[01:29] <jikanter> could someone point me in the direction of the ubuntu/debian python policy guide?
[01:30] <imbrandon> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=debian+python+policy&btnG=Google+Search
[01:30] <imbrandon> first result
[01:30] <imbrandon> :)
[01:33] <jikanter> thanks
[01:33] <jikanter> not what I got
[02:54] <LaserJock> hi bddebian
[02:54] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock
[02:58] <LaserJock> bddebian: how are you doing?
[02:58] <bddebian> Strung out man, how about you?
[02:59] <bddebian> Settling down during the transition at all, or still going full bore?
[02:59] <ajmitch> hi
[02:59] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[02:00] <LaserJock> I've got the inlaws here
[02:01] <LaserJock> and and a few project deadlines fast approaching
[02:01] <LaserJock> but other then that I'm chillin'
[02:02] <bddebian> Cool
[02:17] <joejaxx> hey LaserJock i just tried to build a package but during the dpkg-buildpackage process it errors with make: *** [binary-indep]  Error 1
[02:19] <LaserJock> joejaxx: need more context, pastebin the output
[02:24] <joejaxx> LaserJock: http://fluxbuntu.org/blah
[02:24] <joejaxx> LaserJock: sorry the pastebin whould not except it
[02:24] <joejaxx> i guess there was some syntax inside the paste that mysql thought was part of a query
[02:26] <LaserJock> joejaxx: are you sure you're making fluxbuntu-{minimal standard desktop live}?
[02:26] <joejaxx> yes
[02:27] <LaserJock> it'd dying on dh_testdir
[02:27] <joejaxx> yeah
[02:28] <LaserJock> joejaxx: I think the man page gives a clue
[02:29] <joejaxx> i am in the correct directory
[02:29] <joejaxx> the source directory
[02:29] <joejaxx> there is also a debian folder :)
[02:29] <joejaxx> with all the required files
[02:30] <LaserJock> well, when you build multiple binaries you are using multiple folders
[02:35] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i never had to create folders before
[02:36] <LaserJock> no, I'm not saying you have to create them
[02:36] <LaserJock> I'm wondering if the right ones are being created
[02:37] <joejaxx> oh
[02:46] <joejaxx> LaserJock: what should i do?
[02:46] <joejaxx> maybe i will debstrap a dapper environment and build it in there
[02:47] <LaserJock> joejaxx: that probably won't change anything
[02:47] <LaserJock> although you should be building it with pbuilder
[02:47] <LaserJock> I'd try to run the install rule
[02:48] <minghua> yeah, most likely the install rule installed files to wrong place
[02:48] <LaserJock> I can't quite figure out which rule it's dying in from just looking at the log
[02:48] <minghua> s/install rule/build rule/
[02:49] <minghua> is the source package somewhere?
[02:49] <joejaxx> minghua: the rule file is exactly like the Ubuntu-meta rule file
[02:49] <joejaxx> except instead of ubuntu-$$seeds its fluxbuntu-$$seeds
[02:49] <joejaxx> minghua: no it is not :\
[02:52] <minghua> well, basically to build a fluxbutu-anything package, you need to have a Package: fluxbutu-anything stanta in debian/control, and before the binary rule is called, you need to have a debian/fluxbutu-anything/ directory with all the contents of the package in it
[02:52] <minghua> it seems you screwed up somewhere
[02:52] <joejaxx> minghua: i have never had to create that folder :\
[02:52] <joejaxx> debian/fluxbuntu-anything
[02:53] <joejaxx> debian/fluxbuntu-anything/    *
[02:53] <joejaxx> the package builds fine when i am on edgy
[02:53] <minghua> oh I see
[02:53] <joejaxx> now i am back on dapper
[02:53] <joejaxx> and it does not
[02:53] <minghua> I didn't know it's a dapper-only issue
[02:54] <minghua> does it build fine in an edgy pbuilder?
[02:54] <joejaxx> yeap just like the at package is an edgy only issue
[02:54] <joejaxx> minghua: i do not use pbuilder
[02:54] <joejaxx> minghua: sudo dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -kKEYHERE
[02:54] <minghua> joejaxx: you should
[02:55] <joejaxx> minghua: i have been using that since i read the Debian New Maintainers Guide a while back
[02:55] <joejaxx> never came across anything about pbuilder
[02:55] <LaserJock> joejaxx: use pbuilder, I won't sponsor you packages if you don't ;-p
[02:55] <joejaxx> i do not know how to use pbuilder
[02:55] <minghua> if you don't use pbuilder, you can never be sure your build dependency is correct
[02:56] <minghua> it's simple as that
[02:56] <LaserJock> joejaxx: the Ubuntu Packaging Guide has info
[02:56] <joejaxx> why is there nothing about pbuilder in the Debian New Maintainers Guide? lol
[02:57] <LaserJock> because I didn't write the Debian New Maintainers Guide ;-)
[02:57] <joejaxx> so i should not be using dpkg-buildpackage that is interesting
[02:57] <minghua> and just for the justice, Debian NM Guide does mention and recommend pbuilder: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ch-checkit.en.html#s-pbuilder
[02:58] <LaserJock> joejaxx: don't use dpkg-buildpackage to build your .debs
[02:58] <joejaxx> minghua: checking the package lol
[02:58] <joejaxx> the package is not built
[02:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: oh alright
[02:58] <minghua> and that chapter is _before_ "uploading the package" ;-)
[02:58] <LaserJock> use dpkg-buildpackage -S -rfakroot (or more simply debuild -S ) to build your source package
[02:59] <joejaxx> minghua: cannot upload what you cannot build :P
[02:59] <joejaxx> ok
[02:59] <joejaxx> i will try pbuilder
[02:59] <minghua> joejaxx: did you build it in your edgy or not?
