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dtamasThe edgy artwork is finished or it will be updated soon?02:00
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troy_swholly full house07:25
troy_sgreetings everyone07:26
sittisalhi troy_s07:42
n8k99hi troy_s07:43
sittisali think that this is a chatroom were everyone of us hope a new good ubuntu's look07:43
sittisalbut i think that we sohould wait for edgy+107:43
n8k99n8k99 has anyone constructed an artwork roadmap for feisty,yet?07:44
sittisalanyway... also fedora core 6 delayed echo deploymento to fedora core 707:45
sittisali think that echo icon theme is the most beautiful and professional icon theme for linux07:45
sittisalbased on tango... looks more attractive than tango07:46
sittisalfucking current artwork07:50
sittisalubuntu should be different from tiger or windows07:51
sittisalthe new wallpaper is like tiger's one07:51
sittisalonly brown07:51
troy_sartwork is not in our domain08:04
troy_si'm afraid08:04
troy_ssabdfl has hired the fellow who designed this stunning site:  http://spacejunkdesigns.com08:05
troy_sto do the work for fiesty08:05
troy_she is also the fellow who designed the dapper look08:05
troy_sn8k99 there was a roadmap in place for edgy, it was trumped by sabdfl.08:06
troy_ssittisal and I wouldn't be holding my breath for that 'good new ubuntu look' in edgy+108:06
troy_sbrb... dapper booting...08:07
n8k99troy_s: i realize that - I was wondering if there had been work towards planning feisty08:07
n8k99troy_s: with the hope of pleasing sabfl in plenty of time to make it in08:08
sittisalvisual appearence is a must for desktop oriented os08:08
n8k99oh i see08:08
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n8k99so no community efforts towards feisty?08:09
sittisalwhat about accepting proposal?08:09
sittisaltoo resctrictive08:09
troy_snot a chance08:10
troy_sthe default work will all be spackjunkdesign08:10
troy_sto the best of my knowledge08:10
troy_si believe sab intends to open the community up to submissions for 'other' areas08:11
troy_ssuch as cd work08:11
n8k99wow! that website isn't very stunning as it doesn't even load08:11
troy_sin the same vein as the spacejunkdesign08:11
troy_sn8k99 ;)08:11
sittisali mean this08:11
troy_syou need the new flash08:11
troy_slet me check the link n8k9908:11
n8k99won't happen as adobe does not acknowledge that people use linux on ppc08:12
troy_swell... and it is closed source08:12
troy_sso i suggest boycotting it all together08:12
troy_sit is far too limited in scope for consideration in a global web world.08:13
troy_sso basically, the artwork team will need to follow the stylings of whatever is set for feisty08:13
troy_sgood on one side, bad on another.08:13
n8k99yeah - i can boycott it aall i want but my friends all youtube08:13
troy_sn8k99 well utube is now google08:14
troy_sso wait for some changes08:14
troy_sand there has been a lot of work in the open source community surrounding the open flash implementation08:14
troy_sfor playing flash movies etc.08:14
n8k99yeah i'm not particularly concerned about that stuff08:14
troy_spersonally, i would suggest you send well written emails to the people who provide and support such limited software.08:14
troy_sfor example, the bbc was using realplayer codec to stream their global audio08:15
troy_smost of it is probably based in ignorance of options.08:15
troy_sand they generally aren't aware of the implications until people send them mail.08:15
n8k99i am disappointed about no community efforts for feisty08:15
troy_sn8k99 the community effort will still be there08:15
troy_sjust not in the default look  / feel.08:15
troy_suntil sabdfl lightens his grip on aesthetics, which isn't likely to happen as i doubt his mailbox is filling up with complaints, etc.08:16
n8k99i realize that - kinda hard to get full thoughts out with 1 hand (baby in lap)08:16
troy_saw congrats!08:17
troy_sboy girl?08:17
n8k99thanks, she is 18 mos08:17
troy_saw sweetie08:17
n8k99i stay at home wit her08:17
troy_salthough that is borderline 'kid' mode now :)08:17
n8k99yeah trully08:17
troy_si guess i should probably calculate my age in months08:17
troy_sit might make for some interesting conversations08:17
n8k99check the pics if you like http://eckenrodehouse.net08:17
lapodesign by community won't work08:18
troy_si am 433 months old.08:18
troy_slapo i disagree08:18
lapomark is right imho08:18
troy_smake no mistake, i think that the fine arts community has plenty to learn regarding open design / free design08:18
n8k99troy_s born in june?08:18
n8k99ah, may here08:19
troy_stheir little heads are so squishy at that age :)08:19
n8k99so 438 months08:19
troy_slapo:  realistically,08:19
