[01:34] <bradb_> kiko: back. did you get the branch? last time i tried to show you a live instance it all went wrong.
[01:35] <kiko> bradb_, I could just hand-hack the URLs
[01:35] <kiko> the branch did not arrive yet, no
[01:35] <bradb_> !!
[01:35] <kiko> give me a live demo tomorrow post-meeting ok?
[01:35] <bradb_> kiko: sure
[01:36] <kiko-zzz> time to go bother malcc
[02:00] <mpt> Goooooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!
[02:15] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66838 in soyuz "please review/merge James' rf-dak branch" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66838
[02:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66839 in malone "Should be able to include one or more tags in search" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66839
[02:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66842 in malone "Allow people to have lists of favorite tags" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66842
[04:07] <jamesh> lifeless: I added an alternative db schema for https://launchpad.canonical.com/CompleteBranchRevision -- it is slightly more complex than your one, but would result in a lot less data
[06:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66861 in blueprint ""Approved (Needs guidance)" should not be possible" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66861
[07:45] <minghua> hi, I just got a spam email from malone, is there a place to report such things (maybe to disable the user)?
[07:45] <minghua> it's bug #36505
[07:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36505 in lintian "Ubuntu Lintian shouldn't do the nmu checks" [Wishlist,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/36505
[07:47] <jamesh> minghua: weird.  That user appears to have made non-spam comments previously
[07:48] <jamesh> e.g. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/32157
[07:48] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 32157 in Ubuntu "Doesn't recognize my Linksys WiFi" [Medium,Needs info]  
[07:49] <Nafallo> yea, but a long time ago.
[07:49] <Nafallo> probably a hijacked account
[07:49] <minghua> or automatic mail from virus infected mail client?
[07:49] <jamesh> stu1: are you able to tell if https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/lintian/+bug/36505/comments/9 came in via the web or email?
[07:49] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36505 in lintian "Ubuntu Lintian shouldn't do the nmu checks" [Wishlist,In progress]  
[07:50] <jamesh> minghua: an email with a forged from address could easily add a comment
[07:50] <minghua> I see
[07:50] <jamesh> provided the from address belonged to a registered LP account
[07:51] <Nafallo> aha
[07:56] <jamesh> if it came in via email (as I suspect), we should have a copy of the original message, which would help indicate whether it was forged or not
[07:57] <stub> jamesh: It was an email
[07:58] <jamesh> stub: got a librarian URL for it?
[07:58] <stub> jamesh: Probably an infected computer spamming local address book
[07:59] <stub> High probability since it claims to be from outlook....
[07:59] <jamesh> yep.  And not from gmail ...
[08:00] <jamesh> stub: I wonder how much it would hurt to require some token be maintained in the subject line for comment emails to be accepted?
[08:00] <jamesh> I am thinking of the "[Bug NNNN] " bit
[08:01] <stub> Swings and roundabouts
[08:01] <jamesh> it won't prevent someone who is determined to spam LP
[08:01] <jamesh> but cases like this clearly aren't targetting us in particular
[08:02] <stub> If we go with the token, might as well drop the nnn@bugs.launchpad.net email address and go with bugs@launchpad.net or something.
[08:03] <jamesh> well, using both requires that they match
[08:03] <stub> For what gain?
[08:04] <jamesh> I suppose non-targetted spam isn't likely to produce a correctly formatted subject line to start with, so not much gain
[08:04] <stub> Don't know if the error checking would be worth needing to enter the information twice (for new emails rather than replies). It might catch some, but I think it is diminishing returns.
[08:05] <stub> (catch some human errors that is)
[08:07] <spiv> jamesh: I think it's likely that there is or will be spam viruses that not just use the address book of a victim, but send fake replies to received messages, i.e. harvest addresses and subject lines from the victim.
[08:08] <spiv> I admit that I'm speculating wildly here :)
[08:09] <jamesh> spiv: but how many actually do?
[08:09] <spiv> jamesh: I have no idea... as I say, I'm speculating :)
[08:10] <jamesh> currently the only filter we have in place is "the from: address belong to a valid LP account", which is going to lose effectiveness as more people register accounts
[08:12] <jamesh> stub: the weird thing about that spam email is that it lacks any hyperlinks, even in the HTML version
[08:13] <jamesh> how do you know where to send money for the viagra?
[08:13] <mpt> I've started getting spam that says "don't click, type www.somespammysite.example into your browser"
[08:13] <jamesh> mpt: nothing like that either
[08:14] <jamesh> the HTML just has <A href="">Viagra Soft Tabs</A> and similar
[08:14] <jamesh> with no URL
[08:15] <mpt> Sometimes spammers make mistakes
[08:15] <mpt> Like when they send spam with the subject line "${subject}"
[08:15] <stub> jamesh: I've seen some really broken spam - they lusers who do it seem to test by sending a few thousand from their botnet rather than actually check to see if they have, for example, replaced all their %name% variables with text
[08:16] <stub> No misspelling of Viagra is also odd - trivial for spam traps to catch.
[08:18] <minghua> I also wonder how the spam sender got the target bug address, as the victim LP user is not involved with this bug
[08:18] <minghua> (if we go by the local address book spam theory)
[08:20] <minghua> oh.  I suppose a second user that received mails from this bug and also got some comments from another bug the victim user commented would explain it
[08:32] <lifeless> jamesh: yes, but it also fails to do subgraph queries, and to represent graphs accurately for branches with ghosts
[08:33] <lifeless> jamesh: these may not be fatal, but I feel that its better to start with something precise and work back from that
[08:33] <jamesh> lifeless: subgraph queries?
[08:34] <lifeless> your compressed notation is dependent on knowing the revnos for revisions ids you want to examine
[08:34] <lifeless> i.e. ggetting it to answer 'branches which contain revision id X' requires more work
[08:35] <jamesh> that would be Revision -> IntroducedRevision -> RevisionNumber -> Branch join
[08:35] <jamesh> instead of Revision -> BranchRevision -> Branch
[08:37] <lifeless> also, in terms of 'much less data', I'm not convinced its that big a win - have you done some stats ?
[08:38] <lifeless> we see 3:1 ratio in bzr of 'introduced' to 'mainline revs'
[08:38] <jamesh> provided the ghost issues can be sorted out (I am not sure whether they can be reliably though), you can also answer the question of "in which revno did the revision get introduced?"
[08:38] <lifeless> sure. That doesn't help with dotted decimal notation though AFAICT
[08:38] <lifeless> as merge into is irrelevant for that
[08:39] <jamesh> lifeless: say I branch bzr.dev at r2000
[08:39] <jamesh> lifeless: then the IntroducedRevision rows for all revisions up to r2000 will be shared between bzr.dev and my new branch
[08:41] <jamesh> the bit about dotted revision numbers was that if two branches have $REVID as a mainline revision that all revisions in the ancestry of $REVID would have identical revision numbers on both branches
[08:41] <jamesh> unless I am mistaken
[08:41] <lifeless> in the absence of ghosts this is true
[08:41] <lifeless> we chose number-from-branch-point because of this property in fact
[08:42] <lifeless> because its possible to cache to some degree
[08:43] <carlos> morning
[08:44] <jamesh> lifeless: anyway, if ghosts make the idea unworkable, I guess we can't use it.
[08:46] <lifeless> we'd need to address ghosts somehow
[08:46] <lifeless> not sure if its 'unworkable' at this point
[08:46] <lifeless> I'd like concrete data - say we have 10^5 branches, 10^6 total revisions, what is the performance like in both cases
[08:48] <jamesh> for the bzr.dev case, there are approximately 7500 revisions in the ancestry at r2000
[08:49] <SteveA> morning!
[08:49] <jamesh> so if I create a branch of bzr, that would involve adding 2000 RevisionNumber records (and sharing the existing IntroducedRevisions) vs. adding 7500 new BranchRevision records
[08:49] <lifeless> jamesh: so a 4 fold decrease in the total records
[08:49] <lifeless> jamesh: for an extra indirection
[08:50] <lifeless> on the one hand its cute
[08:50] <lifeless> on the other, I want sabdfl to sign off on anything
[08:50] <lifeless> so we can JFDI
[08:50] <jamesh> I guess it really depends on the shape of the ancestry of the branches we have registered
[08:50] <lifeless> this is a major aspect
[08:51] <lifeless> one thing to consider is that sql == set, this data == graph
[08:51] <jamesh> yep
[08:51] <lifeless> so, we can reduce it to minimal overhead, by storing just the basic data
[08:51] <lifeless> but we have that
[08:52] <jamesh> the other thing to consider is if the extra questions you can answer with the IntroducedRevision data model are worth answering in the context of Launchpad
[08:52] <lifeless> so this is about useful caching
[08:52] <lifeless> what extra questions does it give ?
[08:52] <lifeless> [answers to] 
[08:52] <jamesh> "what revisions were merged in this revno?"
[08:52] <jamesh> "which revno was this revision merged into branch X?"
[08:52] <jamesh> those sort of things
[08:53] <lifeless> hmm
[08:54] <lifeless> I think that the first is possibly useful (and doing it without pull the whole graph is good) - but we can do that without trying to share data [which is where ghosts are a problem] 
[08:54] <lifeless> the second I think is less useful at that precision, but very useful at 'has the revision been merged into branch X'
[08:55] <lifeless> (and more generally, 'have these revisions been merged into those branches'
[08:55] <lifeless> to generate things like 'branch freshness'
[08:55] <lifeless> ideally in a 4 queries for an entire web page
[08:59] <jamesh> so for bzr.dev, the len(ancestry)/len(revision_history) ratio is close to 4, while for Launchpad it is around 3
[09:23] <carlos> jamesh: hi, did you see my email about the core dump while running tests?
[09:25] <_thumper_> morning all
[09:26] <carlos> morning
[09:26] <carlos> lifeless: are you able to restore a production DB mirror in carbon?
[09:27] <carlos> lifeless: seems like langpackdb mirror failed today and we need it working to prepare final language packs for Edgy
[09:31] <seb128> carlos: hi. Could you look what is going on with gnome-app-install template for edgy on rosetta? A new template has been built some days ago, I've asked to danilo to get it out of the queue tuesday and it's still not imported
[09:31] <carlos> did you change the name?
[09:31] <carlos> it should be imported automatically
[09:31] <carlos> let me check...
[09:32] <carlos> I don't see it as pending to be approved or imported...
[09:32] <carlos> In fact, it's already imported
[09:32] <carlos> seb128: https://launchpad.net/rosetta/imports/+index?target=all&status=IMPORTED&type=pot
[09:34] <lifeless> carlos: I can look into it, but I'm not familiar enough with the processes to do it fast-fast-fast. I suggest rining stub is better
[09:34] <lifeless> *ringing*
[09:34] <seb128> carlos: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/gnome-app-install/+pots/gnome-app-install/
[09:34] <carlos> lifeless: well, I know the command that executes the mirror process
[09:34] <seb128> carlos: it still has "Created:  2006-08-22"
[09:35] <carlos> lifeless: https://devpad.canonical.com/~andrew/paste/fileBSCtey.html
[09:36] <carlos> seb128: because it was created on that date, it doesn't note when it was 'updated'
[09:36] <seb128> carlos: graaa
[09:36] <seb128> carlos: 
[09:36] <seb128> gnome-app-install (0.2.21) edgy; urgency=low
[09:36] <seb128>   * fixed vanished intltool-update -p
[09:36] <seb128>  -- Michael Vogt <michael.vogt@ubuntu.com>  Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:19:38 +0200
[09:36] <seb128> 
[09:37] <seb128> carlos: it's supposed to have been created on that date
[09:37] <seb128> carlos: and I think pitti confirmed the pot got built during the package build
[09:37] <carlos> seb128: sorry, let me explain it better
[09:37] <seb128> carlos: could you have a look on why it's not updated please? language packs for edgy have to be rolled tomorrow and I would like gnome-app-install translated correctly for edgy
[09:37] <carlos> that field notes when that .pot file was created in launchpad
[09:37] <carlos> not when latest .pot file was created
[09:37] <seb128> ah k
[09:37] <seb128> still
[09:38] <seb128> the french page has 0 untranslated string
[09:38] <seb128> and translation has not changed since 2006-10-11
[09:38] <seb128> which means it didn't get the new strings it's supposed to have
[09:38] <carlos> that's a problem then with the .pot file creation
[09:39] <carlos> seb128: http://librarian.launchpad.net/4861317/gnome-app-install.pot
[09:39] <carlos> that's the .pot file that was imported
[09:39] <carlos> and I can assure you that it's imported without problem
[09:39] <lifeless> carlos: thats jubany, not carbon
[09:40] <lifeless> do you want the equivalent on carbon run ?
