[01:54] <zul> @schedule montreal
[01:54] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 04 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 05 Oct 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Oct 17:00: Kubuntu | 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[01:58] <RichEd> hello ... coffee ... back in a flash
[02:03] <ogra> meep
[02:04] <ogra> do we have quorum for EC ?
[02:04] <ogra> (doesnt look like)
[02:04] <highvoltage> moop
[02:05] <ogra> one more and we can make decisions :)
[02:05] <cbx33> awww....heheh
[02:05] <highvoltage> jsgotango is having connectivity problems after their bad weather
[02:06] <highvoltage> and LaserJock is probably sleeping?
[02:06] <ogra> right
[02:06] <cbx33> hehehe
[02:06] <cbx33> damn it I can't even spell
[02:08] <rodarvus> >:-)
[02:08] <ogra> sad, it would be nice if we could approve sbalneav ... 
[02:08] <ogra> and willvdl 
[02:08] <highvoltage> rodarvus: cool hair
[02:08] <rodarvus> ogra: I'll approve sbalneav and willvdl, let me just hack your LP account
[02:08] <ogra> but they both havent added themselves to the agenda anyway
[02:08] <highvoltage> :(
[02:08] <willvdl> true.
[02:08] <rodarvus> highvoltage, those are not hair but evil wings ;)
[02:08] <highvoltage> I wish they would
[02:09] <rodarvus> argh, not wings, horns
[02:09] <highvoltage> rodarvus: they look cool nontheless :)
[02:09] <rodarvus> :)
[02:10] <ogra> and RichEd is also outstanding ...
[02:10] <highvoltage> sbalneav is probably also sleeping, so it would probably suite him better to go for membership at the 20:00 meeting.
[02:10] <ogra> well, jammcq just showed up in #ltsp 
[02:10] <rodarvus> JaneW once mentioned passing her EC membership to RichEd, do we have any news on this subject?
[02:10] <ogra> migth be sbalneav shows up during the meeting, they share the same TZ
[02:10] <rodarvus> (or if something like this is going to happen any time in the future)
[02:10] <highvoltage> ok
[02:11] <ogra> rodarvus, thast something the EC should vote on ... and RichEd needs to be member first
[02:11] <RichEd> rodarvus: I'm applying through the normal channels ... don't want to do any family pass the baton ...
[02:11] <ogra> i'm not opposed to you taking that over, but we need an EC vote for it i assume
[02:11] <ogra> and indeed membership is a requirement
[02:12] <rodarvus> RichEd, the fact that you two are on the same family is not relevant to what I'm saying, actually. I'm mentioning you because you are Education Manager at Canonical, and thus, on a position where you spend 100% of your work time on related subjects
[02:12] <ogra> right
[02:12] <RichEd> yes ... but to avoid any "favouritism becuase he is sleeping with the other communtiy member" I'd rather apply normally and disjointed from JaneW
[02:12] <willvdl> and me because I'm special
[02:12] <highvoltage> lol
[02:12] <rodarvus> but of course, I don't want it to be --forced, I'd like to see this voted through EC
[02:12] <highvoltage> (sorry)
[02:12] <ogra> haha
[02:13] <willvdl> and bigger than you
[02:13] <RichEd> I'll call JaneW now to see what her thoughts are on keeping or resigning ... will let you know ...
[02:13] <highvoltage> rodarvus, RichEd: rest assured, we will do everything properly, I think it's only natural for RichEd to be EC, but we will follow the proper procedures to make sure it happenens properly
[02:14] <ogra> to sad she cant come ... we'd have quorum then ;)
[02:14] <RichEd> Let's postpone the EC until the top of the hour and see if we have any sign of LaserJock or others.
[02:14] <rodarvus> highvoltage, exactly
[02:14] <highvoltage> the problem is that JaneW can't make the meeting anymore because of her new job, and making the meetings is a bit of a requirement, no?
[02:14] <ogra> right
[02:14] <rodarvus> I don't expect LaserJock to come, I think his timezone is UTC-7 or such
[02:14] <highvoltage> ogra: could she vote by e-mail?
[02:14] <ogra> sure
[02:14] <RichEd> Can someone give me a web service irc link and I can get her to try that now ?
[02:14] <ogra> we could do a pre-votin now
[02:15] <rodarvus> (aka, about 5:14 AM there ;) )
[02:15] <Fujitsu> rodarvus, yeah, about that, he's well and truly asleep :)
[02:15] <ogra> RichEd --> cbx33 should be able
[02:15] <ogra> rodarvus, thast why we have 5 members ;)
[02:15] <willvdl> I've been looking into that with no luck
[02:16] <cbx33> willvdl what was that one you found yesterday
[02:16] <cbx33> sorry monday
[02:16] <willvdl> freenode seems to ban the public cgi:irc channels so you need your own server
[02:16] <willvdl> cbx33, they didn't work.
[02:17] <cbx33> unfortunately the person who I use this one from would repfer if I didn;t tell anyone the address, they have limited server bandwidth
[02:17] <cbx33> I used to have my own but my new server company dissallows it
[02:17] <cbx33> is there any possibility of getting one set up
[02:17] <RichEd> okay ... let me call JaneW and see if she can respond to an email voting request ...
[02:17] <RichEd> ogra: do you want to do tech in the meanwhile ?