[02:59] <joejaxx> yes it built fine and installs fine on edgy :)
[03:00] <joejaxx> but for some reason not dapper
[03:00] <LaserJock> joejaxx: pbuilders will also allow you to take you install to install differences
[03:00] <LaserJock> you don't know if it doesn't build in Dapper because of something different in your installation or becuase of the package itself
[03:00] <minghua> well, then it does build.  then you can't build it in dapper, which means something is wrong with the package, and the pbuilder section is in "checking the package for errors", which IMHO is a perfect place
[03:01] <joejaxx> maybe someone used dpkg-buildpackage to build the at package too
[03:01] <joejaxx> and maybe that is why it works on dapper and not edgy
[03:05] <minghua> joejaxx: all the official packages are built in an environment similar to pbuilder, so your guess on at package is not correct
[03:06] <joejaxx> minghua: it does not install in a debootstrap environment
[03:06] <joejaxx> :\
[03:07] <LaserJock> what doesn't install?
[03:07] <joejaxx> well bbl now i have to figure out how to build meta packages with pbuilder without source lol
[03:07] <joejaxx> LaserJock: at
[03:07] <joejaxx> bll
[03:07] <joejaxx> bbl
[03:07] <LaserJock> joejaxx: woah, how do you not have source?
[03:08] <joejaxx> i do not have a fluxbuntu-*.tar.gz
[03:08] <LaserJock> what do you have?
[03:08] <joejaxx> it is a metapackage
[03:08] <LaserJock> if you do dpkg-buildpackage it will first make a source package I believe
[03:08] <LaserJock> maybe not
[03:09] <LaserJock> a metapackage still has source
[03:10] <joejaxx> hmm maybe i am just using the wrong terminology
[03:10] <LaserJock> you should have a .dsc and .tar.gz file
[03:11] <joejaxx> how can i have those before i build the package?
[03:11] <LaserJock> that is a source package
[03:11] <LaserJock> not a binary package
[03:11] <minghua> dpkg-buildpackage -S, as LaserJock has mentioned
[03:12] <joejaxx> but you told me not to use that
[03:12] <LaserJock> you *should* have a source package
[03:12] <LaserJock> no
[03:12] <LaserJock> we told you not to use dpkg-buildpackage directly
[03:12] <LaserJock> I told you to use dpkg-buildpckage -S to build a source package
[03:15] <joejaxx> is pbuilder used like this ins debian also?
[03:15] <joejaxx> in*
[03:15] <LaserJock> yes
[03:18] <LaserJock> using pbuilder will make you're life easier
[03:18] <LaserJock> and make your packages saner :-)
[03:18] <LaserJock> so it's all around a good thing
[03:21] <joejaxx> where is this Ubuntu New Maintainers Guide?
[03:21] <rmjb> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[03:22] <rmjb> I'm learning too
[03:23] <LaserJock> !packaging guide
[03:23] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[03:23] <LaserJock> doh, didn't see rmjb's link
[03:25] <rmjb> need some advice guys, I'm backing up to do a fresh install of edgy, i've backed up my gpg key with http://wiki.openskills.net/OpenSkills/OpenPGP+Key+Backup
[03:25] <rmjb> to backup my ssh keys I just copy the files?
[03:26] <minghua> copy your ~/.gnupg over should work
[03:26] <minghua> (I didn't check the URL)
[03:26] <LaserJock> yeah, I just tar up .gnupg and .ssh
[03:27] <rmjb> oh, cool, well I'll just do that then
[03:30] <LaserJock> uh oh, that's not good
[03:31] <joejaxx> same error with pbuilder
[03:31] <LaserJock> that doesn't surprise me
[03:32] <LaserJock> but now you have a source package?
[03:32] <joejaxx> you mean a dsc?
[03:32] <LaserJock> well, the .dsc and .tar.gz
[03:32] <joejaxx> yeah
[03:33] <LaserJock> good, put them on the web were I can get them
[03:33] <minghua> doesn't surprise me either, I suspected missing build-depends in the first place
[03:33] <joejaxx> Build-Depends: debhelper (>=4)
[03:33] <joejaxx> same as ubuntu-meta
[03:34] <minghua> (oh, considering there is no source package when you build the package in edgy, maybe not build dependency)
[03:35] <LaserJock> my money's on debian/control
[03:35] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:35] <minghua> (dpkg-buildpackge should give you source package as well)
[03:35] <joejaxx> it does
[03:36] <joejaxx> which is why there are source packages in the fluxbuntu repos for edgy
[03:37] <joejaxx> http://archive.fluxbuntu.net/fluxbuntu/dists/dapper/main/source/
[03:37] <joejaxx> have fun
 i do not have a fluxbuntu-*.tar.gz
[03:38] <minghua> that's what I was commenting on
[03:39] <LaserJock> joejaxx: heh, I'm glad you are turning over the copyright to your packages to Canonical ;-)
[03:39] <joejaxx> the update does that automatically does it not?
[03:39] <joejaxx> lol
[03:40] <joejaxx> actually i have to talk to canonical about that
[03:40] <joejaxx> technically i have a pending trademark
[03:43] <rmjb> when I run dh_make -e ... and it asks s/m/l/k/b then asks to confirm a bunch of information... how do I change that information before I confirm?
[03:44] <joejaxx> rmjb: what like the name?
[03:44] <joejaxx> etc?
[03:44] <rmjb> yeah to start
[03:44] <rmjb> and the license
[03:44] <joejaxx>  -c to specific the copyright file
[03:44] <joejaxx> or license
[03:45] <LaserJock> I don't know that you can edit it, but it's pretty easy to edit it after the fact or whip out debian/ and  do it again
[03:45] <joejaxx> export $DEBFULLNAME='Joseph Jackson IV'     <<rmjb
[03:46] <joejaxx> you can put that in your .bashrc file
[03:46] <joejaxx> LaserJock: oh ok
[03:46] <LaserJock> joejaxx: I'm wondering if this is a debhelper problem
[03:47] <joejaxx> oh ok
[03:48] <rmjb> thanks guys
[03:48] <rmjb> sf.net projects usually have an announce mailing list don't they?
