[12:44] <Hobbsee> morning all
[12:49] <ryanakca> hey Hobbsee
[12:50] <toma> hey Hobbsee
[12:51] <ryanakca> gnomefreak: no clue, is kdevelop3 looking for kdevelop3-data or kdevelop-data? and is kdevelop-data a meta package for kdevelop3-data? (kindof like python represents the current version of python, gcc represents the current version of gcc, etc)
[12:51] <Hobbsee> :)
[12:52] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: i'd guess kdevelop-data, based on that
[12:52] <gnomefreak> kdevelop3 brought in kdevelop kdevelop-data kdevelop3
[12:52] <gnomefreak> lil over lap?
[12:53] <gnomefreak> brb have to put pump back in
[12:54] <ryanakca> think it'll work because kdevelop-data = 4:3.3.4-1ubuntu2
[12:55] <ryanakca> Get:4 http://ca.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/universe kdevelop3 4:3.3.2+dummy1 [9568B] 
[12:56] <ryanakca> Get:2 http://ca.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/universe kdevelop 4:3.3.4-1ubuntu2 [8084kB] 
[12:56] <ryanakca> that mean that they're the same? (I'm wondering about +dummy1...) different file sizes, mind you...
[12:59] <gnomefreak> Description: Dummy package for transition to kdevelop The package kdevelop3 has been renamed to kdevelop.
[01:00] <gnomefreak> i guess its just a "meta package"
[01:01] <ryanakca> ah, kk
[01:05] <ryanakca> down to 4.6KB/s... I guess my teacher will have to wait a day or two :) either that or be patient till the 26th
[01:11] <claydoh> mine were slow too, the Ubuntu rc was faster,had more peers
[03:25] <jjesse_> good evening :)
[03:44] <freeflying> morning all
[04:43] <jjesse_> hello freeflying
[04:43] <freeflying> jjesse_: hey :)
[04:51] <ltmon> Hi all, I'm currently getting a really crash-prone kded in Edgy (upgraded from Dapper).  I can't really find any reliable way to crash it, but suffice to say it happens several times a day.  I was hoping someone could give me a quick rundown on how to get a stack trace of the crash.  I have already installed the kdebase-dbg and kdelibs-dbg packages, and I can restart the daemon whenever it crashes ... what next?
[05:44] <ltmon> With regards to my last question: I Just figured it out.  It is a buggy version of kdesvn that is packaged for Edgy causing the crash.  See https://launchpad.net/bugs/61494.
[05:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 61494 in kdesvn "Wrong desktop file entry for subversion" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[08:35] <Lure> Riddell: I had a strange kded hang when kmail using kwalletmanager wanted to retreive the mail after the boot - kded CPU went to 100% and I could only kill kded with -9
[08:36] <Lure> Riddell: then I started from command line and got some errors like this http://paste.tonio.homelinux.org/33
[08:37] <Lure> Riddell: this opencrypto errors do not look nice and I know that crypto was changed recently - do we need to rebuild something with new opencrypto?
[11:36] <seaLne> i can't reproduce Bug #65455 kdemultimedia installs fine for me
[11:36] <seaLne> Bug #65455
[11:37] <Jucato> seaLne: the bots are gone...
[11:37] <seaLne> yeah just noticed
[11:37] <seaLne> [UNMETDEPS]  kdemultimedia has unmet dependencies
[11:39] <seaLne> i'll mark as fixed
[12:19] <Tonio_> ih
[12:19] <Tonio_> hi
[12:21] <Jucato> hi Tonio_
[12:24] <Jucato> excuse me Tonio_, someone was asking about a focus bug in KDE 3.5.5. was it fixed?
[12:24] <Tonio_> Jucato: dunno about this bug....
[12:25] <Tonio_> any bug id ?
[12:25] <Jucato> hm ok I'll look for it. he asked in #kde
[12:25] <Tonio_> Jucato: okay
[12:41] <Jucato> Tl 
[12:41] <Jucato> bug 135250
[12:41] <Jucato> kde bug 135250
[12:41] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 135250 in general "desktop unusable due to flickering of windows if not "focus follows click"" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135250
[12:41] <Jucato> Tonio_: this one...
[12:42] <Tonio_> Jucato: having a look
[12:42] <Jucato> great. thanks :)
[12:43] <Tonio_> Jucato: to late to upload a patch anyway, but we could ship an update after the release is out
[12:43] <Jucato> ah. guess it was too late after all :)
[12:44] <Tonio_> okay the patch is given....
[12:44] <Tonio_> Jucato: I'll prepare packages locally and discuss with Riddell and mdz to upload as an update once edgy is out
[12:45] <Tonio_> Jucato: I also have another patch to eventually upload too
[12:45] <Jucato> ah ok. that'd be great. so the patch would be out only after Edgy's released
[12:45] <Tonio_> yes, unfortunately
[12:46] <Jucato> well, if I had known it sooner, I it could have probably made it...
[12:47] <Tonio_> Jucato: could you confirm http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135999
[12:47] <Ubugtu> KDE bug 135999 in general "Konqueror segfault with audiocd:/" [Crash,Unconfirmed]  
[12:47] <Tonio_> ?
[12:47] <Jucato> er... not on Linux right now...
[12:47] <Jucato> sorry Tonio_ :(
[12:49] <Tonio_> Jucato: no pb ;)
[12:49] <Tonio_> no uds without this :)
[12:49] <Jucato> oooh coolness :)
[12:50] <Tonio_> Jucato: bah 60 just because of USA paranoia :)
[12:50] <Tonio_> not that cool in my opinion hehe :)
[12:50] <Jucato> err... now that you mention it... :P
[12:51] <Tonio_> hehe
[12:52] <Jucato> I wish the paranoia would disappear before the January next year. some relatives of mine from USA are planning to visit us here :)
[12:55] <ajmitch> since I got the passport renewed so I could travel to UBZ in montreal :)
[12:56] <imbrandon> heh
[12:56] <imbrandon> i'm just glad i dont have to have one right now
[01:07] <Lure> Riddell: interesting: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=47593
[01:07] <Riddell> Lure: presumably not your patch?
[01:08] <Lure> Riddell: no - they just do system("pmi action hibernate") - no detection what is supported and similar. I added comment with link to my patch
[01:08] <Riddell> yeah, it's very simplistic that patch
[01:08] <Lure> Riddell: there is also comment that SuSE has something similar ;-)
[01:12] <Lure> Riddell: how do we stand with your pile of uploads for the release - will they get accepted?
[01:15] <Riddell> Lure: kdelibs and k-d-s just got in, just katapult to go I think
[01:17] <Lure> Riddell: and guidance-powermanager?
[01:18] <Lure> Riddell: accepted:
[01:18] <Lure> [13:17]  <tfheen> Kamion: kdelibs and kde-guidance, yes, please.
[01:19] <Riddell> yep
[01:20] <Riddell> k-d-s still to be approved
[01:20] <imbrandon> moins Lure & Riddell 
[01:21] <fritsch> Sorry for disturbing in this "hot period" of working, but ist there a chance, that the kde-guidance-powermanager will be able to "get" XF86Standby keycodes, which are correctly mapped already?
[01:22] <Riddell> fritsch: we patch those in kdebase as I recall, Lure can confirm
[01:22] <Riddell> pykde doesn't work with global keyboard accelarators alas
[01:23] <Lure> fritsch: not for edgy - I wanted to do something in ksmserver, but we were already in RC freeze
[01:23] <Riddell> ah, yes
[01:23] <fritsch> Lure: oki, thx very much
[01:23] <Lure> you could use ksticky keys and dcop interfaces of power-manager - I might write a small howto for this
[01:24] <fritsch> Lure: this would be even nicer :-)  thank you! and have fun and get some calm
[01:24] <fritsch> stress is poison
[01:25] <Lure> fritsch: I have stress at work, kubuntu is to calm down ;-)
[01:27] <Riddell> yay, katapult, qts and k-d-s all accepted
[01:27] <Riddell> so we're sorted for edgy!  nothing can go wrong now!
[01:27] <fritsch> Riddell: copied and pasted "this.13:27" for my blog
[01:28] <fritsch> have fun altogether and thx for your great work!
[01:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: great news ;)
[01:36] <Tonio_> haha, got it !
[01:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: I have a fix for THE oldest kubuntu bug
[01:37] <Riddell> mm?
[01:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: the 'incomplete konqueror menus" bug
[01:37] <Tonio_> I found a patch on the net
[01:38] <Tonio_> I tested here widelly, and it works like a charm
[01:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: bug 41594  
[01:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 41594 in kubuntu-default-settings "dapper: konqueror (web) won't always show all menu entries" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41594
[01:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: here is the patch : http://paste.tonio.homelinux.org/34
[01:40] <Tonio_> I also tested the "merged stop and reload buttons"
[01:40] <Tonio_> works nicelly but I think it causes konq crashes sometimes
[01:40] <Tonio_> I have to investigate
[01:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: I put all the stuff on my repo, we'll test during the uds
[01:41] <Tonio_> I really would like to see that bug closed...
[01:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: to reproduce the bug :http://light.pcinpact.com/actu/news/32232-iPod-cinq-ans.htm?ca=&vc=1&p=2&#c879782
[01:45] <Tonio_> click on "plus beaux" link
[01:46] <Tonio_> it loads a new window, with incomplete "view" menu
[01:46] <Tonio_> konqueror ignores kds settings
[01:46] <Tonio_> with the patch, it works
[01:53] <Riddell> nifty
[02:11] <Lure> Riddell: this is nice fix: http://commit-digest.org/issues/2006-10-22/moreinfo/585670/
[02:13] <imbrandon> Lure, +1 i seem to be bitten by that bug quite a bit i think
[02:13] <Lure> imbrandon: me too - I just got used to it (so I did not notice it even) :-(
[02:15] <imbrandon> Riddell, that looks like a fairly trivial change that closes a TON of bugs, think i coudl get that in now ?
[02:15] <Lure> imbrandon: we should find LP bugs that are cause by this...
[02:16] <imbrandon> s/ProgressItem *mMailCheckProgressItem;/QGuardedPtr<ProgressItem> mMailCheckProgressItem;/ is the change 
[02:16] <Riddell> it would need testing, then can go in edgy-updates
[02:16] <imbrandon> Riddell, kk
[02:17] <imbrandon> since i seem to be bitten by that bug i'll build it and put it up for Lure and me to test , sound ok Lure ?
