[12:20] <allee> nite
[12:28] <Lure> nite
[12:33] <aeig> _Sime: here?
[12:43] <kwwii> well, about time for bed here...so you tomorrow
[12:54] <ryanakca> why does amarok's now playing display in the bottum left corner of the window not display properly? http://rkavanagh.homelinux.org/~ryan/amarok.png
[12:55] <Riddell> mmm, I think I've seen that before
[12:57] <ryanakca> it was like that a while back, and then it got fixed, and then a week ago, it started happening again... haven't had time to file a bug report on it yet...
[12:57] <ryanakca> probably an easy fix type thing..
[01:54] <goldenear> Tonio_: about your wengo packet, because of its non interoperability with other sip services I would suggest to put it on the commercial repository.
[01:55] <goldenear> IMHO, openwengo will derserve to be on universe only when it will be really open and compatible with something else than Wengo's services.
[02:02] <Tonio_> as we should do with amsn, with kmess and many others....
[02:02] <Tonio_> I don't share this opinion
[02:03] <Tonio_> the code is really open, but you can't choose your network, or use it like any other SIP client, that's true...
[02:04] <Tonio_> but amsn is microsoft's network compatible only, kmess too, and apart from the jabber support, it the the same for kopete, all supported protocols are linked to one only network...
[02:09] <goldenear> wengo is an interresting case because it's a commercial soft, but it is opensourced.
[02:09] <Tonio_> true
[02:10] <Tonio_> they are selling services, that you are not obliged to pay.... canonical does the same, mandriva too etc......
[02:10] <goldenear> I think it answers a phylosofical (and political) question
[02:11] <Tonio_> the point is it would be nice if the wengo network was compatible with standard sip, and that's not the case okay
[02:11] <Tonio_> but that's not very different from what kmess does
[02:12] <Tonio_> you can use the network without paying anything, in the same way other IM do
[02:12] <goldenear> they are selling services, that you are not obliged to pay.... canonical does the same, mandriva too etc...... <-- but you can run any linux app on ubuntu or mandriva
[02:12] <Tonio_> but you need to have an account
[02:12] <Tonio_> that's not the same problem...
[02:13] <Tonio_> I would say you can use any wengo plugin with openwengo the same way you can run any linux app on ubuntu :)
[02:13] <Tonio_> that's different
[02:13] <goldenear> it is for me... I don't like the closed politics of wengo :(
[02:13] <Tonio_> I can understand, but that's not a reason not to put it in universe
[02:14] <Tonio_> there is no difference between wengo and kmess on that point
[02:14] <Tonio_> wengophone is NOT an sip client
[02:14] <goldenear> I think they need pressure on them to understand that closed politics is not good.
[02:14] <Tonio_> it is an IM that uses sip for its connections, that's different
[02:14] <goldenear> interoperability is something very important in the open source community
[02:15] <Tonio_> goldenear: bah...
[02:15] <Tonio_> goldenear: if you consider it an sip client, it is closed
[02:15] <Tonio_> if you consider it an IM client, it is like any other one
[02:15] <Tonio_> I don't consider wengo an SIP client
[02:15] <goldenear> that's the point... it's a wengo client, not a sip client (even if wengo uses sip)
[02:16] <Tonio_> I consider it an IM, with its own network, that is opensource and uses standard protocols internally
[02:16] <Tonio_> if we consider wengo like an IM client, I don't see where is the problem regarrding ethics
[02:16] <Tonio_> they don't claim to be an sip client
[02:16] <Tonio_> look at their wensite
[02:17] <gnomefreak> is it odd for a creator to patch an app?
[02:18] <gnomefreak> assuming creator = writer of the code
[02:18] <Tonio_> it is just an IM, with a few paying services, like SMS or pc2phone and phone2pc
[02:19] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: ? I don't understand the question :)
[02:19] <gnomefreak> a package creator fixes bugs in package or is that what the maintainer is for?
[02:19] <goldenear> but the question is : can we ethicaly make the "promotion" of a such company by providing its application as if it was a normal opensource application ?
[02:20] <Tonio_> yes, because it is a "normal" opensource application
[02:20] <goldenear> isn't it our role to put pressure on them for more interoperability ?
[02:20] <Tonio_> just that you have a "bonus", the optional paying services
[02:20] <Tonio_> if those services didn't exist, and you only had its network and text functionnalities, you wouldn't see any problem
[02:21] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: hobbsee is creator of python-gnome (suprises the hell out of me :) ) but wondering if she would beable to fix it or should i look for a patch on net somewhere
[02:21] <Tonio_> consider it is free and hads "bonus" paying features
[02:21] <goldenear> It will still have the interoperability issue
[02:22] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: she is ?????????????????? really ?????
[02:22] <gnomefreak> yes lol
[02:22] <Tonio_> kiddin' !!!
[02:22] <Tonio_> I need to check this
[02:22] <goldenear> Wengo is just like an opensourced skype !
[02:22] <gnomefreak> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/python-gnome/+bug/60361
[02:22] <Tonio_> goldenear: NO
[02:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 60361 in python-gnome "fails to install" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
[02:22] <Tonio_> interoperability with what ????????
[02:22] <gnomefreak> it says it there
[02:22] <Tonio_> amsn is not interoperable
[02:22] <Tonio_> k3b isn't too :)
[02:22] <Tonio_> it is NOT an sip client
[02:23] <goldenear> amsn is not indeed
[02:23] <gnomefreak> im gonna have to get up early to tease her about that one
[02:23] <Tonio_> goldenear: interoperable means "with something"
[02:23] <Tonio_> with what ?
[02:23] <goldenear> k3b doesn't force you to buy their own brand of blank media ;)
[02:23] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: probably she can fix then
[02:23] <Tonio_> wengo doesn't too
[02:23] <Tonio_> you don't need to pay
[02:24] <goldenear> with other sip providers
[02:24] <Tonio_> it is just a client (wengophone) compatible with a network (wengo)
[02:24] <Tonio_> where is the problem ?????
[02:24] <gnomefreak> ok ill ping her in morning i feel this is a kind of show stopper for edgy and should be fixed
[02:24] <Tonio_> goldenear: wengo IS NOT AN SIP CLIENT !!!!!!
[02:24] <Tonio_> rahhhhhh
[02:24] <Tonio_> why should it be compatible with something it doesn't claim to be ?
[02:24] <Tonio_> is K3B compatible with avi files ?
[02:24] <Tonio_> it's not its purpose
[02:25] <Tonio_> same for wengo
[02:25] <goldenear> if skype was an opensource app, would you put it in universe ?
[02:25] <Tonio_> you would like it to be an SIP client, but it is not, that's simple, no ?
[02:25] <Tonio_> yes I would too
[02:25] <Tonio_> of course
[02:25] <Tonio_> I don't mind it uses one network only
[02:25] <Tonio_> what's is the point ?
[02:25] <Tonio_> amsn, kmess do the same
[02:26] <Tonio_> kmess is not an sip client, nore is wengophone
[02:26] <goldenear> ok, so the "commercial" repository shoud be named "closedsource" instead...
[02:26] <gnomefreak> commercial is always closed source IMHO
[02:26] <goldenear> that where my confusion is from
[02:26] <Tonio_> goldenear: yes
[02:27] <goldenear> nop
[02:27] <Tonio_> opera isn't a commercial software, but it is in it
[02:27] <goldenear> you can have an opensourced commercial app
[02:27] <goldenear> ... like wengo
[02:27] <gnomefreak> how do you define commercial?
[02:27] <Tonio_> goldenear: commercial repo is for applications that you cannot distribute
[02:27] <Tonio_> they are limited reguarding to their licence
[02:27] <Tonio_> and canonical is authorized to distribute them
[02:28] <Tonio_> then they go in that repo
[02:28] <gnomefreak> they had to pay im sure
[02:28] <goldenear> ok... I didn't understand that
[02:28] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: I don't think they have, but that's possible indeed
[02:28] <Tonio_> theorically, nvidia drivers should be in that same repo
[02:28] <gnomefreak> true
[02:28] <Tonio_> I wonder why they aren't, in fact
[02:28] <gnomefreak> ati also
[02:28] <Tonio_> true
[02:28] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: too often needed/used
[02:29] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: probably indeed
[02:29] <gnomefreak> most if not all video drivers are closed and should be there
 how do you define commercial? <-- made by the entity who will get money with it
[02:29] <Tonio_> but as long as an app is gpl compliant, there is no reason not to put it in universe
[02:29] <Tonio_> and wengophone is gpl
[02:30] <goldenear> ok then...
[02:30] <gnomefreak> goldenear: my point being if canonical had to pay to ditribute them it would fit under commercial
[02:30] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: +1
[02:30] <Tonio_> that's it
[02:30] <goldenear> but don't forget it's not because it's gpl that it's not commercial ;)
[02:31] <Tonio_> goldenear: commercial mean you "have to pay"
[02:31] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: you should have no problem getting wengophone in universe
[02:31] <Tonio_> with wengo you can "pay bonus services if you cant"
[02:31] <Tonio_> that's different, sorry :)
[02:31] <gnomefreak> its usable without paying
[02:31] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: it already is :)
[02:31] <gnomefreak> ah
[02:31] <gnomefreak> damn your fast
[02:31] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: but doesn't work in fact :)
[02:31] <goldenear>  <Tonio_> goldenear: commercial mean you "have to pay" <-- and you have to pay to access certain functionnality of wengo
[02:32] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: that's an old version :)
[02:32] <gnomefreak> ah
[02:32] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: I'm currently finishing the 2.0 package
[02:32] <gnomefreak> cool
[02:32] <Tonio_> goldenear: and you HAVE TO PAY to get support for ubuntu :)
[02:32] <goldenear> functionalities*
[02:32] <Tonio_> same problem
[02:32] <goldenear> but ubuntu IS commercial
[02:32] <gnomefreak> psssst you have to pay to use skype but is free not get
[02:32] <Tonio_> that's your definition :)
[02:33] <goldenear> it's made a a company who wan't to make money :)
[02:33] <gnomefreak> ubuntu=free
[02:33] <Tonio_> support = commercial
[02:33] <goldenear> I don't have any problem with it
[02:33] <gnomefreak> depends if you want to pay for it but with us here who the hell would want to :)
[02:33] <goldenear> sometimes commercial = free
[02:35] <gnomefreak> free to use not free to distribute though
[02:35] <goldenear> msn is free... but it's commercial
[02:35] <goldenear> it's the same for skype, java and many other things
[02:35] <gnomefreak> goldenear: and you cant legally send it to anyone
[02:35] <gnomefreak> java is a little differneet
[02:36] <gnomefreak> java has a half breed licence atm
[02:37] <gnomefreak> they call it an open license now but its really not all that open
[02:37] <goldenear> gnomefreak: do you like skype ?
[02:37] <Tonio_> I don't
[02:37] <gnomefreak> goldenear: nope
[02:37] <gnomefreak> i use telephone
[02:37] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: lol
[02:37] <gnomefreak> its easier and cheaper
[02:37] <goldenear> and would you like it if it was open sourced ?
[02:38] <gnomefreak> it wouldnt phase me either way but i know alot of people that wish it was
[02:39] <Tonio_> I probably would like it if it was opensource yes
[02:39] <Tonio_> the fact it uses its own network is not a problem in my opinion
[02:40] <goldenear> but why not to prefer and promote real interoperable sandard as sip ?
[02:40] <Tonio_> goldenear: because you CANNOT do the same thing with sip and an IM
[02:41] <Tonio_> how about video, msn, yahoo an any other protocol ?
[02:41] <Tonio_> you want wengo to be something that it is not -> an sip client
[02:41] <Tonio_> it is not the same purpose
[02:41] <Tonio_> wengophone is an IM that as *optionnal* pc2phone functionnalities
[02:41] <goldenear> sip can manage audio, video AND IM... it can even manage files transfer
[02:42] <Tonio_> goldenear: okay find me an sip client that does all of that, and I will package it :)
[02:42] <Tonio_> no pb
[02:42] <Tonio_> goldenear: I prefer jabber to msn
[02:42] <goldenear> ekiga :)
[02:43] <Tonio_> but I don't think an msn client, opensource, is a problem for OSS or universe
[02:43] <Tonio_> it is just a matter of choice
[02:43] <Tonio_> goldenear: okay, then port it to qt if you want
[02:44] <goldenear> why would I do it ?
[02:44] <goldenear> I can perfectly run it like this
[02:44] <Tonio_> goldenear: okay but is that a reason to call wengophone "a problem" ?
[02:44] <Tonio_> talking about that, linux is a problem
[02:44] <Tonio_> firmwares in it aren't opensourced
[02:44] <goldenear> it would need as many work than to make wengo a universal sip client...
[02:45] <Tonio_> apt is a problem, it is not interoperable with rpm
[02:45] <goldenear> that's an other problem
[02:45] <Tonio_> an application has its purpose, and afaik, wengophone is gpl, good software, that's all I expect to package it
[02:45] <goldenear> What I am defending is INTEROPERABILITY
[02:46] <Tonio_> goldenear: what does this mean ?
[02:46] <goldenear> that's just a shame is OSS starts not to deal with it :(
[02:46] <Tonio_> jabber is okay
[02:46] <Tonio_> wengo network isn't
[02:46] <goldenear> it is
[02:47] <Tonio_> amsn isn't
[02:47] <Tonio_> what's the problem ?
[02:48] <Tonio_> the day jabber supports sip and video, I would love it
[02:48] <Tonio_> but it doesn't
[02:48] <Tonio_> jabber is interoperable, but lacks functionalities
[02:48] <Tonio_> and thanks to google, because without them, it wouldn't even support audio
[02:48] <goldenear> and OSS coders would better spend time and energy to write nice, well featured, user friendly jabber clients than working on project such as amsn or openwengo
[02:48] <Tonio_> goldenear: who would pay them for that ?
[02:49] <goldenear> jabber can't support sip... it's an other different protocol
[02:49] <goldenear> but there are gateways :)
[02:49] <Tonio_> the day jabber devs will admit video is important (because they DON'T want video), that'll probably change
[02:49] <Tonio_> at the moment, jabber is a problem in my opinion
[02:49] <Tonio_> because they refuse modernity
[02:50] <goldenear> goldenear: who would pay them for that ? <- who pay the amsn coders ?
[02:50] <goldenear> jabber devs will want video when google do it :)
[02:50] <Tonio_> goldenear: okay, so listening to you, in 2006, we should have 30 jabber clients and not even one msn client
[02:51] <Tonio_> okay, but that's not the way to help linux on desktop, sorry
[02:51] <gnomefreak> Tonio_: im tempted to agree msn sucks
[02:51] <Tonio_> I also think it sucks
[02:51] <Tonio_> but as long as a client is opensource
[02:51] <gnomefreak> msn = open?
[02:51] <Tonio_> and gives me the option to use that network on linux
[02:51] <Tonio_> I don't have any issue with that
[02:51] <goldenear> 30 jabber clients... or less... but not only for linux... for win32 and macos
[02:52] <goldenear> interoperability must be complete
[02:52] <goldenear> (and other os of course)
[02:53] <Tonio_> goldenear: okay, let's go fight xine, mplayer, gstreamer, amsn, kopete, gaim.......
[02:53] <gnomefreak> whats  agood jabber gui ?
[02:53] <goldenear> Tonio_: for your information jingle is almost ready to support video... it's just an other rtp stream anyway :)
[02:53] <gnomefreak> besides gaim
[02:53] <goldenear> jabbin
[02:53] <Tonio_> they all permit to use non interoperable stuff
[02:53] <gnomefreak> ty
[02:53] <Tonio_> goldenear: shut down your computer
[02:53] <goldenear> Tonio_: wait
[02:53] <Tonio_> your bios isn't free !
[02:54] <goldenear> jabbin would really need a package
[02:54] <gnomefreak> how about one thats in the repos
[02:54] <goldenear> http://www.jabbin.com/fr/
[02:54] <gnomefreak> your bios cost you 1000 USD more or less
[02:54] <Tonio_> of course I would like jabber to succeed
[02:55] <Tonio_> but is that a reason to boycott any other non interoperable network ?
[02:55] <goldenear> jabbin should have an highter priority than wengo imho :)
[02:55] <Tonio_> then don't watch avi movies, boycott, only use theora
[02:55] <goldenear> imho, yes
[02:55] <goldenear> xvid is gpl
[02:56] <goldenear> xvid or x264 is far better that theora and are gpl
[02:56] <gnomefreak> yay theres a .deb :)
[02:56] <goldenear> I would use them :)
[02:56] <Tonio_> goldenear: no pc3phone
[02:56] <Tonio_> only pc2pc, like kopete will do soon
[02:56] <goldenear> ?
[02:57] <goldenear> if you want to do pc2phone, use a real sip client such as twinkle :)
[02:57] <Tonio_> that's it
[02:58] <goldenear> you can also setup an asterisk server to make to gateway
[02:59] <goldenear> gnomefreak: you can get a jabber address (id) on jabber.org
[02:59] <gnomefreak> ty
[03:05] <goldenear> I go to sleep...