[02:18] <willvdl> want to try ssh port forwarding
[02:18] <ogra> right
[02:18] <ogra> there is not much on the plate for tech
[02:18] <cbx33> willvdl: that's against TOS here :(
[02:18] <ogra> beta is out ... i sent testing procedures to -devel for it 
[02:18] <cbx33> highvoltage: you rock
[02:18] <rodarvus> willvdl, ask elmo to see if he can setup cgi:irc for you (maybe on a temporary fashion)
[02:18] <ogra> i have some outstanding issues on my plate:
[02:19] <ogra> ldm switches to console before switching to X ... thats a moinor uglyness i have a patch for already
[02:20] <willvdl> brill. HP needs it internally
[02:20] <ogra> the installer was set to always set edubuntu as hostname at one time, i want to revert it and make it a user choice, but Kamion asked me to first inspect why we did it first place ...
[02:20] <ogra> thats on my todo (lots of log diggin)
[02:21] <ogra> the german translation for the console mode in the installer defaults to "install a server" in the translation
[02:21] <highvoltage> CGI-IRC for #ubuntu-meeting: http://duke.za.net/cgi-bin/cgiirc/irc.cgi
[02:21] <ogra> (which is totally wrong indeed)
[02:21] <ogra> apart from that a pessulus/SCP fix is waiting ...
[02:21] <cbx33> pessulus is patched
[02:22] <cbx33> SCP is waiting for you to patch with the line I gave you
[02:22] <ogra> did you send me the SCP pastch already ?
[02:22] <cbx33> and we just need the gconf patch after that which seb128 is going to do
[02:22] <cbx33> ogra: the tiny tiny one
[02:22] <ogra> yes, i remember it ... must be in my mail somewhere
[02:23] <ogra> i think thats it ...
[02:23] <cbx33> ogra: ok I'll leave that one with you
[02:23] <ogra> what i didnt test yet is upgradeability from dapper ... for ltsp
[02:23] <cbx33> it's a /user/  -   /" + user + "/ replacement
[02:23] <ogra> thats on my list for this weekend (have no dapper around currently)
[02:23] <cbx33> soemthing like that
[02:23] <cbx33> hmmm I have a dapper
[02:23] <cbx33> want me to upgrade it at somepoint?
[02:24] <ogra> would be cool to know if that works ...
[02:24] <ogra> (without regenerating the chroot, but upgrading it)
[02:24] <cbx33> ogra: so I upgrade one the nthe other?
[02:24] <cbx33> want me to do it today or tomorrow?
[02:25] <ogra> as you have time ... i just need to know about upgrade bugs before RC
[02:25] <cbx33> well tomorrow will be better
[02:25] <cbx33> as I said I'm off home soon
[02:26] <rodarvus> argh
[02:26] <ogra> apart from that, the kalzium issue seems gotten more quiet again ...
[02:26] <cbx33> yes
[02:26] <ogra> Riddell wanted to invite the kdeedu coordinator to MV
[02:27] <ogra> so we can talk about such stuff in person there
[02:27] <Riddell> I don't know if she can come, she's still investigating
[02:27] <ogra> i think thats it from my side about tech ... 
[02:27] <ogra> rodarvus, ?
[02:27] <rodarvus> What I'm going to talk is not news, but its important we all are fully aware of this as soon as possible.
[02:27] <rodarvus> Next month we'll be holding the next Ubuntu Developers Summit, on Mountain View.
[02:27] <rodarvus> I'd like to ask *everyone* to take some moments/hours to think about the features they like to see worked on during edgy+1 development cycle, and add them to the spec list for discussion. (here -> https://features.launchpad.net/)
[02:27] <rodarvus> *NOW*  is the right time to start writing down the features you'd like to see implemented. Please plan how much time you'll be able to donate to Edubuntu for the next development cycle, and plan what you'll be doing accordingly. If you need any help with that, please do not hesitate contacting us on #edubuntu.
[02:27] <rodarvus> Finally, when adding new specifications to features.launchpad.net, don't forget marking it for discussion on 'UDS Mountain View', so it gets a chance at being discussed there.
[02:27] <rodarvus> :)
[02:28] <cbx33> heheheh
[02:28] <ogra> right 
[02:28] <ogra> i can give a shoprt list for edubuntu/ltsp stuff i plan
[02:29] <ogra> - ldap/kerberos server 
[02:29] <ogra> - CD writing on clients
[02:29] <rodarvus> *cough* avahi *chough*
[02:29] <ogra> - mic input and volume control on clients
[02:29] <RichEd> JaneW is trying the web 'face and if not, will vote via email.
[02:29] <ogra> - more output in the ltsp installer part
[02:29] <sivang> ogra: that mesan libburn first :-)
[02:29] <ogra> thats what i'm planning
[02:29] <sivang> *means
[02:30] <ogra> sivang, right ...
[02:30] <ogra> thats why i hope pygi can come to MV
[02:30] <rodarvus> would you like to consider moving Edubuntu installation to the Live CD? (I mean, at least have a session on this subject at MV)
[02:30] <cbx33> pygi isn't here at the moment and won't be for a while will he
[02:30] <cbx33> he's without net for like 2 months
[02:30] <ogra> but i didnt hear back yet about sopnsorships and who has his invitation mails ...
[02:30] <sivang> cbx33: he said he'll be checking emails
[02:30] <cbx33> ah ok
[02:30] <sivang> ogra: I hope we can do some libburn specification from remote
[02:31] <ogra> (and that rather belongs to the community topic
[02:32] <rodarvus> ogra, I'd like to have a session on this subject, and also (with you and RichEd, if he confirms his tickets for UDS) about the "extra cd on top of ubuntu" idea
[02:32] <ogra> sivang, pygi was suggested for sponsoring, but i havent heard back yet ...
[02:32] <ogra> rodarvus, right
[02:32] <highvoltage> yay
[02:32] <ogra> JaneW, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[02:32] <cbx33> ogra: mails for sponsorship have gone out
[02:32] <cbx33> JaneW: 
[02:32] <rodarvus> hi JaneW!
