[12:32] <BHSPitLappy> hi,
[01:28] <fschoep> troy_s: figured you might be online
[01:28] <troy_s> yes
[01:28] <troy_s> unfortunately
[01:28] <troy_s> fschoep, how are things?
[01:29] <fschoep> Well
[01:30] <Who_> hello people
[01:30] <troy_s> Whosie...
[01:31] <fschoep> Who_: great to see you
[01:31] <Who_> yea, sorry I don't have long!
[01:31] <fschoep> Who_: np
[01:31] <Who_> is jmak around?
[01:32] <Who_> the GDM looks freat, fschoep
[01:32] <fschoep> ;)
[01:32] <troy_s> who join #temp
[01:33] <fschoep> great now everyone will :D
[01:33] <troy_s> unlikely
[01:33] <troy_s> we are a boring lot
[01:33] <fschoep> At this time of day ;)
[01:40] <Viper550> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=46645
[01:44] <fschoep> Viper550: nice to see it's available for everyone now
[01:45] <fschoep> Viper550: I'm sure it'll fit right in for Edgy
[01:45] <Viper550> you actually love it? thank you! took me a few hours to port it down
[01:46] <fschoep> Viper550: I see, good work though
[01:47] <troy_s> its beautiful
[01:47] <troy_s> absolutely beautiful!
[01:48] <Viper550> I just think Edgy should ship just with something half different that at least "shows evolution". An updithered version of Dapper's splash with a better progress bar is my definition of "evolution"
[01:48] <Viper550> *different=decent
[01:49] <troy_s> absolutely
[01:49] <troy_s> i think it is incredible
[01:49] <Viper550> think it would look good as default?
[01:54] <Viper550> anyone still there?
[01:57] <fschoep> Viper550: I'm here
[01:57] <Viper550> (I was just updating the polish incoming
[01:58] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Polish/Incoming (Added new splash, +replaced usplash_
[02:01] <Viper550> like my new splash fschoep?
[02:01] <fschoep> Viper550: it isn't exactly "new" but it's Dapper redone which is nice
[02:01] <fschoep> Viper550: I'm sure a lot of people will want to try it
[02:02] <fschoep> Viper550: it's on the forums as well, right?
[02:02] <Viper550> yeah, posted it everywhere almost!
[02:05] <Viper550> even here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/usplash-theme-ubuntu/+bug/64819
[02:05] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 64819 in usplash-theme-ubuntu "[Edgy]  Usplash should use black background" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
[02:05] <Viper550> (oooh, that's neat!)
[02:06] <troy_s> thank goodness for ubugtu
[02:07] <Viper550> it does 2 types of bugs, ubuntu bugs and bugging other people right?
[02:07] <fschoep> @calc 2 * 550
[02:07] <Ubugtu> 1100
[02:09] <Viper550> oh yeah, beryl can do metacity themes now!
[02:09] <Viper550> i mean compiz
[02:11] <fschoep> it's going to be fun times for people doing artwork and themes
[02:12] <Viper550> my latest "pimpage" of the new usplash: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1606912#post1606912
[02:17] <Viper550> but troy_S, fschoep, how did you like my login splash?
[08:45] <unfknblvbl> looking for a nice terminal/console icon
[08:45] <unfknblvbl> any linkage ?
[10:28] <fschoep> troy_s: ping?
[11:23] <nysosym> hi all :)))
[11:25] <nysosym> hi fschoep :))
[11:26] <fschoep> hi
[11:26] <fschoep> phone brb
[11:26] <fschoep> :)
[11:26] <fschoep> b
[11:26] <fschoep> How are you doing nysosym
[11:29] <nysosym> badly, because i have some cold :-/
[11:29] <fschoep> oh dear, I hope you get well soon
[11:29] <nysosym> thx :)
[11:29] <nysosym> how are u?
[11:29] <fschoep> A bit.. sleepy
[11:29] <fschoep> :)
[11:29] <fschoep> Otherwise fine
[11:29] <fschoep> thanks
[11:31] <nysosym> aahhh, yes i'm a little bit sleepy too :D
[11:31] <nysosym> what do you do at moment?
[11:32] <fschoep> Sitting, waiting around
[11:32] <nysosym> waiting?
[11:32] <fschoep> Yeah, like waiting :)
[11:33] <nysosym> ^^ what do you waiting for?
[11:34] <nysosym> ohh, kernel update, restart.... brbr
[11:34] <fschoep> :)
[11:56] <nysosym> re ^^
[11:57] <nysosym> fschoep: al artworks looks like dapper now? O.o
[11:57] <lapo> hi
[11:58] <fschoep> nysosym: right
[11:58] <fschoep> nysosym: luckily
[11:58] <nysosym> why?
[11:58] <fschoep> nysosym: it's the only thing that Mark approved
[11:58] <nysosym> hmmm :-/
[11:59] <nysosym> is the temporary or final?
[12:00] <fschoep> nysosym: final, as far as I know right now
[12:01] <nysosym> hmm i don't like this, but okay, how will people know. That thes use, Dapper or Edgy, there is nothing to recognize
[12:01] <fschoep> There are some different icons
[12:01] <fschoep> ;)
[12:01] <nysosym> ^^
[12:02] <nysosym> yes okay, but nothing what u can see at first blush
[12:02] <fschoep> Rounded window corners
[12:02] <fschoep> high-res usplash
[12:02] <fschoep> but that's pretty much it, indeed
[12:05] <nysosym> hmm okay, can i have a look at your work please? :)
[12:05] <fschoep> Last thing we tried was creating a new GDM
[12:05] <fschoep> theme
[12:05] <nysosym> sure, can i see them?
[12:06] <nysosym> i know i'm pretty curious :D
[12:06] <fschoep> I'm trying DCC send
[12:06] <fschoep> Doesn't seem to work
[12:06] <fschoep> Your e-mail is (PM)?
[12:07] <nysosym> can u see my pm?
[12:07] <fschoep> No
[12:07] <fschoep> I know
[12:07] <fschoep> Eric
[12:07] <nysosym> yes :)
[12:07] <fschoep> hang on
[12:07] <nysosym> thx
[12:08] <fschoep> I was a bit sleepy so I didn't remember you are Eric :)
[12:08] <nysosym> no problem :)
[12:09] <nysosym> maybe i should change my nick ^^
[12:14] <nysosym> i like it a lot, much better as the dapper one, why does mark criticize them?
[12:15] <fschoep> I won't go into that here to prevent escalation ;)
[12:15] <fschoep> it's just not going in there yet :)
[12:16] <nysosym> ohh noo
[12:16] <nysosym> nothing escalate :D
[12:17] <nysosym> i respect the mind of mark, but i'm interested on the critic :D
[12:17] <fschoep> I see
[12:18] <fschoep> Well, the most important things are the colors and the feeling of "glow" around the logo
[12:18] <fschoep> those weren't really what Mark was looking for
[12:19] <nysosym> ok, well, thx :)
[12:21] <nysosym> i hope, edgy+1 will be a little bit "fresher" :D
[12:23] <nysosym> fschoep: do u have an account on any instant messenger protokoll? :D
[12:23] <nysosym> * protocol
[12:23] <fschoep> nysosym: no IRC is already too much too handle for me :)
[12:24] <nysosym> fschoep: okay, no problem :D
[12:25] <nysosym> damn, these stupid fly's make some shit on my monitor ^^
[12:28] <nysosym> sry for my language.. :-/
[12:28] <nysosym> but this is a real problem ^^
[12:29] <lapo> I respect mark a lot, but I feel having him "dictate" on graphic stuff is like me dictate on software architecture
[12:29] <lapo> btw it is fully in his rights, so no problems
[12:30] <nysosym> yes ;)
[12:31] <fschoep> :)
[12:32] <lapo> I really hope for him to pass the graphic decisions to fschoep eventually, only issuing general directions
[12:32] <fschoep> lapo: that kind of happened
[12:32] <fschoep> lapo: but didn't work out eventually
[12:32] <lapo> fschoep: so it pratically haven't happend yet :-)
[12:33] <fschoep> lapo: well, yes - we did a lot of work in the general direction but none of it worked for Mark
[12:33] <fschoep> lapo: that's why noone should complain or be dissatisfied - we worked very hard with the team
[12:33] <fschoep> lapo: that's way different than what happened during Dapper. For Edgy, we built momentum and worked in a focused way which is really great.