[03:06] <goldenear> good night guys :)
[03:07] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:08] <Jucato> hi bddebian :)
[03:09] <bddebian> Heya Jucato
[03:14] <gnomefreak> does nick have to be in email form?
[03:14] <gnomefreak> on jabber
[03:14] <gnomefreak> that might help
[03:19] <gnomefreak> ok next question what a good jabber server?
[03:23] <ryanakca> jabber server... I use talk.google.com iirc
[03:24] <ryanakca> gnomefreak: yep, talk.google.com:5223
[03:26] <Jucato> hehehe
[03:27] <ryanakca> hybrid... *wonders where he has gotten to of late*
[03:28] <Jucato> hm.. haven't seen him for quite some time...
[03:28] <Jucato> wb gnomefreak :)
[03:28] <crimsun> (Funny you should mention Hybrid - I'm listening to their music atm.)
[03:28] <gnomefreak> ty
[03:29] <Jucato> heh
[03:29] <ryanakca> lol
[03:50] <Tonio_> gnomefreak: goldenear misses that : http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3793&highlight=sip
[03:50] <Tonio_> hehe :)
[03:53] <Tonio_> and this one too http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3682&highlight=sip
[03:53] <Tonio_> he'll be happy then maybe...
[04:55] <Hobbsee> hey all
[04:56] <Jucato> Hobbsee: hiyeeee!!!
[04:56] <Hobbsee> hey Jucato 
[04:57] <Jucato> how did your meeting go?
[04:57] <Hobbsee> dunno, i wasnt at it
[04:57] <Hobbsee> the logs will be there
[04:57] <Jucato> heh
[04:58] <Hobbsee> apparently we have a kubuntu testing team now
[04:58] <Jucato> heh
[04:58] <crimsun> they're testing gnome, of course.
[04:58] <Jucato> lol
[04:58] <Hobbsee> crimsun: :P
[04:59] <Jucato> Hobbsee: guess what? Hawkwind and abattoir are both members, too :)
[04:59] <Hobbsee> Jucato: yay :)
[04:59] <Hobbsee> Jucato: when was this decided?
[04:59] <Hawkwind> 3 days ago
[04:59] <Hobbsee> oh, wait, memebers of what?
[04:59] <Hawkwind> When mhb set it up.  I was first to join :P
[04:59] <Jucato> lol
[04:59] <Jucato> sorry
[04:59] <Hobbsee> ubuntu members, or members of the testing team?
[04:59] <Hobbsee> ahhh... :)
[04:59] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: Kubuntu-Testers team
[04:59] <Jucato> Kubuntu Testing Tean
[04:59] <Jucato> Team*
[05:00] <Hobbsee> gotcha
[05:00] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: We also have a new op in #Kubuntu, trappist
[05:00] <Hawkwind> Hmmm, probably need to update !ops and/or !kops
[05:01] <Hobbsee> nice, i heard that
[05:01] <Hobbsee> update it :)
[05:01] <Hawkwind> Uh uh, I don't like highlighting everyones nick at once :P
[05:01] <Jucato> I'm even more out of touch... 
[05:05] <Hobbsee> !ops-#kubuntu > Hawkwind 
[05:05] <Hawkwind> Thanks :)
[05:05] <Hobbsee> Hawkwind: ubotu: takes queries, you know
[05:06] <Hawkwind> Is everyone on that list still active/around at all ?
[05:06] <Jucato> lol
[05:06] <Hobbsee> ish
[05:06] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: Him and I clash from time to time so I leave him alone at night
[05:06] <Hobbsee> no harm in not having them there
[05:06] <Hobbsee> hehe
[05:06] <Hawkwind> Ohh, I was just wondering for my own sake.  I've seen half of them since I've been around
[05:07] <Hawkwind> Probably more than that
[05:07] <Jucato> !ops-#kubuntu > Jucato
[05:07] <Hawkwind> 4 I don't know/never seen, and one I know is super super busy right now
[05:07] <Hobbsee> i've seen most of them around
[05:07] <Jucato> ubotu never ceases to amaze me
[05:07] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about never ceases to amaze me - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[05:08] <Jucato> lol
[05:08] <Hobbsee> yeah, i havent seen jpatrick in a while
[05:08] <Hobbsee> like, all of edgy.
[05:09] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: You can add editors to ubotu can't you....if so, could you add trappist ?
[05:09] <Hobbsee> do i trust that what he says is right though?  :P
[05:09] <Jucato> yeah he has disappeared again
[05:09] <Hobbsee> also, has he registered with the bot?
[05:09] <Jucato> Hobbsee: why? do you trust what Hawkwind says is right? :P
[05:09] <Hobbsee> because i've seen some of what Hawkwind says
[05:10] <Jucato> er.. that was supposed to be a joke?
[05:10] <Hobbsee> ah
[05:10] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: Oh he probably hasn't registered
[05:10] <Hobbsee> brain's still a little asleep :P
[05:10] <trappist> I think I have
[05:10] <trappist> actually :)
[05:10] <Hawkwind> Wait.....was I insulted and missed it!
[05:10] <Hawkwind> Hah
[05:10] <Hobbsee> hey trappist 
[05:10] <Jucato> lol
[05:10] <Hawkwind> Ohhh, hey trappist
[05:10] <Hobbsee> go to bed, Hawkwind :P
[05:10] <trappist> hey fellas.  and Hobbsee.
[05:11] <Hawkwind> Too early, wayyyyyy too early yet.  It's only 10:11pm
[05:12] <trappist> is the bot aware of what channel he's in when somebody says something?  that is, does !ops have one list for #ubuntu and another for #kubuntu?
[05:12] <Jucato> trappist: yes. it can have channel specific replies
[05:13] <Jucato> the reply for !repos in #kubuntu is different from the rest of the channels
[05:13] <trappist> good stuff.
[05:13] <trappist> is it Seveas's bot?
[05:14] <Hobbsee> yep
[05:14] <Hobbsee> trappist: correct.
[05:14] <trappist> does that mean he's written in python?
[05:14] <Hobbsee> i think so
[05:16] <Hobbsee> mhb: *waves*
[05:16] <Hawkwind> trappist: He's based on supybot
[05:16] <Hobbsee> so you're the mysterious leader of -testers
[05:16] <trappist> python seems to be taking over the world.  or maybe it's just an ubuntu thing.  either way I guess I'd better quit trying to hard to avoid it.
[05:16] <Hawkwind> trappist: I think he might have used supybot as the base and just highly modified it.  Not real sure
[05:16] <Jucato> python *is* taking over the world :)
[05:16] <trappist> not familiar with supybot
[05:17] <Hobbsee> trappist: same here.
[05:17] <Hawkwind> I don't/can't code but I'm about to crack down and learn python as well.  Especially http://djangoproject.com
[05:17] <Hobbsee> there's a wiki page on how ubotu is run though
[05:17] <trappist> Jucato: well it better watch out.  ruby's coming up behind it :)
[05:17] <Jucato> yeah that too
[05:20] <trappist> anybody happen to know who came up with /.hidden?  it has some effects that a lot of people are disliking, and it's not obvious why they're happening.
[05:20] <Jucato> Sime did iirc
[05:20] <trappist> apparently gnome (or nautilus) respects it too
[05:21] <trappist> I'm afraid to test that, since it likes to take over the desktop
[05:21] <Jucato> I guess there should be a very huge/promiment announcement about some of the more "drastic" changes, like this and the UUID stuff in fstab
[05:21] <Hobbsee> trappist: _Sime imbrandon and others
[05:21] <trappist> Jucato: hah yeah that too
[05:21] <Hobbsee> and Tonio_ 
[05:21] <trappist> Jucato: and, imho, a nice big piece on upstart
[05:22] <trappist> it took me a while to track down the right docs on upstart.  before that I assumed it was an unnecessary wheel-reinvention, and now I'm in love with it.
[05:22] <Jucato> trappist: well, upstart has been hitting the headlines more than these other two. and it's more prominent (it's mentioned in the release announcement)
[05:22] <Hobbsee> trappist: you should read planet.  you would have known if you'd read planet
[05:22] <Tonio_> trappist: .hidden files have been fixed today
[05:22] <Hobbsee> and UUID people hsouldnt have to know about, because it should all "just work"
[05:22] <trappist> Jucato: yeah, but it takes a fair amount of text to get across why we did it, and what it does
[05:23] <Tonio_> installation of those files via kds was not that greatly performed... should be better now
[05:23] <trappist> Tonio_: fixed how?  far as I could tell, it was all behaving as designed
[05:23] <Jucato> the KubuntuKDEMedia is a bit shorter, I guess
[05:23] <Tonio_> trappist: I'm talking about installation of those files
[05:23] <Tonio_> trappist: what else is wrong with them ?
[05:24] <trappist> Tonio_: just the effect they have, and the fact that it's hard to know where to look to change that behavior.  what was changed about the installation?
[05:24] <Tonio_> trappist: they are now linked to /etc files, which avoids automatic overwritting during update
[05:25] <Tonio_> trappist: concerning the effects, I don't understand the point...
[05:25] <Tonio_> who is going in /usr or /etc with konq ?
[05:25] <Tonio_> the people who are playing with those files are doing it with the shell
[05:25] <Hobbsee> someone who's run it with kdesu
[05:25] <Hobbsee> unless they just want to view the file, i guess
[05:25] <Jucato> or using the Edit as Root service menu
[05:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: then they just have to check "display hidden files"
[05:26] <trappist> Tonio_: well I don't use konq much at all, but there was a guy in #kubuntu today flipping out about it. 
[05:26] <Tonio_> that's not very complicated
[05:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: true that
[05:26] <Jucato> or the Preview with Embedded Text Editor :)
[05:26] <Tonio_> the point is my mother doesn't need to see those files
[05:26] <Tonio_> and if I really want to, I would simply check show hidden and that's it
[05:26] <Tonio_> third : using konq as root is VERY dangerous
[05:26] <Jucato> maybe a note/introduction to this should have been put in the release notes?
[05:26] <trappist> Tonio_: I actually looked for exactly that option and didn't manage to find it
[05:27] <Tonio_> trappist: show hidden files ?
[05:27] <Jucato> trappist: View > Show Hidden Files?
[05:27] <trappist> yeah
[05:27] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: what would it take to get a toggle thing for show hidden files?
[05:27] <Tonio_> in konq, "view / show hidden files"
[05:27] <trappist> Jucato: I was looking through the konq config interface
[05:27] <Tonio_> is it that complicated ? honnestly...
[05:27] <Jucato> trappist: ah...
[05:27] <Jucato> well if they didn't know that .hidden controlled what was hidden, it would be confusing at first probably
[05:28] <Hobbsee> they dont really need to know how files are hidden - just that they can hide and unhide them
[05:28] <trappist> come to think of it, I knew of that option for showing .files but this was different - and I for one would want to show /dirs and not .files
[05:28] <trappist> Hobbsee: I disagree, actually
[05:28] <Tonio_> Jucato: as much confusing as the full view for my mother :)
[05:28] <Tonio_> they will learn, that's all, and that's not very complicated
[05:28] <Jucato> trappist: it would still display the /dirs even if they are not /.dirs
[05:29] <trappist> Jucato: right, but it would also display .files, even if I don't want it to
[05:29] <trappist> it's a pain to browse my home dir with all the .files there
[05:29] <trappist> but I'd still want to see the /dirs
[05:29] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: wengophone just finished to build....... it took my all the day to package this shit !
[05:29] <Jucato> trappist: but if you're only browsing in / (root), how many .files are there?
[05:29] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: hehe.  fun
[05:29] <Tonio_> trappist: there is no perfect solution
[05:30] <trappist> Jucato: who only browses in /?
[05:30] <Tonio_> trappist: but this one looks quite acceptable
[05:30] <Jucato> afaik, .hidden only controls what's hidden in / 
[05:30] <Hawkwind> We should have an option to show .hidden files, .hidden directories, both, or none
[05:30] <trappist> Tonio_: to me, the perfect solution existed before /.hidden came along
[05:30] <Tonio_> not complicated to go back and better for my mother
[05:30] <Jucato> the ones under ~/ are still normal .dirs/
[05:30] <Tonio_> trappist: according to you, does your mother need to learn posix structure ?
[05:31] <Tonio_> trappist: ever though why is osx that appreciated ? because Joe doesn't have to manage with the system
[05:31] <Tonio_> it is hidden, and that's fine
[05:31] <trappist> Tonio_: one of the really confusing things for new linux users is the way the filesystem's put together.  where's the C drive etc.  we have very nice docs that explain it, and I think /.hidden only confuses matters.
[05:31] <Tonio_> the problem is that geeks generally don't accept simplification
[05:31] <Tonio_> is you want a geek system that refuses simplification, install slack or gentoo, that's not kubuntu goal
[05:32] <Jucato> I guess the biggest confusion for some users (not the "your mother" type of users) would be the discrepancy/difference between navigating in CLI and in GUI. at most it would be a shock to some intermediate level users
[05:32] <trappist> Tonio_: I love simplification, I just don't usually like the idea of my system protecting me from myself (except where it's obvious)
[05:32] <Tonio_> trappist: it is not protection! you always can perform a sudo rm -rf /
[05:32] <Hobbsee> trappist: no, that's called arbitary hiding of files or folders which you cant get to unless you type their name in the box.
[05:32] <trappist> one of the first things I do on a windows box is get rid of all the hide file extensions, hide system files, etc.
[05:32] <Tonio_> it is a matter of "visual simplification"
[05:33] <Jucato> but Linux thrives on hidden files/folders :)
[05:33] <Hawkwind> But it shouldn't
[05:33] <trappist> but Linux and Unix have gotten along fine for decades exposing the root level dirs to the user
[05:34] <Jucato> Hawkwind: even in the $HOME directories?
[05:34] <Hawkwind> Jucato: There should be options of how to show .hidden files.  As I stated above
[05:35] <Hobbsee> i do have a slight concern over $user going "oh no!  where's my file system!"
[05:35] <Hawkwind> If you want to see just .hidden files, then select it, just .hidden directories select it, or you can show both, or none
[05:35] <Jucato> Hawkwind: are you talking about the hidden files (.file) or the ".hidden" file itself?
[05:35] <Hobbsee> also, we probably want to make sure that this is easily refersable, like the konqi changes should be.
[05:35] <Hawkwind> It's always been you show *every* .hidden file/directory in the world, or none
[05:35] <Jucato> Hobbsee: me too. we could probably help prevent that with proper information before releasing Edgy
[05:36] <Hawkwind> As trappist stated, the filesystem is the #1 most confusing thing to any and all linux users.  No matter how new or old they are to using Linux
[05:36] <Jucato> heh
[05:36] <trappist> even my mother, if she had the time, might be interested in learning some of the nuts and bolts behind what she sees.  people love to learn.  and I think /.hidden complicates that process for new users who don't even know there's anything hidden.
[05:36] <Tonio_> trappist: 90% people don't give a shit at this.......
[05:36] <Hawkwind> trappist: I agree 150%
[05:36] <Tonio_> come on !! be realistic !
[05:36] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: Yes they do
[05:36] <Hawkwind> People want to know where files are to configure their apps
[05:36] <Hawkwind> It's asked all day everyday
[05:36] <trappist> Tonio_: 90% of those won't even know.  but neither will the other 10%, and they would like to know.
[05:36] <Jucato> problem is we can't really be sure about these figures
[05:37] <Tonio_> who here as been interested in learning the C:\windows structure ?
[05:37] <Tonio_> honnestly.......
[05:37] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: people who modify the config files.  :P
[05:37] <trappist> Jucato: way I see it, it's a solution without a problem.  who was complaining that they could see /usr?
[05:38] <Jucato> trappist: I've seen some people complain about so many folders in Linux
[05:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: they do in shell 99% time
[05:38] <Jucato> I've seen some people ask time and time again where their installed programs go
[05:38] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: what would be the problem in handling it as we do system settings?   a general mode, started by default, and then an advanced mode, which shows the old version?
[05:38] <Hobbsee> that system settings stuff is really neat
[05:38] <Hawkwind> A lot more people edit files via konqueror/krusader or other GUI file browsers than everyone realizes actually
[05:38] <Hobbsee> also, you can just type /etc/ in the bar if you want to go there
[05:39] <trappist> Jucato: then support for this is great.  even for me.  I love to have the *ability* to hide something without renaming it.  but if it's hidden by default, I don't even know there's anything hidden, and there might be something in there I want to find.
