[09:11] <tonyyarusso> @schedule montreal
[09:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:11] <Fujitsu> @schedule Melbourne
[09:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 11 Oct 06:00: Technical Board | 12 Oct 06:00: Edubuntu | 13 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 22:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:23] <GNAM> @schedule ROME
[09:23] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule boston
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule new york
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule americas/boston
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule US/boston
[09:24] <shawarma> *g*
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule US/new york
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <Burgundavia> grumble
[09:24] <GNAM> @schedule america/boston
[09:24] <GNAM> @schedule america/new york
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:25] <neuralis> @schedule new_york
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:25] <GNAM> usausas
[09:25] <Burgundavia> just saw that
[09:25] <neuralis> i win. ;)
[09:25] <Burgundavia> @schedule vancouver
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 10 Oct 13:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 13:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 05:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 05:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:25] <Burgundavia> neuralis: you do
[09:26] <tonyyarusso> You say @schedule once.......
[09:26] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: it is 3am here. I don't want to have to figure out timezones
[09:26] <Burgundavia> that is why computers do well
[09:27] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Yeah, I'm just amused how everyone does it at once.
[09:36] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso, waiting for people to break the ice!
[09:36] <tonyyarusso> It's like a tray of cookies at a church dinner.  Nobody wants to take the first one.
[09:37] <Fujitsu> Exactly.
[08:14] <zul> @schedule montreal
[08:14] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:42] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[08:42] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:46] <tepsipakki> @schedule finland
[08:46] <tepsipakki> bah
[08:46] <tepsipakki> @schedule helsinki
[08:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Helsinki: 10 Oct 23:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 23:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 15:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:12] <lfittl> @schedule vienna
[09:12] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:12] <jdong> cool
[09:12] <jdong> @schedule detroit
[09:12] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:13] <jdong> 45 minutes... :)
[09:24] <Toadstool> @schedule Los_angeles
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 10 Oct 13:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 13:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 05:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 05:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:53] <pitti> hi
[09:54] <jdong> hi pitti
[09:55] <pitti> hi jdong 
[09:55] <zul> hi pitti 
[09:57] <mdz> morning
[09:58] <jdong> afternoon, mdz :)
[09:59] <smurf> mdz, jdong: -EWRONGTIMEZONE
[09:59] <ajmitch> morning
[10:00] <jdong> AFTERNOON
[10:00] <smurf> night ;-)
[10:00] <mdz> welcome all
[10:00] <tepsipakki> good evening <yaawwwn> ;)
[10:00] <mdz> kristog proposed a discussion item for the agenda
[10:00] <Keybuk> mdz: are you going to drive, or shall I?
[10:00] <mdz> but there doesn't seem to be a kristog present
[10:00] <mdz> Keybuk: I've got it
[10:01] <mdz> does anyone know Riccardo Setti  / kristog?
[10:01] <Keybuk> he's on #ubuntu-devel
[10:01] <kristog> hello 
[10:01] <mdz> kristog: you're up
[10:01] <mdz> tell us what you want to discuss
[10:02] <kristog> mdz, * i wanted ask if people.ubuntu.com could provide web space for all UbuntuMembers
[10:02] <kristog> as people.debian.org/~developer do
[10:02] <mdz> kristog: what would this space be used for?
[10:02] <kristog> i , but i guess other people, could need space for put theyr work
[10:03] <mdz> can you give some examples?
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, ubuntu work, png, doc, debs
[10:03] <sivang> hi all
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, take a look on people.debian.org/~giskard
[10:03] <jdong> mdz: the most common application I can think of would be a personal APT repo
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, i need to put a .debdiff file 
[10:03] <mdz> kristog: is that your directory?
[10:03] <kristog> mdz yes
[10:03] <kristog> jdong, no, i don't think so
[10:03] <Keybuk> jdong: personal APT archives are something that Launchpad intends to provide
[10:03] <ogra> kristog, well, if you keep *everything in a bzr branch you caqn just use launchpad ;)
[10:04] <jdong> kristog: most of the other things I can think of can be attached to malone
[10:04] <mdz> jdong: publishing something on people.ubuntu.com lends a certain officiality to it; I'm not sure that should apply to all members when it comes to producing packages
[10:04] <jdong> or hosted as bzr branches on LP
[10:04] <jdong> mdz: yeah, certainly point taken. I'm not voicing an opinion one way or another yet :)
[10:04] <mdz> kristog: what is the .debdiff for?
[10:05] <kristog> jdong, yes, but i cannot say to  people that they have to use bzr for *download*  a .deb
[10:05] <mdz> kristog: if it's a patch for a package in Ubuntu, it would be better to put it in Launchpad
[10:05] <kristog> mdz, yes .debdiff was an example.
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: malone is useful for that
[10:05] <kristog> but i cannot attach .deb
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: why not?
[10:05] <Keybuk> mdz: otoh, it does seem ... odd that people.u.c is limited to canonical staff; and not at least core-dev members, no?
[10:05] <mjg59> Sorry, hi
[10:05] <raphink> hi
[10:05] <pitti> hi mjg59 
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: I attach debs for backports quite often
[10:05] <kristog> hello mjg59 
[10:06] <mdz> Keybuk: it's liimted to a pretty arbitrary and inconsistent group of people afaik
[10:06] <sivang> Keybuk++
[10:06] <Keybuk> e.g. there is no people.u.c/~mjg59
[10:06] <mdz> Keybuk: and I'm not arguing that, only the specific proposal on the table atm
[10:06] <jdong> I'd personally lean core-dev and possibly MOTU also
[10:06] <Keybuk> of course, elmo knows where I live ...
