=== AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-b8418385dca1b3bb] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-b8418385dca1b3bb] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-2bcd830b80131f7e] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Viper550 [n=Viper550@d57-121-167.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Viper550 [n=Viper550@d57-121-167.home.cgocable.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Just] === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-9e8160ccdef085d7] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-9e8160ccdef085d7] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-74bf330915ac2553] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B679.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nysosym [n=nysosym@p54B7B679.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-bca342b7d348f63b] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === AndyFitz [i=AndyFitz@nat/redhat/x-bca342b7d348f63b] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === fschoep [n=franksch@adsl-dc-35cb8.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === effraie [n=effraie@jem75-1-82-228-146-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === fschoep [n=franksch@adsl-dc-35cb8.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === fschoep_ [n=franksch@adsl-dc-35cb8.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === fschoep_ [n=franksch@adsl-dc-35cb8.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@host238-223-static.40-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:02] yo === andreasn [n=andreas@h151n2fls33o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === dtamas [n=dtamas@IP-115.c-211.tvnetwork.hu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:00] The edgy artwork is finished or it will be updated soon? === dtamas [n=dtamas@IP-115.c-211.tvnetwork.hu] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === effraie [n=effraie@jem75-1-82-228-146-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === effraie [n=effraie@jem75-1-82-228-146-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === effraie [n=effraie@jem75-1-82-228-146-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h151n2fls33o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === dborg [n=daniel@e182049193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === n8k99 [n=nathan@dsl254-078-190.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === sittisal [n=claudio@adsl-80-66.38-151.net24.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mmedland [n=mmedland@81.168.72.134] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:25] wholly full house [07:26] greetings everyone [07:42] hi troy_s [07:43] hi troy_s [07:43] i think that this is a chatroom were everyone of us hope a new good ubuntu's look [07:43] but i think that we sohould wait for edgy+1 [07:43] :-P [07:44] n8k99 has anyone constructed an artwork roadmap for feisty,yet? [07:45] anyway... also fedora core 6 delayed echo deploymento to fedora core 7 [07:45] i think that echo icon theme is the most beautiful and professional icon theme for linux [07:46] based on tango... looks more attractive than tango [07:50] damn [07:50] fucking current artwork [07:51] ubuntu should be different from tiger or windows [07:51] the new wallpaper is like tiger's one [07:51] only brown [08:04] laf [08:04] artwork is not in our domain [08:04] i'm afraid [08:05] sabdfl has hired the fellow who designed this stunning site: http://spacejunkdesigns.com [08:05] to do the work for fiesty [08:05] he is also the fellow who designed the dapper look [08:06] n8k99 there was a roadmap in place for edgy, it was trumped by sabdfl. [08:06] sittisal and I wouldn't be holding my breath for that 'good new ubuntu look' in edgy+1 [08:07] brb... dapper booting... [08:07] troy_s: i realize that - I was wondering if there had been work towards planning feisty [08:08] troy_s: with the hope of pleasing sabfl in plenty of time to make it in [08:08] visual appearence is a must for desktop oriented os [08:08] oh i see === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:09] so no community efforts towards feisty? [08:09] what about accepting proposal? [08:09] too resctrictive [08:10] not a chance [08:10] the default work will all be spackjunkdesign [08:10] to the best of my knowledge [08:11] i believe sab intends to open the community up to submissions for 'other' areas [08:11] such as cd work [08:11] etc [08:11] wow! that website isn't very stunning as it doesn't even load [08:11] in the same vein as the spacejunkdesign [08:11] great [08:11] n8k99 ;) [08:11] i mean this [08:11] you need the new flash [08:11] let me check the link n8k99 [08:12] won't happen as adobe does not acknowledge that people use linux on ppc [08:12] well... and it is closed source [08:12] so i suggest boycotting it all together [08:13] it is far too limited in scope for consideration in a global web world. [08:13] so basically, the artwork team will need to follow the stylings of whatever is set for feisty [08:13] good on one side, bad on another. [08:13] yeah - i can boycott it aall i want but