[05:39] <Jucato> but showing the old version requires you to modify /.hidden 
[05:39] <Hobbsee> Hawkwind: after using kdesu
[05:39] <Hawkwind> Most people don't know about kdesu, most new users that is
[05:40] <Jucato> Hawkwind: I personally don't favor launching Konqueror as root. the only reason I could accept would be moving/copy files graphically
[05:40] <Jucato> well, most users don't know about sudo either
[05:40] <Hawkwind> They pull up konqueror and want to open a file, regardless where the file lies
[05:40] <trappist> Jucato: most ubuntu users do, soon enough :)
[05:40] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the problem is that konqueror is incredibly hard to patch
[05:40] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I don't either.  I'm not really referring to launching konqueror as root, but for the editing of any .hidden file
[05:40] <Jucato> well, we're in Kubuntu :)
[05:40] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: feel free to do it, but I won't :)
[05:41] <trappist> I'll do it
[05:41] <Jucato> Hawkwind: we're not referring to hidden files per se. but to /.hidden
[05:41] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ahh okay
[05:41] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I understand that.  The whole .hidden file/directory thing as a whole needs to be changed to have more/better options for the user.  Especially with the new user in mind
[05:42] <Hobbsee> time for work
[05:42] <Jucato> Hawkwind: probably, but the issue here is really more about the / directories being hidden (usr, var, etc), which are controlled by /.hidden
[05:42] <trappist> I love the feature.  I just don't like the default behavior - when something's hidden by default, you might never know it's there, even when you're specifically looking for it.
[05:43] <Jucato> trappist: maybe the point is that you shouldn't even know that it's there unless you're supposed to know about it?
[05:43] <Jucato> something along the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" thinking?
[05:43] <trappist> Jucato: I don't really agree with that, but even if it's true, say you know about it and you're looking for, say, /etc/apt/sources.list, and there's no /etc
[05:44] <trappist> Jucato: don't fix it if it ain't broke is a big reason I don't like this - what was broke?
[05:44] <Jucato> I guess that will depend on who's giving the instructions?
[05:44] <trappist> Jucato: yeah, some people will say open Konsole, cd /etc/apt, sudoedit sources.list, and some people will say edit /etc/apt/sources.list
[05:44] <Jucato> what was broke? users getting confused or doing stuff they shouldn't because they have "easy" access to / stuff?
[05:45] <Jucato> when they should be saying "kdesu kate /etc/apt/sources.list" right?
[05:45] <trappist> I don't hear a lot of stories about that, and at any rate, the hidden stuff is root-owned and not screwupable without going to a little bit of trouble
[05:46] <Jucato> well, the capabilities of the human mind (or ignorance) know no bounds :)
[05:46] <Jucato> I think I've seen an instance where someone enable the root user without even knowing how to install using apt-get
[05:47] <trappist> another part of my distaste for it is this: we are often too willing to confuse or piss off veteran users in favor of a questionable benefit to new users.  like dropping vim from the install cd.
[05:47] <Jucato> or much less about the directories...
[05:47] <Jucato> vim was dropped?
[05:47] <trappist> yeah, it's like tinyvim or something like that now
[05:47] <Jucato> in Edgy?
[05:47] <Hawkwind> Sadly enough
[05:47] <Hawkwind> IMO vim should never be dropped from a default install
[05:48] <trappist> because seriously, who uses vim, right?  it's all about the nano and the gedit.
[05:48] <Jucato> well emacs isn't there either, so...
[05:48] <Hawkwind> Because there are enough GUI editors by default
[05:48] <trappist> emacs was never guaranteed to be on any and every *nix box
[05:48] <Hawkwind> Besides, Emacs is a good OS that'll get a decent editor one day :P
[05:48] <Jucato> well, maybe the point is that, for new users, they would be less confused and for old timers, they'd be informed of the steps to work around it
[05:48] <Tonio_> trappist: you hate hidden  things ?
[05:49] <Tonio_> do you display .* files in your profile with konq ?
[05:49] <Jucato> I still say that stick to this new system, but really focus on disseminating info about it
[05:49] <Jucato> maybe even creating a sort of "hype" like upstart...
[05:49] <Tonio_> I do, because displaying them looks messy and I generally don't have to deal with them
[05:49] <Hawkwind> Stick to the old system and let it continue like it has for years
[05:50] <Jucato> Hawkwind: Edgy is about trying new stuff right?
[05:50] <Hawkwind> Some things just shouldn't be changed.  Like removing vim from a default install of any linux distro
[05:50] <Jucato> we can't always stick to the old system. sometimes we have to take risks, too. 
[05:50] <Hawkwind> Jucato: That's true.  But some things are just best left untouched
[05:51] <Hawkwind> You watch, everyone is going to complain about this .hidden stuff.  It's guaranteed it'll happen
[05:51] <Jucato> well not "everyone"
[05:51] <Jucato> you can't please everyone
[05:51] <Hawkwind> The most famous question in #Kubuntu will be:  I've got konqueror open and it appears that my /var /etc and most everything else is missing
[05:51] <Jucato> (and you can't piss everyone off too)
[05:51] <Hawkwind> Yet my system boots and runs...what should I do
[05:51] <trappist> Jucato: I don't know that anyone was complaining before
[05:51] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: as everyone complained when we removed kcontrol, because "one must not touch to kcontrol"
[05:51] <Jucato> and the most famous answer will be "View > Show Hidden Files"
[05:51] <Tonio_> who complains now ?
[05:52] <Hawkwind> kcontrol was removed...when ?
[05:52] <Jucato> as everyone complained about the new color scheme
[05:52] <trappist> Jucato: that has other, less desirable effects
[05:52] <trappist> Hawkwind: ha, not removed... hidden :)
[05:52] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: you also can type the path on konq address bar
[05:52] <Hawkwind> Jucato: And that View -> Show Hidden Files should have choices
[05:52] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: what most people do
[05:52] <trappist> Hawkwind: that would be a decent compromise
[05:52] <Jucato> Hawkwind: that is already up to the Konqi devs
[05:53] <Hawkwind> There are multiple choices for everything, sure.  
[05:53] <Hawkwind> Jucato: What is ?
[05:53] <Jucato> Hawkwind: choices on which Hidden Files to show? (you could do that with Filters, though)
[05:53] <Hawkwind> Jucato: It's been suggested for years.....yet it's not yet a feature since I started using linux when KDE was 1.6
[05:53] <Tonio_> I don't see the problem in fact
[05:54] <Tonio_> we are just hidding the folder 90% people don't have to deal with
[05:54] <Jucato> there are many suggestions that have been neglected for years. for various reasons
[05:54] <Tonio_> that's sounds reasonable and logic in my opinion
[05:54] <Hawkwind> Jucato: There shouldn't be a need for filters.  When you hover over View -> Show Hidden Files it should bring up a sub-menu with choices of how/what you want to show.  Directories, files, both, none
[05:54] <Tonio_> what is gnome doing ?
[05:54] <Hawkwind> Who cares what Gnome does
[05:54] <Tonio_> they hide settings 90% people don't have to deal with in gconf
[05:54] <trappist> Tonio_: same, I've heard
[05:54] <Hawkwind> Since when does KDE have to be like Gnome ?
[05:54] <Tonio_> and honnestly, that makes sense
[05:54] <Hawkwind> Make sense to some, but not most
[05:54] <Jucato> Hawkwind: probably, but doesn't that function fall under the domain of Filters?
[05:55] <Hawkwind> People are going to freak over this
[05:55] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: kde doesn't have to be like gnome
[05:55] <Jucato> new things scare people
[05:55] <Jucato> it just takes time to adjust
[05:55] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: but kde doesn't have to ignore good indeas in kde
[05:55] <Tonio_> that's the point
[05:55] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: Then don't do what they are doing with the .hidden stuff
[05:55] <Hawkwind> Jucato: Filters ?
[05:55] <trappist> Tonio_: that's something of a difference between gnome and kde, historically.  I don't like gnome because I think they cater too much to the new user, with a simplistic-as-possible interface, at the expense of configurability for guys like me
[05:55] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: It's a good idea to *you* maybe.  Or to some, but most won't like it.  Time will prove that
[05:55] <Jucato> Hawkwind: filter toolbar?
[05:55] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: make a poll
[05:56] <Hawkwind> Jucato: No such thing in konqueror
[05:56] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: only geeks will mind, and even that's not sure, since they'll use the shell most on the time
[05:56] <Jucato> Hawkwind: really? hm.. let me get a screenshot for you
[05:56] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: that's not a good idea to me
[05:56] <trappist> come to think of it, I don't favor patching konqueror to not respect /.hidden.  I'd be more interested in patching /.hidden.
[05:56] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: I'm looking at it from a users point of view in #Kubuntu since I'm there all the time
[05:56] <trappist> because I do like the feature, just not the defaults.
[05:57] <Tonio_> I asked all supernewbies arround me, like my girlfriend, my mother etc.......; most feel that this is nice
[05:57] <Hawkwind> trappist: Good point. I just edited my .hidden file to show what I want
[05:57] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: #kubuntu is full of crying babies that spend their time criticizing everything.......
[05:57] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: playstation generation
[05:57] <Jucato> Tonio_: much more in the forums :P
[05:57] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: Let's not criticize the users that make us what we are
[05:57] <trappist> that's true, but what does it have to do with this?
[05:58] <Hawkwind> If it weren't for those users, we'd be nowhere
[05:58] <Jucato> hm... those complaining will be making more noise than the ones who will be satisfied?
[05:58] <trappist> Hawkwind: if it weren't for the whiners, we'd still have plenty of new users left over :)
[05:58] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: I am what I am because of what I do :)
[05:58] <Hawkwind> We have to respect what the majority likes, and I can tell you as an op of the channel seeing what people ask for all day everyday, this is not one of them
[05:58] <Jucato> we only hear/see the "whiners" most of the time, though
[05:58] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: and #kubuntu users are certainly not the majority
[05:59] <Tonio_> the majority doesn't even know what irc is
[05:59] <trappist> well I also don't like the tyrrany of the majority idea
[05:59] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: No they aren't.  I didn't say there were.  But time will tell....the option will either be put back like it was, or patched by trappist
[05:59] <Tonio_> here is the point, you make confusion between geeks users on irc and lambda users
[05:59] <Jucato> and yet aren't we uusing that argument as well? :P
[05:59] <trappist> what about this as a compromise: show /usr, /etc and /var.
[05:59] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: already used OSX ?
[06:00] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: So what about the idea I suggested....having options of what to show when you click on View -> Show Hidden Files ?
[06:00] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: Never touched it or even seen it running in person to be honest with you
[06:00] <trappist> Hawkwind: if the options are files and directories, that's not quite right.  I still don't want to see the .dirs in my home dir.
[06:00] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: that's why you can't understanf probably :)
[06:00] <Tonio_> OSX is a hudge base of good ideas concerning usability
[06:01] <Hawkwind> trappist: You can have a choice...to show just .dirs, just .files, both or none
[06:01] <Jucato> Hawkwind: uploading the pic...
[06:01] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: So you're saying I'm clueless as to what I myself and users like ?
[06:01] <Hawkwind> Shhhhhh, jdong is here :P
[06:01] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: no I just say that apple is by far a reference concerning usability
[06:01] <trappist> Tonio_: that's true, and I think it's a good idea for OSX.  the whole move to the BSD-ish backend was largely transparent, and their UI is quite a bit more advanced with better coverage than ours.
[06:02] <Tonio_> nobody else than you can decide what he likes/dislikes
[06:02] <Tonio_> and tastes cannot be discussed
[06:02] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: I can't agree or disagree with that since I've never used it.  You might be right, or I might not think so.  Not something I can say
[06:02] <jdong> Hawkwind: funny :)
[06:02] <Jucato> rawr.. my net connection is being slow when I need it to be fast...
[06:02] <jdong> maybe you guys can answer this
[06:02] <Hawkwind> trappist: So what about my last suggestion ?
[06:02] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: the point is edgy is the oportunity to makes tests
[06:03] <Jucato> Hawkwind: http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/jucato/filters.jpg
[06:03] <jdong> what does it take to enable dt_gnu_hash?
[06:03] <Tonio_> and I'm pretty sure, that'll not be that much criticized
[06:03] <Tonio_> time will tell
[06:03] <jdong> I just got back from trying FC6, and whatever the hell they did, they made it damn snappy
[06:03] <Hawkwind> Tonio_: I don't disagree with that.  I'm just stating it'll be asked to be put back like it was.  Atleast that's how I feel.  I might be proven wrong
[06:03] <trappist> Hawkwind: I think it doesn't quite solve this - show hidden files as in they start with ., or hidden files because they're in /.hidden - of course we'd need a *much* better way to say that
[06:03] <jdong> FC6's kde running inside VMWare on my sempron is faster than native Edgy on my core duo
[06:04] <Tonio_> Hawkwind: it'll be asked by people interested to know that, and that's not the majority, in my opinion
[06:04] <Tonio_> 10 complains per day on #kubuntu are nothing compared to the amount of users
[06:04] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I don't have that, unless I've removed it since I don't use much of the konqueror default stuff
[06:04] <Tonio_> the interesting point would reading at the board posts for example
[06:04] <Jucato> Hawkwind: hm... no wonder
[06:05] <Tonio_> the global feeling people are giving on the web
[06:05] <Hawkwind> Actually, I haven't customized konqueror in my Edgy install
[06:05] <Hawkwind> It's still set at default
[06:05] <Jucato> Hawkwind: it's just a button you  need to add
[06:05] <trappist> Tonio_: my personal tastes are actually pretty irrelevant here, since I don't really use konqueror - I just heard one of the complaints, checked it out, and said omg
[06:06] <Jucato> but it's still in Tool menu > View Filter
[06:07] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I don't have any option anywhere in configuring the toolbars for View Filter or Filters in KDE 3.5.5
[06:07] <Jucato> hm... probably we need both an announcement or wiki for this (for general public viewing) and a sort of FAQ on how to restore the original settings? like what was done with the Konqueror Profiles?
[06:08] <trappist> maybe some interesting new perpectives would pop up if we started a discussion on one of the -devel lists
[06:08] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I think that 'Filters' stuff is gone
[06:08] <Jucato> Hawkwind: right-click on the Toolbar > Configure Toolbar then from the Drop down list Filter toolbar. You should be in File manager mode
[06:08] <trappist> or maybe sounder, but I unsubscribed to that
[06:08] <Jucato> Hawkwind: of course they won't remove that
[06:08] <Hawkwind> Jucato: There is no Filter Toolbar 
[06:09] <Jucato> you're viewing a directory when you chose Configure Toolbar?
[06:09] <Hawkwind> Jucato: I have it here in 3.5.3 but it's not in 3.5.5
[06:09] <Hawkwind> Jucato: Hah yes
[06:09] <Jucato> I'm using 3.5.4
[06:09] <Jucato> "Haw yes"??
[06:09] <Hawkwind> I know it's here in 3.5.3 and probably 3.5.4 but not in 3.5.5 anymore
[06:09] <Jucato> that would definitely be strange if they removed it without notice
[06:09] <nixternal> shhh...im trying to hack here ;)
[06:10] <Jucato> and I don't think they would
[06:10] <Hawkwind> Jucato: Heh, I got it
[06:10] <trappist> here's what I think would be a pretty good solution, but more difficult to implement than the others: you're in / in konqueror, and there's a notice like firefox gives when it's blocked a popup, letting you know there's stuff you're not seeing due to configuration, and click here to change that behavior
[06:10] <Hawkwind> trappist: Excellent idea!
[06:11] <Jucato> wouldn't that defeat the purpose of hiding the directories in the first place?
[06:11] <trappist> Jucato: depends on the purpose
[06:11] <Jucato> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2231
[06:11] <jdong> alright, back to bed with me....
[06:11] <Jucato> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKDEMedia
[06:11] <Jucato> jdong: go to sleep heh :P
[06:11] <jdong> _Sime, Tonio_, fix kubuntuKDEmedia ktxbye
[06:12] <Jucato> lol
[06:12] <jdong> and I'm serious *****it
[06:12] <Jucato> hm... kdedevelopers.org isn't working?
[06:13] <trappist> not for me
[06:13] <Hawkwind> Nope, not here either
[06:13] <trappist> or maybe it's just being really slow - some of the kde sites seem to do that a lot
[06:13] <Jucato> they're updating to the new theme, I think
[06:13] <nixternal> kde is getting a face lift..tis why ;)
[06:14] <nixternal> kdewww as a matter of fact
[06:14] <Jucato> yeah new kool Oxygen :)
[06:14] <trappist> where I come from that's done by saying mv webroot oldwebroot && mv newwebroot webroot
[06:14] <Jucato> btw, does anyone know what happened to the spec about Oxygen being used in Edgy?
[06:14] <nixternal> im sure that spec got shot down big time
[06:15] <trappist> what's Oxygen, a style?
[06:15] <nixternal> as oxygen isn't even scheduled for completion any time soon
[06:15] <nixternal> new icon theme for kde4
[06:15] <Jucato> icon/color theme
[06:15] <Jucato> nixternal: it says it was "implemented" already?
[06:15] <nixternal> i don't know who created the spec, as it should probably have never been created
[06:15] <trappist> I sure do like nice icons.  but I quit trying new sets because I keep getting bit by incompleteness.