[10:06] <sivang> hehe
[10:07] <sivang> Keybuk: should have thought about this before :-)
[10:07] <kristog> mdz, i use my ~ for this kind of stuff, but people should use it for other things (related to ubuntu)
[10:07] <Keybuk> I'm not sure that this is something the TB can make a decision on?
[10:08] <mdz> Keybuk: not directly, but we should have an opinion
[10:08] <Keybuk> or, at least, an effectual decision
[10:08] <kristog> Keybuk,  i don't know sorry if this is not the right place :(
[10:08] <mjg59> I think there are technical arguments in favour of providing a resouce with reasonable bandwidth for developers to distribute files from
[10:08] <Keybuk> we give @ubuntu.com e-mail to every member
[10:08] <Keybuk> so it would fit that they also got people.uc/~ as well
[10:09] <mdz> I think that it is entirely appropriate for the project to have a place for contributors to place content, but there is some question in my mind about the particulars
[10:09] <Keybuk> the "official distribution" moniker would equally apply if they sent it from that e-mail address, no?
[10:09] <jdong> what are the use cases for a ~username that malone/launchpad wouldn't be appropriate?
[10:09] <jdong> other than the PPA's
[10:09] <Keybuk> jdong: launchpad lacks download areas  (I've complained about this from a strictly "LP as an SF replacement" POV)
[10:09] <mjg59> Well, in the launchpad case there's the basic problem that it doesn't have the functionality and someone would need to write it
[10:10] <jdong> mmm, ok, so for _releasing_ arbitrary files
[10:10] <mjg59> Whereas the ~ space is just a simple matter of configuration
[10:10] <Keybuk> not really
[10:10] <Keybuk> it needs a box allocated for it
[10:10] <Keybuk> accounts copied from launchpad
[10:10] <Keybuk> access control somehow arranged (libpam_lp?)
[10:10] <mjg59> Well, that's still likely to be less work than launchpad integration
[10:10] <Keybuk> ssh logins or just sftp?
[10:10] <mdz> mjg59: there's a bit more to it than that; there are substantive issues about authentication, access control, quotas, appropriate content, etc. which would need to be included
[10:11] <mjg59> But yeah, admittedly there are various issues
[10:11] <ogra> but as i understood sabdfl in th epast it shall also provide something to have your own repo with packasges built from your bzr branches
[10:11] <mdz> this should be considered entirely separate from the current rookery setup for canonical, I expect it would be an entirely new service
[10:11] <jdong> a home folder sounds like a temporary workaround for desired launchpad features?
[10:11] <Keybuk> indeed, rookery has been too much of a "staff machine" to just open up
[10:11] <sivang> ogra: yes, probably as PPA's
[10:11] <mdz> ogra: yes, it will
[10:11] <kristog> mdz, yes, i agree with you.
[10:11] <Keybuk> it would be too much of an audit
[10:11] <kristog> simira, PPA?
[10:11] <mdz> which is one of the reasons why there need to be concrete examples of how this service would be used
[10:11] <pitti> kristog: personal package archives
[10:11] <mdz> which are not already planned for launchpad
[10:11] <kristog> pitti,  thank you.
[10:12] <jdong> if we're speaking of LP as a SF, then being a ubuntu member doesn't seem like an appropriate requirement for posting packages to download
[10:12] <sivang> mdz: s/not// ?
[10:12] <mdz> PPA = personal packages archives = a facility provided by launchpad for publishing .debs in a repository for use with apt
[10:12] <Keybuk> mdz: much as the existing staff use their people areas?  random files uploaded for other people to download
[10:12] <Keybuk> it's not just debs
[10:12] <mdz> sivang: no
[10:12] <Keybuk> a quick glance at mine shows various bits and bobs
[10:12] <pitti> yeah, I use mine for screenshots, patches, etc., too
[10:13] <mdz> my public_html has: 1) branches (which now belong on the supermirror)
[10:13] <mdz> 2) random files which apply to bug reports (which should now be attachments in launchpad)
[10:14] <mdz> 3) packages (which will belong in PPAs soon)
[10:14] <pitti> my ~/public_html/bugpatterns/ is an interesting case
[10:14] <mdz> 4) random photos from Ubuntu events
[10:14] <Keybuk> I have a lot of "files I wanted somebody to look at"
[10:14] <pitti> it's functionality that *should* eventually go to LP, but isn't net
[10:14] <mdz> that's pretty much it for me
[10:14] <jdong> pitti: yeah, that's what I'm getting out of this
[10:14] <mdz> a few other things which have moved elsewhere
[10:15] <pitti> so, they are nice for using as a staging area for future LP features
[10:15] <kristog> jdong, in fact we have a wiki a bugtrack a bzr repo, we can do what we want with this services, but in the last 3 weeks i said a lot of times, why i have to put XXXX on my ~ on people.d.o and not on people.u.com
[10:15] <mdz> pitti: what is that?
[10:15] <sivang> pitti: what's http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/bugpatterns/ used for ?
[10:16] <keescook> it's a repo for apport to check for common crashes
[10:16] <pitti> mdz, sivang: I recently announced it to ubuntu-devel, let me find the archive link
[10:16] <smurf> pitti: "staging area" isn't entirely appropriate here, I'd call it "random junk"  ;-)
[10:16] <mdz> pitti: never mind, I'll see it when I catch up on lists
[10:16] <mdz> s/when/if/
[10:16] <sivang> pitti: ah, keescook explained it, thanks.