my friends all youtube [08:14] n8k99 well utube is now google [08:14] so wait for some changes [08:14] and there has been a lot of work in the open source community surrounding the open flash implementation [08:14] for playing flash movies etc. [08:14] yeah i'm not particularly concerned about that stuff [08:14] personally, i would suggest you send well written emails to the people who provide and support such limited software. [08:15] for example, the bbc was using realplayer codec to stream their global audio [08:15] most of it is probably based in ignorance of options. [08:15] and they generally aren't aware of the implications until people send them mail. [08:15] i am disappointed about no community efforts for feisty [08:15] n8k99 the community effort will still be there [08:15] just not in the default look / feel. [08:16] until sabdfl lightens his grip on aesthetics, which isn't likely to happen as i doubt his mailbox is filling up with complaints, etc. [08:16] i realize that - kinda hard to get full thoughts out with 1 hand (baby in lap) [08:16] *_^ [08:17] aw congrats! [08:17] boy girl? [08:17] thanks, she is 18 mos [08:17] aw sweetie [08:17] i stay at home wit her [08:17] although that is borderline 'kid' mode now :) [08:17] yeah trully [08:17] i guess i should probably calculate my age in months [08:17] it might make for some interesting conversations [08:17] check the pics if you like http://eckenrodehouse.net [08:18] design by community won't work [08:18] i am 433 months old. [08:18] lapo i disagree [08:18] fundamentally [08:18] mark is right imho [08:18] make no mistake, i think that the fine arts community has plenty to learn regarding open design / free design [08:18] troy_s born in june? [08:18] oct [08:19] ah, may here [08:19] their little heads are so squishy at that age :) [08:19] so 438 months [08:19] lapo: realistically, [08:19] lapo: one cannot argue that multiple minds always will design better products [08:19] troy_s: you should mix other people atrwork well, but you need a finisher who make the whole package consistent [08:20] lapo: i disagree... the consistency level is largely a byproduct of skill [08:20] lapo: and in the short term, i would agree that a final 'polisher' could work to override the skills ability to bring all of the work up to a consistent level. [08:20] lapo: but as people get a feel for free design, i think their ability to fit in will increase. [08:21] lapo: just like the work on firefox -- you don't just start renegade coding... you look at the libs, you look at the code base, etc. [08:21] troy_s: is a loooong process to get a common style out of a group of people [08:21] lapo: that is why all products that have effective design start with a design bible [08:21] it clearly outlines a full palette with goals and techniques, line work discussions, etc. [08:22] makes it far easier to _start_ the race if everyone is on the same course. [08:22] we're barelly there with tango, because it's some time we work together (and we are few people) [08:22] unfortunately, most people don't treat the fine arts as a scientific process, which is truly is. [08:22] lapo: possibly started out too loose [08:22] lapo: for example, before you shoot a single frame of film for a television series, you spend a good while designing the bible [08:22] which can be a massive tome [08:23] same thing with something like a video game [08:23] you have a design document [08:23] you _do not_ just start 'desgining' [08:23] that's right the directions mark gave you were to way too vague [08:23] you can do that during your brainstorm. [08:23] lapo: yep === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:23] i _tried_ to milk his aesthetic out, but he is far too resistant [08:23] msikma! good to see you friend. [08:24] the reality is that community based free design _cannot_ operate functionally until it is attacked in the same professional manner as all other projects. [08:24] for example, [08:24] look at vista's guidelines: [08:24] troy_s: mark directing an artwork team is like lapo doing software architecture work :-) [08:24] Hi troy_s [08:24] lapo: 100% agreement from me [08:24] so, my question is: why do we not have an actual construction of a design bible and follow a true production roadmap? [08:24] How's things? [08:24] yo msikma [08:24] n8k99 because there is NO look for ubuntu [08:24] design is visual literacy [08:24] meaning it should COMMUNICATE [08:24] and ubuntu's visuals communicate NOTHING [08:24] why not? [08:25] medium grey [08:25] troy_s: nice to see things I agree with being said right as I join the channel [08:25] very right [08:25] a) no motifs [08:25] b) no palette structure (although on a smaller battlefield i think we won this in edgy) [08:25] my computer is incredibly slow right now since I have 136 KB free space, urgh. brb. [08:25] albeit monochrome hell. [08:25] c) no keywords [08:25] c -- for example (Human, Community, etc) [08:26] so true [08:26] http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/?url=/library/en-us/UxGuide/UXGuide/Home.asp [08:26] no team work [08:26] I'd add [08:26] i have read probably 100 design and