[02:33] <sivang> ogra: ah I see, so I guess he will be there if he realizes he got the email
[02:33] <cbx33> sivang: heheh
[02:33] <sivang> I suggest someone calling him if has his phone number
[02:33] <cbx33> oooh i have his phone
[02:33] <cbx33> I'll just txt him
[02:34] <RichEd> rodarvus: I'm in ... we need to chat to Matt as well ... Mark was not opposed to the idea (yesterday) but wants to make sure that our upstream is happy with the concept.
[02:34] <sivang> cbx33: thank you :)
[02:34] <rodarvus> nice!
[02:34] <sivang> RichEd: is this about libburn ?
[02:35] <ogra> rodarvus, i'll only vote for it if i dont have to do additional 48h shifts for testing
[02:35] <RichEd> sivang: nope about "seeing Edubuntu as an add-on pack install on top of a standard Ubuntu install base"
[02:36] <sivang> RichEd: ah, I see. sorry for getting into the discussion then, opps :-/
[02:36] <ogra> it will require us to start testing of milestones a week before instead of two / three days (and nights)
[02:36] <rodarvus> ogra, yes, thats why it needs discussion. Overloading you is *really* not on the plans :)
[02:36] <ogra> RichEd, eeek
[02:36] <RichEd> note the "apostrophes" this is just a suggestion and we need to assess impact !
[02:36] <ogra> RichEd, that wont work, we need the install CD in any case
[02:37] <ogra> since we do some special stuff with the installer
[02:37] <ogra> but i'm not opposed to a second CD 
[02:37] <ogra> if i'm not the only one who is qable to build/change and test it
[02:37] <RichEd> yes ... there would still be a single CD edition of Edubuntu ... with the Ubuntu base and Edubuntu add-on pack shipping as an easy install
[02:38] <ogra> right
[02:38] <ogra> and a add on CD ... for extra SW
[02:38] <willvdl> I don't get it. a one CD and a two CD version?
[02:38] <cbx33> yup
[02:38] <ogra> i'm not sure d-i is intelligent enough to work with only one CD then 
[02:38] <ogra> afaik you cant force any packages onto one of the CDs
[02:39] <ogra> so it will ask for the second CD if a package isnt on the first
[02:39] <ogra> which could break installs if you dont have the second one
[02:39] <cbx33> hmmm
[02:39] <RichEd> willvdl: conceptually - Edubuntu Desktop Edition = ubuntu base install package + edubuntu desktop add-on
[02:39] <ogra> but Kamion is surely the better guy to explain the capabilities
[02:39] <RichEd> willvdl: conceptually - Edubuntu Server Edition = ubuntu base install package + edubuntu LTSP add-on
[02:40] <ogra> well, no need to split server/desktop
[02:40] <ogra> the server parts are minor (space wise)
[02:40] <RichEd> For space ? Otherwise we are back to the 1CD problem ?
[02:40] <highvoltage> you would be able to fit on a lot of edubuntu on one cd, if edubuntu itself was an add-on to Ubuntu. the problem is that you loose the turn-key factor :/
[02:40] <ogra> i'd rather say base CD for server/workstation install (as we have it now) and add on CD for additional software
[02:41] <RichEd> That's why we are saying that there should still be the turnkey "Edubuntu product CD"
[02:41] <ogra> right
[02:41] <ogra> but please dont make two installer CDs
[02:41] <ogra> thast not doable from a tester perspective
[02:42] <RichEd> But conceptually, to separate them. also in the mind of the user ... so that there is an undertsnading that we have an ubuntu base.
[02:42] <RichEd> *understanding
[02:42] <rodarvus> lets discuss this outside the meeting, please :)
[02:42] <ogra> the CD as we have it now is fine ... lets just move some parts over to the second one in favor of language packs on the first CD
[02:42] <ogra> right
[02:42] <ogra> RichEd, i dont think there is do8ubt of our ubuntu base on the user side
[02:42] <RichEd> rodarvus: fine ... just allaying fears of any attempt to force a decision ... we are raising a topic, not making a change.
[02:43] <rodarvus> RichEd, exactly
[02:43] <rodarvus> well said
[02:43] <ogra> but dont raise the requirement of manpower for the first CD please ...
[02:43] <ogra> add-on is fine
[02:43] <willvdl> on the subject of language packs, do we officially support mozilla (firefox) language packs?
[02:43] <ogra> ok, tech done ?
[02:43] <RichEd> ogra: all your concerns will be on the table :) that's why we have & respect your expertise :)
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra: one thing on tech
[02:44] <ogra> willvdl, they are required by the langpacks, yes
[02:44] <willvdl> and locale switching?
[02:44] <highvoltage> I wanted to bring this up last time, but ran out of time
[02:44] <ogra> willvdl, thats why i vote for xulrunner inclusion since dapper
[02:44] <ogra> highvoltage, shoot
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra: for testing, what can we do to take load off of you?
[02:45] <highvoltage> I'm having trouble testing myself because of lack of bandwidth, but there are many people out there that are willing to test.
[02:45] <ogra> highvoltage, be aware of the release schedule, have spare HW to test 
[02:45] <cgi_voltage> (test)
[02:45] <ogra> and keep your isos up to date (rsync daily with a cron script)
[02:46] <ogra> two or three days before a scheduled milestone start testing and report bugs
[02:46] <ogra> thats simply it ...
[02:46] <highvoltage> ok, so we'll work around milestones?
[02:47] <ogra> pips1 was a big help for beta ... 
[02:47] <highvoltage> ok, np. great.
