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Q-FUNKwhat nick does Dennis Kaarsmaker use on IRC?12:21
Seveascorrect 12:21
tsengthere he is.12:21
SeveasQ-FUNK, it's Kaarsemaker by the way :12:22
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Q-FUNKoh, sorry :)12:23
Q-FUNKSeveas: I just wanted to know what's going on with usplash-theme-ubuntu12:24
Seveasnot much atm12:24
SeveasI'm not on the art team, so can't tell12:24
Q-FUNKBug #6112612:25
UbugtuMalone bug 61126 in usplash-theme-ubuntu "fails to set the alternative to replace the testcard" [Undecided,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6112612:25
Seveasthat's solved in usplash -3112:25
Q-FUNKSeveas: weren't you on Atari before, btw?12:26
=== Q-FUNK renables splash and runs update-grub, then reboots...
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Q-FUNKSeveas: ok, I indeed get something that spalshes.  no boot messages at all, though.12:43
SeveasQ-FUNK, that's expected behaviour12:43
Q-FUNKthen if i remove the quiet boot option, I get messages, but the message box is over where the progress bar is, so they both try to paint over each other12:43
Q-FUNKit wasn't the behavior until usplash 0.3 :)12:43
Seveasthat's not normal -- they should be confined to their own space. COuld you perhaps make a photo of it?12:45
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Q-FUNKi wished, but no digi cam here12:45
Q-FUNKhowever, I got a call from one user today thta he sees the same thing12:46
Q-FUNKit's only now that i realized what he was describing12:46
Q-FUNKhis host runs in 1024x768,  while mine runs in 800x60012:46
Q-FUNKthe message box is off-center and partialy overlaps the progress bar12:47
Seveasthat's my bad - but I won't fix it12:49
Seveasthe theme will change drastically12:49
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Q-FUNKhow so?12:51
Q-FUNKisn't it just  a metter of changing the positioning of the box in the .h file that defines the theme settings?12:52
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jdongbddebian: would you like to help me with acidrip again?12:53
jdongI'll also extend this offer to any free MOTU :D12:53
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sivangsladen: what just happend ? :-)12:53
sivangsladen: suddenly DNS was lost12:53
SeveasQ-FUNK, .c file actually, but yes01:12
SeveasI don't want to make a pointless upload though01:12
Q-FUNKSeveas: why?  the theme is expected to change again soon?01:14
Seveas<Seveas> the theme will change drastically01:14
SeveasI just said that ;)01:14
Seveasthe current theme is a 3-minute rushjob01:14
Q-FUNKSeveas: ambiguous sentence. :)  it could have meant thta fixing the C file would have wreaked havoc :)01:15
Seveasheh, ok01:15
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imbrandonmoins all01:22
jdongimbrandon: can I borrow your upload rights for a sec :)01:27
jdongimbrandon: I've already made a debdiff for your convenience....01:28
UbugtuMalone bug 63582 in acidrip "Crop detection fails" [Undecided,Confirmed] 01:28
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imbrandonjdong, sure i'll take a look, one sec01:30
imbrandonjdong, i have no issue with the upload but i'm gonna do it a tad diffrent01:34
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imbrandoninstead of patching the source directly i'm gonna make it a dpatch ( as thats what the package uses already )01:34
imbrandonjdong, ^^01:35
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jdongimbrandon: sure, that sounds good01:49
jdongimbrandon: I had bddebian do another one-liner patch earlier, and he just patched the source01:49
jdongso I was going by his example :D01:49
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imbrandonhehe jdong no worries, depends on the package, if there is a patch system in place the prefered method is to use it rather than patching the source01:52
jdongimbrandon: one of these days I'll take the time to read up on dpatch....01:52
imbrandonso the one bddebian did earlier might have been correct01:52
imbrandonfor that package01:52
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jdongmeh, I doubt a new upstream release of acidrip is coming anytime soon anyway01:53
imbrandonwell it makes it easy to send upstearm too, and if it will be a while untill the new version all the better as the longer it is the more likely you'll forget the changes and a patch is easy to isolate ;)01:54
imbrandonanyhow no worries, i already did it, just was letting ya know ;)01:54
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cahuezhiya there; looking for re-config the xorg server..01:58
imbrandoncahuez, "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" but #ubuntu is for support01:59
NthDegreeor #kubuntu or #xubuntu ;)02:01
cahuezyou mean this is the right place for troubleshooting..? :)02:01
NthDegreecahuez: this is NOT the right place for troubleshooting02:02
imbrandonno this is the right place for package management of the universe repo02:02
NthDegree#ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu are for troubleshooting cahuez02:02
cahuezi see, let me move ahead there, thanks nth..02:02
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matcould anyone have a look at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scite/+bug/61033 ? if a newer scite is not put in edgy (or a patch added) tabs won't work at all in it...02:15
UbugtuMalone bug 61033 in scite "Tabs don't function properly under edgy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 02:15
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imbrandonok jdong uploaded02:44
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Viper550I have a nice Usplash theme that I think would make good universe material02:48
Viper550(for edgy)02:49
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imbrandonViper550, we are in universe freeze atm , you are more than welcome to file  UFe though02:51
imbrandonurl is in the topic02:51
Viper550I meant for after the freez02:52
ajmitchthe freeze lasts until release02:52
imbrandonahh ok , sure, get it all ready and remind us about decembe then02:52
Viper550uh oh...02:52
ajmitchat which point the distro is properly frozen02:52
ajmitchand only critical things get put into updates02:52
imbrandonheya ajmitch02:53
Viper550if you are wondering, it's this: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=46645 (I ported Dapper's usplash theme to Edgy)02:54
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Toadstoolgood evening03:55
FujitsuHey Toadstool.03:57
Toadstoolhey Fujitsu03:57
bddebianHeya Toadstool, Fujitsu04:00
imbrandonheya bddebian and Toadstool04:00
bddebianFujitsu: Fixed all Universe bugs yet? :)04:00
bddebianHeya imbrandon04:00
Toadstoolhey imbrandon, bddebian04:02
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=== Toadstool 1 - Broadcom 1...
Fujitsubddebian, not quite :P04:08
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ToadstoolI need to squash some bugs to relax or I am going to throw my laptop through the window04:10
bddebianSquashing bugs is relaxing?  Since when? :)04:10
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zakamehi all04:38
FujitsuHi zakame.04:38
bddebianHeya zakame04:40
Toadstoolhey zakame04:40
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minghuawhat is the current procedure for syncing a new version from debian now (no upstream change)?04:42
minghuaI am talking about bug #6354804:43
UbugtuMalone bug 63548 in bandwidthd "Please update to the latest version from Debian Unstable - Edgys -6 version is miserably broken." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6354804:43
bddebianminghua: Unless something has changed you need to request a UVF exception on Launchpad with the appropriate details04:43
minghuabddebian: even there is no upstream changes (only a -6 to -9 Debian version bump)04:44
Fujitsuminghua, just a normal sync request.04:44
bddebianOh, if it's just a release bump no, just a sync request, sorry04:44
minghuaokay, cool, I'll do that then, thanks bddebian and Fujitsu04:45
minghuaslomo subscribed ubuntu-universe-sponsors which completely confused me04:45
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minghuaeww, upstream tarball with autom4te.cache/ directory...04:54
FujitsuUrgh, minghua. Please keep this channel friendly. That's just not good.04:56
bddebianFujitsu: Finish up that azureus yet? ;-P04:56
FujitsuYou little.04:56
bddebianLittle?  heh, I wish, I'm a fat old bastard :'-(04:56
FujitsuWe've got 1.5 months to nominate somebody to do Azureus next cycle...04:57
=== Toadstool runs away
=== Fujitsu pulls Toadstool.