[10:16] <pitti> unfortunately my network sucks ATM, so new connections take ages
[10:17] <mjg59> I think one interesting example is the set of "unofficial" services on people.debian.org
[10:17] <mjg59> Like alternative interfaces to mailing list archives
[10:17] <keescook> bugpatterns> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-October/021502.html
[10:17] <pitti> keescook: thanks
[10:17] <Keybuk> mjg59: at that point we're talking about more than just a "download area" -- and have elevated it to "shell account"
[10:18] <mjg59> Keybuk: Right
[10:18] <mjg59> Keybuk: I think that useful things have come out of that, and so we ought to consider whether to provide a similar service
[10:18] <mdz> shell accounts for all members would not be workable
[10:18] <mdz> for -core-dev, possibly
[10:19] <kristog> mdz, why not for all member?
[10:19] <mdz> but realistically, Canonical is the only entity in a position to offer this service (and there is a substantial amont of work associated with it, both for setup and manitenance) so we would need to demonstrate a benefit to them
[10:19] <mdz> kristog: security
[10:20] <kristog> mdz, please explain :) 
[10:20] <mdz> kristog: handing out shell accounts as liberally as we grant membership is unwise for security reasons.
[10:20] <mdz> that won't fly
[10:20] <Keybuk> kristog: giving shell accounts on a machine in the canonical data centre to every ubuntu member ... it would be hard to get canonical to accept that risk
[10:20] <ajmitch> kristog: you've seen the issues with debian infrastructure at times, with ssh/gpg keys left open & abused
[10:21] <Keybuk> ajmitch: it takes a year or more to get access to the debian machines
[10:21] <ajmitch> the bar for membership is much lower than that for debian
[10:21] <kristog> ajmitch, yes, but afaik only 1 time we had problem
[10:21] <Keybuk> our membership process is MUCH easier
[10:21] <kristog> Keybuk, yes, but we should trust people
[10:21] <kristog> we as ubuntu
[10:21] <ajmitch> Keybuk: I agree, and many members wouldn't understand some of the issues with security either
[10:21] <mdz> kristog: in response to your /msg, becoming a Debian developer is nothing like becoming an ubuntu member
[10:22] <smurf> kristog: security unfortunately doesn't work with a "should trust" metric
[10:22] <kristog> mdz, yes, but it's not a signed gpg key that make the difference
[10:22] <mdz> kristog: and, I might add, Debian has had more than one disastrous security incident involving a breach of one or more of those shell accounts
[10:22] <Keybuk> kristog: why?  I wouldn't expect it to take long before people applied for membership simply to get a free shell account, and then used that for various illegal activities
[10:22] <sivang> that's a very good point.
[10:22] <kristog> sivang, yes, poeple is bad
[10:23] <kristog> but i guess we shouldn't start with this kind of argomentation.
[10:23] <kristog> for example : i can attach an illegal mp3 to LP 
[10:23] <Keybuk> mjg59: thoughts on shell accounts?
[10:24] <pitti> kristog: but you still cannot hack the data center with bug attachments
[10:24] <jdong> kristog: you can do a lot more destructive things faster with a shell account
[10:24] <smurf> kristog: but it's obvious when you do that. What you do in your own shell account somewhere isn't.
[10:24] <jdong> and SF also has compromise issues with their shell servers
[10:24] <mjg59> Keybuk: I think it would be desirable to provide them, but as noted it's not reasonable to offer them to all members
[10:25] <mdz> I expect that shell accounts would not be an option for a broad subset of contributors
[10:25] <mdz> it's simply too much security risk and administrative hassle
[10:25] <pitti> ++
[10:25] <mdz> more likely would be a WebDAV share
[10:25] <mdz> or sftp
[10:25] <pitti> also, web space is easy to get and cheap or free nowadays
[10:25] <jdong> pitti: heh, tell me that as a broke student :)
[10:26] <pitti> jdong: students usually have shell accounts in universities
[10:26] <mdz> my universities gave me free web space and shell accounts
[10:26] <pitti> I certainly had *more* bw and storage space than I have now :)
[10:26] <mdz> some of which I still have
[10:26] <mdz> being a student should be an advantage in this case, not a disadvantage
[10:26] <Keybuk> jdong: http://pages.google.com/
[10:26] <pitti> so, an upload area would be great, but shell accounts are not necessary for most use cases
[10:26] <pitti> so I wouldn't give them out by default
[10:26] <kristog> mdz, pitti yes, but i'm doing officially ubuntu work why i cannot put it on an official ubuntu space?
[10:27] <sivang> pitti++
[10:27] <pitti> if a particular member has an idea for a project that requires shell access, this can still be discussed on a case-by-case basis
[10:27] <pitti> e. g. working together with someone who has a shell account, and using bzr branches, or so
[10:27] <Seveas> I'd love to be able to put the various rss feeds I maintain on people.ubuntu.com -- bandwith usage is killing me 
[10:27] <pitti> kristog: as I said, an upload area (sftp only) would be nice
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: like specific mass process scripts for certain stuff.
[10:28] <kristog> pitti, right.
[10:28] <pitti> sivang: since that will have a considerable resource impact, it should be discussed with the admins anyway
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: indeed, that's why it's in only special and specific cases :)
[10:29] <Keybuk> Seveas's rss feeds take all the bandwidth away from the archive?
[10:29] <mdz> kristog: I have done work on a lot of projects without having those projects give me a free shell account or web space
[10:29] <ajmitch> note that we do have tiber (revu.tauware.de) for some stuff
[10:29] <pitti> I know that many tasks require mass-processing (I'm hogging rookery with all sorts of weird stuff, too), but we shouldn't give that away *by default* to everyone
[10:29] <mdz> it's not a typical arrangement
[10:29] <sivang> indeed.