troy_slapo:  one cannot argue that multiple minds always will design better products08:19
lapotroy_s: you should mix other people atrwork well, but you need a finisher who make the whole package consistent08:19
troy_slapo:  i disagree... the consistency level is largely a byproduct of skill08:20
troy_slapo:  and in the short term, i would agree that a final 'polisher' could work to override the skills ability to bring all of the work up to a consistent level.08:20
troy_slapo:  but as people get a feel for free design, i think their ability to fit in will increase.08:20
troy_slapo:  just like the work on firefox -- you don't just start renegade coding... you look at the libs, you look at the code base, etc.08:21
lapotroy_s: is a loooong process to get a common style out of a group of people08:21
troy_slapo:  that is why all products that have effective design start with a design bible08:21
troy_sit clearly outlines a full palette with goals and techniques, line work discussions, etc.08:21
troy_smakes it far easier to _start_ the race if everyone is on the same course.08:22
lapowe're barelly there with tango, because it's some time we work together (and we are few people)08:22
troy_sunfortunately, most people don't treat the fine arts as a scientific process, which is truly is.08:22
troy_slapo:  possibly started out too loose08:22
troy_slapo:  for example, before you shoot a single frame of film for a television series, you spend a good while designing the bible08:22
troy_swhich can be a massive tome08:22
troy_ssame thing with something like a video game08:23
troy_syou have a design document08:23
troy_syou _do not_ just start 'desgining'08:23
lapothat's right the directions mark gave you were to way too vague08:23
troy_syou can do that during your brainstorm.08:23
troy_slapo:  yep08:23
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troy_si _tried_ to milk his aesthetic out, but he is far too resistant08:23
troy_smsikma!  good to see you friend.08:23
troy_sthe reality is that community based free design _cannot_ operate functionally until it is attacked in the same professional manner as all other projects.08:24
troy_sfor example,08:24
troy_slook at vista's guidelines:08:24
lapotroy_s: mark directing an artwork team is like lapo doing software architecture work :-)08:24
msikmaHi troy_s08:24
troy_slapo:  100% agreement from me08:24
n8k99so, my question is: why do we not have an actual construction of a design bible and follow a true production roadmap?08:24
msikmaHow's things?08:24
lapoyo msikma08:24
troy_sn8k99 because there is NO look for ubuntu08:24
troy_sdesign is visual literacy08:24
troy_smeaning it should COMMUNICATE08:24
troy_sand ubuntu's visuals communicate NOTHING08:24
n8k99why not?08:24
troy_smedium grey08:25
msikmatroy_s: nice to see things I agree with being said right as I join the channel08:25
lapovery right08:25
troy_sa) no motifs08:25
troy_sb) no palette structure (although on a smaller battlefield i think we won this in edgy)08:25
msikmamy computer is incredibly slow right now since I have 136 KB free space, urgh. brb.08:25
troy_salbeit monochrome hell.08:25
troy_sc) no keywords08:25
troy_sc -- for example (Human, Community, etc)08:25
laposo true08:26
lapono team work08:26
lapoI'd add08:26
troy_si have read probably 100 design and art books since i graduated from art school08:26
troy_sand ubuntu defies _every_ single element08:26
troy_swell the team work needs to be worked at08:26
troy_swe are a fresh team08:26
troy_sand we all need to learn08:26
troy_severyone puts their hands up in the air and says 'it will never work'08:26
n8k99right - what i am asking is why do these things which we do not have, do not get implimentedunless sabfl does not want them?08:27
troy_sinstead of truly trying08:27
troy_sn8k99 i think sabdfl simply doesn't understand08:27
troy_she is a very bright guy08:27
troy_swith a wonderful vision08:27
troy_sbut regarding aesthetics, i think he really needs to hire a firm and have these elements _forced_ upon him08:27
troy_snot some renegade solo guy08:27
troy_ssolo works _always_ appear to work better because ONE mind internally bears the consistency08:28
troy_showever, that is not true design08:28
msikmaThere's something that I'd like to add. I noticed that the widgets of LegacyHuman were changed (and visually broken) since I upgraded to 6.10. It made me realize that this project's artwork, in the open source spirit, is constantly adapting even though it's sometimes simply a much better idea to leave something as it is, as I feel stability is an extremely important thing that the open source community simply never pays attention to.08:28
troy_sread _anything_ about apple's Ive's work08:28
troy_sor any serious design movement such as bahaus08:28