minghuaFujitsu: You are serious?  I apologize if I offended anyone.  But which part is not friendly?04:59
FujitsuBack here!04:59
Fujitsuminghua, that bit about autom4te.cache being in the upstream tarball :P04:59
FujitsuThat's just bad bad bad :P04:59
FujitsuNot serious, no.04:59
minghuaFujitsu: oh I see.  so it's okay for me to report a bug about that autom4te.cache in upstream tarball (it's a cvs snapshot), isn't it?05:00
minghuaI am just confused :-)05:00
minghuayou see, English is not my first language05:01
FujitsuI don't think it should be there, no. That's not ideal.05:01
Fujitsuminghua, aha, that'd do it.05:01
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ToadstoolFujitsu: I run too fast :)05:03
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bddebianHeya Hobbsee05:04
Toadstooleverybody hide ! :)05:04
=== imbrandon is afk
Hobbseehey bddebian05:05
=== Hobbsee waves her long pointy stick of doom around
Toadstoolhi Hobbsee05:05
Hobbseehey Toadstool05:06
imbrandonwhoop the AU crew is wakin up05:06
Hobbseeit's 1pm :P05:07
=== Hobbsee has just been to 4 hours of lectures
=== Hobbsee eyerolls
Hobbseemy exam timetable is truly evil05:08
Hobbseeglad i didnt apply for sponsorship, looking at this05:08
HobbseeMATH136 - Mathematics IB  Wednesday 15 November  13:50  3 hrs05:08
HobbseeELEC166 - Introduction to Electronic Systems Thursday 16 November 13:50 3 hrs05:08
HobbseeCOMP165 - Fundamentals of Computer Science (Advanced) Tuesday 21 November 09:20 3 hrs05:08
HobbseePHYS143 - Physics IB Tuesday 21 November 13:50 3 hrs05:08
superm1hey imbrandon05:09
imbrandonhum speaking of we should hear about that i think05:09
imbrandonheya superm105:09
ToadstoolHobbsee: wow! fun :p05:10
superm1you going to need to open a UVFe for that patch I left for myth?  Or should the normal process of just leaving a debdiff suffice?05:10
Toadstoolsuperm1: bug number?05:11
UbugtuMalone bug 62909 in mythtv "MythTV Frontend 0.20-0.0ubuntu2 not compiled with MMX enabled" [Undecided,Confirmed] 05:11
imbrandonsuperm1, nah the debdiff is fine, i'll upload it here in a few minutes05:11
superm1mkay sweet05:11
Toadstoolsuperm1: UVFe is for new upstream versions, no need to ask for an exception when it's just a tiny patch ;)05:12
superm1okay wasnt too sure05:12
superm1okay well i'm gonna cut out early tonite.  got my flight back early tomorrow morning.  imbrandon, see you tomrorow at the CC meeting right?05:12
imbrandonyup yup superm1 ;)05:13
superm1okay night then all :)05:13
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=== minghua wonders where the bug mail for "Ubuntu Sponsors for universe" goes
ajmitchto the people in the team of sponsors05:20
Hobbseeminghua: to the people on the team05:20
minghuaeverybody?  I see.  thanks05:21
imbrandonyea everyone on the team05:21
imbrandon( as with any LP team afaik )05:21
minghua(and I can't unsubscribe it from a bug because I am not a member)05:21
Hobbseeyou should be able to05:22
Hobbseei thought05:22
minghuaso god bless those with email filters05:22
imbrandonwhat bug ?05:22
minghuaimbrandon: bug #6357805:22
UbugtuMalone bug 63578 in ubiquity "detects two harddisks, but can only choose one harddisk in "manually edit partition table"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6357805:22
minghuaand if anyone can show me how to unsubscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors, I'll appreciate that too05:23
imbrandonubuntu sponsors isnt subscribed to that bug05:23
minghuabug #63548 instead05:24
UbugtuMalone bug 63548 in bandwidthd "Please sync bandwidthd (universe) 2.0.1+cvs20050208-9 from Debian (main)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6354805:24
minghuaimbrandon: sorry05:24
imbrandonno /me looks05:24
minghuaajmitch: and I think motu-science's bug mail goes to the list instead of everyone on the team05:24
imbrandondone: "Ubuntu Sponsors for universe has been unsubscribed from this bug."05:25
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Fujitsuminghua, yeah, I'm not sure how that works... LP is a strange beast.05:30
minghuaindeed.  I never tries to understand LP05:34
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minghuabe back soon05:34
TheMusoHey MOTUs.05:42
FujitsuHi TheMuso.05:45
imbrandonheya TheMuso05:49
TheMusoHey imbrandon.05:49
TheMusoHow goes it?05:49
imbrandongood good, just munchin ;)05:51
imbrandontollin on LP a bit05:51
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imbrandonwb ajmitch05:55
ajmitchI guess DSL went away for a few minutes05:55
zakamewb minghua05:56
minghuahi zakame, haven't seen you for quite a while05:57
minghuahmm, yahoo apparently doesn't like the LP bug mail from myself, and throws them in spam folder frequently06:01
FujitsuYay! NZer is back in -devel!06:16
PlugIf you'd asked we could have thrown in another NZer? :)06:19
Plugnow Fujitsu, aren't you meant to be at TAFE?06:19
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FujitsuPlug, not for 3.5 hours.06:27
PlugRight.  Crazy timezones. :)06:28
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ajmitchFujitsu: NZer in devel? we have some of them?06:45
Fujitsuajmitch, that troll.06:48
ajmitchoh fun06:48
jlduggerdoes the wiki have a log of who deletes or moves pages?06:50
ajmitchwiki emails probably do06:51
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imbrandonajmitch, hum did canonical send out the emails about the dev summit ? ( just makin sure my spam filter dident catch it )07:05
imbrandonor are they late07:05
ajmitchimbrandon: no idea07:06
jlduggercuz someone appears to have moved and or deleted the LaptopTestingTeam page, but I can't find any record of it07:06
=== imbrandon would have figured he would have atleaste got a no if that was the case
ajmitchjldugger: I'll look07:06
ajmitchjldugger: last change I see on it was yours, and that was no move/delete07:07
imbrandonhum it does seem to be gone07:08
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imbrandonajmitch / jldugger : looks like there might be a python / database problem on the wiki atm ( w.r.t. the laptoptestingteam page ) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-October/003320.html07:34
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jlduggerok, well as long as i didnt break it08:27
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Hobbseehey phanatic09:02
phanatichey Hobbsee09:02
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tomvHi. I'm kind of concerned about the ubuntu universe versions of some packages I maintain for Debian. Is there someone in the MOTU team who wants to look at libaqbanking and libchipcard2?09:39
ajmitchwhat problems are there? I see they're a few versions behind in edgy, but we've hit freeze time now - need to get approval to update09:41
tomvajmitch: the problems are a couple of Debian bugs ranging from important to RC, a memory leak, problems with accessing a class of USB chipcard readers and several bugs that concerning iTAN-based online banking.09:47
ajmitchsounds reasonable, can you look at the last wiki page in the topic & file bugs about these? I'd hate to ship your packages with RC bugs09:49
tomvajmitch: The problem is that these bugs, while no RC in the Debian sense (makes packages useless for everyone), make the packages completely dysfunctional for people affected, often with opaque error messages.09:49
ajmitchthat's still serious enough to get them into edgy09:50
ajmitch& we tend to trust the debian maintainer's word on this09:51
tomvajmitch: Sorry, but I do believe that unless someone really wants online banking in edgy and will subscribe to the upstream mailing list, this project is doomed to fail.09:51
tomvajmitch: That's very nice, but I'm not that trustworthy. :)09:51
ajmitch'this project' being?09:51
ajmitchI've seen some of your packaging :)09:51
tomvThe project "having consistently good packages is Ubuntu".09:51
tomvHey, I'm only responsible for the diff. :)09:52
tomv(the interdiff, that is...)09:52
tomvajmitch: Really, I'm not in a too good position to summarize all problems either, because I don't have a lot of bank accounts to transfer money around. :)09:53
jlduggeri wouldn't mind online banking, but i think my bank does09:53
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jlduggergod bless america09:53
ajmitchtrying to track bugs in all the universe packages is always a challenge, true09:53
tomvajmitch: and I'm not envying you for the task, either...09:54
ajmitchtomv: just join us :)09:54
tomvajmitch: OK, so I can try to make the changelog of upstream available in a more ready format, they're pretty good at documenting their fixes.09:55
ajmitchwe need to get that list of bugs that are closed in debian & waiting for us to grab - keybuk did generate them at some point09:56
ajmitchBurgundavia: ping09:56
tomvajmitch: I don't want to make Ubuntu Debian. Whatever that means.09:56
ajmitchlayers & layers of bureaucracy?09:56
tomvajmitch: Every package cared for. :)09:56
Burgundaviaajmitch: pong09:56
ajmitchheh, debian has MIA maintainers as well09:57
Burgundaviaajmitch: those lists are still available09:57
ajmitchBurgundavia: is there some way you can redirect those MoM reports by keybuk?09:57
Burgundaviayes, manually09:57
ajmitchso we have to pester keybuk to get him to change the address?09:57
tomvajmitch: OK, I'll be off filing ubuntu bugs. :)09:57
ajmitchI'd rather not write my own code to grab the BTS09:57
ajmitchtomv: thanks very much :)09:58
Burgundaviaajmitch: no, I can redirect large numbers in a single batch09:58
ajmitchBurgundavia: maybe to universe-bugs or similar09:59
ajmitchI know this was discussed briefly09:59
ajmitchah, keybuk is alive as well09:59
Burgundaviayes, it was discussed recently09:59
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tomvajmitch: sorry, you thanked me too early. It's not going to happen after all. Blame it all on launchpad. I thought, well, if you can do it via mail, but they want to make me complete my launchpad profile before that...10:13
ajmitchsurely not?10:15
tomvno. I'll just read a book instead. Hopefully, it's not good, so I can complain.10:17
=== ajmitch sighs
=== jldugger attempts to imagine what bug reports would look like if anonymous emails were accepted
jlduggerC14LIS! BUY NOW10:28
=== tseng sighs.