[03:48] <joejaxx> rmjb: you are most welcome
[03:48] <joejaxx> rmjb: i think they do
[03:52] <minghua> LaserJock: dh_make does NOT belong to debhelper (and IMHO packaging guides just shouldn't recommend dh_make anymore)
[03:53] <LaserJock> minghua: perhaps
[03:53] <LaserJock> it is nice to have templates, although I don't like some of the stuff in debian/rules
[03:54] <LaserJock> and I didn't say dh_make belonged to debhelper :-)
[03:54] <minghua> LaserJock: yeah, I figure that I misread your "I'm wondering if this is a debhelper problem" now :-S
[03:55] <minghua> s/figure/have figured/
[03:55] <LaserJock> minghua: yes, I was talking about joejaxx's problem with dh_testdir
[03:58] <LaserJock> ok, well ubuntu-meta builds in dapper
[03:58] <LaserJock> so now I'm thinking it must be in the fluxbuntu package
[04:02] <joejaxx> yay my package is broken
[04:09] <LaserJock> joejaxx: found it
[04:09] <joejaxx> yay
[04:09] <joejaxx> what was it?
[04:10] <joejaxx> fluxbuntu-* not being in the depends?
[04:10] <LaserJock> no
[04:10] <LaserJock> ok, so what rule in debian/rules is it dying on?
[04:11] <joejaxx> make: *** [binary-indep]  Error 1
[04:11] <LaserJock> so it's dying on binary-indep
[04:11] <LaserJock> what is binary-indep for?
[04:11] <LaserJock> building arch independent .debs
[04:12] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:12] <LaserJock> are you building arch independent .debs?
[04:12] <joejaxx> i hope so
[04:12] <LaserJock> nope
[04:12] <LaserJock> you aren't :-)
[04:13] <joejaxx> why is that in the ubuntu-meta rule file?
[04:13] <joejaxx> lol
[04:13] <LaserJock> your meta packages are different depending on arch
[04:13] <LaserJock> i.e. fluxbuntu-desktop on i386 is different then on amd64
[04:13] <joejaxx> but wait
[04:14] <joejaxx> why does ubuntu-meta build then?
[04:14] <LaserJock> ubuntu-base
[04:14] <joejaxx> LaserJock: the depends are pulled from seed just like ubuntu-meta
[04:14] <LaserJock> is a transitional dummy package built by ubuntu-meta
[04:14] <LaserJock> that is arch independent
[04:14] <joejaxx> LaserJock: so i need to put that?
[04:14] <LaserJock> no
[04:15] <LaserJock> in fact you already are building too many met packages
[04:15] <LaserJock> you really should only need fluxbuntu-desktop
[04:15] <joejaxx> LaserJock: what do you mean?
[04:15] <joejaxx> i cannot use ubuntu-live
[04:15] <LaserJock> well, fluxbuntu-live too, until edgy
[04:15] <LaserJock> edgy won't use it
[04:16] <joejaxx> it comes with the gnome language support files
[04:16] <joejaxx> which i do not need
[04:16] <joejaxx> edgy?
[04:16] <LaserJock> but I don't think you need -minimal and -standard
[04:16] <LaserJock> Edgy doesn't use metapackages for -live
[04:17] <LaserJock> it uses tasksel
[04:17] <joejaxx> oh i am not building fluxbuntu for edgy
[04:17] <LaserJock> but when you do you'll have to look at that
[04:17] <joejaxx> which is why i spent the time today converting the fluxbuntu seeds from edgy to dapper
[04:17] <joejaxx> LaserJock: oh ok
[04:18] <LaserJock> ok, so back to the problem
[04:18] <LaserJock> you are telling it to build arch independent .debs in debian/rules
[04:18] <LaserJock> but you don't specify any arch independent packages in debian/control
[04:19] <LaserJock> soo
[04:19] <LaserJock> you can take out the stuff in binary-indep as they aren't needed
[04:19] <joejaxx> so i need to change Architecture: Any to All
[04:19] <LaserJock> no
[04:19] <joejaxx> well i want to build independent debs
[04:19] <LaserJock> you don't want to build arch independent packages do you?
[04:19] <LaserJock> why?
[04:20] <joejaxx> how else am i going to build powerpc livecd?
[04:20] <joejaxx> livecds*
[04:20] <joejaxx> amd64 and ia64 also
[04:20] <LaserJock> buy having a ppc .deb
[04:20] <LaserJock> arch independent means the package does not depend on architecture
[04:21] <LaserJock> your meta packages *do* depend on architecture
[04:21] <joejaxx> ok
[04:21] <LaserJock> desktop-i386 is different then desktop-ppc
[04:21] <LaserJock> right?
[04:21] <joejaxx> yes
[04:21] <LaserJock> there you go
[04:22] <joejaxx> so i need to take that whole section out of the rule file?
[04:22] <LaserJock> yes, but don't take out the first line
[04:22] <LaserJock> leave binary-indep there
[04:22] <joejaxx> ok
[04:22] <LaserJock> now the more interesting thing is why it didn't have a problem in edgy
[04:23] <LaserJock> I believe it is because debhelper has changed
[04:23] <LaserJock> so it errored out in Dapper, but just warns in Edgy
[04:23] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:23] <joejaxx> let me try this
[04:23] <LaserJock> the same thing happens in both cases
[04:23] <joejaxx> yeah
[04:26] <joejaxx> ok
[04:26] <joejaxx> so now before i had to go in a edit the rule file to build to a specific arch
[04:26] <joejaxx> how can i make it build all of them
[04:26] <joejaxx> instead of going back to change that line
[04:26] <joejaxx> after i build an arch to build the next one
[04:27] <rmjb> if I'm packaging a java app, it's preferable to use gcj instead of java during the build?
[04:27] <LaserJock> rmjb: yes
[04:27] <LaserJock> rmjb: sun's java is in Multiverse
[04:27] <rmjb> ok
[04:28] <LaserJock> joejaxx: what line?
