[03:18] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:32] <sbalneav> Evening all!
[04:15] <ikks> @search packages
[04:15] <ikks> @search paquetes
[04:16] <ikks> @list
[04:17] <BonBonTheJon> ikks: what are you trying to do
[04:18] <ikks> sorry, wrong channel, the bot is in #ubuntu-es :)
[04:18] <ikks> oops
[04:18] <BonBonTheJon> ikks: there is a bot here
[04:18] <BonBonTheJon> !packages
[04:18] <ubotu> You can browse and search for Ubuntu packages using !Synaptic, !Adept, "apt-cache search <keywords>", the "apt:/" URL in KDE, or online at http://packages.ubuntu.com  -  Ubuntu has about 18000 packages available, so please *search* for an official package before installing things in awkward ways!
[04:18] <bimberi> !bot
[04:18] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[04:18] <bimberi> :)
[04:18] <BonBonTheJon> thanks bimberi
[04:19] <bimberi> BonBonTheJon: np :)
[04:19] <ikks> thx bimberi
[04:19] <ikks> !list
[04:19] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[04:23] <ikks> This bot rocks :)
[04:23] <ikks> !version
[04:23] <ubotu> To find out what version of Ubuntu you have, type 'lsb_release -a' in the Terminal.
[04:24] <ikks> I see, supybot :)
[04:24] <bimberi> !msg the bot
[04:24] <ubotu> Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots  -  Abusing the channel bots will only result in angry ops... ;-)
[04:24] <bimberi> ;)
[04:32] <ikks> really kind, thanks a lot, have a wonderful time :)
[05:43] <sky123> hello.For those using LTSP portion of edubuntu what kind of server do you have to support 40 clients?
[06:00] <sbalneav> sky123: For 40 clients, you'd probably want something fairly beefy.
[06:00] <sky123> that is concurrent users? 
[06:00] <sbalneav> At least a gig of ram, and a 3 ghz or better CPU
[06:00] <sbalneav> You'd be better with about 2 gigs of ram.
[06:00] <sbalneav> Yes, 40 concurrent.
[06:00] <sky123> I see 
[06:01] <sky123> I am trying " sell the idea" to a school Im working with and the arguements are " well if go to wallmart the os is already loaded...etc.etc" my counterpoint has been trying to deal with management overhead..etc..
[06:02] <sky123> what would be the advantage of ltsp..i gues... 
[06:02] <sky123> is what im asking 
[06:03] <sbalneav> Do they already have some older PC's?
[06:03] <sbalneav> Because if they do, then you can re-use them.  
[06:04] <sbalneav> Rather than buying 40 $300 boxes, and have no server to tie them together, just 40 disconnected machines,
[06:04] <sky123> right 
[06:04] <sbalneav> You could spend 1 x 3000 for one GOOD server, re-use the 40 old clunkers you've already got.
[06:04] <sbalneav> PLUS, thown into the bargain, you get:
[06:05] <sky123> and deployment of course is much easier 
[06:05] <sbalneav> administration tools, edu software, networking, backups, etc etc etc.
[06:05] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: consolemanager
[06:05] <sbalneav> exactly.
[06:05] <Burgundavia> do you have time to talk about that?
[06:05] <sky123> how do you manage the backups on the master? 
[06:05] <sky123> ie documents 
[06:05] <sky123> etc 
[06:05] <sbalneav> consolemanager?
[06:05] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: the bit that tells which usb port goes to which seat
[06:06] <sky123> consolemanager?---has backup capabilities?
[06:06] <sbalneav> Ubuntu comes with a nice little backup utility now.  If you;ve got a DVD or CD writer, you can just back up on those.
[06:06] <sbalneav> Burgundavia: You mean, localdevices?
[06:06] <sky123> ....what is it called??
[06:06] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: yes, that
[06:07] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: davidz and I were talking in Boston
[06:07] <sbalneav> heh, it's called localdevices, not consolemanager.  That's a bit I wrote. :)
[06:07] <Burgundavia> about a general thingy to control that, whether it be thin clients, fusa or multiseat
[06:07] <Burgundavia> davidz called it console manager
[06:07] <sky123> i see 
[06:08] <sky123> I want to know whether such a system would be also safe to double up as a potential school tool server or as a file repository for non thinclients 
[06:08] <Burgundavia> sky123: we are talking about something differrent
[06:08] <sky123> or are we talking about a dedicated server 
[06:08] <sky123> Burgundavia: yeah I got that 
[06:08] <sky123> :) 
[06:08] <sbalneav> sky123: Yes, edubuntu comes with Samba, so it can serve Windows boxes as well.
[06:09] <sky123> is that acting as a PDC?
[06:09] <sky123> or ??
[06:09] <sbalneav> I don't beleive it acts as a pdc as of yet, I think that's on the speccing process to add for the next release.
[06:09] <Burgundavia> not yet
[06:10] <Burgundavia> needs samba4
[06:10] <sbalneav> But it can act as a standalone server.
[06:11] <sky123> k...so the sahring of a public folder etc...is there.. 
[06:11] <sky123> and using some of the native backup tools has the potential to backup to cdrom or whatever 
[06:12] <sbalneav> yes
[06:12] <sky123> x the wahtever part...to what??
[06:13] <sbalneav> Sorry, not understanding you?
[06:14] <sbalneav> What is it you're asking?
[06:19] <sky123> im sorry for not being clearer...but i guess im asking what is the tool for backing up to say cdrom or dvd or prescribed best methodology to back up the server...I could find little in google or wiki to actually do this. 
[06:22] <sbalneav> Well, I beleive the tool's called hubackup
[06:22] <Burgundavia> it is
[06:22] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: back to this console manager stuff
[06:22] <whiprush> sbalneav: sky123: If you guys mean an NT4 domain, then yeah, normal samba3 can do that.
[06:22] <sbalneav> Hey whiprush
[06:22] <whiprush> hubackup just does user stuff, not a whole server.
[06:22] <whiprush> his scott!
[06:22] <sbalneav> Correct.
[06:22] <whiprush> he'll want like backuppc or something for that
[06:23] <sky123> or use like mondoarchive 
[06:23] <sbalneav> Burgundavia: what about it?
[06:23] <whiprush> sky123: I just deployed a new server for this, what's your price range?
[06:23] <whiprush> sky123: yeah whatever tool you're used to will work
[06:23] <sky123> well i was looking at around 1600 bucks 
[06:23] <sky123> but that may be pushing it 
[06:23] <whiprush> yeah
[06:23] <whiprush> pushing it price-wise?
[06:24] <sky123> yep 
[06:24] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: how much of that code is fairly generic?
[06:24] <whiprush> sky123: RAM is key IMO.
[06:24] <sky123> i ebayed and trouble finding one...with say like 4gb of memory at a good price 
[06:24] <whiprush> I would shoot for an AMD64 machine with as much ram as you can cram in there.
[06:24] <sky123> right...
[06:24] <sbalneav> I'm confused.  Are you talking about localdevices?  As in, being able to plug USB, cdroms and floppies into thin clients?
[06:24] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: yes
[06:25] <sbalneav> That's not called console manager.
[06:25] <whiprush> sky123: have you looked at penguincomputing?
[06:25] <sbalneav> That's called localdevices.
[06:25] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: sorry, that is what davidz was talking about
[06:25] <sky123> no not yet...just a bunch of supermicro stuff...or servers that go used at trade shows.....lol 
[06:25] <whiprush> yeah
[06:25] <sbalneav> And define, "fairly generic"? I.e. are yus asking if it can be made to run on other linux distros?
[06:25] <whiprush> supermicro hell, been there myself. :-/
[06:26] <sky123> lol 
[06:26] <sky123> damn man....nothing is easy in education 
[06:26] <sky123> ;) 
[06:26] <whiprush> indeed.
[06:26] <whiprush> sky123: you could try the multi-faceted approach too
[06:27] <whiprush> buy one server for like ... 20 clients.
[06:27] <whiprush> and when people see how well it works
[06:27] <whiprush> use that as justification for funds for another one
[06:27] <sky123> hmmm...yeah this is a good suggestion 
[06:27] <whiprush> because people won't believe the thin client thing
[06:27] <sbalneav> Burgundavia: Is that what you're wanting to know?
[06:28] <whiprush> until they SEE it working
[06:28] <whiprush> then the lightbulb goes off
[06:28] <sky123> i dont think they will ever be used concurrently all the time....but id rather NOT err on that lapse of judgement.... 
[06:28] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: well, userful does multiseat stuff. Our current crack is slightly insane
[06:28] <sky123> right 
[06:28] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: I am looking for more sane stuff ath could be made generic and pushed into something like HAL
[06:28] <whiprush> sky123: no matter how big your box is you'll never have enough.
[06:29] <whiprush> so the best thing to do is just to look at value vs. cost.
[06:29] <sbalneav> Sorry you think the stuff I wrote is "slightly insane".
[06:29] <whiprush> sbalneav: he means his company's crack
[06:29] <whiprush> not yours
[06:29] <sbalneav> I'm completely confused here.
[06:30] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: no, our crack is insane
[06:30] <whiprush> sbalneav: although i think you're insane, but that's for other reasons. :p
[06:30] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: userful does multiseat X
[06:30] <sbalneav> Who's userful?