[02:47] <highvoltage> JaneW_: ping
[02:47] <ogra> highvoltage, well, milestones, beta and RC ... as well as the final release
[02:47] <highvoltage> ok
[02:47] <cbx33> I'll test the dapper -> edgy upgrade
[02:47] <ogra> (everything that talks about CD in the release schedule is valiud)
[02:48] <ogra> and testing the final Cd needs indeed the most effort
[02:49] <ogra> (i usually test everything twice there at least)
[02:49] <highvoltage> ok, it seems like October 18/19 will be critical times for testing. we can work around that then.
[02:49] <ogra> great
[02:49] <ogra> that would be a major help
[02:50] <ogra> rodarvus, it would also be nice if you were able to do CD builds etc in an emergency (i.e. i get hit by the potential bus) we should see that we get you up to speed for edgy+1 on that
[02:50] <rodarvus> ogra, yes, I'd like to be up to date on this
[02:50] <ogra> :)
[02:51] <rodarvus> actually I planned to spend some hours learning how to do that on Wiesbaden, but due to, hmm, some circunstances, I was unable :)
[02:51] <ogra> lets do it in MV then :)
[02:51] <ogra> its easy ...
[02:52] <rodarvus> yay!
[02:52] <ogra> ouch ... evil JaneW ... already approved RichEd 
[02:52] <rodarvus> I'd like to do one or two milestone cds for edubuntu on edgy+1 too
[02:52] <ogra> :)
[02:52] <rodarvus> (when the new name is going to be public? :D )
[02:53] <ogra> rodarvus, that'd be really cool, seems i'll be travelling a lot next release
[02:53] <rodarvus> *nod*
[02:53] <rodarvus> anyhow, were are we on the meeting, I'm lost?
[02:53] <ogra> documentation :
[02:54] <ogra> anyone up for some doc talk ?
[02:54] <cbx33> I've done SCP docs
[02:54] <cbx33> will put them up on the wi8ki
[02:54] <ogra> cool !
[02:54] <RichEd> this section is now : documentation techical :)
[02:54] <ogra> we should have a help button in edgy+1 ;)
[02:54] <ogra> and yelped docs ....
[02:55] <ogra> for now wiki will do (unless half done docs get synced to help.ubuntu.com again like the ltsp multiarch one)
[02:55] <ogra> RichEd, we'll do EC at the end (usually)
[02:56] <RichEd> ogra : great :) tx
[02:57] <ogra> anything else for docs ?
[02:57] <ogra> tech docs, sorry :)
[02:58] <RichEd> ogra: perhaps explain about LTSP and sbalneaves helping us out there ? just to get the group informed ?
 sbalneav is working on that
 ltsp.org will also soon have our docs
 and we'll have theirs 
 he's merging them
[02:59] <ogra> as you probablky might have seen in the beta announcement, we're allowed to call our ltsp the ltsp 5 prerelease in edgy ;)
[02:59] <RichEd> So we'll have the best LTSP documentation, direct from the source :)
[02:59] <ogra> jammcq explicitly approved that 
[02:59] <ogra> right
[03:00] <RichEd> We'll make sure that it is in form that can be integrated into the cookbook / handbook.
[03:00] <ogra> good
[03:00] <RichEd> Speaking of which, Hedgemage has given me pre-warning that her days as a Cookbook leader are numbered.
[03:01] <ogra> ok
[03:01] <ogra> will she vaniush completely ?
[03:01] <RichEd> She feels it is time to pass the baton to fresh blood, and she wants to move back into more dev work. 
[03:01] <ogra> she wanted to move on to development once she drops docs she said ...
[03:01] <ogra> YAY !
[03:01] <RichEd> She will still be a strong Edubuntu community member, just wants to change her badge.
[03:01] <ogra> yep, she talked about it before
[03:02] <RichEd> (She is also helping pips1 and myself with drupal skills for the "education user community space")
[03:02] <ogra> but with pygi moving on to more ltsp stuff and her moving on to development in general out doc team is quite dead
[03:02] <ogra> we'll need fresh blood
[03:02] <cbx33> right I'm off see ya later guys
[03:03] <RichEd> So we have a general call for anyone who feels inspired to get invovled with documentation !
[03:03] <ogra> probably a point we should raise with the k21 guys
[03:03] <ogra> *k12
[03:03] <RichEd> We can send a mail to the list, and post an announcement, and make use oour blogging people to put the word out.
[03:03] <highvoltage> Nuffing: ping
[03:03] <ogra> (sorry there is a drill rumbling near my left ear, my concentration is dropping a bit)
[03:03] <willvdl> I'm keen to look into docs but will need to brush up some skills
[03:03] <RichEd> *of our
[03:04] <RichEd> Can I suggest then Will that you offer to be the Doc team Project Manager ? and then we look for people to assist ?
[03:04] <highvoltage> Nuffing: if you can read this, but can't reply, please stand by, we might have to accept your answer via e-mail
[03:05] <willvdl> RichEd, I'll need to spend some time on the process and platform but I could I suppose
[03:05] <RichEd> It will be a big help if we have one head (brain) looking at all documentation ... with the handbook being a sub-section. We can then get a clearer view and cohesive material.
[03:06] <RichEd> i.e. across web, & print, and handbook ...etc.
[03:06] <rodarvus> RichEd, willvdl: that would be *great*!
[03:06] <RichEd> Note that for web, pips1 and I would do the majority of the work, it would require Will to manage the cohesion, not put in the edit time.
[03:07] <ogra> from JaneW by mail: Sorry I 'approved' RichEd's member status with a proviso note saying pending EC majority vote. It was the only way I could see to show my vote without having IRC access. I can not connect properly but seem to be getting 20 lines of text retrospectively and then disconnecting.
[03:07] <highvoltage> RichEd: that sounds good
[03:07] <ogra> Please over-rule my approval as required.