[04:28] <joejaxx> DEB_BUILD_ARCH:=$(shell dpkg-architecture -qDEB_BUILD_ARCH)
[04:28] <joejaxx> instead of having that i whould have to
[04:29] <joejaxx> DEB_CUILD_ARCJ:=i386
[04:29] <LaserJock> oh, well normally you upload to the Ubuntu build machines
[04:29] <LaserJock> and they would build them for you
[04:29] <joejaxx> LaserJock: yes but i have machines here to build them
[04:29] <joejaxx> so just give the source to each one?
[04:29] <LaserJock> then you should be able to just build them
[04:29] <LaserJock> yes
[04:29] <LaserJock> it just takes the arch from each machine
[04:29] <joejaxx> LaserJock: does the arch of the build machine matter when it comes to metas?
[04:30] <LaserJock> well, a ppc machine will build the ppc debs
[04:30] <joejaxx> LaserJock: yes but i mean if you build ppc debs on a i386
[04:30] <LaserJock> amd64 can build both amd64 and i386
[04:30] <joejaxx> a meta package that is
[04:30] <LaserJock> you basically can't do that
[04:30] <LaserJock> in reality you can rig up a cross compiler in pbuilder
[04:31] <LaserJock> imbrandon has done that I believe
[04:31] <LaserJock> but it's tough
[04:31] <joejaxx> LaserJock: but what i am wondering is
[04:31] <joejaxx> if there is no actually compiling going on for the meta packages
[04:31] <LaserJock> ah
[04:31] <joejaxx> why does the arch of the machine matter?
[04:31] <LaserJock> well, I suppose it might not in this case
[04:32] <joejaxx> build machine*
[04:32] <joejaxx> i know you need seperate machine arch swhen building a regular packages :P
[04:32] <joejaxx> archs when*
[04:32] <joejaxx> -a
[04:32] <rmjb> what's a sane dependency for gcj? just gcj or gcj-base?
[04:32] <LaserJock> rmjb: not sure
[04:32] <rmjb> (gcj needs 42MB of packages...)
[04:33] <LaserJock> you might want to look at an existing package
[04:33] <rmjb> good idea
[04:33] <LaserJock> joejaxx: so in reality it doesn't matter I guess for these metapackages
[04:33] <joejaxx> i should change DEB_BUILD_ARCH:=$(shell dpkg-architecture -qDEB_BUILD_ARCH) to DEB_BUILD_ARCH:=$(shell echo ARCHBUILD)
[04:33] <joejaxx> ../ARCHBUILD that is
[04:34] <joejaxx> so it pulls the arch that i specify in that file
[04:34] <joejaxx> instead of dpkg-architecture
[04:34] <LaserJock> well, but then you are still messing with the source package each time you build on a different arch
[04:34] <LaserJock> I'd rather have a ppc machine build ppc
[04:34] <LaserJock> and an amd64 machine build i386 and amd64
[04:35] <joejaxx> LaserJock: but how whould i be messing with the source package if it pulls from that file?
[04:35] <joejaxx> that is on the outside of the source directory
[04:35] <LaserJock> a file that would have to change with each arch, no?
[04:35] <joejaxx> yes
[04:35] <joejaxx> but it is on the outside of the source directory
[04:36] <LaserJock> that sounds like a bad idea
[04:36] <LaserJock> because then your source package depends on a file outside of itself
[04:36] <joejaxx> LaserJock: oh ok
[04:36] <LaserJock> and outside the package management system
[04:36] <LaserJock> for you're own personal use it wouldn't be a big deal
[04:37] <LaserJock> but I would personally not use it for anything I distribute
[04:37] <LaserJock> this is also a reason why Ichthux does its development within Universe
[04:37] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:37] <LaserJock> so we can let Ubuntu build machines do the building for us :-)
[04:37] <joejaxx> Ichthux?
[04:37] <joejaxx> what is that?
[04:38] <LaserJock> Kubuntu derivative
[04:38] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:38] <joejaxx> what is the project goal?
[04:38] <LaserJock> I thought you were talking with the project devs
[04:38] <joejaxx> LaserJock: ?
[04:38] <LaserJock> raphink
[04:39] <joejaxx> i have never heard of that project
[04:39] <LaserJock> it's a Kubuntu derivative targeted towards Christian users and organizations
[04:39] <LaserJock> it's done by Ubuntu and Debian developers
[04:39] <LaserJock> and is in Universe
[04:40] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:40] <LaserJock> www.ichthux.com
[04:40] <joejaxx> so that is why it is named that
[04:41] <LaserJock> so that's why I've been trying to help out with Fluxbuntu and UbuntuStudio, I've been doing some similar work
[04:41] <joejaxx> yeah i have never heard of that project before until you said something about it
[04:41] <joejaxx> LaserJock: oh ok :)
[04:41] <LaserJock> ok, I thought I had mentioned it
[04:41] <joejaxx> nope not until now :)
[04:42] <LaserJock> anyway, we've done what you are doing now
[04:42] <LaserJock> we built a Dapper based release last month
[04:42] <LaserJock> and are shortly releasing the Edgy version
[04:42] <joejaxx> oh ok that is good
[04:42] <LaserJock> as soon as we get the -live stuff figured out properly
[04:43] <joejaxx> yeah
[04:43] <LaserJock> I guess the new way of using tasks made it more difficult to build the .iso
[04:44] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:44] <joejaxx> fluxbuntu releases are going to be dapper until edgy+1 comes out
[04:44] <LaserJock> why is that?
[04:44] <joejaxx> instability
[04:45] <LaserJock> but edgy is more stable
[04:45] <LaserJock> well, at least for many people
[04:45] <LaserJock> have you found instability?
[04:45] <joejaxx> not for alot of the fluxbuntu users that use ubuntu also
[04:45] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i have
[04:45] <joejaxx> gnome (nautilus) crashed twice
[04:45] <joejaxx> firefox 14 times
[04:45] <LaserJock> interesting
[04:46] <joejaxx> and that is edgy stable/final
[04:46] <LaserJock> hmm, how odd
[04:46] <joejaxx> and i am not the only one experiencing that
[04:46] <LaserJock> Edgy is all around much nicer for me and most of the people I've talked to
[04:46] <LaserJock> but that's not a whole lot of people
[04:46] <joejaxx> oh ok
[04:48] <joejaxx> the other reason was most of the updates were to gnome
[04:48] <LaserJock> in fact I wish they hadn't use the "Long Term Support" term with Dapper because then people think that Edgy is a totally unstable, crackful, use-at-your-own-risk release
[04:48] <joejaxx> or that is how it was projected to be on the wiki
[04:48] <LaserJock> really?