[09:40] <carlos> lifeless: seems like it works using push from jubany
[09:40] <lifeless> carlos: so, I'll need to verify thats what it does
[09:40] <seb128> carlos: that pot is correct
[09:40] <carlos> at least the only language pack db that I'm aware of is in carbon
[09:40] <lifeless> carlos: which is my point about not knowing it well enough to do fast fast fast
[09:40] <carlos> ok
[09:40] <lifeless> carlos: please ring stub!
[09:40] <carlos> I will call stuart
[09:40] <carlos> lifeless: thanks
[09:41] <lifeless> if hes not available, I will proceed, with due caution, to get it to happen, but I'm not about to run random scripts on jubany.
[09:41] <carlos> seb128: then it should be correct. I'm downloading the .pot file we have in launchpad to get a diff
[09:42] <seb128> carlos: thank you
[09:42] <seb128> carlos: example of not translated text:
[09:42] <seb128> hum
[09:42] <carlos> seb128: wouldn't be possible that new strings are already part of our suggestion database? (strings that were there sometime ago, were removed later and now added again)
[09:42] <seb128> the rosetta page seems to be fine
[09:43] <seb128> carlos: looks like that's the case, I found the string as translated
[09:43] <carlos> :-)
[09:43] <seb128> ok, goo
[09:43] <seb128> good
[09:43] <seb128> I didn't know rosetta kept old strings translations
[09:43] <carlos> we keep everything ;-)
[09:43] <seb128> :)
[09:43] <seb128> brb
[09:52] <highvoltage> hi. how do I link a specification to the MV summit?
[09:54] <carlos> highvoltage: in the spec page, click over 'Propose for meeting agenda' in the actions menu
[09:54] <carlos> it should be a link like: https://features.launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+spec/translation-review/+linksprint
[09:59] <highvoltage> aaah, there it is. thanks carlos.
[09:59] <carlos> you are welcome
[10:04] <_thumper_> ping jamesh
[10:11] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66877 in malone "Not able to attach CVE any more" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66877
[10:14] <jamesh> _thumper_: pong
[10:15] <_thumper_> jamesh: I'm having a few permission problems with some work I'm doing and ddaa suggested talking to you
[10:15] <jamesh> okay
[10:17] <BjornT> jamesh: how's it going with the review of my branch? it's been unreviewed for almost a week and a half now.
[10:18] <lifeless> spiv: ping
[10:24] <jamesh> BjornT: I'm part way through it.  Will email the review soon.
[10:24] <BjornT> cool
[10:26] <Samyak> Hi All,
[10:28] <Samyak> Wanted to know if launch pad supports RSS feeds ?
[10:29] <SteveA> poolie: call soon I think
[10:31] <Samyak> Oh, I just saw it has been there with high priority on the site 
[11:09] <tonyyarusso> Is it possible to remove a spec from a sprint?  I had proposed one for paris, but didn't have all of the writeup that it should have had.  Now I've figured that out and written the more complete description on the wiki and submitted for mtv, but it still has paris (proposed) listed, which isn't a huge problem, but just seems out of place.
[11:20] <mdz> tonyyarusso: I don't think so; probably the organizers can only decline it
[11:20] <mdz> but it doesn't hurt to leave it there
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> All right.  I guess that's what'll happen unless someone from paris feels like cleaning house.
[11:45] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66886 in malone "double attaching problem in malone bug report" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66886
[11:50] <SteveA> poolie: ping
[11:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66887 in launchpad "Make reporters life easier when he is searching for an already reported bug" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66887
[12:09] <_thumper_> hmm... it seems that I am missing a dependancy for launchpad development
[12:10] <_thumper_> ProblemRenderingGraph: ... /bin/sh: unflatten: command no found
[12:10] <_thumper_> missing package?
[12:14] <_thumper_> ddaa, know the answer?
[12:14] <jamesh> graphviz?
[12:14] <ddaa> apt-file knows it all
[12:15] <ddaa> yup, graphviz
[12:15] <_thumper_> yep, didn't have that
[12:15] <_thumper_> should be added to the launchpad dependancy meta package
[12:16] <ddaa> probably a bug if the launchpad development metapackages do not have that
[12:16] <ddaa> yeah launchpad-dependencies should depend on graphviz
[12:17] <ddaa> _thumper_: please file a bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/launchpad-dependencies/+bugs
[12:18] <_thumper_> ok
[12:19] <lifeless> ddaa: not there
[12:19] <lifeless> _thumper_: not there
[12:19] <_thumper_> lifeless, ok, where?
[12:19] <lifeless> its no longer in the distro
[12:20] <lifeless> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-development-infrastructure
[12:23] <lifeless> _thumper_: also, do you have scratchy in your apt list ?
[12:23] <_thumper_> yep
[12:29] <stub> Can anyone think why we might still need to set PYTHONPATH in the main Launchpad Makefile?
[12:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66894 in launchpad-development-infrastructure "missing dependancy graphviz" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66894
[12:31] <ddaa> _thumper_: is something blocking your landing of the "fix" to "prevent" timeout errors on branch listings?
[12:31] <carlos> stub: hi, do you know how's going the mirror? seems like it's taking too long
[12:32] <_thumper_> ddaa, just me getting back to spiv about naming stuff, slipped my mind
[12:32] <_thumper_> ddaa, doing now 
[12:32] <ddaa> thanks
[12:34] <stub> carlos: still running. It is building indexes, so the data is all loaded.
[12:34] <carlos> stub: ok
[12:34] <carlos> thanks
[12:36] <carlos> mdke: ping
[01:12] <lifeless> spiv: when you get back, do you want to hack at my place on SS tomorrow? I'm crashing - tired - but ping me tomorrow about it ok? (Last chance before I'm off to singapore)
[01:14] <spiv> lifeless: back
[01:15] <spiv> lifeless: sounds good.
[01:16] <carlos> stub: the mirror is ready now. Thanks!
[01:17] <stub> Yup. No glitches at this end.
[01:19] <mpt> lifeless, I've sent a request to PQM twice in the past few hours and got a response neither time. It is requesting to merge to /code/, not /home/warthogs/archives/. What else could be wrong?
[01:19] <carlos> stub: could you confirm to me that the update-statistics script is still being run daily?
[01:19] <stub> It is still being run daily. 
[01:19] <carlos> hmmm
[01:19] <carlos> then we have a bug
[01:19] <carlos> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/en_GB/+index?start=827&batch=1
[01:19] <carlos> shows no translation at all
[01:20] <carlos> but following the link
[01:20] <carlos> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/moin/+pots/moinmoin/en_GB/+translate
[01:20] <carlos> it's full translated...
[01:24] <jamesh> ddaa: that's a weird branch scanner error message
[01:24] <ddaa> looks like bzrlib gave something that the branch scanner cannot feed to datetime
[01:25] <ddaa> might be anything from a weird edge case in date handling to genuine invalid data...
[01:25] <jamesh> The code in Python does this:
[01:26] <jamesh>         timet = _PyTime_DoubleToTimet(timestamp);
[01:26] <jamesh>         ...
[01:26] <jamesh>         fraction = timestamp - (double)timet;
[01:26] <jamesh>         us = (int)round_to_long(fraction * 1e6);
[01:26] <eleusis> hi
[01:26] <jamesh> The check that triggers the ValueError is:
[01:26] <jamesh>         if (us < 0 || us > 999999) {
[01:26] <ddaa> was is the actual value of us there?
[01:27] <ddaa> might be something like -1, or some weird value that reflects leap seconds, or whatever...
[01:28] <jamesh> >>> revision.timestamp
[01:28] <jamesh> 1161204240.098
[01:28] <jamesh> not particularly special
[01:28] <ddaa> floating point rounding error?
[01:28] <ddaa> cosmic ray?
[01:28] <jamesh> a rounding error isn't going to push the value that far out ...
[01:29] <jamesh> and we're talking about 64-bit precision here.
[01:29] <ddaa> fraction = timestamp - (double)timet
[01:30] <ddaa> floating point substraction is not a particularly safe operation
[01:30] <ddaa> that's my best guess so far...
[01:31] <jamesh> it isn't that inaccurate
[01:33] <jamesh> the _PyTime_DoubleToTimet() routine does a C cast of timestamp down to time_t (which will be rounding down in this instance, then checks that the difference between the result and the original value is reasonable (between -1 and 1)
[01:34] <ddaa> between 0 and 1-epsilon that is...
[01:34] <ddaa> truly weird indeed
[01:34] <jamesh> we aren't talking about tiny quantities here though
[01:35] <ddaa> could that be a case of flaky FPU?
[01:35] <jamesh> there is plenty of precision here
[01:35] <jamesh> don't know
[01:35] <jamesh> see if the error persists ...
[01:35] <ddaa> going to lunch
[01:36] <ddaa> always though the idea of floating-point timestamps was distasteful...
[01:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66906 in rosetta "Rosetta lists moinmoin as being untranslated in en_GB" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66906
[01:51] <ddaa>  ++++++++++++++++++6666666666666666666
[01:51] <_thumper_> ddaa: cat?
[01:52] <spiv> That's quite a lot of unary plus operators....
[01:56] <SteveA> double plus good
[01:56] <jamesh> of course, the increment operator can't be applied to a constant ...
[01:57] <spiv> Launchpad meeting in 3 or so minutes.
[01:57] <ddaa> yeah... cat...
[01:58] <ddaa> was lunching
[01:58] <ddaa> just found the culprit, hiding behind a curtain
[01:58] <kiko-zzz> me
[01:59] <ddaa> no kiko, you're not my cat
[01:59] <kiko> rats
[02:00] <spiv> MEETING TIME
[02:00] <_thumper_> yay
[02:00] <malcc> woo
[02:00] <spiv> == Agenda ==
[02:00] <spiv>  * Roll call
[02:00] <spiv>  * Agenda
[02:00] <spiv>  * Next meeting
[02:00] <spiv>  * Activity reports
[02:00] <spiv>  * Actions from last meeting
[02:00] <spiv>  * Oops report (Matsubara)
[02:00] <spiv>  * Bug report report (mpt)
[02:00] <spiv>  * Production and staging (Stuart)
[02:01] <spiv>  * Launchpad 1.0 status reports + updating spec status
[02:01] <spiv>  * Sysadmin requests
[02:01] <spiv> ----
[02:01] <spiv>  * Writing help text (mpt)
[02:01] <spiv>  * Moin-style markup in doctests and docs (SteveA)
[02:01] <spiv>  * Terminology: Structural, immediate, application objects (SteveA)
[02:01] <spiv>  * Moving standalone pagetests into domain areas (mpt)
[02:01] <spiv>  * (other items)
[02:01] <spiv> ----
[02:01] <spiv>  * Keep, Bag, Change
[02:01] <spiv>  * Three sentences
[02:01] <spiv> Who's here?
[02:01] <SteveA> I welcome spiv as today's special guest chair of the launchpad development meeting.
[02:01] <malcc> me
[02:01] <salgado> me
[02:01] <mpt> me
[02:01] <cprov> me
[02:01] <SteveA> me
[02:01] <_thumper_> me
[02:01] <BjornT> me
[02:01] <flacoste> me
[02:01] <jamesh> me
[02:01] <matsubara> me
[02:01] <ddaa> me
[02:01] <bradb_> me
[02:02] <kiko> me
[02:02] <spiv> stub: ?
[02:02] <stub> me
[02:02] <sivang> carlos: hi
[02:02] <spiv> carlos: ?
[02:02] <spiv> Anyone else missing?
[02:03] <spiv> * Agenda
[02:03] <SteveA> jordi: around?
[02:03] <sivang> carlos: if I approve someone, and he then goes and spamms translations, is there any way to revert back to what was before his did that?
