[12:02] <lapo> yo
[02:00] <dtamas> The edgy artwork is finished or it will be updated soon?
[07:25] <troy_s> wholly full house
[07:26] <troy_s> greetings everyone
[07:42] <sittisal> hi troy_s
[07:43] <n8k99> hi troy_s
[07:43] <sittisal> i think that this is a chatroom were everyone of us hope a new good ubuntu's look
[07:43] <sittisal> but i think that we sohould wait for edgy+1
[07:43] <sittisal> :-P
[07:44] <n8k99> n8k99 has anyone constructed an artwork roadmap for feisty,yet?
[07:45] <sittisal> anyway... also fedora core 6 delayed echo deploymento to fedora core 7
[07:45] <sittisal> i think that echo icon theme is the most beautiful and professional icon theme for linux
[07:46] <sittisal> based on tango... looks more attractive than tango
[07:50] <sittisal> damn
[07:50] <sittisal> fucking current artwork
[07:51] <sittisal> ubuntu should be different from tiger or windows
[07:51] <sittisal> the new wallpaper is like tiger's one
[07:51] <sittisal> only brown
[08:04] <troy_s> laf
[08:04] <troy_s> artwork is not in our domain
[08:04] <troy_s> i'm afraid
[08:05] <troy_s> sabdfl has hired the fellow who designed this stunning site:  http://spacejunkdesigns.com
[08:05] <troy_s> to do the work for fiesty
[08:05] <troy_s> he is also the fellow who designed the dapper look
[08:06] <troy_s> n8k99 there was a roadmap in place for edgy, it was trumped by sabdfl.
[08:06] <troy_s> sittisal and I wouldn't be holding my breath for that 'good new ubuntu look' in edgy+1
[08:07] <troy_s> brb... dapper booting...
[08:07] <n8k99> troy_s: i realize that - I was wondering if there had been work towards planning feisty
[08:08] <n8k99> troy_s: with the hope of pleasing sabfl in plenty of time to make it in
[08:08] <sittisal> visual appearence is a must for desktop oriented os
[08:08] <n8k99> oh i see
[08:09] <n8k99> so no community efforts towards feisty?
[08:09] <sittisal> what about accepting proposal?
[08:09] <sittisal> too resctrictive
[08:10] <troy_s> not a chance
[08:10] <troy_s> the default work will all be spackjunkdesign
[08:10] <troy_s> to the best of my knowledge
[08:11] <troy_s> i believe sab intends to open the community up to submissions for 'other' areas
[08:11] <troy_s> such as cd work
[08:11] <troy_s> etc
[08:11] <n8k99> wow! that website isn't very stunning as it doesn't even load
[08:11] <troy_s> in the same vein as the spacejunkdesign
[08:11] <sittisal> great
[08:11] <troy_s> n8k99 ;)
[08:11] <sittisal> i mean this
[08:11] <troy_s> you need the new flash
[08:11] <troy_s> let me check the link n8k99
[08:12] <n8k99> won't happen as adobe does not acknowledge that people use linux on ppc
[08:12] <troy_s> well... and it is closed source
[08:12] <troy_s> so i suggest boycotting it all together
[08:13] <troy_s> it is far too limited in scope for consideration in a global web world.
[08:13] <troy_s> so basically, the artwork team will need to follow the stylings of whatever is set for feisty
[08:13] <troy_s> good on one side, bad on another.
[08:13] <n8k99> yeah - i can boycott it aall i want but my friends all youtube
[08:14] <troy_s> n8k99 well utube is now google
[08:14] <troy_s> so wait for some changes
[08:14] <troy_s> and there has been a lot of work in the open source community surrounding the open flash implementation
[08:14] <troy_s> for playing flash movies etc.
[08:14] <n8k99> yeah i'm not particularly concerned about that stuff
[08:14] <troy_s> personally, i would suggest you send well written emails to the people who provide and support such limited software.
[08:15] <troy_s> for example, the bbc was using realplayer codec to stream their global audio
[08:15] <troy_s> most of it is probably based in ignorance of options.
[08:15] <troy_s> and they generally aren't aware of the implications until people send them mail.
[08:15] <n8k99> i am disappointed about no community efforts for feisty
[08:15] <troy_s> n8k99 the community effort will still be there
[08:15] <troy_s> just not in the default look  / feel.
[08:16] <troy_s> until sabdfl lightens his grip on aesthetics, which isn't likely to happen as i doubt his mailbox is filling up with complaints, etc.
[08:16] <n8k99> i realize that - kinda hard to get full thoughts out with 1 hand (baby in lap)
[08:16] <n8k99> *_^
[08:17] <troy_s> aw congrats!
[08:17] <troy_s> boy girl?
[08:17] <n8k99> thanks, she is 18 mos
[08:17] <troy_s> aw sweetie
[08:17] <n8k99> i stay at home wit her
[08:17] <troy_s> although that is borderline 'kid' mode now :)
[08:17] <n8k99> yeah trully
[08:17] <troy_s> i guess i should probably calculate my age in months
[08:17] <troy_s> it might make for some interesting conversations
[08:17] <n8k99> check the pics if you like http://eckenrodehouse.net
[08:18] <lapo> design by community won't work
[08:18] <troy_s> i am 433 months old.
[08:18] <troy_s> lapo i disagree
[08:18] <troy_s> fundamentally
[08:18] <lapo> mark is right imho
[08:18] <troy_s> make no mistake, i think that the fine arts community has plenty to learn regarding open design / free design
[08:18] <n8k99> troy_s born in june?