[02:17] <imbrandon> then we can go from there
[02:17] <Lure> imbrandon: will do
[02:17] <imbrandon> kk i'll make a patch and build it now
[02:17] <imbrandon> please tell me your on i386
[02:17] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:18] <Lure> i386
[02:18] <imbrandon> kk
[02:40] <imbrandon> Lure, well that pacth dosent seem to be the total fix
[02:41] <imbrandon> becouse its already in edgy
[02:41] <imbrandon> ( kde 3.5.5 )
[02:41] <Lure> :-(
[02:41] <Lure> It seems we need to report 3.5.5 crashes to b.k.o...
[02:41] <imbrandon> yea
[03:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: do you have rights to approve kubuntu related specs or not ?
[03:37] <Riddell> Tonio_: no
[03:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay, I'll be writing the 2 other specs we want for the uds (samba integration and voip solution) and email mdz
[03:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: are you okay to discuss this during the uds ?
[03:41] <Riddell> Tonio_: you don't need to e-mail mdz, he'll get notification of them all
[03:41] <Riddell> Tonio_: I am yes
[03:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes but he asked for email concerning the specs to discuss at uds
[03:42] <Riddell> oh, I didn't see that
[03:49] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:50] <mhb> hi all
[03:51] <Jucato> hi bddebian, hi mhb :)
[03:51] <bddebian> Hello mhb, Jucato
[03:51] <Lure> imbrandon: should we push this for uds-mtv: https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firefox-kde-support
[03:57] <Tonio_> Lure: in my opinion we should target konqueror, really
[03:58] <Lure> Tonio_: may firefox users (like me) are not satisfied with suboptimal behaviour
[03:59] <Lure> Tonio_: I try to switch to konqueror every couple of months, but I cannot
[03:59] <Lure> :-(
[03:59] <Lure> And firefox is widely used browser and deserves better
[03:59] <Tonio_> Lure: the problem is that the patches to integrate konqueror to kde are nasty hacks
[04:02] <mhb> Tonio_: firefox, you mean
[04:03] <Tonio_> mhb: yes :) sorry
[04:07] <mhb> I still don't get the half feature half bug 67314
[04:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 67314 in kubuntu-default-settings "[edgy]  Can't show root (/) in gtk file chooser after update to edgy" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67314
[04:07] <mhb> why is it good that it can't show root?
[04:09] <jdong> mhb: heh, I guess it's a side-effect that it affects GNOME in addition to KDE
[04:10] <mhb> why?
[04:11] <mhb> I can name a milion of times when I need to open /usr/ and I'm accustomed to going to "/" and then clicking my way through
[04:11] <mhb> million times, sorry
[04:16] <jdong> mhb: the stupid user paradigm, I guess... users are too stupid to know that anything other than /home and /media exist :P
[04:16] <jdong> you can tell I'm not happy about it either
[04:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: the mail's subject is "UDS Mountain View: Call for Topics", sent on 10/14
[04:25] <Riddell> Tonio_: which says to 'click "Propose for meeting agenda"' not to e-mail matt
[04:27] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes, my memory sometimes segfault :)
[04:27] <Tonio_> I'll re-read it to do it correctly
[04:28] <mhb> who made the decision of hiding all dirs except /media and /home in / ?
[04:29] <Tonio_> mhb: was a common decision and _Sime implemented this
[04:29] <mhb> hm...
[04:29] <Tonio_> or maybe _Sime decided and we agreed :)
[04:29] <Tonio_> mhb: why ?
[04:29] <mhb> it seems illogical to me
[04:30] <Tonio_> mhb: why ?
[04:30] <jdong> Tonio_: because for a user to be browsing through the filesystem, he already has a purpose set out
[04:31] <jdong> if he just wanted /home and /media, there's buttons for those on the shortcut pane thingie
[04:31] <mhb> Tonio_: I know I'm not the most typical user in the world but I take me a lot as example. When I want to go to my home dir I use the button on the left. When I want to go to /media, I also use the button on the left.
[04:31] <jdong> :)
[04:31] <Tonio_> jdong: a user will not have acces rights to those files
[04:31] <jdong> Tonio_: /usr/share/doc?
[04:31] <jdong> I think he does
[04:31] <jdong> or, an open with dialog
[04:31] <mhb> Tonio_: when I want to check /usr/share/locale-langpack or k-d-s for some artwork I open the / dir and descend through the structure
[04:31] <Tonio_> jdong: write access ? :)
[04:31] <jdong> selecting /usr/bin/whatever
[04:31] <jdong> Tonio_: why does it have to be write access?
[04:32] <Tonio_> mhb: that's not the Joe user case
[04:32] <Tonio_> you are a power user
[04:32] <Tonio_> simply choose to display those files
[04:32] <Tonio_> another solution is to type the folder address in the address bar
[04:32] <Tonio_> works too
[04:32] <Tonio_> it doesn't change anything for the poweruser
[04:32] <jdong> wow, this feels like a GNOME-ish discussion.... only there's actually a way around the stupidity filter
[04:32] <Tonio_> but makes the system view easy for my mother
[04:33] <mhb> Tonio_: my sister (a 10 year old) never went beyond the home dir
[04:33] <Tonio_> jdong: the difference with gnome is that we have the address bar activated out the the box hehe :)
[04:33] <mhb> Tonio_: and she's using Kubuntu from Dapper
[04:33] <jdong> :)
[04:33] <Tonio_> mhb: yes, but the systems looks complicated if you display everything
[04:33] <Tonio_> if you are a poweruser, you :
[04:33] <jdong> my neighbor is a complete newcomer from linux and he had no issues with seeing the entire /....
[04:33] <Tonio_> - generally use the shell
[04:33] <Tonio_> - can show the hidden folders
[04:33] <jdong> other than he did ask questions about how it worked, from a curiousity standpoint
[04:34] <Tonio_> - can type the folder url in the address bar
[04:45] <Tonio_> and concerning the gnome based discussion
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: if I remember correctly hiding functionality just for the sake of hiding was never the KDE style of work
[04:45] <Tonio_> my feeling is that gnome can good ideas sometimes, no reason to ignore them "because that's a gnome point of view"
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: no, but I chose KDE for it's features
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: and ?
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: okay so we should remove the full kds package then
[04:45] <Tonio_> the way I configured konqueror wasn't the kde style of work
[04:45] <Tonio_> kde style of work is to add the maximum options
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: no,that's not my point
[04:45] <Tonio_> 3 buttons bar in konqueror
[04:45] <Riddell> mhb: the idea is to use / as a replacement for system:/
[04:45] <mhb> Riddell: why?
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: because ioslaves are creating LOTS of issues
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: for example with gtk applications
[04:45] <mhb> Riddell: I wouldn't complain about that if it didn't block my style of working with KDE
[04:45] <Riddell> mhb: so show hidden files
[04:45] <Tonio_> exactly... I don't understand the problem...
[04:45] <Jucato> will deleting /.hidden also rever to the normal setting?or his showing hidden files the only way to work around it?
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: or type the url in the address bar....
[04:45] <Tonio_> Jucato: it will but any kds update will reinstall the file
[04:45] <Jucato> ah
[04:45] <Tonio_> but I don't understand people that complain "I cannor do the way I want"
[04:45] <mhb> Riddell: so we want to pretend that we have no unix structure at all?
[04:45] <Tonio_> as long as you can display the hidden files, where is the issue ?
[04:45] <jdong> it's an inconvenience?
[04:45] <mhb> Riddell: I spent quite a lot of time translating descriptions of the unix structure in the Kubuntu desktop guide
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: no we want to make the system view easy
[04:45] <Tonio_> but visible for those who want too
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: look at OSX for example
[04:45] <jdong> sure, let's hide all new apps installed by default, too
[04:45] <jdong> expert users can find them via the command line
[04:45] <Tonio_> jdong: that's what we do for kcontrol hehe :)
[04:45] <jdong> lol
[04:45] <Tonio_> jdong: seriously, who as a standard user minds the system view ?
[04:45] <Tonio_> you all used windows in the past, who learned the C:\windows structure ?
[04:45] <Tonio_> who using OSX minds the folder structure ?
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: I was frustrated every time I opened that
[04:45] <Tonio_> only powerusers do
[04:45] <Tonio_> and powerusers can find the files they want very easilly
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: a 14 year old gamer is no power user :o)
[04:45] <Tonio_> there are 3 ways to do
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: my girlfriend is frustated when she browse the system
[04:45] <Tonio_> too complicated for her
[04:45] <Tonio_> confusing and of course useless
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: my sister never mentioned that
[04:45] <Tonio_> as long as we are not removing the possibility to do as before, were is the issue ?
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: maybe your girlfriend is a Windows power user but no Unix power user
[04:45] <jdong> oh yeah? well my relatives are cooler than both of yours :)
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: ask her
[04:45] <Tonio_> compare the 2 views and ask her which one is the best in her opinion
[04:45] <Tonio_> no doubt at her response
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: no doubt, she doesn't care :o)
[04:45] <jdong> well, the maximize button confuses the hell out of my grandma
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: but that's another story
[04:45] <jdong> should that be hidden too?
[04:45] <Tonio_> mhb: and don't forget you can always do as you want
[04:45] <jdong> same with the window menu
[04:45] <Tonio_> just display hidden files
[04:45] <jdong> and the right click button
[04:45] <Lure> jdong: just press F8 and you see everything
[04:45] <mhb> Tonio_: I don't want to see hidden files in my home dir but I'd like to see hidden files in "/"
[04:45] <Tonio_> Lure: F8 ? that's for the embeded console :)
[04:46] <jdong> Lure: that's not the point. Why do I have to press an extra button just because Tonio_'s girlfriend complains a lot? :D
[04:46] <Tonio_> mhb: okay make your own distro then, or remove kds...
[04:46] <Tonio_> mhb: there are dozens of distros that do the way you want
[04:46] <jdong> whoo! jdongbuntu time!
[04:46] <Tonio_> we cannot feet everyone way to work
[04:46] <jdong> actually, that's probably Kjdongkbuntu :)
[04:46] <mhb> I agree with jdong in this problem
[04:46] <Tonio_> that's impossible, so we have to choose the best compromise
[04:46] <Jucato> aka brokenbuntu? :P
[04:46] <Lure> jdong: as power user you can decide to make empty /.hidden and /media/.hidden
[04:47] <Tonio_> jdong: I didn't even gave my opinion
[04:47] <jdong> Lure: already have
[04:47] <Tonio_> that's not my choice (for once)
[04:47] <Lure> jdong: so, what is the problem?
[04:47] <mhb> Tonio_: we must take an another point of view in consideration
[04:47] <jdong> it's annoying to have to do that every time I do an install
[04:47] <Tonio_> jdong: make your own settings package then........
[04:47] <mhb> Tonio_: still a large number of Kubuntu users are power users, even if we want to change that
[04:47] <Lure> Tonio_: is /.hidden treated as config file (it should be) or is always overwritten?