[02:03] <spiv> I already pasted that.
[02:03] <spiv> privmsg me late additions.
[02:03] <spiv> * Next meeting
[02:03] <malcc> For a change, how about same time next week?
[02:03] <_thumper_> I'll be in singapore next week... 8pm is dinner time :) but could probably make it if necessary
[02:03] <carlos> me
[02:03] <carlos> sorry
[02:03] <spiv> Next week, same bat time, same bat channel?
[02:04] <carlos> I was on the phone
[02:04] <SteveA> _thumper_: don't worry about coming next week, if it is difficult to do from singapore.
[02:04] <sivang> woops, sorry for interrupting in the middle of the meeting.
[02:04] <carlos> sivang: using some DBA magic, yes
[02:04] <SteveA> stub: same for you, but please mail me production/staging report before hand.
[02:04] <stub> ok
[02:05] <spiv> Developer meeting: Thu 26 Oct, 1200UTC (wiki:MeetingAgenda) | launchpad-users@lists.canonical.com (wiki:MailingLists) | Channel logs: http://tinyurl.com/72w39
[02:05] <spiv> Ahem.
[02:05] <spiv> * Activity reports
[02:05] <spiv> Who's naughty and who's nice?
[02:05] <stub> nice
[02:05] <mpt> nice
[02:05] <_thumper_> nice
[02:05] <matsubara> nice
[02:05] <malcc> I'm on a sprint, but it's hardly any excuse, as I was already behind from last week
[02:05] <flacoste> nice
[02:05] <ddaa> up to date, sent filler mail for the sprint
[02:05] <BjornT> nice
[02:05] <bradb_> up to date
[02:05] <SteveA> bad
[02:05] <jamesh> not up to date
[02:05] <cprov> I'm on sprint, will send summary
[02:05] <malcc> I'll send a sprint summary and then be nicer next week
[02:05] <salgado> up to date. (will send yesterday's today)
[02:05] <kiko> not up to date
[02:05] <spiv> nice
[02:06] <spiv> Naughty people, take inspiration from kiko.
[02:06] <spiv> == Actions from last meeting ==
[02:07] <spiv>  * SteveA to write up what needs doing to implement `__eq__`, `__ne__`, and `__hash__` for database objects
[02:07] <malcc> Naughty people have been taking inspiration from kiko for years
[02:07] <spiv> SteveA: Any progress?
[02:07] <SteveA> no.
[02:07] <SteveA> it wasn't even on my todo list
[02:07] <kiko> SteveA, spiv: maybe we should take a moment to clarify that point
[02:07] <kiko> and see if it's still worth doing
[02:08] <spiv> Yeah, I can barely even remember what that's about.
[02:08] <kiko> has it been proven that those methods are actually missing?
[02:08] <kiko> and/or relevant?
[02:08] <SteveA> kiko: it's a matter of writing a braindump spec from what was agreed in a meeting N weeks ago
[02:08] <SteveA> so that the decision is effectively captured
[02:09] <SteveA> to do that I'll check the logs of that meeting
[02:09] <kiko> what spawned this discussion was the fact that malcc ended up encountering a situation in which objects in sets were not considered the same even though they really were
[02:09] <SteveA> and then register a spec
[02:09] <malcc> We found we had a number of callsites using == and getting random results depending on what mood SQLObject was in
[02:09] <malcc> So we need to ban == or make it work
[02:09] <SteveA> or maybe a bug
[02:09] <kiko> malcc, do we have a testcase?
[02:09] <SteveA> depending
[02:09] <kiko> that's what I want to know.
[02:09] <kiko> up to now all is speculation
[02:09] <malcc> It's not hard to replicate and I think I have code kicking around which does it
[02:09] <malcc> Obviously we don't have a test case in rf, as it would fail :)
[02:10] <SteveA> spiv: seeing as I'm not getting around to this...
[02:10] <kiko> malcc, if you have a short testcase we will shower you with gifts
[02:10] <SteveA> would you take responsibility for getting malc's testcase
[02:10] <SteveA> and checking the meeting logs
[02:10] <SteveA> and writing up a sensible thing we should do?
[02:10] <spiv> Ok.
[02:10] <carlos> I'm up to date with activity reports
[02:10] <SteveA> I'll review it for you
[02:10] <ddaa> sucks not to have ExpectedFailure support
[02:11] <jamesh> given the way sqlobject's cache works and the fact that we blow the cache after each request, I wonder if this means that objects from a previous request are being used?
[02:11] <SteveA> ddaa: was that a random interjection?
[02:11] <malcc> jamesh: Where we saw the problem was outside the webapp
[02:11] <ddaa> SteveA: if the test framework supported "expected failure", malcc could merge his test case to rocketfuel
[02:11] <kiko> jamesh, that.. could be.
[02:11] <spiv> ACTION: spiv to make testcase for malcc's issue (`__eq__`, `__ne__`, and `__hash__` for database objects), and write up the results
[02:11] <SteveA> _thumper_: what's this quoting star wars stuff about?
[02:12] <kiko> what's wrong with star wars?
[02:12] <_thumper_> SteveA, couldn't think of an appropriate monty python one
[02:12] <SteveA> ddaa: thank you.  that is clearer now you've explained the context.
[02:12] <spiv> * Oops report (Matsubara)
[02:12] <jamesh> malcc: that's weird then -- we don't blow the cache at all in that case
[02:12] <spiv> matsubara: fire away
[02:12] <matsubara> Today's oops report is about bugs 52780, 66826
[02:12] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 52780 in launchpad-bazaar "We need to return a user-friendly message when someone tries to register a branch with a invalid URL." [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/52780
[02:12] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 66826 in launchpad "Sometimes while adding an attachment to a bug Launchpad OOPSes with an AttributeError" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66826
[02:12] <matsubara> ddaa or __thumper__: could you guys take care of that one?
[02:12] <matsubara> Bug 66826 is a bit strange. I couldn't reproduce it and seems like a zope bug. Anyone has any idea how that happened?
[02:13] <ddaa> _thumper_: jamesh: I've over my head with stuff to do now. Help greatly appreciated.
[02:13] <SteveA> 66826 is weird
[02:13] <SteveA> I'm interested in looking at it
[02:13] <_thumper_> thanks
[02:14] <ddaa> _thumper_: that was request for help, actually
[02:14] <BjornT> i remember we had this issue before, but i couldn't produce a test case for it.
[02:14] <_thumper_> the thanks was for SteveA not you :)
[02:14] <matsubara> BjornT: yeah, I added the thread where you explained that to the bug
[02:15] <matsubara> SteveA: I'll assign to you then. it doesn't happen often though
[02:15] <SteveA> ok
[02:15] <matsubara> _thumper_: can you take bug 52780?
[02:15] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 52780 in launchpad-bazaar "We need to return a user-friendly message when someone tries to register a branch with a invalid URL." [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/52780
[02:15] <ddaa> jamesh: can you do 52780?
[02:15] <BjornT> matsubara: right, i was just looking up my password so that i could see which thread that was :)
[02:15] <_thumper_> matsubara: ok
[02:15] <jamesh> ddaa: okay.  Was just checking the OOPS
[02:15] <ddaa> matsubara: _thumper_ is going to singapore then on leave to move to .nz
[02:16] <matsubara> hmm
[02:16] <ddaa> matsubara: since he already got some stuff going, I do not think it's practical to give him more stuff to do this week
[02:16] <jamesh> matsubara: I'll take the bug -- looks pretty simple to fix.
[02:16] <matsubara> ddaa: all right
[02:16] <SteveA> I'll note that the bug is "medium" important
[02:16] <matsubara> and thanks jamesh 
[02:16] <ddaa> jamesh: you're my hero
[02:17] <SteveA> although it does cause an oops, it is not registered as being critical or high
[02:17] <jamesh> probably better to just correct the URL rather than bother with error messages
[02:17] <SteveA> so I think we should change the importance, or say that we probably have more important bugs
[02:17] <matsubara> it's been happening quite frequently lately.
[02:17] <SteveA> then raise the importance to high
[02:17] <ddaa> done
[02:17] <SteveA> my point is, the process should be:
[02:18] <SteveA>  - someone takes on a bug because it is important
[02:18] <SteveA>  - we know it is important because it says so in the bug tracker
[02:18] <SteveA>  - we set importance on bugs in the bug tracker according to the attention they require
[02:18] <SteveA> if we skip steps here, we'll end up not using the bug tracker well
[02:18] <SteveA> and assigning bugs to be fixed based on random criteria
[02:18] <kiko> SteveA is absolutely right
[02:18] <SteveA> that's all, thanks
[02:18] <malcc> Does that mean anything flagged "medium" or worse should never be fixed, or must have its importance bumped before it's fixed?
[02:19] <kiko> malcc, thats one way of doing it.
[02:19] <SteveA> depends how many "high" or "critical" bugs we have in the same application area
[02:19] <kiko> I think critical has special meaning though
[02:19] <mpt> malcc, if/when we get through all the Critical bugs in the Bug report report, I will start nagging people about the High bugs, then the Medium ones
[02:19] <SteveA> I agree with kiko
[02:19] <SteveA> there is no way this particular bug is critical
[02:19] <ddaa> malcc: unless there are only few medium bugs, I think only fixing high (except for exceptions) is a good way go.
[02:19] <SteveA> I'll accept it being "high" though
[02:19] <kiko> critical means "the SH*T has HIT THE FAN"
[02:20] <SteveA> and we'll need lawyers
[02:20] <matsubara> well, I'm done here spiv. Thanks everyone.
[02:20] <stub> Developers can of course make a call for quick fixes of lower priority bugs, esp. if they are in the same section of code.
[02:20] <SteveA> guns
[02:20] <SteveA> and money
[02:20] <spiv> matsubara: thanks
[02:20] <spiv> * Bug report report (mpt)
[02:20] <ddaa> or it means "that's on CRITICAL path for important stuff!"
[02:20] <mpt> There are 18 known Critical bugs in Launchpad without released fixes. The oldest ten without committed fixes are:
[02:20] <mpt>  * Bug #929 (Long words (such as URLs) overflow columns), Critical, Confirmed, jamesh
[02:20] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 929 in launchpad "Long words (such as URLs) overflow columns" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/929
[02:20] <mpt> jamesh, any progress?
[02:20] <jamesh> mpt: did a bit of work on it, but not finished yet.
[02:20] <mpt> ok
[02:21] <mpt> maybe mark it In Progress, then?
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #2322 (Truncated plural forms), Critical, Confirmed, carlos
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #44214 (We need to add code to prevent POFiles being in the same path), Critical, In Progress, carlos
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #44808 (Some translation templates in dapper don't contain any items), Critical, Confirmed, carlos
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #46982 (Rosetta does not accept correct KDE plural forms when there are more than 2), Critical, Confirmed, carlos
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 2322 in rosetta "Truncated plural forms" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2322
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 44214 in rosetta "We need to add code to prevent POFiles being in the same path" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/44214
[02:21] <kiko> jamesh, I'm your fan
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 44808 in rosetta "Some translation templates in dapper don't contain any items" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/44808
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 46982 in rosetta "Rosetta does not accept correct KDE plural forms when there are more than 2" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/46982
[02:21] <mpt> carlos, do you need to hand one or two of those to danilos?
[02:21] <SteveA> (this is critical becasuse: it is required for UI 1.0, it screws up the UI, and applies across many pages.) (that's the URL wrapping bug)
[02:21] <carlos> mpt: 2322 has already a workaround, now I want to fix what produced it (I will do it in two steps)
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #2497 (/people/*/+translations times out for prolific translators), Critical, In Progress, kiko
[02:21] <mpt>  * Bug #30602 (Timeout errors in +translate), Critical, Confirmed, kiko
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 2497 in rosetta "/people/*/+translations times out for prolific translators" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2497
[02:21] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 30602 in rosetta "Timeout errors in +translate" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30602
[02:21] <mpt> kiko, you've had both of these for a month now. Do you need to reassign them?
[02:22] <kiko> mpt, I can't give them away at this point, we're wed to the grave
[02:22] <carlos> 44214 is done, blocked on weird test failures, I will resume it this week (I was on holidays and busy until today)
[02:22] <kiko> jamesh, will you have time to look at my re-review before crashing?