[08:18] <troy_s> oct
[08:19] <n8k99> ah, may here
[08:19] <troy_s> their little heads are so squishy at that age :)
[08:19] <n8k99> so 438 months
[08:19] <troy_s> lapo:  realistically,
[08:19] <troy_s> lapo:  one cannot argue that multiple minds always will design better products
[08:19] <lapo> troy_s: you should mix other people atrwork well, but you need a finisher who make the whole package consistent
[08:20] <troy_s> lapo:  i disagree... the consistency level is largely a byproduct of skill
[08:20] <troy_s> lapo:  and in the short term, i would agree that a final 'polisher' could work to override the skills ability to bring all of the work up to a consistent level.
[08:20] <troy_s> lapo:  but as people get a feel for free design, i think their ability to fit in will increase.
[08:21] <troy_s> lapo:  just like the work on firefox -- you don't just start renegade coding... you look at the libs, you look at the code base, etc.
[08:21] <lapo> troy_s: is a loooong process to get a common style out of a group of people
[08:21] <troy_s> lapo:  that is why all products that have effective design start with a design bible
[08:21] <troy_s> it clearly outlines a full palette with goals and techniques, line work discussions, etc.
[08:22] <troy_s> makes it far easier to _start_ the race if everyone is on the same course.
[08:22] <lapo> we're barelly there with tango, because it's some time we work together (and we are few people)
[08:22] <troy_s> unfortunately, most people don't treat the fine arts as a scientific process, which is truly is.
[08:22] <troy_s> lapo:  possibly started out too loose
[08:22] <troy_s> lapo:  for example, before you shoot a single frame of film for a television series, you spend a good while designing the bible
[08:22] <troy_s> which can be a massive tome
[08:23] <troy_s> same thing with something like a video game
[08:23] <troy_s> you have a design document
[08:23] <troy_s> you _do not_ just start 'desgining'
[08:23] <lapo> that's right the directions mark gave you were to way too vague
[08:23] <troy_s> you can do that during your brainstorm.
[08:23] <troy_s> lapo:  yep
[08:23] <troy_s> i _tried_ to milk his aesthetic out, but he is far too resistant
[08:23] <troy_s> msikma!  good to see you friend.
[08:24] <troy_s> the reality is that community based free design _cannot_ operate functionally until it is attacked in the same professional manner as all other projects.
[08:24] <troy_s> for example,
[08:24] <troy_s> look at vista's guidelines:
[08:24] <lapo> troy_s: mark directing an artwork team is like lapo doing software architecture work :-)
[08:24] <msikma> Hi troy_s
[08:24] <troy_s> lapo:  100% agreement from me
[08:24] <n8k99> so, my question is: why do we not have an actual construction of a design bible and follow a true production roadmap?
[08:24] <msikma> How's things?
[08:24] <lapo> yo msikma
[08:24] <troy_s> n8k99 because there is NO look for ubuntu
[08:24] <troy_s> design is visual literacy
[08:24] <troy_s> meaning it should COMMUNICATE
[08:24] <troy_s> and ubuntu's visuals communicate NOTHING
[08:24] <n8k99> why not?
[08:25] <troy_s> medium grey
[08:25] <msikma> troy_s: nice to see things I agree with being said right as I join the channel
[08:25] <lapo> very right
[08:25] <troy_s> a) no motifs
[08:25] <troy_s> b) no palette structure (although on a smaller battlefield i think we won this in edgy)
[08:25] <msikma> my computer is incredibly slow right now since I have 136 KB free space, urgh. brb.
[08:25] <troy_s> albeit monochrome hell.
[08:25] <troy_s> c) no keywords
[08:25] <troy_s> c -- for example (Human, Community, etc)
[08:26] <lapo> so true
[08:26] <troy_s> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/?url=/library/en-us/UxGuide/UXGuide/Home.asp
[08:26] <lapo> no team work
[08:26] <lapo> I'd add
[08:26] <troy_s> i have read probably 100 design and art books since i graduated from art school
[08:26] <troy_s> and ubuntu defies _every_ single element
[08:26] <troy_s> well the team work needs to be worked at
[08:26] <troy_s> we are a fresh team
[08:26] <troy_s> and we all need to learn
[08:26] <troy_s> everyone puts their hands up in the air and says 'it will never work'
[08:27] <n8k99> right - what i am asking is why do these things which we do not have, do not get implimentedunless sabfl does not want them?
[08:27] <troy_s> instead of truly trying
[08:27] <troy_s> n8k99 i think sabdfl simply doesn't understand
[08:27] <troy_s> he is a very bright guy
[08:27] <troy_s> with a wonderful vision
[08:27] <troy_s> but regarding aesthetics, i think he really needs to hire a firm and have these elements _forced_ upon him
[08:27] <troy_s> not some renegade solo guy
[08:28] <troy_s> solo works _always_ appear to work better because ONE mind internally bears the consistency
[08:28] <troy_s> however, that is not true design
[08:28] <msikma> There's something that I'd like to add. I noticed that the widgets of LegacyHuman were changed (and visually broken) since I upgraded to 6.10. It made me realize that this project's artwork, in the open source spirit, is constantly adapting even though it's sometimes simply a much better idea to leave something as it is, as I feel stability is an extremely important thing that the open source community simply never pays attention to.
[08:28] <troy_s> read _anything_ about apple's Ive's work
[08:28] <troy_s> or any serious design movement such as bahaus
[08:28] <troy_s> etc.
[08:28] <troy_s> msikma:  i agree... if we could build in small ways
[08:28] <msikma> I was thinking of saying some other things in this conversation but it's not really necessary anymore, reading the past screen.