troy_smsikma:  i agree... if we could build in small ways08:28
msikmaI was thinking of saying some other things in this conversation but it's not really necessary anymore, reading the past screen.08:28
troy_sfor example,08:28
troy_si was hoping that we could get some 'motifs' in place so that every release we could change them08:29
troy_sfor example08:29
troy_sif we had a true colour palette08:29
n8k99bug 6754808:29
UbugtuMalone bug 67548 in legacyhuman-theme "LegacyHuman controls/widgets visually broken" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6754808:29
troy_swe could use say, three colours that are used to visually 'mark' the release08:29
msikmaindeed, n8k9908:29
troy_sin a particular motif08:29
troy_sbut all of this is for naught as mark's opinion regarding this is unmovable.08:29
laposo true08:30
troy_sfurther, i take an offense at the 'official' take that the artwork team failed08:30
troy_swe had a schedule08:30
n8k99troy_s it appears that the answer I was seeking is "because mark says so"08:30
troy_swe had a clearly outlined process08:30
troy_sn8k99 now you are getting closer to the money08:30
troy_swe had as much structure that was needed (i implemented an almost identical structure at blackbox games for camera work)08:30
n8k99troy_s which makes me want to dislist myself from anything art08:30
troy_s(on some need for speed contract work)08:31
troy_swell no08:31
troy_sit is exactly that that will let the issue rest08:31
troy_swe must remain strong08:31
troy_sand keep our massive progress together08:31
troy_swe will have setbacks, and the reality is that _any_ project worth anything will have creative conflict08:31
troy_s(just ask msikma and myself)08:31
troy_swe must keep the creative conflict going, but the team should still be unified.08:32
lapotroy_s: mark is in hid right "dictating" about the arwork in ubuntu, the problem is that he is not the right man for such a job, so the whole thing is ill-fated imho08:32
troy_slapo:  for the now, i might agree.08:32
msikmaI do think that Mark cares about art.08:32
troy_smsikma:  agree 100%08:32
n8k99well, in that case - i'd really like it if we set about putting a true design process in place so that we can turn out a consistent product with one month to spare on feist08:32
troy_she is not a dummy08:32
lapomsikma: he cares, but he has no artistic eyes08:32
troy_swell... first thing first08:32
msikmaSimply put, he cares about it enough to not want to make any huge changes unless he is _fully_ confident in them.08:33
troy_swhat we need to do is stay together as a team08:33
troy_sand let him do what he does.08:33
lapohe is surelly a brulliant guy, but artistically speaking he is not08:33
troy_she is a ++terrific++ leader.08:33
lapothat very true08:33
troy_sthat said, we must keep level heads and perhaps form a theme team08:33
troy_swhere ALL of the folks who have expertise08:33
n8k99troy_s right_ that is why i suggest that we put together a design plan08:33
troy_ssuch as lapo and andreasn etc.08:33
troy_sn8k99 did you see the design plan that was in place for edgy?08:34
n8k99troy_s i did - i am talking about one that is as specific as you have been discussing08:34
lapotroy_s: I cannot really work on something I disagree with (that my hobby, not my work :-)) and the guidelines mark gave are totally wrong imho08:34
msikmatroy_s: regarding the discussion above, I think it would be wise to call in some sort of a meeting concerning the planning for the next release.08:34
troy_smsikma:  i think that would be great08:34
troy_sbut i don't want to appear as though we are trying to 'redirect' the talent pool08:34
msikmaWhat's it called? feisty fawn?08:34
troy_si want everyone to really try and keep pushing ubuntu forwards in little ways08:35
troy_sfor example, fixing smaller icon issues08:35
msikmaMaybe even set up a separate mailing list specifically for red tape purposes.08:35
troy_swhile at the same time,08:35
troy_s_collaboratively_ working together to design a bible08:35
n8k99troy_s what do you mean 'redirect'?08:35
troy_sto start building from08:35
troy_sn8k99 we run the risk of appearing like disgrunteled employees and 'doing our own thing'08:35
lapotroy_s: I don't want to offend anyone here, but human icon theme is a mess08:35
troy_swhat i would like in an ideal world is to take _all_08:36
troy_slapo:  you won't find anyone disagreeing with you here lapo i think08:36
lapotroy_s: ubuntu should follow the gnome path (as kubuntu does, for example) so tango style08:36
troy_slapo:  it is missing motifs, styles, etc.08:36
troy_slapo:  well i think a look should be distinct on that front08:36
troy_slapo:  a custom icon set is the foundation for a distinct operating system08:36
troy_slapo:  but namespaces and such that tango has set forth should be abided by08:36