[02:22] <mpt> eww
[02:22] <jamesh> kiko: yeah
[02:22] <kiko> jamesh, (sorry to request that, I'm just feeling bad about the smell that branch is giving off by now)
[02:22] <mpt> carlos, as long as you're not overwhelmed, that's the main thing
[02:22] <carlos> I don't think 44808 should be critical... usually it's due a bug in the package instead of Rosetta
[02:22] <mpt>  * Bug #4594 (Shouldn't be able to add duplicate bug watches), Critical, In Progress, BjornT
[02:22] <mpt> BjornT, I reported that, and I think it's Medium, not Critical. What do you think?
[02:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 4594 in malone "Shouldn't be able to add duplicate bug watches" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4594
[02:23] <jamesh> kiko: no problem.
[02:23] <mpt> kiko/SteveA, do you agree with carlos about 44808?
[02:23] <carlos> and about 46982: I will talk with danilo about his load and see who does it
[02:23] <mpt> thanks carlos
[02:23] <mpt>  * Bug #48948 (dapper indices files still being regenerated but shouldn't be), Critical, Confirmed, malcc
[02:23] <mpt> malcc, will you get to that this week?
[02:23] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48948 in soyuz "dapper indices files still being regenerated but shouldn't be" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48948
[02:23] <carlos> mpt: you are welcome
[02:23] <mpt> and finally
[02:23] <SteveA> I don't know enough about 44808.  we can talk about it after the meeting.
[02:23] <mpt>  * Bug #66383 (private), Confirmed, Critical, unassigned
[02:23] <mpt> jamesh, who should take 66383?
[02:23] <kiko> mpt, well.. it's an annoying issue
[02:23] <ddaa> bug 66383: intense discussion in progress. I have posted a report and plan of action yesterday, but it seems the discussion is continuing on older threads.
[02:23] <BjornT> mpt: it probably should be medium, but it doesn't matter much. it was quick to fix, and it's already in the review queue.
[02:24] <ddaa> mpt: I take it
[02:24] <malcc> mpt: We've decided the solution to that bug is a change to dsync; I need to find someone to change it for me
[02:24] <mpt> Ubugtu, stop messaging me
[02:24] <malcc> I don't fancy dusting off my C++ skills
[02:24] <_thumper_> someone say C++?
[02:24] <mpt> BjornT, all righty then
[02:24] <kiko> c++ is evil
[02:24] <mpt> jamesh?
[02:24] <ddaa> kiko: _thumper_ is a C++ fan
[02:25] <ddaa> _thumper_: you're sick, man!
[02:25] <jamesh> mpt: ddaa answered you
[02:25] <mpt> malcc, do you know who to talk to about that?
[02:25] <mpt> sorry, ddaa, didn't see you
[02:25] <mpt> ok, that's all
[02:25] <mpt> back to you spiv
[02:25] <spiv> * Production and staging (Stuart)
[02:25] <stub> Nothing unusual happening with staging.
[02:25] <stub> Looking at the cherry picks requested last week, I elected to do a full rollout. 
[02:25] <stub> During the data migration work that needed to be done at the same time I discovered some unusual errors being logged, which after discussion with some experts turned out to be a problem we needed to sort.
[02:25] <stub> The details are rather arcane and I don't fully understand them myself, but in a nutshell we had a ticking timebomb from a security patch that needed to be applied manually some time ago and missed a critical step.
[02:25] <stub> The end result was an unusual situation the experts hadn't seen before, but they happily walked me through the recovery. No data loss I'm aware off.
[02:25] <stub> Total downtime was just under 3 hours, instead of the 1 hour originally planned, and the rosetta edgy data migration needed to be deferred to the following day.
[02:25] <stub> Rosetta edgy data migration ran overtime the following day, as the script needed to be restarted after 30 minutes and ran longer than the test runs would have indicated. 
[02:25] <stub> Lessons for next time is data migration code running in SERIALIZABLE isolation level cannot coexist with pretty much anything without blowing up, and the test database will be quite a bit faster that production, as the test database does not suffer from any bloat.
[02:26] <stub> questions?
[02:26] <carlos> stub: how much time did it take?
[02:26] <SteveA> does vacuuming unbloat the main db?
[02:27] <stub> carlos: I think about 1.5 hours. I haven't got the actual time unfortunately.
[02:27] <carlos> wtf???
[02:27] <jamesh> SteveA: some things can't be unbloated by vacuuming (such as column removals)
[02:27] <carlos> wow, so we shouldn't  do it again
[02:27] <SteveA> can they be unbloated by copying the database?
[02:27] <stub> SteveA: Only way to unbloat for us is a vacuum full (which involves downtime) or a dump/restore (which involves downtime, but much less)
[02:27] <jamesh> yes
[02:27] <SteveA> ok
[02:28] <kiko> nightmares
[02:28] <stub> I've wanted to do the dump/restore for over a month now, but scheduling a three hour downtime window is painful.
[02:28] <SteveA> we need a read-only mode
[02:28] <SteveA> so that we can do these things with minimal fuss
[02:28] <spiv> SteveA: +1
[02:28] <spiv> * Launchpad 1.0 status reports + updating spec status
[02:28] <kiko> stub, whatever you do, check with mdz first. :)
[02:29] <bradb_> Malone 1.0
[02:29] <bradb_> [02:29] <bradb_> upstream-forwarding-workflow: No news. Still in review. BjornT's nagged jamesh. :P
[02:29] <bradb_> series-and-distrorelease-mgmt: Up for review again.
[02:29] <bradb_> guided-filebug-form: No news.
[02:29] <bradb_> removing-duplicate-comments: No news.
[02:29] <bradb_> malone-essential-docs: No news.
[02:29] <bradb_> simple-bug-keywords: No news.
[02:29] <ddaa> supermirror-smart-server: according to spiv, bzr+http was in review process on Monday. Spec whiteboard needs to be updated.	https://features.launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+spec/supermirror-smart-server
[02:29] <ddaa> No other outstanding feature for 1.0 launchpad-bazaar (discounting 1.0 UI).
[02:29] <ddaa> spiv: please update whiteboard
[02:29] <spiv> ddaa: oops, thanks for the reminder
[02:29] <salgado> Question Tracker 1.0
[02:29] <salgado> ---------------------------------
[02:29] <salgado> - SupportTrackerWorklow: working on Bjorn's review comments.
[02:29] <salgado> - SupportTrackerViews: reviewed, should land today
[02:29] <salgado> - SupportTrackerHelp: about 33% complete
[02:29] <salgado> - LocalizedSupportRequests: started, good progress.
[02:29] <salgado> Random Things 1.0
[02:30] <salgado> -------------------------------
[02:30] <salgado> - DirectPersonRegistration: in review.
[02:30] <jordi> apologies -- hardware troubles
[02:30] <jordi> I'm here now
[02:30] <malcc> Soyuz 1.0: Having a wonderful time in Brazil, wish you were all here. More next week.
[02:30] <carlos> hmm, Rosetta status is handled usually by danilo and I hadn't the chance to get an update before he left for his VISA process
[02:31] <spiv> carlos: get one mailed to the list later, then?
[02:31] <SteveA> carlos: send it to mpt, cc kiko later
[02:31] <kiko> carlos, yeah.
[02:31] <SteveA> later today
[02:31] <carlos> ok
[02:31] <spiv> * Sysadmin requests
[02:32] <spiv> Anybody?
[02:32] <spiv> 5
[02:32] <spiv> 4
[02:32] <spiv> 3
[02:32] <spiv> 2
[02:32] <spiv> 1
[02:32] <SteveA> outstanding!
[02:32] <spiv> Looks like the admins are keeping us happy!
[02:32] <kiko> yay
[02:32] <spiv> Someone send them a thank you :)
[02:32] <kiko> they are indeed doing a stellar job
[02:32] <spiv> * Writing help text (mpt)
[02:33] <mpt> This is basically a rehash of what SteveA said during the meeting two weeks ago, but:
[02:33] <mpt> I have landed a change to the main template to include a slot for help
[02:33] <mpt> help text, rather
[02:33] <mpt> explaining how to use the particular type of page you're on
[02:33] <mpt> This help text will be invisible on mainline, but will be made available in 1.0
[02:34] <mpt> I'll post to launchpad@ tomorrow with full instructions on how to put help inside it
[02:34] <ddaa> mpt: it would help to write good text if we could see the actual end result...
[02:34] <mpt> The goal is to have help for as many templates as possible
[02:35] <SteveA> ddaa: we'll have that sorted out soon.
[02:35] <mpt> That's all.
[02:35] <spiv> * Moin-style markup in doctests and docs (SteveA)
[02:35] <mpt> thanks spiv
[02:35] <SteveA> there will be a server you have access to where you'll be able to see the help text, and new UI
[02:35] <SteveA> so...
[02:35] <SteveA> we use wiki-style markup on the wikis
[02:35] <SteveA> and in doctests
[02:35] <SteveA> and (soon-ish, after 1.0) in launchpad pages
[02:35] <SteveA> we're standardizing on a subset of moin formatting.
[02:36] <SteveA> please use simple moin formatting in documents you check into the launchpad source tree, including doctests.
[02:36] <SteveA> that's all.
[02:36] <spiv> * Terminology: Structural, immediate, application objects (SteveA)
[02:36] <SteveA> if you work on a doc, consider updating it to the new format as you work on it.
[02:36] <SteveA> that's really all.
[02:36] <SteveA> ok
[02:36] <SteveA> terminology
[02:36] <jamesh> to look nice with moin formatting, we'd need to wrap code blocks in verbatim sections though
[02:36] <SteveA> jamesh: doesn't need to be precicely renderable
[02:37] <spiv> [A reminder: please prepare text to paste if you have an agenda item, so we don't run late!] 
[02:37] <jamesh> fair enough.
[02:37] <SteveA> just use moin headings rather than restructured text ones
[02:37] <SteveA> for the UI 1.0 work, we've identified some particular ways to talk about objects in launchpad
[02:37] <SteveA> we have structural objects.
[02:37] <SteveA> these are things like distro, person, team, product, product release, product series, milestone
[02:37] <SteveA> distro release (distro series), source package, binary package etc.
[02:37] <SteveA> we have application objects
[02:38] <SteveA> bug, spec, po file... etc.
[02:38] <SteveA> these are things that in general are in the context of a structural object
[02:38] <SteveA> the term "immediate object" refers to the object that a particular page is directly concerned with
[02:38] <SteveA> that's all.
[02:38] <ddaa> is "branch" structural or application?
[02:39] <SteveA> ddaa: application, probably
[02:39] <_thumper_> i'd guess application
[02:39] <kiko> app
[02:39] <spiv> * Moving standalone pagetests into domain areas (mpt)
[02:39] <SteveA> there was a thread about this on the mailing list
[02:39] <mpt> I suggested arranging tests by topic
[02:39] <SteveA> I'm +1 on moving standalone tests into a more specific domain-related area
[02:39] <SteveA> +1 to mpt's suggestion
[02:39] <ddaa> _thumper_: assume makes an ass of u and me :) better to ask for explicit
[02:39] <SteveA> jamesh and spiv (and maybe others) checked that it was feasible
[02:40] <SteveA> so, please do so as you work on standalone tests.
[02:40] <kiko> +1
[02:40] <_thumper_> ddaa: I don't have a problem with asking
[02:40] <spiv> * re-propose the search tag (matsubara)
[02:40] <mpt> SteveA, or maybe they should be done all at once
[02:40] <SteveA> if someone has time and inclination, sure
[02:40] <matsubara> I added new examples to the search tag in  https://help.launchpad.net/TaggingLaunchpadBugs
[02:40] <SteveA> do coordinate if you're thinking of doing this
[02:40] <SteveA> so that two people dont' do it
[02:40] <matsubara> so SteveA if you could take a look and perhaps approve that tag would be nice.