[08:28] <troy_s> for example,
[08:29] <troy_s> i was hoping that we could get some 'motifs' in place so that every release we could change them
[08:29] <troy_s> for example
[08:29] <troy_s> if we had a true colour palette
[08:29] <n8k99> bug 67548
[08:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 67548 in legacyhuman-theme "LegacyHuman controls/widgets visually broken" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67548
[08:29] <troy_s> we could use say, three colours that are used to visually 'mark' the release
[08:29] <msikma> indeed, n8k99
[08:29] <troy_s> in a particular motif
[08:29] <troy_s> etc
[08:29] <troy_s> but all of this is for naught as mark's opinion regarding this is unmovable.
[08:30] <lapo> yep
[08:30] <lapo> so true
[08:30] <troy_s> further, i take an offense at the 'official' take that the artwork team failed
[08:30] <troy_s> we had a schedule
[08:30] <n8k99> troy_s it appears that the answer I was seeking is "because mark says so"
[08:30] <troy_s> we had a clearly outlined process
[08:30] <troy_s> n8k99 now you are getting closer to the money
[08:30] <troy_s> we had as much structure that was needed (i implemented an almost identical structure at blackbox games for camera work)
[08:30] <n8k99> troy_s which makes me want to dislist myself from anything art
[08:31] <troy_s> (on some need for speed contract work)
[08:31] <troy_s> well no
[08:31] <troy_s> it is exactly that that will let the issue rest
[08:31] <troy_s> we must remain strong
[08:31] <troy_s> and keep our massive progress together
[08:31] <troy_s> we will have setbacks, and the reality is that _any_ project worth anything will have creative conflict
[08:31] <troy_s> (just ask msikma and myself)
[08:32] <troy_s> we must keep the creative conflict going, but the team should still be unified.
[08:32] <lapo> troy_s: mark is in hid right "dictating" about the arwork in ubuntu, the problem is that he is not the right man for such a job, so the whole thing is ill-fated imho
[08:32] <troy_s> lapo:  for the now, i might agree.
[08:32] <msikma> I do think that Mark cares about art.
[08:32] <troy_s> msikma:  agree 100%
[08:32] <n8k99> well, in that case - i'd really like it if we set about putting a true design process in place so that we can turn out a consistent product with one month to spare on feist
[08:32] <troy_s> he is not a dummy
[08:32] <n8k99> y
[08:32] <lapo> msikma: he cares, but he has no artistic eyes
[08:32] <troy_s> well... first thing first
[08:33] <msikma> Simply put, he cares about it enough to not want to make any huge changes unless he is _fully_ confident in them.
[08:33] <troy_s> what we need to do is stay together as a team
[08:33] <troy_s> and let him do what he does.
[08:33] <lapo> he is surelly a brulliant guy, but artistically speaking he is not
[08:33] <troy_s> he is a ++terrific++ leader.
[08:33] <lapo> that very true
[08:33] <troy_s> that said, we must keep level heads and perhaps form a theme team
[08:33] <troy_s> where ALL of the folks who have expertise
[08:33] <n8k99> troy_s right_ that is why i suggest that we put together a design plan
[08:33] <troy_s> such as lapo and andreasn etc.
[08:34] <troy_s> n8k99 did you see the design plan that was in place for edgy?
[08:34] <troy_s> ;)
[08:34] <n8k99> troy_s i did - i am talking about one that is as specific as you have been discussing
[08:34] <lapo> troy_s: I cannot really work on something I disagree with (that my hobby, not my work :-)) and the guidelines mark gave are totally wrong imho
[08:34] <msikma> troy_s: regarding the discussion above, I think it would be wise to call in some sort of a meeting concerning the planning for the next release.
[08:34] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/backup
[08:34] <troy_s> msikma:  i think that would be great
[08:34] <troy_s> but i don't want to appear as though we are trying to 'redirect' the talent pool
[08:34] <msikma> What's it called? feisty fawn?
[08:35] <troy_s> i want everyone to really try and keep pushing ubuntu forwards in little ways
[08:35] <troy_s> for example, fixing smaller icon issues
[08:35] <troy_s> etc.
[08:35] <msikma> Maybe even set up a separate mailing list specifically for red tape purposes.
[08:35] <troy_s> while at the same time,
[08:35] <troy_s> _collaboratively_ working together to design a bible
[08:35] <n8k99> troy_s what do you mean 'redirect'?
[08:35] <troy_s> to start building from
[08:35] <troy_s> n8k99 we run the risk of appearing like disgrunteled employees and 'doing our own thing'
[08:35] <lapo> troy_s: I don't want to offend anyone here, but human icon theme is a mess
[08:36] <troy_s> what i would like in an ideal world is to take _all_
[08:36] <troy_s> lapo:  you won't find anyone disagreeing with you here lapo i think
[08:36] <lapo> troy_s: ubuntu should follow the gnome path (as kubuntu does, for example) so tango style
[08:36] <troy_s> lapo:  it is missing motifs, styles, etc.
[08:36] <troy_s> lapo:  well i think a look should be distinct on that front
[08:36] <troy_s> lapo:  a custom icon set is the foundation for a distinct operating system
[08:36] <troy_s> lapo:  but namespaces and such that tango has set forth should be abided by
[08:36] <msikma> troy_s: it should be argued, though, that this is a Linux distro aimed at non-Linux users.