[06:30] <Burgundavia> our current code patches the world to make local devices work
[06:30] <Burgundavia> the company I work for
[06:31] <sbalneav> ah, is this a commercial product?
[06:31] <Burgundavia> yes, but built on FC4
[06:31] <Burgundavia> that is not important right now
[06:31] <Burgundavia> what is important is that you have written saner stuff to solve a similar problem
[06:32] <sky123> got another question...from the terminal clients themselves...if a kid pops in a usb pen with their doc or has a floppy..is there a way for them to load there docs or no....oh and sound?? 
[06:32] <sbalneav> Then you may be interested in helping Warren Togami and Eric Harrison in the Fedora port of LTSP, which includes ltspfs.
[06:33] <Burgundavia> perfect
[06:33] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: we chatted in Montreal back in Nov of last year
[06:33] <whiprush> sky123: upstream ltsp does, dunno if the new edubuntu does. 
[06:33] <whiprush> sky123: i'm here to learn too, heh.
[06:33] <sky123> :) 
[06:33] <Burgundavia> as of edgy, yes
[06:34] <whiprush> awesome
[06:34] <sky123> but edgy is not the "stable" release yet...its still "rc"?
[06:34] <Burgundavia> now somebody needs to get some open source code working on those sun rays
[06:34] <Burgundavia> sky123: edgy is 3 days away
[06:34] <sky123> nice :) 
[06:34] <sky123> so sound support and ability to use the client to load say a document is there???
[06:34] <sky123> whoah 
[06:34] <sky123> that is cool 
[06:35] <sky123> via floppy or usb that is... 
[06:35] <whiprush> Burgundavia: i'm bringing three sunrays to mountain view with hopes of giving them away, and I gave ogra and I (think) sbalneav one.
[06:35] <Burgundavia> score
[06:35] <sky123> i need one :) 
[06:36] <sky123> those are Sun Boxes?
[06:36] <Burgundavia> what chipset is in a sunray?
[06:36] <sky123> opteron 
[06:36] <Burgundavia> sun thin clients
[06:36] <sbalneav> whiprush: I've become convinced that what they chiefly need is a proper boot rom to them
[06:36] <Burgundavia> serious? not sparc?
[06:36] <sbalneav> I can't get them to boot anything useful
[06:36] <sky123> i just saw one todau on  ebay ...uhmmm VG something that opteron processors 
[06:37] <whiprush> sbalneav: I've been scouring google for years, I've yet not seen anyone be successful with them to do anything useful.
[06:37] <sky123> but I have plenty T100 hundreds here at home...$150 a pop for simple stuff...with sparc processors...lol 
[06:37] <sky123> the sparc version..works well... nagios, cacti, etc.. 
[06:37] <whiprush> sbalneav: BUT ... Sun has "committed" to oss'ing the sun ray server software, so when that day comes, at least you guys will be all set to go to making it work, heh.
[06:38] <sky123> :) 
[06:38] <whiprush> they have an Ultrasparc II or something in them
[06:38] <whiprush> thin client
[06:38] <whiprush> they're basically useless without the sun server software.
[06:38] <Burgundavia> so you get a binary blob
[06:38] <Burgundavia> lovely
[06:39] <whiprush> they are very popular with universities though
[06:39] <whiprush> and most just warehouse them when they move off of solaris.
[06:39] <Burgundavia> educational institutions often don't know what todo with them
[06:39] <Burgundavia> todo with IT, rather
[06:39] <whiprush> I got 60 for free and I have 300 more on tap for the cost of shipping.
[06:39] <whiprush> and that's just me.
[06:39] <whiprush> I am sure I'm not the only one.
[06:40] <sbalneav> Well, thin client booted out of the box.
[06:40] <whiprush> I have a feeling that when sun open sources the stuff that someone will have ltsp working on it with a day or two.
[06:40] <sbalneav> Edubuntu testing going well.
[06:40] <whiprush> sbalneav: any news from eric or warren on their fedora efforts?
[06:41] <sky123> whiprush: these are client versions ??? 
[06:41] <whiprush> sky123: ?
[06:41] <sbalneav> I haven;t heard anything as of late.  I think jammcq may have been in touch.
[06:41] <sky123> whiprush: the sun stuff you have access to 
[06:41] <whiprush> sky123: sun sells these thin clients, but they're proprietary.
[06:41] <whiprush> think closed sourced ltsp.
[06:41] <whiprush> but they have promised to open source it
[06:42] <sky123> i saw this: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/linux_terminal_server?page=0%2C1 and the use of these sun rays 
[06:42] <sky123> same thing??
[06:43] <whiprush> same idea
[06:43] <whiprush> two incompatible implementations
[06:43] <whiprush> you can use any PC with LTSP
[06:43] <whiprush> if you use sunrays, you need to buy them from Sun.
[06:43] <whiprush> and run their software on the server.
[06:44] <whiprush> sky123: long story short, if you never end up using their client software and their proprietary hardware, then you're good.
[06:44] <sky123> lol 
[06:44] <whiprush> edubuntu CD and some old machines, and you'll be all set.
[06:44] <sky123> cool 
[06:44] <whiprush> I have 300 of these damn Sun things, and I am /hoping/ that someday it might work as well as LTSP/edubuntu.
[06:45] <Burgundavia> they are just hardware devices
[06:45] <Burgundavia> it cannot be that difficult
[06:45] <sbalneav> Well, getting near midnight here, heading to bed.
[06:45] <sbalneav> night all
[06:45] <whiprush> sbalneav: nite dude
[06:48] <lotusleaf> Halloween is almost upon us, and you know that that means: clean out your closet of those spare Ubuntu Ship-It CDs you may have, duct tape a Snickers bar to them if you have to, just give them out!!
[06:49] <sky123> Are these any good?? SUN FIRE V20Z DUAL OPTERON 248
[06:50] <BonBonTheJon> lotusleaf: lol, thats great
[06:51] <lotusleaf> BonBonTheJon: =)
[06:52] <sky123> better yet the trick would be to hand them the winxp disk
[06:53] <sky123> no nutritional value 
[06:53] <BonBonTheJon> sky123: you got that kind of money?
[06:53] <sky123> who said i bought it ;) 
[06:53] <BonBonTheJon> sky123: I like your thinking :)
[06:54] <sky123> lol 
[06:54] <sky123> hopefully Mark will the next version of ubuntu "doors" 
[06:54] <sky123> that would just piss off the right people 
[06:55] <lotusleaf> sky123: I'd rather hand someone a clump of cow feces, at least that has some use, in the garden
[06:56] <sky123> hehe rofl
[06:56] <BonBonTheJon> windows cd's make nice cup holder
[06:56] <BonBonTheJon> or, I want to make a CD disco ball
[06:56] <sky123> only then al gore would be all over you for contributing to green house gases with methane release
[06:57] <sky123> or crow chasers...if you hang them from a string in the corn fields. 
[06:57] <sky123> thats about it 
[06:58] <sky123> or piss people off and ship them back to bill and melidina gates for their foundation for halloween....lol 
[06:58] <sky123> ahh..such pent up anger....
[06:58] <sky123> <------needs anti m$ valium 
[07:14] <sky123> hey does someone know the difference between the xeon dp processors and one's that come in the server rack models??
[07:29] <LinuxRetard> anyone adept at wireless and feeling helpful tonight?
[07:29] <Burgundavia> LinuxRetard: your nick is a little offensive
[07:29] <sky123> lol 
[07:29] <LinuxRetard> Edubuntu on two of my kiddies pcs.  1 works wireless...one doesn't.
[07:30] <sky123> same laptop??
[07:30] <LinuxRetard> I am humble enough to admit my handicap
[07:30] <Burgundavia> however, I find you nick a little offensive
[07:30] <Burgundavia> please change it
[07:30] <sky123> yeah...considering it is an education channel...id have to agree 
[07:30] <LinuxRetard> thanx anywayz
[07:31] <sky123> not the proper terminology.....change it...and i can help....
[07:31] <sky123> oh well too l8 
[07:31] <sky123> Burgundavia: Id have to say you made the right call on that one... 
[07:31] <Burgundavia> sad he felt he had to leave
[07:32] <sky123> just had to change the name thats all...and i was more surprised..he didnt try the ubuntu channel..common topic 
[07:32] <sky123> maybe needed ndiswrapper or something like that.. 
[07:32] <sky123> oh well 
[07:32] <Burgundavia> life happens
[08:32] <willvdl> is any one familiar with the loki installer?
[08:33] <Burgundavia> willvdl: not really
[08:33] <Burgundavia> what is the issue?
[08:34] <willvdl> well I'm working with a content provider
[08:34] <willvdl> They do data casting etc and provide offline snapshots
[08:35] <willvdl> mainly static html and FLV
[08:35] <willvdl> on windows they use installshield
[08:35] <willvdl> but don't really have a linux install process.