[06:15] <Jucato> here's the cached page from Sime's blog: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:2KiWZhs4AVYJ:www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2231+http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2231&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
[06:16] <nixternal> oxygen wasn't/isn't for Kubuntu/Ubuntu...it is for KDE 4
[06:16] <Jucato> trappist: this one is made to be complete
[06:16] <Jucato> nixternal: https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-icons
[06:17] <nixternal> wow...don't know why that was done
[06:17] <Jucato> yeah
[06:17] <Jucato> it took me by surprise as well
[06:17] <trappist> sime's blog isn't coming up for me either
[06:17] <nixternal> who knows..it could be some top-secret stuff only ken and jr know about as well
[06:17] <Jucato> someone just asked in #kubuntu and I was like, whoa?
[06:18] <trappist> or the google cache, I guess is what that is
[06:18] <Jucato> hm.. strange
[06:18] <Hawkwind> trappist: Same here
[06:18] <trappist> guess it's waiting to time out loading images from the original site
[06:19] <nixternal> heya everyone, link me to your blogs and i will sling ya in my new blogroll
[06:19] <nixternal> if you got something that you would like pimped and is cool...link me
[06:19] <Jucato> trappist: that blog entry explains the reasons for this implementation
[06:19] <Jucato> and some comments as well
[06:21] <Jucato> hm.. time for some chow :)
[06:21] <trappist> maybe it's not timing out at all.  maybe my browser is hiding it from me because I don't need to see it ;)
[06:21] <Jucato> lol
[06:22] <Jucato> turning a blind eye huh? :P
[06:22] <Hawkwind> Blog ? People still do that crazy stuff :P
[06:22] <trappist> yeah, that is so january
[06:22] <Jucato> Hawkwind: sane people blog. crazy people host repos :P
[06:23] <Hawkwind> Jucato: It's all about the hits and bandwidth used per month :)
[06:23] <Jucato> heh
[06:23] <Jucato> anyway, gtg :)
[06:23] <Hawkwind> Me too, bed time here
[06:23] <Jucato> lunch time here
[06:23] <trappist> I blog, but nobody cares, so I don't take much of a bandwidth hit
[06:24] <crimsun> (I don't blog, no one cares, everyone wins)
[06:25] <Hawkwind> trappist: I actually read your blog from time to time. Haven't in a few weeks though
[06:26] <trappist> Hawkwind: hah, who knew!
[06:26] <trappist> that makes 3 that I know of :)
[06:26] <Hawkwind> Though your blog isn't exactly 'New' anymore :P
[06:26] <Hawkwind> Hah, the other one must be jahhan I bet
[06:26] <trappist> one of the two others, yeah.  you remember him?
[06:27] <Hawkwind> Yeppers, surely do
[06:27] <Hawkwind> How's he doing ?
[06:27] <trappist> not bad.  he's fixing laptops and loving it.
[06:27] <Hawkwind> Ah still doing the laptop thing.  He came around #Mandriva for a bit here and there for a while, then dropped off and haven't seen him in quite some time
[06:28] <Hawkwind> Last seen on Freenode 1 year and 5 weeks ago :(
[06:28] <trappist> yeah I showed him the light and he's a kubuntu guy now, but not interested in the irc
[06:28] <Hawkwind> Ah kewl.  Glad to hear he made the switch too.  
[06:29] <trappist> that reminds me.  on my todo list this weekend is to upgrade my last mandrake box to ubuntu.
[06:29] <Hawkwind> Yeah I know he wasn't really interested in IRC when he came around the last few times.  Just kinda here to check to see who else was still around
[06:29] <trappist> and possibly one debian box.
[06:29] <Hawkwind> I've got my server to switch to Ubuntu from Mandriva.  Going to wait til Edgy goes final to do that
[06:30] <trappist> I'd like to, but the time to do that is hard to find, and edgy's good-enough right now
[06:30] <Hawkwind> I'm seriously thinking of upgrading this box to Edgy prior to final.  Just getting the guts to do it sometimes isn't easy
[06:31] <Hawkwind> Anyways, need to get to bed.  Daniel turns 8 tomorrow so we've got a pretty busy and exhausting day
[06:31] <trappist> well I've learned where my tolerance for instability is, and edgy crossed it when nvidia put out the xorg-7.1-compatible drivers
[06:31] <trappist> awesome, good night and have fun
[06:32] <trappist> guess I'll turn in too
[10:51] <freeflying> Riddell: arounds?
[10:52] <Hobbsee> boo
[10:53] <imbrandon> heya Hobbsee
[10:53] <imbrandon> moins freeflying
[10:53] <Hobbsee> hey imbrandon, freeflying 
[10:53] <Jucato> hi Hobbsee
[10:53] <freeflying> Hobbsee: imbrandon hi
[10:53] <imbrandon> and Jucato
[10:53] <Hobbsee> hi  Jucato 
[10:53] <imbrandon> ;)
[10:53] <Jucato> hi imbrandon!
[10:53] <freeflying> imbrandon: RFS
[10:54] <imbrandon> rfs ?
[10:55] <freeflying> imbrandon: need upload sponsor :)
[10:55] <imbrandon> ahh ok
[10:55] <imbrandon> sure what ?
[10:55] <freeflying> imbrandon: add ubuntu's keyserver to kgpg. and make it default
[10:56] <imbrandon> sounds ok to me, got a debdiff ?
[10:56] <freeflying> imbrandon: just a moment
[10:56] <freeflying> imbrandon: or I give you the patch?
[10:57] <imbrandon> sure
[10:57] <imbrandon> either way
[10:58] <imbrandon> i cant dcc
[11:00] <freeflying> imbrandon: I'll mail you debdiff soon
[11:00] <imbrandon> ok
[11:29] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: ping
[11:30] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: heya
[11:30] <gnomefreak> good morning :)
[11:30] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: i have a request since you are creator of package figured id ask you :)
[11:31] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: which package?
[11:31] <gnomefreak> python-gtk-1.2
[11:31] <gnomefreak> it needs patching 
[11:31] <Hobbsee> !info python-gtk-1.2 edgy
[11:31] <ubotu> python-gtk-1.2: GTK support module for Python. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.6.12-5 (edgy), package size 260 kB, installed size 1164 kB
[11:31] <Hobbsee> i did nothing of the sort.
[11:32] <gnomefreak> sorry its filed under python-gnome
[11:32] <gnomefreak> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/python-gnome/+bug/60361
[11:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 60361 in python-gnome "fails to install" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
[11:32] <gnomefreak> its python-gtk-1.2 thats failing
[11:34] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: got a debdiff?  imbrandon will probably upload that
[11:34] <gnomefreak> lol
[11:34] <gnomefreak> i dont know ho wto get a debdiff
[11:35] <gnomefreak> if im not evacuated i will ping him later
[11:37] <imbrandon> i see it, lemme finish eating then i'll look closer
[11:37] <imbrandon> gnomefreak, ^^
[11:38] <gnomefreak> imbrandon: ty
[11:38] <Hobbsee> evacuated?
[11:40] <gnomefreak> chem explostion
[11:40] <gnomefreak> about 6 miles from here but winds are heading east and im west of it
[11:40] <freeflying> imbrandon: debdiff sent
[11:40] <imbrandon> freeflying, rockin
[11:41] <Hobbsee> ah
[11:46] <imbrandon> freeflying, got it, gonna reboot then i'll upload
[11:55] <freeflying> imbrandon: thanks
[11:55] <Hobbsee> !info gaim-thinklight
[11:55] <ubotu> gaim-thinklight: Blinks your ThinkPad's ThinkLight upon new messgaes. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4-1 (dapper), package size 7 kB, installed size 100 kB
[11:55] <Hobbsee> !info gaim-thinklight edgy
[11:55] <ubotu> gaim-thinklight: Blinks your ThinkPad's ThinkLight upon new messgaes. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4-1 (edgy), package size 7 kB, installed size 100 kB
[11:59] <Hobbsee> apt-cache unmet | grep Package | wc -l
[11:59] <Hobbsee> 728
[11:59] <Hobbsee> ouch.
[12:01] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, yea ajmitch was making a list of the ones that just need rebuilt
[12:01] <imbrandon> and the ones that need fixing
[12:02] <Hobbsee> ahh okay
[12:02] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: apt-cache -i unmet
[12:02] <ajmitch> by default it shows all recommends & suggests as well
[12:03] <imbrandon> 189
[12:03] <imbrandon> seems to be
[12:03] <Lathiat> 'important'
[12:03] <imbrandon> makes it not show the recomends and sugests
[12:03] <Lathiat> e.g. Depends/Pre-depends
[12:03] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: it does what I said it does :)
[12:03] <imbrandon> heh
[12:03] <ajmitch> obviously she doesn't believe me
[12:03] <Lathiat> i see 204 here (i386)
[12:03] <imbrandon> i see 189 here i386 , hmm
[12:03] <ajmitch> it's best done in pbuilder
[12:04] <imbrandon> true, becouse of extra repos
[12:04] <ajmitch> and because of packages which you have installed, aren't checked
[12:04] <imbrandon> ahh
[12:04] <Lathiat> ah right
[12:04] <imbrandon> Riddell, ping ( you wake yet ? )
[12:05] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: well, duh
[12:06] <imbrandon> ahh ajmitch did i tell you i got it to make all the gcc debs ( and they work ) for everything but the dbg packages ?
[12:06] <imbrandon> i'm like this <--> close hehe
[12:07] <imbrandon> ( and no dbg becouse i had to stop it from dh_strip , it cant dh_strip a binary for another platform it seems )
[12:07] <ajmitch> crackful
[12:07] <imbrandon> heh
[12:07] <imbrandon> i'm thinking to make this all work right it will have to be pretty much a whole ppc chroot
[12:08] <imbrandon> but i havent got to that part yet
[12:08] <imbrandon> but if it takes me a year , by god i will figure it out , lol
[12:09] <imbrandon> i also put up the exact steps i have done so far too for people to poke at 
[12:09] <imbrandon> so maybe if soneone else gets intrest i can get some help and make this a full project
[12:09] <sebas> imbrandon: You are running kubuntu on a mac, right?
[12:09] <imbrandon> sebas, i have all 3 arches with kubuntu
[12:10] <imbrandon> atm i'm on i386 but i have a ppc mac like 20 feet from me
[12:10] <imbrandon> and a amd64 upstirs
[12:10] <imbrandon> upstairs*
[12:10] <sebas> There were a couple of reports that guidance modules in kcmshell don't work, and I think the common denominator is PPC, can you confirm?
[12:11] <imbrandon> sebas, sure, give me like 5 minutes to boot it up, i had it turned off
[12:11] <sebas> Sure, no problem.
[12:11] <sebas> Thanks :)
[12:11] <sebas> I mean: "WTF, it takes 5 minutes to boot?" ;-)
[12:12] <imbrandon> heh it takes 5 minutes to dig out the power cord , and yes its only a 800mhz ;)
[12:13] <imbrandon> ok booted up, updateing now to make sure i have the latest
[12:13] <imbrandon> just run the k-s-s and launch a module ?
[12:13] <imbrandon> sebas, ^
[12:14] <sebas> Lauch userconfig, mountconfig or displayconfig
[12:14] <sebas> Or serviceconfig
[12:14] <imbrandon> k
[12:14] <sebas> The rest isn't guidance
[12:15] <Jucato> ooh mountconfig :)
[12:15] <imbrandon> sebas, seems to launch fine here ( display and user config )
[12:15] <sebas> Aye, good to know.
[12:15] <sebas> I'll move the BRs to needinfo then
[12:16] <imbrandon> yup and mount config too
[12:16] <imbrandon> and i updated just now so its the latest
[12:16] <sebas> thanks for checking :)
[12:16] <imbrandon> np
[01:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: kipi-plugins splitted and uploaded
[01:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: wengophone will be ready in 10 minutes
[01:21] <imbrandon> freeflying, kdeutils uploaded
[01:24] <Tonio_> hi imbrandon
[01:24] <imbrandon> heya Tonio_
[01:26] <Tonio_> imbrandon: already seen this in a rules file ? find $(DEB_DESTDIR) -name "CMakeLists.txt" | xargs rm -f
[01:27] <Tonio_> I had to do this kind of things to get wengophone package clean........ that's horrible ;)
[01:28] <imbrandon> heh
[01:29] <Tonio_> imbrandon: in fact, imagin than srcdir, builddir and installdir are the same directly ;) htat'll guve you an idea of the mess it is to extract the files to the deb ;)
[01:30] <imbrandon> wow
[01:31] <Tonio_> imbrandon: yeah, was hard this time :)
[02:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: ping ? you wanted to discuss with me before I update kde-guidance
[02:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: hi
[02:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: just that getting the translations is fiddly
[02:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: use svn2dist
[02:12] <Riddell> but I usually end up editing svn2dist to get the guidance.po files
[02:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah ?
[02:13] <Tonio_> will do, and we'll se what happens :)
[02:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'm also writing main inclusion report for kipi-plugins
[02:13] <Riddell> ok
[02:13] <Tonio_> I just need to wait for it to be built
[02:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: ho and by the end, once the package is cleaned, wengophone deb is by 5 megs :)
[02:16] <Riddell> crazy
[02:17] <imbrandon> heya Riddell are you doing the uvf for 3.5.5 today ?
[02:17] <imbrandon> i just uploaded a debdiff for kdeutils that you could apply to 3.5.5 if you want for kgpg keyserver from freeflying
[02:18] <imbrandon> if your gonna upload 3.5.5 today
[02:20] <sebas> 3.5.5 is going into Edgy?
[02:21] <Riddell> sebas: we need to ask
[02:21] <Riddell> imbrandon: debdiff for what?
[02:21] <sebas> Riddell: Hm, ok.
[02:22] <sebas> Aren't people afraid of the problem that happened with Breezy
[02:22] <imbrandon> Riddell, to make keyserver.ubuntu.com the default keyserver for kgpg
[02:22] <imbrandon> ( in kdeutils )
[02:22] <imbrandon> sebas, well its mostly bugfixes only
[02:23] <sebas> Sure it is ;-)
[02:24] <sebas> In fact, I like the idea of using a supported distro, say not one which I immediately pollute with backported packages once I upgrade to Edgy
[02:24] <Riddell> sebas: sounds like you want 3.5.5 in
[02:25] <imbrandon> yea it would be much better IN edgy then on kubuntu.org right away
[02:26] <Tonio_> Riddell: svn2dist fails.... I only have the po file...
[02:26] <Tonio_> Riddell: any suggestion on what to do to get translations ?
[02:27] <Riddell> the po files are the translations
[02:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: poT file sorry ;)
[02:29] <Tonio_> I don't get the translations
[02:29] <sebas> Riddell: Yeah, but do I count?
[02:30] <Riddell> Tonio_: the translations are spread out throughout trunk/l10n/xx/playground, that's why we need svn2dist
[02:30] <Riddell> sebas: of course you do :)
[02:31] <sebas> Well, if 99 user's stuff breaks because 1 user wants it in while those 99 don't care, it probably doesn't
[02:31] <sebas> But it's hard to tell, of course.
[02:32] <sebas> And it really only makes a difference in the worst case (i.e. the breezy case, or the case with the broken update on Dapper to 3.5.4)
[02:32] <Riddell> sebas: then you should test the 3.5.5 packages and make sure there's no problems with them
[02:32] <sebas> Riddell: I'm not on Breezy yet
[02:32] <sebas> Eeh Edgy
[02:33] <imbrandon> yea i'm testing them now, no where near the issues with 3.5.4 ;)
[02:33] <sebas> The other problem is that I'm pretty swamped with issues beyond any developer's scope
[02:33] <Riddell> imbrandon: tried printing?
[02:33] <Riddell> sebas: I can imagine
[02:34] <imbrandon> ahh no i havent tried printing yet, lemme hookup the printer
[02:34] <imbrandon> give me ~10 minutes
[02:34] <Riddell> thanks
[02:34] <sebas> How unsafe is Edgy right now?
[02:34] <Riddell> pretty safe
[02:35] <sebas> When do I get the chance to kick you if it breaks? ;-)
[02:35] <imbrandon> sebas, think dapper post flight7, pretty stable
[02:35] <Riddell> sebas: the november conference :)
[02:35] <imbrandon> ;)
[02:35] <Riddell> but I'll have imbrandon there to protect me
[02:35] <sebas> I've got a talk tomorrow, and next Thursday, and last summer, I was calling someone stupid giving a presentation and demo, and nearly all his stuff was utterly broken, crashing.
[02:36] <highvoltage> karma.
[02:36] <sebas> He said "Well, I dist-upgraded, and then I realised I have to give a demo with this machine, so I stopped the upgrade half way"
[02:36] <Riddell> err, that's not sensible
[02:36] <sebas> Riddell: Ow, is that confirmed already?
[02:37] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:37] <sebas> No, he's an idiot (and he demoed GNOME)
[02:38] <Riddell> sebas: my list of people for the conference isn't confirmed but you'll be on it
[02:38] <sebas> Riddell: Ok, I'll have to take care of a passport, I've only got an ID (which is fine for inner-european travelling)
[02:38] <Riddell> sebas: actually I'll have 3.5.5 packages for dapper soon if you want to test those
[02:39] <Riddell> sebas: eek!  get one now!