[08:37] <troy_s> msikma:  100% agree
[08:37] <lapo> troy_s: you can have a distinct icon set following tango guidelines, as a lot of linux application are doing
[08:37] <troy_s> lapo:  then perhaps we are in agreement
[08:37] <troy_s> as soon as i see tango i immediately (and wrongly) knee jerk into visualing the tango theme
[08:37] <msikma> They don't care that Bougainvillea Linux 1.5 or whatever other distros there are also have Tango. But that's beside the point, since I don't feel like touching the icon issue for some time.
[08:37] <troy_s> i am all for supporting the hard work jimmac has put in getting standards in place etc.
[08:38] <lapo> yep, and the standards for tango are working nicely
[08:38] <troy_s> fundamentally though, i would say that the icon look should be a part of the overall look
[08:38] <lapo> there's even a community around it, which works!
[08:38] <lapo> sure
[08:38] <troy_s> lapo:  indeed.  that said i would say that the consistency factor still needs resolution -- again probably a byproduct of not having a design bible.
[08:38] <lapo> the overall look should be tango style imho
[08:39] <troy_s> the design bible for icons should be deadly specific regarding two point perspective angles and distance, etc.
[08:39] <lapo> troy_s: you cannot really reach consistency w/o going tango style for the icons for example, you cannot have enough man power to redo all the icons
[08:39] <msikma> Tango look isn't perfect either. Tango actually has very little to do with what I believe would be specifically Ubuntu.
[08:39] <troy_s> indeed.
[08:39] <troy_s> i agree with msikma here.
[08:39] <troy_s> lapo:  if we truly do real work here
[08:39] <lapo> what is tango look for you
[08:39] <troy_s> and work from paper sketch
[08:40] <lapo> ?
[08:40] <troy_s> an _entire_ icon set could be developed in a month
[08:40] <troy_s> easily
[08:40] <troy_s> leaving many more for polishing etc.
[08:40] <lapo> troy_s: noway
[08:40] <msikma> Sure it can.
[08:40] <troy_s> if we have a clear design bible
[08:40] <troy_s> a clear set of looks
[08:40] <msikma> Make one icon per day and see how far you can get!
[08:40] <n8k99> troy_s exactly
[08:40] <troy_s> a clear way of discarding completely out of line images
[08:40] <msikma> Then do that with five people.
[08:40] <lapo> msikma: only ooo will take at least 3 montht
[08:40] <troy_s> I personally could do it in a month
[08:40] <n8k99> no that! a plan!
[08:41] <troy_s> not a chance
[08:41] <troy_s> lapo:  have you seen some of the work in gant?
[08:41] <troy_s> this guy has churned out about 600 high quality icons
[08:41] <troy_s> he has a singular vision
[08:41] <msikma> In less than a month, you'll have maybe about 40% of the entire icon range done, but here's the thing: only 10% of the time that you use the system will you come across the other 60%.
[08:41] <troy_s> which is what a bible attacks
[08:41] <troy_s> a plan
[08:41] <lapo> troy_s: nope, but I know how much time jimmac (which is uber fast) needs to do an icon
[08:41] <troy_s> miskma:  and polish
[08:41] <troy_s> lapo:  i am saying get the BROAD strokes in place
[08:41] <troy_s> and polish based on visibility of icons
[08:41] <lapo> troy_s: I am a slow picky bastard, but jimmac is light speed :-)
[08:42] <troy_s> meaning ONCE the icon is in place
[08:42] <troy_s> POLISH it
[08:42] <troy_s> as we can
[08:42] <n8k99> icons desinged per the bible in one month, several months to polish and finish
[08:42] <troy_s> perhaps we run with only svg monochrome line work to start
[08:42] <lapo> troy_s: yes but you still have to polish omething like 300 or more icons
[08:42] <troy_s> n8k99 bingo
[08:42] <troy_s> lapo:  well remember
[08:42] <troy_s> an icon exists on a much smaller scale than wallapper
[08:42] <n8k99> film porcess: rehearsal, light, shoot
[08:42] <troy_s> if you use the 'forest through trees' mentality
[08:42] <n8k99> process
[08:42] <troy_s> n8k99 bingo
[08:42] <msikma> There's an illustrator at work who makes awesome things. He works in Illustrator, he never uses layers, he never uses shortcut keys for the tools, he never uses algorithms to generate art or perform certain effects, but he works so incredibly fast.
[08:43] <troy_s> n8k99 brainstorm, set guidelines, build bible, set teams for creating elements
[08:43] <troy_s> msikma:  bingo
[08:43] <troy_s> true artists don't worry about tools
[08:43] <troy_s> in fact, many of the guys i know who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars at art
[08:43] <troy_s> take restrictions as creative challenges
[08:43] <troy_s> 'what can you do with this box of toothpicks and black ink?'
[08:44] <troy_s> ;)
[08:44] <troy_s> i think we can do it
[08:44] <troy_s> my only concern
[08:44] <msikma> Can you run Flash yet? You can find his work under Illustration > Mr. Feaver (http://www.shop-around.nl/)
[08:44] <n8k99> had an art teacher once make us paint small picture with giant brush
[08:44] <troy_s> n8k99: awsome.
[08:44] <n8k99> then next project was giant painting with tiny detail brush
[08:44] <troy_s> i did the same sort of project for some photography work, we had to use only three shapes -- a cube a pyramid and a sphere with no background and one light
[08:45] <troy_s> similar tasks
[08:45] <troy_s> there is a _terrific_ design book called visual literacy i believe
[08:45] <troy_s> that has a hundred of those projects
[08:45] <troy_s> how to communicate 'unity' with six black squares all of the same shape etc.