[08:35] <Burgundavia> right
[08:36] <highvoltage> gdebi is the way
[08:36] <Burgundavia> so for Linux, they should be using Linux best practise, which is packaging
[08:37] <willvdl> my first though was some kind of deb
[08:37] <Burgundavia> data only debs are really easy to create
[08:37] <willvdl> but they snapshots are large (possibly a few dvd's)
[08:37] <Burgundavia> that is not an issue
[08:38] <willvdl> okie
[08:38] <Burgundavia> if they are concerned about cross distro stuff
[08:38] <Burgundavia> alien is their answer
[08:39] <willvdl> not really, mainly an ubuntu base
[08:39] <Burgundavia> then don't worry about it
[08:40] <willvdl> is gdebi also used to create the deb?
[08:40] <Burgundavia> no
[08:40] <Burgundavia> just for the installing
[08:40] <Burgundavia> if they need help with packaging, there is help for that
[08:40] <Burgundavia> MOTU can help them
[08:41] <willvdl> right. I just need to make sure that whatever they do, the most tech-unsavvy teacher can still install it and will have aaall their dependencies (adobe,flash etc) sorted automatically
[08:44] <Burgundavia> for that, they will need deb
[08:44] <Burgundavia> anything else is a hack
[08:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> wasnt expecting to be back... lets see if i hang around. *waves*
[08:50] <Kamping_Kaiser> :)
[08:51] <Burgundavia> hey RichEd-1
[08:52] <RichEd> hey Burgundavia :)
[08:52] <willvdl> morning RichEd
[08:53] <RichEd> hi willvdl : how is johannesburg ?
[08:53] <willvdl> fruitfull
[08:53] <willvdl> http://www.unescobkk.org/index.php?id=494 
[08:54] <willvdl> http://www2.unescobkk.org/education/ict/v2_2/detail.asp?id=44787
[08:54] <willvdl> Go Phillipines
[08:57] <RichEd> That is all great link info for the community area + the ones yesterday. 
[09:08] <willvdl> Burgwork, Highvoltage, thanks for the help
[10:59] <ogra> Burgundavia, console manager requires a networkable transport layer for hal that doesnt exist yet
[10:59] <ogra> thats far far in the future
[12:26] <jelkner> Is there anything special you need to know to dist-upgrade to edgy?
[12:27] <jelkner> will gksu "update-manager -c -d" work?
[12:28] <ogra> gksudo, but yes
[12:28] <jelkner> cool!
[12:28] <jelkner> thanks
[01:41] <pips1> good afternoon
[01:43] <cbx33> hey pips1 
[01:43] <cbx33> got your email
[01:43] <cbx33> will take a look alter ;)
[01:43] <pips1> :)
[01:49] <lguerra> RichEd: ping
[01:50] <RichEd> lguerra: pong
[02:03] <cbx33> pips1, can I ask why the switch and the hub are no the other way round?
[02:04] <cbx33> and secondly...what did yo udraw that in...it's ace :D
[02:05] <cbx33> or are you pips1_ at the moment ;)
[02:06] <pips1_> yep
[02:06] <pips1_> 1: are you talking about "device C" and "device D" in that question?
[02:07] <cbx33> yes
[02:07] <pips1_> 2: shhhh (it was done with MS visio)
[02:07] <lucasvo> hm, python chalenge is not very easy...
[02:07] <cbx33> python chalenge?
[02:08] <lucasvo> *challenge
[02:08] <lucasvo> http://www.pythonchallenge.com
[02:08] <cbx33> lucasvo, where are you?
[02:09] <lucasvo> step 3
[02:09] <lucasvo> just began today
[02:09] <pips1_> I figured that I need most network speed on the LTSP network, so that's why I used the gigabit switch (device d) to connect the edub. server with the thin client(s)
[02:09] <lucasvo> pips1_: don't you know DIA?
[02:09] <pips1_> lucasvo: I do
[02:10] <lucasvo> pips1_: so why use visio :P
[02:10] <jelkner> I just did an update to edgy.  Everything worked like a charm on the server side
[02:10] <jelkner> but i have a problem on the clients
[02:10] <pips1_> but for me, it's currently the same problem as with photoshop/gimp... I work much more efficiently with the former :-/
[02:11] <pips1_> cbx33: why do you think that I should swop the hub and switch?
[02:13] <jelkner> mount: 192.168.217.254:/opt/ltsp/i386 failed, reason given by server: permission denied
[02:14] <pips1_> jelkner: are you doing an dapper -> edgy  upgrade on an edubuntu server?
[02:14] <cbx33> um....because security wise and capability wise
[02:14] <jelkner> pips1_: yes
[02:15] <cbx33> you want the switch to be as far towards the source as possible
[02:16] <pips1_> cbx33: regarding "as far towards the source as possible", well, I did that for the thin client (i.e. in the ltsp network, the edubuntu server is the source)
[02:17] <jsgotangco> good evening
[02:17] <cbx33> well....i'de prefer 2 machines off switch than one
[02:18] <jelkner> pips1_: the client boot process proceeds through dhcp, gets and address, then can't mount /opt/ltsp/i386
[02:19] <pips1_> cbx33: yeah, I see your point. I just figured that a gigabit switch is a waste in a 10/100 network.. 
[02:19] <jsgotangco> its ok if you're going to cascade gigabit switches
[02:20] <pips1_> jelkner: ic. I was just about to start a test for upgrading dapper->edgy on my test setup here...
[02:20] <pips1_> jsgotangco: cascade them?
[02:21] <pips1_> jsgotangco: maybe I should send you the network diagram I made... it'll make it easier to discuss :) Should I?
[02:21] <jsgotangco> stack up switches
[02:21] <jsgotangco> pips1_: sure email it to me
[02:21] <pips1_> oki
[02:21] <jsgotangco> jgotangco@ubuntu.com
[02:22] <highvoltage> jelkner: dit you get it working? looks like nfs isn't running
[02:23] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: hey!
[02:24] <highvoltage> hey jsgotangco!
[02:24] <jsgotangco> nice diagram!
[02:25] <pips1_> everybody, stop saying that, it was done with MS visio ;-)
[02:25] <jsgotangco> that's why the icon resources are nice
[02:25] <jsgotangco> hehe
[02:26] <pips1_> yeah, the icons look nice
[02:26] <jsgotangco> ok so the problem is that Edubuntu's DHCP isn't being listend by clients?
[02:26] <jelkner> pips1_: cool, i beat you to it ;-)
[02:26] <pips1_> jsgotangco: yes, I think that is the problem
[02:27] <jelkner> pips1_: any idea what i can do about the permissions problem?
[02:28] <pips1_> jelkner: sorry, no
[02:28] <highvoltage> jelkner: it seems like NFS isn't running on your server
[02:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> a few quick questions: does edubuntu have any quick sabayon howtos? does it need any? (it seems fairly idiot proof, but i havent used it yet ;))
[02:28] <jsgotangco> pips1_: ok it seems that you'll need to whip up a very custom dhcp conf file for eth0 because it seems eth1 is configured to listen as dhcp as well?
[02:29] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: not much
[02:29] <highvoltage> jelkner: have you tried to restart portmap, nfs-common and nfs-kernel-server in that order?
[02:29] <jelkner> highvoltage: thanks, let me try to start it
[02:29] <highvoltage> jelkner: and what is in your /etc/exports, you should have an /opt/ltsp/i386 in there
[02:30] <jelkner> highvoltage: there was nothing in /etc/exports it got overwritten
[02:30] <jelkner> so first i add:
[02:30] <jelkner> /opt/ltsp/i386 to /etc/exports
[02:31] <pips1_> jsgotangco: I don't know if eth1 is configured to listen to listen as dhcp client... I suppose ogra can tell us? :-)
[02:31] <highvoltage> let me get the correct line for you...
[02:31] <jelkner> then restart the services in the order you suggest
[02:31] <jelkner> ok
[02:31] <highvoltage> jelkner: "/opt/ltsp       *(ro,no_root_squash,async)
[02:31] <highvoltage> "
[02:31] <jelkner> thanks
[02:31] <jelkner> let me try
[02:31] <jsgotangco> pips1_: well eth0 is usually your default
[02:31] <highvoltage> jelkner: after adding that line you will need to restart nfs-kernel-server
[02:31] <jsgotangco> and that's where dhcpd binds first when seen
[02:32] <jsgotangco> and since eth1 seems to be the internet gateway, it shouldn't really conflict with eth0 since it doesn't listen to the dhcp broadcast of your applicance (as seen from your diagram)
[02:33] <cbx33> lucasvo, I'm on lvl3 now
[02:33] <pips1_> jsgotangco: hmm. right. well, to be honest, I can't remember what I did exactly when I installed edgy... I installed it many times, choosing different options in the installer.. maybe it would be best to start fresh
[02:34] <pips1_> jsgotangco: what do you think?
[02:34] <jsgotangco> pips1_: well you need dhcpd so that the client knows where to grab the boot image....
[02:35] <jsgotangco> you can just try isolating the whole edubuntu network first for testing then enable the other ethernet card
[02:35] <jsgotangco> just so you can see if dhcpd actually worked
[02:36] <pips1_> jsgotangco: what do you think is the best approach for my network problem. Should I re-configure my network appliances and try to get edubuntu's automatic network config to work? or should I leave my network appliances configured as they are, and change the edubuntu server config? 
[02:36] <jsgotangco> don't mess up your appliance since it already works
[02:36] <pips1_> heh, right
[02:36] <jsgotangco> you can actually still use your appliance to be the dhcpd server for all but its a bit hackish on the ltsp side
[02:36] <jelkner> highvoltage: thanks a 10**6! It worked!