[02:41] <kiko> ah, cool work matsubara 
[02:41] <ddaa> added another example for the search tag, too
[02:41] <SteveA> +1
[02:41] <SteveA> thanks matsubara and ddaa
[02:41] <spiv> * Keep, Bag, Change
[02:41] <spiv> 9
[02:41] <spiv> 8
[02:41] <ddaa> BAG: arbitrary restrictions (cannot make spec depend on spec in another project, cannot select branch in another product when creating bugbranch in product context)
[02:41] <ddaa> BAG: not allowing privileged users (product owners, etc.) from editing details of branch they are not the registrant of.
[02:41] <spiv> 7
[02:41] <spiv> 6
[02:42] <spiv> 5
[02:42] <spiv> 4
[02:42] <spiv> 3
[02:42] <spiv> 2
[02:42] <spiv> 1
[02:42] <spiv> ok.
[02:42] <SteveA> ddaa: too many double negatives there for me to parse it
[02:42] <SteveA> sounds like a CHANGE anyway
[02:42] <SteveA> spiv: please move on
[02:42] <spiv> * Three sentences
[02:42] <ddaa> DONE: sprint, importd sanity (bug 66383) discussion
[02:42] <ddaa> TODO: rollout new importd (launchpad upgrade), travel details, last bazaar meeting summary, implement import sanity work, merge outstanding branches
[02:42] <ddaa> BLOCKED: no (just too many things to do)
[02:43] <spiv> Fire away!
[02:43] <cprov> DONE: soyuz BR sprint, quicker i-f-p, publish-distro with suite support.
[02:43] <cprov> TODO: ArchiveRework, NascenUpload redesign, NativeSourceSyncing and so on
[02:43] <cprov> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <BjornT> DONE: lots of code reviews. various bug fixes.
[02:43] <BjornT> TODO: code reviews. coordinate with brad and pick up any loose ends.
[02:43] <_thumper_> DONE: sprint, little bug fixes
[02:43] <_thumper_> TODO: specification branches
[02:43] <_thumper_> BLOCKED: nothing
[02:43] <BjornT> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <mpt> DONE: mockups, mockups, mockups
[02:43] <mpt> TODO: some implementation, please
[02:43] <mpt> BLOCKED: PQM is eating my requests with no feedback
[02:43] <malcc> DONE: Sprint
[02:43] <flacoste> DONE: wrote some support-tracker-help, handle review comments on tt-workflow and tt-views
[02:43] <flacoste> TODO: land tt-workflow, complete support-tracker-help
[02:43] <flacoste> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <malcc> TODO: Finish sprint, start landing sprint work.
[02:43] <malcc> BLOCKED: No
[02:43] <jamesh> DONE: code reviews, FormLayout, bug 929, other bug fixing/investigation
[02:43] <jamesh> TODO: code reviews, finish off bug 929 and FormLib stuff, url-utils
[02:43] <jamesh> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 929 in launchpad "Long words (such as URLs) overflow columns" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/929
[02:43] <spiv> DONE: reviews, bzr smart server work
[02:43] <spiv> TODO: reviews, bzr smart server work
[02:43] <spiv> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <salgado> DONE: Holidays, got a US visa, finished DirectPersonCreation, lots of bug gardening and shipit fixes for edgy .
[02:43] <salgado> TODO: Finish the shipit changes for edgy and land them, land DirectPersonCreation, finish LocalizedSupportRequests and catch up on email.
[02:43] <salgado> BLOCKED: No
[02:43] <SteveA> DONE: management
[02:43] <SteveA> TODO: management, UI code
[02:43] <SteveA> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <matsubara> DONE: oops report analysis, fixed a couple of bugs (#66622,41273 #57152 #50816 64758, answered some support requests and lp-users@ mails.
[02:43] <bradb_> DONE: Release management. Bug fixing.
[02:43] <matsubara> TODO: triage, oops report analysis, more fixes.
[02:43] <matsubara> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <bradb_> TODO: Pass on the torch. Light new fires.
[02:43] <bradb_> BLOCKED: no
[02:43] <carlos> DONE: TranslationReview, user support, debugged and work on bug #2322, Guadalinex meeting, bug #62927, Edgy language packs sanity checks to prepare final packages
[02:43] <carlos> TODO: ask for review of TranslationReview, finish #2322, coordinate with danilo about 1.0 tasks to finish them as soon as possible.
[02:43] <carlos> BLOCKED: TranslationReview cannot be merged/reviewed until kiko's rosetta-view-refactoring branch lands.
[02:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 2322 in rosetta "Truncated plural forms" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2322
[02:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 62927 in gwenview "Untranslated strings gwenview (edgy)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62927
[02:43] <kiko> DONE: re-reviews, interviews, code reviews some help in the Soyuz sprint
[02:43] <kiko> TODO: land branches and wrap up soyuz sprint
[02:43] <kiko> BLOCKED: not really
[02:43] <SteveA> DONE: (did code review too)
[02:43] <spiv> mpt: had a chance to talk to lifeless about the PQM issue yet?
[02:43] <SteveA> mpt: who have you told about the pqm issues?
[02:44] <spiv> mpt: I know jamesh discussed a similar issue with lifeless recently, perhaps he can offer a clue.
[02:44] <mpt> spiv, the problem started about 8 hours ago, so all I've done so far is ping lifeless a couple of times
[02:44] <jamesh> spiv: my problem was a mail problem on my end
[02:45] <jamesh> spiv: the PQM messages arrived after that got sorted out
[02:45] <spiv> jamesh: So much for that theory...
[02:45] <SteveA> mpt: use email, use the launchpad list and cc lifeless
[02:45] <mpt> ok
[02:45] <spiv> Any other blockers?
[02:45] <SteveA> everyone: with pqm issues, always email the launchpad list, and cc lifeless
[02:45] <carlos> BLOCKED: also blocked on python seg fault. I already reported to the mailing list the problem
[02:46] <SteveA> Seveas: hi
[02:46] <spiv> Ok, countdown time.
[02:46] <spiv> 5
[02:46] <carlos> It's quite hard to me run tests right now
[02:46] <spiv> 4
[02:46] <spiv> 3
[02:46] <carlos> spiv: ?
[02:46] <spiv> 2
[02:46] <malcc> I propose we take this opportunity as a team to thank bradb_ for all his hard work and wish him the best of luck with whatever's next
[02:46] <spiv> (paused)
[02:46] <kiko> hear hear
[02:46] <spiv> bradb_: thanks!
[02:46] <bradb_> cheers :)
[02:46] <mpt> bravo to bradb
[02:47] <matsubara> good luck dude!
[02:47] <cprov> thanks bradb_ !
[02:47] <salgado> yeah, thanks bradb_! good luck
[02:47] <carlos> bradb_: yeah, good luck!
[02:47] <jamesh> good luck bradb_ 
[02:47] <kiko> I miss bradb_ writing nick generation code at mark's flat 
[02:47] <spiv> carlos: I'll follow up on list.
[02:47] <bradb_> thanks all. best of luck for 1.0.
[02:47] <SteveA> stay in touch, brad.  this channel is always open to you.
[02:47] <carlos> spiv: thanks
[02:47] <Seveas> SteveA, ola
[02:47] <kiko> 1.0 R US
[02:47] <bradb_> kiko: hehe
[02:47] <bradb_> SteveA: thanks
[02:47] <spiv> ONE
[02:48] <spiv> ZERO
[02:48] <spiv> MEETING OVER.
[02:48] <malcc> Thanks spiv
[02:48] <spiv> Thanks everyone.
[02:48] <SteveA> Seveas: I have a small feature request for Ubugtu.  When it gets a private bug, to still say the whole URL onto the channel.
[02:48] <mpt> And to not /msg the person who mentioned it.
[02:48] <mpt> :-)
[02:48] <SteveA> Thanks for running the meeting spiv.  I appreciate that you kept it moving forward well.
[02:48] <kiko> sanks to all
[02:48] <salgado> spiv, I subscribed you to bug 54791 and left a question there for you. that bug is quite high prioirity now that we probe ftp-only mirrors.  can you check the question there?
[02:48] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 54791 in launchpad "The mirror prober should check a few files from each mirror in paralel instead of a lot of files from a single mirror" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54791
[02:48] <Seveas> SteveA, sounds reasonable -- please file a bug so I can get to it when I'm near the code (now just online for artteam work)
[02:48] <kiko> SteveA, ubugtu doesn't get private bug notifications
[02:49] <carlos> see you later!
[02:49] <spiv> salgado: yep, I'll do that.
[02:49] <SteveA> Seveas: do you track bugs in Launchpad?
[02:49] <salgado> spiv, cool, thanks!
[02:49] <Seveas> SteveA, /products/ubuntu-bots
[02:49] <SteveA> thanks
[02:49] <SteveA> will do
[02:49] <spiv> salgado: when I saw the bug I remembered I had the start of a reply open at one point until edgy failed to suspend/resume properly.
[03:06] <bradb_> kiko: do you want to look at the guided filebug demo?
[03:07] <bradb_> all that's required is a web browser
[03:07] <kiko> bradb_, YES please
[03:07] <kiko> and love
[03:07] <kiko> we need love always
[03:08] <bradb_> kiko: my ip is 66.130.58.77. needs the launchpad.dev host header.
[03:08] <kiko> bradb_, what port?
[03:08] <bradb_> 80!
[03:08] <kiko> that host doesn't answer my pings
[03:09] <kiko> bradb_?
[03:09] <kiko> do you remember what was the issue last time?
[03:10] <bradb_> kiko: you said maybe a header was missing or something? we never did get it working, which was my concern for this time.
[03:10] <bradb_> i thought you merge my branch would be easier, but...
[03:10] <kiko> yeah I know
[03:11] <kiko> SteveA, ping?
[03:11] <kiko> flacoste, ping?
[03:11] <flacoste> kiko: pong
[03:11] <kiko> flacoste, can you access bradb_'s box?
[03:12] <philroche> Hi Guys, how do I go about deleting a product I set up on launchpad?
[03:13] <flacoste> kiko: without a problem
[03:13] <SteveA> kiko: yes?
[03:13] <flacoste> kiko: i added his IP as launchpad.dev to my host file and I can preview the http://launchpad.dev/products/firefox/+filebug
[03:13] <kiko> that doesn't work for me AT ALL
[03:13] <flacoste> kiko: correct IP address ;-)
[03:13] <flacoste> ?
[03:14] <kiko> VF
[03:14] <kiko> 66.130.58.77 launchpad.dev
[03:14] <flacoste> yep
[03:14] <flacoste> kiko: btw, ping doesn't work for me either
[03:14] <kiko> I only have this problem with bradb for some reason
[03:15] <flacoste> kiko: ooh
[03:15] <kiko> what
[03:15] <flacoste> bradb_: are you on videotron?
[03:15] <bradb_> flacoste: yeah
[03:15] <flacoste> kiko: that's the problem
[03:15] <bradb_> !?
[03:15] <kiko> what's the problem?
[03:15] <flacoste> kiko, bradb_: i'm on videontron too
[03:16] <kiko> SteveA, can you connect to bradb_'s host?
[03:16] <flacoste> but they close port 80 from outside
[03:16] <flacoste> kiko: he won't 
[03:16] <kiko> bradb_, can you perchance put the server on another port?
[03:16] <kiko> flacoste, I can connect but no answer comes back strangely enough
[03:16] <kiko> i.e.
[03:16] <flacoste> kiko: videotron disallows hosting a server
[03:17] <kiko> kiko@beetle:~$ telnet 66.130.58.77 80
[03:17] <kiko> Trying 66.130.58.77...
[03:17] <kiko> Connected to 66.130.58.77.
[03:17] <kiko> Escape character is '^] '.
[03:17] <kiko> GET / HTTP/1.0
[03:17] <kiko> ...
[03:17] <kiko> [time passes] 
[03:17] <flacoste> kiko: so they firewall the most common ports, i always put my server >1024 ports :-)
[03:24] <bradb_> kiko: can you try port 8080 now?
[03:24] <kiko> bradb_, yayzers!
[03:25] <bradb_> sweet
[03:25] <kiko> bradb_, does everybody get guided filebug, or only special users?
[03:25] <bradb_> kiko: everybody
[03:25] <kiko> are distro team okay with it or will they freak out?
[03:27] <bradb_> kiko: i'm thinking they could just bookmark the link to the complicated form
[03:27] <bradb_> and forcing searching for dupes is nothing new
[03:27] <kiko> "complicated form"?