[02:39] <sebas> Riddell: I can test those first, and then upgrade to Edgy
[02:39] <sebas> Won't be before Sunday, though
[02:39] <Riddell> Tonio_: try svn2dist with
[02:39] <Riddell>      pofiles="$pofiles $pofile"
[02:39] <Riddell> +    pofiles="guidance"
[02:39] <Riddell>  done
[02:39] <sebas> Riddell: Yeah, taking care of it *now*
[02:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: and --i18n-module=playground-base
[02:40] <imbrandon> s/le/el/ ?
[02:40] <Riddell> imbrandon: yes
[02:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay
[02:40] <imbrandon> ok printer hooked up, now to find the darn power cord for it
[02:40] <imbrandon> heh
[02:44] <imbrandon> Riddell, oops http://federation.imbrandon.com/ss107.png
[02:49] <imbrandon> whoop looks like konversation 1.0.1 will be out sometime today too
[02:50] <xeros> hi
[02:51] <xeros> Riddell: are the KDE 3.5.5 packages in http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde-355/ the latest to test?
[02:51] <xeros> I'm willing to use them for tests
[02:57] <Riddell> xeros: yes
[02:58] <Riddell> imbrandon: hmm
[02:58] <Riddell> xeros: please do (but mind they're not public)
[02:59] <xeros> Riddell: yes, I know
[03:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: doesn't work for the translations...
[03:07] <Tonio_> I tried everything you said... I never problems with svn2dist before (for example knetworkmanager).
[03:07] <tuxi> hi
[03:07] <Tonio_> Riddell: is there a reason it doesn't work especially with guidance ?
[03:07] <mhb> hey everyone
[03:08] <Riddell> Tonio_: yes, guidance in python and the build system is different
[03:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah...
[03:08] <Riddell> hi tuxi 
[03:09] <Tonio_> okay, let's grab them manually then :)
[03:11] <Riddell> Tonio_: I have it working now
[03:12] <tuxi> I listen now One Nation (The Disco Boys Remix) from  Gardeweg & Lange of Kontor Top Of The Clubs Vol.32 (Online Version) 
[03:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: how did you do ?
[03:12] <Tonio_> what svn2dist command did you use ?
[03:12] <tuxi> "/media"
[03:12] <Riddell> +    pofiles="guidance.po"
[03:13] <Tonio_> ah, with .po
[03:13] <Tonio_> will test
[03:13] <Riddell> svn2dist --i18n-module=playground-base base guidance
[03:13] <Riddell> yes, my mistake
[03:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: no problem
[03:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes it works this time
[03:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: fancy testing wengophone ? if the package is okay for you, I'll write an uvf exception request
[03:20] <Riddell> Tonio_: sure
[03:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: upload finished in 3 minutes, I'll let you know
[03:22] <Riddell> imbrandon: after that error can you add the printer anyway?
[03:22] <imbrandon> no
[03:22] <imbrandon> it comes up with the list
[03:22] <imbrandon> and then another error about cant add the printer becouse it cant connect to cups
[03:24] <Tonio_> imbrandon: how is your kdeprint configured ?
[03:24] <Tonio_> to connect to localhost or to the socket ?
[03:24] <imbrandon> i have no idea, how ever a fresh install does it
[03:24] <imbrandon> when it comes to printers i'm a n00b
[03:25] <imbrandon> i know how to click print thats all
[03:25] <imbrandon> lol
[03:25] <Tonio_> go in kdeprint prefs, and check at the cups config
[03:25] <imbrandon> if you want tme to check something or do something i'm more than happy
[03:25] <Tonio_> you should see how it connects to it
[03:25] <imbrandon> but you have to stell me exactly what
[03:25] <Tm_T> imbrandon: I know how to smash printers to tiny parts
[03:25] <Tonio_> 2 possibilities, localhost or /var/run/cups/cups.sock
[03:26] <imbrandon> 2nd
[03:26] <Tonio_> imbrandon: can you try to check this ?
[03:26] <imbrandon>  /var/....
[03:26] <imbrandon> see in the screenshot
[03:26] <imbrandon> down in the bottom right it shows the cups.sock
[03:28] <Tonio_> imbrandon: strange, very strange...... I don't have any issue here, kdeprint works like a charm
[03:28] <Riddell> I confirm imbrandon's problem
[03:28] <Riddell> although I don't have a printer attached
[03:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: can't connect to cups ?
[03:29] <Riddell> yep
[03:29] <Tonio_> okay I'm removing my local files and testing
[03:30] <imbrandon> yea like i said , if you tell me exactly what to do i can test heh but as far as printers i'm 1000% n00b
[03:30] <imbrandon> i barely can hit print button when it is setup correct ;)
[03:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://ubuntu.tonio.homelinux.org
[03:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: since it has lots of deps, I would suggest using the repo :)
[03:34] <imbrandon> Tonio_, how easy is the beryl packages to setup ?
[03:34] <imbrandon> heh
[03:34] <Tonio_> imbrandon: very easy :)
[03:34] <imbrandon> got a step by step ?
[03:34] <imbrandon> and does it work with the i810 driver ?
[03:38] <Riddell> "Need to get 58.8MB of archives."  lets not put this on the cd
[03:38] <imbrandon> wow
[03:39] <TheBearded1_> has linux-image 386 been updated to include smp support?
[03:39] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 no -generic is the smp kernel
[03:39] <imbrandon> -386 is uniprocessor
[03:40] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 " sudo apt-get install linux-generic " if you need smp
[03:40] <TheBearded1_> well the problem is that apt keeps wanting to install it
[03:40] <TheBearded1_> and then it puts it as the default kernel in menu.lst
[03:41] <imbrandon> after you install linux-generic remove linux-386
[03:41] <imbrandon> AFTER
[03:41] <imbrandon> the " sudo update-grub "
[03:41] <TheBearded1_> with all the dual core machines out there I think it'd be pretty bad if we installed a non-smp kernel by default
[03:41] <TheBearded1_> I have linux-generic installed right now
[03:42] <TheBearded1_> it's just that it keeps wanting to install the 386 one every time i update packages
[03:42] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 well bring it up on the -devel list but tbh this has been beat to death already
[03:42] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 exactly becosue you still have the linux-386 meta package
[03:43] <TheBearded1_> I just think maybe there could be some detection in the post install scripts of the 386 kernel to see if the machine is smp or not
[03:44] <TheBearded1_> and whether or not the general kernel is already installed and what not, to decide if it should be the default kernel in grub
[03:44] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 that could be a possibilty but you would be better talking to the guys in #ubuntu-kernel , we mostly only do the KDE stuff, your kinda preaching to the chior ;)
[03:45] <TheBearded1_> well, it is good to know i'm not the only person to realize the lack of logic in this
[03:46] <imbrandon> ;)
[03:46] <TheBearded1_> do you recall what the ubuntu-kernel guys defended it with?
[03:47] <TheBearded1_> i mean, there's not much of a point in disabling smp at all since it doens't really affect the performance of single processor machines by much
[03:47] <TheBearded1_> if i rememeber correctly from the kernel menuconfig it doesn't affect the performance at all
[03:47] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 there are some essential drivers that arent smp friendly /yet/ but that is a high priority afaik
[03:48] <imbrandon> ralink are the only one i can recall offhand but there are more
[03:48] <TheBearded1_> call me crazy but maybe it should atleast be mentioned in the package details that it's a non-smp kernel
[03:48] <TheBearded1_> i'll try to convince the ubuntu-kernel guys
[03:49] <TheBearded1_> i'm don't have high hopes about this
[03:50] <imbrandon> well -386 has never been a smp kernel so nothing has changed
[03:50] <imbrandon> the onyl thing that has changed is the smp kernels name from {-k7,-686} to -generic
[03:56] <Jucato> whoa... netsplit fun :)
[03:57] <Tonio_> imbrandon: sudo apt-get install beryl emerald-themes
[03:57] <Tonio_> imbrandon: then, if you have compisite enabled in xorg.conf, just run "beryl-manager"
[03:57] <Tonio_> and that works
[03:58] <imbrandon> hum , /me looks if composite is enabled
[04:01] <xeros> Riddell: I can confirm that your KDE 3.5.5 packages work without problems for me, too. I use it 30 minutes, I've tried many core apps and I haven't found any bugs.
[04:01] <Riddell> xeros: yay!
[04:01] <Riddell> xeros: tried printing?
[04:01] <xeros> yes
[04:01] <xeros> it's working, too
[04:01] <Riddell> curious
[04:02] <freeflying> all come back  :)
[04:03] <Hawkwind> Riddell: I used 3.5.5 for about 2 hours last night and had no problems what so ever either.  Everything seems to work as it should.  I however didn't have a printer hooked up so I couldn't test printing
[04:04] <imbrandon> yea printing seems to be the only issue and something tells me over the next month we can figure it out ( esp with more people useing it )
[04:04] <xeros> Riddell: I've tried printing test page, KWord documents, OpenOffice documents on my two printers - printing works
[04:05] <imbrandon> xeros, did you have the printer setup BEFORE you upgraded ?
[04:05] <xeros> I've got to go now, I'll be here in 3-4 hours
[04:05] <imbrandon> ok
[04:05] <xeros> imbrandon: yes, I had them before
[04:05] <Tonio_> Riddell: I removed my profile kdeprintrc files and that works too...
[04:05] <xeros> bbl...
[04:06] <Tonio_> xeros: tried kate ? I experienced a lot of kate crashes with 3.5.5
[04:06] <Tonio_> I'll probably look at kde svn to get a fix
[04:06] <freeflying> Tonio_: you mean kde bug #135045?
[04:06] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 135045 in general "Crash on various occasions" [Crash,New]  http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135045
[04:07] <Tonio_> freeflying: yes
[04:07] <Tonio_> exactly this
[04:07] <imbrandon> Tonio_, i've run kate alot , seems ok here
[04:07] <Tonio_> imbrandon: lucky guy :)
[04:08] <Tonio_> imbrandon: test to reproduce :
[04:08] <mhb> I haven't experienced kate crashes in Kubuntu yet
[04:09] <Tonio_> open konqueror, and go http://tonio.homelinux.org
[04:09] <Tonio_> change view type to use kate
[04:09] <Tonio_> then ctrl+f, search for "content"
[04:09] <bddebian> Howdy
[04:09] <Tonio_> validate, and it finds it, then make F3 to search for next occurence, and it crashes
[04:09] <freeflying> anyone can confirm malone #64325
[04:09] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 64325 in kdebase "Konqueror is slow when opening a directory" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/64325
[04:09] <Tonio_> imbrandon: can you confirm ?
[04:10] <Tonio_> freeflying: I can't sorry
[04:10] <Tonio_> imbrandon: I've done this test 10 times, crashes everytime
[04:10] <Tonio_> and that's one of the multiple crashes I had with kate
[04:10] <mhb> Tonio_: seems ok here, actually
[04:10] <Tonio_> mhb: very strange then......
[04:10] <imbrandon> yea seems fine here
[04:10] <Tonio_> could be profile issue, I'll try to clean once again
[04:10] <mhb> should it be 3.5.5 only?
[04:11] <Tonio_> mhb: yes I never had that problem before
[04:11] <imbrandon> brb restarting X
[04:11] <mhb> I run the 3.5.4 now, can check in 3.5.5
[04:11] <mhb> one moment
[04:11] <Tonio_> imbrandon: I did, I even rebooted
[04:11] <imbrandon> no _i_ am restarting X
[04:11] <imbrandon> brb
[04:11] <Tonio_> imbrandon: ah :)
[04:11] <Tonio_> brb ?
[04:11] <Tonio_> what does this means ?
[04:12] <imbrandon> be right back
[04:12] <mhb> be right back
[04:12] <Tonio_> okay :) sorry for my poor english
[04:12] <Riddell> "Segmentation fault"  bad wengo
[04:12] <TheBearded1_> i tested, no crash here
[04:12] <Jucato> is it um.. "relatively" safe to try 3.5.5 on dapper?
[04:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: how did you do this ?
[04:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: logging in
[04:13] <Tonio_> ah......
[04:13] <imbrandon> Jucato, there is no 3.5.5 dapper packages /yet/
[04:13] <Tonio_> works here.....
[04:13] <Jucato> imbrandon: what's the pool-dapper for in http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde-355/
[04:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you ls -la /opt/wengophone please ?
[04:13] <Jucato> ?
[04:13] <Tonio_> shoold have chmod 777 to the 2 log files, is that correct ?
[04:13] <Riddell> Tonio_: logging in a second time works now
[04:13] <imbrandon> Jucato, he is making them , i dont think they are done yet
[04:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: no chance maybe ;)
[04:14] <freeflying> Tonio_:  imbrandon you all can not confirm #64325? shall we reject it?
[04:14] <Tonio_> I didn't have any segfault at the moment
[04:14] <Riddell> Tonio_: but phoning my mobile I get a french woman recording saying something that's too fast for me to make out :(
[04:14] <Jucato> ah ok. sorry :)
[04:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe you need to buy tickets :)
[04:14] <Tonio_> I though they translated this in several languages
[04:14] <Riddell> it says I have a euro
[04:15] <Tonio_> lemme test a call on my mobile
[04:15] <Riddell> Tonio_: what's your wengo id?
[04:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: altmenorg
[04:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: I have called my cellphone, works here.....;
[04:15] <Tonio_> did you use international number ?
[04:16] <Riddell> yes
[04:16] <Tonio_> try local number maybe
[04:16] <Riddell> she said I can't something that number
[04:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you register the message somehow ? could be interesting I listen to it
[04:17] <Tonio_> Riddell: my microphone doesn't work :)
[04:17] <Tonio_> Riddell: impossible to perform audio with me, unfortunately
[04:17] <Riddell> can you hear me
[04:17] <Tonio_> nope, I had a crash :)
[04:17] <Riddell> ah
[04:17] <TheBearded1_> is it just me or is also kinda screwy in edgy?
[04:17] <Tonio_> not very stable at the moment, unless this is just config issue of chmods to perform
[04:18] <Riddell> Tonio_: is what?
[04:18] <Riddell> TheBearded1_: is what?
[04:18] <TheBearded1_> alsa**
[04:18] <mhb> Tonio_: you were right about that bug in 3.5.5 with kate
[04:18] <mhb> Tonio_: can confirm that
[04:18] <Tonio_> mhb: ah !
[04:18] <mhb> Tonio_: 3.5.4 unaffected, though
[04:19] <goldenear> Tonio_: will you make a package for jabbin or do you want me to do it ?
[04:19] <Tm_T> what bug with kate?
[04:19] <imbrandon> TheBearded1 also ?
[04:19] <imbrandon> alsa? 
[04:19] <imbrandon> seems fine here, i got amarok cranked
[04:19] <imbrandon> atm ;)
[04:20] <Riddell> imbrandon: want to help us test wengo?
[04:20] <TheBearded1_> well, it seems sorta off and on
[04:20] <TheBearded1_> I WANT TO TEST WENGO
[04:20] <Tonio_> goldenear: you can do :) I'm finishing packaging new apps for edgy
[04:20] <imbrandon> Riddell, sure give me 2 secs to install it
[04:20] <Tonio_> goldenear: I'll probably do for edgy+1 if nobody did
[04:20] <TheBearded1_> i tried it yesterday with the .deb from their site, crashilicous
[04:20] <Tonio_> TheBearded1 the deb is version 1
[04:20] <goldenear> Tonio_: why jabbin could not be for edgy ?
[04:20] <Tonio_> TheBearded1 I packaged version 2
[04:21] <Tonio_> TheBearded1 http://ubuntu.tonio.homelinux.org
[04:21] <TheBearded1_> about my also though
[04:21] <TheBearded1_> sometimes i boot up and it doesn't work
[04:21] <TheBearded1_> then i reboot, and it's fine
[04:21] <TheBearded1_> but all the volume controls work fine
[04:22] <TheBearded1_> sound apps don't give errors, i just don't hear shit
[04:22] <mhb> TheBearded1_: can't confirm, alsa working here as fine as in Dapper (100%)
[04:22] <mhb> TheBearded1_: could be hardware-specific
[04:22] <TheBearded1_> very possible
[04:23] <TheBearded1_> i have a newer dell inspiron
[04:23] <TheBearded1_> Intel ICH8 sound card
[04:23] <TheBearded1_> i know there are some patches out there for it, but i'm not sure if they've been applied to the ubuntu kernel or not
[04:24] <mhb> TheBearded1_: already filed a bug?
[04:24] <TheBearded1_> as before, i'd tell the guys in #ubuntu-kernel, except that it's quiet as can be in there
[04:24] <mhb> TheBearded1_: they enjoy their silence :o) that's usual
[04:25] <jdong> is it a known problem that KSS's display DPMS utility resets the timeout arbitrarily on login?