[02:37] <jelkner> now i have another question: isn't edgy supposed to have a new login screen that permits the user to choose language?
[02:37] <jsgotangco> try isolating the broadcast interface first
[02:37] <jsgotangco> and see if the client actually gets something
[02:37] <jelkner> i'm getting the same login screen as before
[02:38] <pips1_> jsgotangco: well, eth0 hasn't got an IP assigned at all at the moment... 
[02:38] <jsgotangco> because your aim seems to be that your ltsp client gets internet access from the eth1 interface (which should be eth0's gateway)
[02:38] <pips1_> right
[02:38] <highvoltage> jelkner: there was some problems, I don't think ogra removed them
[02:38] <jsgotangco> pips1_: i think that's the problem, from the diagram, eth0 is your dhcpd
[02:38] <highvoltage> jelkner: if it's not there, please file a bug
[02:39] <jelkner> highvoltage: will do
[02:39] <jelkner> but i'll wait til the official release, yes?
[02:39] <highvoltage> nope. any time is good :)
[02:39] <highvoltage> sooner is usually better.
[02:39] <jsgotangco> today's build is most likely the official release
[02:39] <highvoltage> most likely
[02:40] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: did you receive my email?
[02:40] <jsgotangco> lol
[02:40] <pips1_> jsgotangco: so how do I go about it? Should unplug the internet access on the server? or should I edit a config file or smth?
[02:41] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: I haven't
[02:41] <jsgotangco> wahhh?
[02:41] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: inkululeko email
[02:41] <highvoltage> hmmm... it didn't come through
[02:42] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:42] <jsgotangco> ok
[02:42] <highvoltage> did you spell my name right? lots of people spell it wrong.
[02:42] <jsgotangco> well i just replied to your email yseterday
[02:43] <jsgotangco> unless you spelled your reply to wrong
[02:43] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:43] <pips1_> "<jsgotangco> try isolating the broadcast interface first" <-- how?
[02:43] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: anyways, i wanted to ask if you guys in tuxlabs in tsf before had student performance data before and after tuxlabs implementation
[02:44] <jsgotangco> pips1_: disable it, and look into dhcpd.conf if its set correctly, the best way is to just turn it off with ifconfig
[02:44] <jsgotangco> the restart the network
[02:44] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: the problem is that we've never done a proper before, we're going to do it for the first time nect year when we roll out into a new province
[02:45] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: really? as in nil?
[02:45] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: it's a big issue at the moment, data from our competitor (that uses Windows in labs) were reported last month, and the report shows that there's been no significant improvement
[02:45] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: not even a sort of "joe sucked in math 3 months ago, but after the tuxlabs rollout, his math grades improved by this percentage"
[02:45] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: the very, very first tuxlabs weren't used for educational purposes, so it wasn't part of the scope
[02:45] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: we have some of that yes
[02:46] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: would it be because tuxlabs focused more on hardware structure rather than content?
[02:46] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: initially it did, the focus moved to content only 1.5 years into the project
[02:46] <highvoltage> from 2002 to late 2003, there was little to no content in the labs.
[02:47] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: because in our side, we're not really hot on hardware but our content is solid, we're torn between actually delivering hardware or just improving the content
[02:47] <highvoltage> back then it was the basic kde edu and gcompris, no localised content, no wikipedia, no government approved curriculum...
[02:47] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: the content is more important, imho
[02:47] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: we learned that the hard way :)
[02:47] <jsgotangco> its also because our video content is govenment curriculum
[02:48] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: and we could make it cross-platform
[02:48] <highvoltage> from a technical perspective, projects like Edubuntu takes care of many of the difficult things.
[02:48] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: excellent
[02:48] <pips1_> Kamping_Kaiser: which homepage? 
[02:48] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: so the packaging most likely is that we just dump all content in an ltsp server
[02:48] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: is it specific to your area? or would it work anywhere?
[02:48] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: its specific
[02:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> pips1_, http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/sabayon and http://www.gnome.org/projects/sabayon/
[02:48] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: the videos themselves are localised
[02:48] <highvoltage> ltsp does make life much, much easier in the labs.
[02:49] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: but we're talking of at least 200 episodes of combined math and science at primary level
[02:49] <pips1_> *click* and *click*
[02:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> i like the readme though:   "Hello I'm Daniel Veillard and I pronounce Sabayon 'Sa-ba-yon'"
[02:50] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: ive actually made a slax demo cd just for proof of concept *shudder*
[02:50] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: ah right, sorry, I'm multitasking here. video is tough on thin clients. that's why the diskless-fat-client spec is so important to me
[02:50] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: ogra is taking it very seriously, and is addement to add it to feisty
[02:50] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: im not looking at edgy here, its actually feisty or feisty+1
[02:50] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: when are you looking at roll-out?
[02:51] <jsgotangco> because digitising the video itself eats so much resources
[02:51] <jsgotangco> and combing through wikipedia
[02:51] <jsgotangco> not to mention creating relevant exercises in keduca for isntance
[02:51] <pips1_> Kamping_Kaiser: hehe
[02:52] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: yep
[02:52] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: and its not just dumping the video here, i'm looking into *streaming* the video from the ltsp server (if its possible)
[02:52] <jsgotangco> because if the video is loaded in memory, it'll suck so hard
[02:52] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: from a technical perspective, there will be two additional layars possible above ltsp
[02:53] <jsgotangco> and each episode is like 18 - 22 minutes long
[02:53] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: local apps, where you could run a video program locally, and stream it from the server and process locally (would be best for you, I think), and the diskless fat, that runs everything locally
[02:53] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: the whole video doesn't need to load in memory, at least
[02:54] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: on diskless fat, when you say fat, it about hardware resources?
[02:54] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: yes. diskless fat requires ~800mhz processor, ~384MB RAM
[02:54] <jsgotangco> ekkk
[02:55] <highvoltage> the fat clients boot as a full machine, they just use the network as storage.
[02:55] <highvoltage> so they look like they are thin clients, but they're not.
[02:55] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: what kind of specs will these pc's have
[02:55] <highvoltage> (the clients)
[02:55] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: well, they're new machines actually
[02:55] <highvoltage> for playing video locally, you'll only need a high end PII and about 128MB RAM
[02:55] <jsgotangco> but we're also expecting old hardare PIII'sh specs
[02:55] <highvoltage> oh cool.
[02:55] <highvoltage> for new machines, diskless fat is fantastic.
[02:56] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: ive actually received initial batch and they're core duo
[02:56] <highvoltage> we're running it at two schools currently and on 10 of the digital doorways (soon to be 50)
[02:56] <jsgotangco> just no OS
[02:56] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: WOW
[02:56] <highvoltage> it would be a shame to use those as pure thin clients
[02:56] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i said i'll just use them as a grid heh
[02:56] <jsgotangco> j/k
[02:57] <highvoltage> :)
[02:57] <jsgotangco> anyway they came from Acer and we have a hundred of them coming
[02:57] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: e-mail me your physical address, and I can mail you a DVD with my diskless fat image, then you can play around with it a bit
[02:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> gnight pips1_ 
[02:58] <jsgotangco> but they're so full featured i can just run vista on them
[02:58] <jsgotangco> :D
[02:58] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: we've streamed video with the digital doorway project, and it works perfectly. we can even play dvd movies over the network :)
[02:58] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: but they're stand alone machines right?
[02:59] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: they boot from the network, just like with LTSP. except all applications are executed locally, so the local CPU/RAM is used.
[02:59] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: anyway, i would appreciate if you can send student performance metrics of sorts even if its very rough 
[02:59] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: but they have no hard disks inside
[02:59] <pips1_> cu Kamping_Kaiser
[02:59] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: ok, we only have surveys and some letters from the schools, I'll get Inge, our project administrator to mail you some data
[03:00] <jsgotangco> thanks
[03:01] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: how did you integrate video and contextual info?
[03:02] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: we have scripts that generate Xfce menus for them
[03:02] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: although, we'll probably use firefox with the mplayer plugin in the future
[03:03] <highvoltage> the mplayer plugin makes it possible to integrate it into a web page the same way that they do it with windows mplayer in IE
[03:05] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i haven't tried FF, but konqueror already does that without any plugin
[03:06] <jsgotangco> (well i think it uses kaffeine)
[03:07] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: what i did was just do everything on xhtml, use tabs in between content, and at the end, there's a test done in javascript
[03:08] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: then i also made it run on portable firefox in a cd that goes straight to the frontpage of the application
[03:08] <jsgotangco> so that any computer even if it doesn't have firefox, it'll still run (on windows that is)
[03:09] <jsgotangco> its very hackish but enough to inspire the edu people
[03:09] <highvoltage> it sounds like a decent approach.
[03:10] <highvoltage> what's hackish about it?
[03:10] <jsgotangco> i did everything by hand lol
[03:10] <jsgotangco> i need to automate the creation of content
[03:10] <highvoltage> ah, so it just needs some automation and cleaning. :)
[03:11] <highvoltage> in South Africa, most of the big content providers also do *everything* by hand.