[12:34] <fschoep> For Edgy +1 we should concentrate on making sure that whatever we do fits the needs of Mark
[12:34] <fschoep> ...from the start.
[12:35] <lapo> fschoep: watch out, the momentum will eventually end if he end results are not very good :-/
[12:36] <fschoep> lapo: right, but Edgy was a testbed to build on the community and I think we succeeded in that
[12:36] <lapo> that's cool
[12:37] <lapo> but I'm kind of not really ok with the general direction mark wanted, the ubuntu looks is getting very ungnomish
[12:37] <lapo> and that's kinda sucks for me because I thought ubuntu is all about gnome
[12:37] <fschoep> I see
[12:37] <lapo> btw chaning the looks of stuff is easier with all the specs around now, so I don't really care :-)
[12:37] <nysosym> yes, i think although, edgy+1 will be the rival of vista and we should concentrate more for the design of edgy+1. :D
[12:38] <fschoep> Going to get some food now, brb
[12:38] <nysosym> yes, i'm too
[12:38] <nysosym> brb
[12:42] <andreasn> yeah, it would be really cool if the ubuntu-art team worked closer together with gnome
[12:44] <andreasn> I did feel we made some progress at the summit, where the artists from both redhat and novell met
[12:45] <andreasn> together with more "neutral dudes" like me :)
[01:08] <ROBOd> hello guys
[01:08] <ROBOd> is there something being done to provide a theme in kde which makes kde applications look the same in ubuntu?
[01:09] <ROBOd> same colour theme, same icons, same widgets
[01:14] <nysosym> re
[02:49] <frandavid100> hiya
[02:50] <frandavid100> I just noticed edgy's artwoek was reverted to dapper
[02:50] <frandavid100> why was that?
[03:07] <AnAnt> why did you change Edgy's GDM theme today ? It used to be nice !
[03:09] <ROBOd> we all ask, no answers :(
[03:09] <frandavid100> seems so
[03:10] <frandavid100> andreas, are you there?
[03:10] <AnAnt> ROBOd: so I'm not the only one who is sad about that theme
[03:11] <ROBOd> AnAnt: i didn't say i asked about that :P
[03:11] <frandavid100> not at all
[03:11] <ROBOd> i asked something else
[03:11] <AnAnt> oh
[03:11] <AnAnt> did you guys update gdm-theme today ?
[03:12] <ROBOd> i don't use edgy yet
[03:13] <troy_s> hi guys
[03:14] <AnAnt> oh
[03:15] <troy_s> how are you all?
[03:16] <ROBOd> we are all feeling marvelous
[03:16] <ROBOd> thanks for asking troy_s :)
[03:17] <troy_s> frank was in here, did edgy revert today?
[03:22] <unfknblvbl> anyone wwanna see some cool icons ?
[03:23] <ROBOd> i dislike the tangerine icons in kde 3.5.5
[03:23] <ROBOd> (in kubuntu)
[03:24] <ROBOd> in pervious versions of kde selecting tangerine icons was futile, since folder icons were not changing to the orange theme, they were forever blue
[03:24] <ROBOd> now in kde 3.5.5 this was "fixed". the orange icons look horrible, lol
[03:29] <AnAnt> troy_s: revert ?
[03:31] <troy_s> anant:  edgy artwork should have reverted to dapper today
[03:32] <AnAnt> troy_s: yes, it did, it's horrible . Why they did that ?
[03:32] <AnAnt> troy_s: the GDM theme used to be great
[03:32] <troy_s> forward your mail to mark :)
[03:32] <troy_s> that's about all you can do.
[03:32] <troy_s> basically, when frank uploaded the work
[03:32] <troy_s> it was halted
[03:32] <troy_s> so no polishing took place at all
[03:32] <troy_s> which is unfortunate
[03:33] <AnAnt> huh ?
[03:33] <troy_s> there were plans to unify the metacity borders to the palette etc
[03:33] <AnAnt> halted = ?
[03:33] <troy_s> frank uploaded the 'new' work
[03:33] <troy_s> including the newer gdm etc
[03:34] <troy_s> it was frozen from polishing because of his dilike
[03:34] <troy_s> dislike even
[03:34] <AnAnt> where can I get the old  (before reverting that is) artwork
[03:34] <AnAnt> ?
[03:34] <troy_s> anyways, speak with fschoep
[03:34] <AnAnt> he disliked what he did ?
[03:35] <troy_s> no
[03:35] <troy_s> for edgy there was a plan to attempt and address some of the artwork inconsistencies
[03:35] <AnAnt> oh
[03:35] <troy_s> for example, the distinct palette issues from gdm to logon splash to wallpaper
[03:35] <troy_s> etc
[03:36] <troy_s> what you saw were the first steps towards correcting those anomolies etc.
[03:36] <troy_s> needless to say, when frank uploaded his decisions (as artist in chief) he was trumped
[03:37] <troy_s> so the work sort of got frozen in an unpolished state
[03:38] <ROBOd> sorry to bother...
[03:38] <troy_s> Sorry ROBOd?
[03:39] <ROBOd> when i came here today i asked about something is somewhat similar to what you guys discuss now, theme consistency and overall artwork consistency
[03:39] <troy_s> LOL
[03:39] <troy_s> anyways...
[03:39] <troy_s> long story
[03:39] <troy_s> basically we _tried_ to address that
[03:39] <ROBOd> well...
[03:39] <troy_s> fschoep was the artist in chief, but ended up being the artist in chains.
[03:39] <troy_s> :)
[03:40] <ROBOd> how about consistency between kde and gnome themes?
[03:40] <troy_s> no chance
[03:40] <ROBOd> i don't mean by default
[03:40] <troy_s> as soon as you suggest any form of unifying, you will get serious issues.
[03:40] <AnAnt> chains ?
[03:40] <troy_s> what i was hoping was that we could have developed a few motifs
[03:40] <AnAnt> prison ?
[03:40] <troy_s> that we could have migrated between the distributions, that will not happen
[03:41] <troy_s> as soon as you offer any sort of 'unify' talk, people get very political.
[03:41] <ROBOd> i mean, can't kubuntu have an optional kde theme with human icons, human color theme and "widgets style" (polyester, but better)?
[03:41] <troy_s> sure
[03:41] <andreasn> ROBOd: hm, did tangerine use to display blue folders in kde?
[03:41] <troy_s> you could do that yourself.
[03:41] <ROBOd> troy_s: why not provide one by default?
[03:41] <troy_s> andreasn -- how's tango going?