[03:07] <RichEd> Same thing for the handbook ... Will you and I can take it offline for when you get back to Cape Town.
[03:08] <willvdl> okie
[03:08] <highvoltage> crazypurple: we received your message sent to ogra, thanks
[03:08] <highvoltage> ogra: over-rule?
[03:09] <ogra> highvoltage, if its required, yes :)
[03:09] <highvoltage> ok. I don't know what it means :)
[03:09] <highvoltage> oh ok, nm!
[03:09] <ogra> we are allowed to revert it if needed
[03:09] <highvoltage> ok
[03:10] <highvoltage> cut and paste it in teh notepad
[03:10] <highvoltage> heh, sorry, that was supposed to be a joke in another channel
[03:11] <ogra> are we done with tech/doc ?
[03:11] <ogra> ok
[03:11] <ogra> artwokr !
[03:11] <ogra> (or art work)
[03:11] <willvdl> the art of woks
[03:12] <ogra> cbx33 is gone ... but i got the last piece for the usplash ... yesterday ...
[03:12] <ogra> did everybody see the new artwork in edgy already ?
[03:13] <willvdl> haven't had a chance yet
[03:13] <willvdl> just bits
[03:13] <ogra> i'll do some screenshots before the next meeting
[03:13] <ogra> its pertty consistent ... everything fits this time ... 
[03:13] <ogra> and we turn quite yellow this time
[03:14] <ogra> yellow/orangeish
[03:14] <willvdl> yellow = colour of intelligence
[03:14] <ogra> and it doesnt look as young as the last ones
[03:14] <highvoltage> willvdl: like a 7-11?
[03:14] <willvdl> they're green & yellow
[03:14] <ogra> i.e. it will fit for most ages 
[03:14] <ogra> i'd say 7-18 for the default ...
[03:15] <highvoltage> :)
[03:15] <willvdl> ogra,what are the icons like?
[03:15] <ogra> (i'm working daily with it and it doesnt feel disturbing)
[03:15] <ogra> the ones we always used ... there were no changes in the icons
[03:15] <highvoltage> ogra: still gartoon, right?
[03:15] <highvoltage> ok
[03:15] <ogra> right
[03:15] <RichEd> we've already had this positive feedback on the mail list: The new wallpaper is more suitable for "older" students. Also the login- and the logout-sound is a ear candy.
[03:15] <ogra> yeah
[03:15] <highvoltage> cbx33++ :)
[03:15] <willvdl> woot
[03:15] <ogra> many thanks to cbx33 :)
[03:16] <ogra> ande aliasVegas indeed
[03:16] <ogra> but we'll need a bigger artteam in edgy+1
[03:16] <ogra> we cant put everything on their sholders
[03:16] <willvdl> yeah, we spoke about this last week
[03:16] <RichEd> And not to forget: It is now very comfortable to use the local devices of a client, especially usb-sticks. Thanks for the work, specially for ltsp-work
[03:16] <ogra> :)
[03:16] <RichEd> ogra: pete and lisa and I are discussing a larger team
[03:17] <ogra> great
[03:17] <RichEd> we raised it at the meeting, and also have had quite a detailed offline discussion.
[03:17] <ogra> that and the doc team need a lot of care taking in edgy+1
[03:17] <RichEd> To summarise briefly:
[03:17] <ogra> the dev side seems to grow on its own now ...
[03:18] <RichEd> We proposed making Lisas role "Education Art Director" - the coordinator across Web & Wiki & Community & OS
[03:18] <ogra> great
[03:19] <RichEd> i.e. responsible for a consistent look & feel across the whole experience
[03:19] <ogra> but dont forget we'll need a team first for a team lead ;)
[03:19] <RichEd> We then need to rectruit for biger community.
[03:19] <ogra> right
[03:19] <RichEd> *recruit * bigger
[03:19] <ogra> i'm setting my hopes into k12 people that might consider coming over or joining efforts
[03:20] <highvoltage> I believe that is likely to happen.
[03:20] <ogra> i hope so
[03:20] <RichEd> Note that recruitement is an important part of the End User Community Space goals ! 
[03:21] <RichEd> Pete said to me last week that even Lisa says she does not understand most of what we are talking about in the meetings ...
[03:21] <ogra> well, she can run her own artteam meeting if she likes :)
[03:21] <ogra> and just paste a link to the outcome here :)
[03:21] <RichEd> We need a space for people who are "afraid of technical stuff / people" but who still have great skills to offer.
[03:22] <ogra> right
[03:22] <willvdl> at the risk of diluting our channels
[03:22] <RichEd> So it is not only a community space to serve thier needs, but also to act as a space for us to interact with the "human beings".
[03:22] <ogra> we're to small yet to make a big split
[03:22] <ogra> else i'd vote for an edubuntu-artwork ML
[03:23] <ogra> but for now the -users list should do
[03:23] <RichEd> I don't expect the techncial people here to go anywhere ! I see myself as standing with one leg on each side of the divide ... with tech people as we have at the moment, and people like Lisa and the end users on the other side.
[03:24] <RichEd> We must not do anything to dilute the spirit and energy that is here. That is a fundamental given.
[03:24] <ogra> if we *have* a team we should also have a channel and a mailing list for them 
[03:24] <ogra> but for now i think its better to keep them in one place still
[03:25] <RichEd> Yep. I am working on making the new space and interfaces. We must not use the new until the all the benefits of the existing can be linked in and supported.
