=== Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:44] morning all === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jjesse [n=jjesse@69-87-139-8.async.iserv.net] has left #kubuntu-devel [] [12:49] hey Hobbsee [12:50] hey Hobbsee [12:51] gnomefreak: no clue, is kdevelop3 looking for kdevelop3-data or kdevelop-data? and is kdevelop-data a meta package for kdevelop3-data? (kindof like python represents the current version of python, gcc represents the current version of gcc, etc) [12:51] :) [12:52] ryanakca: i'd guess kdevelop-data, based on that [12:52] kdevelop3 brought in kdevelop kdevelop-data kdevelop3 [12:52] lil over lap? [12:53] brb have to put pump back in [12:54] think it'll work because kdevelop-data = 4:3.3.4-1ubuntu2 [12:55] Get:4 http://ca.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/universe kdevelop3 4:3.3.2+dummy1 [9568B] [12:56] Get:2 http://ca.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/universe kdevelop 4:3.3.4-1ubuntu2 [8084kB] [12:56] that mean that they're the same? (I'm wondering about +dummy1...) different file sizes, mind you... [12:59] Description: Dummy package for transition to kdevelop The package kdevelop3 has been renamed to kdevelop. [01:00] i guess its just a "meta package" [01:01] ah, kk === ryanakca wonders why ktorrent is so slow... 20 peers, 16.2kb/s... RC image :( [01:05] down to 4.6KB/s... I guess my teacher will have to wait a day or two :) either that or be patient till the 26th [01:11] mine were slow too, the Ubuntu rc was faster,had more peers === bddebian [n=bdefrees@71.224.172.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === oslo [n=oslo@82.225.102.119] has joined #kubuntu-devel === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel === freeflying [n=freeflyi@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel === freeflying [i=flyingfr@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=Jack@221.216.191.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jjesse_ [n=jjesse@69-87-139-8.async.iserv.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:25] good evening :) [03:44] morning all === orkid__ [n=orkid__@bas1-barrie18-1242375048.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #kubuntu-devel === rideout [n=rideout@71-208-14-13.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:43] hello freeflying [04:43] jjesse_: hey :) === jjesse_ [n=jjesse@69-87-139-8.async.iserv.net] has left #kubuntu-devel [] === ltmon [n=ltmon@210-15-225-178-static.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #kubuntu-devel === neoncode [n=neoncode@unaffiliated/neoncode] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:51] Hi all, I'm currently getting a really crash-prone kded in Edgy (upgraded from Dapper). I can't really find any reliable way to crash it, but suffice to say it happens several times a day. I was hoping someone could give me a quick rundown on how to get a stack trace of the crash. I have already installed the kdebase-dbg and kdelibs-dbg packages, and I can restart the daemon whenever it crashes ... what next? === Jucato_ [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel [05:44] With regards to my last question: I Just figured it out. It is a buggy version of kdesvn that is packaged for Edgy causing the crash. See https://launchpad.net/bugs/61494. [05:44] Malone bug 61494 in kdesvn "Wrong desktop file entry for subversion" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=Jack@221.216.191.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.229.113] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=Jack@221.216.191.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Tm_T [i=tm_travo@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #kubuntu-devel [] === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt is away: === jack_wyt is away: === jack_wyt [n=Jack@221.216.191.103] has joined #kubuntu-devel === nuku2 [n=nuku@unaffiliated/nuku] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel === marseillai_ [n=cyril@AMarseille-256-1-159-126.w90-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #kubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === poningru_ [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #kubuntu-devel === pascalFR [i=OMS8TKcD@cha92-7-82-230-174-61.