[04:26] <mhb> TheBearded1_: file a bug and subsribe Kubuntu Testers to it, maybe we can find someone with the very same card
[04:26] <TheBearded1_> no i wanted to see if anybody else was having the issue first
[04:26] <TheBearded1_> to get a proper context for the bug report
[04:28] <TheBearded1_> i'll get a bug report filed later on
[04:28] <mhb> TheBearded1_: join #kubuntu-testers, maybe we can find someone there
[04:29] <mhb> TheBearded1_: not sure though
[04:29] <goldenear> Tonio_: about jabbin, there is already a package for ubuntu: http://www.jabbin.com/int/linux-packages-install/
[04:29] <goldenear> we may directly put it in universe
[04:30] <Tonio_> goldenear: there is no source package :) that's not of any use
[04:30] <imbrandon> ok Riddell got it installed
[04:30] <Tonio_> goldenear: and upstream packages are generally shit
[04:30] <imbrandon> Riddell / Tonio_ my wongophone id is imbrandon ;)
[04:30] <Tonio_> imbrandon: okay :)
[04:31] <Tonio_> imbrandon: did you receive an email to validate your account ?
[04:31] <imbrandon> not yet
[04:31] <Tonio_> imbrandon: I think it has to be activated, since riddell cannot to anything, and that works prety nice for me
[04:31] <imbrandon> still waiting
[04:31] <Tonio_> imbrandon: okay but did they told you ou should receive a mail ?
[04:31] <goldenear> Tonio_: there is a source package and a .diff file :)
[04:31] <imbrandon> yea they said i should get one
[04:31] <goldenear> just follow the link
[04:31] <imbrandon> but it isnt here yet
[04:31] <goldenear> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=166861&package_id=201807&release_id=442045
[04:32] <jdong> Tonio_ / imbrandon: do your display poweroff settings work?
[04:32] <jdong> mine work for the current session, but after logout/logon, it resets to like an hour more than what I set it to be
[04:32] <imbrandon> i saw an incoming call
[04:32] <imbrandon> but i dont knwo how to answer it
[04:32] <imbrandon> lol
[04:33] <Tonio_> imbrandon: you have to click the green button
[04:33] <Riddell> imbrandon: you answered it
[04:33] <Riddell> but I can't hear anything from you
[04:33] <Riddell> and I have a Video window which says "No webcam"
[04:33] <imbrandon> yea i dont have a cam
[04:34] <Riddell> can you hear me?
[04:34] <imbrandon> no 
[04:34] <imbrandon> me?
[04:34] <jdong> brings whole new meaning to playing telephone....
[04:34] <Riddell> imbrandon: I can't hear you
[04:34] <Jucato> lol
[04:34] <jdong> sounds like it's working great, guys
[04:34] <imbrandon> i wonder if my mic is working
[04:34] <jdong> definitely good post-freeze edgy material :D
[04:35] <TheBearded1_> kubuntu-testers says no news either way as to success or problems on my sound card
[04:35] <imbrandon> ahh i have an audio config error , one sec Riddell
[04:35] <mhb> hm, not much people there ... :oI
[04:35] <mhb> TheBearded1_: sorry about that ... a bug report never hurts
[04:36] <goldenear> Riddell, imbrandon: you should try a real sip softphone such as twinkle :)
[04:36] <Tonio_> imbrandon: hehe, yes, look at the bottom right of the config, it displays the audio status
[04:36] <TheBearded1_> i'm sure the patches probably just need to be applied to the kernel
[04:36] <Tonio_> jdong: this is not supposed to be stable release though :)
[04:36] <mhb> I ran kphone back in the day and there were no problems ... but that was a while ago
[04:36] <Tonio_> stable isn't out yet
[04:36] <jdong> Tonio_: ha! good one :D
[04:37] <goldenear> if somebody wants to make a try you can call me at goldenear@ekiga.net
[04:38] <Tonio_> goldenear: you KNOW that wengophone isn't an sip client.... please !
[04:38] <goldenear> it is ...
[04:38] <Tonio_> nope
[04:38] <Riddell> it claims to be
[04:38] <Riddell> imbrandon: can you hear me?
[04:38] <goldenear> may be they open their network now...
[04:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: no, it claims to use sip for wengo to wengo calls
[04:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's different, it is not opened to sip
[04:39] <imbrandon> nope
[04:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: but that's in project
[04:39] <Tonio_> like gtalk at the very begining
[04:40] <Riddell> imbrandon: I can hear you!
[04:40] <Jucato> heh...
[04:40] <imbrandon> LOL
[04:41] <Tonio_> goldenear: you should read this : http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3793&highlight=sip
[04:41] <jdong> is this what the first alpha of ekiga was like on #ekiga-devel?
[04:41] <Jucato> will this be the future means of communication between devs? :)
[04:41] <mhb> Jucato: actually, it may be even when it sounds like a joke today :o)
[04:42] <goldenear> Jucato: yes, but with video too ;)
[04:42] <Jucato> lol
[04:42] <imbrandon> Riddell, can you still hear me
[04:42] <Riddell> imbrandon: yes
[04:42] <imbrandon> ok, hum
[04:42] <Jucato> i can only imagine :)
[04:42] <Tonio_> goldenear: and also this : http://forum.wengo.com/viewtopic.php?t=3682&highlight=sip
[04:42] <Tonio_> goldenear: making it possible to use wengo without wengo account is in the work
[04:42] <Tonio_> and same to make sip calls within the wengo network
[04:42] <Tonio_> just a matter of time
[04:42] <Riddell> Tonio_: got your text
[04:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: great, so sms work
[04:43] <mhb> it seems like fun :o) where's the package? :-D
[04:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: but yes as goldenear says, at the moment, it is closed sip network, so that you have to have a wengo account to use it, and you cannot call over sip anywhere, just wengo contacts
 goldenear: making it possible to use wengo without wengo account is in the work <-- they claim it's in the work since the beggining :(
[04:44] <goldenear> imho it will never happen
[04:44] <Tonio_> goldenear: I beleive that can become true once the apps is stable
[04:44] <Tonio_> mhb: http://ubuntu.tonio.homelinux.org
[04:44] <goldenear>  Riddell: but yes as goldenear says, at the moment, it is closed sip network, so that you have to have a wengo account to use it, and you cannot call over sip anywhere, just wengo contacts <-- that's a good reason not to promote it...
[04:45] <TheBearded1_> Tonio_: how's that beryl window manager?
[04:45] <Tonio_> goldenear: and btw, as long as the wengo network is opened, I don't mind if the client is wengo account only
[04:45] <goldenear> it's better to tell people to use real interoperable things...
[04:45] <TheBearded1_> does it intergrate into kde pretty well?
[04:45] <Tonio_> as long as I can can send/receive sip calls
[04:45] <goldenear> such as twinke or jabbin
[04:45] <Tonio_> goldenear: they don't provide sms services, nore they do provide video too
[04:45] <goldenear> not yet
[04:46] <Tonio_> same than openwengo :) not yet
[04:46] <goldenear> but it's in the work
[04:46] <Tonio_> and as I already told you, amsn or kmess are using a closed network, that doesn't mean closed software
[04:46] <goldenear> jabbin 3.0 will support video
[04:46] <Tonio_> goldenear: good to ear this !
[04:47] <goldenear> I would not tell people to use amsn !
[04:47] <Tonio_> goldenear: the point is seem to think we are going to promote openwengo heavily
[04:47] <Tonio_> but that's false, we are just going to have a package for it, that's all
[04:47] <Tonio_> as we do for twinkle, and probably for jabbin in the future
[04:47] <goldenear> As Linux users I really think our goal is to promote interoperability, not closed things...
[04:47] <Tonio_> the point is it is too late for jabbin in edgy, since it is a new package
[04:48] <Tonio_> goldenear: yes, but does this means boycotting everything else ? I don't think so
[04:48] <goldenear> I think it's a priority issue :
[04:48] <Tonio_> if jabbin 3.0 supports video, within jabber, I'd be the first to propose it for main and on the cd
[04:48] <goldenear> why first make a wengo package... 
[04:48] <Tonio_> goldenear: I did a wengo package because it is already in universe, so we can upgrade it
[04:49] <Tonio_> jabbin is not possible before edgy +1
[04:49] <goldenear> a jabbin package is imho much more interresting ethicaly speaking
[04:49] <Tonio_> that's why I didn't do any package
[04:49] <Tonio_> there will be a package for edgy+1, not doubt on this
[04:49] <Tonio_> goldenear: the point is should we forbid skype to be installed on kubuntu ? I don't think so
[04:50] <goldenear> that's the point... why there is not a jabbin package in universe yet ?
[04:50] <Tonio_> I won't, but if others wan to, I don't see why we should have a package
[04:50] <Tonio_> free software is also choice, and possibility to install non-free if you want
[04:50] <jdong> who said anything about forbidding installing a program on a platform built upon the concept of choice?
[04:50] <jdong> :)
[04:50] <Tonio_> goldenear: because I never heard of that application before !
[04:50] <Tonio_> goldenear: is that qt or kde based ?
[04:51] <goldenear> qt
[04:51] <Tonio_> jdong: well according to goldenear we shouldn't have a wengophone package........ that makes it impossible to install for Joe
[04:51] <mhb> how's Kopete's libjingle support in Edgy?
[04:51] <goldenear> it's cross plateform (linux,win32,mac)
[04:51] <Tonio_> goldenear: great, then I'll package it for edgy+1
[04:51] <Tonio_> kubuntu need an SIP solution out of the box anyway
[04:51] <Tonio_> and I agree jabbin looks very, very promissing
[04:51] <goldenear> twinkle then :)
[04:51] <Tonio_> goldenear: too late to get it in
[04:52] <goldenear> but it's already in universe !
[04:52] <goldenear> why not to update it like you do with wengo
[04:52] <Tonio_> goldenear: no more space on the cd ;)
[04:52] <Tonio_> and twinkle has a lot of universe deps afaik
[04:52] <Tonio_> that makes it complicated to get it in main so late
[04:52] <Tonio_> goldenear: I think sip solution for kubuntu will be discussed in the UDS
[04:53] <Tonio_> goldenear: if you leave me out with wengophone, I promiss to push jabbin ;)
[04:53] <Tonio_> goldenear: are you okay with this ?
[04:53] <goldenear> sure
[04:53] <jdong> Jucato: the worst is when you triage, confirm, and fix a high-priority release-targetted regression and nobody cares to apply the patch
[04:53] <jdong> :-/
[04:53] <Tonio_> great ;)
[04:54] <Tonio_> It hasn't even been though to have wengophone in main, in any way
[04:54] <Tonio_> so I don't see the problem
[04:54] <goldenear> but I hop your understand me
[04:54] <Tonio_> goldenear: yes, I do
[04:54] <mhb> I thought libjingle is the way to do data communications in Jabber, why use YA jabber client (with VoIP), when Kopete should support libjingle by now?
[04:55] <imbrandon> ugh X dies
[04:55] <Tonio_> I just think than asking "can someone call me on bla@ekiga.org", when you perfectly know that's not possible with wengophone, isn't fair play :)
[04:55] <Tonio_> goldenear: it is easier to say "cool for wengophone, but you can't call an sip address"
[04:55] <Tonio_> that's simpler to say it like this ;)
[04:55] <goldenear> so let's have really ethical politics and let's give our time and energy in priority to really open projects :)
[04:56] <Tonio_> I do what I want with my free time :) I'm not paid for this, and I could even contribute to plf if I wanted too
[04:56] <imbrandon> mhb, becouse kopete will only work with the OLD libjingle iirc ( and the new one is in edgy )
[04:57] <Tonio_> feel free to package jabbin if you miss it in universe :)
[04:57] <Tonio_> but don't ask me to package it before wengophone because of your ethics...
[04:57] <Tonio_> that's *my* free time
[04:57] <Tonio_> ^^
[04:58] <imbrandon> ok boys lets all calm down ;)
[04:58] <Tonio_> imbrandon: I am calm :)
[04:58] <mhb> imbrandon: couldn't that be fixed? Kopete's already there and libjingle's free enough and not limited to voice (although I think VoIP is neither)
[04:58] <goldenear> me too :)
[04:58] <mhb> imbrandon: for edgy+1, I mean
[04:58] <Tonio_> I know goldenear pretty well so he knows my feeling about
[04:58] <Tonio_> imbrandon: we discussed half of the night of that problem
[04:58] <imbrandon> mhb, yes sometime not in the next 30+ days though i dont think
[04:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe it takes a few time for the paying services to be activated.... you should retry in a moment
[04:59] <Tonio_> my girlfriend arrives, and that's a mess........ I have to go :)
[04:59] <imbrandon> Riddell, i had to go into kmix and put my intput to the mic
[04:59] <imbrandon> for it to work
[05:00] <imbrandon> it was on Aux
[05:00] <mhb> imbrandon: like I said, for edgy+1 ... I didn't think jabbim or wengo will get inside&tested before edgy+1
[05:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: kde-guidance uploaded as promissed
[05:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: will do the main inclusiob report for kipi-plugins toonight probably
[05:01] <Tonio_> I 'm not a big fan of the new power-manager icon.....
[05:02] <mhb> Tonio_: a new one?
[05:02] <Tonio_> mhb: yes
[05:02] <mhb> Tonio_: when did the new one arrive? Yesterday?
[05:02] <Tonio_> mhb: I just uploaded, you should get the update toonight, probably
[05:03] <goldenear> Tonio_: of course, do what you want with your free time... It's you problem if you want to feel guilty when you have to tell people not to use wengo anymore because they did not open to other sip networks as they claimed to do :D
[05:03] <mhb> Tonio_: you have a screenshot?
[05:03] <Tonio_> mhblemme show you
[05:04] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/tmp/capture16.png
[05:04] <jdong> whoa... that's.... creepy
[05:05] <jdong> I didn't really like the old one, but the new one is.... just... weird :)
[05:05] <mhb> I find it better than the last (present for me) one
[05:05] <mhb> but it doesn't fit in well
[05:06] <Tonio_> I'm not a fan too...
[05:06] <Tonio_> I prefer the concept, but it misses colors
[05:06] <Tonio_> same with a bit of colors could be very nice
[05:06] <mhb> Tonio_: did you tell Ken about it yesterday?
[05:07] <Riddell> mhb: it's only just been packaged
[05:07] <Tonio_> mhb: no I didn't saw the icon before, but I'll tell him my opinion, sure !
[05:07] <mhb> Riddell: oh
[05:07] <Tonio_> okay I have to go, cleaning my appartment
[05:07] <mhb> Riddell: you like it?
[05:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll follow that kate issue, hoping there is a fix released soon
[05:08] <Riddell> I agree that some colour would be nice
[05:09] <Tonio_> but I like the concept, simple, and efficient
[05:09] <Tonio_> just colors missing in my opinion
[05:09] <mhb> +1
[05:10] <Tonio_> I'm leaving, seya toonight probably
[05:11] <imbrandon> l8tr Tonio_
[05:13] <mhb> Riddell: Did you have time to check the .mo loading problem in systemsettings?
[05:14] <Riddell> mhb: not yet
[05:14] <mhb> ok, no problem, just asking
[05:15] <mhb> I understand you are a very busy man :o)
[05:18] <Riddell> yeah, lots to compile this week
[05:20] <mhb> anyone not-that-busy to test wengo with? I had one crash already
[05:21] <Riddell> oh I can test wengo :)  I'm jriddell
[05:24] <mhb> Riddell: great, a segfault
[05:25] <imbrandon> mhb, you can call mine too "imbrandon"
[05:25] <imbrandon> Riddell, can seem to hear me but i can never hear him
[05:26] <imbrandon> who was that ?
[05:26] <mhb> imbrandon: I tried to call you
[05:27] <imbrandon> coundent hear me ?
[05:27] <mhb> imbrandon: not a thing
[05:27] <imbrandon> hum
[05:27] <mhb> imbrandon: you neither?
[05:27] <imbrandon> nope
[05:27] <imbrandon> mhb, try again now please
[05:28] <mhb> imbrandon: Does test call work for you?
[05:28] <imbrandon> kinda , cant understand what they say
[05:29] <imbrandon> mhb, whats your id ?
[05:30] <goldenear> mhb, imbrandon : did you try twinkle ?
[05:30] <imbrandon> goldenear, no
[05:30] <mhb> nope
[05:30] <mhb> imbrandon: mhb_cze
[05:31] <goldenear> so what all that buzz around wengo :(
[05:31] <mhb> imbrandon: wait, I've got some "audio configuration error"
[05:31] <goldenear> I don't get it !
[05:31] <imbrandon> goldenear, tonio ask me to test with him, so i did, when it comes down to it i use skype
[05:32] <imbrandon> personaly
[05:32] <imbrandon> i dont see what there is to "get"
[05:33] <goldenear> imbrandon: why do you use skype and not sip ?
[05:33] <imbrandon> maybe becouse i have never had to call a sip phone in my life
[05:33] <imbrandon> and have no plans to
[05:34] <goldenear> you don't care about using a closed system ?
[05:34] <imbrandon> nope, dosent bother me at all
[05:34] <imbrandon> why do you ask ?