[08:45] <lapo> nice chat guys, have to go, later
[08:45] <troy_s> msikma, yah i am on dapper and have a 32 bit firefox
[08:45] <troy_s> let me look
[08:46] <troy_s> anyways, i think it is well worthwhile getting the brainstorming going
[08:46] <troy_s> further, because we wouldn't be tied to the ubuntu release cycle
[08:46] <n8k99> keywords?
[08:46] <troy_s> we only need to proceed once everyone is relatively
[08:46] <troy_s> happy.
[08:46] <troy_s> register your nickname n8k99
[08:46] <troy_s> "/msg nickserv register PASSWORD"
[08:46] <n8k99> i did
[08:47] <n8k99> yeah - i already have
[08:47] <troy_s> it was me:)
[08:47] <troy_s> i changed my pass
[08:47] <troy_s> sorry for my ignorance
[08:49] <n8k99> np
[08:49] <n8k99> i had to start Blue's Clues on the mac mini to get some space!!
[08:50] <troy_s> wow
[08:50] <troy_s> msikma
[08:50] <troy_s> great stuff at that link
[08:50] <msikma> Do you like it?
[08:50] <troy_s> amazing artist
[08:50] <troy_s> yes i really do
[08:50] <troy_s> i love it.
[08:50] <troy_s> i always head straight to illustration
[08:50] <msikma> That's the Shop Around. It's not where I work, but it's right above us at the office building. The two companies go way back, and most of our work comes from them.
[08:51] <troy_s> because i find that is the one area you can't fake easily :)
[08:51] <msikma> Hehe yeah
[08:51] <troy_s> the original stylized stuff is amazing
[08:51] <msikma> They're kind of like an agency for designers and the likes of. They have a database with people. So that's why they're the "design supermarket".
[08:51] <msikma> You go there and shop for an artist.
[08:52] <troy_s> aneurin wright is pretty incredible
[08:52] <troy_s> angelique houtcamp
[08:52] <troy_s> love her style
[08:53] <troy_s> erik kreiks work is good too.
[08:53] <msikma> Anouk Griffioen used to be my teacher for a year
[08:54] <troy_s> let me look
[08:54] <msikma> Then suddenly when I went to get coffee I saw her sitting at shop around :P
[08:54] <troy_s> very mimetic
[08:54] <msikma> I didn't learn much, though. The school was terrible. We only had a few lessons.
[08:54] <troy_s> not my alley.
[08:54] <troy_s> msikma:  it can largely depend on the type of art school you go to.
[08:54] <troy_s> msikma:  for example, the school that i got my bfa from was largely avant-garde, which was really eye opening.
[08:55] <msikma> I actually don't understand why they put only that work of her up. She's got other stuff too which is a bit less abstract.
[08:55] <troy_s> more abstract?
[08:55] <troy_s> the work there of hers is rather like photography
[08:56] <troy_s> i would rather see something more stylized.
[08:56] <msikma> Well, maybe abstract isn't the right word.
[08:57] <troy_s> toko's work is quite good in the design category
[08:57] <troy_s> bold.
[08:57] <troy_s> interesting stuff there to say the least
[08:59] <troy_s> i love angeliques and aneurin's work
[08:59] <n8k99> i am very interested in the prospect of setting a theme/unified look/feel without all the plasticy/glossy stuff
[09:00] <troy_s> plastic and glossy is
[09:00] <troy_s> _done_
[09:00] <troy_s> very dated
[09:00] <troy_s> in my opinion
[09:00] <n8k99> but to make it alll look as if it is handmade by 19th centruy craftsmen
[09:00] <n8k99> your know germany toymakers
[09:00] <troy_s> i was discussing this with an art director in town
[09:00] <troy_s> _totally_
[09:00] <troy_s> i simply love that idea
[09:00] <troy_s> very 'value'
[09:00] <troy_s> not cranked out by a plastic mould making machine
[09:00] <n8k99> right
[09:00] <troy_s> what is your email address n8k:?
[09:01] <troy_s> here let me put them on the wiki
[09:01] <troy_s> check this out... truly might blow you away
[09:01] <troy_s> this is robin william's computer from the final cut
[09:01] <troy_s> i know the art director
[09:01] <troy_s> who did that film
[09:01] <troy_s> let me put it up on a temp wiki page
[09:02] <n8k99> https://launchpad.net/people/nathaneckenrode
[09:02] <troy_s> aw damn it... i never made the connection between your handle and your name
[09:02] <troy_s> now it is all coming together
[09:03] <msikma> Glossy is done? Seems to me like it's a very hot design element at the moment. Not just concerning the two other major operating systems. Or, at the very least, perhaps it isn't glossy that's "in", but rather cleanliness is.
[09:04] <troy_s> msikma:  the current design conferences are all heading towards earthy / organics
[09:04] <n8k99> yeah, I'm a clever dick huh! *_^
[09:04] <troy_s> 'clean' and 'organics' aren't mutually exclusive.
[09:04] <msikma> But do those conferences discuss design in our context as well?
[09:05] <troy_s> msikma:  all design is influenced by outside movements.  on some level, design moves in unison.
[09:05] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/fc
[09:05] <msikma> I am kind of out of touch with the design community, though. Ever since I started doing ActionScript for a living, it's just been dwindling a little.
[09:05] <troy_s> check that link out.
[09:05] <troy_s> that is an edit suite used in final cut
[09:05] <troy_s> the centerpiece is a fully functional laptop
[09:05] <troy_s> constructed entirely out of wood
[09:05] <msikma> hehehe
[09:05] <msikma> awesome
[09:05] <troy_s> note the key thumbnail.
[09:06] <troy_s> cnc'd machined
[09:06] <troy_s> beautiful eh?