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=Jack@61.149.4.35] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #kubuntu-devel === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #kubuntu-devel [08:35] Riddell: I had a strange kded hang when kmail using kwalletmanager wanted to retreive the mail after the boot - kded CPU went to 100% and I could only kill kded with -9 [08:36] Riddell: then I started from command line and got some errors like this http://paste.tonio.homelinux.org/33 [08:37] Riddell: this opencrypto errors do not look nice and I know that crypto was changed recently - do we need to rebuild something with new opencrypto? === Lure_ [n=lure@BSN-77-152-53.dsl.siol.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Lure_ [n=lure@BSN-77-152-53.dsl.siol.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato_ [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel === _superstoned [n=supersto@86.92.111.236] has joined #kubuntu-devel === freeflying [i=flyingfr@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #kubuntu-devel === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #kubuntu-devel === el [n=konversa@port-83-236-238-37.static.qsc.de] has joined #kubuntu-devel === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ViRiDiS79 [n=viridis@vodsl-2201.vo.lu] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ViRiDiS79 [n=viridis@vodsl-2201.vo.lu] has left #kubuntu-devel [] [11:36] i can't reproduce Bug #65455 kdemultimedia installs fine for me === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #kubuntu-devel [11:36] Bug #65455 [11:37] seaLne: the bots are gone... [11:37] yeah just noticed [11:37] [UNMETDEPS] kdemultimedia has unmet dependencies === jack_wyt_ [n=Jack@61.149.4.35] has joined #kubuntu-devel [11:39] i'll mark as fixed === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #kubuntu-devel === seaLne has more coffee and decides not to do anymore until the caffeine kicks in doh === allee [n=ach@allee.exgal.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #kubuntu-devel === fritsch [i=n8QYxtwd@nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #kubuntu-devel === superstoned_ [n=supersto@86.92.111.236] has joined #kubuntu-devel === freeflying [i=flyingfr@gobstopper.dreamhost.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=Jack@61.149.4.35] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Tonio_ [n=tonio@223.207.103-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:19] ih [12:19] hi [12:21] hi Tonio_ [12:24] excuse me Tonio_, someone was asking about a focus bug in KDE 3.5.5. was it fixed? [12:24] Jucato: dunno about this bug.... [12:25] any bug id ? [12:25] hm ok I'll look for it. he asked in #kde === Huahua [n=hua_@122.0.229.7] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:25] Jucato: okay === pef [n=loic@ubuntu/member/pef] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato_ [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel [12:41] Tl [12:41] bug 135250 [12:41] kde bug 135250 [12:41] KDE bug 135250 in general "desktop unusable due to flickering of windows if not "focus follows click"" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135250 [12:41] Tonio_: this one... [12:42] Jucato: having a look [12:42] great. thanks :) [12:43] Jucato: to late to upload a patch anyway, but we could ship an update after the release is out [12:43] ah. guess it was too late after all :) [12:44] okay the patch is given.... [12:44] Jucato: I'll prepare packages locally and discuss with Riddell and mdz to upload as an update once edgy is out [12:45] Jucato: I also have another patch to eventually upload too [12:45] ah ok. that'd be great. so the patch would be out only after Edgy's released [12:45] yes, unfortunately [12:46] well, if I had known it sooner, I it could have probably made it... [12:47] Jucato: could you confirm http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135999 [12:47] KDE bug 135999 in general "Konqueror segfault with audiocd:/" [Crash,Unconfirmed] [12:47] ? [12:47] er... not on Linux right now... === Jucato sobs... [12:47] sorry Tonio_ :( [12:49] Jucato: no pb ;) === Tonio_ leave to get his new electronic passport... [12:49] no uds without this :) [12:49] oooh coolness :) [12:50] Jucato: bah 60 just because of USA paranoia :) [12:50] not that cool in my opinion hehe :) [12:50] err... now that you mention it... :P [12:51] hehe [12:52] I wish the paranoia would disappear before the January next year. some relatives of mine from USA are