msikmatroy_s: it should be argued, though, that this is a Linux distro aimed at non-Linux users.08:36
troy_smsikma:  100% agree08:37
lapotroy_s: you can have a distinct icon set following tango guidelines, as a lot of linux application are doing08:37
troy_slapo:  then perhaps we are in agreement08:37
troy_sas soon as i see tango i immediately (and wrongly) knee jerk into visualing the tango theme08:37
msikmaThey don't care that Bougainvillea Linux 1.5 or whatever other distros there are also have Tango. But that's beside the point, since I don't feel like touching the icon issue for some time.08:37
troy_si am all for supporting the hard work jimmac has put in getting standards in place etc.08:37
lapoyep, and the standards for tango are working nicely08:38
troy_sfundamentally though, i would say that the icon look should be a part of the overall look08:38
lapothere's even a community around it, which works!08:38
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troy_slapo:  indeed.  that said i would say that the consistency factor still needs resolution -- again probably a byproduct of not having a design bible.08:38
lapothe overall look should be tango style imho08:38
troy_sthe design bible for icons should be deadly specific regarding two point perspective angles and distance, etc.08:39
lapotroy_s: you cannot really reach consistency w/o going tango style for the icons for example, you cannot have enough man power to redo all the icons08:39
msikmaTango look isn't perfect either. Tango actually has very little to do with what I believe would be specifically Ubuntu.08:39
troy_si agree with msikma here.08:39
troy_slapo:  if we truly do real work here08:39
lapowhat is tango look for you08:39
troy_sand work from paper sketch08:39
troy_san _entire_ icon set could be developed in a month08:40
troy_sleaving many more for polishing etc.08:40
lapotroy_s: noway08:40
msikmaSure it can.08:40
troy_sif we have a clear design bible08:40
troy_sa clear set of looks08:40
msikmaMake one icon per day and see how far you can get!08:40
n8k99troy_s exactly08:40
troy_sa clear way of discarding completely out of line images08:40
msikmaThen do that with five people.08:40
lapomsikma: only ooo will take at least 3 montht08:40
troy_sI personally could do it in a month08:40
n8k99no that! a plan!08:40
troy_snot a chance08:41
troy_slapo:  have you seen some of the work in gant?08:41
troy_sthis guy has churned out about 600 high quality icons08:41
troy_she has a singular vision08:41
msikmaIn less than a month, you'll have maybe about 40% of the entire icon range done, but here's the thing: only 10% of the time that you use the system will you come across the other 60%.08:41
troy_swhich is what a bible attacks08:41
troy_sa plan08:41
lapotroy_s: nope, but I know how much time jimmac (which is uber fast) needs to do an icon08:41
troy_smiskma:  and polish08:41
troy_slapo:  i am saying get the BROAD strokes in place08:41
troy_sand polish based on visibility of icons08:41
lapotroy_s: I am a slow picky bastard, but jimmac is light speed :-)08:41
troy_smeaning ONCE the icon is in place08:42
troy_sPOLISH it08:42
troy_sas we can08:42
n8k99icons desinged per the bible in one month, several months to polish and finish08:42
troy_sperhaps we run with only svg monochrome line work to start08:42
lapotroy_s: yes but you still have to polish omething like 300 or more icons08:42
troy_sn8k99 bingo08:42
troy_slapo:  well remember08:42
troy_san icon exists on a much smaller scale than wallapper08:42
n8k99film porcess: rehearsal, light, shoot08:42
troy_sif you use the 'forest through trees' mentality08:42
troy_sn8k99 bingo08:42
msikmaThere's an illustrator at work who makes awesome things. He works in Illustrator, he never uses layers, he never uses shortcut keys for the tools, he never uses algorithms to generate art or perform certain effects, but he works so incredibly fast.08:42
troy_sn8k99 brainstorm, set guidelines, build bible, set teams for creating elements08:43
troy_smsikma:  bingo08:43
troy_strue artists don't worry about tools08:43
troy_sin fact, many of the guys i know who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars at art08:43
troy_stake restrictions as creative challenges08:43
troy_s'what can you do with this box of toothpicks and black ink?'08:43
troy_si think we can do it08:44
troy_smy only concern08:44
msikmaCan you run Flash yet? You can find his work under Illustration > Mr. Feaver (http://www.shop-around.nl/)08:44
n8k99had an art teacher once make us paint small picture with giant brush08:44
troy_sn8k99: awsome.08:44
n8k99then next project was giant painting with tiny detail brush08:44