[04:48] <LaserJock> I thought stuff like upstart would be useful for fluxbuntu
[04:49] <joejaxx> LaserJock: yeah any new stuff with gnome whould not be useful for fluxbuntu
[04:49] <joejaxx> LaserJock: the other thing was apt
[04:49] <joejaxx> a while back apt-get was destroying stuff
[04:49] <LaserJock> yeah, there was some interesting new stuff with apt
[04:49] <joejaxx> but it seems that problem was fixed
[04:49] <LaserJock> the other thing is preserving an upgrade path
[04:50] <joejaxx> you mean for people who want to install fluxbuntu-desktop?
[04:50] <LaserJock> going to dapper to dapper+2 will greating reduce the chances of a successful upgrade
[04:50] <joejaxx> lol
[04:50] <joejaxx> well i rather have a stabe fluxbuntu
[04:50] <LaserJock> but it should be as stable as Ubuntu
[04:50] <joejaxx> then update to edgy and have multiple tickets about things crashing or not working
[04:50] <LaserJock> which is pretty stable
[04:51] <LaserJock> ok, but you'd rather break the upgrade path for your Edgy+1 users?
[04:51] <joejaxx> edgy+1?
[04:51] <joejaxx> dapper+1?
[04:52] <LaserJock> dapper+1 = edgy
[04:52] <joejaxx> if they are edgy+1 users that means they have fawn
[04:52] <LaserJock> right
[04:52] <LaserJock> but there is no reason to think feisty will be any more stable then edgy
[04:53] <joejaxx> why whould they have to upgrade to fawn if there is already a fawn fluxbuntu release
[04:53] <StevenK> LaserJock: dapper+2 = feisty
[04:53] <LaserJock> StevenK: exactly
[04:53] <joejaxx> LaserJock: exactly
[04:53] <joejaxx> LaserJock: which is why i am waiting
[04:53] <StevenK> Why don't you debug the crashes and provide patches in -updates?
[04:53] <LaserJock> how are Dapper Fluxbuntu people going to upgrade to Feisty Fluxbuntu?
[04:53] <rmjb> joejaxx: I think he saying that skipping edgy will make going from dapper to fawn trickier
[04:54] <joejaxx> people have come to me and have asked "are we switching to edgy" and i tell them no and most of the response is "good"
[04:54] <LaserJock> and how do you know feisty will be any more stable then edgy?
[04:54] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i do not know
[04:54] <joejaxx> but i know at this point
[04:54] <LaserJock> they can run Dapper if they want
[04:54] <rmjb> no reason fluxbuntu couldn't release an edgy upgrade mid cycle, when edgy "settles"
[04:55] <joejaxx> dapper is stabler then edgy
[04:55] <LaserJock> joejaxx: not necessarily, in some cases maybe
[04:55] <StevenK> Which reminds me, I want Dapper on my file server.
[04:55] <rmjb> dapper's just more settled, I like the new things in edgy... but they're gnome things
[04:56] <LaserJock> regardless, I think you should think about your upgrade path
[04:56] <LaserJock> KDE's got great things
[04:56] <joejaxx> kde?
[04:56] <LaserJock> and I *know* science apps are much more stable in Edgy
[04:56] <rmjb> don't use kubuntu unfortunately... will try it out though
[04:57] <LaserJock> what I'm saying is that it's not just Gnome
[04:58] <LaserJock> joejaxx: what are you going to do for Dapper Fluxbuntu users when Feisty Fluxbuntu comes out?
[04:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: so you are saying you whould rather have people upgrade to something that crashes then stay with a stable distro?
[04:58] <rmjb> other topic: if a source pacakge has .am Makefiles, it still makes sense to use cdbs, or stick with debhelper?
[04:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: people know there is not a way to upgrade right now
[04:58] <LaserJock> joejaxx: I'm saying you probably should support all Ubuntu release
[04:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: it has been made quite clear
[04:59] <LaserJock> rmjb: well cdbs just uses debhelper so I don't think there is a distinct advantage
[04:59] <StevenK> Then again, Dapper -> Feisty may well be supported, given Dapper's LTS standing.
[04:59] <joejaxx> LaserJock: all of the fluxbuntu releases have been developmental
[05:00] <joejaxx> people are waiting for a stable
[05:00] <rmjb> from the packager's guide is says the rules file is simpler... but since this is my first real package (and not an update) I'll stick with debhelper
[05:00] <LaserJock> I just don't know why people care about LTS so much
[05:00] <LaserJock> it doesn't necessarily mean it's more stable
[05:01] <rmjb> I'm keeping my file/cups server on lts...because it's lts :-/
[05:01] <LaserJock> it just mean Canonical is willing to support it for longer
[05:01] <rmjb> but if I want to put myth on it... I'll be tempted to upgrade
[05:01] <LaserJock> we tried to make it as stable as possible
[05:02] <LaserJock> but we try to do that with all releases
[05:02] <LaserJock> edgy had just the same amount of stabilization time
[05:02] <LaserJock> as dapper
[05:03] <LaserJock> Dapper is LTS because we had a lot of improvements over Breezy
[05:03] <LaserJock> and it looked like things overall were more stable
[05:04] <LaserJock> but Edgy builds on top of those changes, it's not like we just dumped all the improvements made in Dapper
[05:04] <LaserJock> so yeah, if I was running a critical server I'd use Dapper to get longer support
[05:05] <LaserJock> in -security and -updates
[05:05] <LaserJock> but I really don't see any reason why desktop users should shy away from Edgy
[05:07] <poningru> and this is fear of update is compounded by couple of digg stories
[05:07] <poningru> the update nightmare stories
[05:07] <rmjb> this release should have been the blingbuntu one... too bad it only had 4 months
[05:08] <rmjb> if it was more people would look past the FUD
[05:28] <rmjb> what's the pbuilder option to leave the base.tgz open when done?
