, bzrtools removed, lp 0.11 compat branc merged and cscvs compat branch merged
[12:32] <jamesh> lifeless: weird.  I'll try with 0.11 final
[12:32] <ddaa> SteveA: I think the sabdfl bonus bug will be a good think to get _thumper_ started on next week
[12:33] <ddaa> gets to touch all the webapp stack, and not really complicated or risky
[12:33] <SteveA> ok
[12:33] <_thumper_> sounds good
[12:34] <ddaa> Quite unusually, we are ahead of time.
[12:34] <mpool> keep it up!
[12:34] <ddaa> == Any other business? ==
[12:34] <ddaa> So, I'll wait for 10 minutes there ;)
[12:35] <lifeless> jamesh: details :  
[12:35] <lifeless> AssertionError: {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1', 'branch-nick': 'bzr_branch'} != {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1'}
[12:35] <lifeless> AssertionError: {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-defaultfiller': '1.1.1.1 1.1 file_name', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1', 'branch-nick': 'bzr_branch'} != {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-defaultfiller': '1.1.1.1 1.1 file_name', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1'}
[12:35] <jamesh> yeah.  I see it
[12:35] <_thumper_> I did hit two problems with utilities/launchpad-database-setup
[12:35] <mpool> spiv: jameinel will be at my house tomorrow
[12:35] <SteveA> so, I asked earlier
[12:35] <spiv> mpool: Cool.  I'd be happy to join you.
[12:35] <ddaa> So, I'm done for the meeting.
[12:35] <ddaa> <insert random rant here about cscvs>
[12:36] <SteveA> about whether anything will happen about overlay repositories or similar thing
[12:36] <spiv> Right.
[12:36] <lifeless> there has been no serious discussion about it on list
[12:36] <SteveA> I'd also like to know about supermirror/smartserver stuff in more detail than "delayed"
[12:36] <SteveA> like, delayed by how much
[12:37] <lifeless> unless its a mark-mandated feature or some such, I'd say its way off. Myself, I'm not convinced its even a feature rather than a trap.
[12:37] <mpool> lifeless: take it you're refering to overlay repos, not the smart server?
[12:37] <lifeless> right
[12:37] <lifeless> :)
[12:37] <mpool> :-)
[12:37] <mpool> phew
[12:38] <ddaa> mpool: thanks for the clarification :)
[12:38] <SteveA> it feels silly to me to be storing and transporting revisions to the server we use many times more than necessary.  it's a problem I think it important to be fixed for other projects that work as launchpad does, assuming there are/will be any
=== ddaa thinks overlay repos sounds like useful
[12:38] <SteveA> the problem can be fixed in many different ways, I'm sure
[12:38] <mpool> SteveA: i think the motivation for it is definitely good
[12:38] <mpool> i think i suggested (or at least thought :-) that you should make a braindump spec
[12:39] <SteveA> well
[12:39] <mpool> that will give it at least some lease of life
[12:39] <SteveA> I can describe the problem
[12:39] <jamesh> lifeless: weird.  I thought I'd done a complete run of the test suite.  I'm uploading the fix now
[12:39] <SteveA> but it appears, from lifeless's comments, that I'm not qualified to propose a solution
[12:39] <mpool> well
[12:39] <mpool> it's a valid identification of a problem
[12:39] <ddaa> actually...
[12:39] <lifeless> this is a wicked problem space
[12:39] <mpool> i don't think we should run into the design of the solution in this meeting :)
[12:39] <mpool> but we can talk about it this week with john
[12:40] <lifeless> we tend to evaluate many proposals before finding a good balance
[12:40] <ddaa> thinking of it, I think it's close to congruent to the smart server
[12:40] <lifeless> having a clear statement of the problem is very useful to guide those evaluations
[12:40] <mpool> ddaa: it's definitely related
[12:40] <SteveA> mpool: a good description of the problem is on the mailing list
[12:40] <mpool> SteveA: so i guess you're mainly concerned at this point that it not just be dropped/ignored?
[12:40] <SteveA> and john did answer the email
[12:40] <SteveA> do you want me to do something else with it?
[12:40] <mpool> SteveA: yes, that's what i'm looking at
[12:40] <ddaa> unless convinced otherwise, I'll believe that SteveA wants a smart server with ACL
[12:40] <mpool> i read it too
[12:41] <mpool> no, i'll paste it into the spec tracker
[12:41] <mpool> ddaa: what does this have to do with acls?
[12:41] <spiv> ddaa: that's one possible solution, but I don't think it's the only one or necessarily the obviously correctly one.
[12:41] <ddaa> I mean, access control
[12:41] <mpool> SteveA:  the thread "Overlay Repositories"?
[12:41] <ddaa> okay, I'm just talking out of my ass
[12:41] <mpool> SteveA: is that an ok outcome for you, for hte moment?
[12:42] <SteveA> more or less I'm concerned with it not being dropped.  I want to start getting people to look at bzr for their VCS system, and issues like this make people feel like something is clumsily designed, even when that's not the case
[12:42] <SteveA> because it takes an insider to see the design trade-offs or the unfinished work
[12:42] <SteveA> I'm happy with that outcome.  thanks
[12:43] <ddaa> Well...
[12:43] <spiv> SteveA: Also, you wanted to discuss launchpad developers testing the smart server on devpad?