troy_si did the same sort of project for some photography work, we had to use only three shapes -- a cube a pyramid and a sphere with no background and one light08:44
troy_ssimilar tasks08:45
troy_sthere is a _terrific_ design book called visual literacy i believe08:45
troy_sthat has a hundred of those projects08:45
troy_show to communicate 'unity' with six black squares all of the same shape etc.08:45
laponice chat guys, have to go, later08:45
troy_smsikma, yah i am on dapper and have a 32 bit firefox08:45
troy_slet me look08:45
troy_sanyways, i think it is well worthwhile getting the brainstorming going08:46
troy_sfurther, because we wouldn't be tied to the ubuntu release cycle08:46
troy_swe only need to proceed once everyone is relatively08:46
troy_sregister your nickname n8k9908:46
troy_s"/msg nickserv register PASSWORD"08:46
n8k99i did08:46
n8k99yeah - i already have08:47
troy_sit was me:)08:47
troy_si changed my pass08:47
troy_ssorry for my ignorance08:47
n8k99i had to start Blue's Clues on the mac mini to get some space!!08:49
troy_sgreat stuff at that link08:50
msikmaDo you like it?08:50
troy_samazing artist08:50
troy_syes i really do08:50
troy_si love it.08:50
troy_si always head straight to illustration08:50
msikmaThat's the Shop Around. It's not where I work, but it's right above us at the office building. The two companies go way back, and most of our work comes from them.08:50
troy_sbecause i find that is the one area you can't fake easily :)08:51
msikmaHehe yeah08:51
troy_sthe original stylized stuff is amazing08:51
msikmaThey're kind of like an agency for designers and the likes of. They have a database with people. So that's why they're the "design supermarket".08:51
msikmaYou go there and shop for an artist.08:51
troy_saneurin wright is pretty incredible08:52
troy_sangelique houtcamp08:52
troy_slove her style08:52
troy_serik kreiks work is good too.08:53
msikmaAnouk Griffioen used to be my teacher for a year08:53
troy_slet me look08:54
msikmaThen suddenly when I went to get coffee I saw her sitting at shop around :P08:54
troy_svery mimetic08:54
msikmaI didn't learn much, though. The school was terrible. We only had a few lessons.08:54
troy_snot my alley.08:54
troy_smsikma:  it can largely depend on the type of art school you go to.08:54
troy_smsikma:  for example, the school that i got my bfa from was largely avant-garde, which was really eye opening.08:54
msikmaI actually don't understand why they put only that work of her up. She's got other stuff too which is a bit less abstract.08:55
troy_smore abstract?08:55
troy_sthe work there of hers is rather like photography08:55
troy_si would rather see something more stylized.08:56
msikmaWell, maybe abstract isn't the right word.08:56
troy_stoko's work is quite good in the design category08:57
troy_sinteresting stuff there to say the least08:57
troy_si love angeliques and aneurin's work08:59
n8k99i am very interested in the prospect of setting a theme/unified look/feel without all the plasticy/glossy stuff08:59
troy_splastic and glossy is09:00
troy_svery dated09:00
troy_sin my opinion09:00
n8k99but to make it alll look as if it is handmade by 19th centruy craftsmen09:00
n8k99your know germany toymakers09:00
troy_si was discussing this with an art director in town09:00
troy_si simply love that idea09:00
troy_svery 'value'09:00
troy_snot cranked out by a plastic mould making machine09:00
troy_swhat is your email address n8k:?09:00
troy_shere let me put them on the wiki09:01
troy_scheck this out... truly might blow you away09:01
troy_sthis is robin william's computer from the final cut09:01
troy_si know the art director09:01
troy_swho did that film09:01
troy_slet me put it up on a temp wiki page09:01
troy_saw damn it... i never made the connection between your handle and your name09:02
troy_snow it is all coming together09:02
msikmaGlossy is done? Seems to me like it's a very hot design element at the moment. Not just concerning the two other major operating systems. Or, at the very least, perhaps it isn't glossy that's "in", but rather cleanliness is.09:03
troy_smsikma:  the current design conferences are all heading towards earthy / organics09:04
n8k99yeah, I'm a clever dick huh! *_^09:04
troy_s'clean' and 'organics' aren't mutually exclusive.09:04
msikmaBut do those conferences discuss design in our context as well?09:04
troy_smsikma:  all design is influenced by outside movements.  on some level, design moves in unison.09:05
msikmaI am kind of out of touch with the design community, though. Ever since I started doing ActionScript for a living, it's just been dwindling a little.09:05
troy_scheck that link out.09:05
troy_sthat is an edit suite used in final cut09:05
troy_sthe centerpiece is a fully functional laptop09:05
troy_sconstructed entirely out of wood09:05