[03:25] <ogra> look at the edubuntu-es/-de channels they are unused ... we did it in the wrong order
[03:25] <ogra> same for the edubuntu-es ML i think
[03:25] <RichEd> I've created a new channel for general education discussions: #ubuntu-education
[03:26] <highvoltage> according to mhz edubuntu-es has quite a strong community behind it, although I must admit I don't know what's happening on the -es mailing list
[03:26] <RichEd> Where we can have the non-technical people feeling free to chat ... but will not move any of our existing stuff there.
[03:26] <rodarvus> highvoltage, non technical people are just not fond of mailing lists.
[03:27] <RichEd> rodarvus: yep ... that's been a big topic of debate
[03:27] <rodarvus> they just have a different culture
[03:27] <highvoltage> rodarvus: true.
[03:27] <ogra> highvoltage, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel-es/ looks like there are only 5 ppl posting at all
[03:27] <ogra> and its nearly a year old
[03:27] <RichEd> that's why we will probably be going with drupal for the user space ... forums are more the novice user style
[03:27] <highvoltage> :/
[03:28] <ogra> #edubuntu-de has nearly turned into my private chatroom
[03:28] <highvoltage> pity pips1 isn't here today
[03:28] <ogra> so lets not split the community premature
[03:28] <highvoltage> +1
[03:28] <RichEd> pips1 is on leave with his wife, but he has being doing some sterling research.
[03:29] <RichEd> He was at a general "Education Conference" last week, and has been looking at communities very seriously, and in depth.
[03:29] <RichEd> So we will:
[03:29] <RichEd> 1. NOT dilute the enrgy and people here
[03:29] <RichEd> 2. NOT replace anything here unless it is proved better
[03:30] <RichEd> 3. NOT make bold announcements until we have actual traffic and real people supporting us
[03:30] <ogra> 4. not split until we have some momentum ?
[03:30] <ogra> right
[03:30] <RichEd> And all final decisions will be decided by the edubuntu meeting ... there is no unilateral action :)
[03:30] <ogra> great
[03:30] <finalbeta> Especially for graphics people, forums are more there way of doing things. beter integration of the community forums with groups. forums for art team or something, where they can organise contests. Will get people that normally are not involved, involved. Just a wild idea tho. 
[03:31] <RichEd> Hedgemage also has a lot of FOSS and Education experience, and has:
[03:31] <RichEd> 1. drupal skills
[03:31] <ogra> well, the ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu artteams operate only via the ubuntu-art ML
[03:31] <RichEd> 2. sensitivity to the tech personality profile and the user personality profile
[03:32] <RichEd> and 3. knows of how not to do it from some train smashes she has witnessed
[03:32] <RichEd> :) So there is a wide and varied and considered input before action.
[03:32] <ogra> it would be cool to have a forum gateway for tech issues to the edubuntu-devel list
[03:33] <ogra> so support could be given through the ML ... and we dont have weird workarounds in the forumks like in the ubuntu forums
[03:33] <ogra> since most developers wont read forums
[03:33] <RichEd> ogra, we can look at that for sure. bridges between the two worlds will make it easier
[03:33] <finalbeta> To me, the forums seems to be where you can best attract people to other concepts, like mailing lists. (since it is the first place users go when the get involved)
[03:34] <finalbeta> they*
[03:34] <willvdl> and if you're looking for a solution that has been solved
[03:34] <RichEd> Yep. The habit of the newbie users seem to be: browse the forums anonymously, lok for answers, post queastions only when comfortable
[03:34] <ogra> finalbeta, yep, i agree, but the fact that most devs dont read forums and most users do brings up weird solutions that can be avoided by getting the dev expetise into the forums somehow ...
[03:34] <RichEd> *look *questions
[03:34] <ogra> a forum/ML GW is one way to solve that
[03:35] <RichEd> We are also looking at a model where the users can debate in loose language ... and a moderator looks for good solutions which then become sticky posts, and make their way across to the wiki pages for FAQs.
[03:36] <ogra> right
[03:36] <RichEd> The GW ogra suggests will help with that. Even if ogra say corrects to me via email, and I then go fix the forum.
[03:37] <ogra> righrt
[03:37] <RichEd> So we preserve quality and accuracy from 100% accurate core (www.ubuntu.com www.edubuntu.org) outwards through wiki towards user space
[03:38] <RichEd> We know the user space will not be 100% accurate ... but we will reference only the www and wiki as officialy approved information
[03:38] <ogra> we're 40 mins over time ... and somehow slipped from art into community :)
[03:38] <ogra> (just a reminder)
[03:39] <RichEd> It was a more or less natural shift. And I think we are more or less done with both ?
[03:39] <ogra> me too
[03:39] <willvdl> uhuh
[03:39] <ogra> Management and Planning ?
[03:40] <RichEd> And Management is really about moving this stuff forwards. To avoid repeating, I'll give you the links on the wiki.
[03:40] <RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/education/planning <- this is the start of the plannig exercise ...
[03:40] <RichEd> *planning
[03:41] <ogra> highvoltage, next meeting is no EC meeting ;)
[03:41] <RichEd> A lot of it is draft, and incomplete, but it is being used as a living document as we buld the actual resources.
[03:41] <yarddog> i am yarddog, and i would like introduce myself, i have started a new ubuntu irc channel in #ubuntu-newmexico, i look forward to sharing any info in this group. thanks.
[03:41] <RichEd> *build
[03:41] <RichEd> Great yarddog : pop me an email riched@edubuntu.com
[03:42] <yarddog> ok
[03:42] <highvoltage> ogra: right :)
[03:42] <highvoltage> yarddog: great to meet you :)
[03:42] <RichEd> Comments welcome at any stage ... volunteers also.
[03:43] <RichEd> I'm also pulling together a page of all the potential resources we have available: wiki, web, mail lists, forums, bloggers etc.
[03:43] <ogra> ok, are we dont with the general agenda ?