art books since i graduated from art school [08:26] and ubuntu defies _every_ single element [08:26] well the team work needs to be worked at [08:26] we are a fresh team [08:26] and we all need to learn [08:26] everyone puts their hands up in the air and says 'it will never work' [08:27] right - what i am asking is why do these things which we do not have, do not get implimentedunless sabfl does not want them? [08:27] instead of truly trying [08:27] n8k99 i think sabdfl simply doesn't understand [08:27] he is a very bright guy [08:27] with a wonderful vision [08:27] but regarding aesthetics, i think he really needs to hire a firm and have these elements _forced_ upon him [08:27] not some renegade solo guy [08:28] solo works _always_ appear to work better because ONE mind internally bears the consistency [08:28] however, that is not true design [08:28] There's something that I'd like to add. I noticed that the widgets of LegacyHuman were changed (and visually broken) since I upgraded to 6.10. It made me realize that this project's artwork, in the open source spirit, is constantly adapting even though it's sometimes simply a much better idea to leave something as it is, as I feel stability is an extremely important thing that the open source community simply never pays attention to. [08:28] read _anything_ about apple's Ive's work [08:28] or any serious design movement such as bahaus [08:28] etc. [08:28] msikma: i agree... if we could build in small ways [08:28] I was thinking of saying some other things in this conversation but it's not really necessary anymore, reading the past screen. [08:28] for example, [08:29] i was hoping that we could get some 'motifs' in place so that every release we could change them [08:29] for example [08:29] if we had a true colour palette [08:29] bug 67548 [08:29] Malone bug 67548 in legacyhuman-theme "LegacyHuman controls/widgets visually broken" [Medium,Rejected] http://launchpad.net/bugs/67548 [08:29] we could use say, three colours that are used to visually 'mark' the release [08:29] indeed, n8k99 [08:29] in a particular motif [08:29] etc [08:29] but all of this is for naught as mark's opinion regarding this is unmovable. [08:30] yep [08:30] so true [08:30] further, i take an offense at the 'official' take that the artwork team failed [08:30] we had a schedule [08:30] troy_s it appears that the answer I was seeking is "because mark says so" [08:30] we had a clearly outlined process [08:30] n8k99 now you are getting closer to the money [08:30] we had as much structure that was needed (i implemented an almost identical structure at blackbox games for camera work) [08:30] troy_s which makes me want to dislist myself from anything art [08:31] (on some need for speed contract work) [08:31] well no [08:31] it is exactly that that will let the issue rest [08:31] we must remain strong [08:31] and keep our massive progress together [08:31] we will have setbacks, and the reality is that _any_ project worth anything will have creative conflict [08:31] (just ask msikma and myself) [08:32] we must keep the creative conflict going, but the team should still be unified. [08:32] troy_s: mark is in hid right "dictating" about the arwork in ubuntu, the problem is that he is not the right man for such a job, so the whole thing is ill-fated imho [08:32] lapo: for the now, i might agree. [08:32] I do think that Mark cares about art. [08:32] msikma: agree 100% [08:32] well, in that case - i'd really like it if we set about putting a true design process in place so that we can turn out a consistent product with one month to spare on feist [08:32] he is not a dummy [08:32] y [08:32] msikma: he cares, but he has no artistic eyes [08:32] well... first thing first [08:33] Simply put, he cares about it enough to not want to make any huge changes unless he is _fully_ confident in them. [08:33] what we need to do is stay together as a team [08:33] and let him do what he does. [08:33] he is surelly a brulliant guy, but artistically speaking he is not [08:33] he is a ++terrific++ leader. [08:33] that very true [08:33] that said, we must keep level heads and perhaps form a theme team [08:33] where ALL of the folks who have expertise [08:33] troy_s right_ that is why i suggest that we put together a design plan [08:33] such as lapo and andreasn etc. [08:34] n8k99 did you see the design plan that was in place for edgy? [08:34] ;) [08:34] troy_s i did - i am talking about one that is as specific as you have been discussing [08:34] troy_s: I cannot really work on something I disagree with (that my hobby, not my work :-)) and the guidelines mark gave are totally wrong imho [08:34] troy_s: regarding the discussion above, I think it would be wise to call in some sort of a meeting concerning the planning for the next release. [08:34] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/backup [08:34] msikma: i think that would be great [08:34] but i don't want to appear as though we are trying to 'redirect' the talent pool [08:34] What's it called? feisty fawn? [08:35] i want everyone to really try and keep pushing ubuntu forwards in little ways [08:35] for example, fixing