[12:20] nite === orkid__ [n=mike@74.13.29.143] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:28] nite [12:33] _Sime: here? === lnxkde [n=lnxkde@206.248.91.29] has joined #kubuntu-devel === mbiebl [n=michael@dslb-084-056-226-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:43] well, about time for bed here...so you tomorrow === lnxkde [n=lnxkde@206.248.91.29] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:54] why does amarok's now playing display in the bottum left corner of the window not display properly? http://rkavanagh.homelinux.org/~ryan/amarok.png === ryanakca has a feeling that this is a known bug... [12:55] mmm, I think I've seen that before === ryanakca is looking threw https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-team/+packagebugs-search?field.distribution=ubuntu&field.sourcepackagename=amarok&search=Search === ash211 [n=andrew@user-1121nli.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:57] it was like that a while back, and then it got fixed, and then a week ago, it started happening again... haven't had time to file a bug report on it yet... [12:57] probably an easy fix type thing.. === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ash211 [n=andrew@user-1121nli.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Ingmar^ [n=ingmar@37.161-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #kubuntu-devel [01:54] Tonio_: about your wengo packet, because of its non interoperability with other sip services I would suggest to put it on the commercial repository. [01:55] IMHO, openwengo will derserve to be on universe only when it will be really open and compatible with something else than Wengo's services. [02:02] as we should do with amsn, with kmess and many others.... [02:02] I don't share this opinion [02:03] the code is really open, but you can't choose your network, or use it like any other SIP client, that's true... [02:04] but amsn is microsoft's network compatible only, kmess too, and apart from the jabber support, it the the same for kopete, all supported protocols are linked to one only network... === ash211 [n=andrew@user-1121nli.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:09] wengo is an interresting case because it's a commercial soft, but it is opensourced. [02:09] true [02:10] they are selling services, that you are not obliged to pay.... canonical does the same, mandriva too etc...... [02:10] I think it answers a phylosofical (and political) question [02:11] the point is it would be nice if the wengo network was compatible with standard sip, and that's not the case okay [02:11] but that's not very different from what kmess does [02:12] you can use the network without paying anything, in the same way other IM do [02:12] they are selling services, that you are not obliged to pay.... canonical does the same, mandriva too etc...... <-- but you can run any linux app on ubuntu or mandriva [02:12] but you need to have an account [02:12] that's not the same problem... [02:13] I would say you can use any wengo plugin with openwengo the same way you can run any linux app on ubuntu :) [02:13] that's different [02:13] it is for me... I don't like the closed politics of wengo :( [02:13] I can understand, but that's not a reason not to put it in universe [02:14] there is no difference between wengo and kmess on that point [02:14] wengophone is NOT an sip client [02:14] I think they need pressure on them to understand that closed politics is not good. [02:14] it is an IM that uses sip for its connections, that's different [02:14] interoperability is something very important in the open source community [02:15] goldenear: bah... [02:15] goldenear: if you consider it an sip client, it is closed [02:15] if you consider it an IM client, it is like any other one [02:15] I don't consider wengo an SIP client [02:15] that's the point... it's a wengo client, not a sip client (even if wengo uses sip) [02:16] I consider it an IM, with its own network, that is opensource and uses standard protocols internally [02:16] if we consider wengo like an IM client, I don't see where is the problem regarrding ethics [02:16] they don't claim to be an sip client [02:16] look at their wensite === Jucato [n=jucato@124.106.180.16] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:17] is it odd for a creator to patch an app? [02:18] assuming creator = writer of the code [02:18] it is just an IM, with a few paying services, like SMS or pc2phone and phone2pc [02:19] gnomefreak: ? I don't understand the question :) [02:19] a package creator fixes bugs in package or is that what the maintainer is for? [02:19] but the question is : can we ethicaly make the "promotion" of a such company by providing its application