[04:47] <Tonio_> fork kds for your needs.......
[04:48] <Riddell> jdong: they are config files, you can preserve their emptyness in /etc
[04:48] <Tonio_> Lure: overwritten, as it is not in /etc
[04:48] <jdong> Tonio_: I think in the future we need to provide a kds package that's the equivalent of default KDE
[04:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: are they ?
[04:48] <mhb> Tonio_: and those power users actually recommend the distribution
[04:48] <jdong> especially if this simplification thing goes any further
[04:48] <mhb> Tonio_: to the non-power ones
[04:48] <Riddell> jdong: i.e. uninstalling k-d-s
[04:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah yes, it has been changed, you're right, with simlinks in folders
[04:48] <Riddell> Tonio_: sure .hidden -> /etc/kubuntu-default-settings/hidden-root
[04:48] <jdong> Riddell: oh, does that really undo everything?
[04:49] <Riddell> jdong: most things
[04:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: yes I remember, that changed a month ago
[04:49] <mhb> Tonio_: but most power users (my own experience) won't recommend a distribution for novices, but distribution they use
[04:49] <Tonio_> mhb: that's exactly why linux is only 1% of the market
[04:49] <mhb> Tonio_: the trend is changing
[04:49] <Tonio_> because those gentoo users are suggesting gentoo to their mother
[04:50] <Tonio_> a poweruser based distro is for and only for powerusers
[04:50] <Tonio_> I don't even suggest kubuntu for a novice, but ubuntu.....
[04:50] <mhb> Tonio_: yes, and your "you should change distribution" argument is really a poison for Kubuntu spreading
[04:50] <Riddell> Tonio_: that's a bug then
[04:50] <Tonio_> kubuntu needs simplification at the moment, to reach the same usability level as ubuntu as for novices
[04:50] <mhb> Tonio_: I don't mean you no offence
[04:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: I hope fiesty will be ready, but I don't consider it ready for grandmothers currently ;)
[04:51] <mhb> I recommend Kubuntu because far more people are able to run KDE
[04:51] <Tonio_> that's why I'm currently focussing on konqueror, media simplication etc...
[04:51] <mhb> and they actually like it
[04:52] <Tonio_> mhb: well I recommend kubuntu for people that have a few knowledge in informatics (only the bases)
[04:52] <Tonio_> but for a total novice, I think for example ubuntu or mandriva are more adapted (at the moment at least)
[04:52] <Tonio_> that's why I want to improve kubuntu
[04:52] <Tonio_> if everything was perfect in my opinion, I wouldn't contribute ;)
[04:52] <mhb> Tonio_: no, of course
[04:53] <Tonio_> mhb: but for the same reasons, people will complain because I'm patching kaffeine to remove audio features
[04:53] <mhb> Tonio_: but if I am working on a configuration tool, for example (and I will be real soon), I'll try to make it so that it would be possible to set as many options as possible
[04:53] <Tonio_> kaudiocreator users will complain because we will probably remove it to favor k3b etc......;
[04:53] <mhb> Tonio_: while still maintaining usability
[04:54] <Tonio_> mhb: which is impossible to do
[04:54] <mhb> Tonio_: for example my sister doesn't know what /home means. She can't speak English yet. That's why she doesn't care whether to have / with all or just with reduced options
[04:54] <Tonio_> usabillity + simplicity <> maximu functionalities
[04:54] <Tonio_> that's a base
[04:55] <Tonio_> mhb: and yes I agree the folders like 'desktop' should be translated
[04:55] <mhb> Tonio_: since I know a lot of docs (translated them) I know that's the goal KDE's trying to achieve
[04:55] <Tonio_> that's a good idea
[04:55] <abattoir> 
[04:55] <Tonio_> mhb: if kde was succeding in this, kds package wouldn't exist
[04:55] <Tonio_> kde is failing making something accessible to novices, I'm sorry but that's my opinion
[04:56] <Tonio_> but they are making a fatastic desktop for powerusers
[04:56] <Tonio_> our goal is to make is accessible to novices
[04:56] <mhb> Tonio_: in my opinion (there were some stats about that at least here in Czech Rep.) more people actually use KDE than GNOME ... even novices
[04:57] <Tonio_> but if that reduces functionnalities for some powerusers, they are free to use a poweruser based distro, like debian or gentoo
[04:57] <Tonio_> or slackware
[04:57] <mhb> Tonio_: we shouldn't give up KDE goals, though
[04:57] <mhb> Tonio_: and KDE goals exist
[04:57] <Tonio_> yes, lots of novices are using kde
[04:57] <Tonio_> that doesn't mean kde is the perfect choice for novices
[04:57] <Tonio_> mych more people are using osx or widows :) that's the point
[04:58] <Tonio_> mhb: yes and I hope kde4 will succeed in that goal
[04:58] <Tonio_> I just think the out of the box kde 3 doesn't
[04:58] <mhb> Tonio_: AFAIK C:\Windows or Documents and Settings are visible in both Vista and XP
[04:58] <mhb> Tonio_: the folders in the C:\ directory are visible
[04:58] <Tonio_> mhb: all the system related files and folders are hidden
[04:58] <abattoir> mhb: well, windows hides stuff like Program files or even System by default, but there is a message telling you that, which i feel we lack
[04:59] <Tonio_> even in "documents and settings"
[04:59] <Lure> Riddell: I have proposed my specs for uds-mtv, but they do not show on https://features.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/ - how to get them accepted for uds?
[04:59] <Tonio_> mhb: you will not confuse me on windows hehe :) windows is my job ;)
[04:59] <mhb> abattoir: it already does hide the dirs?
[04:59] <Tonio_> mhb: is C:\boot.ini displayed by default ?
[04:59] <mhb> Tonio_: I probably won't
[05:00] <mhb> Tonio_: I don't use them :o) I just say what I remember
[05:00] <Tonio_> what "about documents and settings/local settings"
[05:00] <Tonio_> all system related files are hidden
[05:00] <Riddell> Lure: 'click "Propose for meeting agenda"'
[05:00] <mhb> Tonio_: not all / dirs are system
[05:00] <abattoir> mhb: yup, on a default installation C:\Program Files and C:\System (sorry, don't remember the paths correctly anymore) are hidden, but as i said, there is a message which clearly indicaates that, so people don't get confused
[05:00] <Riddell> Lure: and they'll get reviewed for acceptance
[05:00] <Tonio_> powerusers can display them (I do) but my syster doesn't need this
[05:00] <Lure> Riddell: I did, so I just need to wait for approval?
[05:00] <Tonio_> mhb: /etc files are /usr files are too in my opinion
[05:00] <Riddell> Lure: yes
[05:01] <Tonio_> mhb: /home files are not
[05:01] <mhb> Tonio_: do you do community support for (K)ubuntu sometimes?
[05:02] <Tonio_> mhb: of course
[05:02] <mhb> Tonio_: let's say a user has a problem and you need to see the logs
[05:02] <Lure> Tonio_: did you propose kubuntu multimedia spec?
[05:02] <Tonio_> mhb: /usr/share/docs files are not designed to be browsed with konqueror "by the lambda"
[05:02] <Tonio_> Lure: will do today
[05:03] <Tonio_> mhb: but to be used with "help" menus and khelpcenter
[05:03] <Lure> Tonio_: ok, please subscribe me ;-)
[05:03] <mhb> Tonio_: you say to him "send me the /var/log/xorg.log file" and he'll probably say he doesn't have a /var/ directory
[05:03] <Tonio_> mhb: if I need to see the logs, I will send the path to the user and say him to paste the path in the addres bar
[05:03] <Tonio_> no problem :)
[05:03] <Riddell> ksystemlog
[05:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: also yes
[05:04] <mhb> Riddell: yes, in KDE ... I don't know the counterpart in Ubuntu or Xubuntu, though
[05:04] <Riddell> or Show Hidden Files as we've said lots already
[05:04] <Tonio_> mhb: but if I need the files, it is very easy to say him how to do
[05:04] <Tonio_> "paste  /var/log/ in the address bar and send me xorg.conf"
[05:04] <mhb> Riddell: if I'll say that to every one of them we'll all end up with showing hidden files
[05:04] <Lure> Riddell: who can get me rights to modify https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firefox-kde-support
[05:04] <Tonio_> mhb: where is the issue ?
[05:04] <Lure> Riddell: I would like to add wiki page
[05:05] <mhb> Tonio_: the issue is clear from my POV: you just disabled a way to browse the system many users, not just me are accustomed to
[05:05] <Riddell> Lure: https://features.launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-10-rmn30
[05:05] <mhb> Tonio_: should I bring every single one novice user of Kubuntu who likes things to stay that way?
[05:05] <Tonio_> mhb: as we did when we removed kcontrol
[05:06] <Tonio_> who complains now ?
[05:06] <Lure> Riddell: so only registrant?
[05:06] <Tonio_> mhb: as I did when I simplified konqueror
[05:06] <Tonio_> who complains now ?
[05:06] <mhb> Tonio_: now WE complain, can't you see?
[05:06] <Tonio_> mhb: I'm talking about not powerusers :)
[05:06] <Riddell> Lure: I know matt can too so there's probably some group that can control these things
[05:06] <mhb> Tonio_: should we break your window before you notice it? :o))
[05:07] <mhb> Tonio_: and stand and scream in the streets? :o)
[05:07] <Lure> Riddell: will mail Robert...
[05:07] <mhb> Tonio_: so you basically say we shouldn't care about what power users say
[05:07] <Tonio_> mhb: let's re-debate this in the meeting them.......; but I know what the average opinion is
[05:07] <Tonio_> mhb: exactly, that's my opinion
[05:07] <mhb> Tonio_: should I bring supporters then?
[05:07] <Tonio_> powerusers are "powerusers"
[05:08] <Tonio_> means that they can find a way to do as they want
[05:08] <Tonio_> my sister cannot
[05:08] <mhb> Tonio_: well that's a dangerous opinion
[05:08] <Tonio_> there are enough powerusers based distros out there
[05:08] <mhb> _dangerous_
[05:08] <Tonio_> if kubuntu isn't adapted anymore, they can switch
[05:08] <Tonio_> but lambda users cannot switch to debian
[05:08] <Tonio_> that's why kubuntu exists
[05:08] <Tonio_> dangerous, maybe, but my opinion, yes
[05:09] <mhb> Tonio_: I'll bring people to the meeting then
[05:09] <mhb> Tonio_: average Joes who like it that way
[05:09] <Tonio_> if we decide to target powerusers, let's stop kubuntu now
[05:09] <Tonio_> debian is perfect for them
[05:09] <Jucato> is it possible to have a sort of "patched" k-d-s available that doesn't have the .hidden settings only?