[03:11] <jsgotangco> a web approach seems the most sensible
[03:11] <highvoltage> so don't feel to bad :)
[03:11] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: sure but they're not an army of one person (unlike me)
[03:12] <highvoltage> yep, which makes it even worse! (that they don't automate their stuff)
[03:12] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: do you think it makes sense that I used a browser?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> to edu people, it doesn't matter at all though
[03:13] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: considering that you're currently just one person, and that this needs to be cross-platform, and that this project has a deadline, yes, I think it's the best tool for the job
[03:13] <jsgotangco> and i think it makes it more extensible in a way
[03:13] <highvoltage> edu people want something that works easily and reliably.
[03:13] <highvoltage> you can give them that with a web interface.
[03:13] <jsgotangco> yeah, the test scripts are really a pain to do by hand though :D
[03:15] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: although the initial design looked strangely like the opencd though
[03:16] <pips1_> jelkner: ping
[03:16] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: I need to get back to work now
[03:16] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: but I want to talk to you about this some more, since a large part of my work consists of similar stuff
[03:16] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: ok thanks for the chat
[03:16] <highvoltage> we can trade secret weapons :)
[03:17] <jsgotangco> yup and split the royalties muahahaha
[03:17] <jsgotangco> j/k
[03:49] <nixternal> well hello there!
[03:50] <bddebian> Howdy folks
[03:50] <bddebian> Heya nixternal
[03:50] <highvoltage> hey nixternal and bddebian 
[03:50] <nixternal> boo is more like if im not mistaken ;)
[03:50] <jsgotangco> nixternal: howdy
[03:50] <nixternal> hiya highvoltage, low wattage
[03:50] <sbalneav> Morning all
[03:50] <nixternal> ahh jsgotangco
[03:50] <bddebian> Heya highvoltage, sbalneav
[03:50] <nixternal> sbalneav: wasabi
[03:50] <jsgotangco> sbalneav: daddy!
[03:50] <highvoltage> morning sbalneav!
[03:50] <highvoltage> *grouphug*
[03:50] <nixternal> heh, this is like the beginning of a conference call
[03:50] <nixternal> scarey
[03:51] <sbalneav> hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi
[03:51] <nixternal> haha there you go
[03:51] <jsgotangco> nixternal: if you're going to UDS-MTV, make sure you follow sbalneav 
[03:51] <highvoltage> MTV?
[03:51] <highvoltage> UDS is so not a commercial for MTV
[03:52] <bddebian> hehe
[03:52] <highvoltage> (sorry, lame joke)
[03:52] <sbalneav> Now look at them yoyo's, that's the way you do it.  Write edubuntu down at MTV
[03:52] <nixternal> well, it seems that they will not approve my "absence" from school...i guess this is what you get when you go to school on the government's dime..but i earned it..Illinois Veterans Grant and the GI Bill == money in my pocket and free college
[03:53] <sbalneav> We got some in-core microsoft killers, custom software delivery...
[03:53] <nixternal> all is not lost though, as it looks like the ChiGLUG will be getting RMS during that week, so at least I will have a geekfest here as well
[03:54] <jelkner> pips1_: i'm teaching
[03:54] <jsgotangco> RMS? jeez
[03:54] <jelkner> i'm still here, but i have students
[03:54] <sbalneav> Hey jelkner!
[03:54] <jsgotangco> jelkner: how have you been doing?
[03:54] <nixternal> ya, i woke up to an inbox full of "WE GOT THE COLLEGE TO PAY FOR RMS! IT IS APPROVED"
[03:54] <jelkner> sbalneav: hi!
[03:54] <jsgotangco> nixternal: scary
[03:55] <nixternal> ya, especially since his interview this week, about puting constraints on IBM and other companies that are using Linux
[03:55] <willvdl> highvoltage, heya
[03:55] <sbalneav> nixternal: If you want your picture taken with him, remember: bring cash :)
[03:55] <jsgotangco> nixternal: well its not about his views most of the time, but his attitude per se
[03:55] <nixternal> i don't want nothing taken with him, but i enjoy listening to him talk
[03:56] <jsgotangco> he writes well though
[03:56] <nixternal> he snapped at me at a LinuxConf years back, and it took every ounce of patience i had to not go southside on him
[03:57] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:57] <nixternal> and im from the "weeeeessssst siiiiaadee" </icecube voiceover>
[03:57] <highvoltage> hey willvdl 
[03:58] <highvoltage> nixternal: congrats. I'm a big fan of RMS.
[03:58] <sbalneav> I'm a huge fan of his ideals.
[03:58] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:58] <sbalneav> The man himself.... not so much :)
[03:58] <highvoltage> he has a cool beard too.
[03:58] <nixternal> well, his ideals kind of failed him this week during an interview
[03:58] <jsgotangco> sbalneav: hahahha
[03:59] <jsgotangco> err who is amy jiang?
[03:59] <nixternal> and he used the term "copyright", in which he would enforce companies like IBM in their use of Linux and not GNU/Linux
[04:05] <RichEd> nixternal: you pinged me re a meeting last night ?
[04:05] <nixternal> did i?
[04:05] <nixternal> oh
[04:05] <nixternal> that was a couple of nights ago...just wondering about a "handbook" gathering
[04:05] <jsgotangco> RichEd: does your phone accept sms? i sent you one earlier
[04:06] <RichEd> hi jsgotangco : got it :) been busy in spreadsheets ...
[04:06] <nixternal> jsgotangco: quit playing with your phone already
[04:06] <jsgotangco> RichEd: oh good just checking, but you get the idea :D
[04:07] <nixternal> i love my generic proprietary phone that doesn't all me to do anything but talk, text, and take pics ;)
[04:07] <jsgotangco> nixternal: no way, i like extreme connectivity
[04:07] <nixternal> hehe
[04:07] <jsgotangco> nixternal: next target: Nokia N95
[04:07] <RichEd> jsgotangco: I've asked highvoltage for tuXlabs info, and before, and there does not seem to be any results facts ... just a sense that it helps ... but not data study
[04:07] <jsgotangco> RichEd: yeah we talked about it earlier
[04:07] <nixternal> well, we don't have that luxuary here in the us...we get cellular technology after the rest of the world has had it for years
[04:07] <jsgotangco> RichEd: but anything can help
[04:08] <sbalneav> I love my total lack of a cell phone which means when I'm no where near a phone NO ONE CAN CALL ME TO TELL ME THEIR COMPUTOR IS BROKEEN! :)
[04:08] <jsgotangco> nixternal: imagine a phone with 5MP camera and GPS
[04:08] <RichEd> nixternal: yep ... vested interests protecting capex invested in land line infrastructure ... good old lobbyists ;)
[04:08] <jsgotangco> nixternal: our news reporters at work, its actually a requirement :D
[04:08] <nixternal> sbalneav: i am with you there..i just recently picked one up, as i was sick of people saying i was impossible to get a hold of..i told them if you email me, i usually respond within 24 hours ;)
[04:09] <jsgotangco> nixternal: its not broadcast-quality, but with todays mobile networks, we could deliver news very efficiently with these "convergence" devices
[04:12] <nixternal> nice
[04:12] <nixternal> i could deliver absolutely nothing with mine ;)
[04:12] <jsgotangco> nixternal: well we have a segment of the population here that still relies on AM radio
[04:13] <jsgotangco> so such things don't fit much obviously
[04:13] <nixternal> i love my am radio
[04:13] <nixternal> hehe
[04:13] <willvdl> nixternal, if their computer is broken then they presumably can't email you :)
[04:13] <nixternal> willvdl: exactly!
[04:13] <nixternal> ;)
[04:13] <willvdl> silly me
[04:13] <nixternal> haha
[04:14] <willvdl> highvoltage, I'm surprised Riaan didn't figure that one out yet :P
[04:14] <nixternal> i was one of those that had to have the latest and greatest cell phones there was...then i got sick of the bills, the fact i wasn't using everything..and i hated people calling me all the time..so i took a good 2 years of cell phone use off
[04:15] <jsgotangco> i change phones like twice i year, i know its a sickness
[04:15] <nixternal> hehe
[04:17] <jsgotangco> nixternal: i can actually do ssh with this one
[04:17] <jsgotangco> sick
[04:17] <nixternal> now i would love that
[04:17] <nixternal> ssh with a cell phone, umph
[04:17] <jsgotangco> nixternal: it also has python 2.2
[04:18] <pips1> jsgotangco: do you also have a little folding-out keyboard to go with that?
[04:18] <nixternal> jeesh
[04:18] <nixternal> pips1: the phone comes with its own secretary from the way it sounds ;)
[04:18] <pips1> hehe
[04:18] <jsgotangco> pips1: no its a blackberry-type form factor with qwerty and 320x240 qvga
[04:18] <willvdl> jsgotangco, som countries in Africa have up to nine mobile operators with no convergence. You often see people carrying way more than one cellphone
[04:19] <pips1> ooomph
[04:19] <jsgotangco> nixternal: the web browser uses khtml rendering engine
[04:20] <nixternal> oh, well i know khtml rendering, and just how good that is </sarcasm>
[04:20] <jsgotangco> willvdl: i think majority of asian countries are more advanced on the mobile front aside from europe
[04:20] <nixternal> that is the one downfall then ;)
[04:20] <jelkner> is local usb device support on thin-clients in edgy?