[05:35] <imbrandon> if there was an open system that did the exact same thing then sure, but untill that day i will continue to use flash and skype and ibm java etc etc etc
[05:35] <goldenear> I just try to understand what is missing for people to understand that it is far better to use open standards like sip or jabber than closed ones like skype or msn...
[05:35] <imbrandon> goldenear, call a normal phone with jabber
[05:36] <imbrandon> visit a flash website with gnash
[05:36] <imbrandon> then come back and explain this to me again
[05:36] <goldenear> with jabber it's not easy at the moment because 1) voip is pretty new on jabber and 2) there are no providers for that
[05:36] <imbrandon> goldenear, exactly
[05:36] <goldenear> but I can call a normal phone with twinkle (or any sip client)
[05:36] <imbrandon> and when there is i'll compare it and try it
[05:36] <mhb> imbrandon: hm, not working for me
[05:36] <goldenear> and I use to do it
[05:37] <mhb> imbrandon: says "buffer underflow"
[05:41] <Riddell> wengo has no quit menu item
[05:41] <imbrandon> Riddell, right click the tray icon
[05:42] <goldenear> imbrandon: do you know that if you use a sip client (twinkle, ekiga, or any other) you have the choice or your operator (hundreds of them)...
[05:42] <imbrandon> goldenear, yea i do
[05:43] <goldenear> isn't that a good point ?
[05:44] <imbrandon> thing is , tbh i dont follow the RMS school of software, i follow more of a linus one, i dont mind closed source, some things i prefer the propiatary versions of and use them in a mixed environment
[05:44] <Jucato> :)
[05:44] <imbrandon> and no ammount of "convincing" will make me think diffrent BUT if i try new software and like it i'll use it, and yes sometime when i have a chance i'll try twinkle
[05:46] <imbrandon> goldenear, see my point ? just becouse its "closed source" to me dosent make it evil IMHO, i do prefer fl.oss when i can get near the same quality or better, but when i cant i dont 
[05:46] <imbrandon> force the issue
[05:47] <goldenear> sure... that's exactly my point of view :)
[05:47] <goldenear> but in the case of skype, I think we have a real alternative with twinkle or ekiga
[05:47] <mhb> Riddell: is there a way we testers can find out what needs to be tested at the moment? (like KDE 3.5.5 right now)
[05:48] <goldenear> if you want to give a try to twinkle, just apt-get install twinkle
[05:48] <Riddell> mhb: kde 3.5.5 on edgy (dapper to come)
[05:48] <mhb> Riddell: I meant it more in general, about the future things
[05:48] <goldenear> and if you don't have a sip account, just create a free one on ekiga.net, voxalot.com or any other sip provider
[05:49] <imbrandon> mhb, hang out here or in #kubuntu-testers ;)
[05:49] <imbrandon> is the best way
[05:49] <Riddell> mhb: I'll try and announce stuff in #kubuntu-testers
[05:49] <imbrandon> goldenear, sometime ;)
[05:49] <imbrandon> goldenear, i will give it a try sometime soonish just not "right this second"
[05:50] <imbrandon> next day or so
[05:50] <mhb> Riddell: thanks ... I'll be here, so if you package something, just poke me, nothing more ... 
[05:51] <imbrandon> what i really want to find is a FL/OSS VoIP confrencing , many-to-many
[05:51] <imbrandon> goldenear, ^
[05:54] <goldenear> asterisk can do it
[05:55] <goldenear> imbrandon: ^
[05:56] <jdong> how ironic....
[05:57] <imbrandon> hah you ever tried to setup astrisk? you need a damn phd in astrisk's conf files
[05:57] <mhb> imbrandon: I tried :o) and gave up
[05:57] <jdong> "Running azureus inside gnome and ktorrent inside kde. KTorrent under gnome wastes a lot of resources because you need to install kde libraries and load them"
[05:57] <goldenear> sure, I have an asterisk server here at home
[05:58] <Jucato> lol
[05:58] <goldenear> lol
[05:58] <imbrandon> goldenear, so the avg joe can apt-get install it , run it with 3 clicks and be done ? i think not
[05:59] <goldenear> it's not the goal of a server side app...
[05:59] <imbrandon> right and i dont wanna run a server, i want a confrence ;)
[05:59] <imbrandon> heh
[05:59] <mhb> goldenear: that's the goal of Ubuntu Server, be as admin-friendly as possible :o)
[05:59] <jdong> ooh, 3-click servers... why does that make me shudder and thoughts of some redmond building come to mind?
[05:59] <goldenear> do you think the avg joe can apt-get apache and run it with 3 clicks ?
[05:59] <mhb> goldenear: and Ubuntu in general
[05:59] <jdong> goldenear: actually, when you use apt-get, you don't need to click at all :D
[06:00] <imbrandon> goldenear, actualy yes in ubuntu you can apt-get it and its setup WITH no clicks ;)
[06:00] <mhb> goldenear: yep, in Ubuntu Server he can (no kidding)
[06:00] <goldenear> imbrandon: you now have GUIs to configure asterisk
[06:00] <mhb> goldenear: (well, US is just a server-app part of Ubuntu)
[06:01] <goldenear> but I agree asterisk is not very easy to configure for somebody with only a few knowledge in voip
[06:01] <imbrandon> infact in about 5 minutes i can have a secure lamp install running a webmail suite ;)
[06:01] <imbrandon> goldenear, ^
[06:01] <imbrandon> no clicks and only 2 command line calls
[06:02] <goldenear> let's make a clean package for asterisk (with nice installation/configuration script) and you'll have the same :)
[06:02] <imbrandon> hell a secure mail server is even easy to setup ;0
[06:03] <goldenear> you don't need more than 5 minutes to have a working asterisk server
[06:03] <imbrandon> goldenear, after the paris confrence i spent the better part of 30 hours trying to config astrisks, i am not goign to touch it
[06:03] <imbrandon> that thing is evil
[06:04] <imbrandon> heh
[06:04] <goldenear> asterisk is not the best of course... I think freeswitch is much more interresting
[06:05] <goldenear> but at the moment asterisk is the only full featured working app
[06:05] <imbrandon> see those are all pbx's
[06:05] <imbrandon> i dont need a pbx
[06:05] <jdong> imbrandon: btw, my psychic upstream senses tells me that I will be filing a UVFe for KTorrent 2.0.3 very soon
[06:05] <imbrandon> i need a VoIP confrence server/client only
[06:05] <jdong> imbrandon: it is an important bugfix update
[06:05] <jdong> just a heads-up
[06:06] <imbrandon> jdong, well tell your upstream buddies to give us a detailed changelog this time ( esp this late )
[06:06] <imbrandon> please
[06:06] <goldenear> imbrandon: asterisk is like a swissknife for voip... it's not only a pbx
[06:06] <jdong> imbrandon: I did :D
[06:06] <jdong> imbrandon: you think I wouldn't rant after what happened last time :D
[06:06] <goldenear> it also is a voicemail system, an ivr and a voip conference system
[06:06] <imbrandon> goldenear, exactly, thats not the unix way
[06:06] <jdong> hell this time I know exactly what the patches/fixes are in 2.0.3... I've been following ktorrent very closely
[06:07] <imbrandon> jdong, great
[06:07] <jdong> imbrandon: do you think I can be bug contact for ktorrent in LP
[06:07] <jdong> imbrandon: I take great interest in that package
[06:07] <goldenear> imbrandon: you're right... but at least it is a working (and oss) solution
[06:08] <imbrandon> jdong, you can add your self to the bugmail of any packages you wish 
[06:08] <imbrandon> ;)
[06:09] <imbrandon> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ktorrent/+subscribe
[06:09] <imbrandon> jdong, check the box by your name ^^
[06:11] <goldenear> imbrandon: sems is also a good tool for voip conferencing
[06:11] <imbrandon> sems ?
[06:11] <imbrandon> got a url ?
[06:12] <goldenear> http://www.iptel.org/sems
[06:13] <goldenear> it is sip based and work with ser or openser
[06:13] <imbrandon> oh wow , ok again not "easy for joe"
[06:14] <Lure> is daily cd any good?
[06:15] <imbrandon> lure you should be able to remove ubuntu-desktop then apt-get autoremove
[06:15] <mhb> Lure: isn't a rc coming out soon? I dunno...
[06:15] <Tonio__> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportKipi-Plugins
[06:15] <Tonio__> done
[06:15] <Lure> imbrandon: I would like to start clean also due to kde 355 actually - and to test if some bugs are now fixed with ati 
[06:15] <Lure> Tonio__: what about digikamplugins?
[06:16] <goldenear> imbrandon: isn't sems what you are looking for ?
[06:16] <Tonio__> Lure: they conflicts....
[06:16] <Lure> Tonio__: conflicts with what?
[06:16] <Tonio__> and kipi-plugins are more widely used than digikam's ;)
[06:16] <Tonio__> Lure: they conflicts each other
[06:17] <imbrandon> goldenear, no what i'm looking for is a VoIP IM client that can host a confrence in 3 clicks like windows ;)
[06:17] <Tonio__> Lure: look at the deb packages
[06:17] <goldenear> imbrandon: then twinkle is what you need :)
[06:17] <jdong> imbrandon: ah, didn't know that
[06:17] <jdong> very cool
[06:17] <Tonio__> imbrandon: wengophone can, but that's dirty commercial software ^_^
[06:17] <Lure> Tonio__: true, I did not notice this...
[06:17] <jdong> imbrandon: you've got yourself a mr. ktorrent :D
[06:17] <imbrandon> Tonio__, no it can only handle 2 in the confrence not 100's
[06:18] <Tonio__> imbrandon: I though audio was possible with 8 people, like skype
[06:18] <imbrandon> still 8, not unlimited 
[06:18] <imbrandon> 8 is low
[06:18] <goldenear> imbrandon: only a server side app can do that
[06:18] <Tonio__> imbrandon: unlimited requires unlimited bandwidth ;)
[06:18] <imbrandon> Tonio__, right 
[06:19] <Tonio__> but I agree, a software like this misses in OSS world
[06:19] <goldenear> nop, sems can do it
[06:19] <imbrandon> goldenear, no, i can do it on osx and windows just fine, my point is in LINUX on a server side app can do it
[06:19] <goldenear> and asterisk too
[06:19] <goldenear> and others oss app can iirc
 goldenear, no, i can do it on osx and windows just fine <-- how ?
[06:20] <imbrandon> goldenear, no they cant, astricks and sems is not a client
[06:20] <Tonio_> what version of kipi-plugins is on your repos ?
[06:20] <imbrandon> iChat on OSX and MSN messenger or Netmeeting on windows
[06:20] <imbrandon> goldenear, ^
[06:20] <goldenear> lol
[06:20] <Lure> Tonio_: I have both kipi-plugins and digikamimageplugins installed
[06:20] <Tonio_> I don't understand, launchpad says version 1ubuntu1 is published, for hours, but it doesn't come to my repos
[06:20] <Tonio_> Lure: with debian packages ?
[06:20] <goldenear> they can because the server they're connecting to can do it :)
[06:20] <Lure> Tonio_: with ubuntu packages
[06:20] <Tonio_> version 1, not 1ubuntu1
[06:21] <Tonio_> can someone confirm
[06:21] <imbrandon> you laughing at me? your the one that keeps naming servers liek astrisk when i said client ;)
[06:21] <imbrandon> say they can do it, sure they can but not easy
[06:21] <imbrandon> and thats my point
[06:21] <Tonio_> Lure: Replaces: digikamplugins
[06:21] <goldenear> ???
[06:21] <imbrandon> its not EASY
[06:21] <Lure> Tonio_: maybe you tried digikamplugins
[06:21] <Tonio_> in kipi-plugins
[06:22] <Lure> Tonio_: note "image" in digikamimageplugins
[06:22] <goldenear> imbrandon: nor ichat or msn can manage conferencing without the help of a server...
[06:22] <Lure> this is confusing ;-)
[06:22] <Tonio_> lure
[06:22] <Tonio_> tonio@kubuntu:~$ apt-cache show digikamplugins
[06:22] <Tonio_> tonio@kubuntu:~$ 
[06:22] <Tonio_> what's this ?
[06:22] <Tonio_> looks like there is no package for digikamplugins
[06:22] <imbrandon> goldenear, nothing more than the normal server to connect them, after that the confrence is dirrect connect
[06:22] <Lure> Tonio_: no package as it was renamed to kipi-plugins
[06:23] <Tonio_> Lure: maybe they merged
[06:23] <Lure> do apt-cache show digikamimageplugins
[06:23] <imbrandon> anyhow its time for me to go, later yall
[06:23] <goldenear> imbrandon: non conferencing is not direct connect...
[06:23] <Lure> Tonio_: no, some were moved to kipi and some are left as digikam/showfoto plugins
[06:23] <goldenear> imbrandon: no, conferencing is not direct connect...
[06:23] <Tonio_> Lure: indeed
[06:23] <Tonio_> the point is my source package is in, but I can't see the binary, can you confirm ?
[06:24] <Tonio_> it was uploaded 10 ours ago, so it should have built
[06:24] <goldenear> imbrandon: only 3 way calling is direct connect
[06:24] <Lure> Tonio_: it really makes sense to have them in main, and if size allows also on cd/by default
[06:24] <Tonio_> Lure: was discussed yesterday, no left space, so only kipi will go
[06:25] <Lure> Tonio_: we will find something (OOo database comes to mind ;-))
[06:26] <Tonio_> Lure: all OOo if I had to choose :)
[06:27] <Tonio_> hum it has built succesfully.... just a matter of time to get it in the repos
[06:36] <_Sime> Tonio_: hey
[06:41] <Tonio_> _Sime: yo ;)
[06:42] <Tonio_> _Sime: patch upload needed ? :)
[06:42] <_Sime>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuKDEMedia
[06:42] <_Sime> new patches, new fixes and hopefully less bugs.
[06:42] <Tonio_> _Sime: great, will do toonight
[06:42] <Jucato> ooh _Sime should have been here earlier/yesterday :)
[06:43] <Tonio_> _Sime: your patches will be in tomorrow morning :)
[06:46] <_Sime> Jucato: I read the backlog.
[06:47] <Jucato> ooh... backlogs... :P
[06:47] <_Sime> Tonio_: cool, it should fix more things than it breaks. ;-)
[06:47] <_Sime> Tonio_: audio cds should work better, although konq likes to crash....
[07:20] <xeros> ok, I'm back
[07:24] <xeros> I've checked the bugs #64325 and #135045 - it seems it that kate and konqueror work without problems for me in kde 3.5.5
[07:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 64325 in kdebase "Konqueror is slow when opening a directory" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/64325
[08:16] <xeros> imbrandon_: do you still have problems with printers?
[09:11] <xeros> few hours of work and I still haven't found any bugs with KDE 3.5.5 on Edgy
[09:12] <xeros> I'm going to sleep now, see you tommorow...
[09:12] <mhb> xeros: did you try what Tonio suggested?
[09:12] <xeros> mhb: what?
[09:12] <mhb> xeros: I tried what he suggested and Kate crashed for me as well :oI
[09:13] <mhb> xeros: open http://tonio.homelinux.org/ with Konqueror
[09:13] <mhb> xeros: switch to the Advanced Text Editor view
[09:13] <mhb> xeros: search (ctrl+f) for the word "content" and then press F3 (search again)
[09:19] <allee> Tonio_: you created already a alioth account?
[09:28] <LeeJunFan> Can anyone verify this behaviour/bug?  Using an external floppy with edgy (current), upon insertion kde asks if I want to mount, however it doesn't mount and it also doesn't show the usb floppy in media. Perhaps though becaues it's not media:/ ? I can't find anything on launchpad about it - yet.
[09:28] <orkid__> is ther ea way to do a kubuntu edgy install from net (like a net-inst for debian?)
[09:29] <allee> orkid__: yes ;)
[09:29] <orkid__> allee: care to share? :)
[09:30] <LeeJunFan> allee: say yes again :p
[09:30] <orkid__> the response will then be, "proceed." :)
[09:30] <allee> orkid__: somewhre on archive.ubuntu.com there'sa netboot.tar.gz
[09:30] <orkid__> k tx, i'll check it out.
[09:30] <allee> orkid__: you can boot via PXE
[09:31] <mhb> LeeJunFan: #kubuntu-testers will be a better channel for that
[09:31] <mhb> LeeJunFan: I'll try it
[09:31] <allee> orkid__: there's also FAI in universe, work started to port fresch fai 3.0 to edgy
[09:31] <mhb> LeeJunFan: oh, floppies are a pain
[09:31] <orkid__> allee: what i meant was a local (floppy, grub, usb) boot with install from the net (or isos on hd would be ok too)
[09:31] <LeeJunFan> mhb: ah thanks, that's a new one by me. :) too many stinking channels to keep track of.
[09:32] <mhb> LeeJunFan: it's a new one, actually
[09:32] <mhb> LeeJunFan: it stinks a bit now because it's new and mostly empty
[09:32] <mhb> LeeJunFan: but I'm trying to get a freshener :o)
[09:32] <LeeJunFan> mhb: yeah, the whole media:/ thing with dappers kde was a pain as well with floppies. Here I was glad to see media gone thinking floppies links with open office and such would work better only to have the floppy not work at all.