troy_snote the key thumbnail.09:05
troy_scnc'd machined09:06
troy_sbeautiful eh?09:06
troy_sthe laptop comes out of the center (look to the finger hole node)09:06
troy_swood aside09:06
troy_si think it is a brilliant application of organics09:06
msikmaI'll brb, my computer is incredibly slow for some reason (ran out of disk space a sec ago, just cleaned up my hard drive) and I'm going to restart09:06
troy_sthe design director initially went into it09:06
troy_swith 'make all of the futuristic tech look like 1960's soviet space program'09:07
troy_sa pretty damn interesting starting point09:07
troy_smsikma, hurry back09:07
n8k99tory_s I totally want that set up !!!09:08
n8k99erm i mean troy_s09:08
n8k99i have been struggling with the design for my workspace for the last couple of weeks09:08
n8k99i believe you have given me a really good starting point towards developing an actual station09:09
troy_serm lol09:09
troy_sto me, that organic path (**not precisely that implementation or close**)09:09
troy_s"feels" ubuntu09:09
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troy_snot to mention that it is a wonderful thing to juxtapose against an apple or microsoft computer09:10
troy_sit speaks revolution09:10
troy_sit speaks originality09:10
troy_sit speaks 'human over commodity'09:10
n8k99sort of in the manner of "the diamand age"09:10
msikmaWhat is a wonderful thing to etc.?09:10
troy_severything that ubuntu stands for.09:10
troy_smsikma -- steering into a whole new look for a technology piece09:10
n8k99very high tech with old world values for quality09:11
troy_sn8k99 totally09:11
troy_sthat sort of meet some strange mixing09:11
troy_sand pop out the future09:11
n8k99i totally ienvy the vickies for that reason09:11
troy_sunfamiliar with it.09:12
n8k99erm, group of people out of the neil stephenson novel, "the diamond age"09:12
troy_sok with you now09:12
troy_si was thinking you were referring to a movement09:12
n8k99top of the economic foodchain - very high nanotechnologist but with Victorian sensibilities09:12
n8k99well, it is in a fictional sense09:13
troy_sif art history teaches one thing, it is to note that all movements come out of a reaction against current 'stasis' and complacency09:13
troy_sfor example09:13
troy_sin music09:13
troy_swithout disco09:13
troy_swe would never had punk rock09:13
n8k99i have seen that theme in several other places09:13
troy_sthe interesting thing is that _ubuntu_ fully embodies this evolution09:13
troy_sexcept in look :)09:13
n8k99which is why i use kde and reconfigure the heck out of it myself09:14
=== n8k99 oops! did i actually type that and press enter
troy_shave you tried enlightenment?09:15
troy_sin particular e17?09:15
n8k99yes, i did both 16 & 1709:15
troy_senlightenment had the dock long before apple 'invented' it. :)09:15
troy_si think it has some serious potential for 'future' driven interfaces09:15
msikmaI love messing around with programs if they allow it, but I hardly reconfigure Ubuntu. It's because I want to keep looking at what "casual users" look at. They need to see something nice, and whether I do matters not so very much.09:15
troy_sit thinks outside the box on a number of levels, and under the grasp of a cohesive theme, it might be interesting.09:15
n8k99yeah - i ran with the star trek theme for e16 for a while09:15
troy_smsikma:  identical to me.09:15
troy_sn8k99 unfortunately all e work is pretty 'future tech' look in a very unfuture way09:16
n8k99i also enjoyed the idea that you could have an animated desktop in e1709:16
troy_sas is always the case it seems09:16
n8k99yes, its futurism from 60s09:16
troy_sn8k99 indeed... again -- very out of box modern approaches.09:16
troy_sn8k99 100% spot on!09:16
troy_stotally.  the sort of thing that someone looks at 2001 and chuckles about the tech09:17
troy_swhen compared to where it actually ended up design wise.09:17
troy_s(being 2001 a Space Odessy)09:17
n8k99right - a good film for future looks is _brazil_09:17
troy_swhat is interesting is the art direction in blade runner09:17
troy_sand brazil09:17
n8k99they did something truly authentic09:17
troy_sblade runner really hits it on point.09:17
n8k99they mixed it all up09:17
troy_swhat a great discussion09:18
n8k99so that there is not a continous theme to the look - which is the way life is09:18
troy_si very much appreciate it when art folks look to outside influences for design considerations.09:18
troy_sn8k99 i will now need to go find that criterion collection brazil to grab some screenshots09:18
msikmaThe art direction of Brazil and Blade Runner were both astonishing.09:18
n8k99i worked for ten years in film & television so it's sort of my shorthand09:19
troy_smsikma:  preaching to the choir here.09:19