[05:34] <minghua> I suppose if you use only stuff in main edgy is better than dapper
[05:34] <minghua> otherwise I'll recommend people to stay with dapper
[05:34] <luisbg> hey all
[05:35] <Hobbsee> rmjb: --save-after-login?  or you mean drop to a shell inside the pbuilder if it fails to build?
[05:35] <Hobbsee> hey luisbg
[05:36] <rmjb> Hobbsee: a shell in pbuilder is possible?!? tell me more...
[05:36] <minghua> Hobbsee: I think rmjb mean not cleaning things in /var/cache/pbuilder/build/xxx/
[05:36] <minghua> Hobbsee: while I remember --save-after-login means keeping you changes in base.tgz
[05:37] <Hobbsee> oh yeah
[05:37] <minghua> rmjb: read pbuilder(8) man page and search for "login"
[05:37] <rmjb> ok
[05:37] <Hobbsee> rmjb: yeah, pbuilder hooks will let you do that
[05:37] <Hobbsee> minghua: there's a pbuilder hook for it - drop to a shell inside the pbuilder if it ftbfs
[05:38] <Hobbsee> which is even easier than pbuilder login
[05:38] <minghua> Hobbsee: thanks.  I know hooks are possible, never used it though
[05:38] <minghua> rmjb: yeah, my reply was probably a bit misleading, sorry
[05:38] <Hobbsee> minghua: i like the one that checks for installability, etc :)
[05:39] <_MMA_> Laserjock: You there?
[05:39] <minghua> although auto-checking for installability is handy, I admit
[05:39] <LaserJock> _MMA_: yeah
[05:40] <_MMA_> "but I really don't see any reason why desktop users should shy away from Edgy"
[05:40] <_MMA_> For me, I only went to Edgy on 1 out of 5 machines because they all have nvidia cards. I need the restricted modules. When I use them, my USB devices are detected less than half the time. I have to restart till they get detected.
[05:40] <rmjb> if something ftbfs, if I do a pbuilder login right after the failure will be in base.tgz?
[05:40] <_MMA_> I was watching you and Joe talk.
[05:41] <LaserJock> hmm
[05:41] <minghua> rmjb: no.  in that case you need hooks as Hobbsee mentioned
[05:41] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if that kind of thing will get a -updates upload or not
[05:41] <_MMA_> Without the modules Im fine.
[05:41] <LaserJock> minghua: you think Universe isn't in better shape in Edgy?
[05:41] <minghua> (you can always do a login and hand build again to reproduce FTBFS, of course)
[05:42] <rmjb> I read about the hooks... I'll need to read it closer to understand it better...
[05:42] <LaserJock> I have 4 machines and I run Edgy on 3 of them and they run better then Dapper
[05:42] <minghua> LaserJock: yes, basically less testing
[05:42] <LaserJock> minghua: but they had the same amount of testing
[05:42] <LaserJock> more or less
[05:43] <luisbg> hey LaserJock, 5:43 am here
[05:43] <minghua> LaserJock: 4 month development cycle vs. 8 month development cycle is less testing to me
[05:43] <LaserJock> but the Freezes were about the same
[05:43] <minghua> LaserJock: but that's probably not the main point
[05:43] <_MMA_> Laserjock: Once I get past that, Im cool. But damn if it aint annoying. I also did a clean install. I dont believe in upgrading over an existing system. :) Just me.
[05:44] <minghua> LaserJock: I just got the general impression from browsing Chinese user forums
[05:44] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not going to say that Edgy is perfect
[05:44] <LaserJock> but LTS is basically a Canonical thing
[05:44] <rmjb> got to sleep, g'night all
[05:45] <LaserJock> and people are going to be in an interesting position when Feisty comes out
[05:45] <minghua> by the way does anybody know the upgrade policy for dapper? is dapper->(next LTS) upgrade patch supported?
[05:46] <LaserJock> well I'm guessing the next LTS is probably at least 2 years down the road
[05:46] <StevenK> Dapper+4 may not be LTS.
[05:46] <minghua> (and if yes, what if dapper -> edgy -> feisty -> ... -> (next LTS) and dapper -> (next LTS) differ? :-P)
[05:46] <LaserJock> 3-5 if Canonical doesn't want to support 2 LTS releases at the same time
[05:46] <Burgundavia> minghua: lts --> lts is undecided
[05:47] <minghua> Burgundavia: thanks
[05:47] <minghua> I am just curious
[05:47] <Burgundavia> I would widely expect to have the next lts at some point in about 2 years
[05:47] <LaserJock> minghua: yeah, that's why I would leave LTS to Canonical
[05:47] <LaserJock> ;-)
[05:47] <Burgundavia> probably 8.10
[05:47] <LaserJock> but there's no way to know
[05:48] <Burgundavia> no, there really isn't
[05:48] <LaserJock> so I hate to see people riding on LTS
[05:48] <LaserJock> for derivative development
[05:49] <LaserJock> and desktop usres
[05:49] <LaserJock> *users
[05:49] <rmjb> LaserJock: as they want newer packages they'll upgrade, because new versions wont be backported... at least that's the impression I got
[05:49] <minghua> LaserJock: I agree basing derivative development on LTS is silly
[05:49] <Burgundavia> who is proposing such?
[05:49] <Hobbsee> rmjb: no, they just expect packages to get backported, because it's LTS.  they're wrong.
[05:50] <LaserJock> rmjb: backports will certainly be going for Edgy, maybe just not as much so
[05:50] <rmjb> Hobbsee: I was thinking along those lines too, I was advised otherwise
[05:51] <Hobbsee> rmjb: indeed.  but people still seem to think that.  actually, waht's more weird is when people whinge about the latest packages not being available for breezy.  BREEZY!!!!