[04:20] <jelkner> it doesn't seem to be working
[04:20] <jelkner> i thought ogra said earlier it was there
[04:21] <pips1> I had it working here
[04:21] <jsgotangco> its part of the spec targets for edgy, although i admit i haven't tried it
[04:21] <jsgotangco> we actually got something working during paris
[04:22] <jelkner> pips1: how does it work?  do you just insert a usb stick and it appears on the desktop?
[04:22] <willvdl> jsgotangco, African countries opened their doors wide to operators over the past few years with no thought to policy, frameworks or competition. 
[04:22] <pips1> jelkner: yes
[04:23] <jsgotangco> willvdl: but it seems the continent is one of the fastest to adopt mobile networks and use it for different market segments/applications
[04:23] <willvdl> they have to, there is nothing else
[04:23] <willvdl> with no policies and backhand deals going on, the result is somewhat chaotic at best
[04:24] <willvdl> honestly, I know of guys who carry nine cellphones...
[04:24] <jsgotangco> wow
[04:24] <jsgotangco> ive read how it thrives in somalia too
[04:24] <jsgotangco> but since there is no taxation to speak off
[04:24] <willvdl> consider a country with a population of 5million and nine mobile operators :)
[04:25] <jsgotangco> crazy
[04:25] <willvdl> the result is that wifi doesn't really get in except in the rural settings
[04:25] <jsgotangco> willvdl: are mobile networks utilised for education as well?
[04:25] <willvdl> programmes are starting...
[04:26] <jsgotangco> it seems you can get mobile data there cheap
[04:26] <willvdl> but then you're often looking at gprs comms
[04:26] <jsgotangco> at least you can connect at dial-up quality level
[04:26] <willvdl> which is fine for specific purposes
[04:26] <willvdl> but I'm not sure how much broadband there is
[04:26] <pips1> jelkner: if you file a bug, let me know the bug number, please, thanks
[04:26] <willvdl> It also depends on what side of the continent you're on.
[04:27] <jsgotangco> willvdl: just a wild experiment on our side, we streamed our edu content on HSDPA
[04:27] <willvdl> and?
[04:27] <jsgotangco> we got a throughput of around 2+Mbps
[04:27] <jsgotangco> pretty good
[04:28] <willvdl> I thought HSDPA was limited to 1.8
[04:28] <jsgotangco> it can go around 3+ i think
[04:28] <willvdl> ooh, you're right, just looking at the spec
[04:28] <jsgotangco> 3G can't go beyond 2 i think
[04:29] <willvdl> is it not more expensive to do it that way?
[04:29] <jsgotangco> its not so bad
[04:29] <willvdl> hmmm, one can always strike bulk deals with the operators I guess
[04:29] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:29] <willvdl> nice
[04:29] <jsgotangco> well its experimental
[04:30] <willvdl> The good news is most of Africa adopted CDMA
[04:30] <jsgotangco> oh thats better
[04:30] <willvdl> so there's no legacy
[04:30] <willvdl> good for QualCom :)
[04:31] <jsgotangco> you can get better mileage with evdo
[04:31] <jsgotangco> and its already a proven method of delivery
[04:31] <willvdl> not familiar with it really
[04:32] <jsgotangco> i think the new ones coming can go almost 5Mbps downlink
[04:32] <willvdl> only familiar with cdma from military spread-spectrum stuff
[04:34] <willvdl> familiar with MediaFLO?
[04:34] <jsgotangco> i think ive heard of it, qualcomm thing right?
[04:35] <jsgotangco> cdma got killed here because of the killer app of gsm
[04:35] <willvdl> yip. Oh, it's evdo
[04:35] <willvdl> killer app?
[04:35] <jsgotangco> sms
[04:35] <jsgotangco> hehe
[04:35] <willvdl> ah :)
[04:35] <willvdl> heard of mixit?
[04:36] <jsgotangco> no
[04:36] <willvdl> lovely littlw java (I think) app that does IM on the phone across protocols
[04:36] <jsgotangco> hmm thats interesting
[04:37] <willvdl> S.Africa company. Huge subscribers, cuts costs (not sms based) etc
[04:37] <willvdl> v nice example of "convergence"
[04:38] <jsgotangco> 3G data cost is quite cheap here now, mobile IM use is growing
[04:38] <jsgotangco> you can actually do a lot of data stuff even on prepay now
[04:38] <willvdl> makes sense. a lot of kids don't even have email addresses here :)
[04:39] <willvdl> real pop-culture thing
[04:39] <jsgotangco> but most still dont use email on phones because its not "push" technology by nature
[04:40] <willvdl> I've also heard that qualcomm is contending the patent rights on wimax
[04:41] <jsgotangco> one of the local school connectivty projects is pinning its hopes on wimax for connectivity
[04:41] <jsgotangco> (gilas.org)
[04:42] <jsgotangco> we still suffer from "last mile" connectivity issues
[04:42] <willvdl> eish, I get so many ocnflicting opinions on wimax vs wifi
[04:42] <willvdl> conflicting rather
[04:44] <jsgotangco> we could connect a lot more schools in the rural areas with wimax
[04:45] <jsgotangco> and would probably be cheaper in the long run
[04:51] <pips1> I'm re-installing dapper to test the dist-upgrade
[04:52] <pips1> I finished the dapper install, however, dhcp isn't running on the server. strange. Do I need to start it manually?
[04:54] <willvdl> jsgotangco, can one roam on wimax?
[04:55] <jsgotangco> willvdl: well its pretty much like wifi on steroids, with a wider coverage
[04:56] <jsgotangco> (we talking about kilometers of coverage)
[04:56] <willvdl> yeah but I think there are some issues around mobility still
[04:57] <jsgotangco> i think its pretty much classified as fixed wireless
[04:59] <willvdl> yeah, but then with the range, it's probably not an issue
[05:11] <highvoltage> willvdl: sorry, I can't scroll up that far. what didn't riaan figure out?
[05:11] <willvdl> haha. nah just a support desk joke about emailing to say your computer is broken
[05:12] <RichEd> ogra: has any plan been put in place to update the download links for Edubutu to include edgy ?
[05:12] <RichEd> newz2000 is busy with pages now for Ubuntu.
[05:12] <ogra> RichEd, how do you mean ?
[05:14] <RichEd> ogra: can you pop into #ubuntu-matt and we can all chat quickly ?
[05:21] <jsgotangco> RichEd: do you mean for edubuntu.org?
[05:21] <RichEd> yep jsgotangco : pop into  #ubuntu-matt if you'd like to join the discussion.
[05:22] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: what was the login page again for the website?
[05:28] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: hmm do i actually have edit rights to the main pages
[05:28] <jsgotangco> ?
[05:29] <P3L|C4N0> greetings
[05:32] <juliux> RichEd, ogra  i will support the edubuntu edgy iso via bittorrent again with my rootserver;)
[05:32] <RichEd> thanks :)
[05:32] <ogra> cool
[05:32] <jsgotangco> nice
[05:32] <jsgotangco> bittorrent always helps
[05:34] <juliux> i have 30gb traffic left
[05:34] <RichEd> jsgotangco: do you have edit rights ? please confirm or else we will need to get hold of pips1 or highvoltage / jonathan2 at the meeting tonight
[05:34] <juliux> and an uni account;)
[05:34] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: you're supposed to have
[05:34] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: pips1 edited the access rights a while ago
[05:35] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i dont see any "content" menu nor able to edit the pages that i made before
[05:35] <jsgotangco> i get access denied on /admin
[05:49] <Amaranth> ugh, we need something you can subscribe evolution to for meetings
[05:50] <Amaranth> instead of a monthly ical that i always forget to redownload and never had CC meetings on it
[05:53] <juliux> Amaranth, evolutions ical support is realy bad;)
[05:53] <Amaranth> heh
[05:53] <juliux> Amaranth, use sunbird;)
[05:53] <Amaranth> i just want something i can subscribe to
[05:53] <Amaranth> sunbird would have to be running all the time
[05:53] <Amaranth> unless it has e-d-s integration
[05:53] <juliux> hehe
[05:53] <Amaranth> i want my clock to have my meeting info :P
[05:55] <smile2me> Ltsp anyone?
[05:56] <highvoltage> yes please.
[05:56] <smile2me> i'm gettint the tftp file not found error
[05:57] <lucasvo> .w 14
[05:58] <smile2me> help anyone?
[06:00] <smile2me> guess not
[06:02] <highvoltage> ugh. busy talking to RichEd in other channel and missed smile2me's question
[06:04] <RichEd> highvoltage: I'll get some text ready about the fact that there is only downloads available and no CDs via shipit
[06:05] <RichEd> highvoltage: what time does the release normally go out on the "promised day" ?
[06:06] <highvoltage> RichEd: normally as early as possible, as soon as everything is ready
[06:06] <highvoltage> it has varied from 10am-12 noon for ubuntu in the past
[06:06] <highvoltage> and edubuntu followed a few hours later
[06:08] <RichEd> highvoltage: thanks ... that means we will be able to tie up the loose ends at the meeting tonight ... ready to go on the morrow.