[10:29] <ajmitch> a number of MOTUs have accounts & space on tiber
[10:30] <dholbach> (which is the revu host)
[10:30] <sivang> are they canonical machines?
[10:30] <dholbach> no, revu.tauware.de
[10:30] <ajmitch> not in the data centre
[10:30] <sivang> ah
[10:30] <mdz> I think we have a consensus that it would be useful to have a service to allow some Ubuntu contributors to publish content on the web at no cost
[10:31] <mdz> but further discussion is needed (esp. with the CC and Canonical) to estiblish the specifics of what can be put into place
[10:31] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: can we agree there and follow up accordingly?
[10:31] <Keybuk> I agree
[10:32] <mjg59> Yup
[10:32] <mdz> ok, I will follow up via email
[10:32] <mdz> to CC and Canonical sysadmin
[10:32] <mdz> (and TB of course)
[10:32] <mdz> when there is something to announce it will go to -devel-announce
[10:32] <mdz> kristog: thanks for bringing this up; it's something which ought to be given serious consideration
[10:32] <kristog> mdz, Keybuk  mjg59 thank you
[10:33] <mdz> on to -core-dev
[10:33] <Keybuk> On cooooorrre dev tonight
[10:33] <mdz> there have been three applicants since the last meeting
[10:33] <mdz> Joao Zanella, "okaratas" and Butch Bristow
[10:34] <mjg59> Any of them here?
[10:34] <mdz> dholbach: did you receive responses to your pings of any of those?
[10:34] <ajmitch> hm, none of those really sound familiar :)
[10:34] <dholbach> mdz: I notified you about each and everyone of them
[10:34] <Keybuk> . o O { I know a Flash Bristow ;) }
[10:34] <mdz> none of them are MOTU yet
[10:35] <dholbach> mdz: I need to compile that list (people <-> date of mail) still -  I was too busy.
[10:35] <ajmitch> mdz: I presume that launchpad can't enforce that people have to be members of one team to try & join another?
[10:35] <mdz> dholbach: did you send me the template you use to explain the process, i.e. joining motu first?
[10:35] <mdz> ajmitch: I don't think so, no
[10:35] <Keybuk> ajmitch: we don't always enforce a strict ubuntu-dev -> ubuntu-core-dev progression
[10:35] <mdz> we could set it up so that no one could apply for -core-dev directly, and would need to ask an administrator
[10:35] <Keybuk> ajmitch: some people have gone straight to the latter
[10:36] <mdz> anyone applying for -core-dev ought to know who to talk to
[10:36] <mdz> and it's in launchpad anyway
[10:36] <dholbach> mdz: I sent you a explanation you put in the launchpad team description
[10:36] <Keybuk> mdz: that would be tricky ... we'd have to keep a manual list of those people
[10:36] <Keybuk> the fact that we have a little date-sorted pending table atm is rather useful
[10:36] <mdz> dholbach: ah, right, that's where I stashed it
[10:36] <mdz> Keybuk: I think it's useful for -dev, but not really for -core-dev
[10:37] <mdz> it's much smaller and more stable
[10:37] <mdz> the vast majority of the applicants there are random people probing the system to see what they can do
[10:37] <Keybuk> my experience is that people just click "Join Team" in an Orkut/Myspace style on everything they see
[10:37] <jdong> lol
[10:37] <mdz> yes
[10:38] <mdz> well, I'm going to go through the -core-dev list and decline everyone who isn't in -dev
[10:38] <mdz> I think there are a few there who were deferred at a meeting but not declined in LP also
[10:38] <tepsipakki> the wikis should also be updated to point out clearly that the path is member -> dev -> core-dev
[10:38] <mdz> I'll see if I can clean those up
[10:39] <mdz> tepsipakki: I wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to start clarifying the process
[10:39] <mdz> it needs better linkage
[10:40] <tepsipakki> ah, yes.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaintainerCandidates is a bit older
[10:40] <mdz> anyway, moving on
[10:40] <Keybuk> ubuntu-dev
[10:40] <mdz> there seem to be 5 -dev applicants
[10:40] <mdz> one of them is also okaratas
[10:41] <mdz> sbalneav doesn't seem to be present
[10:41] <jdong> mdz: I'm also here to be considered for -dev (my name has been on the list for a very long time, sorry, I know)
[10:41] <mdz> mpgirijadevi@rediffmail.com is a very strange realname
[10:41] <ogra> nope, he's on his way home
[10:41] <mdz> jdong: indeed it has
[10:41] <tepsipakki> I've been on that list for a while now, but since I've had no net at home participation in these meetings has been.. difficult ;)
[10:41] <mdz> jdong: that means you get to go first
[10:41] <jdong> oh boy... :)
[10:42] <jdong> so how does it usually work? you guys ask the questions?
[10:42] <ogra> you give a three line intro
[10:43] <jdong> hi, I'm jdong.. you probably know me from Backports or the forums
[10:43] <jdong> I'm recently been more and more interested in becoming MOTU
[10:43] <jdong> I've found myself scratching at more and more bug reports
[10:43] <jdong> and some Backports work requires reaching into universe
[10:43] <mdz> jdong: you should read  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers and give an introduction which shows how you fit the guidelines for joining
[10:44] <jdong> ah, didn't know bout that
[10:44] <mdz> it's new :-)
[10:44] <mdz> if you'd like to take a few minutes and prepare while someone else presents, that's fine with me
[10:44] <jdong> well, I think I've worked with ubuntu and the developers enough to understand most packaging concepts
[10:44] <jdong> and development processes around here
[10:45] <mdz> jdong: can you give us some examples of packaging work you have done?