smaller icon issues [08:35] etc. [08:35] Maybe even set up a separate mailing list specifically for red tape purposes. [08:35] while at the same time, [08:35] _collaboratively_ working together to design a bible [08:35] troy_s what do you mean 'redirect'? [08:35] to start building from [08:35] n8k99 we run the risk of appearing like disgrunteled employees and 'doing our own thing' [08:35] troy_s: I don't want to offend anyone here, but human icon theme is a mess [08:36] what i would like in an ideal world is to take _all_ [08:36] lapo: you won't find anyone disagreeing with you here lapo i think [08:36] troy_s: ubuntu should follow the gnome path (as kubuntu does, for example) so tango style [08:36] lapo: it is missing motifs, styles, etc. [08:36] lapo: well i think a look should be distinct on that front [08:36] lapo: a custom icon set is the foundation for a distinct operating system [08:36] lapo: but namespaces and such that tango has set forth should be abided by [08:36] troy_s: it should be argued, though, that this is a Linux distro aimed at non-Linux users. [08:37] msikma: 100% agree [08:37] troy_s: you can have a distinct icon set following tango guidelines, as a lot of linux application are doing [08:37] lapo: then perhaps we are in agreement [08:37] as soon as i see tango i immediately (and wrongly) knee jerk into visualing the tango theme [08:37] They don't care that Bougainvillea Linux 1.5 or whatever other distros there are also have Tango. But that's beside the point, since I don't feel like touching the icon issue for some time. [08:37] i am all for supporting the hard work jimmac has put in getting standards in place etc. [08:38] yep, and the standards for tango are working nicely [08:38] fundamentally though, i would say that the icon look should be a part of the overall look [08:38] there's even a community around it, which works! [08:38] sure === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveat.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:38] lapo: indeed. that said i would say that the consistency factor still needs resolution -- again probably a byproduct of not having a design bible. [08:38] the overall look should be tango style imho [08:39] the design bible for icons should be deadly specific regarding two point perspective angles and distance, etc. [08:39] troy_s: you cannot really reach consistency w/o going tango style for the icons for example, you cannot have enough man power to redo all the icons [08:39] Tango look isn't perfect either. Tango actually has very little to do with what I believe would be specifically Ubuntu. [08:39] indeed. [08:39] i agree with msikma here. [08:39] lapo: if we truly do real work here [08:39] what is tango look for you [08:39] and work from paper sketch [08:40] ? [08:40] an _entire_ icon set could be developed in a month [08:40] easily [08:40] leaving many more for polishing etc. [08:40] troy_s: noway [08:40] Sure it can. [08:40] if we have a clear design bible [08:40] a clear set of looks [08:40] Make one icon per day and see how far you can get! [08:40] troy_s exactly [08:40] a clear way of discarding completely out of line images [08:40] Then do that with five people. [08:40] msikma: only ooo will take at least 3 montht [08:40] I personally could do it in a month [08:40] no that! a plan! [08:41] not a chance [08:41] lapo: have you seen some of the work in gant? [08:41] this guy has churned out about 600 high quality icons [08:41] he has a singular vision [08:41] In less than a month, you'll have maybe about 40% of the entire icon range done, but here's the thing: only 10% of the time that you use the system will you come across the other 60%. [08:41] which is what a bible attacks [08:41] a plan [08:41] troy_s: nope, but I know how much time jimmac (which is uber fast) needs to do an icon [08:41] miskma: and polish [08:41] lapo: i am saying get the BROAD strokes in place [08:41] and polish based on visibility of icons [08:41] troy_s: I am a slow picky bastard, but jimmac is light speed :-) [08:42] meaning ONCE the icon is in place [08:42] POLISH it [08:42] as we can [08:42] icons desinged per the bible in one month, several months to polish and finish [08:42] perhaps we run with only svg monochrome line work to start [08:42] troy_s: yes but you still have to polish omething like 300 or more icons [08:42] n8k99 bingo [08:42] lapo: well remember [08:42] an icon exists on a much smaller scale than wallapper [08:42] film porcess: rehearsal, light, shoot [08:42] if you use the 'forest through trees' mentality [08:42] process [08:42] n8k99 bingo [08:42] There's an illustrator at work who makes awesome things. He works in Illustrator, he never uses layers, he never uses shortcut keys for the tools, he never uses algorithms to generate art or perform certain effects, but he works so incredibly fast. [08:43] n8k99 brainstorm, set guidelines, build bible, set teams for creating elements [08:43] msikma: bingo [08:43] true artists don't worry about tools [08:43] in fact, many of the guys i know who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars at art [08:43] take restrictions as creative