planning to visit us here :) === PascalFR_ [n=PascalFr@pcpc.vmfacility.fr] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ajmitch is thankful that his passport (issued exactly 1 year ago) is ok for entering the US :) [12:55] since I got the passport renewed so I could travel to UBZ in montreal :) [12:56] heh [12:56] i'm just glad i dont have to have one right now === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #kubuntu-devel [01:07] Riddell: interesting: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=47593 [01:07] Lure: presumably not your patch? [01:08] Riddell: no - they just do system("pmi action hibernate") - no detection what is supported and similar. I added comment with link to my patch [01:08] yeah, it's very simplistic that patch [01:08] Riddell: there is also comment that SuSE has something similar ;-) [01:12] Riddell: how do we stand with your pile of uploads for the release - will they get accepted? [01:15] Lure: kdelibs and k-d-s just got in, just katapult to go I think [01:17] Riddell: and guidance-powermanager? [01:18] Riddell: accepted: [01:18] [13:17] Kamion: kdelibs and kde-guidance, yes, please. [01:19] yep [01:20] k-d-s still to be approved [01:20] moins Lure & Riddell [01:21] Sorry for disturbing in this "hot period" of working, but ist there a chance, that the kde-guidance-powermanager will be able to "get" XF86Standby keycodes, which are correctly mapped already? [01:22] fritsch: we patch those in kdebase as I recall, Lure can confirm [01:22] pykde doesn't work with global keyboard accelarators alas [01:23] fritsch: not for edgy - I wanted to do something in ksmserver, but we were already in RC freeze [01:23] ah, yes [01:23] Lure: oki, thx very much [01:23] you could use ksticky keys and dcop interfaces of power-manager - I might write a small howto for this [01:24] Lure: this would be even nicer :-) thank you! and have fun and get some calm [01:24] stress is poison === fritsch good to say only some day before the release [01:25] fritsch: I have stress at work, kubuntu is to calm down ;-) [01:27] yay, katapult, qts and k-d-s all accepted [01:27] so we're sorted for edgy! nothing can go wrong now! [01:27] Riddell: copied and pasted "this.13:27" for my blog [01:28] have fun altogether and thx for your great work! === fritsch [i=n8QYxtwd@nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #kubuntu-devel ["Konversation] [01:36] Riddell: great news ;) [01:36] haha, got it ! [01:37] Riddell: I have a fix for THE oldest kubuntu bug [01:37] mm? [01:37] Riddell: the 'incomplete konqueror menus" bug [01:37] I found a patch on the net [01:38] I tested here widelly, and it works like a charm [01:38] Riddell: bug 41594 [01:38] Malone bug 41594 in kubuntu-default-settings "dapper: konqueror (web) won't always show all menu entries" [Medium,In progress] http://launchpad.net/bugs/41594 [01:40] Riddell: here is the patch : http://paste.tonio.homelinux.org/34 [01:40] I also tested the "merged stop and reload buttons" [01:40] works nicelly but I think it causes konq crashes sometimes [01:40] I have to investigate [01:41] Riddell: I put all the stuff on my repo, we'll test during the uds [01:41] I really would like to see that bug closed... [01:45] Riddell: to reproduce the bug :http://light.pcinpact.com/actu/news/32232-iPod-cinq-ans.htm?ca=&vc=1&p=2&#c879782 [01:45] click on "plus beaux" link [01:46] it loads a new window, with incomplete "view" menu [01:46] konqueror ignores kds settings [01:46] with the patch, it works === oslo [n=oslo@alf94-5-82-225-102-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [01:53] nifty [02:11] Riddell: this is nice fix: http://commit-digest.org/issues/2006-10-22/moreinfo/585670/ === abattoir [n=abattoir@cm238.omega16.