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berentcan anyone tell me how to upgrade to dapper - i have currently 2.6.1210:42
berentanyone here10:43
Gloubiboulgaberent, please ask on #ubuntu10:43
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ajmitchBurgundavia: so where in the world are you this week? :)11:05
ajmitchhi azeem11:05
Burgundaviaajmitch: at home11:05
ajmitchBurgundavia: great, how long were you out on the road?11:06
Burgundaviaa week11:06
Burgundaviaoff to boston at the end of this week11:06
=== ajmitch is somewhat envious
ajmitchof the boston trip, not the rest11:07
ajmitchhey imbrandon11:08
ajmitchup early?11:09
imbrandonyea a bit11:09
imbrandonwent to sleep early ;)11:09
ajmitchI was worried you were about to reply 'up late' instead11:09
imbrandonnah , not /this/ time11:09
=== ajmitch has no plans to stay up till 2AM doing ubuntu again tonight
imbrandonheya gnome deity , i have a quick question ( probably should be support but its slow in here shhhh ) can i make the clock in the gnome pannel show me times for other timezones when i hove the mouse over it ( i got used to this in KDE )11:11
ajmitchI doubt it11:11
ajmitchthat would be a 'feature'11:11
StevenKimbrandon: Shhh, if you talk about the clock applet, they'll remove it11:12
imbrandonok so umm how do you all easily check times in other zones ?11:12
imbrandonor do you hehe11:13
imbrandon"you all" as in normal gnome users11:13
ajmitchI always convert in my head :)11:13
shawarmaimbrandon: like so: TZ=Europe/London date11:13
imbrandonheh ok, figures ;)11:13
=== imbrandon is glad a certain thread has all but died on -devel
StevenKimbrandon: Hah, try debian-devel sometime11:15
imbrandonlol no thanks11:15
imbrandonthats one of the main reasons i will probably never be a DD11:16
ajmitchyou don't have to read that11:17
=== Hobbsee giggles at the backscroll
ajmitchoh, Hobbsee is here11:17
Hobbseeajmitch: indeed11:17
imbrandonheh, heya Hobbsee11:17
Hobbseegood reason not to use gnome11:17
Hobbseethen again, if i talk about gnome, will they remove it too?11:17
imbrandonHobbsee, yea but since horatio died and my laptop was already loaded with gnome i dident want to reinstall11:18
ajmitchthey'll just laugh at you11:18
Hobbseeajmitch: they seem to do that anyway, so...11:18
ajmitchimbrandon: why would you reinstall?11:18
imbrandonwell install -kubuntu-desktop and remove gnome11:18
imbrandonetc etc etc11:18
imbrandonnot /really/ "reinstall" link windows11:18
imbrandongives me a nice view of the "other side" so when i get kde back i'll love it that much more ;)11:19
imbrandonsides gnome runs on my lappy faster ;)11:19
imbrandonshhhh i dident say that11:19
ajmitchno surprise11:20
imbrandonit lacks a few minor things i'm used to , but nothing major ( little stuff like the clock etc )11:20
imbrandonand i'm sure most of it is i just dont have it 100% configured the way i would like yet11:21
imbrandoni do have it KDEized alot ( as in one pannel at the bottom, the application menus replaced with the main menu , pannel applet placings etc )11:22
ajmitchwe chased her away again11:22
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imbrandoni guess not for long11:27
minghuaimbrandon: since you tweak your KDE a lot, GNOME probably doesn't suit you after all11:28
minghuaimbrandon: as for the clock thing, I am not aware there's anyway to do that11:28
=== Hobbsee dies of shock
imbrandonminghua, very true, there isnt alot of the "options" i'm used to , but for simplisity, its ok i guess11:29
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minghuaimbrandon: but if you want to poke hidden features of gnome stuff, install gconf-editor and look at those cryptic values11:29
ajmitchhi Yagisan11:29
YagisanG'day ajmitch11:29
imbrandonhehe minghua maybe someday , that wont be this morning though , /me whinces at the thought of the windows registry ( gconf editor )11:30
minghuahey, gconf-editor still has fewever things to click than KDE preference dialog :-P11:31
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imbrandonyea but "simple" in some cases is "simply not what i need it to do"11:32
minghuatrue, gnome is definitely not for everybody11:32
imbrandonbut alas it is a good DE just not good for _me_ ;)11:32
ajmitchso many bugs to try & keep up with...11:32
minghuafortunately I like it very much11:32
HobbseeCOOL!  I have a fully working edgy again!11:33
ajmitchhm, *crap*11:33
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imbrandonajmitch, ?11:33
ajmitchseems that my power supply fan is not spinning11:33
imbrandonHobbsee, yay \o/11:33
NthDegreekaboomy in not long then ajmitch11:34
imbrandonajmitch, ouch , get it fixed asap so you dont end up like me heh11:34
ajmitchit's a fairly new power supply, too11:34
imbrandonnot good11:34
NthDegreeyeah we all like Hobbsee don''t we ;)11:34
ajmitchHobbsee: you broke kde again?11:34
Hobbseeajmitch: X broke from -8-generic onwards.  was the toshiba hotkeys11:35
TheMusoHobbsee: How did that cause problems?11:35
imbrandonspeaking of X is aiglx built into the edgy X ? as in i just need to load compix/beryl and go ?11:35
imbrandonajmitch, ^^11:35
ajmitchimbrandon: yes, what drivers do you use?11:36
imbrandonthis lappy has an ati card11:36
ajmitchhm, inside of my case is fairly warm11:36
imbrandonajmitch, ouch , icepacks11:36
HobbseeTheMuso: kernel oops11:36
ajmitchimbrandon: it's a large case, but I might shut down in a bit :)11:37
imbrandonajmitch, 0000:00:10.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Radeon Mobility M7 LW [Radeon Mobility 7500] 11:37
ajmitchimbrandon: right, so uses the r200/r300 drivers?11:37
imbrandonand the opensource ati driver afaik11:37
imbrandonwhat ever edgy defaulted to11:37
HobbseeTheMuso: yep11:38
imbrandonis there a way to check ?11:38
HobbseeTheMuso: that's how it got diagnosed :P11:38
imbrandonerr "whats the way to check"11:38
TheMusoHobbsee: I guess you reported it?11:38
HobbseeTheMuso: yeah, and others11:38
ajmitchI wonder if my box will come back up easily...11:39
HobbseeTheMuso: the guy saw my syslog, found the cause, then found that others had reported the same bug.  with the solution.11:39
imbrandonajmitch, well only one way to find out, heh make sure its upto date and pray ;)11:39
ajmitchimbrandon: not rebooted for > 2 months11:39
ajmitchso before the UUID changes, upstart, etc11:40
imbrandonwow , on a desktop11:40
imbrandonbig changes11:40
ajmitch& this is LVM+RAID11:40
imbrandonoh nice, yea i'll pray too ;)11:40
imbrandon( with you ) heh11:40
ajmitchgoing down...11:41
imbrandoncan-of-air dident help the psu fan ?>11:41
imbrandonajmitch, good luck11:41
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ajmitchit could be the knob on front to control fan speed11:44
ajmitchI'll plug it directly onto the motherboard to see11:44
ajmitchirssi is on another box, of course :)11:44
TheMusoStevenK: You running the latest at-spi etc?11:44
imbrandonright , i figured as much ;)11:44
imbrandonbrb gonna grab some soda11:45
ajmitchthis gives me a chance to try out xen on amd64, of course :)11:46
imbrandonhow do i check what driver X is using , my xorg.conf says "ati" so i'm guessing thats not the r200/2300 you spoke of11:46
imbrandonajmitch, very true11:46
minghuaam I the only one find it annoying that dapper-backports package update mails are sent to dapper-changes list?11:46
imbrandonminghua, where else would they be sent , i mean it is a dapper-update11:46
imbrandonerr dapper-change11:47
minghuaimbrandon: I am not sure about the official policy, but I won't put dapper-backports in my sources.list, and I don't want to see dapper-backports mails11:47
minghuaif there is another list for dapper-updates, maybe I should subscribe to that instead11:48
imbrandonnope all one list afaik11:48
minghuaoh, and I would suggest them sent to ubuntu-backports instead11:48
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imbrandonthey are sent to ubuntu-backports ( along with the bug info ) but its a dapper change also so its sent there as well iirc11:49
minghuawell, it look like it's just a pet peeve of mine, so never mind11:49
imbrandoni wouldent imagine it would be hard to filter them from the X- headers11:50
imbrandonerr nvm11:50
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StevenKTheMuso: Well, it was both me and Bart.11:51
minghuaimbrandon: no, probably not X- headers, but it's always parseable by Distribution: in the body11:52
StevenKTheMuso: I forcibly downgraded Bart's machine to 1.7.11, I'll see if it helps.11:52
imbrandonminghua, true11:52
minghuahmm, mailman sends out a privacy alert when you try to subscribe to a list that you are already subscribed, interesting12:00
=== ajmitch wonders why the system freezes during bootup - a bit of a worry
ajmitchyet it's going fine with a live cd12:02
StevenKajmitch: Stupid question. NZ phone numbers are 2 numbers for the area code and 7 numbers?12:02
ajmitchStevenK: yes, except for mobile numbers12:03
minghuagood for NZers, small country can afford 2 digit area code12:05
StevenKAustralia is huge and has 2 digits.12:06