[05:09] <mhb> Tonio_: you're breaking the motto of kubuntu, can't you see?
[05:09] <Riddell> Jucato: no.  they're config files as I've said
[05:09] <mhb> Tonio_: you're making a distribution _NOT_ for everyone
[05:09] <Jucato> ah
[05:10] <Tonio_> mhb: it still is
[05:10] <Riddell> mhb: that's a bit harsh
[05:10] <Tonio_> you have 3 ways to access your files
[05:10] <mhb> Riddell: sorry
[05:10] <mhb> Tonio_: I apologize for the harsh comment
[05:10] <Tonio_> but before, there was not any way to hide the files for Joe
[05:10] <Tonio_> that's what I call a comprimise
[05:10] <Tonio_> make it simple for most users, but still accessible for powerusers
[05:11] <mhb> but I still think when we do something against the power users, we're breaking the kubuntu motto
[05:11] <Tonio_> mhb: I don't mind :)
[05:11] <Tonio_> we don't do something against powerusers
[05:11] <mhb> Tonio_: it wasn't just me who says it will affect him
[05:11] <Tonio_> but I prefer powerusers to do 2 more clicks if that makes it easier for lambda users
[05:12] <Tonio_> instead of something designed for powerusers without any way for lambda users to change it
[05:12] <Tonio_> that's my definition of compromise
[05:12] <Tonio_> kcontrol is still accessible, but systemsettings is favored
[05:12] <Tonio_> exactly the same problem there
[05:12] <Tonio_> mhb: there are 100 ways to use konqueror
[05:13] <mhb> Tonio_: no, I see a lot more problems arising here
[05:13] <Tonio_> simplification means to favor a way among another one
[05:13] <Tonio_> mhb: and if most people complain that'll be removed
[05:13] <Tonio_> but the purpose of edgy is to try new things
[05:13] <mhb> Tonio_: if you want to do such radical changes, consult with the community first
[05:13] <Tonio_> mhb: I didn't do the change, I just agree with it
[05:13] <mhb> Tonio_: if you want to do such radical changes, you should notify the documentation team and the translation team
[05:13] <Riddell> we did, it was brought up at the meeting and sime blogged about it
[05:13] <Tonio_> and in my opinion, not only the community needs to be consulted
[05:14] <abattoir> mhb: tbh, it has been in edgy for sometime now, it must've been noticed earlier and debted, imho
[05:14] <Tonio_> the community is build with powerusers
[05:14] <Tonio_> Joe user isn't on irc
[05:14] <mhb> Tonio_: Joe power user isn't here
[05:14] <Jucato_> but we do need to have a proper wiki/documentation for this...
[05:14] <Tonio_> we have to consult powerusers, our families etc.......
[05:14] <Tonio_> get the global feeling
[05:14] <Tonio_> I think that was done
[05:15] <mhb> Riddell: one of the most frustrating things in this problem for me personally is that I translated the whole part of kubuntu desktop guide where the root directories are described
[05:15] <mhb> Riddell: but there is no part I've translated about this change
[05:15] <Tonio_> mhb: I can understand that and yes that's an issue
[05:16] <mhb> Riddell: and there's nobody that would apologize to me for doing a futile translation
[05:16] <Tonio_> that's why we should sync better with the documentation team
[05:16] <Tonio_> I totally agree on that point
[05:16] <mhb> Riddell: well not only to me, to the whole Kubuntu translation team or the -doc team
[05:17] <mhb> Tonio_: I can live with the change personally
[05:17] <mhb> Tonio_: but I don't know how it will affect a) KDE fans b) other power users which actually help us make Kubuntu as good as it is
[05:18] <Tonio_> mhb: we'll see :)
[05:18] <mhb> Tonio_: if everyone scream "I'm happy with it!" I'll be a lot calmer
[05:18] <Tonio_> the purpose of edgy is to try new things
[05:18] <Tonio_> and lots of people didn't complain about it
[05:18] <Jucato> if it's any indication, some comments have already come in from the forum (kubuntuforums.net)
[05:18] <robotgeek> i guess the desktop guide is kind of my fault. i had not done much
[05:18] <Tonio_> mhb: for one people complaning, how many agree and don't ay anything ?
[05:19] <Tonio_> hard to know no ?
[05:19] <Tonio_> mhb: a good example : I've merged the view switching buttons
[05:19] <mhb> Tonio_: the same number as the ones that disagree and don't say anything .o)
[05:19] <Tonio_> *lots* of people are complaining 3 buttons are better, to make it easy to switch between the view
[05:19] <Tonio_> the average complains
[05:19] <mhb> that's why we should ask
[05:20] <Tonio_> fiesty will probably be back to 3 buttons mode
[05:20] <Tonio_> I am not a dictator :) that's mark role, not mine :)
[05:20] <Tonio_> so let's get the feeling of those changes and we'll decide for fiesty
[05:21] <Tonio_> but in my opinion, if OSX is such respected for its usability, it is because they have done the same thing
[05:21] <mhb> Tonio_: OK...I'll try to ask the users I usually talk with
[05:21] <Tonio_> and that applies to windows too
[05:21] <Tonio_> mhb: be sure to ask "objectively"
[05:21] <Tonio_> ;)
[05:22] <mhb> Tonio_: count on it :o) "Do you hate the bug as much as I do?" :o))
[05:22] <Tonio_> mhb: just for info, at the very begining I complained too
[05:22] <Tonio_> because I use konqueror the same way than you
[05:22] <Tonio_> I complained here a lot
[05:23] <Tonio_> I changed my mind asking to my mother, sister and girlfriend
[05:24] <mhb> Tonio_: I can live with it as well
[05:24] <Tonio_> mhb: so can I :)
[05:25] <Jucato> will there be a wiki (plain English probably?) for this change? something we could point users to, when they ask?
[05:26] <mhb> Tonio_: the bad thing is that we can't both keep the files hidden (I know how many I have in $home) and root files visible
[05:26] <mhb> Tonio_: that's what I would prefer - but don't change it the power user way, change it the Kubuntu way
[05:27] <mhb> Tonio_: let's say System Settings -> Power User Settings -> Show Root Folder checkbox
[05:27] <mhb> Tonio_: I'd love that
[05:27] <Tonio_> mhb: that's an option
[05:27] <abattoir> mhb: why all the trouble when as Riddell said it's just a config file, a power user would definitely know how to get around it
[05:28] <Tonio_> abattoir: that's my opinion too
[05:28] <mhb> abattoir: I am a power user who likes graphical tools for instance :o)
[05:28] <abattoir> Tonio_: but i do think there should be a message of some sort :P
[05:28] <mhb> abattoir: furthermore the files get hidden again every time I upgrade the system
[05:28] <Jucato> hehe that would be nice, too. :)
[05:28] <abattoir> Tonio_: but i agree it's not quite feasible w/ the current infrastructure
[05:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: the konqueror settings loading patch causes konqueror to segfault sometimes.... but fixes the issue, so I try to clean it.... whould be nice to fix this, really
[05:29] <Tonio_> abattoir: let's wait for kde4 then, and find the best compromise waiting for it
[05:30] <Riddell> mhb: no they don't, they're config files
[05:30] <mhb> Riddell: even when k-d-s upgrades?
[05:30] <Riddell> Tonio_: ervin said he'd be doing something different in KDE 4
[05:30] <Riddell> mhb: yes
[05:30] <mhb> I'd still prefer that to be set up through some graphical tool
[05:31] <Tonio_> mhb: yeah I was wrong concerning this, they are now config files....
[05:31] <mhb> Tonio_: no problem
[05:32] <Jucato> Tonio_: meaning if you modify or remove the config file, updating kds won't bring it back?
[05:32] <mhb> but I think it should be possible to revert such changes
[05:33] <Riddell> Jucato: correct
[05:33] <mhb> because it's a bit "drastic change" for me
[05:33] <imbrandon> sorry i got in late on the conversation but --> [09:48]  <mhb> Tonio_: but most power users (my own experience) won't recommend a distribution for novices, but distribution they use <--- that is 100000% wrong, i cant count the number of times i have heard someone in my lug say they use {gentoo,debian} but hand out ubuntu cd's to friends and family
[05:33] <Jucato> Riddell: kool. thanks :)
[05:33] <mhb> imbrandon: experience differs .o)
[05:34] <Tonio_> imbrandon yes but I also saw a lot of "nerds" suggesting gentoo to average joe
[05:34] <mhb> imbrandon: I can't count the number of gentoo folks that try to push gentoo to the servers although gentoo's not the best one for servers
[05:34] <imbrandon> mhb, and also for the hidden files, it is very very simple just to click "show hidden files"
[05:34] <Tonio_> thinking they'll never have to perform powerusers actions
[05:34] <Lure> Tonio_: I have proposed your two spec for uds-mtv
[05:34] <mhb> imbrandon: true, but I don't want to show hidden files :o) I just want to see the root ones
[05:34] <Tonio_> Lure: there are 3 specs :)
[05:34] <abattoir> hmm, i just tried removing .hidden and reinstalling kubuntu-default-settings, the file got back in
[05:34] <Tonio_> which ones did you proposed ?
[05:35] <mhb> imbrandon: I'm happier without the load of stuff hidden in $home
[05:35] <Lure> Tonio_: have seen only viop and samba
[05:35] <mhb> imbrandon: at least in konqueror
[05:35] <Tonio_> Lure: okay I'll proposed the third :)
[05:35] <Tonio_> Lure: media simplication
[05:35] <mhb> abattoir: you probably need to change the content, not deleting it
[05:35] <imbrandon> then you as a power user that knows things are in /usr/share/doc ( as opposed to joe that will click "help" on the kmenu ) can edit /.hidden ;)
[05:35] <imbrandon> easy as pie
[05:36] <Lure> Tonio_: I am thining about desktop search - we should really discuss kerry and strigi...
[05:36] <mhb> imbrandon: more work, though
[05:36] <imbrandon> mhb, well power users can do more work, joe cant
[05:36] <imbrandon> ( and often do )
[05:36] <Tonio_> Lure: absolutly true
[05:36] <Tonio_> Lure: is beagle splitted now ?
[05:37] <mhb> imbrandon: well I like kubuntu because I don't have to change the configuration much
[05:37] <imbrandon> mhb, how many times have you installed a OS ( linux or not ) and left everything 100% default ?