[09:33] <orkid__> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/edgy/main/installer-amd64/current/images/ is where it's at. tx again.
[09:34] <allee> orkid__: if it's possible in debian it should be possible in kubuntu too, because both use the 'same' installer
[09:35] <orkid__> allee: that's what i figured, but haven't seen the process described anywhere, and couldn't find the installer images anywhere before now.
[09:35] <allee> orkid__: you no CD drive locally?  Floppies are a pain ;)
[09:35] <allee> orkid__: curious why do you want to boot via net?  No local CDROM drive?  Automise installation? ...?
[09:36] <allee> s/boot/install/
[09:37] <orkid__> allee: i don't want to waste CD's burning them. so i'd rather use the net install (and boot from a usb). i do it with fedora that way (just dd a boot.img onto a small usb stick, boot and install from there).
[09:37] <orkid__> allee: fedora/ubuntu update their distros every 6 months (or less even it seems now with edgy) and the burned discs soon become garbage (i don't have any cdrw's either)
[09:38] <orkid__> anyway, i'm going to try this out. tx again. l8r
[09:39] <allee> orkid__: okay.  A little USB image sounds like fun, but I only use netboot with PXE and preseeding and now FAI
[09:41] <orkid__> actually, before i run off, is the installer the same for ubuntu as kubuntu? (i would think not). archive.ubuntu.com doesn't have any edgy images...
[09:41] <orkid__> edgy (kubuntu)..
[09:42] <allee> orkid__: installer is the same.  'Only differece' is a preseeding file that installed different package sets
[09:42] <allee> ^^ on the CDROM/DVD
[09:42] <orkid__> allee: is the preseed in the boot.img, or kubuntu vs. ubuntu selected on boot ?
[09:44] <allee> orkid__: when the select a installation method the booted kernel get different path on preseed files that feed different values into the installer
[09:45] <orkid__> k, i'll give it a go. it'll prolly explain itself as i start (you're right,  it makes obvious sense the the installer would be the same b/w [k|x] ubuntu|debian.
[09:45] <orkid__> l8r
[09:58] <Tonio_> allee: not at the moment, but I think about :)
[09:58] <Tonio_> probably toonight or this we :)
[10:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: I worry about kipi-plugins.... I uploaded at 5 am UTC, all builds are finished for a very long time, and nothing on the repos....
[10:06] <Tonio_> I don't understand what happen
[10:07] <Tonio_> _Sime: I'm working on your patches on both 3.5.4 and 3.5.5
[10:08] <_Sime> Tonio_: will 3.5.5 be in edgy??
[10:08] <Tonio_> _Sime: riddell is gonna ask for uvf exception yes
[10:09] <Tonio_> I'll put the packages on my repo waiting for their approval, and for 3.5.4, that'll be uploaded toonight
[10:16] <_Sime> Tonio_: is 3.5.5 even released???
[10:16] <_Sime> don't thinkso
[10:17] <mhb> _Sime: it's not yet official
[10:17] <mhb> _Sime: but I guess it will be any day now
[10:17] <_Sime> or not yet out?
[10:17] <mhb> _Sime: yes, not yet
[10:17] <Tonio_> _Sime: not officially :)
[10:18] <marseillai> hmmmmmmmmmmm
[10:19] <marseillai> it seems that hal-management for removable devices don't work in edgy with kde -media-manager _Sime 
[10:19] <Tonio_> hum, possible fix for kate :)
[10:19] <Tonio_> kool
[10:19] <_Sime> marseillai: please explain
[10:19] <marseillai> _Sime: don't hate me please! :)
[10:20] <marseillai> i allways come with problems for you
[10:21] <marseillai> _Sime: in media:/ if you make a right click on a device and click on property you can select in mount tab some mount options as mount point or things like that. it worked in dapper with kde 3.5.4 it doesn't work in edgy
[10:22] <_Sime> marseillai: we don't use media:/
[10:22] <marseillai> you can do the same in /media/ normally! i check
[10:23] <_Sime> marseillai: does it work in /media?
[10:23] <marseillai> yes
[10:23] <marseillai> no
[10:23] <_Sime>  ( The changes to fstab maybe have messed things up a bit too)
[10:23] <marseillai> you can try this but it still don't work
[10:25] <marseillai> _Sime: ftp://marseillai.homelinux.org/media.png shows the config windows for this as you can see i specify /media/dd_usb as mount point but my usb hard drive is mount on /media/SEA_DISK
[10:26] <_Sime> marseillai: I'm not sure if those "generic mount options" in the properties window have even worked.
[10:27] <marseillai> _Sime: yes in dapper it was working so fine
[10:27] <marseillai> every options was working
[10:29] <_Sime> I'm confused. What does chaning options there suposed to achieve? It doesn't remount the disk or anything.
[10:30] <marseillai> it can for example change the mount point
[10:30] <marseillai> for example i've two apn! and both of them was mount on the same mount point with this option!
[10:30] <ryanakca> why does amarok's now playing display in the bottum left corner of the window not display properly? http://rkavanagh.homelinux.org/~ryan/amarok.png
[10:30] <marseillai> now it don't work
[10:31] <marseillai> _Sime: 
[10:31] <ryanakca> not reported yet, but it looks like an easy fix type thing.... if only I know how
[10:31] <_Sime> marseillai: it doesn't seem to do anything useful for me though.
[10:32] <_Sime> marseillai: if anything, it should be removed.
[10:32] <marseillai> _Sime: perhaps but it's a functionnality asked by many people before it came with kde 3.5.4 and now it doesn't work anymore
[10:32] <_Sime> marseillai: similar functionality is in kde-system-settings.
[10:33] <marseillai> i would be happy to see where .... :|
[10:33] <_Sime> marseillai: kde-system-settings -> Advanced -> Disks & Filesystems
[10:33] <marseillai> i look
[10:34] <marseillai> _Sime: this is for /etc/fstab! it doesn't manage HAL devices
[10:34] <marseillai> it's not the same thing
[10:35] <_Sime> marseillai: what is the difference?
[10:35] <marseillai> the difference is that /etc/fsatb cant differentiate one device from an other! hal can.
[10:36] <marseillai> so i can mount each device where i want
[10:37] <_Sime> I'm trying that out in dapper now...
[10:38] <gnomefreak> jdong: who is on the backports team in here?
[10:38] <gnomefreak> oops -jdong
[10:39] <_Sime> marseillai: ok, it did change the mountpoint. The dialog is not very clear about when things happen though.
[10:39] <_Sime> marseillai: I'll have a play with it on edgy this weekend if I get time. and see if it is broken or not.
[10:40] <marseillai> but you agree it work and it's useful
[10:40] <_Sime> marseillai: it is rather "techie", IMHO.
[10:40] <marseillai> _Sime: to me it's not a real problem i've broke my second apn but i had many vote for this feature request on kde-bugzilla ...
[10:40] <_Sime> ok
[10:41] <_Sime> I'll keep it in mind.
[10:41] <_Sime> :)
[10:43] <orkid__> install with the amd64 installer went great (ubuntu base system + kubuntu). however, have problems with akgregator: when i choose a news item to read, something tiny shows up in the bottom window, not the expected article (a font issue perhaps?)
[10:44] <rouzic> Hi Riddell
[10:44] <orkid__> it seems like the article is there (links are there... but again, nottext, just an underlined underscore character)
[10:44] <orkid__> this doesn't happen with the akgregator in 606
[10:45] <rouzic> imbrandon: I have a problem with a Edgy
[10:45] <rouzic> bug
[10:46] <mhb> rouzic: what is it? (This is actually no technical support, but ...) :o)
[10:47] <orkid__> sry
[10:47] <rouzic> mhb: In Edgy, wireless not working in a MacBook
[10:48] <rouzic> is problem with a modules madwifi
[10:49] <rouzic> This problem happens from the Knot2
[10:50] <mhb> rouzic: I think it was reported, wasn't it?
[10:50] <rouzic> In addition, I know many people who him is impossible to use the wifi in his portable one, these portable ones they are not of Apple
[10:51] <rouzic> mhb: yes
[10:51] <rouzic> But he has not been a confirmee in launchpad
[10:53] <rouzic> I believe that it is the serious urgent one, and that it must be solved before the stable version is published
[10:54] <Ingmar^> does edgy have AIGLX by default ? I mean, the xserver it runs on, has AIGLX ? or is that disabled by default ?
[10:54] <mhb> Ingmar^: AFAIK no and no
[10:55] <Ingmar^> mhb: thanks for your answer
[10:55] <mhb> rouzic: you can confirm it if you didn't report it :o)
[10:55] <Ingmar^> i'm trying to figure out why I can't play an xvid fluently using xv on either vlc, mplayer or xine
[10:55] <Ingmar^> ati radeon mobiity 9000 R250 card, 1.6 ghz pentium m
[10:56] <Ingmar^> used to work on dapper, probably worked on edgy, but for some reason, i notice alot of framedrops lately ( and i'm not sure if they were there right after i update to edgy )
[10:56] <mhb> rouzic: I understand is a really painful problem
[10:57] <mhb> rouzic: but I doubt Kubuntu developers can do much about it
[10:57] <rouzic> mhb:I confirm it, go proving all the unstable versions and in none it works
[10:58] <mhb> rouzic: they do mostly KDE stuff, Kubuntu shares lower-level programs with Ubuntu (kernel too - ubuntu kernel channel is #ubuntu-kernel)
[10:58] <rouzic> Mhb: I use wifi for Internet, me it is impossible to install it since I need Internet, and it is really troublesome to be using Mac OS.
[10:58] <rouzic> Thanks Mhb
[10:59] <mhb> rouzic: I can't promise they'll answer but they're responsible for the kernel (and this bug is a kernel bug, from the looks of it)
[11:00] <mhb> rouzic: you are welcome
[11:00] <rouzic> Thanks for all mhb ;)
[11:00] <mhb> Ingmar^: hm ... never happened to me
[11:01] <mhb> Ingmar^: but I haven't played any XviD movie lately, DivX works fine
[11:03] <xeros> Ingmar^: and what xvinfo says?
[11:03] <GNUro> hi
[11:03] <orkid__> i have a problem with SystemSettings/Advanced/LoginManager (Administrator Mode...) clicking on administrator mode gives a red outline with nothing in the middle and no box for a root password. can anyone try this? (kubuntu 6.10 beta +uni+multi+restricted, updated.
[11:03] <orkid__> (610 amd64)
[11:03] <mhb> orkid__: isn't k-testers better for this? 
[11:04] <Ingmar^> xeros: looking ...
[11:04] <mhb> orkid__: I have 386 but I can try
[11:04] <mhb> orkid__: negative, works here
[11:04] <Ingmar^> xeros: xvinfo doesn't give me any errors, just alot of info
[11:05] <orkid__> mhb: sry, i thouight i was in there.
[11:05] <Ingmar^> mhb: XviD & DivX should be the same for playback, not ?
[11:05] <orkid__> mhb: tx for trying neway.
[11:05] <mhb> Ingmar^: at least similar, I guess
[11:07] <Ingmar^> does "smooth video playback" ( ie without noticeable framedrops ) depend on ? dri ?
[11:07] <Ingmar^> should be possible with an opensource radeon driver, not ?
[11:07] <xeros> Ingmar^: do you have something like 'Adaptor #0: ATI Radeon Video Overlay"'?
[11:07] <xeros> Ingmar^: it's not dri related
[11:08] <Ingmar^> yes, I got exactly that
[11:08] <xeros> Ingmar^: I have Radeon Mobility U1 (IGP 200M) on my laptop with edgy and Xvideo works fine
[11:09] <xeros> Ingmar^: maybe some other application is using yours Xv port
[11:09] <Ingmar^> and how do i find out about that ?
[11:13] <xeros> Ingmar^: I've found that www browser (konqueror or firefox) may use Xv with KMplayer or other plugin plays streaming media (even only audio) and that can be why Xv is not available in other apps in the same time
[11:14] <Ingmar^> xeros: exactly what i was thinking, videos started play choppy after i watched something in kmplayer
[11:16] <Ingmar^> xeros: maybe it doesn't 'release' that port ,
[11:18] <Tonio_> _Sime: kickermedia patch doesn't work with 3.5.5, I'm porting it
[11:18] <orkid__> amarok 143's last.fm streaming won't work without libxine-extracodecs... should this be a dependency?
[11:18] <xeros> Ingmar^: I tried it now and it works, KMplayer releases the xv port and after I close it I can use other xv enabled players
[11:18] <orkid__> a stream can be 'played' but there's no audio (obvious, since there's no codec installed for it... but not msg or anything)
[11:20] <Ingmar^> xeros: any other ideas as to what's wrong ?
[11:21] <_Sime> Tonio_: what has changed?
[11:21] <Tonio_> _Sime: dunno, but I'll port the patch, odn't worry
[11:22] <Tonio_> _Sime: you'll get the sources with adapted patches on my repo
[11:22] <xeros> Ingmar^: and does it work after reboot?
[11:23] <Ingmar^> xeros: last time i rebooted didn't change anything
[11:25] <xeros> Ingmar^: do you have something like 'Adaptor #0: ATI Radeon Video Overlay"' in xvinfo?
[11:25] <ryanakca> 3join #amarok
[11:25] <Ingmar^> xeros: yes, i have that
[11:25] <ryanakca> oops, sorry, missed the shift on the three
[11:25] <Ingmar^> xeros: is that good or bad ?
[11:25] <xeros> Ingmar^: it's good :)
[11:26] <xeros> Ingmar^: do you use opensource ati/radeon driver of ati's fglrx
[11:26] <xeros> ?
[11:27] <Ingmar^> xeros: i use the opensource radeon driver
[11:27] <jdong> everyone knows that fglrx's xv is borked on Xorg 7.1, right?
[11:27] <jdong> the best workaround I've found is run Xgl (sadly) :D
[11:28] <xeros> Ingmar^: so am I, I don't like fglrx
[11:28] <Ingmar^> jdong: does that affect the opensource radeon driver ?
[11:28] <jdong> Ingmar^: not that I am aware. I said fglrx :)
 everyone knows that fglrx's xv is borked, right? <= corrected that for you ;-)
[11:29] <jdong> Ingmar^: AVIVO/TexturedVideo was pretty good in Dapper
[11:29] <jdong> Ingmar^: at least for me it was a charm
[11:29] <xeros> jdong: I've read that on the new fglrx driver works xv in xorg 7.1
[11:29] <jdong> xeros: 8.29.1?
[11:29] <jdong> I don't think so... I vaguely remember testing it
[11:30] <jdong> and the release notes still say it's borked
[11:30] <Ingmar^> they dropped support for my card with 8.24.... so it's not really an option
[11:30] <jdong> Ingmar^: if your card is that old, fglrx would be a nightmare
[11:30] <jdong> fglrx only works like a charm on the X-series
[11:30] <jdong> :D
[11:30] <xeros> jdong: yes, release notes say that it's broken, but I've read that it works on one forum
[11:31] <jdong> xeros: I'll try it again some time this weekend
[11:31] <jdong> but I doubt it...
[11:31] <xeros> jdong: wait a moment, I'll try to find this forum
[11:31] <Ingmar^> is there any other driver i could try, to see if the issue is with the radeon driver ?
[11:31] <Ingmar^> like vesa/mesa ?
[11:36] <mhb> good night, devs 
[11:37] <Ingmar^> night mhb
[11:47] <Ingmar^> which package contains the "xv" module ?
[11:57] <EnolaGay> hi all
[11:58] <xeros> jdong: sorry, I can't find that forum, everything I remember it was prononix/pronix/protonix/pro*nix (I don't remember exactly :( ) forum, there was weblog on the older ati propetiary drivers and I was looking there from time to time for comments on the new drivers
[12:00] <EnolaGay> Does anyone else has problems with kontact in edgy while clicking on the News button? I got an error message: "Cannot load part for news. Library files for "libknodepart.la" not found in paths."
[12:01] <xeros> ok, I'm going to sleep, too... good night everyone...
[12:02] <EnolaGay> Btw. I am very impressed from stability and starting time of edgy. Except this minor bug I have only found one more. Everything else works fine until now. Edgy looks much more LTS then Dapper ;)
[12:05] <xeros> one more thing...
[12:06] <xeros> Riddell: here (http://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=18033&action=view) you have a patch for kde bug #135045 related to kate crashes on kde 3.5.5
[12:06] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 135045 in general "Crash on various occasions" [Crash,New]  http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135045
[12:06] <EnolaGay> Should I make a bug report for this. I haven't found an entry in launchpad but this has nothing to say.
[12:07] <xeros> Ingmar^: libxv1, libxvmc1, and I'm out now... see you tommorow
[12:07] <Ingmar^> laters
[12:07] <Ingmar^> xeros: goes without saying, but thanks :)
[12:10] <EnolaGay> Ok, found the bug
[12:10] <EnolaGay> knode should be added to main and kontact or the entry News should be removed