[10:45] <mdz> jdong: have you had uploads sponsored for you by existing members of the development team?
[10:45] <jdong> mdz: yeah, I've had some ktorrent and acidrips sponsored
[10:46] <mdz> jdong: by whom?
[10:46] <jdong> imbrandon has sponsored a ktorrent upload for me
[10:46] <ogra> jdong, ... "merge new versions from Debian" ... would you take part in that, even if your focus lies in backports ?
[10:46] <jdong> nafallo sponsored my acidrip upload
[10:46] <mdz> are imbrandon and nafallo present?
[10:46] <jdong> ogra: that seems to fit into the backports paradigm
[10:46] <jdong> ogra: I'd be willing to do more MOTU type of work, certainly
[10:47] <ogra> right, but would ayou do it for plain universe ? :)
[10:47] <ogra> right, thankls :)
[10:47] <ogra> *thanks
[10:47] <jdong> ogra: why not? what's in universe directly benefits backports :)
[10:47] <ogra> correct 
[10:47] <jdong> I guess that's something I didn't understand two years back :)
[10:47] <jdong> so, ogra, you were right :)
[10:48] <ogra> :)
[10:48] <ajmitch> jdong: ktorrent/acidrip were new packages or fixes?
[10:48] <jdong> ajmitch: primarily fixes
[10:48] <mdz> jdong: it's a good idea to have a number of uploads reviewed and uploaded by an existing developer, so that we have some background on your work
[10:49] <jdong> ok, what'd be considered "a number"?
[10:49] <mdz> two uploads isn't much, and neither of the sponsors have provided feedback about your work
[10:50] <jdong> ok
[10:50] <mdz> jdong: it would depend on the nature of the work, but if you want a guideline, I'd say probably >=10
[10:50] <jdong> ok
[10:50] <mdz> depending on whether the changes were trivial, who reviewed them, and how they felt about the sponsorship process
[10:51] <mdz> I'm going to improve the documentation about what we expect from developer applicants
[10:52] <jdong> I'll definitely try to get more involved then
[10:52] <mdz> basically what we need is enough information to make a judgement
[10:52] <jdong> sorry if the application was somewhat premature by the standards set
[10:52] <mdz> I know what you've done with backports, but uploading packages is a little different and we need to have more to go on
[10:52] <jdong> ok
[10:52] <mdz> I'll add some tips and a basic process to UbuntuDevelopers, I hope that will help you to prepare and reapply
[10:53] <jdong> thank you
[10:53] <mdz> tepsipakki: are you ready?
[10:53] <tepsipakki> I guess.. :)
[10:54] <mdz> please go ahead
[10:55] <tepsipakki> I'm Timo Aaltonen, working for Computing Centre of Helsinki University of Technology. My work includes administering 220+ dapper-workstations and some Tru64 servers and clusters
[10:55] <tepsipakki> for more go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
[10:56] <mdz> that's quite a few workstations
[10:56] <mdz> have you seen http://www.ubuntu.com/mystory ?
[10:56] <tepsipakki> I've been offline outside of work since June (until two weeks ago), so edgy was a bit off my queue
[10:56] <tepsipakki> mdz: yes I have
[10:57] <tepsipakki> but that kind of stuff has to go via my boss..
[10:57] <mdz> tepsipakki: we certainly would appreciate if you would ask :-)
[10:57] <tepsipakki> I'll do that ;)
[10:57] <mdz> so can you tell us about the development work you have already done on Ubuntu?
[10:58] <tepsipakki> mdz: well, I haven't been sponsored that much.. during dapper there was gtkpod-aac, libgssapi, librpcsecgss that I can remember
[10:59] <mdz> who was your sponsor, and are they able to speak on your behalf?
[10:59] <tepsipakki> then the debian maintainer (anibal) took over libgssapi&librpcsecgss in April I think
[10:59] <tepsipakki> oh, I don't remember
[11:00] <ajmitch> looks like jpatrick, who's not around
[11:00] <tepsipakki> actually, libgssapi&librpcsecgss were sponsored by anibal directly into debian
[11:01] <mdz> tepsipakki: is there any information you can provide us which would be useful in helping us judge whether you meet the guidelines for joining ubuntu-dev?
[11:02] <tepsipakki> hmm
[11:04] <tepsipakki> I'm not sure :/ Since there have been no sponsored packages for a while, it's hard to gather evidence
[11:05] <tepsipakki> not that there ever were that many
[11:06] <mdz> tepsipakki: would you be willing to work with MOTU to find a sponsor who would then advocate you?
[11:06] <tepsipakki> sure
[11:06] <mdz> if you've been away for a while, it would be a good idea to spend some time doing hands-on packaging work to get back into the groove
[11:06] <mdz> ajmitch sounded keen :-)
[11:07] <tepsipakki> there's libpam-krb5 which needs to be sorted out before edgy releases ;)
[11:07] <ajmitch> so far I've just seen UVF exceptions, but I'm happy to work with you on that stuff
[11:07] <mdz> if there's an edgy matter to discuss, please email me; this meeting is already running long
[11:07] <ajmitch> even that should just be a sync
[11:07] <mdz> thanks ajmitch
[11:07] <mdz> I don't think mpgirijadevi@rediffmail.com is present
[11:07] <mdz> so kristog is up next
[11:08] <tepsipakki> ok, we can continue this when there is more to show :)
[11:08] <kristog> ok :)
[11:08] <mdz> tepsipakki: sounds good
[11:08] <kristog> i'm Riccardo Setti, i'm a debian-developer
[11:08] <kristog> my work on ubuntu until know was do some package work
[11:08] <kristog> i packaged with dholbach most of the telepathy packages
[11:09] <kristog> for more information  you can take a look https://launchpad.net/people/giskard
[11:09] <kristog> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RiccardoSetti
[11:09] <pitti> I often see your name on utopia and network-manager alioth commits, right?