[03:41] <troy_s> robod:  send your mail to mark
[03:42] <ROBOd> troy_s: one that looks better than mine home-made
[03:42] <troy_s> robod:  its free software, feel free to voice your thoughts.
[03:42] <andreasn> troy_s: new version of fyre released recently with a new icon, abiword in the works, and some other apps having new icons
[03:42] <ROBOd> troy_s: and ... since some users like the kubuntu theme. i also suggest that you guys provide a theme for gnome which tries to look the same as the kde-default one
[03:43] <troy_s> in the end
[03:43] <ROBOd> troy_s: who's mark? email address?
[03:43] <AnAnt> troy_s: so I can tell him (mark) that the old splash was better ?
[03:43] <troy_s> kubuntu, edubuntu, and xubuntu
[03:43] <troy_s> are COMPLETELY different projects from Ubuntu
[03:43] <troy_s> mark controls Ubuntu far more strictly than those other versions
[03:43] <troy_s> _far_ more strictly.
[03:43] <andreasn> ROBOd: as soon as the naming-spec get implemented correctly I think that will be fixed
[03:43] <ROBOd> troy_s: other spinoffs are "different". but kubuntu isn't just *any* spinoff
[03:44] <troy_s> andreasn can you email me privately re that?  as in the 'ideal' format for an icons set?
[03:44] <andreasn> ROBOd: just need a easy way to set all the apps, regardless of toolkit to use a theme/set
[03:44] <ROBOd> troy_s: ubuntu people can't seriously expect users to stay in a gnome-only box, or kubuntu users only in a kde-box
[03:44] <troy_s> robod:  believe me, Ubuntu is completely different from the others.
[03:44] <troy_s> i think dividing things into gnome / kde is folly for the free software community
[03:44] <troy_s> they are nothing but window managers
[03:45] <ROBOd> yep
[03:45] <troy_s> and your _average_ user -- the folks we want to get involved -- don't care about
[03:45] <AnAnt> troy_s: what's mark's email ?
[03:45] <troy_s> both.
[03:45] <troy_s> anant:  he is very transparent with it.
[03:45] <troy_s> try launchpad.
[03:45] <andreasn> troy_s: you mean with the spec and stuff?
[03:45] <ROBOd> troy_s: exactly, most users don't care. they want a consistent interface
[03:45] <troy_s> andreasn: yes
[03:45] <troy_s> robod:  100% agreement with you
[03:45] <ROBOd> and kubuntu is *very* important
[03:45] <andreasn> troy_s: sure
[03:46] <troy_s> robod:  well... yes and no.  i think people care that when they move their mouse it moves etc
[03:46] <troy_s> andreasn:  thanks a bunch
[03:46] <troy_s> also andreasn, ship me your private thoughts on how it 'should be done'
[03:46] <ROBOd> andreasn: yes, selecting tangerine icons in kde <kde3.5.5 was still using the blue icons for folders and some more
[03:46] <andreasn> troy_s: I don't know all the details though, a lot of stuff still in the works
[03:46] <ROBOd> andreasn: sorry for the late reply
[03:46] <troy_s> andreasn:  what you know and where to watch
[03:46] <andreasn> ROBOd: what about using tango-icon-theme then?
[03:47] <AnAnt> troy_s: how can I find him on LP?
[03:47] <troy_s> sorry guys, must run off to pay the rent :)
[03:47] <troy_s> be good.
[03:47] <ROBOd> andreasn: the problem is now the folder icons look bad
[03:47] <troy_s> take care.
[03:47] <troy_s> keep your eyes peeled for fschoep
[03:47] <troy_s> he will be in here soon
[03:47] <ROBOd> andreasn: i always used the tangerine icon theme
[03:47] <troy_s> and he has far more insight into the whole affair than i.
[03:47] <ROBOd> i just want a human theme, with a colour scheme and everything
[03:47] <ROBOd> shouldn't be that much :P
[03:47] <AnAnt> doh, what's his name
[03:48] <AnAnt> there are many Mark's ther
[03:48] <andreasn> ROBOd: do they have a weird gradient?
[03:48] <ROBOd> i myself use gnome, but i also use amarok, quanta, kolourpaint and some more
[03:48] <ROBOd> andreasn: yeah, dark grid-line
[03:48] <ROBOd> top left corner
[03:49] <ROBOd> where they should be glass-white or whatever
[03:49] <andreasn> ROBOd: screenshot?
[03:49] <ROBOd> i could make a screenshot
[03:49] <ROBOd> but i really gtg now :(
[03:49] <ROBOd> be back later ... will provide a screenshot soon
[03:49] <andreasn> sure, I'll probably be around
[03:49] <andreasn> catch you later
[03:50] <ROBOd> i'll let you know when i'm back
[03:55] <mhb> hi all
[03:55] <effraie> ho, alone
[03:55] <mhb> what's the situation about Edgy artwork? I read about a decision to use Dapper artwork in Edgy, is it true?
[03:55] <effraie> no
[03:56] <mhb> good :o)
[03:56] <effraie> the situation totally fixed yet, but edgy would have specific artwork
[03:56] <effraie> have a look to the topic links
[03:56] <effraie> situation /is not /
[03:57] <mhb> effraie: yeah, I guess so
[03:57] <nysosym> re
[03:57] <mhb> effraie: IMO it's a bit absurd with all the phases and all, and at the end there is little done
[03:58] <effraie> it's not absurd.. it's a human complex process...
[03:59] <effraie> art team is young, & open. join us, if you've got any ideas
[04:00] <mhb> effraie: I've been monitoring progress from Dapper to Edgy, but I'm sadly no artist
[04:01] <effraie> many of us are not artist ;) i'm not
[04:01] <mhb> effraie: I have a lot of work now with my other teams (czech l10n and kubuntu testers) so I can't help much :(
[04:01] <effraie> ;)
[04:08] <frandavid100> hi andreas
[04:08] <frandavid100> are you there?
[04:09] <frandavid100> andreasn I'm the guy who mailed you about the cancel and apply icons
[04:09] <andreasn> hey there
[04:09] <andreasn> I haven't asked the maintainer about the issue yet I'm afraid :(
[04:10] <frandavid100> oopsie
[04:10] <frandavid100> what's your opinion on the issue anyway?
[04:11] <andreasn> I discussed it with dholbach and lapo a while back before removing the icons, and we agreed that we shouldn't put these icons in tango-common
[04:11] <andreasn> but rather fix it in gnome-icon-theme and tango-icon-theme
[04:12] <andreasn> upstream
[04:12] <frandavid100> I can't really tell the difference
[04:12] <frandavid100> why gnome and tango but not tango-common?
[04:13] <andreasn> there were a lot of bugs about the metaphors
[04:13] <frandavid100> AFAIK tango common affects tango and tangerine, right?
[04:13] <andreasn> yes
[04:13] <frandavid100> and tango does not affect tangerine
[04:13] <frandavid100> but gnome does
[04:13] <andreasn> and not just a couple of bugs, but a lot of people were outright confused about the cancel icon
[04:14] <andreasn> tangerine falls back on tango
[04:14] <frandavid100> yeah you mean the yellow one right?