msikmaI loved them.09:19
n8k99or used to be09:19
troy_sn8k99 it's where i am now :)09:19
msikmaBrazil was an amazing movie. A friend of mine studied film and keeps preaching about it easily being the best thing to have come out in the past 30 years.09:19
troy_sn8k99 i have tried to make a case that09:19
n8k99i got tired of standing on street corners for 18hrs09:19
troy_sn8k99 contemporary film / movies / television is more in line with operating systems than anything else (to mark)09:20
n8k99in the new york winter09:20
n8k99hmm.. was not aware09:20
troy_snot an easy discourse :)09:20
troy_she is _Very_ unmovable on many issues.09:20
n8k99yeah, i can see that09:21
troy_swhich is why i fear it will take _demonstrating_ the proper approach before he will have any belief in our ability as a team09:21
n8k99exactly, why i suggeest we go ahead and develop a plan and put it into real action so that we can hand it to him as a product09:22
n8k99much like any other package does09:22
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troy_sthat is _Exactly_ my thinking at this point09:23
troy_sbut i really want the immense talent from the community to get invovled in it09:23
troy_s_without_ distracting from the core development details that we must attempt to address09:24
dtamasI hate the current edgy artwork? :( Why the troy_s version has changed?09:25
n8k99i like your ubun2 project foundations and if we can form a core group around that as an additional package to be included - this will not distract from the main focus09:25
n8k99dtamas: sabfl says so09:25
n8k99dtamas: so it is so09:25
n8k99erm sabdfl the d is the important part ;)09:26
troy_sdtamas long story my friend09:26
troy_sdtamas:  to sum up:09:26
=== n8k99 truly am much less disgruntled than that may sound
troy_s1) frank schoep had little design development direction from shuttleworth, so he had to make decisions based on his own choices09:27
troy_s2) when he made the push to bzr -- the "canonical deathstar" as he calls it, fired upon him09:27
troy_s3) THEN, and ONLY then did sabdfl get involved09:27
troy_s4) sabdfl then tried to quickly get something in that was up to his liking09:27
troy_swhich is where you are currently at09:28
troy_sdtamas -- does that help?09:28
troy_salthough by all public accounts, the 'art team' failed09:28
troy_seven though it didn't really exist prior to edgy09:28
dtamastroy_s: yes. It is sad news :( Are you planning to share your version to download for the public?09:29
troy_syou can download away:09:29
troy_si attempted some polishign on it09:29
troy_suntil it became clear it was all in vain09:29
dtamasthanks :)09:30
troy_sthat has the most recent polishings to it.09:30
troy_sstill not quite there, but alas.09:30
troy_sit is too bad because msikma really had an awsome usplash for the set09:31
troy_sof course, the whole usplash target changed at the end.09:31
troy_sfor technical reasons i believe (although the ever industrious Seveas might be able to comment on this to greater detail)09:32
troy_sdtamas -- that help?09:32
troy_sis your implementation in edgy?09:32
Seveasit's not justmine, I onlymade theming possible 09:33
msikmaBy the way, why wasn't the Edgy usplash's "Ubuntu" logo text simply made white? I think that using black makes it look a little awkward.09:33
troy_smsikma:  ask sabdfl :)09:33
troy_sseveas:  too bad the animation isn't illustrated09:33
msikmaHe specifically asked for it?09:33
SeveasI like the final ubuntu usplash09:33
troy_si would like to animate msikma's and incorporate it into a working usplash09:33
troy_sbut i have no idea how the code should look09:34
troy_sSeveas yes -- i think it is better than the dapper one09:34
troy_sbut i am in a lower res09:34
troy_sand the limited colour spectrum etc that pops up makes it look a little 'thick'09:34
msikmaMaking a pointing finger cursor is difficult09:34
troy_swhite on black with thinner linework might have been a wiser...09:34
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troy_sthere he is!09:35
troy_swelcome to crap!09:35
newz2000wait, before I forget, I came in for a reason...09:35
troy_snewz2000, for those who don't know, is canonical's official web guru now09:35
msikmaWho's newz2000?09:35
msikmaWeb guru?09:35
troy_sand a bright mind09:35
troy_sto beat.09:35
troy_she is responsible for implementing the web stuffs09:35
troy_s(don't rag on him, he must obey orders)09:36
newz2000I just booted edgy and things are out of alignment on the boot up09:36
msikmaSo you're the person I can complain to when I feel that the homepage of Ubuntu goes against what the system is trying to accomplish (ideologically, not visually) by quite a large degree?09:36
troy_sall of us in artwork can appreciate that i believe.09:36