[11:09] <kristog> pitti, :)
[11:09] <kristog> yes.
[11:09] <kristog> pitti, yes i don NM and g-p-m for Debian
[11:10] <mdz> dholbach: do you have some input regarding kristog?
[11:10] <kristog> i'm tring to improve the ubuntu packages too
[11:10] <ogra> kristog expressed interest to care for gnome-power-manager in ubuntu as well btw :)
[11:10] <jdong> heh, that's well needed :D
[11:10] <dholbach> I think I would repeat myself with what I said a the CC meeting: kristog ROCKS, he works hard on galago, telepathy and desktop packages. he's apt, he helps other team members, he talks to upstream, he's everywhere. it's a pleasure to work with him and he's very funny.
[11:10] <ogra> yeah, and i'd love to get it off my back
[11:11] <mdz> dholbach: a ringing endorsement indeed!
[11:11] <mdz> kristog: how long have you been a Debian developer?
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, i paied him ;)
[11:11] <imbrandon> sorry did mdz ping me ?
[11:11] <dholbach> hahahah - a true Italian ;-)
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, officially since may
[11:11] <ogra> dholbach, *giggle*
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, i started my procces long time ago
[11:12] <mdz> kristog: who were your AM/sponsors in Debian?
[11:12] <kristog> mdz, http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=riccardo+Setti&comaint=yes
[11:12] <kristog> mdz, AM seees and HE
[11:12] <kristog> my sponsor frankie md lool sjoerd
[11:12] <kristog> joeyh
[11:12] <kristog> ccontavalli
[11:13] <kristog> vorlon one time
[11:13] <mdz> kristog: how did you become interested in contributing to ubuntu as well as Debian?  do you plan to do similar types of work or different things?
[11:14] <kristog> i shared interest with Ubuntu people
[11:14] <kristog> so i started working with them..
[11:14] <kristog> (galago) 
[11:15] <kristog> and with telepathy i started do real work for it
[11:15] <kristog> and..if i maintain NM for Debian why i cannot help the Ubuntu NM maintainer
[11:15] <mdz> how did your experience differ in developing for Ubuntu vs. Debian?
[11:16] <kristog> mdz, the proccess is different
[11:16] <kristog> and the social skill of developer are sometimes different
[11:16] <kristog> i like work with dholbach because we don't speak only of Ubuntu
[11:16] <mdz> can you elaborate regarding the social differences you noticed?
[11:17] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: still here?
[11:17] <mjg59> Yup
[11:17] <ogra> kristog, do you teach hinm italian ? i know he lacks there ;)
[11:17] <seb128> kristog is doing a really good job on telepathy team and desktop packages too
[11:18] <kristog> ogra, atm no :) if he will ask me i will happy to do :) i need some german lesson :)
[11:18] <kristog> seb128, :)
[11:18] <Keybuk> mdz: barely I'm afraid, I may have to flake out soon
[11:18] <mdz> Keybuk: just one more after kristog
[11:18] <mjg59> kristog: Have you got an answer to mdz's question?
[11:18] <ogra> kristog, well, teaching dholbach another lang is easy, just send him the latest harry potter italian edition ;)
[11:19] <ogra> :)
[11:19] <kristog> ogra, AHAHAHAAH 
[11:19] <kristog> mjg59, ?
[11:19] <mjg59> 22:16 < mdz> can you elaborate regarding the social differences you noticed?
[11:19] <kristog> didn't see it. sorry. 
[11:20] <mjg59> np :)
[11:20] <kristog> i feel it in a different way...
[11:20] <kristog> i cannot explain it...it's something...
[11:21] <kristog> mjg59,  mdz  you feel if something is different, i feel Debian more "techincal"
[11:22] <mjg59> Ok, that's a distinction I think I can understand
[11:22] <pitti> more 'human'? :p
[11:22] <ogra> more ubuntu !
[11:22] <mdz> kristog: based on what you said about dholbach, it sounds like you found it easier to relate to Ubuntu developers on a social level
[11:22] <kristog> pitti, no, a lot of debian people are *human*
[11:22] <pitti> kristog: (I know, just kidding)
[11:22] <kristog> pitti, :)
[11:22] <mdz> kristog: do you find it easier to relate to Debian developers on technical issues, relative to Ubuntu?
[11:23] <pitti> kristog: I'm a DD myself, and on the person-to-person level Debian works great for me, too
[11:24] <kristog> mdz, the approach is different
[11:25] <kristog> it's a mind restriction i guess..but in fact is so..
[11:25] <kristog> for example seb128 in #gnome-debian is different from the seb128 in #ubuntu-desktop
[11:25] <kristog> (sorry seb128 ;) )
[11:25] <mdz> really?  there are two faces of seb128?
[11:25] <ogra> heh
[11:26] <kristog> mdz, don't know, but i feel him so
[11:26] <seb128> I'm less participating on #gnome-debian for sure
[11:26] <ogra> the french and the german sebastiens ?
[11:27] <kristog> seb128, this was not my point :)
[11:27] <dholbach> ogra: http://photos.jonathancarter.co.za/udsparis2006/800_PICT0136 <- germans
[11:27] <seb128> the chan ambiance is not the same
[11:27] <seb128> sure I don't hug people on #gnome-debian
[11:27] <seb128> I'm not sure on how much they would like it :p
[11:27] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: any questions?