[06:09] <BonBonTheJon> are you guys admins, because I have some text for the handbook
[06:12] <BonBonTheJon> it is for Concepts: Networks and Networking
[06:12] <BonBonTheJon> I have it at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/28260/
[06:12] <BonBonTheJon> It's not totally done, but its a good start
[06:12] <BonBonTheJon> I have to go, but if you guys get a chance, look at it, and tell me what you think
[06:15] <highvoltage> BonBonTheJon: ok, please come again later
[06:18] <RichEd> BonBonTheJon: nixternal is doing handbook : nixternal look here when you are around please: BonBonTheJon> it is for Concepts: Networks and Networking
 I have it at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/28260/
[06:31] <cliebow> google.com
[06:32] <ogra> cliebow, !! you here ! :)
[06:54] <nixternal> i will take a look at here in few RichEd and BonBonTheJon ;)  thanks!
[06:57] <cliebow> ogra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[07:15] <cliebow>  ogra: that is some wild bootsplah screen
[07:16] <ogra> hehe
[07:16] <ogra> cbx33 made it
[07:45] <RichEd> hi LaserJock 
[07:46] <LaserJock> RichEd!
[07:47] <RichEd> LaserJock: :) did you get my default apps and menu mail the other day ?
[07:47] <cliebow> ogra:wont edgy start without a valid ldapserver...?
[07:48] <cliebow>  having altered nsswitch.conf
[07:49] <ogra> it should work, but i must admit i dont use ldap (yet) its a target for feaisty (edgy+1)
[07:50] <Burgwork> cliebow: it will start, it will just be very slow
[07:50] <Burgwork> cliebow: it needs to timeout trying to contact the ldap server, which takes about 3 minutes
[07:50] <LaserJock> RichEd: argg, yeah. It's not easy. and my mail is down right now
[07:50] <RichEd> no rush ... as long as we can chat about it some time :)
[07:51] <LaserJock> well, we can chat about it now
[07:51] <LaserJock> I just can't read your email right now
[07:51] <cliebow>  heh..it timed out about ten minutes ago checkr\ed the fdile system..and now just sittimg there
[07:51] <Burgwork> ogra: is edubuntu-as-a-public-computer on the agenda? are their specs for that?
[07:52] <LaserJock> RichEd: just remind me real quick as to what you want to do
[07:53] <ogra> Burgwork: liek a webkiosk ?
[07:53] <ogra> *like
[07:53] <RichEd> LaserJock: too much happening ... we can chat at UDS
[07:53] <Burgwork> webkiosk and full-on public computer desktop
[07:53] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins ... thats a general feature i'll add to feisty ... doesnt need speccing ...
[07:54] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok, np
[07:54] <ogra> its only a handfull of lines to add to a new ltsp plugin ...
[07:54] <Burgwork> web kiosk isn't hard, just use ephy's lockdown
[07:54] <LaserJock> my UDS plans are changing I think
[07:54] <RichEd> ogra: did you gate a chance to check out the release announcement for accuracy ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyAnnouncementEdubuntu?
[07:54] <Burgwork> desktiop is slightly different
[07:54] <LaserJock> I've got too much stuff to do at work
[07:54] <ogra> RichEd: i didnt edit it yet 
[07:54] <ogra> bu i'll do
[07:55] <LaserJock> so I think I'm going to just be in Mountain View for Sunday and Monday
[07:55] <ogra> am busy with the tests atm
[07:55] <RichEd> ogra: no problem
[07:55] <ogra> LaserJock: oh no !
[07:55] <LaserJock> I know
[07:55] <LaserJock> I'm not needed much though so it'll be ok I'm sure :-)
[07:56] <LaserJock> I just want to say hello to everybody and discuss some specific topics
[07:57] <LaserJock> MOTU and non-LTSP edubuntu stuff
[07:57] <Laser_away> bbl, emergency meeting at school :-)
[08:25] <neurogeek> lguerra, thanks for your help with contacting mhz
[08:25] <cbx33> is mhz ok?
[08:25] <cbx33> havn't seen him in ages
[08:26] <highvoltage> I mean... about him
[08:26] <cbx33> I did ask a few weeks ago
[08:26] <highvoltage> pips1 too
[08:26] <cbx33> brb
[08:26] <neurogeek> cbx33, i think he is!
[08:29] <cbx33> cliebow, is the usplash ok ?
[08:29] <cbx33>  :0
[08:45] <cliebow> it is Cool!..took a little getting used to though..boss thought id set fire to the monitor!!
[08:46] <cbx33> hahaha
[08:46] <cliebow> Burgwork:with any luck bind_policy soft in libnss-ldap.conf will help
[08:49] <cliebow> yes..tht\atr made life a heck of a lor\t easier
[08:56] <RichEd> hi pips ... we will need to edit a couple of pages on www.edubuntu.org tomorrow.
[09:35] <ogra> RichEd: i wont attend teh meeting today for obvious iso testing reasons ...
[09:36] <LaserJock> ack, is there a Edubuntu meeting today?
[09:36] <ogra> well, there is oine scheduled in 30min
[09:36] <LaserJock> yikes
[09:36] <LaserJock> I've been in a meeting all morning
[09:37] <LaserJock> it's one of those days :-)
[09:37] <RichEd> ogra: that's fine ... it will be a very short update meeting ... I need to be up early tomorrow to sort out the press release info and make sure the web site pages are all linked properly & accurate
[09:37] <RichEd> ogra: can I just ask you to make sure you are happy with the announcement page ... so that I have it ready & accurate when I wake up
[09:38] <highvoltage> RichEd: where is it?
[09:38] <ogra> yep, as i said, i'll care later tonight
[09:38] <ogra> i doubt i'll go to sleep tonight ... kets see how fast i am ...
[09:38] <ogra> *let's
[09:38] <highvoltage> ok
[09:38] <RichEd> highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyAnnouncementEdubuntu
[09:39] <ogra> the ubuntu specific stuff needs to get dropped and we need to add more detailed edubuntu features ...
[09:40] <ogra> (f-spot and the like)
[09:41] <RichEd> ogra: I was not sure what ubuntu features will carry up into Edubuntu - must that entire section drop off ?
[09:41] <RichEd> ogra: and whatever is easiest for you ... if you want to send me a text email, I am happy to edit the page and neaten ... 
[09:41] <ogra> dont worry i'll clean that up
[09:42] <ogra> no, i'm fine with editing it, just have a look at it for grammar and typos tomorrow ...
[09:43] <RichEd> [09:44] <juliux> RichEd, a short meeting is good;)
[09:45] <LaserJock> RichEd: you know it'll got 1 hr at least ;-)
[09:45] <LaserJock> you can't say "short meeting" without it doing that
[09:46] <RichEd> LaserJock: I will keep my inflammatory ideas and comments to myself ... that will keep it short ;)
[09:46] <juliux> LaserJock, we can ask ubotu to kick us all after 30min ;)
[09:46] <LaserJock> RichEd: hehe
[09:47] <RichEd> for tomorrow: I have to be fresh for release email, release page updates, german hotel booking, german visa application, and write a 30 min presentation ... and that's all due before lunch time 
[09:47] <sbalneav> Can I propose my own inflammatory ideas and comments then? "The Illuminati are stealing my brainwaves!!!!"
[09:48] <nixternal> whoa..almost forgot about the meeting
[09:49] <highvoltage> nixternal: how dare you!
[09:49] <nixternal> hehe
[09:49] <nixternal> im so busy right now
[09:50] <RichEd> busy + multi-tasking = lots of stuff falls off the back of the bus ... I know the feeling
[09:50] <nixternal> i have 2 tests and a class tonight, so im leaving in 2 hours, i have the release page to build for Kubuntu tonight, helping with the art server, and i was interested in becoming an official "part" of the edubuntu community ;)
[09:50] <nixternal> haha RichEd...that is why i leave that emergency exit door closed and locked
[09:51] <nixternal> can't let it fall off
[09:52] <nixternal> hehe, i quit smoking years ago ;)
[09:53] <RichEd> well this one will be my first for the day ... and at 21:52 that's not too bad
[09:53] <RichEd> [09:53] <nixternal> heh, keep telling yourself that ;)
[09:59] <RichEd> [10:13] <sorush20> hi what is the best graph drwaing tool
[10:14] <sbalneav> GRAPH drawing, or GRAPHICS drawing?
[10:32] <sorush20> sbalneav: graphs plotting for scientific data
[10:32] <stgraber> gnuplot ?
[10:33] <sorush20> thanks
[10:35] <LaserJock> there is also a gnome frontend for gnuplot called plotdrop
[10:40] <floydwilde> what do you have to do after installing to get ltsp working?
[10:41] <floydwilde> I did nothing except edit the dhcp file to match my network and a thin clinet boots into a login, but no logins work
[10:51] <ogra> floydwilde: dapper (6.06) ?
[10:52] <sbalneav> floydwilde: You might have to execute the command:
[10:52] <sbalneav> sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys 
[11:03] <floydwilde> yes its dapper
[11:04] <ogra> then do what sbalneav
[11:04] <ogra> said
[11:04] <floydwilde> what about ltsp-build-client?
[11:05] <floydwilde> guess not since I can login now
[11:06] <ogra> :)
[11:07] <floydwilde> thanks!