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:13] Lure, +1 i seem to be bitten by that bug quite a bit i think [02:13] imbrandon: me too - I just got used to it (so I did not notice it even) :-( [02:15] Riddell, that looks like a fairly trivial change that closes a TON of bugs, think i coudl get that in now ? [02:15] imbrandon: we should find LP bugs that are cause by this... [02:16] s/ProgressItem *mMailCheckProgressItem;/QGuardedPtr mMailCheckProgressItem;/ is the change [02:16] it would need testing, then can go in edgy-updates [02:16] Riddell, kk [02:17] since i seem to be bitten by that bug i'll build it and put it up for Lure and me to test , sound ok Lure ? [02:17] then we can go from there [02:17] imbrandon: will do [02:17] kk i'll make a patch and build it now [02:17] please tell me your on i386 [02:17] hehe [02:18] i386 [02:18] kk [02:40] Lure, well that pacth dosent seem to be the total fix [02:41] becouse its already in edgy [02:41] ( kde 3.5.5 ) [02:41] :-( [02:41] It seems we need to report 3.5.5 crashes to b.k.o... [02:41] yea === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #kubuntu-devel === marseillai [n=cyril@AMarseille-256-1-129-37.w90-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato [n=Jucato@210.213.192.142] has joined #kubuntu-devel === LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:37] Riddell: do you have rights to approve kubuntu related specs or not ? [03:37] Tonio_: no [03:38] Riddell: okay, I'll be writing the 2 other specs we want for the uds (samba integration and voip solution) and email mdz [03:38] Riddell: are you okay to discuss this during the uds ? [03:41] Tonio_: you don't need to e-mail mdz, he'll get notification of them all [03:41] Tonio_: I am yes [03:42] Riddell: yes but he asked for email concerning the specs to discuss at uds [03:42] oh, I didn't see that === marseillai_ [n=cyril@AMarseille-256-1-119-200.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #kubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bdefrees@mail.ottens.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:49] Howdy [03:50] hi all [03:51] hi bddebian, hi mhb :) [03:51] Hello mhb, Jucato [03:51] imbrandon: should we push this for uds-mtv: https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firefox-kde-support [03:57] Lure: in my opinion we should target konqueror, really === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:58] Tonio_: may firefox users (like me) are not satisfied with suboptimal behaviour [03:59] Tonio_: I try to switch to konqueror every couple of months, but I cannot [03:59] :-( [03:59] And firefox is widely used browser and deserves better [03:59] Lure: the problem is that the patches to integrate konqueror to kde are nasty hacks [04:02] Tonio_: firefox, you mean [04:03] mhb: yes :) sorry [04:07] I still don't get the half feature half bug 67314 [04:07] Malone bug 67314 in kubuntu-default-settings "[edgy] Can't show root (/) in gtk file chooser after update to edgy" [Wishlist,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/67314 [04:07] why is it good that it can't show root? === ledter [n=ledter@scipc-rf.unilim.fr] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:09] mhb: heh, I guess it's a side-effect that it affects GNOME in addition to KDE === jdong is personally not a big fan of it in either environment... he rm -f /.hidden :) === mhb just noticed it does in KDE's open dialogue too [04:10] why? [04:11] I can name a milion of times when I need to open /usr/ and I'm accustomed to going to "/" and then clicking my way through [04:11] million times, sorry === luis_lopez [n=luis_lop@68.182.93.76] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:16] mhb: the stupid user paradigm, I guess... users are too stupid to know that anything other than /home and /media exist :P [04:16] you can tell I'm not happy about it either [04:19] Riddell: the mail's subject is "UDS Mountain View: Call for Topics", sent on 10/14 [04:25] Tonio_: which says to 'click "Propose for meeting agenda"' not to e-mail matt [04:27] Riddell: yes, my memory sometimes segfault :) [04:27] I'll re-read it to do it correctly === jdong dives into ktorrent SVN to pull out more speed fixes [04:28] who made the decision of hiding all dirs except /media and /home in / ? [04:29] mhb: was a common decision and _Sime implemented this [04:29] hm... [04:29] or maybe _Sime decided and we agreed :) [04:29] mhb: why ? [04:29] it seems illogical to me [04:30] mhb: why ? [04:30] Tonio_: because for a user to be browsing through the filesystem, he already has a purpose set out [04:31] if he just wanted /home and /media, there's buttons for those on the shortcut pane thingie [04:31] Tonio_: I know I'm not the most typical user in the world but I take me a lot as example. When I want to go to my home dir I use the button on the left. When I want to go to /media, I also use the button on the left. [04:31] :) [04:31] jdong: a user will not have acces rights to those files [04:31] Tonio_: /usr/share/doc? [04:31] I think he does [04:31] or, an open with dialog [04:31] Tonio_: when I want to check /usr/share/locale-langpack or k-d-s for some artwork I open the / dir and descend through the structure [04:31] jdong: write access ? :) [04:31] selecting /usr/bin/whatever [04:31] Tonio_: why does it have to be write access? [04:32] mhb: that's not the Joe user case [04:32] you are a power user [04:32] simply choose to display those files [04:32] another solution is to type the folder address in the address bar [04:32] works too [04:32] it doesn't change anything for the poweruser [04:32] wow, this feels like a GNOME-ish discussion.... only there's actually a way around the stupidity filter [04:32] but makes the system view easy for my mother [04:33] Tonio_: my sister (a 10 year old) never went beyond the home dir [04:33] jdong: the difference with gnome is that we have the address bar activated out the the box hehe :) [04:33] Tonio_: and she's using Kubuntu from Dapper [04:33] :) [04:33] mhb: yes, but the systems looks complicated if you display everything [04:33] if you are a poweruser, you : [04:33] my neighbor is a complete newcomer from linux and he had no issues with seeing the entire /.... [04:33] - generally use the shell [04:33] - can show the hidden folders [04:33] other than he did ask questions about how it worked, from a curiousity standpoint [04:34] - can type the folder url in the address bar [04:45] and concerning the gnome based discussion [04:45] Tonio_: if I remember correctly hiding functionality just for the sake of hiding was never the KDE style of work [04:45] my feeling is that gnome can good ideas sometimes, no reason to ignore them "because that's a gnome point of view" [04:45] Tonio_: no, but I chose KDE for it's features [04:45] mhb: and ? [04:45] mhb: okay so we should remove the full kds package then [04:45] the way I configured konqueror wasn't the kde style of work [04:45] kde style of work is to add the maximum options [04:45] Tonio_: no,that's not my point [04:45] 3 buttons bar in konqueror [04:45] mhb: the idea is to use / as a replacement for system:/ [04:45] Riddell: why? [04:45] mhb: because ioslaves are creating LOTS of issues [04:45] mhb: for example with gtk applications [04:45] Riddell: I wouldn't complain about that if it didn't block my style of working with KDE [04:45] mhb: so show hidden files [04:45] exactly... I don't understand the problem... [04:45] will deleting /.hidden also rever to the normal setting?or his showing hidden files the only way to work around it? [04:45] mhb: or type the url in the address bar.... [04:45] Jucato: it will but any kds update will reinstall the file [04:45] ah [04:45] but I don't understand people that complain "I cannor do the way I want" [04:45] Riddell: so we want to pretend that we have no unix structure at all? [04:45] as long as you can display the hidden files, where is the issue ? [04:45] it's an inconvenience? [04:45] Riddell: I spent quite a lot of time translating descriptions of the unix structure in the Kubuntu desktop guide [04:45] mhb: no we want to make the system view easy [04:45] but visible for those who want too [04:45] mhb: look at OSX for example [04:45] sure, let's hide all new apps installed by default, too [04:45] expert users can find them via the command line [04:45] jdong: that's what we do for kcontrol hehe :) [04:45] lol [04:45] jdong: seriously, who as a standard user minds the system view ? [04:45] you all used windows in the past, who learned the C:\windows structure ? [04:45] who using OSX minds the folder structure ? [04:45] Tonio_: I was frustrated every time I opened that [04:45] only powerusers do [04:45] and powerusers can find the files they want very easilly [04:45] Tonio_: a 14 year old gamer is no power user :o) [04:45] there are 3 ways to do [04:45] mhb: my girlfriend is frustated when she browse the system [04:45] too complicated for her [04:45] confusing and of course useless [04:45] Tonio_: my sister never mentioned that [04:45] as long as we are not removing the possibility to do as before, were is the issue ? [04:45] Tonio_: maybe your girlfriend is a Windows power user but no Unix power user [04:45] oh yeah? well my relatives are cooler than both of yours :) [04:45] mhb: ask her [04:45] compare the 2 views and ask her which one is the best in her opinion [04:45] no doubt at her response [04:45] Tonio_: no doubt, she