tsengexcept that no one lives there12:08
=== StevenK kicks TheMuso
tsengyou missed12:09
=== StevenK unkicks TheMuso and belts tseng
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minghuayou define small and big countries by population instead of area when talking about phone numbers :-)12:12
ajmitchok, with the right (non-xen) kernel I'm back with a desktop12:12
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TheMusoStevenK: The latest versions for me both on an install and live CD seem to be fine.12:33
TheMusoI am not getting any bubbles showing up reporting a crash at least.12:33
=== TheMuso goes to check /var/crash
TheMusoNope, nothing in there.12:34
StevenKTheMuso: I managed to kill it on my laptop. Try and bring up the Desktop Background Preferences, that killed it everytime on Bart's machine.12:35
StevenKTheMuso: My main problem is I can't strace or gdb at-spi-registryd.12:36
TheMusoYeah I know. I tried that myself as well.12:38
StevenKI haven't read the code, but I can't see why it would. Unless it has fucked signal handlers or something.12:39
TheMusoSeems fine here.12:41
TheMusoThis is on an HD install.12:41
TheMusoWith latest updates, at least from an .au mirror.12:42
StevenKThis is an upgrade from Dapper, done today.12:42
TheMusoOk, couldbe an upgrade regression then.12:42
TheMusoI need to do a Linux install on my laptop, might do that later tonight and upgrade to see for myself.12:43
StevenKTheMuso: Kay.12:43
StevenKTheMuso: I just get lost with all this accessibility stuff. It doesn't help that Bart keeps asking me for help with it.12:43
StevenKTheMuso: Oh yes, Bart and I solved the orca problem.12:45
TheMusoWhat was it?12:45
StevenKTheMuso: We're not sure to be honest. :-)12:45
StevenKTheMuso: We killed the Gnome and Orca configs and it's fine.12:45
TheMusoWhy does that not surprise me? :)12:46
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=== StevenK tries to decide who TheMuso is digging at. :-)
minghuaBart, obviously :-)12:47
TheMusoStevenK: Nobody.12:50
StevenKTheMuso: Heh, okay12:50
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ajmitchdapper live cds are great01:07
ajmitchthey can be used to check all kinds of things, like using it as a mirror to check if a fan is going01:07
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TheMusoCan anybody remember the URL of that site that allowed one to generate a vmware player config?01:41
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imbrandonsiretart, ping01:47
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siretartimbrandon: po01:57
imbrandonsiretart, xine-lib is patched a little funny, wanted to ping you about the patch attached to bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xine-lib/+bug/6313001:59
UbugtuMalone bug 63130 in xine-lib "Amarok does not play *.shn files" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 01:59
imbrandonseems ok to me but thought you might like to eyeball it before i added it to the ubuntuX.diff01:59
imbrandon( it was originaly reported as a amarok bug but really xine-lib )02:00
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siretartimbrandon: feel free to branch from my packaging branch02:03
siretartI'll look at it02:03
imbrandonok siretart thanks02:03
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bddebianHeya gang02:38
bddebianHi Fujitsu02:39
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zulanyone know whats going on with sponsorship stuff02:50
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imbrandonzul, afaik from what i've heard they are just late getting the emails out03:02
zulah ok03:02
imbrandonstill might not hurt to poke them for "official" word03:02
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imbrandonzul, check you email ( if you havent already ;P )04:24
zulimbrandon: i know happy happy joy joy04:25
imbrandonkinda funny she dident bcc: them04:25
gnomefreakare there any plans to upgrade enlightenment to E17 for edgy+1 or is it something that needs to be more stable?04:28
gnomefreakcongrats zul and imbrandon04:29
TheMusoCongrats guys.04:29
imbrandonthanks ;)04:29
TheMusoWelcome. You'll have fun.04:30
TheMusoTis an awesome experience.04:30
imbrandongnomefreak, probably as there are alot of people seeming to use svn snapshots although a release would be nice04:30
imbrandonTheMuso, you not makin this one ?04:30
gnomefreakimbrandon: i dont remember a release in site (i think thats normal for them though)04:31
TheMusoVery likely not. Haven't received an email yet04:31
TheMusoSince I went to the last one as well. :)04:31
TheMusoAh well.04:31
imbrandontrue , from what i've been told the dont sponsor 2 times in a row afaik04:31
imbrandononly like ever other time or somethign04:31
TheMusoThats what I've heard as well04:31
imbrandoni dunno for sure though04:32
gnomefreakHawkwin^d  has a great repo for it and its updated alot i was trying to get into source-o-matic04:32
=== StevenK is still pondering Debconf 7
TheMusoWorth a shot anyway04:32
imbrandonTheMuso, definately04:32
imbrandongnomefreak, yea i'm aware, honestly i am in hopes Hawkwind will do the MOTU thing and keep it upto date in edgy+1 universe04:32
TheMusoAnd I'm not very geographically close.04:33
imbrandonahh very true04:33
TheMusoAs long as there is a good way people outside the conference can participate, I'm happy.04:33
TheMusoAlthough I still don't like how the the schedules will be done from day to day.04:33
gnomefreakimbrandon: i think that sounds like a great idea if he will accept. he still hasnt got a edgy repo yet and its not installible on edgy yet04:33
imbrandoni'll definately try to keep on peoples minds i rember the hardships from last time04:33
TheMusoWell, perhaps next time, Hobbsee can go for sponsorship as well. I reckon she'd get it.04:35
HobbseeTheMuso: yeah, maybe.04:36
StevenKTheMuso: There might be other factors.04:36
TheMusoStevenK: I am well aware of that04:36
=== StevenK is still trying to decide between Debconf 7 and a UDS
imbrandonStevenK, UDS ;)04:37
StevenKI suspect my wife will incredibly dislike the answer.04:37
TheMusoAnyway, I really must get to bed.04:37
imbrandonStevenK, you cringe when we ask you about DD stuff ;)04:37
imbrandonso UDS ;)04:37
imbrandonTheMuso, gnight bro04:37
StevenKTheMuso: Night04:37
TheMusoNight guys.04:37
Hobbseenight TheMuso04:39
HobbseeStevenK: UDS :P04:39
StevenKimbrandon: The problem is that Debconf 7 is in Edinburg. Where my wife *really* wants to visit, since her fathers family hail from around there.04:39
StevenKimbrandon: I feel, like Keybuk does, that I'm not a part of the DD community any more, which is sad. This makes me reconsider Debconf 704:41
Riddellbut but... Edinburgh!04:42
StevenKThe next UDS needs to happen in July 2007 :-P04:43
StevenKIn Edinburgh04:43
Riddelltoo right, my flat has about 6 times the bandwidth of certain other ubuntu conferences04:45
imbrandoni am thinking googleplex will have plenty o bandwidth though04:46
Riddellplus that would mean having 100% of the interesting free software community conferences in Britain04:46
imbrandonmaybe by that time i will have moved to the EU also ;)04:46
=== Hawkwind Looks around and ponders
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phanaticgood afternoon05:06
bddebianHeya phanatic05:08
phanaticheya bddebian05:08
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Hawkwindgnomefreak: You around ?05:40
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gnomefreakyeah kind of05:43
Hawkwindgnomefreak: Edgy E17 packages will be built tomorrow, and the SoS Edgy repo will go into effect no later than this weekend05:44
gnomefreakHawkwind: ok cool05:44
HawkwindNo problem.  Just been really busy with a lot of things so the Edgy thing has been kind of pushed off05:45
HawkwindBut I know it's in high demand right now as we are nearing the release05:45
gnomefreaki understand05:45
gnomefreakHawkwind: this is just a thought atm that was thrown around but how would you feel about maintaining edgy+1 packages in universe for e17?05:46
HawkwindHeh.  I saw that convo earlier.  It's something I'm thinking about.  Just building packages for Mandriva for my repo and Ubuntu take a lot of time.  But definitely something I enjoy doing.05:47
HawkwindI feel I've still got some learning to do when it comes to building debs and doing them good enough to get approved for REVU.  I'm curious if the E17 debs would pass or not currently05:48
=== gnomefreak thinks they are fine but you would hav eto have someone more into packaging for that answer
HawkwindOnly running Ubuntu for 3 months now I'm still relatively new in some areas, packaging being one I feel05:49
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sivangre folks06:53
sivangwill it be possible to include a NEW package in unverse at that time given a good enough reason for exception is given?06:54
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LaserJocksivang: maybe06:56
sivangLaserJock: who are the folks who are responsible for approve such?06:56
LaserJocksivang: I'm not sure what the policy is for a FF exception06:56