[04:14] <andreasn> and tango falls back on gnome
[04:14] <andreasn> yes, that one
[04:14] <frandavid100> I read that
[04:14] <frandavid100> but the one I was proposing was not that one
[04:14] <andreasn> hm, perhaps I missed that e-mail
[04:15] <frandavid100> I agree that one could be confusing... it's more "revert" than "cancel"
[04:15] <andreasn> I can send you the icons so you can install them in ~/.icons if you want to
[04:16] <frandavid100> but the cancel icon I sent was a red cross... not a yellow arrow
[04:16] <frandavid100> I guess we keep the metaphor if we include it
[04:16] <andreasn> hold on, I'll see if I can dig that e-mail up
[04:16] <frandavid100> thanks
[04:17] <andreasn> apart from the color, the cross is very similar to the close-icon though
[04:19] <frandavid100> well it's a red cross... it has to be
[04:19] <andreasn> what would we use for close then?
[04:19] <frandavid100> anyway I guess the color stands out clearly enough to tell them apart
[04:20] <andreasn> not if you have impared color vision
[04:20] <frandavid100> that's what I was going to say yeah
[04:20] <andreasn> or are in a hurry, it's easy to mix them up
[04:21] <andreasn> and if it was used in a hospital, people would die
[04:21] <frandavid100> what can be done about it then?
[04:21] <andreasn> we need to figure out distinctive shapes
[04:22] <andreasn> the yellow arrow was distinctive from the close-cross, but the metaphor was weird
[04:22] <frandavid100> so it would be, either change the shape for cancel or the one for close
[04:23] <andreasn> yes
[04:23] <frandavid100> dunno which one would make more sense though
[04:23] <andreasn> and the cross for close is similar to the cross for closing windows
[04:23] <frandavid100> I guess the cross makes more sense with cancel, since it's opposed to apply
[04:24] <andreasn> but then we need to change the icon for closing windows as well
[04:24] <frandavid100> and the cross and tick symbols are widely applied as opposites
[04:25] <frandavid100> One being "yes" or "true" and the other "no" or "false"
[04:25] <andreasn> a possible way out of the problem would be to solve it in a similar way that the other two operating systems dominating the market does
[04:25] <frandavid100> what would that be?
[04:26] <andreasn> neither windows nor osx use any icons in their dialog-buttons
[04:26] <frandavid100> but that DOES lead to errors
[04:26] <frandavid100> it lead me many a time at least
[04:27] <frandavid100> anyway, how would we have to change the red cross so it's not so similar to close?
[04:28] <frandavid100> since the current cancel is a red cross too
[04:28] <andreasn> by using a completley different shape
[04:28] <frandavid100> should we make it more closed, like the current?
[04:29] <frandavid100> the one we have now is not completely different though
[04:29] <andreasn> perhaps I should bring this up on the tango-artists mailing list
[04:29] <frandavid100> that would be cool
[04:30] <andreasn> few of the tango developers are subscribed to the ubuntu-art list
[04:30] <frandavid100> I could raise the question in the forums to see if anyone comes up with a good cancel or close metaphor
[04:30] <andreasn> are you subscribed to that list?
[04:30] <frandavid100> I'm no artist so I can do little more
[04:30] <frandavid100> nope
[04:31] <frandavid100> but I'm interested, how can I subscribe?
[04:31] <andreasn> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/tango-artists
[04:31] <frandavid100> there I go
[04:32] <andreasn> always good to have input from people other than the regular bunch, all tangled up in our old sort of thinking
[04:32] <andreasn> :)
[04:33] <frandavid100> what abut the apply button? Everything's fine with it I take it?
[04:33] <andreasn> yeah, I don't see any problems with that one
[04:34] <frandavid100> and the accept one?
[04:34] <frandavid100> I didn't send that, it was in previous versions
[04:34] <andreasn> I'm thinking there must be some reason they aren't in the regular set yet...
[04:34] <frandavid100> I guess the problem was:
[04:34] <andreasn> I'm fairly new to this stuff compared to the maintainer
[04:35] <frandavid100> they don't like people using "accept" and "cancel" buttons
[04:35] <frandavid100> because they're too generic
[04:35] <andreasn> they are quite generic, yes
[04:35] <andreasn> so I guess there is a bit of interface politics there :)
[04:36] <frandavid100> they say it would be better to use "print", "send", you know, more specific commands
[04:36] <andreasn> yes, that usually helps a bunch more in many apps
[04:36] <frandavid100> so using those ugly icons would be a way to get app devs to get rid of those buttons and use diffrent ones
[04:37] <andreasn> yes
[04:37] <andreasn> pretty evil ;)
[04:37] <frandavid100> it is
[04:37] <andreasn> I think there are some places where OK and Apply makes sense to use though
[04:37] <frandavid100> of course, I don't fully get this metaphor stuff and then we have the language barrier, so it could be something totally different
[04:38] <andreasn> how do you mean with the language barrier?
[04:39] <frandavid100> I'm not an english speaker, so when people get too technical I have a hard time following them
[04:39] <andreasn> what about using the system in your native language then?
[04:40] <frandavid100> doesn't help in conversation with the devs, rather the other way round
[04:40] <andreasn> ah, yeah
[04:41] <frandavid100> since I don't know what the correct terms are, and I end up having problems to understand AND to make myself clear
[04:41] <andreasn> ah, yeah
[04:42] <andreasn> I run in to that issue myself from time to time
[04:42] <andreasn> but about metaphor, it's the thing you think of when you see the image
[04:42] <frandavid100> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/human-icon-theme/+bug/60424 take a look at this bug
[04:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 60424 in tango-icon-theme-common "GTK default icons used in several places" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[04:43] <frandavid100> wow man it was YOU explaining the issue lol
[04:44] <andreasn> heh, yes
[04:44] <frandavid100> I'm so in shame now
[04:44] <frandavid100> haha
[04:44] <andreasn> don't worry about it
[04:44] <andreasn> I have been thinking about the issue for quite some time
[04:45] <andreasn> I better go make some errands before it becomes to late
[04:46] <andreasn> later!
[04:46] <frandavid100> see you later andreas
[04:46] <frandavid100> I'll do some work too, see you later guys
[05:05] <nysosym> yes
[05:07] <PingunZ> nysosym, Is this permanent // why ?
[05:08] <nysosym> PingunZ: it seems to be permanent, because no artwork matches with marks specifications
[05:08] <PingunZ> I'm kinda pissed atm
[05:08] <PingunZ> so .. cya :)
[05:09] <nysosym> lol
[05:10] <nysosym> hi Viper550
[05:10] <Viper550> you saw this? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/usplash-theme-ubuntu/+bug/64819
[05:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 64819 in usplash-theme-ubuntu "[Edgy]  Usplash should use black background" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
[05:15] <PingunZ> Cooled down -_-
[05:15] <nysosym> ^^
[05:15] <nysosym> ok wb
[05:16] <PingunZ> I guess there is nobody here that likes the revert ?
[05:16] <Viper550> revert?
[05:16] <PingunZ> Yes .. Edgy will use dapper's art
[05:16] <Viper550> WHAT THE F-WORD?!?!?!
[05:16] <PingunZ> Indeed
[05:17] <PingunZ> I don't know if the kde / xfce version are reverted too
[05:17] <Viper550> no, just Ubuntu, kwwii worked hard on the new purple so it stays.
[05:17] <PingunZ> nysosym, It's not a joke right ?
[05:18] <Viper550> no, it isn't. But I do have an idea, I am going to make some new failsafe products
[05:18] <nysosym> there are many many very good works, but mark has some specifications for edgy, he like as good as every work. But there es nothing (not 100%) what would be match with his specifications :D
[05:18] <PingunZ> If Edgy uses Dapper's art I'm going to quit this team and look for another distro
[05:19] <PingunZ> And I'm not joking
[05:19] <nysosym> hey
[05:19] <PingunZ> Not that I made a lot of things ( like troy or who ) but .. darn .. I'm really pissed
[05:20] <Viper550> what program was it made with
[05:20] <PingunZ> Viper550, ?