[03:27] <kiko> our form is pretty simple actually
[03:27] <bradb_> it's not very complicated yet :)
[03:27] <kiko> so there is no link in launchpad to the "complicated form"?
[03:28] <bradb_> kiko: it's linked from +filebug
[03:28] <bradb_> "You may prefer the _complicated bug filing form_."
[03:28] <kiko> mpt?
[03:32] <SteveA> spiv: ping
[03:32] <spiv> SteveA: pong
[03:33] <SteveA> spiv: I'd like to agree the shortlist stuff with you now, so I don't need to be involved in the mailing list thread
[03:33] <SteveA> I have some other things I need to pay attention to
[03:33] <SteveA> you had some questions about exactly what I was talking about?
[03:33] <spiv> Just about precisely which exceptions you were proposing to use.
[03:34] <SteveA> I don't know the answer to that
[03:34] <SteveA> I want a hard shortlist limit to work like a hard timeout OOPS, but with its own exception subclass
[03:34] <SteveA> so we can sort it differently in oops reports, and do a custom error page if we want to
[03:35] <SteveA> I want a soft shortlist limit to work like a soft timeout OOPS, but with the ability to sort it into its own group in OOPS reports.
[03:35] <spiv> That sounds ok, so you want a subclass of an existing exception there.  That's what I was curious about.
[03:35] <kiko> bradb_, I think I will need special rules to redirect traffic from 8080 to 80 because otherwise links are all bustage
[03:35] <kiko> ARGH
[03:35] <SteveA> I've been away from the code here for a short while
[03:36] <SteveA> so I've forgotten the exact names of things
[03:36] <kiko> salgado, what's the magic redirection thingy
[03:36] <salgado> eh?
[03:36] <kiko> iptables fu 
[03:36] <bradb_> kiko: maybe i can change that, actually
[03:36] <kiko> bradb_, ah?
[03:36] <bradb_> maybe it's a conf option in LP
[03:36] <kiko> mebbe
[03:36] <spiv> Right.  So basically, I wanted to understand if you were proposing to use (and extend) the existing exception hierarchy, or for totally new exceptions.
[03:37] <SteveA> you can configure launchpad to render canonical URLs etc. on whatever port and host you want
[03:37] <SteveA> it's all in launchpad.conf
[03:37] <SteveA> there are two important concepts: how links and location headers appear, facing outwards
[03:37] <SteveA> and how launchpad interprets the Host: header coming in
[03:38] <spiv> It sounds like you're planning on using the existing exceptions, rather than inventing a new hierarchy.  That's what I was hoping to hear :)
[03:38] <SteveA> you control these through the MMMM_base_url and the MMMM_host settings
[03:38] <SteveA> spiv: yes
[03:38] <kiko> SteveA, you are so sweet
[03:38] <kiko> mpt!
[03:38] <MagicFab> Is there a way, as an admin of a LP team, to email all members ?
[03:38] <SteveA> spiv: just slotting it into what we have, but making sure we can group it separately in oops reports if we want to
[03:39] <spiv> Right.  Sounds ideal.
[03:39] <SteveA> cool.  thanks for making the original suggestion and for moving this forward, spiv.
[03:40] <bradb_> SteveA: how do i set the port? i can't see anything about ports in launchpad.conf or MMMM_base_url (whatever MMMM means)
[03:40] <bradb_> I've never seen 4 M's together like that in my life
[03:42] <salgado> MagicFab, no, that's not possible. :/
[03:43] <SteveA> bradb_: those aren't literal Ms
[03:43] <SteveA> they are replaced by "blueprint" or "main"
[03:43] <SteveA> mpt: make sure lifeless deals with the PQM issue for you first thing tomorrow
[03:44] <SteveA> as this will be blocking important stuff you need to land
[03:45] <kiko> SteveA, can you point bradb_ to a specific file? I can't make any sense out of that either
[03:46] <bradb_> i.e. main_hostname launchpad.dev:8080
[03:46] <bradb_> but i have my doubts
[03:46] <bradb_> nope, not that
[03:47] <bradb_> ah, root_url
[03:48] <bradb_> kiko: fixed
[03:48] <kiko> bradb_!
[03:49] <kiko> trying
[03:49] <kiko> bradb_: http://launchpad.dev:8080/malone/bugs/+package
[03:49] <kiko> that page is unchanged
[03:50] <bradb> it's changed, actually
[03:50] <kiko> oh?
[03:50] <bradb> the "I don't know" widget is new
[03:50] <kiko> does that page serve a purpose?
[03:50] <bradb> but kind of hard to do contextless guided
[03:50] <kiko> bradb, I don't quite see why it's hard to do contextless guided
[03:51] <kiko> but perhaps the right question is why do we have that page?
[03:51] <bradb> kiko: requires extra effort to create a different workflow, when i'd rather see that page disappear
[03:51] <kiko> why not do that?
[03:52] <kiko> I guess that's besides the point now though
[03:52] <bradb> kiko: it would require changing the Malone homepage too, and i see red tape
[03:52] <bradb> e.g. adding a "Jump to distribution" box, etc.
[03:53] <kiko> bradb, I think I'd rather the +filebug page looked like https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+addticket when you hit it
[03:54] <bradb> kiko: interesting, because flacoste said he liked the way the guided filebug workflow looked instead :)
[03:54] <kiko> bradb, I also think that it may be a good idea to so some selective display based on whether the person is a member of a team..
[03:54] <kiko> bradb, I particularly dislike the button saying "Search for similar bugs"
[03:54] <kiko> because the person is reporting a bug
[03:55] <kiko> the ordered list appears in a very unexpected place
[03:55] <kiko> and the numbers should probably be prefixed by "Step"
[03:55] <kiko> even then I think there's a risk it'll confuse people and in particular experienced users
[03:57] <bradb> kiko: what kind of selective display are you thinking?
[03:57] <kiko> bradb, perhaps only showing the link to people in a certain group?
[03:58] <kiko> and not calling it "complicated bug filing form" 
[03:58] <kiko> because complicated is a really bad word :-(
[03:58] <MagicFab> re: system users in Calmav, I found this - http://www.clamav.net/doc/0.88.3/html/node13.html
[03:58] <MagicFab> oups - wrong ch. ;)
[04:01] <bradb> kiko: I stole that idea for somewhere else, but I can't remember where now.
[04:02] <bradb> I think it's fun, for example, that Flickr's advanced search page says "Or, return to the _basic search without all the knobs and twiddly bits_."
[04:02] <bradb> s/for somewhere/from somewhere/
[04:03] <kiko> bradb, that would be in line with flickr's general style, but not so much with launchpad's
[04:03] <bradb> heh
[04:03] <kiko> seriously!
[04:03] <bradb> i know :/
[04:03] <bradb> kind of unfortunate, IMHO
[04:04] <ddaa> bradb+
[04:04] <ddaa> ++
[04:04] <ddaa> I think launcphad is a bit too self absorbed in looking professional and not quite enough concerned in giving users a bender.
[04:05] <LarstiQ> perhaps launchpad doesn't want to share the shiny metal ass.
[04:05] <ddaa> though probably the 1.0 UI will change that
[04:07] <bradb> kiko: is there an obvious reason why the link to the advanced bug filing form should be only selectively shown?
[04:09] <bradb> kiko: Another example of awesome linking is KDE's "_The most hated bugs_" on their homepage. Nothing wrong with a little daring, IMHO.
[04:17] <MagicFab> bradb, the oldest unresolved would be nice too
[04:18] <bradb> MagicFab: "_The most neglected bugs_"! :)
[04:18] <MagicFab> I know I did an advanced search on my own reported bugs so I could show *all*  bugs I have filled, including duplicates, rejected, etc. Which reminds me I have to go a loooong way before my reports are good :)
[04:19] <kiko> bradb, the "No bugs matching" step is useless. take the user to the file bug form.
[04:20] <bradb> kiko: ah, right, with a notification bubble saying no bugs matching, i guess?
[04:20] <kiko> yes
[04:20] <bradb> yeah, that'd be nice
[04:21] <kiko> bradb, the text on the page where you /do/ get hits is also very very long
[04:21] <kiko> bradb, if you want daring, here is a suggestion:
[04:22] <kiko> make the page 2-column, put the steps clearly labeled in a floated right-hand-side div that the text wraps around
[04:23] <kiko> bradb, the bug filing page could display the latest 5 or 10 duplicated bugs
[04:23] <bradb> that would be dreamy (floated div steps)
[04:23] <kiko> that could be an enhancement for afterwards though
[04:23] <kiko> bradb, and easy to do, no?
[04:24] <bradb> yeah
[04:24] <kiko> I'd give that a shot as it'd take those out of the way
[04:24] <bradb> i didn't know 2-col was an option, but it's good to know
[04:25] <kiko> send me the bullets
[04:26] <bradb> will do, thanks
[04:26] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66930 in malone "It's unclear how to report a bug on a binary package from the distribution homepage" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66930
[04:35] <Seveas> SteveA, 
[04:36] <Seveas> bug 63932
[04:36] <Ubugtu> Bug 63932 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/63932 is private
[04:36] <Seveas> (bug is no longer privatenow, just did that temporarily as test)
[04:38] <SteveA> Seveas: wow.  You beat me to filing the bug!
[04:38] <SteveA> thanks
[04:44] <_thumper_> ddaa, ping
[04:44] <_thumper_> ddaa, unping
[04:49] <ddaa> _thumper_: pong, unpong
[04:56] <_thumper_> ddaa, reping
[04:57] <ddaa> _thumper_: repong?
[04:58] <_thumper_> I can't find the instructions for pqm submissions
[04:58] <_thumper_> I thought I had an email, but can't find it
[04:58] <_thumper_> also not in the LaunchpadHackingFAQ
[04:58] <ddaa> there are some wildly out of date web pages about setting up pqm on the wiki
[04:59] <_thumper_> I found one that looked like it was the original proposal
[04:59] <ddaa> I can give you the config bits I have
[04:59] <ddaa> dunno how "canonical" they are nowadays, but they workforme
[05:00] <_thumper_> I think it is just the bits for the .bazaar/bazaar.conf I need
[05:00] <_thumper_> unless there are other bits I don't know I don't know
[05:00] <ddaa> we're going to find out
[05:07] <kiko> bradb, is this todo for me or for you? :)
[05:22] <bradb> kiko: for me, of course, and maybe another Maloner in my absence
[05:23] <kiko> bradb, I was joking. I miss you already
[05:23] <bradb> heh
[05:26] <jordi> SteveA: I'm here
[05:26] <jordi> SteveA: oops, sorry. That was an old highlight
[05:27] <LarstiQ> Is anyone working on mantis support? bug 32266
[05:27] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 32266 in malone "Support Mantis as a remote bugtracker (and add ALSA's bugtracker)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32266
[05:31] <kiko> LarstiQ, not currently!
[05:31] <LarstiQ> kiko: what would it take for that to happen?
[05:31] <kiko> LarstiQ, a regular reminder from you within november
[05:31] <kiko> LarstiQ, some information on the bugtracker would help
[05:31] <kiko> does it give us an XML dump?
[05:31] <kiko> what do the URLs look like
[05:32] <kiko> what are its statuses like
[05:33] <eleusis> uhm
[05:33] <eleusis> i don't know much about mantis internals.. >_>
[05:33] <eleusis> i know it has rss feeds..!
[05:33] <LarstiQ> but you have experience with one, so we could figure it out, right?
[05:33] <eleusis> mhm
[05:34] <eleusis> how does malone talk to external bug trackers?
[05:34] <eleusis> or, does it talk at all? :)
[05:34] <eleusis> what's the interface, even..
[05:35] <kiko> eleusis, it issues HTTP requests and parses the output
[05:35] <kiko> bugzilla gives us XML so we parse that 
[05:35] <kiko> does mantis give us something similar?
[05:35] <kiko> we have a list of bug IDs
[05:35] <kiko> and would like XML for those bugs
[05:35] <kiko> that's basically it
[05:35] <eleusis> XMLRPC, you mean?