LaserJockslomo, siretart, and dholbach06:56
sivangLaserJock: ah cool06:57
LaserJocksivang: what I would do is right an email to ubuntu-motu06:57
LaserJockexplaining your case, so people can comment, etc.06:57
sivangLaserJock: okay, cool06:57
sivangbut first to produce the package06:58
sivangLaserJock: how are you're little molecules doing btw?06:58
LaserJockI'm hitting them all right ;-)06:59
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beligumHi all, I'm looking for someone who wants to take over the ScreenKast packaging...07:02
LaserJockdholbach: can I get a second of your time before the meeting starts?07:04
dholbachLaserJock: you might try07:04
LaserJockdholbach: I was wondering what your reasoning behind getting goffice from Debian experimental was07:05
LaserJockdholbach: does gnumeric really require that version?07:05
dholbachLaserJock: when? where?07:05
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LaserJockedgy's gnumeric depends on libgoffice-0-307:05
LaserJockbut that is a Debian experimental package07:06
LaserJockthat i've been told is quite unstable07:06
dholbachit needs it07:06
dholbachthat's why07:06
dholbach1.7.0 is the gnumeric "unstable" branch, it needs that version of goffice07:06
dholbachand the only change in goffice was afaik a change in arguments of a function07:06
dholbachwhich brought a soname change07:06
dholbachso there are no huge differences07:07
dholbachit's been a while since we did that07:07
LaserJockheh, except I'm trying to get a package in that FTBFS with that version of goffice07:07
LaserJockoh well, edgy+1 I think ;-)07:07
dholbachMon,  3 Jul 200607:07
dholbachI'm sure it's a change in arguments07:08
LaserJockI just wondered if gnumeric's dependency was strict on that version of goffice07:08
dholbachwhere is the build log?07:08
LaserJockI don't have one07:08
LaserJockwe were trying to get a package from Debian in last minute07:08
dholbachhow do you know it ftbfs?07:08
LaserJockanyway, it's a little late07:08
LaserJockbecause the author and Debian maintainer told me so07:08
dholbachit'd be nice to see the last messages from the ftbfs07:09
LaserJockit could be a small thing07:09
dholbachi'm sure there's not much required to fix it again07:09
LaserJockbut it's past Universe Freeze07:09
LaserJockso I'll probably defer it to Edgy+107:09
LaserJockI just wish I  found out sooner07:09
LaserJockas I would have tried to fix it07:09
LaserJockdholbach: ok, I'll leave you alone now07:10
dholbachLaserJock: if we can fix it with a UVF we should do it07:10
dholbachLaserJock: but I'm not keeping you here - have a nice day07:10
LaserJockdholbach: it would be a NEW package07:11
dholbachget it reviewed, file a uvf for it07:11
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LaserJockmy goodness08:01
LaserJocka 14MB diff to a 7MB .orig.tar.gz08:01
slomowhich package is this? :)08:01
superm1lol what to?08:01
slomothat's even worse than ikvm with almost 1:1 diff.gz and orig.tar.gz08:02
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LaserJockand debdiff chokes08:04
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lfittl_wtf, why is ChanServ giving me channel operator status? (just playing around innocently with irssi)08:05
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LaserJockis there a good place to get older debian source packages?08:12
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LaserJockcrimsun: is that an official  debian project?08:19
crimsunLaserJock: not afaik, but I've been away for some time08:20
LaserJockI never really know with debian.org vs debian.net08:20
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LaserJockmy goodness08:29
LaserJockthe fix for maxima08:30
LaserJockis 1 missing "else" in gcl08:30
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lfittlhmm, do MOTUs automatically have op rights in this channel? (just wondering)08:32
LaserJocknot sure08:33
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crimsunit's open, anyone can get ops.08:33
crimsunbrandon stated as much a couple months ago08:34
lfittlah, ok08:34
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sharmsanyone know anything about the libogre package?08:54
LaserJockI hate gcl08:57
superm1thanks LaserJock :)08:57
LaserJocknp dude, congrats08:58
superm1could you by chance put me in contact with the people holding the multimedia conference nov 5-10?08:59
LaserJockstupid thing bails out on debuild08:59
superm1i'd for sure like to look more into it08:59
LaserJockit's not a multimedia conference08:59
LaserJockits the Ubuntu Developer Summit08:59
LaserJockat Google Headquarters08:59
crimsunsuperm1: e-mail jono bacon (jono@ubuntu.com)09:00
superm1Ok.  will do09:00
superm1thanks again. I'm gonna get going then09:01
crimsunsuperm1: please mention that you're involved w/ a/v09:01
LaserJockoh, I wonder if this is a bashism09:01
LaserJockcrimsun:  rm -f ${debian/control.rm%.rm}09:02
LaserJockthat's not a bashism is it? I didn't think it was09:02
geserI'm looking at the packages with unmet deps and need now an advise how to resolve the gnustep packages09:09
gesera simple rebuild won't fix it09:09
geseras far as I tracked it back two packages from debian are needed to be synced (new upstream versions)09:10
geserthen can the induvial packages be synced to get rid of this unmet dep09:11
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gesershould sync request + uvf exceptions be filed for these packages?09:12
LaserJockare they new upstream versions?09:13
lfittlsharms: what do you need to know about ogre?09:14
sharmslfittl: oh the current package just seems like a huge mess and is out of date, I think we just sync it straight from debian.  I would like to make a more up to date one, but don't even know the first place to start09:14
lfittlsharms: I already have a almost finished one here, just need to clean some stuff up and test it ;)09:15
lfittlbut as there are some issues that I want to resolve (samples can't be shipped because of media file license issues), it probably won't make it into edgy09:15
sharmslfittl: yeah I was thinking edgy + 109:16
sharmslfittl: I looked at it one day but it was a little to big for me to handle yet09:16
lfittlsharms: I see, problem is that I already did most work on it, so there is little to do, sry for that09:17
sharmslfittl: I take that as a gift for sure :)  Do you have a repository up?09:18
sharmsor svn09:18
lfittlsharms: not yet, will put one up this weekend if you are interested09:19
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sharmslfittl: sharms@nospam__ubuntu.com09:19
sharmslfittl: and that would be great if you could09:20
lfittlsharms: still, the package is not yet in a shape that is working (I just cleaned up the rules file and so on) so I will mail you the next days as soon as it is working ;)09:21
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sharmslfittl: yeah and if you cant I will give it a shot too09:22
lfittlsharms: sure :)09:22
geserLaserJock: yes, gnustep-make 1.13.0-1 (ubuntu:  1.12.0-2) is needed for gnustep-base 1.13.0-3 (ubuntu: 1.11.2-3) which is needed for gnustep-gui 0.11.0-2 (ubuntu: 0.10.2-1) which is needed for gnustep-back 0.11.0-2 which currently FTBFS09:23
LaserJocksounds good, make it so ;-)09:24
gesergnustep-back produced gnustep-back0.10 which is now missing09:24
geserhow are the chances to get the exceptions for these packages approved?09:25
LaserJocknot sure09:25
LaserJockyou don't know unless you try it ;-)09:25
gesercurrently some gnustep-packages can't get installed09:25
LaserJockjoejaxx: congrats09:26
joejaxxLaserJock: thanks09:27
joejaxxLaserJock: thank you for your support also09:27
lfittldholbach: ping09:27
crimsunimbrandon: ping09:32
dholbachlfittl: pong09:32
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LaserJockI've not seen this ahod person around09:36
slomome neither09:36
slomobut someone caring about ifolder would be nice ;)09:36
ajmitchsurely not09:40
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ajmitchisn't it meant to be this package that everyone hates & noone tries to get in?09:44
slomowell, that guy is an ex-novell employee and libflaim upstream or something09:45
slomoi would assume that he could be the right person to care about this stuff09:45
ajmitchoh that's a bit more use09:45
sharmslast I read I thought ifolder was basically abandonded by novell?09:45
sharmsatleast current development09:46
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slomono idea... would be bad, at least the idea was nice09:46
geserdholbach: how are the chances to get UVF exceptions for gnustep-{make,base,gui}? they are needed to get the gnustep libs in sync to be able to resolve the unmet deps of several gnustep apps09:46
dholbachgeser: file the bugs with the info on it and we'll have a look at it09:47
dholbachI can't judge it just by the package name - but making stuff installable again is cool09:47
geserok, will do09:47
dholbachthanks a lot09:48
ajmitchof course sabdfl asked about how good we are at following up with REVU...09:48
=== ajmitch sighs