[05:20] <Viper550> the wallpaper?
[05:20] <nysosym> i personally think, that the dapper artwork wouldn't be the final artwork for edgy, because there are too many problems with the community ^^
[05:21] <Viper550> I've decided to make some new failsafe wallpapers in Dapper's style...BUT with a new design
[05:21] <PingunZ> I hope mark was drunk when he told his crew to revert the artwork
[05:22] <nysosym> good work Viper550 :)
[05:22] <Viper550> well, at least if this does become final, my port of Dapper's usplash will be useful
[05:23] <PingunZ> Viper550, Respect, you keep being motivated ..
[05:24] <Viper550> how you link up a path in gimp again? i sorta forgot
[05:25] <Viper550> nm
[05:25] <nysosym> i think the artwork is the thing with the most priority in a BS (especially today). Because the artwork is the first who any people looks, and change in her mind "good" or "bad". A good artwork is the half way to more popularity :D
[05:27] <nysosym> (have a look on Windows Vista, the best example for only a good artwork and nothing new in the background :D
[05:29] <Viper550> umm, Windows Vista has alot new in the BG, even worse - animated wallpapers anyone?
[05:35] <Viper550> how big are widescreen walls on ubuntu?
[05:36] <PingunZ> But I'm not sure
[05:37] <PingunZ> Can't we like .. mail Mark to tell him we hate his decision ? :D
[05:44] <Viper550> they might be bringing up the artwork thing in the meeting?
[05:48] <Viper550> kwwii: Big ubuntu shocker - dapper artwork only! no new artwork for Edgy Ubuntu! Kubuntu and Xubuntu are safe.
[05:48] <kwwii> Viper550: the first I heard of that was today
[05:48] <kwwii> thank god kubuntu looks nice :-)
[05:49] <kwwii> Viper550: was this announced somewhere?
[05:49] <Viper550> package changelogs, and community outcry
[05:50] <kwwii> wow
[05:50] <ROBOd> i am back
[05:51] <kwwii> and I thought the whole point was to get something, perhaps not quite done, but good enough as a basis to start making edgy+1
[05:55] <PingunZ> kwwii, totally agree on that
[05:55] <PingunZ> We need a kwwii clone for gnome ..
[05:55] <kwwii> lol
[05:55] <PingunZ> Like lokheed :)
[05:55] <PingunZ> kwwii, Can't you swith to gnome-art ? :D
[05:56] <kwwii> PingunZ: actually, I started off making artwork for Gnome ;-)
[05:56] <PingunZ> woah .. where can I see it ?
[05:56] <kwwii> I should get away from being so desktop-specific
[05:56] <kwwii> PingunZ: in lots of 7 year old gnome packages (and all the suse gnome stuff up till a year ago
[05:57] <kwwii> )
[05:57] <PingunZ> Oh yeah .. you're the suse-guy
[05:57] <ROBOd2> i'm back
[05:57] <kwwii> was the suse-guy
[05:57] <PingunZ> Can't you port all suse art to ubuntu :)
[05:57] <ROBOd2> andreasn: are you around?
[05:57] <ROBOd2> got the screenshot
[05:57] <PingunZ> I did it .. my desky looks like suse :p
[05:58] <kwwii> lol
[05:59] <PingunZ> kwwii, http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39902155/ :)
[05:59] <Viper550> this should be the new wallpaper - has a nice Dapperish like vibe to it while still being modern... http://bay01.imagebay.com/bay.php?view=7946_ubuntu-glow-standard.jpg
[06:00] <PingunZ> Viper550, I don't really like that
[06:00] <Viper550> why?
[06:00] <andreasn> ROBOd2: doing the dishes right now, something urgent?
[06:01] <kwwii> PingunZ: hehe, that is pretty wild - looks nice though
[06:01] <PingunZ> Thanks :)
[06:01] <PingunZ> Viper550, Can I tell you later I goto go ;)
[06:01] <ROBOd2> andreasn: not urgent. it's just what we talked about, the tangerine icons in kde 3.5.5, kubuntu
[06:02] <andreasn> ah, yes
[06:02] <Viper550> anyone else wanna crituque?
[06:02] <ROBOd2> andreasn: when you have time, please let me know
[06:02] <kwwii> Viper550: that seems to be like another of those pics that looks neat at a small size, but has too much contrast and lines in it for full-screen
[06:02] <kwwii> Viper550: my opinion only, of course
[06:02] <PingunZ> but Viper550 I can tell you .. its a but .. painful for the eyes and .. not really nice imo
[06:02] <andreasn> ROBOd2: sure, need to take care of the kitchen before my girlfriend comes home :)
[06:02] <ROBOd2> andreasn: :)
[06:03] <Viper550> too bright?
[06:04] <kwwii> Viper550: way too much contrast for a default wallpaper
[06:10] <Viper550> I lowered the contrast a bit... http://bay01.imagebay.com/full_view.php?view=7947_ubuntu-glow-standard.jpg
[06:13] <kwwii> Viper550: the contrast is better, but I am still not so big on the lines...they seem to distract me eye
[06:15] <Viper550> it's the trademark curve!
[06:27] <andreasn> ROBOd2: so, let's see now, tangerine looks weird on kubuntu
[06:28] <andreasn> ROBOd2: I think there is a set on kde-look.org that can fix that
[06:29] <andreasn> ROBOd2: try this one out: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=44533
[06:29] <ROBOd2> andreasn: PM for link
[06:29] <ROBOd2> to the screenshot i have
[06:29] <ROBOd2> andreasn: as you can see...
[06:29] <ROBOd2> the kde icons look pretty bad
[06:30] <ROBOd2> the dark gridlines i talked about
[06:30] <andreasn> ROBOd2: I can't see your private message
[06:30] <andreasn> ROBOd2: are you logged in on freenode?
[06:30] <ROBOd2> oh
[06:30] <ROBOd2> no :(
[06:30] <ROBOd2> i got your message
[06:30] <kwwii> I like an orange KDE ;-)
[06:31] <ROBOd2> wait
[06:31] <andreasn> kwwii: orange is a totally wild color
[06:31] <kwwii> andreasn: yes, definitely...perhaps not the right color for the desktop
[06:31] <ROBOd> done
[06:31] <andreasn> kwwii: btw, will you be at LGM2 in Montreal in March?
[06:32] <kwwii> LGM2? what is that?
[06:32] <kwwii> ahhh
[06:32] <kwwii> libre graphics, I guess
[06:32] <andreasn> Libre Graphics Meeting
[06:32] <andreasn> the same as in Lyon
[06:32] <kwwii> that would be really cool, yeah
[06:32] <ROBOd> andreasn: now, my wish is this needs to be fixed ;)
[06:32] <ROBOd> i like the tangerine icons
[06:32] <kwwii> andreasn: only it'll cost me a thousand dollars just to get there
[06:33] <ROBOd> andreasn: loaded?
[06:33] <andreasn> kwwii: can't you get canonial to sponsor you or something?