[05:37] <mhb> imbrandon: now I have to :o)
[05:37] <Lure> Tonio_: I do not think so (I prefer strigi anyhow - I hate C#/mono slack)
[05:37] <mhb> imbrandon: I make 100% less changes with Kubuntu than I did with slackware
[05:37] <Tonio_> Lure: hum yes, true :) mono sucks :)
[05:38] <imbrandon> mhb, sure, and give me a few use cases , infact start with 1 for a users getting at something not in /home or /media ?
[05:38] <imbrandon> i keep asking that and none can answer it, it seems they are just "used" to the old way
[05:38] <mhb> imbrandon: I need that
[05:38] <imbrandon> but again joe isnt 
[05:38] <imbrandon> you need what ?
[05:39] <mhb> imbrandon: joe shouldn't be used to going to / in the first place .o)
[05:39] <imbrandon> exactly
[05:39] <imbrandon> so why show it to him
[05:39] <mhb> imbrandon: no need to include Root Directory in the Quick Links on the left (in the open dialog)
[05:40] <imbrandon> not just the open dialogs
[05:40] <imbrandon> what about konqueror
[05:40] <mhb> imbrandon: what if you need to go there?
[05:41] <imbrandon> quick links are a dirty hack to fix a problem , a cluttered filesystem
[05:41] <imbrandon> mhb, simple , type it in or click show hidden files
[05:41] <imbrandon> but why would you need to go there, that what i;m asking, i can say what if all day
[05:42] <mhb> imbrandon: you're reading a documentation (read the bit about the outdated documentation above) or a HOWTO that says "Open the /var/log/something.log and make sure it contains the line aa bb"
[05:42] <imbrandon> serouisly, i'm asking, dont take me wrong, irc isnt the best communications at times
[05:42] <mhb> my pizza's ready, so let's wait a bit
[05:42] <imbrandon> sure and if it says /var/log/blah/blah TYPE IT IN as it says, but "joe" will click "Help" for docs
[05:42] <imbrandon> or go on the net
[05:43] <imbrandon> and a "howto" will tell you exactly how to do it ( mostly command line )
[05:44] <imbrandon> i still dont see that as a use case "for general every day use" , that is a corner case that is solved by "show hidden files" or typing it in
[05:48] <mhb> imbrandon: one possible argument is that normal users don't need to go to the root dir most of the time (which is good) but it's no explanation why we should hide it
[05:48] <mhb> imbrandon: nobody can say an argument when they need it because they don't.
[05:48] <mhb> imbrandon: but there are some users that need to
[05:48] <mhb> imbrandon: me
[05:48] <mhb> imbrandon: and other power users
[05:49] <imbrandon> well i have been publicly asking for 3 months now, and no one has come up with a reson they "need" it out side of your corner case you jsut made
[05:49] <mhb> imbrandon: the interesting thing is: what can they do if they descend into the / hierarchy?
[05:49] <mhb> imbrandon: can they do harm like the Windows users can?
[05:50] <mhb> imbrandon: they can only get lost, but they can easily get out with the friendly home icon
[05:50] <imbrandon> its not all about harm, its about confusion and easy adoption
[05:51] <imbrandon> why should i ( even as a power user ) have to scroll through 30 directorys on my / to get to /media when "day to day" on a "desktop os" i will never use those other directorty
[05:51] <mhb> imbrandon: my sister will get confused even if there is a one directory called "home"
[05:52] <mhb> imbrandon: because she doesn't speak English ... maybe we can work on the solution so that you actually don't need to go to the / dir and see the English
[05:52] <mhb> imbrandon: but when you do, you should see it
[05:52] <imbrandon> mhb, thats a translation issue, totaly OT for this issue
[05:53] <mhb> imbrandon: I disagree, though
[05:53] <imbrandon> howso?
[05:53] <imbrandon> there is a diffrence between computer littercy and easy of use
[05:54] <mhb> imbrandon: well the root directory is well documented in the kubuntu desktop guide
[05:54] <mhb> imbrandon: did you see that?
[05:54] <mhb> imbrandon: it clearly states what the directories are for and it should note which are important for the user
[05:55] <imbrandon> mhb, sure and on first use 98.999999% of users will never have read that, make it intutive , i dont want to have to read the docs to use it
[05:55] <imbrandon> make it ewasy to begin with
[05:55] <mhb> imbrandon: yes, I agree
[05:55] <imbrandon> then whats the problem ?
[05:55] <mhb> imbrandon: but I still can't see the logic behind the hiding
[05:55] <imbrandon> are they nessesary for every day use?
[05:55] <mhb> imbrandon: I feel it's kind of a workaround
[05:56] <mhb> imbrandon: the users in Dapper didn't have the need to go to the / directory and some of them have never been ther
[05:56] <mhb> imbrandon: why hide it then?
[05:56] <imbrandon> how else would they get to their files then ?
[05:57] <mhb> imbrandon: they start in their home directory, they can get to the media through the desktop or the System menu icon
[05:57] <imbrandon> what about if i want to open my music on a samba mount? why should i scroll through 30 directorys i'll never use to get to /media
[05:58] <imbrandon> mhb, but thats not how new users do it, they use one file browser as tought to them by windows and osx
[05:58] <mhb> imbrandon: what? you use the system menu icon, that's what it's there for... or use the link in the konqueror home page
[05:58] <mhb> imbrandon: konqueror default page can direct you to the samba places ... I use that myself sometimes
[05:58] <imbrandon> sure and you know what the system menu opens ? /
[05:58] <imbrandon> then i can clicki on media or home
[05:59] <imbrandon> where ever i need to go, not 30 others
[06:04] <mhb> well, my long arguments short... I don't think is wise to hide other dirs and direct everyone to / because the non-English users won't understand it (unlike System menu, which is translated like Home Folder, Storage Media, Remote Places and such) and the second thing I disagree with is that there is no configuration tool that can enable the root dirs only (not the home hidden files) - power users can spend a few minutes on fixing the files by hand
[06:05] <mhb> it's not that short, I know .o)
[06:06] <mhb> imbrandon: I understand it may be an improvement for the English novice users ... but if we create trouble for both the non-English novice and power users, it's too much trouble for too little features
[06:06] <mhb> after all, we're making a Linux distribution for everyone
[06:07] <mhb> or you are, to be exact :o)
[06:09] <mhb> but it's not me who makes the feedback, it's all of the Kubuntu users
[06:10] <mhb> I'll try to gather some opinions from them and then we may or may not reconsider
[06:11] <mhb> sorry about spamming :o) Howgh.
[06:11] <imbrandon> mhb, we have gathered many opinoins over the last 3 months and to be perfectly honest there has only been 3 "questions" about it from power users including your self , the rest has been a warm welcome, but you are welcome to do as you wish, feedback is always good
[06:12] <mhb> imbrandon: I've seen at least 2 people disagree with it today here including myself...
[06:13] <imbrandon> i seen you and another and that was included in the 3 ;)
[06:14] <imbrandon> and other than a translastion issue ( that you your self said was well documented ) i dont see a reason not to do it
[06:14] <mhb> imbrandon: that's a misinterpretation
[06:14] <imbrandon> howso? you said the root dir structor was documented, the docs are translated well
[06:14] <mhb> imbrandon: for example this change is not documented in kubuntu-docs at all, AFAIK
[06:15] <imbrandon> thats not what i said
[06:15] <mhb> imbrandon: instead there are descriptions of directories that are currently not there
[06:15] <mhb> imbrandon: I cannot consider this well-documented
[06:16] <mhb> imbrandon: the original structure was well documented, but the change actually corrupts the documentation in a way
[06:16] <imbrandon> they are their , just not shown, and if they are documented the so is /home was my point ( thats not translated )
[06:16] <mhb> imbrandon: and nobody can delete all that redundant stuff now, I fear
[06:16] <mhb> imbrandon: wasn't your point that it should not be necessary to see it? 
[06:16] <mhb> .o)
[06:16] <imbrandon> omg you did not read what i said
[06:17] <imbrandon> please read again
[06:17] <imbrandon> [11:13]  <imbrandon> and other than a translastion issue ( that you your self said was well documented ) i dont see a reason not to do it
[06:17] <imbrandon> the directory struct is documented correct ? you just said so, thus /home is documented, thus not a translation problem
[06:17] <mhb> imbrandon: wrong
[06:18] <imbrandon> as far as them being in the docs sure they still need to be becouse they are still there
[06:18] <mhb> imbrandon: the directory /home or /media was accessible through System menu documented strings
[06:18] <imbrandon> mhb, how is that wrong, i said the same thing you did just in a diffrent order
[06:18] <imbrandon> NOT WHAT I SAID
[06:18] <imbrandon> READ WHAT I SAID
[06:18] <mhb> imbrandon: stop screaming, please :o)
[06:19] <imbrandon> well please take a moment and read /again/ what i said, i have repeated it a few times now
[06:19] <imbrandon> it is quite clear, i can explain more details if needed
[06:20] <mhb> i dont want to have to read the docs to use it
[06:20] <mhb> what you said
[06:20] <imbrandon> you dont have to by your defination, do it the way you have been used to, we made it so when joe does it they way HE is used to it will look sane
[06:20] <mhb> but if I understand you correctly now you're suggesting non-English users have to read the docs to understand what "home" or "media" means
[06:21] <imbrandon> no , only what the directorys mean , that they would have had to do anyhow if they are in a position to where they see them
[06:22] <imbrandon> making home and media only visable in some places dosent change that they were not translated before in those same spots
[06:22] <imbrandon> thus a mute point about translation
[06:22] <mhb> imbrandon: they know what "Domovsk sloka" means (Home Folder) in Czech and they can click through that
[06:22] <imbrandon> sure
[06:22] <imbrandon> now exacvtly how is that a problem ?
[06:23] <coreymon77> hi guys
[06:23] <imbrandon> heya coreymon77
[06:23] <coreymon77> im using the edgy rc and was wondering if  i could maybe help somehow
[06:23] <imbrandon> mhb, ok let me put it to you like this
[06:23] <imbrandon> coreymon77, support for edgy is in #ubuntu+1
[06:23] <mhb> imbrandon: Riddell told me / should be a replacement for system:/ but system:/ is translated (therefore more accessible) while / is not
[06:24] <imbrandon> mhb, let me put it to you like this
[06:24] <mhb> imbrandon: ok
[06:24] <imbrandon> ok you are in the file browser where you see /usr /home /media 
[06:24] <coreymon77> i dont mean get help, i mean help out
[06:24] <imbrandon> corect ?
[06:24] <imbrandon> coreymon77, sure one sec i'll give you some info
[06:25] <imbrandon> ok mhb
[06:25] <imbrandon> NOW
[06:25] <imbrandon> i take away /usr 
[06:25] <imbrandon> how the heck dsoes that change weather /home is translated or not
[06:25] <Riddell> imbrandon: it should be doable with .directory files
[06:25] <imbrandon> it dosent, if they needed translation before it was hidden they still do now
[06:25] <coreymon77> i could maybe help with translating
[06:26] <coreymon77> i know some hebrew
[06:26] <imbrandon> Riddell, what should ?