dholbachI hope we find some good ideas to get things rolling09:49
ajmitchideas are fine, but we need more people reviewing09:49
ajmitchthe *first* upload I see from ahod on revu for libflaim is about 1 or 2 days ago09:50
crimsunhow large is the core dedicated MOTU group, anyway? It always seems to be a resource issue for REVU.09:51
LaserJockI wanted to tell him that if he hired some more MOTUs and bought us a pbuilder farm we'd get it done faster ;-)09:51
ajmitchmaybe 5-10 people if we're lucky09:51
ajmitchand of those 5-10 people, I'd say < 5 regularly review stuff09:52
crimsunWe simply can't scale; all the MOTU who are paid Canonical employees are tied up with other things09:52
dholbachI should review some more :-/09:52
ajmitchand that will continue09:52
ajmitchdholbach: you shouldn't have to09:52
dholbachI'd like to09:52
=== ajmitch most likely won't be at UDS, so won't be there to discuss it with the ubuntu superstars & raging MOTU-holics :)
slomodholbach: we should re-invent the revu days... and make them more often09:53
dholbachI very much liked the telepathy experiment09:53
dholbachwe had people committing their packaging and improved it together09:53
dholbachit was real quick and brought good results09:54
dholbach(packaging in bzr on launchpad)09:54
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bddebianWhat MOTU's are paid canonical employees? :)09:57
crimsunoliver and daniel09:57
LaserJockperhaps building on the MOTU teams more09:57
ajmitchLaserJock: we still need more active & competent MOTUs09:58
hubdoesn't daniel also package gnome with seb128?09:58
bddebianYeah, so I had better quit now09:58
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=== bddebian pats ajmitch on the back.. *there there*
sharmshow about another motu-school?10:01
bddebianLaserJock: Yeah, why not give a class on How to be a Raging MOTU-Aholic? ;-P10:02
LaserJocksubtitle: "How to kill yourself and burn out in 12 easy steps"10:02
hubmotu for dummies10:03
hub"sorry your application failed"10:03
LaserJockwe have really 2 problems that we need to attack10:03
LaserJock1) we need more people10:03
LaserJock2) we need more quality people10:03
bddebian3) We need leadership10:03
ajmitchbddebian: you can solve 3)10:04
crimsunthen get sabdfl to employ barry10:04
bddebianajmitch: Howso?10:04
ajmitchbddebian: step up & do it10:04
ajmitchsame goes for anyone10:04
LaserJockwhat we might want to think about is using the Teams more for leadership10:04
LaserJockit's a bit overwhelming to try to lead MOTU as a whole10:04
bddebianajmitch: 1) I don't believe I have the skillz.  2) I'm a little screwed for time ATM.  Possibly after November10:04
bddebiancrimsun: Haha, core-dev wouldn't even have me, you think Canonical would? :-)10:05
LaserJockI don't know, maybe jono would have some ideas10:05
LaserJockhe's supposed to be the community guru ;-)10:05
crimsunI'm devoting essentially all my free time to ubuntu, but this pace simply is not sustainable10:06
LaserJockmine is neither10:06
LaserJockI'm pretty close to taking an extended Ubuntu holiday10:06
bddebianI was too until work picked up :-(10:06
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bddebianAnd I don't feel like I even make a freakin' dent10:07
LaserJockwe simply can't put all of MOTU on 5-10 people10:07
robitaillethen you need to attract new fresh blood :)10:07
LaserJockrobitaille: thanks for the insight ;-)10:08
bddebianI had two contact me for "sponsorship" but seem to have lost them.. :-(10:08
crimsunfresh blood is only part of the issue. We need people can /pour time/ into motu.10:08
bddebianSometimes it's hard to give direction when feeling chaotic yourself10:08
crimsunwho can , even10:08
ajmitchI swore that I wasn't going to be doing ubuntu until 2AM last night10:08
LaserJockor at least a lot that can give a little ;-)10:08
ajmitchbut I ended up doing it anyway10:08
robitailleI'm pointing a finger at myself here....but lack of time keep getting into the way of expanding my ubuntu partipation in things like MOTU10:08
LaserJockI think the big thing is10:09
=== ajmitch is *meant* to be working only part-time & devoting the rest of the time to ubuntu
ajmitchbut work needs me for more10:09
LaserJockright now it seems to be a truly active and good MOTU takes virtually a full time commitment10:09
LaserJockthat's not a sustainable volunteer model,  IMO10:10
ajmitchto really get into it, it does10:10
ajmitchmostly because there's little way that someone can just spend an hour or two a week10:10
crimsun(to point we anticipated this back in hoary and even mused about paying people to do maintenance)10:10
=== bddebian raises his hand! ;-P
LaserJockso I think we might have to put our thinking caps on10:11
LaserJockand look at ways we can lower the required time commitments while still keeping good MOTUs10:11
crimsunlowered time commitments isn't going to happen imo10:11
bddebianAye, I was just going to say that10:12
LaserJockwhy not?10:12
LaserJockright now we just burn people up and the go away10:12
bddebianWell the NEW crap to maintaining existing crap grows exponentially to my point of view10:12
LaserJockone thing I've found, is that if you go away for even a couple weeks10:12
LaserJockit takes quite a bit to get back in the game10:13
bddebianThe more stuff we review means the more stuff to maintain the next "go-round"10:13
bddebianLaserJock: Agreed, that's where I think we need leadership / direction to set "priority"10:13
LaserJockI really wish we could focus less on NEW packages10:13
lophytewhy not split the MOTU up into teams?10:13
lophytelike subteams.. have one that only works on new packages10:13
bddebianBased on what?  There is some of that now10:13
LaserJockit is, sorta10:14
LaserJockI don't think the teams are used effectively though10:14
crimsunthe problem is that you need a team of experienced MOTU to handle new candidate packages10:14
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LaserJockyes, I think it is a mistake to push MOTU hopefuls at REVU and new packages10:15
crimsunthe opportunity cost of shifting existing MOTU to that solely is quite high10:15
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slomoLaserJock: completely agreed10:16
lophytewell, I'm wanting to get involved.. and I contributed a package.. but my problem is the fact that I'm not exactly sure how to fix broken packages10:16
LaserJockpeople certainly get a lot of satisfaction of seeing their package getting uploaded10:16
bddebianWhy have we lost so damn many? :-(10:16
slomoLaserJock: but people come here with the will to package something10:16
LaserJockI think we need to push maintainership more10:16
bddebianLaserJock: I don't disagree but I'm not sure that's possible given the ratio of packages to MOTUs10:17
slomoLaserJock: maintainership as in build teams that care for a specific set of packages? like the telepathy example?10:17
LaserJockperhaps we could even have a basic REVU freeze for one cycle10:17
lophyteLaserJock: you mean like a dedicated person to a certain number of packages?10:17
crimsungeser: are you planning to apply for membership + MOTU anytime soon?10:17
LaserJockno uneccesary NEW packages10:17
LaserJockjust focus on the packages we have10:17
BazziRLaserJock: that produces bad reputation imo10:18
gesercrimsun: yes10:18
crimsungeser: excellent10:18
LaserJockwe are doing Debian+10:18
BazziR"ubuntu does not want new packages"10:18
LaserJockDebian doesn't have a bad rep for it's number of packages10:18
slomobut in debian someone specifically cares for one package10:19
lophytewell, if you guys would like a newbies PoV... I've read the packaging docs and I have a general idea of how packaging works, but I'm still not exactly sure how to fix packages.. I've downloaded a couple and looked at them and really had no idea where to go from there.. perhaps others are having the same problem and thus there isn't a great number of volunteers10:19
crimsunhonestly, we need to reimplement a release-exception "fast track" as we did during hoary where membership + MOTU were gained in one step. People like Fujitsu_ (if he weren't already a MOTU) and geser would be my candidates.10:19
LaserJockI think it's a little insane to think we can put in packages Debian doesn't, *and* manage our existing divergence10:19
BazziRlophyte: yes I've got the same problem...10:19
gesercrimsun: have I already the requirements for membership fulfilled or do I need to do more?10:19
crimsungeser: imo you certainly have10:20
slomoimho we should get a bunch of teams for specific sets of packages ready to care at least for the important parts of universe... and then we can care about getting NEW packages in and forming teams around them...10:20
slomogeser: with your number of syncs, merges, whatever you definitely have10:20
bddebianBut that still comes back to my question.  Who says what Universe packages are "important"?10:21
ajmitchok, back at keyboard10:21
lophyteI've got a suggestion...10:21
ajmitchbddebian: I pick & choose10:21
LaserJockbddebian: I do darn it! ;-)10:21
ajmitchlike the science team does10:21