[06:34] <kwwii> andreasn: canonical does not usually sponsor that kind of thing, but I could ask :p
[06:35] <andreasn> kwwii: never hurts :=
[06:35] <andreasn> :)
[06:35] <andreasn> kwwii: would be cool to meet in person
[06:36] <kwwii> andreasn: yeah, that is the best part about conferences...actually meeting the people
[06:36] <andreasn> totally
[06:36] <kwwii> I guess I could come as an Oxygen sponsor (get KDE to pay)
[06:37] <andreasn> yeah, that would be worth a try
[06:37] <andreasn> I beg for tickets from the gnome foundation all the time ;)
[06:39] <kwwii> hehe
[06:39] <andreasn> it works from time to time :)
[06:40] <andreasn> "yes, whatever, you can go there then, just shut up!"
[06:40] <kwwii> yeah, I have actually had good luck with getting them to pay for things this year, perhaps I can make it
[06:40] <kwwii> we'll see
[06:41] <kwwii> thanks for mentioning it :-)
[06:44] <PingunZ> Ok, I've been doing some thinking .. I'm going to propose a themeteam for edgy+1
[06:44] <PingunZ> I'll try to do some mockups etc tonight :)
[06:45] <PingunZ> Is the pixmap gtk engine slower / worse then normal engines ?
[06:47] <effraie> PingunZ: i just saw your screenshot (susified) what metacity did you use? i'm looking for it since 2 hours...
[06:47] <kwwii> probably
[06:47] <PingunZ> effraie, That is a compiz theme I made myself :)
[06:47] <effraie> arf..
[06:47] <PingunZ> its on gnome look -> xristal
[06:48] <effraie> no metacity port?
[06:48] <PingunZ> No .. sorry
[06:48] <PingunZ> effraie, Is your pc slow ?
[06:48] <effraie> no, it's a ppc
[06:49] <PingunZ> Oh wait .. I just realise :)
[06:49] <PingunZ> On that screenshot I'm using Gilouche
[06:49] <PingunZ> Ported to compiz .. but the original is a metacity
[06:49] <effraie> yes, but i can't found gilouche metacity on gnome-look..
[06:49] <PingunZ> Hmm
[06:49] <PingunZ> what's your email adress ?
[06:50] <effraie> effraie@gmail.com (normal times, it's apinc.org, but apinc is in panic mode that week
[06:50] <PingunZ> effraie, You could download the MurrinaGilouche gtk theme
[06:50] <PingunZ> it takes care of the metacity as well :)
[06:50] <PingunZ> I'm using it :)
[06:50] <effraie> ok
[06:53] <effraie> PingunZ: that's what i was waiting: no metacity included
[06:53] <PingunZ> O_o
[06:53] <PingunZ> Are you sure you have the murinna engine installed ?
[06:54] <effraie> yes
[06:55] <PingunZ> gimme a sec, I'll mail it to you
[06:55] <effraie> thanks
[06:57] <PingunZ> effraie, this is the one you installed http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=44510 ?
[06:58] <effraie> yes, i'm using it right now
[06:58] <PingunZ> effraie, And you installed the latest murinna engine ? http://cimi.netsons.org/media/download_gallery/murrine/gtk2-engines-murrine_0.12-1_i386.deb
[06:58] <effraie> i'm on ppc
[06:58] <PingunZ> Because .. I'm pretty sure the metacity is included in that theme
[06:58] <effraie> so i build engine from sources
[06:59] <effraie> PingunZ: just untar the theme
[06:59] <PingunZ> effraie, http://cimi.netsons.org/media/download_gallery/murrine/murrine-0.13.tar.bz2 Here's the source :)
[06:59] <effraie> i used the just previous (0.12)
[07:00] <effraie> i'll build the 0.13
[07:00] <effraie> but can you send the metacity btw?
[07:00] <PingunZ> I sent it
[07:00] <effraie> thankx
[07:00] <PingunZ> But I'm  not sure it'll work
[07:01] <effraie> i'll try
[07:03] <effraie> PingunZ: it work ;)
[07:03] <PingunZ> And .. ?
[07:03] <PingunZ> Like it ? :)
[07:03] <effraie> yes ;)
[07:04] <effraie> just one question : is it normal that my scrollbars are dark grey?
[07:05] <PingunZ> no :p
[07:06] <effraie> so i'll buld the 0.13 for ppc now ;)
[07:07] <PingunZ> effraie,
[07:07] <PingunZ> $ ./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-animation
[07:07] <PingunZ> $ make
[07:07] <PingunZ> and then as root:
[07:07] <PingunZ> # make install
[07:07] <effraie> ok
[07:07] <PingunZ> Oh .. I'm soo exited .. I'm working on a theme-team proposal for Edgy+1
[07:12] <PingunZ> Hmm .. What could I pick as main color : Green, Blue, Orange, Gray, .. ?
[07:12] <frandavid100> hi again
[07:13] <frandavid100> andreasn: are you around?
[07:13] <PingunZ> hey frandavid100
[07:13] <frandavid100> hi PingunZ
[07:13] <frandavid100> I was working for a while on that cancel icon
[07:14] <effraie> PingunZ: green
[07:14] <effraie> i never see a green ubuntu theme
[07:14] <effraie> gray is fine too
[07:14] <PingunZ> effraie, I doubt between green -> lime , fresh or orange
[07:14] <frandavid100> modifying it a bit it has the same shape as the old cancel icon... could you guys take a look at it?
[07:15] <PingunZ> I'm going to start a vote on ubuntuforums :)
[07:15] <frandavid100> what's about the colors PingunZ?
[07:15] <effraie> ;)
[07:15] <PingunZ> frandavid100, I'm going to propose a themeteam for edgy+1 -> I need a main colour :)
[07:15] <frandavid100> I'd go for green yeah
[07:15] <PingunZ> That 3 votes :)
[07:15] <frandavid100> in fact I usually use outdoors and a green BG
[07:16] <kwwii> I have soooo much experience making green themes
[07:16] <frandavid100> orange is cool but it can get to your nerves after a while, green is more relaxing
[07:16] <kwwii> true
[07:16] <PingunZ> kwwii, Could you help mee in this themeteam :)
[07:16] <frandavid100> not lime-green though
[07:17] <frandavid100> please take a look at those:
[07:17] <frandavid100> http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9441/dialogcancel2kh1.gif
[07:17] <frandavid100> http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3404/pantallazoepiphany3nb3.png
[07:17] <PingunZ> frandavid100, I'm open for suggestions :)
[07:17] <PingunZ> frandavid100, Too dark imo
[07:18] <PingunZ> I'll be making a fresh look that's sure
[07:18] <frandavid100> I can give you a screenie of my desktop for you to see the tone I like
[07:18] <PingunZ> Go ahead
[07:19] <frandavid100> just hold on for a sec, imageshack seems a bit slow today
[07:19] <PingunZ> frandavid100, http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39902254/ :)
[07:19] <PingunZ> http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39902155/
[07:19] <frandavid100> blue theme?
[07:20] <frandavid100> weren't we away from those?
[07:20] <PingunZ> frandavid100, I'm just used to it :)
[07:20] <frandavid100> I mean I like them, but they're used by windows and macOS
[07:20] <frandavid100> http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1733/pantallazo1vn9.png
[07:21] <frandavid100> see, it's a soft green tone, kinda like moss
[07:22] <frandavid100> doesn't catch your eye too much but you can look at it all day
[07:22] <PingunZ> nice
[07:22] <frandavid100> I can't see your second link BTW
[07:22] <frandavid100> :?
[07:23] <PingunZ> Its just like the first link I gave you .. just without the cube :)
[07:23] <frandavid100> ooh right
[07:23] <frandavid100> I like it really
[07:23] <frandavid100> I always thought a blue theme should be added, even if only as an option
[07:24] <PingunZ> frandavid100, Blubuntu ;)
[07:24] <frandavid100> not as default cause it's not very distinctive, but people like blue, they're used to it as you say
[07:24] <PingunZ> I will be in edgy afaik
[07:24] <frandavid100> that's good news
[07:25] <frandavid100> you said the cross was too dark right?