challenges [08:43] 'what can you do with this box of toothpicks and black ink?' [08:44] ;) [08:44] i think we can do it [08:44] my only concern [08:44] Can you run Flash yet? You can find his work under Illustration > Mr. Feaver (http://www.shop-around.nl/) [08:44] had an art teacher once make us paint small picture with giant brush [08:44] n8k99: awsome. [08:44] then next project was giant painting with tiny detail brush [08:44] i did the same sort of project for some photography work, we had to use only three shapes -- a cube a pyramid and a sphere with no background and one light [08:45] similar tasks [08:45] there is a _terrific_ design book called visual literacy i believe [08:45] that has a hundred of those projects [08:45] how to communicate 'unity' with six black squares all of the same shape etc. [08:45] nice chat guys, have to go, later [08:45] msikma, yah i am on dapper and have a 32 bit firefox [08:45] let me look [08:46] anyways, i think it is well worthwhile getting the brainstorming going [08:46] further, because we wouldn't be tied to the ubuntu release cycle [08:46] keywords? [08:46] we only need to proceed once everyone is relatively [08:46] happy. [08:46] register your nickname n8k99 [08:46] "/msg nickserv register PASSWORD" [08:46] i did [08:47] yeah - i already have [08:47] it was me:) [08:47] i changed my pass [08:47] sorry for my ignorance [08:49] np [08:49] i had to start Blue's Clues on the mac mini to get some space!! [08:50] wow [08:50] msikma [08:50] great stuff at that link [08:50] Do you like it? [08:50] amazing artist [08:50] yes i really do [08:50] i love it. [08:50] i always head straight to illustration [08:50] That's the Shop Around. It's not where I work, but it's right above us at the office building. The two companies go way back, and most of our work comes from them. [08:51] because i find that is the one area you can't fake easily :) [08:51] Hehe yeah [08:51] the original stylized stuff is amazing [08:51] They're kind of like an agency for designers and the likes of. They have a database with people. So that's why they're the "design supermarket". [08:51] You go there and shop for an artist. [08:52] aneurin wright is pretty incredible [08:52] angelique houtcamp [08:52] love her style [08:53] erik kreiks work is good too. [08:53] Anouk Griffioen used to be my teacher for a year [08:54] let me look [08:54] Then suddenly when I went to get coffee I saw her sitting at shop around :P [08:54] very mimetic [08:54] I didn't learn much, though. The school was terrible. We only had a few lessons. [08:54] not my alley. [08:54] msikma: it can largely depend on the type of art school you go to. [08:54] msikma: for example, the school that i got my bfa from was largely avant-garde, which was really eye opening. [08:55] I actually don't understand why they put only that work of her up. She's got other stuff too which is a bit less abstract. [08:55] more abstract? [08:55] the work there of hers is rather like photography [08:56] i would rather see something more stylized. [08:56] Well, maybe abstract isn't the right word. [08:57] toko's work is quite good in the design category [08:57] bold. [08:57] interesting stuff there to say the least [08:59] i love angeliques and aneurin's work [08:59] i am very interested in the prospect of setting a theme/unified look/feel without all the plasticy/glossy stuff [09:00] plastic and glossy is [09:00] _done_ [09:00] very dated [09:00] in my opinion [09:00] but to make it alll look as if it is handmade by 19th centruy craftsmen [09:00] your know germany toymakers [09:00] i was discussing this with an art director in town [09:00] _totally_ [09:00] i simply love that idea [09:00] very 'value' [09:00] not cranked out by a plastic mould making machine [09:00] right [09:00] what is your email address n8k:? [09:01] here let me put them on the wiki [09:01] check this out... truly might blow you away [09:01] this is robin william's computer from the final cut [09:01] i know the art director [09:01] who did that film [09:01] let me put it up on a temp wiki page [09:02] https://launchpad.net/people/nathaneckenrode [09:02] aw damn it... i never made the connection between your handle and your name [09:02] now it is all coming together [09:03] Glossy is done? Seems to me like it's a very hot design element at the moment. Not just concerning the two other major operating systems. Or, at the very least, perhaps it isn't glossy that's "in", but rather cleanliness is. [09:04] msikma: the current design conferences are all heading towards earthy / organics [09:04] yeah, I'm a clever dick huh! *_^ [09:04] 'clean' and 'organics' aren't mutually exclusive. [09:04] But do those conferences discuss design in our context as well? [09:05] msikma: all design is influenced by outside movements. on some level, design moves in unison. [09:05] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/fc [09:05] I am kind of out of touch with the design community, though. Ever since I started doing ActionScript for a living, it's just been dwindling a little. [09:05] check that link out. [09:05] that is an edit suite used in final cut [09:05]