[03:43] <RichEd> locos etc.
[03:44] <ogra> (can we move on to Edubuntu Council stuff ?)
[03:44] <RichEd> Yep. I'm done.
[03:45] <yarddog> RichEd, sent
[03:45] <RichEd> thanks yarddog :)
[03:45] <ogra> ok, we have one applicant on the meeting agenda 
[03:45] <yarddog> :P
[03:45] <ogra> RichEd, please introduce yourself with a three liner :)
[03:46] <RichEd> Richard Weideman: Education Programme Manager : Appointed by Mark July 12 - Full Time Canonical Employee
[03:47] <RichEd> Role: 1st line contact for all Education issues across all Ubuntu Products
[03:47] <RichEd> AIm: To produce a unified software solution and approach and support for Ubuntu's biggest niche sector : Education
[03:48] <willvdl> ++
[03:48] <ogra> whats the "habit change" point you list on your wikipage about ?
[03:49] <ogra> can you outline that a bit ?
[03:49] <RichEd> Oh ... how to make people practically change behavior: The Golden Rule : People will only change one habit at a time
[03:49] <ogra> habit of ?
[03:49] <RichEd> So if you need them to make a big change, you have to work out intermediate steps.
[03:49] <ogra> (which habits of whom do you want to change ?)
[03:50] <highvoltage> ogra: the habits of those who use outlook and IE! (I hope)
[03:50] <willvdl> and those who ask too many questions
[03:50] <RichEd> Any human habits ... established ways of doing things.
[03:50] <ogra> questions are never wrong ;)
[03:51] <RichEd> For example online grocery shopping ... is 2 changes for most people ... ordering online + get delivery of perishable goods at home ...
[03:51] <ogra> (the planning7overview link is broken btw)
[03:51] <highvoltage> My first encounter with RichEd was ~2 years ago when the HP country managers came to South Africa and did a tuXlab installation as team building.
[03:51] <ogra> s/7/\//
[03:51] <yarddog> RichEd, the message returned, <riched@edubuntu.com>:
[03:51] <yarddog> 82.211.81.145 does not like recipient
[03:51] <RichEd> So if you can break into 2 smaler steps, you have more chance of success
[03:52] <RichEd> riched@ubuntu.com <- sorry
[03:52] <yarddog> ok
[03:52] <highvoltage> I was already impressed by RichEd's organisational skills back then, I think he is a great asset for Ubuntu, and I think he's put his weight into it quite well recently.
[03:52] <ogra> right, but do you have specific habits and specific people in mid with that ? 
[03:52] <RichEd> That sort of thing.
[03:52] <rodarvus> its riched@ubuntu.com or riched@edubuntu.org (the second one, after this meeting, hopefully ;) )
[03:52] <ogra> i assume you dont want to change the habit of my mother how she buys milk for example :)
[03:53] <highvoltage> +1
[03:53] <RichEd> Unless she is buying Microsoft Milk which uses Child Labour ;)
[03:53] <yarddog> sent
[03:54] <RichEd> rodarvus: I need oliver to approve my desired email addresses on edubuntu.org - the ubuntu.com people won't listen to requests in this area ;)
[03:54] <highvoltage> RichEd: log a ticket on RT, it seems to work quite well
[03:54] <rodarvus> RichEd is my (and ogra's) manager at Canonical, as everyone knows. He has been doing an amazing organizational work Edubuntu, and Ubuntu Education in general. He also contributed (and is contributing) great plans and general work for the community. I agree with highvoltage, and consider him a great asset for Edubuntu!
[03:54] <ogra> right, that should work already, since JaneW already approved you :)
[03:55] <RichEd> janeW knows what's good for her ;)J
[03:55] <ogra> ok, i think we're all aware of RichEd contributions so far anyway 
[03:55] <ogra> the wikipage lists a bunch of efforts as well
[03:55] <rodarvus> ogra, testimonials are good & important. new members need to be accepted in a very transparent manner
[03:55] <ogra> so a +1 from my side here 
[03:55] <highvoltage> a +1 from my side once again
[03:55] <rodarvus> (and I believe this is the case here, as it always was)
[03:56] <ogra> ok, JaneW gave her approval already 
[03:56] <ogra> welcome RichEd !
[03:56] <highvoltage> RichEd: congrats :)
[03:56] <rodarvus> RichEd, welcome!
[03:56] <RichEd> Thank you very much ... it is not something I take lightly !
[03:57] <willvdl> woop
[03:57] <RichEd> Onwards and upwards towards a better future for global education.
[03:57] <ogra> i'd also like to propose that RichEd takes JaneW's place in the council
[03:57] <sivang> ogra: is an ubuntu memeber automatically an edubunu member? :-)
[03:57] <ogra> but i think that should be agreed on by the whole council
[03:57] <ogra> sivang, yes
[03:57] <sivang> ogra: ah, cool
[03:57] <rodarvus> no?
[03:58] <ogra> err
[03:58] <rodarvus> I thought an edubuntu member is automatically an ubuntu member, but not the other way
[03:58] <ogra> no the other way around indeed
[03:58] <ogra> rodarvus is right
[03:58] <sivang> ah, I see
[03:58] <RichEd> I second Oliver's proposal ...
[03:58] <RichEd> I think the naming is quite confusing ... can we dicuss quickly ?
[03:58] <rodarvus> I second ogra's proposal too (though I can't vote as I'm not EC member)
[03:59] <ogra> i propose we'll have an separate EC meeting to vote on that, i'll try to get the EC members together for that
[03:59] <RichEd> You all refer to it as the Edubuntu Council .. but the group is just Edubuntu-Members  ?