[07:25] <frandavid100> give me a sec to fix it
[07:34] <PingunZ> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=276152
[07:35] <frandavid100> take a look at it PingunZ
[07:35] <frandavid100> http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pantallazopreferenciasfy6.png
[07:35] <frandavid100> http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8954/pantallazopreferencias2vq7.png
[07:36] <PingunZ> not bad frandavid100 .. But still .. A little too dark for me :)
[07:37] <frandavid100> still too dark? O__o
[07:37] <PingunZ> Its a real nice theme .. But I need my theme to be bright :)
[07:37] <PingunZ> Shiny .. Fresh :)
[07:37] <frandavid100> well it could be made lighter... I just don't want to stray too much from the original one
[07:44] <frandavid100> PingunZ: maybe you should link example images
[07:45] <frandavid100> for people to decide what they like the most
[07:45] <PingunZ> Bah .. I just want to see what the mainstream likes most
[07:46] <frandavid100> http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1258/pantallazopreferencias2me2.png
[07:47] <frandavid100> the accept one is very CHEAP but you get the idea how it would look
[07:49] <frandavid100> anyway, do you think that the cancel one looks too much like the close icon?
[08:05] <frandavid100> just a question about the revert to dapper art... is it provisional or is it going to be definitive
[08:05] <frandavid100> I mean, what do you want to do? polish the dapper theme? just leave it as it is?
[08:14] <Viper550> So my wall would look better with no lines?
[08:18] <ROBOd> link
[08:18] <ROBOd> :)
[08:31] <n8k99> hi fschoep!
[08:31] <fschoep> hi
[08:31] <fschoep> hi n8k99
[08:32] <n8k99> sorry about all the trouble with the moderation
[08:32] <fschoep> ML moderation is going better now eh :)
[08:32] <fschoep> no problem
[08:32] <fschoep> I'm glad everything's going fine now
[08:32] <n8k99> yeah, so much easier when you have access!!! ;)
[08:32] <fschoep> ;)
[08:32] <Viper550> I heard there was going to be work on a new usplash?
[08:32] <fschoep> There's a storm incoming right now
[08:33] <Viper550> yes...severe stroms in the area, edgy users are advised to stay in their homes and lock down their artwork packages
[08:34] <fschoep> oh dear ;)
[08:34] <Viper550> :D just had to!
[08:34] <n8k99> viper550 are you talking about the reversion?
[08:34] <Viper550> Well, if we're going to be using Dapper's art now, why can't you use my port of Dapper's splash I made?
[08:34] <Viper550> n8k99: yes
[08:35] <fschoep> brb
[08:37] <n8k99> I think it just means we have a super good head start for edgy+1
[08:51] <frandavid100> hi again
[09:02] <Squee> Anyone know what happend with edgy's art?
[09:05] <Viper550> we all know
[09:06] <Squee> ok, can anybody tell me?
[09:11] <andreasn> frandavid100: Totoro!
[09:11] <frandavid100> hi andreas
[09:11] <andreasn> sorry for the delay, had dinner
[09:12] <frandavid100> I've done a couple mockups to make that icon look like the former one, and I think it resembles it more than the close button now
[09:13] <frandavid100> it's a bit cheap cause I used gimp, but you'll get the idea
[09:13] <andreasn> http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1258/pantallazopreferencias2me2.png ?
[09:14] <andreasn> ah, cool
[09:14] <frandavid100> yeah that's right
[09:14] <frandavid100> I'm quite sure anyone who mistakes that would mistake the current one too
[09:14] <frandavid100> they have the same exact shape
[09:15] <andreasn> yeah, we want to be better than current though
[09:15] <andreasn> anyway, join #tango and share your thoughts
[09:15] <andreasn> perhaps someone else than me can offer some thoughts on the issue
[09:19] <msikma> Hmm, that cancel icon looks odd
[09:20] <msikma> The other ones are not crooked at all, but this one is. And very strongly.
[09:21] <zorglu_> q. is edgy include a theme to make it look blue like dapper ?
[09:22] <frandavid100> yeah msikma it mimics the current cancel icon, so it doesn't resemble the cancel button
[09:31] <msikma> frandavid100: it shouldn't. The Gnome cancel button was made to appear like a script x. This is not a script x. It's a normal, geometric x.
[09:31] <msikma> That's what I feel, anyway.
[09:31] <msikma> I think it would look a lot better--and more balanced--to set it straight. It looks a little awkward right now.
[09:32] <msikma> Since it's neither a script x nor a geometric sans-serif x.
[09:32] <frandavid100> I'm afraid I don't know what a script x is
[09:32] <msikma> Ballot x.
[09:32] <msikma> 
[09:33] <frandavid100> the problem with a straight x is people could mistake it for the close icon
[09:33] <n8k99> kwwii: if i run update, am I gonna lose my kubuntu artwork?
[09:34] <msikma> frandavid100: the close icon is at the top-right of the window. The cancel icon isn't.
[09:34] <msikma> It's a fallacy to say that "people will mistake it". I find it very hard to believe.
[09:35] <frandavid100> there are close buttons at the bottom right too
[09:35] <frandavid100> big grey cross
[09:35] <frandavid100> straight cross
[09:36] <kwwii> n8k99: the kubuntu artwork is not being reverted
[09:36] <Squee> #join #openwrt
[09:36] <msikma> My concern here is consistency. The x does not seem very consistent with the "aplicar" icon. It's made to look like a sans-serif x, but is crooked. To me, it seems like a bad thing. Both using the typeface [in vain]  and breaking what appears to be a good balance.
[09:37] <AnAnt> is mark here ?
[09:37] <msikma> No.
[09:37] <AnAnt> what is his username in LP ?
[09:37] <msikma> I'm not sure, sorry.
[09:37] <AnAnt> or his full name ?
[09:38] <frandavid100> I totally agree with you, I'm just trying a suitable cancel button to be accepted in time for edgy
[09:38] <msikma> frandavid100: I think that it's a very nice cancel button. Much nicer than the stuff that's in Human.
[09:38] <msikma> I'd pick it over the current default anytime.
[09:39] <msikma> I'd still like it better if it were a "normal" x, though.
[09:39] <msikma> Or maybe you could try making the x more like an actual ballot x, like this one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Vote_icon.svg
[09:39] <frandavid100> http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6092/dialogcancellu1.png take a look at the original one
[09:39] <msikma> Oh
[09:39] <msikma> That's the original Tango one?
[09:39] <AnAnt> ok, if I want to suggest that the old edgy-gdm-theme was better than the new one (which is actually dapper's). Do I file a bug on edgy-gdm-theme ??
[09:40] <msikma> Well, I'm sorry, but I like that one better. I just think that it makes more sense to have a non-ballot x be "normal".
[09:41] <frandavid100> I agree with you, but it looks like the art team doesn't want such similar icons
[09:42] <msikma> I've decided that I shouldn't bother with the artwork team too much anymore for a while. I intend to work on new art after Edgy.
[09:42] <msikma> This cycle has failed for me.
[09:42] <n8k99> kwwii:oh that's pretty swell
[09:42] <andreasn> oh, it wasn't the art team
[09:42] <andreasn> it was rather tango upstream
[09:42] <msikma> I'm disappointed in some of the higher-ups involved, and that's why I don't feel like working hard to try and get some of my work in for Edgy.