[11:27] <ogra> dholbach, *g*
[11:27] <Keybuk> mdz: none from me
[11:27] <kristog> seb128, RIGHT :)
[11:27] <mjg59> No, I'm happy
[11:28] <mdz> ok, votes
[11:28] <Keybuk> +1
[11:28] <mjg59> 1
[11:28] <mdz> +1 from me based on Debian contributions and strong endorsements
[11:28] <dholbach> CONGRATULATIONS kristog!
[11:28] <mdz> kristog: congratulations and welcome
[11:28] <pitti> kristog: welcome!
[11:28] <seb128> kristog: congrat :)
[11:28] <sivang> congrets kristog 
[11:28] <kristog> Keybuk, mjg59  mdz thank you :)
[11:28] <mdz> keescook: you're up next
[11:28] <keescook> I'm Kees Cook, and I'm part of the Ubuntu Security Team.  I've been busy triaging CVE reports that impact Ubuntu.  Outside of the security updates I've been doing, I've also done bug triage/fixing in edgy, and have been making progress towards becoming an official Debian Developer.  (http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=kees@outflux.net).
[11:28] <keescook> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeesCook for details about my recent packaging work.  (I can paste a summary here too, if you want.)
[11:29] <keescook> With MOTU standing, I would continue doing the same work as linked above, but I'd also be in a better position to help with merges and mentoring.  I'd like to someday become ubuntu-core-dev.  Thanks!
[11:29] <ogra> kristog, congrats !
[11:29] <mdz> pitti: I assume you've been sponsoring his uploads; what has your experience been?
[11:29] <phanatic> congrats kristog :)
[11:29] <kristog> phanatic, ogra, thank you.
[11:29] <keescook> I asked crimsun to join us, but I think he is busy.  (he sponsored one of my uploads too)
[11:29] <pitti> keescook quickly became familiar with basic packaging and with all sorts of differnt irky patch systems
[11:30] <pitti> I had to correct his very first updates, but the current ones have a consistent high quality and no major bugs
[11:30] <mdz> pitti: would you say that you generally upload his packages unmodified now?
[11:30] <pitti> he's a quick learner, doesn't hesitate to ask questions and is very curious about everything
[11:30] <pitti> mdz: yes, I do
[11:31] <pitti> I check the debdiff, but there have been no necessary fixes
[11:31] <mdz> great to hear
[11:31] <pitti> and he's very good at analyzing flaws
[11:31] <pitti> writing exploits on his own, etc
[11:32] <pitti> he certainly does not yet know everything about packaging
[11:32] <Keybuk> isn't he supposed to be fixing them? :)
[11:32] <keescook> thanks to pitti's eye and mentoring, I got debian sponsorship for some packages very quickly.
[11:32] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: I've talked with kees on more than one occasion already so we are fairly familiar already
[11:32] <pitti> Keybuk: that too :)
[11:32] <mdz> pitti: he needs to know the basics, and enough to know when he doesn't know ;-)
[11:32] <Keybuk> my concern is that Kees hasn't done much packaging work of his own yet
[11:32] <pitti> but he now knows enough for me to have him do uploads on his own 
[11:32] <Keybuk> we rejected jdong earlier for only having two sponsored uploads
[11:33] <Keybuk> and kees doesn't show many more to the archive, proper
[11:33] <mdz> Keybuk: not only that; even for those uploads there was no feedback
[11:33] <pitti> he did some non-security uploads to edgy, too
[11:33] <Keybuk> I'm inclined to treat the security archive much like the backports archive, as a separate entity
[11:33] <Keybuk> mdz: do we have feedback on kees uploads to edgy itself?
[11:34] <mdz> I'd disagree, given that the backports system to date has been purely rebuilds and hands-off on packaging
[11:34] <keescook> Keybuk: I can ask crimsun what he thought; he handled my debdiff for abuse-sdl.
[11:34] <ogra> i see 8 tagged with his name
[11:34] <keescook> (which were also taken by the debian maintainer)
[11:35] <keescook> https://launchpad.net/people/keescook/+packages  :)
[11:35] <mdz> Keybuk: yes, security uploads via pitti
[11:35] <Keybuk> mdz: as I said, I'm inclined to treat security differently
[11:35] <mdz> Keybuk: security uploads _to edgy_
[11:35] <Keybuk> especially as group membership has no bearing over it
[11:36] <pitti> Keybuk: it does
[11:36] <pitti> Keybuk: upload privs to -security are no different from the privs to upload to edgy
[11:36] <Keybuk> pitti: I thought security had its own keyring with just you in it?
[11:37] <pitti> Keybuk: no, every MOTU can upload universe apcakges, and every core dev to main -security
[11:37] <pitti> Keybuk: I'm just the only one who approves them in the queue
[11:37] <pitti> (so far)
[11:37] <pitti> ouch, it's too late to type -- 'apcakges' *cough*
[11:37] <mdz> uber privileges are required to actually push the update to users
[11:38] <mdz> but it is more or less like uploading to -updates
[11:38] <mdz> where the upload needs to be approved by an archive admin
[11:38] <pitti> so far Kees has been very cautious when it came to stuff he didn't yet know about
[11:38] <pitti> and he has shown to be very picky about reading debdiffs, etc.
[11:38] <keescook> I don't want my name on broken stuff.  :)
[11:39] <Keybuk> you dpatch'd python2.3? :)
[11:39] <keescook> Keybuk: it lacks dpatch, and as a result, on a clean build, my original patch failed.