[06:26] <imbrandon> ahh translation ?
[06:26] <mhb> Riddell: well it should be complete before the switch from system:/ to /
[06:26] <imbrandon> that would rock, could we slip that in -updates ?
[06:27] <imbrandon> mhb, edgy will have edges for new stuff ;)
[06:27] <mhb> imbrandon: I see it now
[06:27] <mhb> imbrandon: if you want to slip that in -updates it would be good to poke all the translators about that
[06:27] <mhb> imbrandon: I can do that
[06:27] <imbrandon> mhb, ok but let us get the implmentaion worked out first, i'm sure it would hit rosetta
[06:28] <imbrandon> but sounds like a .plan
[06:28] <imbrandon> coreymon77, sorry , was a bit into a disscussion
[06:28] <imbrandon> ok
[06:28] <mhb> imbrandon: -doc and lang guys should know about it at the right time, that's what I say
[06:28] <imbrandon> yes you are more than welcome to help translate http://launchpad.net ( not sure about the direct link but mhb could point you there )
[06:29] <imbrandon> coreymon77, ^^
[06:29] <mhb> coreymon77: https://launchpad.net/rosetta/
[06:29] <fdoving> one point about the /.hidden link, is that removing it will make it re-appear when kubuntu-system-settings is reinstalled. (it's in the postinst script, and it's not a config file.) The real file is /etc/kubuntu-default-settings/hidden-root and that's what users should remove if they don't want it.
[06:29] <imbrandon> and if you wish to help out packaging check out the package guide ( url to follow ) and hang out in #ubuntu-motu 
[06:29] <imbrandon> !package guide
[06:29] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[06:29] <imbrandon> fdoving, correct
[06:30] <mhb> fdoving: thanks
[06:30] <abattoir> fdoving: or making it empty solves it too, right?
[06:30] <fdoving> abattoir: true.
[06:31] <abattoir>  /.hidden, i.e
[06:31] <fdoving> yes.
[06:31] <fdoving> but, does adept handle user input now? or does it fail when files have been changed and apt ask what to do? 
[06:31] <mhb> Riddell: using the .directory entries this way would be really cool
[06:32] <mhb> Riddell: I'd be a lot happier then
[06:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: QString xmluiFile=cfg.readEntry("XMLUIFile","konqueror.rc");
[06:32] <Tonio_> this is why we miss options sometimes....... the good file isn't loaded...... pretty easy to fix though :)
[06:32] <fdoving> Riddell: does gnome-stuff handle .directory ? 
[06:33] <imbrandon> fdoving, yes
[06:33] <fdoving> ok, good.
[06:33] <imbrandon> err .directory , i misread that as .hidden
[06:33] <imbrandon> dunno i'll have to look
[06:34] <imbrandon> but i would assume so
[06:34] <mhb> fdoving: I guess so, not sure either
[06:34] <fdoving> i consider that important.
[06:37] <mhb> fdoving: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LangpacksDesktopfiles
[06:40] <fdoving> [URL properties] 
[06:40] <fdoving> ShowDotFiles=true
[06:40] <fdoving> works for konq.
[06:40] <fdoving> in /.directory
[06:44] <fdoving> my firefox does not understand that key.
[06:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'm preparing a new kds, renaming konq_kubuntu.rc to konqueror.rc, that resolves bug  41594
[06:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 41594 in kubuntu-default-settings "dapper: konqueror (web) won't always show all menu entries" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41594
[06:44] <Tonio_> no need to maintain a patch for this :)
[06:52] <coreymon77> ive finished the translating of adept updater into hebrew
[06:53] <mhb> coreymon77: thanks, it's aprreciated. However, I must inform you that we are already past the langugage pack deadline for Edgy Eft release
[06:54] <mhb> coreymon77: so don't be upset when your current translation won't ship with Edgy Eft, it will get to it with a language pack update (once in a month IIRC)
[06:55] <mhb> coreymon77: the Ubuntu and Kubuntu developers need some time to prepare the packages, that's why the deadline happened a few days before the release of Edgy Eft
[06:55] <coreymon77> oh
[06:55] <coreymon77> thats alright
[06:56] <coreymon77> im still doing someting
[06:56] <coreymon77> question
[06:57] <coreymon77> how do i become a part of a translator team?
[06:58] <mhb> coreymon77: go to the https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-he and in the top left corner there is a "Join Team" option
[06:59] <marseillai> Riddell: i'm currently waiting kopete developer but i tell you a problem i've find. in edgy each update of kopete makes me loose my notification rules specific for each group or contact. general rules for notification stay but specific disappear. so i'll ask if it's a kubuntu specific problem or a kopete specific problem.
[07:02] <coreymon77> okay
[07:02] <coreymon77> whats the deal with this generate gpg key thing
[07:02] <coreymon77> its not working
[07:02] <coreymon77> it gets to the generate alot of bbues thing
[07:02] <coreymon77> and then just stops
[07:02] <coreymon77> why is
[07:02] <coreymon77> that
[07:02] <coreymon77> what is going on?
[07:03] <coreymon77> okay
[07:03] <coreymon77> nvm
[07:03] <coreymon77> its fixed
[07:06] <coreymon77> what is my keyid?
[07:08] <Riddell> gpg --fingerprint jriddell@ubuntu.com
[07:08] <Riddell> pub   1024D/DD4D5088 2001-10-09
[07:08] <Riddell> 1024D/DD4D5088 bit is the ID
[07:10] <coreymon77> i think i found it
[07:12] <coreymon77> what the
[07:12] <coreymon77> i got this email full of a bunch of gibberish
[07:12] <coreymon77> what do i do with it?
[07:13] <coreymon77> Riddell: what do i do with the gibberish email?
[07:14] <coreymon77> help?
[07:16] <coreymon77> i cant do anything until i figure out what to do with this gibberish email (aka how to decrypt it) so can someone please help?
[07:16] <Riddell> coreymon77: save it as a file and run it through gpg
[07:17] <sebas> coreymon77: http://www.dewinter.com/gnupg_howto/english/GPGMiniHowto.html Has all the info you need.
[07:18] <mhb> Riddell: the fix for the guidance translation is in a released update already (so I understand the Fix Released)
[07:18] <mhb> ?
[07:18] <Riddell> mhb: yes, although the new .pot will need to be imported into rosetta
[07:19] <coreymon77> what do i save it as
[07:19] <coreymon77> a regular text file?
[07:20] <mhb> Riddell: can I bypass it (and test it) with renaming .mo files?
[07:20] <Riddell> mhb: sure
[07:20] <coreymon77> what do i save the text inside the gibberish email as?
[07:21] <mhb> coreymon77: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
[07:22] <mhb> coreymon77: helpful as well
[07:29] <coreymon77> okay
[07:30] <coreymon77> i coppied the stuff from the email and saved it as blah
[07:30] <coreymon77> but when i run gpg --decrypt blah
[07:30] <coreymon77> ists gives me an error
[07:30] <coreymon77> gpg: no valid OpenPGP data found.
[07:30] <coreymon77> gpg: decrypt_message failed: eof
[07:31] <mhb> Riddell: I wonder ... if I did a module for About Me in systemsettings that would be a tool for enabling some power-user tweaks in k-d-s, would that be accepted?
[07:31] <coreymon77> guys
[07:31] <coreymon77> what does that eror mean
[07:33] <coreymon77> w/e
[07:33] <coreymon77> i give up
[07:33] <mhb> coreymon77: did you follow the howto?
[07:34] <coreymon77> do i have to sign the cconduct thing first
[07:34] <Riddell> mhb: sounds unlikely
[07:34] <coreymon77> i typed in gpg --decrypt blah
[07:34] <coreymon77> and i have me
[07:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: already tested dolphin file manager ? looks very nice !
[07:34] <coreymon77> gpg: no valid OpenPGP data found.
[07:34] <coreymon77> gpg: decrypt_message failed: eof
[07:34] <Riddell> Tonio_: yes, it's interesting
[07:35] <raphink> hi 
[07:35] <raphink> :)
[07:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: I agree... could be very usefull for all those who find konqueror to complicated
[07:35] <coreymon77> what does that eror mean?
[07:35] <mhb> Riddell: nevermind then
[07:35] <Tonio_> but replacing konqueror looks like... a crime :)
[07:35] <raphink> Riddell: how are tasks defined?
[07:36] <raphink> Riddell: as in, when is Task: kubuntu-desktop added to packages?
[07:36] <Lure> Tonio_: dolphin for file mgmt, firefox for web browsing?
[07:37] <coreymon77> aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh
[07:37] <coreymon77> im confused
[07:37] <Riddell> raphink: Kamion knows the details of that better than I do
[07:38] <raphink> Riddell: alright :)
[07:38] <raphink> I pint him too much lately ;)
[07:38] <raphink> Riddell: do you at least know where the list of packages in a task is set?
[07:40] <Lure> anybody else experience kded 100% cpu usage after login and first kmail/akregator access of kwallet - only kill -9 helps
[07:40] <Lure> and when kded started from console, I get this unresolved libcrypto symbols: http://paste.tonio.homelinux.org/33
[07:40] <Riddell> raphink: well, the seeds
[07:41] <raphink> ah it's taken from the seeds?
[07:41] <Lure> Riddell: ^^^ could this be caused by recent libcrypto update (rebuild required?)
[07:41] <Riddell> raphink: yes
[07:41] <Riddell> Lure: I've not seen that
[07:41] <raphink> hmm but then
[07:41] <raphink> how is it put together?
[07:41] <raphink> during build?
[07:42] <Tonio_> Lure: don't even think about it :)
[07:42] <Tonio_> Lure: but if there was a kde based web browser, I would say that's "imaginable"
[07:43] <Lure> Riddell: funny is that I have clean profile created on clean RC install, so could hardly say it is some old stuff..
[07:43] <Tonio_> dolphin is really nice for file browsing, really, really nice
[07:43] <Lure> Tonio_: is it in universe?
[07:43] <Tonio_> nope
[07:43] <Tonio_> but we should have a package at least in universe
[07:44] <Tonio_> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=40491
[07:44] <Tonio_> here is the link
[07:44] <coreymon77> w/e
[07:44] <Tonio_> Lure: okay, start it  ! let's go
[07:44] <coreymon77> this  is pointless
[07:45] <Lure> Tonio_: btw, *thank you* for view toolbar icon in konqueror!