as if it was a normal opensource application ? [02:20] yes, because it is a "normal" opensource application [02:20] isn't it our role to put pressure on them for more interoperability ? [02:20] just that you have a "bonus", the optional paying services [02:20] if those services didn't exist, and you only had its network and text functionnalities, you wouldn't see any problem [02:21] Tonio_: hobbsee is creator of python-gnome (suprises the hell out of me :) ) but wondering if she would beable to fix it or should i look for a patch on net somewhere [02:21] consider it is free and hads "bonus" paying features [02:21] It will still have the interoperability issue [02:22] gnomefreak: she is ?????????????????? really ????? [02:22] yes lol [02:22] kiddin' !!! [02:22] I need to check this [02:22] Wengo is just like an opensourced skype ! [02:22] https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/python-gnome/+bug/60361 [02:22] goldenear: NO [02:22] Malone bug 60361 in python-gnome "fails to install" [Undecided,Confirmed] [02:22] interoperability with what ???????? [02:22] it says it there [02:22] amsn is not interoperable [02:22] k3b isn't too :) [02:22] it is NOT an sip client [02:23] amsn is not indeed [02:23] im gonna have to get up early to tease her about that one [02:23] goldenear: interoperable means "with something" [02:23] with what ? [02:23] k3b doesn't force you to buy their own brand of blank media ;) [02:23] gnomefreak: probably she can fix then [02:23] wengo doesn't too [02:23] you don't need to pay [02:24] with other sip providers [02:24] it is just a client (wengophone) compatible with a network (wengo) [02:24] where is the problem ????? [02:24] ok ill ping her in morning i feel this is a kind of show stopper for edgy and should be fixed [02:24] goldenear: wengo IS NOT AN SIP CLIENT !!!!!! [02:24] rahhhhhh [02:24] why should it be compatible with something it doesn't claim to be ? [02:24] is K3B compatible with avi files ? [02:24] it's not its purpose [02:25] same for wengo [02:25] if skype was an opensource app, would you put it in universe ? [02:25] you would like it to be an SIP client, but it is not, that's simple, no ? [02:25] yes I would too [02:25] of course [02:25] I don't mind it uses one network only [02:25] what's is the point ? === gnomefreak think i should change my plan either tease her OR ask for help with it lol [02:25] amsn, kmess do the same [02:26] kmess is not an sip client, nore is wengophone [02:26] ok, so the "commercial" repository shoud be named "closedsource" instead... [02:26] commercial is always closed source IMHO [02:26] that where my confusion is from [02:26] goldenear: yes [02:27] nop [02:27] opera isn't a commercial software, but it is in it [02:27] you can have an opensourced commercial app [02:27] ... like wengo [02:27] how do you define commercial? [02:27] goldenear: commercial repo is for applications that you cannot distribute [02:27] they are limited reguarding to their licence [02:27] and canonical is authorized to distribute them [02:28] then they go in that repo [02:28] they had to pay im sure [02:28] ok... I didn't understand that [02:28] gnomefreak: I don't think they have, but that's possible indeed [02:28] theorically, nvidia drivers should be in that same repo [02:28] true [02:28] I wonder why they aren't, in fact [02:28] ati also [02:28] true [02:28] Tonio_: too often needed/used [02:29] gnomefreak: probably indeed [02:29] most if not all video drivers are closed and should be there [02:29] how do you define commercial? <-- made by the entity who will get money with it [02:29] but as long as an app is gpl compliant, there is no reason not to put it in universe [02:29] and wengophone is gpl [02:30] ok then... [02:30] goldenear: my point being if canonical had to pay to ditribute them it would fit under commercial [02:30] gnomefreak: +1 [02:30] that's it [02:30] but don't forget it's not because it's gpl that it's not commercial ;) === gnomefreak still thinks java needs to redo thier license again [02:31] goldenear: commercial mean you "have to pay" === claydoh [n=clay@66.252.46.113] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:31] Tonio_: you should have no problem getting wengophone in universe [02:31] with wengo you can "pay bonus services if you cant" [02:31] that's different, sorry :) [02:31] its usable without paying [02:31] gnomefreak: it already is :) [02:31] ah [02:31] damn your fast [02:31] gnomefreak: but doesn't work in fact :) [02:31] goldenear: commercial mean you "have to pay" <-- and you have to pay to access certain functionnality of wengo [02:32] gnomefreak: that's an old version :) [02:32] ah [02:32] gnomefreak: I'm currently finishing the 2.0 package [02:32] cool [02:32] goldenear: and you HAVE TO PAY to get support for ubuntu :) [02:32] functionalities* [02:32] same problem [02:32] but ubuntu IS commercial [02:32] psssst you have to pay to use skype but is free not get [02:32] that's your definition :) [02:33] it's made a a company who wan't to make money :) [02:33] ubuntu=free [02:33] support = commercial [02:33] I don't have any problem with it [02:33] depends if you want to pay for it but with us here who the hell would want to :) [02:33] sometimes commercial = free [02:35] free to use not free to distribute though [02:35] msn is free... but it's commercial [02:35] it's the same for skype, java and many other things [02:35] goldenear: and you cant legally send it to anyone [02:35] java is a little differneet [02:36] java has a half breed licence atm [02:37] they call it an open license now but its really not all that open [02:37] gnomefreak: do you like skype ? [02:37] I don't [02:37] goldenear: nope [02:37] i use telephone [02:37] gnomefreak: lol [02:37] its easier and cheaper [02:37] and would you like it if it was open sourced ? [02:38] it wouldnt phase me either way but i know alot of people that wish it was [02:39] I probably would like it if it was opensource yes [02:39] the fact it uses its own network is not a problem in my opinion [02:40] but why not to prefer and promote real interoperable sandard as sip ? [02:40] goldenear: because you CANNOT do the same thing with sip and an IM [02:41] how about video, msn, yahoo an any other protocol ? [02:41] you want wengo to be something that it is not -> an sip client [02:41] it is not the same purpose [02:41] wengophone is an IM that as *optionnal* pc2phone functionnalities [02:41] sip can manage audio, video AND IM... it can even manage files transfer [02:42] goldenear: okay find me an sip client that does all of that, and I will package it :) [02:42] no pb [02:42] goldenear: I prefer jabber to msn [02:42] ekiga :) [02:43] but I don't think an msn client, opensource, is a problem for OSS or universe [02:43] it is just a matter of choice [02:43] goldenear: okay, then port it to qt if you want [02:44] why would I do it ? [02:44] I can perfectly run it like this [02:44] goldenear: okay but is that a reason to call wengophone "a problem" ? [02:44] talking about that, linux is a problem [02:44] firmwares in it aren't opensourced [02:44] it would need as many work than to make wengo a universal sip client... [02:45] apt is a problem, it is not interoperable with rpm [02:45] that's an other problem [02:45] an application has its purpose, and afaik, wengophone is gpl, good software, that's all I expect to package it [02:45] What I am defending is INTEROPERABILITY [02:46] goldenear: what does this mean ? [02:46] that's just a shame is OSS starts not to deal with it :( [02:46] jabber is okay [02:46] wengo network isn't [02:46] it is [02:47] amsn isn't [02:47] what's the problem ? [02:48] the day jabber supports sip and video, I would love it [02:48] but it doesn't [02:48] jabber is interoperable, but lacks functionalities [02:48] and thanks to google, because without them, it wouldn't even support audio [02:48] and OSS coders would better spend time and energy to write nice, well featured, user friendly jabber clients than working on project such as amsn or openwengo [02:48] goldenear: who would pay them for that ? [02:49] jabber can't support sip... it's an other different protocol [02:49] but there are gateways :) [02:49] the day jabber devs will admit video is important (because they DON'T want video), that'll probably change [02:49] at the moment, jabber is a problem in my opinion [02:49] because they refuse modernity [02:50] goldenear: who would pay them for that ? <- who pay the amsn coders ? [02:50] jabber devs will want video when google do it :) === gnomefreak has never used jabber. i dont even know how to make a name/email for it [02:50] goldenear: okay, so listening to you, in 2006, we should have 30 jabber clients and not even one msn client [02:51] okay, but that's not the way to help linux on desktop, sorry [02:51] Tonio_: im tempted to agree msn sucks [02:51] I also think it sucks [02:51] but as long as a client is opensource [02:51] msn = open? [02:51] and gives me the option to use that network on linux [02:51] I don't have any issue with that [02:51] 30 jabber clients... or less... but not only for linux... for win32 and macos [02:52] interoperability must be complete [02:52] (and other os of course) [02:53] goldenear: okay, let's go fight xine, mplayer, gstreamer, amsn, kopete, gaim....... [02:53] whats agood jabber gui ? [02:53] Tonio_: for your information jingle is almost ready to support video... it's just an other rtp stream anyway :) [02:53] besides gaim [02:53] jabbin [02:53] they all permit to use non interoperable stuff [02:53] ty [02:53] goldenear: shut down your computer [02:53] Tonio_: wait [02:53] your bios isn't free ! [02:54] jabbin would really need a package [02:54] how about one thats in the repos [02:54] http://www.jabbin.com/fr/ [02:54] your bios cost you 1000 USD more or less [02:54] of course I would like jabber to succeed [02:55] but is that a reason to boycott any other non interoperable network ? [02:55] jabbin should have an highter priority than wengo imho :) [02:55] then don't watch avi movies, boycott, only use theora [02:55] imho, yes [02:55] xvid is gpl === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:56] xvid or x264 is far better that theora and are gpl [02:56] yay theres a .deb :) [02:56] I would use them :) [02:56] goldenear: no pc3phone [02:56] only pc2pc, like kopete will do soon [02:56] ? [02:57] if you want to do pc2phone, use a real sip client such as twinkle :) [02:57] that's it [02:58] you can also setup an asterisk server to make to gateway [02:59] gnomefreak: you can get a jabber address (id) on jabber.org [02:59] ty [03:05] I go to sleep... [03:06] good night guys :) === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:07] Howdy [03:08] hi bddebian :) [03:09] Heya Jucato [03:14] does nick have to be in email form? [03:14] on jabber [03:14] that might help [03:19] ok next question what a good jabber server? [03:23] jabber server... I use talk.google.com iirc [03:24] gnomefreak: yep, talk.google.com:5223 === Jucato sees ryanakca and remembers to make the transcript for #ubuntu-classroom... === ryanakca sees #ubuntu-classroom and remembers to hunt down whoever is teaching the upcomming class... they haven't sent me their notes for their class [03:26] hehehe [03:27] hybrid... *wonders where he has gotten to of late* === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:28] hm.. haven't seen him for quite some time... [03:28] wb gnomefreak :) [03:28] (Funny you should mention Hybrid - I'm listening to their music atm.) [03:28] ty [03:29] heh [03:29] lol === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === freeflying|away [n=freeflyi@61.190.64.118] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:50] gnomefreak: goldenear misses that : http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3793&highlight=sip [03:50] hehe :) [03:53] and this one too http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3682&highlight=sip [03:53] he'll be happy then maybe... === NeoChaosX [n=nael@ppp-71-139-184-98.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === yuriy [n=yuriy@207-172-219-193.c3-0.frm-ubr3.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === yuriy_ [n=yuriy@207-172-219-193.c3-0.frm-ubr3.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === TheBearded1_ [n=cyle@CPE-24-163-150-201.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:55] hey all [04:56] Hobbsee: hiyeeee!!! [04:56] hey Jucato [04:57] how did your meeting go? [04:57] dunno, i wasnt at it [04:57] the logs will be there [04:57] heh [04:58] apparently we have a kubuntu testing team now === Hobbsee likes that idea, although she's not sure what it's doing yet [04:58] heh [04:58] they're testing gnome, of course. === Hobbsee might ask them to test a clean distupgrade, and a distupgrade from dapper with 3.5.4. or .5, if we backport that [04:58] lol [04:58] crimsun: :P [04:59] Hobbsee: guess what? Hawkwind and abattoir are both members, too :) [04:59] Jucato: yay :) [04:59] Jucato: when was this decided? [04:59] 3 days ago [04:59] oh, wait, memebers of what? [04:59] When mhb set it up. I was first to join :P [04:59] lol [04:59] sorry [04:59] ubuntu members, or members of the testing team? [04:59] ahhh... :) [04:59] Hobbsee: Kubuntu-Testers team [04:59] Kubuntu Testing Tean [04:59] Team* [05:00] gotcha [05:00] Hobbsee: We also have a new op in #Kubuntu, trappist [05:00] Hmmm, probably need to update !ops and/or !kops [05:01] nice, i heard that [05:01] update it :) === Hobbsee notes that she's very out of ctouch [05:01] Uh uh, I don't like highlighting everyones nick at once :P [05:01] I'm even more out of touch... [05:05] !ops-#kubuntu > Hawkwind [05:05] Thanks :) [05:05] Hawkwind: ubotu: takes queries, you know [05:06] Is everyone on that list still active/around at all ? [05:06] lol [05:06] ish [05:06] Hobbsee: Him and I clash from time to time so I leave him alone at night [05:06] no harm in not having them there [05:06] hehe [05:06] Ohh, I was just wondering for my own sake. I've seen half of them since I've been around [05:07] Probably more than that [05:07] !ops-#kubuntu > Jucato [05:07] 4 I don't know/never seen, and one I know is super