[09:06] <troy_s> the laptop comes out of the center (look to the finger hole node)
[09:06] <troy_s> wood aside
[09:06] <troy_s> i think it is a brilliant application of organics
[09:06] <msikma> I'll brb, my computer is incredibly slow for some reason (ran out of disk space a sec ago, just cleaned up my hard drive) and I'm going to restart
[09:06] <troy_s> the design director initially went into it
[09:07] <troy_s> with 'make all of the futuristic tech look like 1960's soviet space program'
[09:07] <troy_s> a pretty damn interesting starting point
[09:07] <troy_s> msikma, hurry back
[09:07] <msikma> yeah
[09:07] <msikma> :P
[09:08] <n8k99> tory_s I totally want that set up !!!
[09:08] <n8k99> erm i mean troy_s
[09:08] <n8k99> i have been struggling with the design for my workspace for the last couple of weeks
[09:09] <n8k99> i believe you have given me a really good starting point towards developing an actual station
[09:09] <troy_s> laf
[09:09] <troy_s> erm lol
[09:09] <troy_s> to me, that organic path (**not precisely that implementation or close**)
[09:09] <troy_s> "feels" ubuntu
[09:10] <troy_s> not to mention that it is a wonderful thing to juxtapose against an apple or microsoft computer
[09:10] <troy_s> it speaks revolution
[09:10] <n8k99> yes
[09:10] <troy_s> it speaks originality
[09:10] <troy_s> it speaks 'human over commodity'
[09:10] <troy_s> etc.
[09:10] <n8k99> sort of in the manner of "the diamand age"
[09:10] <msikma> What is a wonderful thing to etc.?
[09:10] <troy_s> everything that ubuntu stands for.
[09:10] <troy_s> msikma -- steering into a whole new look for a technology piece
[09:11] <n8k99> very high tech with old world values for quality
[09:11] <troy_s> n8k99 totally
[09:11] <troy_s> that sort of meet some strange mixing
[09:11] <troy_s> and pop out the future
[09:11] <n8k99> i totally ienvy the vickies for that reason
[09:11] <troy_s> vickies?
[09:12] <troy_s> unfamiliar with it.
[09:12] <n8k99> erm, group of people out of the neil stephenson novel, "the diamond age"
[09:12] <troy_s> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[09:12] <troy_s> ok with you now
[09:12] <troy_s> i was thinking you were referring to a movement
[09:12] <troy_s> lol
[09:12] <n8k99> top of the economic foodchain - very high nanotechnologist but with Victorian sensibilities
[09:13] <n8k99> well, it is in a fictional sense
[09:13] <troy_s> if art history teaches one thing, it is to note that all movements come out of a reaction against current 'stasis' and complacency
[09:13] <troy_s> for example
[09:13] <troy_s> in music
[09:13] <troy_s> without disco
[09:13] <troy_s> we would never had punk rock
[09:13] <troy_s> ;)
[09:13] <n8k99> i have seen that theme in several other places
[09:13] <n8k99> recently
[09:13] <troy_s> the interesting thing is that _ubuntu_ fully embodies this evolution
[09:13] <troy_s> except in look :)
[09:13] <n8k99> right!
[09:14] <n8k99> which is why i use kde and reconfigure the heck out of it myself
[09:14] <troy_s> laf
[09:15] <troy_s> have you tried enlightenment?
[09:15] <troy_s> in particular e17?
[09:15] <n8k99> yes, i did both 16 & 17
[09:15] <troy_s> enlightenment had the dock long before apple 'invented' it. :)
[09:15] <troy_s> i think it has some serious potential for 'future' driven interfaces
[09:15] <msikma> I love messing around with programs if they allow it, but I hardly reconfigure Ubuntu. It's because I want to keep looking at what "casual users" look at. They need to see something nice, and whether I do matters not so very much.
[09:15] <troy_s> it thinks outside the box on a number of levels, and under the grasp of a cohesive theme, it might be interesting.
[09:15] <n8k99> yeah - i ran with the star trek theme for e16 for a while
[09:15] <troy_s> msikma:  identical to me.
[09:16] <troy_s> n8k99 unfortunately all e work is pretty 'future tech' look in a very unfuture way
[09:16] <n8k99> i also enjoyed the idea that you could have an animated desktop in e17
[09:16] <troy_s> as is always the case it seems
[09:16] <n8k99> yes, its futurism from 60s
[09:16] <troy_s> n8k99 indeed... again -- very out of box modern approaches.
[09:16] <troy_s> n8k99 100% spot on!
[09:17] <troy_s> totally.  the sort of thing that someone looks at 2001 and chuckles about the tech
[09:17] <troy_s> when compared to where it actually ended up design wise.
[09:17] <troy_s> (being 2001 a Space Odessy)
[09:17] <n8k99> right - a good film for future looks is _brazil_
[09:17] <troy_s> what is interesting is the art direction in blade runner
[09:17] <troy_s> yep
[09:17] <troy_s> and brazil
[09:17] <n8k99> they did something truly authentic
[09:17] <troy_s> blade runner really hits it on point.
[09:17] <n8k99> they mixed it all up
[09:18] <troy_s> what a great discussion
[09:18] <n8k99> so that there is not a continous theme to the look - which is the way life is
[09:18] <troy_s> i very much appreciate it when art folks look to outside influences for design considerations.
[09:18] <troy_s> n8k99 i will now need to go find that criterion collection brazil to grab some screenshots
[09:18] <msikma> The art direction of Brazil and Blade Runner were both astonishing.