[03:59] <ogra> (else we'd have to wait 4 weeks again)
[04:00] <ogra> RichEd, the EC are the admins of Edubuntu-Members
[04:00] <sivang> ogra: what if stuff I'm doing for ubuntu is used for Edubuntu as well? for eample hubackup and systemclean up tool ?
[04:00] <ogra> we'll need to revoke Jane there and add you to the list of admins
[04:00] <sivang> ogra: can I use this as to claim Edubuntu membership?
[04:00] <RichEd> quote: There are 12 direct members of the "Edubuntu Members" team.
[04:00] <sivang> (well, actually, I hope they will be adopted by Edubuntu :-) )
[04:01] <ogra> sivang, if you have special interest to become edubuntu member, indeed 
[04:01] <sivang> ogra: I see, cool, thanks for the clarification.
[04:01] <yarddog> i have read the wiki some, how may one become a member of ubuntu?
[04:01] <RichEd> Is that the whole and entire Edubuntu Team ? of normal members ? 12 people ?
[04:01] <ogra> yes :/
[04:02] <ogra> note that many of the people helping edubuntu have already been ubuntu members before
[04:02] <ogra> so they didnt bother to apply for edubuntu membership specifically
[04:02] <RichEd> Shouldn't we have a seperate group: Edubuntu Council or Education Council and then oush for a sign-up drive for Edubuntu Members ?
[04:03] <RichEd> *push
[04:03] <ogra> well, the plan was that people active in edubuntu apply for membership in the edubuntu-members team
[04:03] <ogra> that move was only made to get the community council less busy
[04:04] <RichEd> Even if they are Ubuntu members, we need to get them to sign up for our group as well if they are intersted in education so that we can bang out mail shots to the people that care.
[04:04] <ogra> you cant mail launchpad teams
[04:04] <RichEd> yes, but you can at least find a member list ... we can take this offline, but it may be a good time to take a look from a step back
[04:04] <ogra> its really initally only to take load off the CC and make the CC meetings more quiet
[04:05] <RichEd> Okay ... I'm done for now ... any other matters ?
[04:05] <ogra> ok, so lets close that meeting now ... i'll care for a special EC meeting to make RichEd a EC member
[04:05] <willvdl> Folks, I must run. Need to wrap up some things before the close of business here
[04:05] <ogra> going once
[04:06] <ogra> going twice
[04:06] <ogra> adjourned
[04:06] <ogra> thanks all
[04:06] <finalbeta> lol
[04:06] <ogra> (that was 66 mins over time)
[04:06] <RichEd> thanks all ...
[04:06] <willvdl> ciao
[04:06] <RichEd> ogra: it was scheduled for 2 hours ?
[04:06] <ogra> we really need to cut down the general chatter more ....
[04:07] <ogra> we usually only schedule for 1h
[04:07] <ogra> or did someone change that ?
[04:07] <RichEd> it says 12:00-14:00
[04:07] <ogra> oh, thats news to me 
[04:08] <ogra> who asked for that ?
[04:08] <ogra> @schedule
[04:08] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 05 Oct 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Oct 21:00: Kubuntu | 10 Oct 20:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 20:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[04:08] <ogra> right, Ubugtu thinks as well its 2h ... all fine then
[04:08] <RichEd> rexbron: cutting down, we can look at moving some of the meeting points into a general meeting ... like the artwork etc. where we use the #edubuntu meeting for a reportback, but move discussions out to their own forum.
[04:09] <RichEd> sorry rexbron : no idea how autocomplete got to your nick ! ignore
[04:09] <ogra> well, we just need to not drift away in general chatter :)
[04:09] <RichEd> ogra:  cutting down, we can look at moving some of the meeting points into a general meeting ... like the artwork etc. where we use the #edubuntu meeting for a reportback, but move discussions out to their own forum.
[04:09] <ogra> we managed to hold our meetings in less than 1h before
[04:10] <RichEd> Chatter is good sometimes, but not too much in the tech space :)
[04:10] <ogra> so why shouldnt we be able to do that now :)
[04:10] <ogra> the topics didnt change 
[04:10] <ogra> i think i should lead more strict ... :)
[04:10] <RichEd> Point taken, but there will be growth in people and topics, so we may need to expand / divide.
[04:11] <ogra> i'll try that in the future
[04:11] <RichEd> I'm sure that the stuff that I am raising acounts fior a lot of the chatter :)
[04:11] <RichEd> *for
[04:11] <RichEd> The softer the issues, the more debate there seems to be.
[04:11] <ogra> well, lets try to get the general meeting time to 1h and a bit and then as we grow slowly extend it to 2h
[04:11] <RichEd> Okay :)
[04:12] <ogra> i'll try to stop the sidetracking in the next ones ... :)
[04:12] <RichEd> Perhaps we can make a back-to-back meeting arrangement ... 1 hour + 1 hour and people can decide if they want ot be in both ... I'll give it some thought.
[04:12] <RichEd> When you said the overview link above was broken ... from the page link or a direct load ?
[04:13] <ogra> from your page 
[04:13] <RichEd> okay ... will check them all now ... still getting the hang of wiki syntax
[04:17] <finalbeta> What actually happens with the above conversion now, have decisions been made, will stuff be implemented? hehe
[06:05] <sharms> @schedule chicago
[06:05] <Ubug2> Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Oct 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Oct 16:00: Kubuntu | 06 Oct 05:00: Accessibility Team | 10 Oct 15:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[06:30] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[06:30] <Ubug2> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 05 Oct 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Oct 23:00: Kubuntu | 06 Oct 12:00: Accessibility Team | 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[11:07] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[11:07] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 05 Oct 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Oct 23:00: Kubuntu | 06 Oct 12:00: Accessibility Team | 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team