[05:35] <kiko> no
[05:35] <kiko> just xml output
[05:35] <eleusis> :P
[05:35] <kiko> simple HTTP
[05:35] <eleusis> hrm
[05:35] <eleusis> it might..
[05:36] <kiko> we can do xmlrpc of course
[05:36] <kiko> just a matter of telling me what to do
[05:37] <eleusis> what sort of information would you be looking for, in the xml dump?
[05:38] <kiko> eleusis, status, importance/priority/severity, assignee (as a bonus)
[05:38] <eleusis> righto
[05:50] <geser> malcc: hello, the Contents files on http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/edgy/ are still 4 months old
[05:50] <matsubara> who is the current maintainer of launchpad-dependencies?
[05:52] <kiko> matsubara, did you see steve's latest email?
[05:52] <kiko> it is being maintained by jbailey or somebody up in montreal IIRC.
[05:52] <kiko> geser, thank god malcc is out having lunch!!
[05:52] <eleusis> hm, seems like mantis has a toxmlrpc.inc.php file that isn't used anywhere..
[05:53] <kiko> eleusis, we can parse HTML as well but you know how robust that is..
[05:54] <eleusis> :)
[05:54] <kiko> right!
[05:55] <matsubara> thanks kiko 
[05:57] <geser> kiko: should I ask somebody else about this?
[05:57] <kiko> geser, no, I was joking; he should be in shortly
[05:58] <geser> ok
[06:02] <eleusis> well, the mantis irc channel looks dead
[06:04] <ddaa> SteveA: finished replying to recent batch of replies about importd load.
[06:04] <ddaa> SteveA: replies on points that have further discussed by other people are written in the reply to latest email that quotes it.
[06:04] <eleusis> maybe i can make a patch for mantis and send it to them
[06:05] <SteveA> ddaa: is there anything I need to catch up with before tomorrow?
[06:05] <ddaa> SteveA: I wrote a synthetic report yesterday
[06:05] <ddaa> with a plan of action
[06:06] <ddaa> the one starting with an executive summary
[06:06] <ddaa> essentially, all the stuff I wrote today was to acknowledge comments and clarify issues.
[06:11] <ddaa> so, the email that starts with "This email reports on the outcome of the discussion...", although it was a bit premature, is still correct, and has all the important information.
[06:11] <ddaa> I leave the diplomacy to poolie, since it's clearly not my strong point :)
[06:12] <LarstiQ>  oooh, get me one too
[06:12] <eleusis> :)
[06:13] <Spads> in the original series, the klingons were real politickers, always scheming to make international incidents
[06:13] <ddaa> pah! They did not have ridges on their foreheads!
[06:15] <ddaa> LarstiQ: come on... ams is a REAL troll... I'm just a mere amateur.
[06:15] <LarstiQ> hey, I agreed with your course of action! :)
[06:15] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66958 in rosetta "Parser doesn't allow multiline entries" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66958
[06:16] <kiko> eleusis, yeah, that'd be cool. 
[06:16] <kiko> eleusis, what project uses mantis that you care about, btw?
[06:16] <eleusis> xmms2
[06:17] <kiko> ah.
[06:42] <malcc> geser: Yes, we've had some delays this week. We're still working on it and still hope it will be soon
[06:43] <geser> than I will wait some more
[06:43] <geser> thanks
[07:16] <sabdfl> kiko-fud: could you get mdz some additional stats on https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+topcontributors from staging?
[07:16] <sabdfl> list of top 100 bug guys would be interesting
[07:16] <kiko-fud> sabdfl, what stats does.. ah. sure
[07:17] <kiko-fud> sabdfl, just their names?
[07:42] <salgado> wow, I got 15 conflicts to solve
[07:43] <salgado> I dont wanna see how many I'll get once flacoste-lunch lands his tt-workflow branch. :(
[07:46] <ddaa> poolie: I think you are right after all
[07:46] <ddaa> requiring "trunk" to be in the svn url may be a good idea
[07:47] <ddaa> just because it actually saves time in the end... no need to explain that we do not support non-trunk
[07:48] <ddaa> well, and if someone really wants to get something imported that does not have trunk in its name, that person can send me an email, and I'll poke it using my superpowers
[07:48] <kiko> mdz, sabdfl: https://devpad.canonical.com/~andrew/paste/fileySkMWV.html
[07:51] <mdz> kiko: thanks
[07:52] <kiko> mdz, let me know if you want more information as I still have that session open here
[07:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66972 in blueprint "Can not admin a specification" [Critical,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66972
[07:56] <kiko> DUPE 
[08:05] <BjornT> kiko, eleusis: it seems like mantis provides an CSV export of all its bugs, so it should be quite easy to add support for it.
[08:08] <kiko> BjornT, ah?
[08:09] <BjornT> yeah. on the bug listing page there's a link to export is as csv.
[08:10] <kiko> BjornT, cool. I'll do it.
[08:10] <carlos> see you tomorrow!
[08:10] <flacoste> salgado-afk: the conflicts are caused by the landing of tt-views, it adds a parameter to ITicketTarget.searchTickets, that is most of the conflicts
[08:16] <kiko> sabdfl, ping?
[08:36] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66974 in soyuz "Binary versions not checked correctly" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66974
[08:36] <kiko> jordi: how's the translation queue looking?
[08:40] <eleusis> oh
[08:41] <eleusis> yeah true, there's csv_export.php...
[08:42] <eleusis> doesn't seem to work though :-\
[08:47] <BjornT> eleusis: it doesn't? it worked for the ones i tried.
[08:48] <eleusis> do you need to select bugs to export in the bug list?
[08:48] <eleusis> bugs/reports
[08:49] <BjornT> i simply viewed a bug listing and pressed 'CSV Export'.
[08:50] <eleusis> :(
[08:51] <BjornT> i also tried a simple wget now, and it worked.
[08:51] <BjornT> eleusis: for which bug tracker doesn't it work?
[08:51] <eleusis> doesn't seem to be working with http://bugs.xmms2.xmms.se/csv_export.php
[08:53] <mdke> jordi: hi. carlos was looking for me earlier about some pot templates, should I talk to you about them too?
[08:55] <BjornT> eleusis: that's too bad. i only tried for alsa and mantisbugtracker.com
[08:56] <eleusis> hmm
[08:58] <eleusis> maybe there's a config option somewhere that turns it on or off..
[09:01] <digger3> hmm damn, I am getting only error id's like OOPS-292A579 when trying to register in launchpad, maintanance going on? :)
[09:01] <Ubugtu> https://devpad.canonical.com/~jamesh/oops.cgi/292A579
[09:02] <SteveA> ddaa: ping
[09:02] <eleusis> wtf
[09:02] <ddaa> at dinner, back in ~30 mins
[09:03] <salgado> digger3, that's a bug I'm fixing right now
[09:03] <digger3> salgado: perfect, can I wait for it, or should I try again in a few days?
[09:04] <salgado> digger3, is yor email hydra_be at hotmail dot com?
[09:04] <digger3> salgado: nope, I registered with Thomas.Markus@phil.uu.nl
[09:05] <digger3> oh wait, channel logs on the internet, hmm, too late... ah well some more spam can't hurt
[09:06] <eleusis> :D
[09:07] <salgado> digger3, I've seen an error identical in our error logs earlier today and I emailed the user explaining what happened and how to workaround it while the fix is not in production
[09:07] <salgado> digger3, just sent that email to you
[09:08] <salgado> in short, you can use https://launchpad.net/+forgottenpassword for now
[09:08] <salgado> sorry for the inconvenience, digger3.
[09:09] <kiko> eleusis, it looks like the xmms bug tracker is broken
[09:09] <kiko> eleusis, can you try contacting the admins there?
[09:09] <eleusis> seems like it!
[09:09] <eleusis> i'm one of the admins ;)
[09:09] <digger3> salgado: no problem with this kind of service
[09:09] <kiko> eleusis, whoa!
[09:09] <eleusis> the thing needs an upgrade anyway
[09:09] <eleusis> i'll have a look maybe tomorrow
[09:10] <kiko> eleusis, no, it works.
[09:10] <kiko> here:
[09:10] <kiko> http://bugs.xmms2.xmms.se/view_all_bug_page.php
[09:10] <kiko> search for "windows"
[09:11] <kiko> then click on csv export
[09:11] <eleusis> oh
[09:11] <kiko> I am wondering how it works though
[09:11] <eleusis> odd
[09:12] <kiko> probably using some gnarly JS
[09:12] <kiko> or perhaps a cookie let's see
[09:13] <kiko> yes
[09:13] <kiko> exactly
[09:13] <eleusis> probably a cookie..
[09:13] <kiko> MANTIS_BUG_LIST_COOKIE
[09:13] <eleusis> heh
[09:13] <kiko> 116%2C1164%2C1163%2C373%2C1044%2C1060%2C738%2C115%2C251
[09:13] <kiko> eleusis, can you mail me the PHP file?
[09:13] <kiko> I can figure out how to deal with it that way
[09:15] <kiko> are %2Cs colons?
[09:16] <eleusis> you can see it online at http://mantisbt.cvs.sourceforge.net/mantisbt/mantisbt/csv_export.php?revision=1.25&view=markup
[09:16] <eleusis> hm, no idea..
[09:16] <kiko> okidok
[09:16] <SteveA> python -c "print chr(0x2C)"
[09:16] <SteveA> it's a comma
[09:17] <eleusis> cool, i guess i just learned a new trick
[09:25] <Ubugtu> New bug: #66987 in launchpad "Failed to register new account" [High,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66987
[09:51] <SteveA> kiko: ping
[10:27] <kiko> SteveA, pong
[10:27] <kiko> was out in soyuzland
[10:41] <lifeless> whoever just used 'devpad' in a merge, please use the full name
[10:42] <erdalronahi> Hi, will the openoffice.org-l10n's be updated between RC and final?
[10:42] <kiko> erdalronahi, ask doko on #ubuntu-devel
[10:43] <erdalronahi> thanks
[10:47] <kiko> flacoste, help
[10:47] <flacoste> kiko: to the rescue...
[10:47] <flacoste> kiko: what can i do?
[10:47] <kiko> https://devpad.canonical.com/~andrew/paste/fileYpmDEa.html
[10:48] <kiko> flacoste, help me get out of that rathole?
[10:48] <kiko> I have a branch which does only rosetta changes
[10:48] <kiko> and yet that test insists on failing
[10:48] <kiko> snif
[10:49] <flacoste> ouch
[10:49] <flacoste> this is an ugly http() test!!!
[10:50] <flacoste> kiko: can you make sure that the URL work on launchpad.dev?
[10:50] <kiko> flacoste, what URL?
[10:51] <flacoste> kiko: /distros/ubuntu/hoary/+source/mozilla-firefox/+support-contact
[10:51] <kiko> one moment
[10:51] <kiko> pretty sure it does tho
[10:51] <flacoste> kiko: login as foo.bar
[10:52] <flacoste> kiko: and does the test also fails if you ran it independantly?
[10:52] <kiko> flacoste, it only fails in PQM.
[10:53] <kiko>   ... Content-Disposition: form-data; name="field.waant_to_be_support_contact"^M
[10:53] <kiko> spot the typo?
[10:53] <kiko> I doubt that's the issue though it could be
[10:54] <flacoste> kiko: i don't see that typo in the pastebin link
[10:54] <flacoste> kiko: i see name="field.want_to_be_support_contact.used"
[10:55] <kiko> yeah
[10:55] <kiko> the failure is in the test after that one
[10:56] <flacoste> kiko: if the typo is the culprit, it should fail locally
[10:56] <kiko> it doesn't.
[11:00] <flacoste> kiko: the AttributeError is really weird, even looks like a bug in http()
[11:00] <kiko> it's probably a bug yes
[11:01] <flacoste> kiko: is your local tree up to date? and did you try running all the standalone tests in one go?