slomobddebian: packages that people care about are important10:21
bddebianslomo: And you know which ones those are?10:21
lophytethe current MOTU "mentorship".. how exactly does it work? is it just a matter of a newbie having contact with a certain MOTU?10:21
ajmitchcrimsun: I still see quality problems ahead10:21
BazziRwouldn't it be possible to track the popularity? and if you see "hey 50,000 people want X" you mark it as vital?10:21
LaserJockit's not as easy as one might think10:22
slomobddebian: i guess you have a number of packages that you like... or a specific area of packages. these are the important packages (for you)10:22
bddebianBazziR: It's tough unless you have something like popcon but that requires user effort10:22
ajmitchBazziR: popcon is opt-in10:22
crimsunajmitch: intractable, yes10:22
bddebianslomo: Right but that is just or "you" or "me" not the user community who is supposed to be who we are supporting isn't it?10:23
LaserJockbddebian: got a better way?10:23
LaserJockforums! ;-)10:23
bddebianLaserJock: No, unfortunately I don't10:23
LaserJockok, some here are some ideas:10:24
LaserJock1) get good people into MOTU faster10:24
LaserJock2) utilize teams more10:24
LaserJock3) provide better decision making information (unmet deps, etc.)10:24
bddebianSounds great, make it so #1 ;-P10:25
LaserJock4) let the uberMOTUs focus on UVFe and things like that10:25
LaserJockand reviewing NEW10:25
bddebianWho are the uberMOTUs?10:25
LaserJockwe'll have to figure that out10:25
slomoreviewing NEW is critical10:26
crimsunthe ones handling UVF atm10:26
slomoespecially considering license and copyright stuff...10:26
bddebianslomo: Why?  More stuff to maintain?10:26
LaserJock5) less focus on REVU and NEW packages and more on maintaining what we have10:26
bddebianLaserJock: Sounds like we have dissenting opinions on that point :-)10:27
slomooh i thought with reviewing NEW you meant reviewing the NEW queue and deciding which stuff can go into the archive etc ;)10:27
LaserJockon 5)10:27
crimsunbddebian: packaging and licensing intricacies.10:27
LaserJockslomo: sorry, I was thinking more of REVU10:27
bddebianAye, that is what I thought you meant10:27
LaserJockmy point being10:27
LaserJockthat if we have good teams10:28
lophyteLaserJock: I've got a suggestion for #110:28
bddebiancrimsun: Yeah and that's tough even for me.  I don't, no do I want to, know/care much about licensing stuff unfortunately :-(10:28
LaserJockthen any NEW packages that come out of those teams will be easier to handle10:28
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LaserJockI'll give a for instance,10:28
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LaserJockas MOTU Science lead, I'd be willing to review science apps10:29
LaserJockand I'd be more so if the NEW packages came from the team10:29
=== bddebian makes no comment
LaserJockbddebian: please do10:29
LaserJockmy problem with REVU is there are a lot of packages and it's rather disorganized10:30
LaserJockI think reviewers are often spending more time on a package then the packagers10:30
slomoLaserJock: you should become some kind of MOTU manager... your ideas and thoughts are good :)10:31
LaserJockslomo: I would be willing to be a part of a MOTU manager team10:31
ajmitchLaserJock: do it10:31
LaserJockbut I think it's going to kill use if we only look to 1 person to do these things10:32
ajmitchwe don't want rule-by-committee10:32
LaserJockpart of a community volunteer model, IMO, would be having enough redundancy that if a person goes on vacation10:32
LaserJockor has to work on some RL stuff for a few weeks10:32
LaserJockeverything doesn't fall apart10:32
LaserJockajmitch: we are more or less ruled by commitee's, aka CC and TB10:33
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LaserJockbut perhaps we need a bit of a sabdfl figure ;-)10:34
ajmitchLaserJock: do it!10:34
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bddebianOr if we lose them to main, we don't go downhill :)10:35
lophyteLaserJock: I think it would be beneficial, if this isn't happening already, for MOTU "mentoring" to go a step further than what I've seen, and actually have a MOTU and a newbie sit down together for an hour on IRC or something, and work on the same package10:36
LaserJockyes, that can be helpful10:37
LaserJockthat can lead to a fair amount of time10:37
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LaserJockif we even had 10 MOTUs for that10:37
lophytetrue.. but its time invested in bringing more people in10:37
lophyteand then those people can train the next wave of hopefuls10:38
LaserJockbut will we really be gaining that much?10:38
LaserJockif I sit down with someone for 1 hr10:38
LaserJockand perhaps they get a package done in that time10:38
LaserJockI haven't magically created a MOTU10:39
crimsunsuperm1: uploaded your fix for #737, thanks.10:39
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superm1crimsun, thanks10:39
lophytewell, no of course not10:39
cbx33LaserJock, ++10:39
LaserJockdo you think it'd be enough10:39
LaserJockcbx33 is an exception of course ;-)10:39
crimsunmentoring is on-going10:39
cbx33*bah* - i agree with you10:39
lophytenot for them to be full-fledged MOTUs, no, but it'd be enough to start them in the right direction, rather than being kinda lost10:39
cbx33lophyte, hmmm10:39
=== nixternal would like to get more involved in here, just as long as someone is willing to hold my hand a little bit
LaserJocklophyte: ok, but we are all here10:40
cbx33whilst i agree with you in some respects10:40
ajmitchit only took about about 5-6 years to learn how to package10:40
cbx33and this is just my opinion here10:40
crimsunnixternal: I see you've aready hooked up with imbrandon10:40
ajmitchnixternal: tkae your medicine..10:40
nixternalwhoa whoa10:40
Plugnixternal: you're going to explode one day, I'm sure of it ;)10:40
nixternalimbrandon has hooked up with everyone, that cheater ;)10:40
cbx33but kinda knowing how and where to get the help......is more important than being shown how to pacakge10:40
nixternalajmitch: im waiting for you to ship me a new batch of that medicine ;)10:41
crimsunlophyte: mentoring is on-going10:41
LaserJockok, so here is something we need to also consider10:41
lophyteI agree10:41
LaserJockmentoring and MOTU creation seems to be taking a rather large part of our time10:42
nixternalPlug: i think i already have exploded...now there are bits and pieces of me trying to pick up more stuff ;)10:42
LaserJockfor some MOTUs is virtually all they do10:42
LaserJockfor other not10:42
LaserJockbut the question is, are we being efficient in our efforts10:42
cbx33LaserJock, whilst i'd love for someone to sit and have someone teach me10:42
PlugSomething I'm not quite sure of - in Debian, its common to become a developer just to package your own stuff10:42
Plugbut if you're a MOTU, it seems you're expected just to be one of the big group working on syncs, etc10:43
cbx33i think leanring on my own has been a great expereince10:43
Plugis that because no new development is supposed to happen in Ubuntu - it should be in Debian?10:43
ajmitchmorning Plug10:43
ajmitchPlug: we try & encourage people to get stuff into debian10:43
ajmitchwhich a whole other world of pain10:44
LaserJockPlug: much of that comes from our team maintenance strategy10:44
crimsuncbx33: one is never confined to the mentoring process. In fact, you would be ideal for mentoring others.10:44
cbx33crimsun, true....but if I started I'd be worried that I'd rely on the mentoring10:44
ajmitchI'd love for someone to have taught me :)10:44
cbx33because I "know it's right"10:44
dholbachnight fellas10:44
crimsunnight daniel10:44
LaserJockcya dholbach10:45
cbx33rather than trying and learning from my mistakes ;)10:45
cbx33and I made a fair few10:45
LaserJocksome people learn differently too10:45
LaserJocksome people only learn by doing it themselves10:45
=== dholbach hugs you all
LaserJockother's learn by reading a book10:45
dholbachyou guys rock!10:45
crimsunright, that's the point I'm making. Of course mentoring isn't the only way.10:45
LaserJockmentoring in a way though can fulfill all that10:45
nixternalcbx33: i hear you..im sick of NOT learning from my mistakes, and im sick of making mistakes others did when Linux was just a dream ;)10:45
LaserJockif the mentor identifies the learning still of the mentee and then directs them to the right place10:46
PlugLaserJock: LaserJock see, I'd be interested in joining MOTU for a small number of packages I maintained, but I'm not sure either how quickly I'd be up to speed, or if I have the time, for the general super syncing/revuing/etc that the wonderful MOTUs here do10:46
LaserJockPlug: that's fine10:46
LaserJockwe have teams10:46
LaserJockthat's nothing new10:46
LaserJockok, so quickly, can we identify a few key problems we are having in MOTU land10:47
LaserJockI see maybe:10:48
LaserJock1) reviewing10:48
LaserJock2) lack of prioritized general task lists10:49
LaserJock3) people fall throw the cracks too easily10:49
ajmitch(too much crack)10:49