[09:19] <n8k99> i worked for ten years in film & television so it's sort of my shorthand
[09:19] <troy_s> msikma:  preaching to the choir here.
[09:19] <msikma> I loved them.
[09:19] <n8k99> or used to be
[09:19] <troy_s> n8k99 it's where i am now :)
[09:19] <msikma> Brazil was an amazing movie. A friend of mine studied film and keeps preaching about it easily being the best thing to have come out in the past 30 years.
[09:19] <troy_s> n8k99 i have tried to make a case that
[09:19] <n8k99> i got tired of standing on street corners for 18hrs
[09:20] <troy_s> n8k99 contemporary film / movies / television is more in line with operating systems than anything else (to mark)
[09:20] <n8k99> in the new york winter
[09:20] <n8k99> really?
[09:20] <troy_s> yes
[09:20] <n8k99> hmm.. was not aware
[09:20] <troy_s> not an easy discourse :)
[09:20] <troy_s> he is _Very_ unmovable on many issues.
[09:21] <n8k99> yeah, i can see that
[09:21] <troy_s> which is why i fear it will take _demonstrating_ the proper approach before he will have any belief in our ability as a team
[09:22] <n8k99> exactly, why i suggeest we go ahead and develop a plan and put it into real action so that we can hand it to him as a product
[09:22] <n8k99> much like any other package does
[09:23] <troy_s> totally
[09:23] <troy_s> that is _Exactly_ my thinking at this point
[09:23] <troy_s> but i really want the immense talent from the community to get invovled in it
[09:24] <n8k99> naturally
[09:24] <troy_s> _without_ distracting from the core development details that we must attempt to address
[09:25] <dtamas> I hate the current edgy artwork? :( Why the troy_s version has changed?
[09:25] <n8k99> i like your ubun2 project foundations and if we can form a core group around that as an additional package to be included - this will not distract from the main focus
[09:25] <n8k99> dtamas: sabfl says so
[09:25] <n8k99> dtamas: so it is so
[09:26] <n8k99> erm sabdfl the d is the important part ;)
[09:26] <troy_s> dtamas long story my friend
[09:26] <troy_s> dtamas:  to sum up:
[09:27] <troy_s> 1) frank schoep had little design development direction from shuttleworth, so he had to make decisions based on his own choices
[09:27] <troy_s> 2) when he made the push to bzr -- the "canonical deathstar" as he calls it, fired upon him
[09:27] <troy_s> 3) THEN, and ONLY then did sabdfl get involved
[09:27] <troy_s> 4) sabdfl then tried to quickly get something in that was up to his liking
[09:28] <troy_s> which is where you are currently at
[09:28] <troy_s> dtamas -- does that help?
[09:28] <troy_s> although by all public accounts, the 'art team' failed
[09:28] <troy_s> even though it didn't really exist prior to edgy
[09:29] <dtamas> troy_s: yes. It is sad news :( Are you planning to share your version to download for the public?
[09:29] <troy_s> you can download away:
[09:29] <troy_s> i attempted some polishign on it
[09:29] <troy_s> until it became clear it was all in vain
[09:30] <dtamas> thanks :)
[09:30] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/CurrentDefault
[09:30] <troy_s> that has the most recent polishings to it.
[09:30] <troy_s> still not quite there, but alas.
[09:31] <troy_s> it is too bad because msikma really had an awsome usplash for the set
[09:31] <troy_s> of course, the whole usplash target changed at the end.
[09:32] <troy_s> for technical reasons i believe (although the ever industrious Seveas might be able to comment on this to greater detail)
[09:32] <troy_s> dtamas -- that help?
[09:32] <Seveas> ?
[09:32] <troy_s> usplash
[09:32] <troy_s> is your implementation in edgy?
[09:33] <Seveas> it's not justmine, I onlymade theming possible 
[09:33] <msikma> By the way, why wasn't the Edgy usplash's "Ubuntu" logo text simply made white? I think that using black makes it look a little awkward.
[09:33] <troy_s> msikma:  ask sabdfl :)
[09:33] <troy_s> seveas:  too bad the animation isn't illustrated
[09:33] <msikma> He specifically asked for it?
[09:33] <Seveas> I like the final ubuntu usplash
[09:33] <troy_s> i would like to animate msikma's and incorporate it into a working usplash
[09:34] <troy_s> but i have no idea how the code should look
[09:34] <troy_s> Seveas yes -- i think it is better than the dapper one
[09:34] <troy_s> but i am in a lower res
[09:34] <troy_s> and the limited colour spectrum etc that pops up makes it look a little 'thick'
[09:34] <msikma> Making a pointing finger cursor is difficult
[09:34] <troy_s> white on black with thinner linework might have been a wiser...
[09:34] <troy_s> alas
[09:35] <troy_s> there he is!
[09:35] <msikma> indeed
[09:35] <troy_s> newz2000
[09:35] <troy_s> !
[09:35] <newz2000> crap
[09:35] <troy_s> welcome to crap!
[09:35] <newz2000> wait, before I forget, I came in for a reason...
[09:35] <troy_s> newz2000, for those who don't know, is canonical's official web guru now
[09:35] <msikma> Who's newz2000?
[09:35] <msikma> Ohhh
[09:35] <msikma> Web guru?
[09:35] <troy_s> and a bright mind
[09:35] <troy_s> to beat.
[09:35] <troy_s> indeed.
[09:35] <newz2000> :D
[09:35] <troy_s> he is responsible for implementing the web stuffs
[09:36] <troy_s> (don't rag on him, he must obey orders)
[09:36] <troy_s> :)
[09:36] <newz2000> I just booted edgy and things are out of alignment on the boot up
[09:36] <msikma> So you're the person I can complain to when I feel that the homepage of Ubuntu goes against what the system is trying to accomplish (ideologically, not visually) by quite a large degree?