[07:45] <raphink> Lure: cmon you're not letting him concentrate on his race ;)
[07:45] <Tonio_> Lure: I'm just working on it, to make 3 buttons back
[07:45] <Tonio_> and replace the refresh/stop by one button only
[07:45] <Tonio_> Lure: packages on my repo in an hour
[07:46] <Lure> raphink: he need to have something to do while waiting for build to finish ;-)
[07:46] <raphink> hehe
[07:46] <raphink> sure, while test build is running, he can prepare debian/
[07:46] <raphink> ;)
[07:46] <Lure> Tonio_: what 3 buttons back?
[07:48] <Tonio_> Lure: the original function has 3 buttons
[07:48] <Tonio_> which is probably better to switch
[07:48] <Tonio_> Lure: but don't speak to me please :)
[07:48] <Tonio_> I'm packaging dolphin !!!
[07:48] <Lure> Tonio_: I already forgot about that
[07:48] <Lure> ;-)
[07:58] <Tonio_> Lure: done !
[07:59] <Tonio_> what's the time ?
[07:59] <Lure> Tonio_: 14 minutes
[07:59] <Lure> Tonio_: I will need more to install it ;-)
[07:59] <jdong> lol, is this a packaging race?
[08:00] <Tonio_> Lure: bah it is not build yet ;)
[08:00] <Tonio_> gimme 10 minutes more
[08:00] <Lure> jdong: yes, I am teasing Tonio_ - the fastest packager ever!
[08:00] <jdong> :)
[08:00] <Tonio_> but the build time doesn't count ! I don't have a dualcore !
[08:01] <jdong> it's been a fun week in GNOME
[08:01] <jdong> but all fun has to come to an end
[08:01] <mhb> jdong: don't do it, most of your files will be hidden :o)
[08:01] <jdong> (I'd still like to be able to set my printer properties from the print dialog dammit)
[08:01] <jdong> mhb: THEY ARE ALREADY  HIDDEN IN GNOME :D
[08:01] <jdong> damn crusaders
[08:01] <mhb> jdong: are they?
[08:01] <jdong> ;-)
[08:01] <jdong> mhb: sadly GNOME respects .hidden too
[08:02] <mhb> jdong: well if you don't have k-d-s they aren't, AFAIK
[08:02] <mhb> jdong: my pure-GNOME friend said that, I could be wrong
[08:02] <Tonio_> Lure: note that I didn't even download the sources when you started :)
[08:02] <Tonio_> hehe
[08:03] <jdong> mhb: right, but I do have kubuntu-desktop + ubuntu-desktop installed....
[08:03] <Tonio_> the longuest is to write the manpage in fact
[08:05] <Tonio_> Lure: will be on my repo in a fiew minutes
[08:07] <Tonio_> Lure: http://ubuntu.tonio/homelinux.org
[08:08] <Riddell> sebas: do you have nvidia?
[08:08] <sebas> Riddell: Yes
[08:08] <Lure> Tonio_: downloading
[08:08] <Riddell> sebas: which driver is used by default on install?
[08:09] <Tonio_> Lure: was that fast enough ? :)
[08:09] <Lure> Tonio_: what is your amarok package all about?
[08:09] <Riddell> sebas: actually, tackat is probably messenging you about it
[08:09] <Lure> Tonio_: as expected ;-)
[08:09] <sebas> Uhm, dunno. It's been some time since I did a clean install on this machine
[08:09] <Tonio_> Lure: lol
[08:09] <Lure> Tonio_: ;-)
[08:09] <sebas> Thanks for the warning, Riddell  ;-)
[08:09] <sebas> Too late though :>
[08:12] <Tonio_> Lure: my amarok package installs a new desktop file, for konqueror integration, so that we can replace kscd
[08:12] <Tonio_> Lure: all the multimedia simplification is on my repo, that's why there are so many packages
[08:13] <Tonio_> Lure: including the kaffeine without audio, and the k3b you helped me to patch etc...
[08:13] <Lure> Tonio_: you are too fast for us - I thought that we would discuss this in mtv and not just review your work and say GREAT ;-)
[08:13] <Tonio_> Lure: that'll be tested and reviewed, but I prepare to have something working so that I don't have to explain for hours what the result should be :)
[08:13] <Tonio_> this is just a testing implementation
[08:14] <Tonio_> this will probably be changed
[08:14] <Lure> Tonio_: I know - prototype tells much more than lots of words
[08:14] <Tonio_> exactly ;)
[08:15] <Tonio_> I also prepared kdebase, kdelibs and kdeutils including my ark patches
[08:15] <Tonio_> I'll probably suggest a new way to deal with compressed files
[08:15] <Ingmar^> http://pastebin.com/812072 <= how do i fix this ? " WARNING: Can't read module /lib/modules/2.6.17-10-generic/kernel/drivers/char/dtlk.ko: No such device " && a dozen of variations ...
[08:15] <Lure> Tonio_: we should try to talk with upstream to include some of these changes, not sure if kaffeine devel would be interested in patch to drop/make it configurable in build audio support
[08:15] <Tonio_> using the kpart by defualt, giving about the same rendering than the ioslaves
[08:15] <Tonio_> lots of people prefer this than standalone viewer
[08:16] <Tonio_> Lure: I already discussed with kaffeine upstream.....
[08:16] <Riddell> ** new CDs out http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/ http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily/
[08:16] <Tonio_> but he doesn't want to waste time fixing his code
[08:16] <Lure> Tonio_: they do not talk with you anymore, no? ;-)
[08:16] <Tonio_> Lure: he is only interested in dvb support now
[08:16] <Tonio_> Lure: hehe, some do not indeed :)
[08:17] <Tonio_> Lure: and lots of upstream do not like that we patch their stuff to much
[08:17] <Tonio_> or even change the default config, konversation upstream for example...
[08:17] <Tonio_> but I don't mind
[08:17] <Lure> Tonio_: but that is a life of kubuntu developers ;-)
[08:17] <Tonio_> if they don't want us to implement the way we want, they can provide proprietary licence
[08:18] <sebas> Is the kmail bugfix patch going into Edgy?
[08:18] <Lure> I think Kubuntu is great playground to try new concepts and I think it is important also for kde4 development (where some consolidation will happen)
[08:18] <sebas> </devil's advocate>
[08:18] <Lure> sebas: imbrandon claims it is already in
[08:18] <Tonio_> Lure: true that
[08:18] <sebas> Aye, that's good.
[08:19] <Lure> sebas: are you in mtv ?
[08:19] <Tonio_> Lure: I'll ping k3b upstream for the --device patch
[08:19] <sebas> Yes, will be.
[08:19] <Tonio_> could be usefull for scripting, really
[08:19] <Lure> sebas: great 
[08:19] <sebas> My new passport arrived last week.
[08:19] <sebas> Lure: You too? Cool!
[08:19] <Tonio_> but concerning kaffeine....... I don't expect much more than beeing ignored...
[08:20] <Lure> sebas: yep, I am in US (for work) next week, so I will just extend for another week
[08:20] <Ingmar^> http://pastebin.com/812072 <= how do i fix this ? " WARNING: Can't read module /lib/modules/2.6.17-10-generic/kernel/drivers/char/dtlk.ko: No such device " && a dozen of variations ...
[08:35] <marseillai> Since edgy i've lost one hour of autonomy and suspend to disk on my laptop! :(
[08:39] <Tonio_> marseillai: I have battery duration issues too
[08:39] <Tonio_> from 2 hours to 1h15 maximum...
[08:39] <marseillai> Tonio_: it seems my hard drive is always searching
[08:39] <Riddell> maybe lure's change yesterday will fix it
[08:39] <Lure> Tonio_: dolphin is nice and fast - just need to improve keyboard support 
[08:39] <marseillai> Tonio_: 4hours to three
[08:39] <Tonio_> Lure: yes I agree
[08:40] <Lure> Riddell: fix what??
[08:40] <Lure> marseillai: do you have kerry or strigi installed?
[08:40] <Riddell> Lure: when battery low is measured
[08:40] <marseillai> Lure: of course not on a laptop! :)
[08:40] <Riddell> or critical rather
[08:40] <Lure> marseillai: did you have laptop-mode on in dapper?
[08:41] <marseillai> Lure: yes i had
[08:41] <Lure> Riddell: my fix has nothing to do with this - it is just safety measure for some corner cases
[08:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: just saw a kds update today, did dholbach upload to bzr ?
[08:42] <Lure> marseillai: I also think that edgy consumes more power and cpu - my laptop just feels warmer (actually hot)
[08:42] <Riddell> Tonio_: mmm no, he's not a kubuntu-member, please sync up
[08:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay will do after lunch
[08:42] <marseillai> Lure: yes perhaps but loose one quarter of autonomy seems to be enormous
[08:43] <Lure> marseillai: agreed - maybe you should try booting dapper kernel to see if kernel is the cause
[08:43] <marseillai> Lure: i assume i've remove them! i'll try
[08:44] <Lure> marseillai: check also: sudo laptop_mode status
[08:45] <marseillai> how can i do that Lure ?
[08:45] <Lure> marseillai: run in it konsole and check if it is on
[08:45] <marseillai> ok
[08:47] <coreymon77> im gonna ask again
[08:47] <coreymon77> can you help me with the decryption thing
[08:48] <coreymon77> i dont know how to get the decyrption to work
[08:48] <coreymon77> launchpad sent me a gibberish email saying i have to decrypt it
[08:48] <coreymon77> i dont understand how
[08:49] <coreymon77> and these howtos ive been told to go to arent helping
[08:49] <coreymon77> can someone please help me
[08:50] <marsport> Lure: laptop_mode doesn't work
[08:50] <marsport> Lure: i'm marseillai 
[08:50] <Lure> marsport: does not return anything or is it disabled?
[08:51] <coreymon77> can someone please help me!
[09:01] <marseillai> Lure: thanks not laptop_mode is activate and i've 30 minutes of autonomy back! still lose 30 other but it's a better. thanks a lot
[09:15] <Lure> marseillai: good to know
[09:16] <marseillai> Lure: really thanks a lot
[09:16] <marseillai> now i'm working to get my hibernation back it seems the problem is with swsusp
[09:16] <marseillai> i can't see the entire message it's too fast
[09:17] <marseillai> but i hibernate swsusp gives an error after two other about wich i can't say anything then it lock my screen and came back to kde with screen lock
[09:25] <toma> woblymail
[09:25] <Lure> marseillai: just run "sudo pmi action hibernate" from konsole to see all messages
[09:25] <Lure> marseillai: does it break on hibernate or on resume?
[09:26] <marseillai> Lure: the first time i run it, it breaks on resume! now it breaks on hibernate.