[11:40] <keescook> i.e. at the time, I didn't have clean chroots (now I do)
[11:40] <keescook> and they had dpatch, but the buildd's didn't, obviously.
[11:40] <Keybuk> almost all of your sponsored uploads have been to main
[11:40] <Keybuk> what kind of thing do you want to do in universe?
[11:40] <keescook> specifically, I'd like to watch over inkscape, and fix games.
[11:41] <pitti> (inkscape is main, for the record)
[11:41] <keescook> er, whoops, yeah.
[11:41] <keescook> there are things I use in universe as well: sendmail, clamav
[11:41] <keescook> so I'd like to see those kept safe, up to date, etc.
[11:41] <Keybuk> keescook: are you planning to join the MOTU Games Team?
[11:42] <Keybuk> or either of the Ubuntu Games teams? :p
[11:42] <pitti> we also have some universe tasks about cleaning up library duplication (which is sort of security related, too); would you be interested in helping with that?
[11:42] <keescook> Keybuk: if there is need.  :)
[11:42] <pitti> like, getting rid of openssl097, old libdb versions, libtasn1-2, etc.
[11:42] <keescook> pitti: sure, is there a history of that process anywhere for me to read?
[11:43] <pitti> keescook: let's talk about that after the meeting
[11:43] <mdz> there's a specification even
[11:43] <pitti> yeah, DapperDuplicatedPackages or so
[11:43] <mdz> reducing-duplication
[11:44] <mdz> mjg59: any questions for keescook?
[11:46] <mjg59> I think I'm pretty happy wiht him
[11:47] <mdz> Keybuk: anything more?
[11:47] <Keybuk> mdz: nothing more
[11:47] <mdz> ok, votes
[11:47] <mjg59> +1 based on the recommendations from others
[11:47] <mdz> +1 based on substantial Ubuntu and Debian contributions, feedback from pitti and prior personal interviews
[11:48] <Keybuk> -1, not enough uploads to universe at this time
[11:48] <pitti> Keybuk: fair point
[11:48] <mdz> 2/3 majority, welcome keescook
[11:48] <pitti> keescook: welcome to the team!
[11:48] <keescook> woo!
[11:48] <dholbach> congratulations keescook!
[11:48] <mdz> keescook: I expect you to make Keybuk's reservations inapplicable in short order
[11:49] <ogra> welcome keescook !
[11:49] <keescook> Keybuk: given the UVF, what areas should I focus on in the near-term for universe?
[11:49] <mdz> keescook: otherwise it will come back to haunt your -core-dev application :-)
[11:49] <pitti> keescook: openssl transition would be most welcome
[11:49] <Keybuk> keescook: that would be better off co-ordinated with the MOTU than me
[11:49] <keescook> Keybuk: okay, noted.  I will bug dholbach.  ;)
[11:49] <pitti> that is, if universe remains unfrozen for some time until release
[11:49] <mdz> keescook: dholbach can guide you there
[11:50] <mdz> ok, that's all of the pending candidates I saw
[11:50] <dholbach> keescook: tomorrow? :-)
[11:50] <keescook> dholbach: sure thing.  :)
[11:50] <mdz> is there any other business?
[11:50] <dholbach> rock and roll
[11:50] <Keybuk> I had one item of "further business"
[11:50] <mdz> Keybuk: by all means
[11:50] <Keybuk> the original TB appointments (mine and yours) were for two years, and mjg59's I believe was for one year
[11:50] <Keybuk> all of these expire at the end of this month
[11:50] <Keybuk> do we have any word from the sabdfl what the plan is
[11:50] <mdz> wow, the time has passed quickly
[11:50] <Keybuk> hasn't it just
[11:50] <Seveas> (this also holds for the CC)
[11:51] <Keybuk> I suspect the answer is "ask Mark"
[11:51] <Keybuk> interestingly, his technically should expire too ;)
[11:51] <mdz> emailing technical-board would be a good start
[11:51] <mdz> if nothing happens there, I have a call scheduled with him later this week and will raise the issue then
[11:52] <mdz> (have made a note of it)
[11:52] <mdz> Keybuk: the launchpad expiry dates say 2007, but what you said sounds more correct
[11:53] <mdz> anything more?
[11:53] <Keybuk> yeah, the LP stuff is a bit random as it's just when the groups were moved around, etc.
[11:53] <mdz> workrave is demanding my first born
[11:53] <pitti> mdz: what will be the official course for announcing EOL of hoary?
[11:53] <Keybuk> mdz: heh, my other half has been turning lights off around me for the past half an hour
[11:54] <pitti> ok, we can discuss this later, nevermind
[11:54] <mdz> pitti: it'll go to -security-announce and some user-oriented lists/forums
[11:54] <mdz> Canonical comms is handling the announcement
[11:54] <pitti> ah, -s-a is nice, we didn't do that for warty
[11:55] <mdz> ok, not hearing any further business
[11:55] <mdz> adjourned, thanks all
[11:55] <pitti> thanks all
[11:55] <keescook> thanks!
[11:55] <mdz> what a marathon
[11:56] <ajmitch> that's probably a record length meeting
[11:56] <sivang> thanks all
[11:56] <sivang> ajmitch: we've had longer, I'm sure
[11:56] <Seveas> it's nothing compared to CC
[11:56] <pitti> yes, we had some 4 hours already
[11:56] <Seveas> last 2 were 3h+
[11:56] <ajmitch> Seveas: CC is different
[11:57] <mdz> jdong: (I finished those edits to UbuntuDevelopers)
[11:57] <Keybuk> night all
[11:58] <jdong> mdz: thx