super busy right now [05:07] i've seen most of them around [05:07] ubotu never ceases to amaze me [05:07] Sorry, I don't know anything about never ceases to amaze me - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi [05:08] lol [05:08] yeah, i havent seen jpatrick in a while [05:08] like, all of edgy. [05:09] Hobbsee: You can add editors to ubotu can't you....if so, could you add trappist ? [05:09] do i trust that what he says is right though? :P [05:09] yeah he has disappeared again [05:09] also, has he registered with the bot? [05:09] Hobbsee: why? do you trust what Hawkwind says is right? :P [05:09] because i've seen some of what Hawkwind says [05:10] er.. that was supposed to be a joke? [05:10] ah [05:10] Hobbsee: Oh he probably hasn't registered [05:10] brain's still a little asleep :P [05:10] I think I have [05:10] actually :) [05:10] Wait.....was I insulted and missed it! [05:10] Hah [05:10] hey trappist === Hawkwind Is very tired [05:10] lol [05:10] Ohhh, hey trappist [05:10] go to bed, Hawkwind :P [05:10] hey fellas. and Hobbsee. [05:11] Too early, wayyyyyy too early yet. It's only 10:11pm [05:12] is the bot aware of what channel he's in when somebody says something? that is, does !ops have one list for #ubuntu and another for #kubuntu? [05:12] trappist: yes. it can have channel specific replies [05:13] the reply for !repos in #kubuntu is different from the rest of the channels [05:13] good stuff. [05:13] is it Seveas's bot? [05:14] yep [05:14] trappist: correct. [05:14] does that mean he's written in python? [05:14] i think so [05:16] mhb: *waves* [05:16] trappist: He's based on supybot [05:16] so you're the mysterious leader of -testers [05:16] python seems to be taking over the world. or maybe it's just an ubuntu thing. either way I guess I'd better quit trying to hard to avoid it. [05:16] trappist: I think he might have used supybot as the base and just highly modified it. Not real sure [05:16] python *is* taking over the world :) [05:16] not familiar with supybot [05:17] trappist: same here. [05:17] I don't/can't code but I'm about to crack down and learn python as well. Especially http://djangoproject.com [05:17] there's a wiki page on how ubotu is run though [05:17] Jucato: well it better watch out. ruby's coming up behind it :) === Jucato wonders if something will come to unseat JS... [05:17] yeah that too [05:20] anybody happen to know who came up with /.hidden? it has some effects that a lot of people are disliking, and it's not obvious why they're happening. [05:20] Sime did iirc [05:20] apparently gnome (or nautilus) respects it too [05:21] I'm afraid to test that, since it likes to take over the desktop [05:21] I guess there should be a very huge/promiment announcement about some of the more "drastic" changes, like this and the UUID stuff in fstab [05:21] trappist: _Sime imbrandon and others [05:21] Jucato: hah yeah that too [05:21] and Tonio_ [05:21] Jucato: and, imho, a nice big piece on upstart [05:22] it took me a while to track down the right docs on upstart. before that I assumed it was an unnecessary wheel-reinvention, and now I'm in love with it. [05:22] trappist: well, upstart has been hitting the headlines more than these other two. and it's more prominent (it's mentioned in the release announcement) [05:22] trappist: you should read planet. you would have known if you'd read planet [05:22] trappist: .hidden files have been fixed today [05:22] and UUID people hsouldnt have to know about, because it should all "just work" === NeoChaosX [n=nael@ppp-71-139-184-98.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #kubuntu-devel ["Konversation] [05:22] Jucato: yeah, but it takes a fair amount of text to get across why we did it, and what it does [05:23] installation of those files via kds was not that greatly performed... should be better now [05:23] Tonio_: fixed how? far as I could tell, it was all behaving as designed [05:23] the KubuntuKDEMedia is a bit shorter, I guess [05:23] trappist: I'm talking about installation of those files [05:23] trappist: what else is wrong with them ? [05:24] Tonio_: just the effect they have, and the fact that it's hard to know where to look to change that behavior. what was changed about the installation? [05:24] trappist: they are now linked to /etc files, which avoids automatic overwritting during update [05:25] trappist: concerning the effects, I don't understand the point... [05:25] who is going in /usr or /etc with konq ? [05:25] the people who are playing with those files are doing it with the shell [05:25] someone who's run it with kdesu === Jucato whistles... [05:25] unless they just want to view the file, i guess [05:25] or using the Edit as Root service menu [05:25]