doesn't care :o) [04:45] well, the maximize button confuses the hell out of my grandma [04:45] Tonio_: but that's another story [04:45] should that be hidden too? [04:45] mhb: and don't forget you can always do as you want [04:45] same with the window menu [04:45] just display hidden files [04:45] and the right click button [04:45] jdong: just press F8 and you see everything [04:45] Tonio_: I don't want to see hidden files in my home dir but I'd like to see hidden files in "/" [04:45] Lure: F8 ? that's for the embeded console :) [04:46] Lure: that's not the point. Why do I have to press an extra button just because Tonio_'s girlfriend complains a lot? :D [04:46] mhb: okay make your own distro then, or remove kds... [04:46] mhb: there are dozens of distros that do the way you want [04:46] whoo! jdongbuntu time! [04:46] we cannot feet everyone way to work [04:46] actually, that's probably Kjdongkbuntu :) [04:46] I agree with jdong in this problem [04:46] that's impossible, so we have to choose the best compromise [04:46] aka brokenbuntu? :P [04:46] jdong: as power user you can decide to make empty /.hidden and /media/.hidden [04:47] jdong: I didn't even gave my opinion [04:47] Lure: already have [04:47] that's not my choice (for once) [04:47] jdong: so, what is the problem? [04:47] Tonio_: we must take an another point of view in consideration [04:47] it's annoying to have to do that every time I do an install [04:47] jdong: make your own settings package then........ [04:47] Tonio_: still a large number of Kubuntu users are power users, even if we want to change that [04:47] Tonio_: is /.hidden treated as config file (it should be) or is always overwritten? [04:47] fork kds for your needs....... [04:48] jdong: they are config files, you can preserve their emptyness in /etc [04:48] Lure: overwritten, as it is not in /etc [04:48] Tonio_: I think in the future we need to provide a kds package that's the equivalent of default KDE [04:48] Riddell: are they ? [04:48] Tonio_: and those power users actually recommend the distribution [04:48] especially if this simplification thing goes any further [04:48] Tonio_: to the non-power ones [04:48] jdong: i.e. uninstalling k-d-s [04:48] Riddell: ah yes, it has been changed, you're right, with simlinks in folders [04:48] Tonio_: sure .hidden -> /etc/kubuntu-default-settings/hidden-root [04:48] Riddell: oh, does that really undo everything? [04:49] jdong: most things [04:49] Riddell: yes I remember, that changed a month ago [04:49] Tonio_: but most power users (my own experience) won't recommend a distribution for novices, but distribution they use [04:49] mhb: that's exactly why linux is only 1% of the market [04:49] Tonio_: the trend is changing [04:49] because those gentoo users are suggesting gentoo to their mother [04:50] a poweruser based distro is for and only for powerusers [04:50] I don't even suggest kubuntu for a novice, but ubuntu..... [04:50] Tonio_: yes, and your "you should change distribution" argument is really a poison for Kubuntu spreading [04:50] Tonio_: that's a bug then [04:50] kubuntu needs simplification at the moment, to reach the same usability level as ubuntu as for novices [04:50] Tonio_: I don't mean you no offence [04:51] Riddell: I hope fiesty will be ready, but I don't consider it ready for grandmothers currently ;) [04:51] I recommend Kubuntu because far more people are able to run KDE [04:51] that's why I'm currently focussing on konqueror, media simplication etc... [04:51] and they actually like it [04:52] mhb: well I recommend kubuntu for people that have a few knowledge in informatics (only the bases) [04:52] but for a total novice, I think for example ubuntu or mandriva are more adapted (at the moment at least) [04:52] that's why I want to improve kubuntu [04:52] if everything was perfect in my opinion, I wouldn't contribute ;) [04:52] Tonio_: no, of course [04:53] mhb: but for the same reasons, people will complain because I'm patching kaffeine to remove audio features [04:53] Tonio_: but if I am working on a configuration tool, for example (and I will be real soon), I'll try to make it so that it would be possible to set as many options as possible [04:53] kaudiocreator users will complain because we will probably remove it to favor k3b etc......; [04:53] Tonio_: while still maintaining usability [04:54] mhb: which is impossible to do [04:54] Tonio_: for example my sister doesn't know what /home means. She can't speak English yet. That's why she doesn't care whether to have / with all or just with reduced options [04:54] usabillity + simplicity <> maximu functionalities [04:54] that's a base [04:55] mhb: and yes I agree the folders like 'desktop' should be translated [04:55] Tonio_: since I know a lot of docs (translated them) I know that's the goal KDE's trying to achieve [04:55] that's a good idea [04:55] [04:55] mhb: if kde was succeding in this, kds package wouldn't exist [04:55] kde is failing making something accessible to novices, I'm sorry but that's my opinion [04:56] but they are making a fatastic desktop for powerusers [04:56] our goal is to make is accessible to novices [04:56] Tonio_: in my opinion (there were some stats about that at least here in Czech Rep.) more people actually use KDE than GNOME ... even novices [04:57] but if that reduces functionnalities for some powerusers, they are free to use a poweruser based distro, like debian or gentoo [04:57] or slackware [04:57] Tonio_: we shouldn't give up KDE goals, though [04:57] Tonio_: and KDE goals exist [04:57] yes, lots of novices are using kde [04:57] that doesn't mean kde is the perfect choice for novices [04:57] mych more people are using osx or widows :) that's the point [04:58] mhb: yes and I hope kde4 will succeed in that goal [04:58] I just think the out of the box kde 3 doesn't [04:58] Tonio_: AFAIK C:\Windows or Documents and Settings are visible in both Vista and XP [04:58] Tonio_: the folders in the C:\ directory are visible [04:58] mhb: all the system related files and folders are hidden [04:58] mhb: well, windows hides stuff like Program files or even System by default, but there is a message telling you that, which i feel we lack [04:59] even in "documents and settings" [04:59] Riddell: I have proposed my specs for uds-mtv, but they do not show on https://features.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/ - how to get them accepted for uds? [04:59] mhb: you will not confuse me on windows hehe :) windows is my job ;) [04:59] abattoir: it already does hide the dirs? [04:59] mhb: is C:\boot.ini displayed by default ? [04:59] Tonio_: I probably won't [05:00] Tonio_: I don't use them :o) I just say what I remember [05:00] what "about documents and settings/local settings" [05:00] all system related files are hidden [05:00] Lure: 'click "Propose for meeting agenda"' [05:00] Tonio_: not all / dirs are system [05:00] mhb: yup, on a default installation C:\Program Files and C:\System (sorry, don't remember the paths correctly anymore) are hidden, but as i said, there is a message which clearly indicaates that, so people don't get confused [05:00] Lure: and they'll get reviewed for acceptance [05:00] powerusers can display them (I do) but my syster doesn't need this [05:00] Riddell: I did, so I just need to wait for approval? [05:00] mhb: /etc files are /usr files are too in my opinion [05:00] Lure: yes [05:01] mhb: /home files are not [05:01] Tonio_: do you do community support for (K)ubuntu sometimes? [05:02] mhb: of course [05:02] Tonio_: let's say a user has a problem and you need to see the logs [05:02] Tonio_: did you propose kubuntu multimedia spec? [05:02] mhb: /usr/share/docs files are not designed to be browsed with konqueror "by the lambda" [05:02] Lure: will do today [05:03] mhb: but to be used with "help" menus and khelpcenter [05:03] Tonio_: ok, please subscribe me ;-) [05:03] Tonio_: you say to him "send me the /var/log/xorg.log file" and he'll probably say he doesn't have a /var/ directory [05:03] mhb: if I need to see the logs, I will send the path to the user and say him to paste the path in the addres bar [05:03] no problem :) [05:03] ksystemlog [05:03] Riddell: also yes [05:04] Riddell: yes, in KDE ... I don't know the counterpart in Ubuntu or Xubuntu, though [05:04] or Show Hidden Files as we've said lots already [05:04] mhb: but if I need the files, it is very easy to say him how to do [05:04] "paste /var/log/ in the address bar and send me xorg.conf" [05:04] Riddell: if I'll say that to every one of them we'll all end up with showing hidden files [05:04] Riddell: who can get me rights to modify https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firefox-kde-support [05:04] mhb: where is the issue ? [05:04] Riddell: I would like to add wiki page [05:05]