Plug(plumber's crack)10:49
LaserJockanybody want to add more?10:50
ajmitchbad image10:50
ajmitchpeople expect MOTUs to 'do it all'10:50
lophyteI think #2 is a big one, and that might be one of the reasons that hopefuls are discouraged10:50
ajmitchso that new MOTUs are expected to jump on REVU & start reviewing, for example10:50
crimsun#2 subsumes #1 and #310:51
LaserJockajmitch: so maybe 4) lack of MOTU definition and skill sets10:51
nixternal#5 nixternal is always in the way10:51
lophyteI think the task lists would be a big help...10:51
lophyteI wanna help, but I'm not exactly sure where or how to help10:52
nixternallook at lophyte go, he gets a sip of the membership drug on now he is on a rampage ;)10:52
ajmitchblame me10:52
lophyteI was told to play around with Edgy packages w/unmet deps and try to fix them, but I'm not exactly sure how.. that's the problem for me10:52
ajmitchI was meant to setup the merge list but didn't get to it10:52
Plugajmitch: you do far too much already.  lets blame someone else for a change! :)10:52
ajmitchPlug: no, I barely do anything10:53
lophytenixternal: nah, I've been a bit involved with MOTU.. just been busy lately :P10:53
LaserJock ajmitch I think that's a symptom, but not the problem ;-)10:53
Plugyou had me fooled10:53
superm1so when you guys are saying task lists - why not integrate more into REVU, its a good central location?  Like a page listing all bugs with MOTU on the list to CC or assign to?10:53
LaserJocksuperm1: because we are trying to move to LP10:54
LaserJockwe actually did have a nice task list python script on revu for merge/sync for dapper10:54
ajmitchLaserJock: what I was talking about ~2 min ago10:54
LaserJockI know10:55
bddebianajmitch: Who needs to teach you, when you already know everything? :)10:55
ajmitchbddebian: I said taught, and I don't know everything10:55
LaserJockok, how's this for a plan:10:56
LaserJockI'll try to take on an interim role of MOTU manager, work up (with help ;-) ) some stuff on identifying problems and solutions, maybe talk with jono a bit10:57
LaserJockand by UDS Mountain View have an actionable plan10:57
ajmitchah, LaserJock the MOTU celebrity10:58
LaserJockI sooo don't want that10:58
crimsunwe can set priorities based on the release cycle. At the beginning of the release cycle, we need to focus on: 1), 2), 3) in descending priority. After autosync stops, we shift to this order: 2), 3), 1). After main UVF, we shift to ... After upstream UVF, we shift to... and so on.10:58
ajmitchcrimsun: yes, I was thinking of writing up a general release schedule earlier10:58
ajmitch'earlier' only being about 2 hours ago :)10:58
LaserJockI think it's most confusing for people when they come in mid release10:59
lophytethat's me10:59
LaserJockonce you've seen it done once, you get a feel for it, IMO10:59
=== ajmitch is just old, bitter & cynical about the world
LaserJockI doubt the old10:59
LaserJockbut I'm sure you're right about the rest ;-)10:59
lophyteis there anywhere in particular that I could help out with?11:00
LaserJockfix bugs11:00
LaserJockthat's the usual line11:01
superm1oh thats what they always say around here....11:01
LaserJockit'd be nice to turn that into something more helpful11:01
ajmitchwith ~16K bugs open, it's a bit hard to point at some & say go for it11:02
lophyteso just pick one and go for it?11:02
ajmitchI just end up selecting things I know about & want working11:02
geserlophyte: I've started with looking at packages with unmet deps (apt-cache unmet -i)11:02
Plugajmitch: is it your birthday?11:02
LaserJockI really think it might be the way to go11:03
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ajmitchPlug: out by several months11:03
lophytegeser: yeah, that's where I was told to start.. but a lot of them I couldn't figure out11:03
Plugpeople normally feel most old & cynical on their birthday :)11:03
LaserJocklophyte: did you ask about them in here?11:03
ajmitchPlug: then every day is my birthday!11:03
crimsunlophyte: perhaps you can work w/ geser (if he's willing to mentor you)11:03
lophytehmm.. no.. I didn't, actually11:03
ajmitcharen't I lucky? :)11:03
Plugevery day is a winding road11:03
LaserJocklophyte: we can't help if you don't ask ;-)11:04
lophytegood point :P11:04
LaserJockand mine has derailed11:04
lophytegeser: would you mind working with me on that?11:04
ajmitchI don't think people would want me mentoring them11:04
geserlophyte: I will help you11:05
LaserJockajmitch: you can be the MOTU QA, making sure these silly Hopefuls are in line ;-)11:05
ajmitchI'll scare too many away11:05
LaserJocknp, as long as the ones that stay sign over their life to MOTU11:06
ajmitchPlug: ready to sign?11:06
lophytegeser: cool :)11:06
geserlophyte: packages still depending on gnustep-back0.10 should be easy once gnustep-back0.11 is there (see bug 63839 for an overlook about the gnustep situation)11:07
UbugtuMalone bug 63839 in gnustep-make "[UVF Exception]  Sync to gnustep-make 1.13.0-1 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6383911:07
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superm1lophyte, I'll work at helping resolve unmet deps too11:08
lophytesuperm1: cool11:08
superm1i'm sure we can make that list very small in a week or two11:08
lophytewe can be the unmet deps team or something :P11:08
ajmitchgeser: sounds like a tangle of dependencies11:09
ajmitchresolving unmet deps is nearly always just a rebuild11:09
ajmitchlast time I went through the whole list & threw them all at pbuilder to see what broke11:09
=== ajmitch cranks up pbuilder
lophytespeaking of which...11:09
lophytewhere do we toss the fixed packages?11:09
superm1attach debdiffs to bugs11:10
=== LaserJock runs as black hole centered around ajmitch's machine forms
lophyteah, alright11:10
ajmitchoh goody, I still have the script to automate the build11:10
LaserJockok, well I think I'm off11:10
superm1cya LaserJock11:10
LaserJockI wasn't supposed to get on IRC today11:10
LaserJockand now I've 2 hrs past lunch11:11
LaserJockI'll try to work up some stuff from our conversation11:11
LaserJockthanks for the input lophyte geser superm1 et al.11:12
ajmitchirc addicts...11:14
=== ajmitch generates a new unmet deps list
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geserwhile looking at the unmet deps list, are packages which aren't build from source anymore removed (semi-)automatically?11:16
bddebianSorry, vacuuming, can you all start all over? ;-P11:17
Plugajmitch: what am I signing?11:17
ajmitchPlug: your life over to MOTU11:17
PlugI have to ask too many quesitons of too many people atm.  I don't mind packaging but I dont like programming or Autoconf ;)11:18
superm1ajmitch, when you finish up that unmet dep list, can you most it somewhere so we know whats really broken without having to do our own large pbuilder runs?11:18
geserwhile looking at the unmet deps list, are packages which aren't build from source anymore removed (semi-)automatically?11:18
bddebiangeser: no, they need to be requested to be removed afaik11:18
lophyteer, nm11:19
ajmitchsuperm1: sure11:20
lophyteI'm looking at the first on the list.. postgresql-8.0-pljava-gcj11:20
ajmitch:0:> wc -l unmet.edgy.2006100311:20
ajmitch178 unmet.edgy.2006100311:20
ajmitchany bets on how long it'll take me to rebuild those?11:20
superm1u have several build boxes i hope :)11:21
lophyteor not11:21
sivangajmitch: need a hand with the unmet deps stuff?11:21
ajmitchsuperm1: just one11:21
superm1well i'm going to be gone for the night, if you want to distribute your script, we can all run portions of the list11:21
lophyteokay, so once we have a really-broken list from ajmitch.. shall we start then?11:21
superm1and report back the results11:21
ajmitchsuperm1: it should be done in a few hours :)11:21
ajmitchsivang: everyone will need to be fixing packages11:22
geserlophyte: when you look https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/postgresql-pljava you will see that  postgresql-8.0-pljava-gcj isn't build from this source anymore11:22
superm1Ok, i'm running off to dinner.  i'll catch up with you guys later tonite in that case.11:22
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ajmitchI'll need to rewrite my script to handle my new pbuilder config11:22
lophytegeser: ahh.. its 8.1 now11:23
geserlophyte:  postgresql-8.0-pljava-gcj was build from this source package in dapper11:23
lophyteI see11:23
sivangajmitch: where's the list posted?11:23
lophytegeser: so what happens to the 8.0 package, then?11:24
lophytedoes someone need to remove it?11:24
geseras far as I see it yes, but I'm hestitant to request removal of packages11:26
lophyteajmitch: are you gonna post up that list of broken packages when you're done?11:27
geserI didn't find out the right procedure yet11:27
ajmitchlophyte: sure11:28
ajmitchsivang: not there yet, be patient11:28
lophyteajmitch: cool11:28
lophyteI'll be back shortly11:28
sivangajmitch: sorry, was just asking11:28
ajmitch"Continued failure to grasp simple boolean logic. Pick up a penalty card.11:36
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