[05:51] <Burgundavia> joejaxx: here is what I would do: not have a stable fluxbuntu until feisty
[05:51] <joejaxx> everyone here is assuming too mcuh
[05:51] <Burgundavia> joejaxx: make your users track feisty, which gives you all that testing coverage
[05:51] <joejaxx> Burgundavia: that is what i was planning to use
[05:51] <joejaxx> exactly
[05:51] <joejaxx> that was exactly whati was going to do
[05:51] <Burgundavia> joejaxx: plus then you get all the dev work into ubuntu directly
[05:51] <Burgundavia> plan for the "hit by the bus" event
[05:52] <joejaxx> i never said i was going to stay with dapper because it was lts
[05:52] <joejaxx> Burgundavia: yeah
[05:52] <rmjb> Hobbsee: people coming from the Windows world will expect that... we didn't have to move from 2000 to XP to use Office XP... but in Linux, since a whole lot of the apps are part of the distro release, the upgrade with the distro
[05:52] <joejaxx> Burgundavia: all of the releases up to this point have been developmental
[05:52] <rmjb> it's just a mindset change
[05:52] <joejaxx> Burgundavia: the stable is far from now anyway :)
[05:53] <Hobbsee> rmjb: true that.  in the case of windows, almost none dist-upgrade anyway, so it's completely different.
[05:53] <joejaxx> Burgundavia: Launch 1 or the equivalent to fawn final will be released when fawn comes out
[05:54] <minghua> rmjb: I disagree.  You can always download newest firefox/OOo and install them independently
[05:54] <Burgundavia> rmjb: new code == new bugs
[05:54] <minghua> rmjb: that isn't different from windows scenario
[05:55] <minghua> my opinion is some people just don't understand what "distribution" and "release" mean
[05:55] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Same.
[05:55] <Fujitsu> Let's talk about warthog, hedgehog, badger and drake!
[05:55] <joejaxx> :\
[05:56] <Fujitsu> It seems everyone is doing it...
[05:56] <minghua> fawn is easier to type than feisty
[05:56] <Fujitsu> I even heard Kamion or somebody like that call it fawn a couple of days back :S
[05:56] <StevenK> Yes, and drake is one letter less than dapper, but everyone calls it Dapper?
[05:56] <minghua> StevenK: just kidding :-)
[05:56] <StevenK> That's a crappy argument, and you know it.
[05:56] <Fujitsu> StevenK: A whole lot of people even call it Drapper!
[05:56] <minghua> yes, I know it
[05:57] <joejaxx> why does Mr. Shuttleworth have two names for each release? that is like saying i have to call everyone by their first names instead of saying Mr. Soandso
[05:58] <StevenK> It has one name: Ubuntu 6.10
[05:58] <Fujitsu> Speaking of official names... Wouldn't it be a good idea to have numeric aliases in the archive?
[05:58] <Burgundavia> it has a code name and release number
[05:58] <Burgundavia> just like window
[05:58] <Burgundavia> windows or os x
[05:58] <Fujitsu> As the codename doesn't appear anywhere else...
[05:58] <Fujitsu> Chicago!
[05:58] <Burgundavia> longhorn?
[05:58] <whiprush> people have always called it by the adjective though
[05:59] <whiprush> not the noun
[05:59] <whiprush> for ubuntu
[05:59] <Burgundavia> because they are catchy
[05:59] <whiprush> yes
[05:59] <Fujitsu> whiprush: Yes, but who knows why... It is catchy, as Burgundavia said.
[05:59] <Fujitsu> `I'm running Edgy' vs. `I'm running Eft' or `I'm running 6.10'
[05:59] <minghua> I actually would prefer using the noun
[05:59] <whiprush> the proper way is "I'm running 6.10"
[06:00] <whiprush> the other stuff is for geeks like us
[06:00] <Fujitsu> whiprush: Yes, but Edgy seems to sound better regardless.
[06:00] <minghua> oh, and just to provide a perspective, most Chinese users just use the release number, even for the development branch
[06:01] <minghua> because the words for the code name are just too hard :-)
[06:01] <Fujitsu> Urgh.
[06:01] <Fujitsu> The release number is really only for the final, but I guess the names can be a bit hard for foreigners.
[06:01] <minghua> I don't think Chinese is special among the non-English speaking community
[06:02] <minghua> then use some easy code names like testing and unstable :-)
[06:02] <joejaxx> now*
[06:02] <Fujitsu> A lot of non-English speakers I've seen in #ubuntu say Drapper, which is strange... Where'd they pull that from?
[06:02] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: It has produced interesting discussion!
[06:02] <joejaxx> not really
[06:02] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Weird contraction of Dapper and Drake?
[06:03] <joejaxx> all my statements are catalyst for debating conversations
[06:03] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Probably, but... WTF!?
[06:03] <joejaxx> just like in #ubuntu-offtopic
[06:03] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Heh
[06:03] <Fujitsu> #ubuntu-motu == #ubuntu-offtopic most of the time anyway :P
[06:03] <Hobbsee> joejaxx: you should see what happens when beryl by default was mentioned.  that brought far more conversation than this
[06:03] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: just amongst different people
[06:03] <whiprush> heh
[06:03] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: and we do actually do some dev sutf fin here
[06:03] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Urgh, you just had to bring that up again, didn't you?
[06:03] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: I'd almost stuffed that out of my mind...
[06:03] <Fujitsu> Dev stuff!?
[06:03] <Fujitsu> Impossible.
[06:04] <joejaxx> Hobbsee: yeah i just need to stop talking that is the solution
[06:04] <Fujitsu> (well, rare, especially at this time)
[06:04] <joejaxx> and asking questions*
[06:04] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: of course!  :D  on that note, i rejected a beryl bug yesterday.  we need a preresponse for unsupported software
[06:04] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: write one now, and add it to the page.  thankyou.  :)
[06:04] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: gnome has a NOTGNOME one
[06:04] <Burgundavia> we can probably adapt that
[06:05] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: i didnt see it.  that sounds good thoguh
[06:05] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia: Sounds like a good ide.