[09:43] <msikma> But that's how it goes.
[09:43] <frandavid100> we're all a bit disappointed I think
[09:44] <msikma> Well, same old.
[09:44] <frandavid100> the art revert was a big disappointment for me at least
[09:44] <msikma> Who hasn't done graphic jobs for people who know absolutely nothing about graphic design but think that they know everything about graphic design?
[09:45] <n8k99> i think the next deadline needs to be a month before 'furious ferret' is released - in order to insure that the additional documentation such as books can be consistent with what is actually put out
[09:45] <msikma> It's a real art to be able to persuade people to go along with your route, but I didn't have the time to try this.
[09:45] <frandavid100> Me, I haven't :P
[09:45] <msikma> frandavid100: then you're either very very lucky or you're new.
[09:46] <n8k99> this cycle was truncated because dapper was pushed back, but our artwork will be more than ready for 'F* F*'
[09:46] <msikma> By the way
[09:46] <msikma> What about Firefox?
[09:46] <msikma> I missed out on the entire debate.
[09:47] <n8k99> !Firefox
[09:47] <frandavid100> msikma: no, I'm just not a graphic artist haha
[09:47] <msikma> So is Ubuntu going to take the extremely non-Ubuntu and non-marketable way of using a Firefox clone just so a few stupid additions could be made?
[09:47] <msikma> (Which is totally not what I'd expect of Ubuntu, but rather of Debian zealots?)
[09:47] <msikma> I mean, I thought Ubuntu was aiming to take over part of the market.
[09:50] <n8k99>  Ubuntu Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customise and alter their software in whatever way they see fit.
[09:50] <msikma> So? There are non-free drivers in Ubuntu.
[09:51] <msikma> Besides, it's not like the software isn't free.
[09:51] <msikma> Firefox is a fully free work of software in every sense of the word.
[09:51] <n8k99> The Mozilla Foundation prohibits the use of the Firefox logo if you alter the code of the web browser - ubuntu alters the code of ff - so honoring MF's request is sutiable
[09:51] <msikma> It's just that Debian feel that somehow the TRADEMARK POLICY of Mozilla makes the code non-free.
[09:51] <msikma> Which is why I object to the modifications.
[09:52] <n8k99> the logo is trade marked and the MPL states the above conditions
[09:52] <msikma> It's just stupid to get a different browser than the most ubiquitous piece of free software in the entire world.
[09:52] <msikma> n8k99: yes, and like I said, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the code.
[09:52] <frandavid100> msikma: what's the alternative?
[09:52] <n8k99> IceWeasel is FF, with new branding-
[09:53] <msikma> n8k99: yes, which is why it's terrible.
[09:53] <msikma> I don't see how you don't see that this is terrible.
[09:53] <frandavid100> the problem n8k99 is we lose the brand
[09:53] <msikma> Have you ever heard of marketing?
[09:53] <msikma> frandavid100 is right.
[09:53] <frandavid100> which is maybe the most important part of having FF
[09:54] <n8k99> i understand the loss of a brand - but the loss of integrity is greater
[09:54] <msikma> It's not like an operating system is something that people will begin to use because it's good. An operating system is something people use because it's brought to their attention in a certain way.
[09:54] <AnAnt> troy_s: u there ?
[09:54] <frandavid100> I totally agree
[09:54] <msikma> n8k99: you're a terrible zealot. The software is free. Completely free. There is no non-free aspect of Firefox. At all. The only thing is that you can't use their trademark if you modify their software.
[09:54] <msikma> It has absolutely nothing to do with integrity.
[09:55] <frandavid100> anyway msikma what else can ubuntu do?
[09:55] <msikma> So Ubuntu has decided to drop a very well-known trademark (I repeat: the most ubiquitous piece of free software in the entire world) for the sake of a few dumb modifications.
[09:55] <msikma> Yes, it can not modify the software.
[09:55] <n8k99> msikma: you are right - i am wrong
[09:55] <msikma> If this were Debian, n8k99, I'd say that you're right.
[09:56] <msikma> But this is Ubuntu.
[09:56] <frandavid100> how important are those modifications anyway?
[09:56] <frandavid100> do they affect performance, or what?
[09:56] <msikma> It's aimed towards getting people to use the system. It's aimed at a general audience. It's not free for the sake of being a free operating system.
[09:56] <n8k99> msikma: however, neither one of us actually makes these decisions
[09:56] <msikma> I feel that the decisions are questioning Ubuntu's positioning strategy.
[09:57] <msikma> In fact, it goes completely against it.
[09:57] <msikma> Yet another reason for me to question why I'd even want to contribute to this project.
[09:57] <n8k99> from my understanding, the changes which are made are security based - but you'd have to get a better description of what and how from someone in #ubuntu-devel
[09:58] <msikma> I don't see how Ubuntu can claim to be a free operating system aimed at a general market and then take this decision. It's completely inconsistent with what they claim that they are.
[09:58] <n8k99> mskima: what is ubuntu's positioning strategy
[09:58] <msikma> Even security-based reasons are not reasons. Ubuntu isn't exactly the hottest item for a hacker to want to try and crack.
[09:59] <frandavid100> have to go guys, take it easy and good night
[09:59] <n8k99> g'night
[09:59] <msikma> Ubuntu's positioning strategy can't really be summed up that easily, but generally, it's a free Linux-based operating system that aims to bring the power of the Unix-like operating systems to the general user.
[10:00] <msikma> I'm going away for a while now.
[10:00] <n8k99> and by rebranding the browser in order to satisfy the requirement of the MPL, how do they not satisfy this position
[10:00] <msikma> n8k99: do you have any idea of what a "general audience" is and wants?
[10:00] <msikma> How does avoiding trademark infringement have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with what I just said?
[10:01] <msikma> Take a marketing course. I don't have the damn time to explain everything to everybody. Just... open up your mind and realize that "free" software (even though this has NOTHING to do with software) isn't always the Great Ideal that all of us chase around like a holy grail.
[10:01] <n8k99> i am pretty sure a general audience just wants their computer to work when they turn it on, they don't really care if its MS, Apple or Linux
[10:01] <msikma> You really are dense.
[10:02] <n8k99> once again, I assert that you are absolutely correct
[10:03] <msikma> And so I am. It doesn't OUTWEIGH the disadvantages. Linux boxes never get hacked. Ubuntu boxes will not either. So go ahead and use your Iceweasel if it makes you feel more free. You have absolutely no idea of how marketing works.
[10:04] <n8k99> so let me get this straight, ubuntu is _doomed_ if they can not use a brand that nobody heard about four years ago.
[10:04] <msikma> I reassert that you know absolutely nothing about marketing and that you should cease to make it appear as though you do.
[10:05] <n8k99> i am not trying to make any appearances, these are questions
[10:06] <n8k99> sorry if i leave capitals and quotations marks off as one hand must hold an infant while i type
[10:06] <msikma> Questions? No, you're trying to waste my damn time by provoking me with sarcastic and rhetoric questions. Of course Ubuntu is not DOOMED. But it is HURTFUL to the marketing strategy to not have Firefox over some stupid silly security fixes that won't be necessary for its target audience anyway!
[10:06] <msikma> I'm out of here.
[10:07] <n8k99> msikma: am sorry to see you leave
[10:42] <cbx33> hi all
[10:42] <cbx33> how do I change the font colour of the Applications./Pleaces/System menu taskbar thingy