msikmaOh, I see09:36
msikmaThe homepage is something that I want to revive, too.09:36
newz2000msikma: yes09:36
troy_snewz2000 yes... they are.09:36
troy_snewz2000 I think frank is frantically trying to resolve those issues09:36
newz2000msikma: I'd love your thoughts and feedback, but don't get upset if Mark hires a local to do it.09:36
troy_snewz2000 any python scripting work going on ?  ;)09:36
troy_snewz2000 we won't get upset09:36
troy_smark will hire local to do it all09:37
newz2000not yet, not this week likely, with edgy preps09:37
troy_sfor better or for worse.09:37
newz2000so I don't need to file a bug about the boot screen?09:37
troy_snewz2000 i dont think so09:40
troy_snewz2000 i would think most people know how fecked it looks09:40
newz2000I like the logo09:40
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newz2000It would be interesting to see a chronology of the ubuntu desktops. We've gone from dark brown -> light brown -> orange -> ??? (silly putty)09:41
newz2000Still, the desktop looks nice and I'm glad to see we got something approved for edgy.09:41
troy_snewz2000 the silly putty look is purely because sab wouldn't budge on the lsplash09:41
troy_sand the rest of the bits had to follow it (or not and end up right were dapper was)09:42
troy_sit is ...09:42
msikmaThe logo has a bit too obvious bevel, I think09:42
msikmaA bevel is nice, but there's no need to use it for anything other than just defining the light source a bit better and giving an excuse for the gloss.09:42
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newz2000I like to be bold, and the monochromacity (??) was soft. Yes, elegant maybe, but this is nice and strong feeling.09:43
newz2000I'm not an artist though. :)09:43
troy_snot really elegant either09:44
=== msikma will finish his cursor theme tonight
msikmaI wonder how one packs cursors09:44
troy_su must use the cursor compiler09:44
troy_sto vert the pngs09:45
troy_sand provide a hotspot09:45
msikmaWhat's the name of that compiler?09:45
msikmaOr an09:45
msikmaor a09:45
newz2000msikma: please, share when you have time what you think about the home page. I really appreciate feedback.09:46
newz2000imbrandon: that person I mentioned contacted me and wants to help with auc. He's a php coder.09:46
msikmanewz2000: sure! I've got some ideas for it. But I'll first share why I think this current method does not work (albeit, not for the target group of Ubuntu). Or at least why _I_ think it doesn't. Nobody's ever right, afterall...09:47
msikmaBut first, tea. It's a huge rainstorm outside so that means hot beverages are required.09:47
troy_sok back to edgy for some migration... brb09:57
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nysosymhi all09:59
n8k99hi there10:02
nysosymhi n8k99 how are u?10:02
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n8k99hangin in - its late arvo and the bub is just about to go nuts10:03
n8k99i'll have to take a break soon and straighten up teh wolrd before her mum gets home10:03
n8k99nysosym: so how are you doing?10:04
nysosymhehe, im very sleepy after work and i surf a little bit in the internet :D10:04
n8k99nysosym: very nice. which side of the atlantic are you on?10:06
nysosymon the europe side of the world, in the middle of germany :D10:07
nysosymand you?10:07
n8k99the center of the universe - new york city10:07
n8k99<winky smile>10:08
nysosymhehe nice, how is the weather in new york? :D10:08
n8k99cloudy and cool - my favorite time of year10:09
nysosymsure? I love the summer, the sunshine and party :D10:09
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n8k99i only like that weather when I am 10 degrees from the equator10:11
nysosymhmm okay, and what do u doing in your freetime?10:12
n8k99play some music on my horn10:13
n8k99ride my bike10:13
n8k99and play with my daughter10:13
n8k99wait that's almost all of my time10:14
nysosymu play a horn?10:15
n8k99yeah - an old german cornet i got off ebay10:15
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troy_sn8k99: dump your thoughts onto that brainstorm10:23
n8k99ok - will have to do it in a little bit; must straighten the house/entertain the child while everything simmers in my head10:24
n8k99i'll poke at it later tonight10:24
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msikmaMaking a decent hand is terribly difficult10:53
msikmaI'm thinking of making the index finger bigger (and anatomically incorrect)10:59
BHSPitLappyI'm really good at drawing hands11:00
msikmaDo you have any tips?11:08
BHSPitLappynot really11:13
BHSPitLappyI can draw detailed hands with a pencil11:13
BHSPitLappywhat do you need to make this for?11:13
msikmaCursor theme11:25

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