[11:09] <ogra> oooh, hi edubuntugirl
[11:09] <highvoltage> :)
[11:09] <ogra> how nice to see her :)
[11:09] <highvoltage> I can't make her say anything at the moment, but if you talk directly to her she'll talk back
[11:09] <highvoltage> she's back permanently now :)
[11:09] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: hi there
[11:09] <edubuntugirl> hola, highvoltage!
[11:09] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: ogra
[11:09] <edubuntugirl> ogra is Oliver Grawert
[11:10] <ogra> :)
[11:10] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: RichEd is Richard Weideman
[11:10] <edubuntugirl> highvoltage: sure thing
[11:10] <ogra> she didnt forget about me :)
[11:10] <highvoltage> yeah :)
[11:10] <pips1> hey edubuntugirl
[11:10] <edubuntugirl> hi, pips1!
[11:10] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: google edubuntu
[11:10] <edubuntugirl> highvoltage: Google found 'Edubuntu Home Page | edubuntu', at http://www.edubuntu.org/
[11:10] <highvoltage> great.
[11:10] <pips1> :)
[11:10] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: ogra++
[11:11] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: karma ogra
[11:11] <edubuntugirl> highvoltage: ogra has karma of 1
[11:11] <ogra> edubuntugirl: google Oliver Grawert
[11:11] <edubuntugirl> ogra: Google found 'Oliver Grawert', at http://www.grawert.net/weblog.cgi
[11:11] <ogra> heh
[11:11] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: lsmod
[11:11] <edubuntugirl> highvoltage: Module list: Strip Auth Hate Ignore Modules Perl Rehash Irc SQLSeen Kernel Rot13 ITime UKChart GoogleCmp StonerName RFC Urban DiscDate BZFlag RoShamBo Timer NickOMeter Greet Google Lotto Insult FileFactoid Swear Ping Fortune Exchange Announce RWAR EtherCode GoogleCalc Divine Dvorak Slashdot Units Logs TraceRoute Say BashOrg MemoFor HowFar Babel NMBLookup Jwhois Morse LastFM Crypt SQLFactoid SQLFactoidupdate SQLFactoidforget SQLFactoidsea
[11:12] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: tell ogra remember to ping me when you get this
[11:12] <edubuntugirl> Righto, highvoltage!
[11:12] <highvoltage> ogra: hello
[11:12] <ogra> hello ?
[11:12] <edubuntugirl> ogra: by the way, highvoltage told me to tell you 'remember to ping me when you get this' 22 seconds ago (on Wed Oct 25 23:11:49 2006)
[11:12] <ogra> heh
[11:12] <highvoltage> ^^^ memo function :)
[11:12] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: seen pips1 
[11:12] <edubuntugirl> pips1 was last seen on #edubuntu 2 minutes and 9 seconds ago, saying: :) [Wed Oct 25 23:10:26 2006] 
[11:13] <ogra> can she have a "last said" mode ?
[11:13] <pips1> nice
[11:13] <ogra> ah, ubercool
[11:13] <highvoltage> ogra: what's that?
[11:13] <highvoltage> like the seen?
[11:13] <ogra> what you just did :)
[11:13] <highvoltage> cool :)
[11:14] <ogra> bbl
[11:17] <highvoltage> goodnight, #edubuntu. the 15-20 minute meeting is a bit long for me :)
[11:17] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: goodnight
[11:17] <edubuntugirl> goodnight, highvoltage. I'll keep an eye out for the MS spies while you sleep.
[11:17] <highvoltage> thank you.
[11:17] <BonBonTheJon> lol
[11:18] <pips1> hehe
[11:18] <pips1> nn highvoltage
[11:19] <highvoltage> nn pips1 
[11:20] <sbalneav> edubuntugirl: sbalneav
[11:20] <edubuntugirl> sbalneav: what?
[11:20] <sbalneav> That's usually the reaction I get from girls :)
[11:21] <highvoltage> edubuntugirl: sbalneav is Scott Balneaves
[11:21] <edubuntugirl> highvoltage: k
[11:49] <RichEd> LaserJock: we could have pointed sorush to the new forum: <sorush20> sbalneav: graphs plotting for scientific data
[11:50] <LaserJock> yes, check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuScientists
[11:51] <LaserJock> IMO we need one of those for Education
[11:51] <RichEd> again ... a busy page ... but crisp ... crispness makes me more patient on web pages
[11:51] <LaserJock> yes, it needs to be split up a bit
[11:51] <LaserJock> but there is a lot of nice content
[11:52] <RichEd> agreed ... added to the list :)
[11:53] <RichEd> f.y.i. the menu mail thread was almost that I want something almost exactly like this page for Edubuntu:
[11:54] <RichEd> = when you install Edubuntu, you get the following applications on your desktop ready to use !
[11:54] <RichEd> = when you install Edubuntu, you get the following applications you can install with a few clicks from Universe
[11:54] <RichEd> etc.
[11:55] <LaserJock> mhm
[11:55] <RichEd> That shows the true meaning of "Open Source is so much more than a desktop"
[11:55] <LaserJock> yeah, that's the thing I'm trying to figure out. It's not just what you have on your desktop, it's what you have "access" to as well
[11:57] <RichEd> Most people think of an operating system install as being MS Windows with a bunch of (trivial) accessories ...
[11:57] <RichEd> So if we say "open source free operating system" people only assume that they get the same but for free
[11:58] <RichEd> When in fact, if you stick our CD into your PC, you can go so very much further ....
[11:58] <RichEd> And we need to get that message across = for Open Source
[11:59] <RichEd> And youu can go so very much further, so much easier
[11:59] <RichEd> We need to get that message across = for Ubuntu and its variants
[12:00] <pygi> :P
[12:00] <pips1> RichEd: I read an interesting post today on the subject of installing applications on windows vs. on ubuntu/linux in general... Although I thought the original poster missed the point, it still got me thinking about an interesting topic from another angle... 
[12:01] <RichEd> pygi: expand on the comment: it still got me thinking about an interesting topic from another angle... 
[12:02] <pygi> RichEd: ?
[12:02] <pips1> Is Ubuntu an Operating System? http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2006-10-04/is-ubuntu-an-operating-system/
[12:03] <RichEd> sorry  .. me is going mad slowly ... I read pips1 comment and pygi comment as the same person ...
[12:03] <LaserJock> woah, me too
[12:03] <pips1> basically, where I see a real benefit in the Debian/Ubuntu way, is that you not only install the software, but you also get security updates for all that software... 
[12:05] <pips1> I think most software users don't realise this/don't think about software in that way, i.e. that there is a certain life cycle involved, and security issues with every software... of coure, software developers are well aware of this, but I don't think users in general
[12:05] <RichEd> pips1: and you can select from your desktop via Add/Remove without having to go hunt down web pages
[12:06] <RichEd> And when you find the application, it is click, okay, thanks, forget about it
[12:06] <LaserJock> yeah, and it won't have viruses or spy bots in it
[12:06] <LaserJock> I was just trying to find a wallpaper/theme for Windows XP and got a ton of junk
[12:08] <pips1> I imagine the "microsoft user" way of thinking is kind of "short sighted" / practical in a way that they just want their daily needs to be taken care of (i.e. productivity apps, email, browser), and in addition, they want some funny/usefully "extras", whatever they come across or other people tell them about (I'm thinking viral email stuff, funny movie clips, etc, but also little applications that do something which is helpful to the user,
[12:08] <pips1>  at least at the time they hear about it first..)
[12:08] <LaserJock> well, if you don't know any better
[12:11] <lguerra> hi all
[12:11] <pips1> but users don't think about *maintenance* of software as such, I think. They expect a PC to have a certain life expectency, say 3 years, and they don't look any further than that, when they select one of those "non-essiential"/non-daily-use apps... they download it, install it, use it (or not) and then might forget it or simply use it at certain times. But I don't think they will think about "upgrading" that little app to the latest versio
[12:11] <pips1> n, or remotely think about making sure they get *security updates* for that app...
[12:13] <pips1> ^^^ which is of course a great feature of Debian. You *do* get security updates for every app.
[12:13] <RichEd> yes, I wouldn't say it is short sighted so much as conditioned ... if I am in Windows, and am looking for say a CAD package ... which I want for free because the wife is talking about adding a room onto the house, then I have to search a bunch of freeware sites, and have to work out if it is actually freeware, or a cripple demo,or shareware with a time limit, or nags asking me to contribute to some poor schmuck ... it is actualy somet
[12:13] <RichEd> imes quite a frustrating / depressing couple of hours
[12:13] <pips1> Just, I don't think users are aware of the benefits, or care about those benefits too much.
[12:15] <RichEd> but in Edubuntu, I go to Add/Remove, type in CAD, look at the few options, I know they are free, I know they are going to work ... so I can click and go, and 15 minutes later, I am playing with a floor layout plan
[12:16] <RichEd> much less stress, less guilt than browsing a frustrating warez site ... and life goes on peacefully
[12:16] <pips1> Hmm. At first, I thought that there were *much more* open source applications available in debian in total than shareware apps out there... but I'm not sure anymore really. There are tons of windows-based freeware and shareware apps out there! And there are also some pretty good sites that list, categorise and review those freeware + shareware apps, too