[09:36] <troy_s> all of us in artwork can appreciate that i believe.
[09:36] <msikma> Oh, I see
[09:36] <msikma> The homepage is something that I want to revive, too.
[09:36] <newz2000> msikma: yes
[09:36] <troy_s> newz2000 yes... they are.
[09:36] <troy_s> newz2000 I think frank is frantically trying to resolve those issues
[09:36] <newz2000> msikma: I'd love your thoughts and feedback, but don't get upset if Mark hires a local to do it.
[09:36] <troy_s> newz2000 any python scripting work going on ?  ;)
[09:36] <troy_s> newz2000 we won't get upset
[09:37] <troy_s> mark will hire local to do it all
[09:37] <newz2000> not yet, not this week likely, with edgy preps
[09:37] <troy_s> for better or for worse.
[09:37] <newz2000> so I don't need to file a bug about the boot screen?
[09:40] <troy_s> newz2000 i dont think so
[09:40] <troy_s> newz2000 i would think most people know how fecked it looks
[09:40] <newz2000> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/tmp/Screenshot-Vmware-boot.png
[09:40] <newz2000> I like the logo
[09:41] <newz2000> It would be interesting to see a chronology of the ubuntu desktops. We've gone from dark brown -> light brown -> orange -> ??? (silly putty)
[09:41] <newz2000> Still, the desktop looks nice and I'm glad to see we got something approved for edgy.
[09:41] <troy_s> newz2000 the silly putty look is purely because sab wouldn't budge on the lsplash
[09:42] <troy_s> and the rest of the bits had to follow it (or not and end up right were dapper was)
[09:42] <troy_s> it is ...
[09:42] <msikma> The logo has a bit too obvious bevel, I think
[09:42] <msikma> A bevel is nice, but there's no need to use it for anything other than just defining the light source a bit better and giving an excuse for the gloss.
[09:43] <newz2000> I like to be bold, and the monochromacity (??) was soft. Yes, elegant maybe, but this is nice and strong feeling.
[09:43] <newz2000> I'm not an artist though. :)
[09:44] <troy_s> not really elegant either
[09:44] <troy_s> monochrome
[09:44] <msikma> I wonder how one packs cursors
[09:44] <troy_s> u must use the cursor compiler
[09:45] <troy_s> to vert the pngs
[09:45] <troy_s> and provide a hotspot
[09:45] <msikma> What's the name of that compiler?
[09:45] <msikma> Or an
[09:45] <msikma> or a
[09:46] <newz2000> msikma: please, share when you have time what you think about the home page. I really appreciate feedback.
[09:46] <newz2000> imbrandon: that person I mentioned contacted me and wants to help with auc. He's a php coder.
[09:47] <msikma> newz2000: sure! I've got some ideas for it. But I'll first share why I think this current method does not work (albeit, not for the target group of Ubuntu). Or at least why _I_ think it doesn't. Nobody's ever right, afterall...
[09:47] <msikma> But first, tea. It's a huge rainstorm outside so that means hot beverages are required.
[09:57] <troy_s> ok back to edgy for some migration... brb
[09:59] <nysosym> hi all
[10:02] <n8k99> hi there
[10:02] <nysosym> hi n8k99 how are u?
[10:03] <n8k99> hangin in - its late arvo and the bub is just about to go nuts
[10:03] <n8k99> i'll have to take a break soon and straighten up teh wolrd before her mum gets home
[10:03] <n8k99> ^_^
[10:04] <n8k99> nysosym: so how are you doing?
[10:04] <nysosym> hehe, im very sleepy after work and i surf a little bit in the internet :D
[10:06] <n8k99> nysosym: very nice. which side of the atlantic are you on?
[10:07] <nysosym> on the europe side of the world, in the middle of germany :D
[10:07] <nysosym> and you?
[10:07] <n8k99> the center of the universe - new york city
[10:08] <n8k99> <winky smile>
[10:08] <nysosym> hehe nice, how is the weather in new york? :D
[10:09] <n8k99> cloudy and cool - my favorite time of year
[10:09] <nysosym> sure? I love the summer, the sunshine and party :D
[10:11] <n8k99> i only like that weather when I am 10 degrees from the equator
[10:12] <nysosym> hmm okay, and what do u doing in your freetime?
[10:13] <n8k99> play some music on my horn
[10:13] <n8k99> ride my bike
[10:13] <n8k99> and play with my daughter
[10:14] <n8k99> wait that's almost all of my time
[10:15] <nysosym> horn?
[10:15] <nysosym> u play a horn?
[10:15] <n8k99> yeah - an old german cornet i got off ebay
[10:23] <troy_s> n8k99: dump your thoughts onto that brainstorm
[10:24] <n8k99> ok - will have to do it in a little bit; must straighten the house/entertain the child while everything simmers in my head
[10:24] <n8k99> i'll poke at it later tonight
[10:53] <msikma> Making a decent hand is terribly difficult
[10:54] <msikma> http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/hand_draft.png
[10:59] <msikma> I'm thinking of making the index finger bigger (and anatomically incorrect)
[11:00] <BHSPitLappy> I'm really good at drawing hands
[11:08] <msikma> Do you have any tips?
[11:13] <BHSPitLappy> not really
[11:13] <BHSPitLappy> I can draw detailed hands with a pencil
[11:13] <BHSPitLappy> what do you need to make this for?
[11:25] <msikma> Cursor theme