[09:26] <Lure> marseillai: do you have swap enabled? (cat /proc/swaps) 
[09:26] <marseillai> Lure: i reboot to return on edgy kernel and tell you this
[09:27] <Lure> I suspect that broke on resume may broken your swap and now you cannot hibernate as swap is missing
[09:29] <marseillai> Lure: cat /proc/swaps is empty
[09:29] <Lure> marseillai: that is it - try "sudo swapon -a"
[09:30] <Lure> do you use lvm?
[09:31] <marsport> Lure: swapon: /dev/disk/by-uuid/aa0abb45-4fa9-4d81-8895-d25323e8ed12: Argument invalide
[09:31] <marsport> Lure: don't know what is lvm ... 
[09:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: the kds modification for the konqueror settings loading works ;) 
[09:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: not even a patch to maintain
[09:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: just sad I didn't found the solution before edgy......
[09:31] <Lure> marsport: I am just searching for a bug that mdz assigned today to Keybuk - I think you have the same problem...
[09:32] <marsport> Lure: so wait for upgrade ?
[09:33] <Lure> marsport: you can fix it by doing "sudo mkswap <dev>" (be sure that <dev> is the right partition!) and then put the returend uuid into /etc/fstab in the swap line, 
[09:34] <Lure> marsport: and also /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume
[09:34] <Lure> marsport: "sudo swapon -a" (should work now) and "sudo update-initramfs -u", reboot and it should work at least once (hibernate)
[09:35] <Lure> marsport: see  bug 66637
[09:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 66637 in Ubuntu "swap not being mounted on boot" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/66637
[09:38] <marsport> Lure: in /etc/initramfs/conf.d/resume i should have RESUME=<uuid of swap?>
[09:38] <Lure> marsport: RESUME=UUID=<uuid of swap>
[09:38] <marsport> oki
[09:38] <Lure> marsport: same "device" as in /etc/fstab
[09:39] <Lure> marsport: and swapon -a will probably not work until reboot
[09:40] <marsport> oki lure let's reboot and try
[09:40] <Lure> marseillai: and please try hibernate from konsole so that you get output
[09:41] <marseillai> yes
[09:42] <Lure> anybody interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuFirefox#preview
[09:48] <marseillai> Lure: now hibernate works but i got this mistake : "pnp: failed to activate device 00:04 and pnp: failed to activate device 00:05" i try a resume!
[09:48] <marseillai> Lure: ?
[09:48] <marseillai> you know what?
[09:48] <Lure> marseillai: you can ignore this error (i have it too)
[09:49] <marseillai> it works fine now! :)
[09:49] <Lure> marseillai: great
[09:49] <marseillai> thanks a lot for your time and your help
[09:49] <nuku> Lure: a hacky solution for kde dialogs in fx: http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=36077 :)
[09:50] <Lure> nuku: I know abouth that one - too ugly to even discuss ;-)
[09:50] <nuku> hehe :)
[09:51] <nuku> but it seems to work at least... well i must admit that i don't use fx at all :)
[09:58] <zorglu_> q. i rebooted, my root partition reached its 'maximal mount count' and a fsck has been launched, it faileds and display a red 'FAILED' for one second and *automatically* rebooted. not letting me time to read the whole message. is this normal to get this automatic reboot ?
[10:46] <oslo> after i done a make install, trying to launch the apps, /usr/local/kde/share/apps/kicker/applets/ftpmonitor.desktop , does this one can help me run ftpmonitor, 'cause i'm not finding how ???
[10:55] <steveire> http://vizzzion.org/?id=pyqt < Hey, that tutorial mentions using pyuic to make a gui from a foo.ui file. I don't seem to have any pyuic on my system though. Can somebody point me at it?
[10:57] <nixternal> pyqt-tools
[10:57] <nixternal> if you are doing Qt4, then look at getting pyqt4-dev-tools
[10:57] <mhb> hi folks, I'm back
[10:58] <mhb> imbrandon, Tonio_ : I must say most people react positively about the directory hiding
[10:59] <_Sime> nixternal: ah ha! so that is where the qt4 version of pyuic is kept...
[10:59] <steveire> cheers
[10:59] <mhb> they got me convinced it's a good thing after all :o) but IMO it needs to be documented well before the release
[10:59] <nixternal> apt-cache search pyuic
[10:59] <nixternal> ;)
[10:59] <_Sime> mhb: I had a quick look on ubuntuforums and there was just one or 2 people complaining.
[10:59] <nixternal> i cheated
[11:00] <mhb> _Sime: I did a Czech Linux poll about it, I was against it at first but I'll probably change my mind
[11:00] <_Sime> ;-)
[11:00] <mhb> _Sime: as I said I think it needs to be documented better
[11:01] <_Sime> mhb: it does need to be documented in the "What's new" list. It freaks the old timers out.
[11:01] <mhb> _Sime: see for example http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263876 quote: "I'm curious as to where you found this out?"
[11:01] <mhb> _Sime: sure, plus some wiki page describing what, why and how to do it the old way
[11:02] <mhb> so we can simply say "Read this!" and that will suffice
[11:20] <Tonio_> mhb: thanks for beeing objective :)
[11:26] <mhb> Tonio_: no problem, I'm not stubborn most of the time
[11:26] <mhb> Tonio_: thanks for having patience with me .o)
[11:27] <mhb> if someone writes an informational wiki page about the /.hidden file feature, please let me know, thanks
[11:32] <sivang> hi all
[11:32] <sivang> just dropped by to say thank you for integrating k3b in kubuntu :)
[11:32] <Riddell> we converted sivang to KDE!
[11:33] <sivang> hehe,  I'm getting too close , seriously :)
[11:34] <sivang> trying 3-4 universe gnome burning solutions, and then n-c-b itself which chocked hard, k3b was the only thing to rescue
[11:34] <sivang> Riddell: I am in urgent need to burn some DVD-Rs for Liat, k3b just solved it and let me go on with life ;)
[11:34] <Riddell> sivang: fancy testing konversation in hebrew?  the 1.0.1 version should have good right to left support but it would be good to test that out
[11:35] <sivang> Riddell: lemme have it, do I need to update/dist-upgrade for latest to hit me?
[11:35] <Riddell> it went in last week
[11:35] <sivang> Riddell: btw, k3b got SO much better since the last time I saw it
[11:36] <sivang> Riddell: somehere also around the Feisty cycle, we need to discuss integrating hubackup into kubuntu, although kubunutu probably has kdar already :)
[11:37] <Riddell> kdar isn't in main
[11:38] <Riddell> it's unmaintained
[11:39] <sivang> okay, so this makes integrating hubackup relevant.
[11:40] <sivan> re
[11:41] <Tonio_> mhb: you don't require patience :)
[11:41] <Tonio_> don't claim to be worse than you are :)
[11:42] <sivan> sivang: 
[11:42] <sivang> sivan: 
[11:43] <sivang> Riddell: seems to work with letting me input LTR cleanly
[11:44] <sivang> Riddell: s/LTR/RTL/
[11:48] <Tonio_> imbrandon: ping ?
[11:49] <Tonio_> or lure maybe ?
[11:56] <Tonio_> Lure: didn't thank you for correcting the specs wikipages :)
[12:01] <sivang> could someone remind me how to pull the Mac OS X style magic to ALT-F2 ? :)
[12:02] <Riddell> alt-space in kubuntu
[12:02] <sivang> Riddell: thanks!
[12:03] <Tonio_> sivang: give a try at kubuntu ? ;)
[12:03] <sivang> Tonio_: Well, I give it tries a couple of times already 
[12:03] <sivang> Tonio_: so this is not the first time
[12:04] <Tonio_> sivang: hehe okay :)
[12:04] <sivang> I'm though wondering, how quick could I get into packaging kubuntu stuff (given the stack and toolchain at the debhelper/cdbs level is different) and doing development.
[12:05] <Tonio_> sivang: probably very quick
[12:06] <Tonio_> sivang: kubuntu packaging requires a few specific knowledge, but not that much
[12:06] <Tonio_> once you know about buildprep, the standard deps for kubuntu based apps, and the rosetta patch, you know enough to start
[12:07] <Tonio_> sivang: is there a kind of buildprep equivalent for gnome apps ?
[12:07] <sivang> Tonio_: that's reassuring. Do you have any idea of a package I could look at if I want to learn to do sid->kubuntu mergers and/or sid->(upstream)->kubuntu mergers?
[12:07] <sivang> Tonio_: I am not sure what buildprep is :)
[12:08] <Tonio_> sivang: kde apps have an admin folder, and the buildprep cdbs rule automates the make -f admin/Makefile.cvs, including patching the stuff before generating the Makefiles
[12:08] <Tonio_> sivang: hum, in fact merging apps doesn't require any specific most of the time
[12:08] <Tonio_> except for the rosetta patch
[12:09] <sivang> I see
[12:09] <Tonio_> sivang: the only specific is for packages that we have to manage differently than debian, like kmplayer
[12:09] <Riddell> and the autoconf 1.6 patch
[12:09] <sivang> Riddell: what does that patch entails? 
[12:09] <Riddell> f 1.6
[12:09] <Tonio_> we are splitting it because we don't want to ship the full package, but appart from that, merging generally only consists in an entry in the changelog :)
[12:09] <Riddell> adding support for autoconf 1.6
[12:10] <sivang> ah
[12:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: ah ! true that, I forgot it ;)
[12:10] <sivang> hrm, dreadful
[12:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: 2.6 no ?
[12:10] <sivang> ;)
[12:10] <nixternal> ryanakca: you around?
[12:10] <sivang> Tonio_: re the mergers question, 
[12:11] <Tonio_> sivang: yes ?
[12:11] <sivang> Tonio_: I did a merge when edgy started for notification-daemon
[12:11] <ryanakca> nixternal: doing math homework, but yes, I'm around...
[12:11] <sivang> this involved taking relevant bits from the sid package,
[12:11] <nixternal> hehe, ok..i was gonna work on the release page a little, and was wondering what you haven't done yet ;)
[12:11] <Riddell> hmm, gnome does have a admin/Makefile.common equivalent but I can't find it just now
[12:11] <nixternal> you have been rocking on it
[12:11] <sivang> taking the stuff we want from upstream
[12:11] <ryanakca> nixternal: I looked at that DocBook book, looked at the sources for that book your working on... not more than that
[12:11] <sivang> and finally to merge it with out currnet package
[12:11] <Riddell> sivang: does gnome not use SVN yet?
[12:11] <sivang> Tonio_: it was not easy, I can vouch
[12:12] <ryanakca> nixternal: rocking on?
[12:12] <sivang> Riddell: mostly not, most of the upstream archive is CVS AFAIK