[12:43] <SteveA> spiv: thanks.  yes, that seemed like a good way to get some testing out of the system.
[12:44] <spiv> We should get bzr 0.11 installed on devpad.
[12:44] <ddaa> spiv: yeah, gimme smart server, I give 50 dinars!
[12:44] <SteveA> mpool: also, did you ask etienne about packaging bzr-pqm ?
[12:44] <SteveA> or rather, whatever the plugin for pam-submit is called
[12:44] <mpool> sorry, no
[12:45] <jamesh> bzr-pqm is the right name
[12:45] <spiv> (it's possible to get people using it without installing it system-wide, but it'll be unnecessarily complex)
[12:45] <ddaa> Meeting nominally closed. Please go on.
[12:45] <SteveA> thanks ddaa, for a swift meeting
[12:45] <SteveA> spiv: when bzr 0.11 is packaged, we can get it installed on devpad
[12:46] <spiv> There's a package at http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/ -- is that sufficiently good?
[12:46] <SteveA> if it is for dapper, yes
[12:47] <SteveA> do we also need to get launchpad developers to use 0.11 ?
[12:47] <SteveA> if so, "scratchy" should be updated
[12:47] <spiv> The package from there is working on my dapper system.
[12:48] <spiv> Once 0.11 is installed on devpad, I'll be very happy to mail the launchpad list with details of how to test it and what to expect.
[12:48] <SteveA> well
[12:48] <SteveA> we have a way to get launchpad developers to use it
[12:48] <mpool> SteveA: apparently 'scratchy' split into different directories to accomodate edgy
[12:48] <SteveA> that is, we put it in that "scratchy" apt repository
[12:49] <SteveA> I don't want to give launchpad developers a change to their sources.list without good cause
[12:49] <ddaa> SteveA: I'd love if we could get some traction on branch-notification-email too. It's more complicated, but not terribly so, so maybe we could put that on the sprint too?
[12:49] <SteveA> and I think the "scratchy" thing should be kept up to date with what we want launchpad developers to be using
[12:49] <SteveA> ddaa: sure
[12:49] <ddaa> especially since having you handy to point to the right infrastructure bits needed
[12:50] <SteveA> ddaa: we'll see how that goes.  I added it to the agenda
[12:50] <mpool> SteveA: we should probably just make a different repository for lp developers on edgy
[12:50] <lifeless> I thought scratchy was mant to be empty when the current release was in the distro ?
[12:50] <ddaa> SteveA: where's the agenda? Here's what I propose: hiding merged/abandoned branthes by default, branch-spec listing, branch-notification email.
[12:50] <SteveA> mpool: that's fine.  My concern is if we set up a repository, tell launchpad people to use it, and then forget about it
[12:51] <lifeless> mpool: thats what the subdirs in scratchy are
[12:51] <SteveA> it needs to be something that is maintained, so that we're not changing people's config
[12:51] <lifeless> mpool: scratchy-for-edgy, scratchy-for-dapper
[12:51] <SteveA> and so that we don't roll back versions for people
[12:52] <lifeless> anyhow, you should go sleep, as I. early morning tomorrow.
[12:52] <SteveA> ddaa: the draft agenda is in a tomboy note on my laptop.
[12:52] <ddaa> s/branch-spec listing/branch-spec linking/
[12:52] <SteveA> ddaa: bring other things with you to the meeting and we'll set a firm agenda as the first thing in london
[12:53] <mpool> SteveA: would it be too intrusive to get them to update their apt-sources once to the new url?
[12:53] <jamesh> lifeless: I've fixed the cscvs test failure, so the merge should go through fine next time
=== spiv -> dinner
[12:53] <lifeless> jamesh: I'll try again
[12:53] <lifeless> jamesh: tomorrow, theres a merge pending
[12:54] <lifeless> night all
[12:54] <jamesh> thanks.
[12:54] <SteveA> mpool: if we have a new URL, I want it to be one that we can put all .debs that launchpad developers need in.
[12:54] <SteveA> that includes the launchpad-dependencies things, and any other special debs they need
[12:54] <SteveA> as well as bzr tests
[12:55] <lifeless> well, thats really something that should be hosted by the support team
[12:55] <ddaa> jamesh: just to be sure
[12:55] <lifeless> rather than being on the bzr website TBH
[12:55] <lifeless> so I propose it be given as a request to Jeff Bailey
[12:55] <ddaa> you fixed the code not to set the branch-nick, right?
[12:55] <SteveA> it should be hosted by the sysadmin team
[12:55] <SteveA> and maintained by the support team
[12:56] <SteveA> with input from the bzr team about what bzr version goes in there
[12:56] <SteveA> then used by the launchpad team
[12:56] <SteveA> team
[12:56] <mpool> OK
[12:56] <mpool> i'll send a mail
[12:56] <mpool> is there any equivalent of x-debbugs-cc for RT?
[12:57] <SteveA> what does that mean?
[12:58] <mpool> any way to subscribe you to the ticket
[12:59] <SteveA> there is in the web interface
[12:59] <SteveA> I don't know about via email
[12:59] <SteveA> both the support people and the sysadmins use RT
[12:59] <SteveA> so they may know
[12:59] <SteveA> and this is kind of a support question :)
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