[11:02] <kiko> yes
[11:02] <kiko> no
[11:02] <kiko> flacoste, I'll try converting it. thanks for sharing my pain
[11:03] <lifeless> the wordaround for account creation failure should be in the topic
[11:03] <lifeless> for users to find quickly
[11:03] <flacoste> kiko: you should try running all the standalone tests, you might trigger the failure locally, it would means that some changes you made weren't side-effect free
[11:03] <kiko> could be
[11:03] <flacoste> converting to testbrowser is nice though :-)
[11:04] <kiko> man this form is completely bustage
[11:04] <kiko> wtf
[11:04] <salgado> lifeless, the workaround is only necessary when somebody tries to register with an email address that was imported from bugzilla
[11:05] <lifeless> salgado: I see
[11:05] <salgado> lifeless, btw, I just finished a fix for it. would you like to review it so I can ask stub to cherry pick it tomorrow?
[11:05] <kiko> TV'S GOT THEM IMAGES 
[11:05] <kiko> NOTHING'S SHOCKING
[11:05] <lifeless> salgado: sure
[11:05] <lifeless> kiko: dude!
[11:06] <lifeless> salgado: mail me the diff
[11:06] <salgado> lifeless, great! https://devpad.canonical.com/~andrew/paste/filephAkIK.html
[11:06] <salgado> prefer email?
[11:06] <lifeless> heh, that will do
[11:06] <lifeless> no, paste is fine
[11:06] <salgado> cool
[11:06] <kiko> f*** f***
[11:06] <kiko> I hate this form
[11:07] <salgado> lifeless, basically, I'm changing Person.validateAndEnsurePreferredEmail() to do nothing if you pass the person's preferred email to it
[11:08] <flacoste> kiko: remember that this form is tested on all context, you might have to convert all of them, and if the problem is caused by a side-effect, it's probable that another unrelated test will trigger it
[11:08] <flacoste> kiko: what was the standalone test ran by PQM just before that one?
[11:08] <salgado> previously it would assert that the given email is not the actual person's preferred email, but I see no real reason for that
[11:09] <kiko> flacoste, xx-distro-release-bugs-portlet.txt
[11:10] <lifeless> flacoste: kiko: this is why test isolation is important!
[11:10] <kiko> lifeless, let me just sulk in peace
[11:10] <kiko> this is destroying my poor little soul
[11:12] <flacoste> kiko: did you modifyt xx-distribution-translations.txt ?
[11:12] <kiko> flacoste, hmm, maybe. let me check.
[11:12] <lifeless> I thought we made all the standalone ones get a db reset in between ?
[11:12] <kiko> it's not a DB issue
[11:13] <kiko> it is a zope test issue
[11:15] <lifeless> salgado: whats the branch name ?
[11:15] <Ubugtu> New bug: #67014 in soyuz "'queue fetch' safety catch is slightly too stiff" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67014
[11:15] <salgado> lifeless, person-creation-rationale
[11:17] <jordi> kiko: I've sent queries to the import requesters
[11:17] <jordi> I think all the requests that were clear enough (ie, I could check that the requester is indeed related to upstream) are done
[11:17] <lifeless> salgado: check your mail
[11:19] <SteveA> salgado: I replied to your message about using staging to test shipit changes
[11:19] <SteveA> I want to use staging as normal tomorrow morning (UTC)
[11:19] <lifeless> salgado: I forgot to put this in the review.
[11:19] <SteveA> but it'll be fine tomorrow afternoon
[11:19] <SteveA> does that work for you, salgado ?
[11:20] <lifeless> salgado: perhaps we should have a test for the use case of 'register an imported person'
[11:20] <lifeless> salgado: to be sure that no other surprises sneak up on us.
[11:20] <salgado> SteveA, yeah, that should do it.  wouldn't it be possible to just merge my changes on top of HEAD?
[11:20] <jordi> is edgy going to be pressed and shipped via ship it, or is it still going to be dapper?
[11:21] <SteveA> salgado: maybe, but you didn't ask that
[11:21] <salgado> lifeless, I added one to registering an imported person and to claiming one.
[11:21] <SteveA> salgado: maybe reply to my email asking for that?
[11:21] <salgado> SteveA, sure, will do that
[11:21] <SteveA> ta
[11:22] <lifeless> salgado: hmm, you added one /like/ a current imported one
[11:22] <lifeless> salgado: in the specific way that broke
[11:22] <lifeless> salgado: I'm talking a broader test
[11:23] <lifeless> salgado: that is, that we have a person in the sample data which is 'imported user'
[11:23] <lifeless> the import script tests can check that that person matches what they create
[11:23] <salgado> ah, I see
[11:23] <lifeless> and we can then on anything that has to deal with 'imported users' use 'imported user'. I.e. malone, foaf, etc
[11:24] <salgado> but there will be different types of imported users
[11:24] <lifeless> so its a sensitive trap for other unexpected assumptions
[11:24] <salgado> for instance, users imported with gina won't have a preferred email nor a password
[11:24] <lifeless> salgado: for that we then want a loop around each stereotypical user
[11:24] <lifeless> 'bugzilla imported user', 'gine imported user', 'sf imported user'
[11:24] <salgado> but users imported with the bugzilla importer will have a preferred email and no password
[11:25] <salgado> I think we can simplify this actually, because we may only have invalid profiles without preferred email (gina/pofile imported)
[11:25] <salgado> and invalid profiles with preferred email (bugzilla imported)
[11:26] <lifeless> never a password ?
[11:26] <salgado> none of them have a password, no
[11:26] <lifeless> ok
[11:26] <lifeless> the point is to:
[11:27] <lifeless>  - have the importer code determine what their profiles look like and check there is sample data that is representative
[11:27] <lifeless> this allows other subsystems to check they work with all the importers without having to know what those importers create
[11:28] <lifeless>  - for tests which are checking we handle imported people, run them once per sample data item
[11:28] <lifeless> obviously not needed for this merge
[11:28] <salgado> yeah, that sounds like a good plan
[11:28] <lifeless> just considering root cause and how to prevent it recurring
[11:28] <salgado> I'll file a bug for that
[11:29] <kiko> flacoste, the answer is no.
[11:30] <flacoste> kiko: ok, i really think you should try running all the pagetests locally, just to make sure the failure isn't caused by your changes
[11:30] <flacoste> flacoste: take a break while they run ;-)
[11:30] <kiko> what's a break?
[11:31] <flacoste> eat something, see the temperature outside, anything but be in front of the computer screen
[11:32] <flacoste> of course, that's easy to say, when running all functional tests take 15 mins on my machine... thanks to my upgrade
[11:34] <kiko> I hate you
[11:34] <flacoste> lol
[11:36] <kiko> and I hate this form
[11:36] <kiko> and the zope widget that it uses
[11:36] <kiko> can you friggin believe how broken it is? I can't
[11:37] <flacoste> this support-contacts have come to my attention just recently
[11:37] <flacoste> s/support-contacts/& tests/
[11:37] <kiko> seriously
[11:37] <kiko> look at the form controls
[11:38] <kiko> <label style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.0" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="admins" />&nbsp;Launchpad Administrators</label><br /><label style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.1" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="launchpad-buildd-admins" />&nbsp;Launchpad Buildd Admins</label><br /><label
[11:38] <kiko>  style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.2" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="launchpad" />&nbsp;Launchpad Developers</label><br /><label style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.3" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="testing-spanish-team" />&nbsp;testing Spanish team</label><br /><label style="font-
[11:38] <kiko> weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.4" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="name18" />&nbsp;Ubuntu Gnome Team</label><br /><label style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkboxType" id="field.support_contact_teams.5" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="ubuntu-team" />&nbsp;Ubuntu Team</label><br /><label style="font-weight: normal"><input class="checkbo
[11:38] <kiko> xType" id="field.support_contact_teams.6" name="field.support_contact_teams" type="checkbox" value="vcs-imports" />&nbsp;VCS imports</label>
[11:38] <kiko> the checkboxes all have the same names!!!!!!
[11:38] <flacoste> actually, i think mpt wants the new subscribe form to look like that
[11:38] <kiko> and the worst part is
[11:38] <kiko> getControl() can't fetch them
[11:38] <flacoste> why?
[11:38] <kiko> (Pdb) p user_browser.getControl(name="field.support_contact_teams")
[11:38] <kiko> <ListControl name='field.support_contact_teams' type='checkbox'>
[11:38] <kiko> (Pdb) p user_browser.getControl(name="field.support_contact_teams", index=1)
[11:38] <kiko> *** IndexError: <exceptions.IndexError instance at 0x32a66918>
[11:39] <flacoste> there is only one
[11:39] <kiko> no
[11:39] <kiko> there are actually 7
[11:39] <flacoste> checkboxes
[11:39] <flacoste> but not control
[11:39] <flacoste> that's a ListControl
[11:39] <kiko> what does that mean?
[11:39] <flacoste> you can set it's value like that:
[11:39] <kiko> can I get the individual checkboxes?
[11:40] <flacoste> yep by label
[11:40] <kiko> did you not see my flood above?
[11:40] <kiko> try finding the labels
[11:40] <kiko> mwahahaha
[11:40] <flacoste> take a look at ticket-tracker/03-ticket-searching for inspiration
[11:40] <flacoste> the status control is also a list of checkboxes
[11:41] <flacoste> browser.getControl(Ubuntu Team').selected = True
[11:41] <flacoste> or 
[11:41] <lifeless> ddaa: want to see something crack
[11:41] <flacoste> browser.getControl(name='field.support_contact_teams').value = ['Ubuntu Team'] 
[11:42] <flacoste> kiko: ^^^
[11:42] <kiko> hmmm
[11:43] <flacoste> actually, if you set the value of the ListControl, you should use the values, not the label
[11:43] <flacoste> so: browser.getControl(name='field.support_contact_teams').value = ['ubuntu-team', 'vcs-import,] 
[11:44] <kiko> yeah
[11:44] <kiko> I'm doing that
[11:44] <lifeless> ddaa - read this http://sourceforge.net/svn/?group_id=28597
[11:44] <lifeless> not in particular the instructions to do a DOS on the svn server ;)
[11:45] <Ubugtu> New bug: #67021 in launchpad "Need multiple examples of invalid profiles that we can have in production" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67021
[11:55] <ddaa> lifeless: ?
[11:55] <lifeless> ddaa: the sample svn co they give checks out /
[11:55] <ddaa> ha right
[11:56] <ddaa> that's the generic sourceforge checkout instructions
[11:56] <ddaa> "This project's SourceForge.net Subversion repository can be checked out through SVN with the following instruction set:"
[11:56] <ddaa> which is entirely correct :)
[11:56] <ddaa> " 	(Warning: This is a generic Subversion checkout command which will pull all modules, tags and/or branches of the 	project. Please refer to project home page for specific SVN instructions, or use "Browse Repository" link;  	in most cases, you will want to 	add '/trunk' to the HTTPS URL above to check out only trunk (main development line))."
[11:56] <lifeless> yup
[11:56] <lifeless> but who reads instructions
[11:56] <ddaa> well, that's old news
[11:57] <ddaa> these whole generic svn/cvs instruction pages are just plain useless and stupid
[11:58] <ddaa> anyway... that might explain why so many people set up svn on sourceforge with the sourcecode directly at the repo root...
[11:58] <lifeless> hahah
[12:00] <ddaa> lifeless: you certainly have a point though, that those instructions are plain harmful...
[12:00] <ddaa> I did not quite realise the extent of the wrongness before :)
[12:01] <ddaa> lifeless: anyway... I just spent too much time clearing out vcs import details for non-trunk branches today.
[12:01] <ddaa> I'll let it rest for a while, but I think I'll end up doing just what poolie suggested
[12:02] <ddaa> will reconsider whenever we have non-trunk import support
[12:03] <ddaa> About sourceforge, this is one of those pages that you read the first time,
[12:03] <ddaa> then realise that it's useless
[12:04] <ddaa> and ends up just classified as "the dumb page I have to go through to see the viewsvn"
[12:04] <lifeless> we should strive to not have those ourselves
[12:05] <ddaa> give me unlimited time and resources, and I'll make something really great ;)
[12:07] <ddaa> short of that a few rules of thumbs I think can help a lot: * do not talk down to users * remove uncessary constraints * for each piece of information on the page, ask "how does that help the user"
[12:07] <ddaa> but I have woved not to bitch about UI until after 1.0 :)
[12:08] <ddaa> for example the bugbranch page is plain bogus...
[12:08] <ddaa> actually, must of the bugbranch UI is bogus...