[06:05] <Fujitsu> *idea
[06:06] <minghua> NOTGNOME is actually more kind, sometimes bug reporters can't really tell if it's a gtk bug or X bug
[06:06] <Fujitsu> A type of frog living in Victoria: `Geocrina victoriana'
[06:07] <Fujitsu> minghua: Yeah...
[06:07] <Fujitsu> Or should we just start accepting bugs for things like Flash 9 and Beryl?
[06:08] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Sure. Assign them all to imbrandon.
[06:08] <minghua> I think "rejected" is harsh enough
[06:08] <crimsun> dude, SWEET. /me passes the Flash baton to imbrandon.
[06:08] <Fujitsu> crimsun: He produced the packages :P
[06:08] <minghua> by the way do we have beryl packages?
[06:08] <Fujitsu> minghua: Not AFAIK.
[06:09] <Burgundavia> hopefully not
[06:09] <minghua> but we have flash package in universe
[06:09] <Hobbsee> minghua: no, i'ts just the crack that they've installed themselves, then it breaks
[06:09] <Fujitsu> So we're going to get this incredibly unstable, unpackaged software, and put it in main, and installed by default for Edgy, yay.
[06:09] <StevenK> I think imbrandon is working on/has beryl packages.
[06:09] <minghua> oh, Fujitsu said flash 9
[06:09] <Fujitsu> minghua: Yes.
[06:09] <Hobbsee> unfortunately, i've lost root access to imbrandon's machine
[06:09] <Fujitsu> StevenK: I must dissuade him...
[06:10] <Fujitsu> I've got access to two...
[06:10] <minghua> yeah, then I think "Rejected" with "XXX is not from Ubuntu and can't be supported" is good enough
[06:10] <Fujitsu> (not root access, but access all the same)
[06:10] <minghua> while I feel "NOTUBUNTU" don't emphasize this point enough
[06:10] <Hobbsee> oh no...he does have packages for it
[06:10] <Hobbsee> for some of it, at least
[06:11] <Burgundavia> why not to support beryl --> "Soeren made a valiant attempt at taming compiz by getting it to honor many of the metacity settings,"
[06:11] <whiprush> heh
[06:11] <Fujitsu> Soeren being a beryl dev?
[06:11] <whiprush> I just read that too
[06:11] <Burgundavia> Fujitsu: so soeren is working on compiz now
[06:12] <Hobbsee> the control file doesnt look like it's on that much crack, fortunately
[06:14] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Hopefully debian/copyright is bad enough to warrant trying him for high treason or so.
[06:17] <jlmb> Hi, I've found this bug (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gnochm/+bug/65020) which was already reported and even a patch was provided. I tested the patch and it solved the issue. How should I approach the situation? provide a comment that the patch indeed works or something?. thanks
[06:17] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 65020 in gnochm "drag'n'drop uri need to be escaped" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[06:19] <Hobbsee> !info gnochm edgy
[06:19] <ubotu> gnochm: CHM file viewer for GNOME. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.9.7-1 (edgy), package size 136 kB, installed size 700 kB
[06:19] <Hobbsee> personally?  i'd send that to debian.
[06:20] <minghua> debian has 0.9.8-1 BTW
[06:20] <jlmb> Oh, this is the first time I'm reporting so...big noob here.
[06:20] <Hobbsee> minghua: which means it will autosync, of course
[06:21] <minghua> jlmb: don't worry, you are doing a good job here
[06:21] <minghua> jlmb: do you know how to rebuild a package?
[06:22] <jlmb> minghua: Not yet, I was about to read the docs.
[06:23] <minghua> jlmb: don't worry then.  let me have a look at the debian package
[06:24] <jlmb> minghua: if you don't mind pointing me to the right direction so next time I'm able to do more...that would be great.
[06:25] <Hobbsee> minghua: going to NMU it?  :P
[06:26] <minghua> Hobbsee: nah.  it's just I know gnochm's maintainer
[06:26] <Hobbsee> minghua: ahh :)
[06:26] <minghua> so helping him with his packages :-)
[06:26] <Hobbsee> yep
[06:26] <minghua> jlmb: let me see if I can find some wiki URL for you...
[06:32] <Chandu> Fujitsu, hi
[06:32] <Chandu> Fujitsu, good morning
[06:33] <Chandu> hey , I have download motu-tools .. It contains some bash scripts and some python scripts ..
[06:33] <Chandu> How do I work with those
[06:34] <Chandu> How can I try for sync and merge with those scripts
[06:34] <Chandu> From the documents I am not clear about automated merge ..What does it mean
[06:35] <Chandu> Is it that ..debian packages will be automatically synced into ubuntu or merged into ubuntu without rebuid
[06:35] <Hobbsee> Chandu: automatic syncs - they get built on ubuntu, and put straight into the archives without a version number change
[06:36] <Hobbsee> only 25 merges?  that's pathetic!
[06:36] <Fujitsu> Hi Chandu...
[06:36] <Chandu> Hobbsee, get built on ubuntu means , debian source will be taken and will be rebuilt for ubuntus future release and if working fine will get synced
[06:37] <Hobbsee> Chandu: actually, i dont think it checks if it builds or not - it syncs, and then ubuntu builds the binaries
[06:37] <Hobbsee> ie, sync first, check for build later
[06:37] <Chandu> Hobbsee, is it sync of source and then build binaries for ubuntu later
[06:38] <Hobbsee> Chandu: correct
[06:38] <Hobbsee> hmmm, not that many kde packages either
[06:38] <minghua> LaserJock: as you are the doc guy here -- do you know such a thing exists?
[06:39] <LaserJock> hang on a sec, let me read it
[06:39] <Chandu> Fujitsu, can you tell me How do I work on motu-tools ... I have downloaded those scripts
[06:40] <Chandu> Hobbsee, sync of source means what ...alll debian source will be moved to ubuntu archive
[06:40] <Hobbsee> yes
[06:40] <Chandu> Hobbsee, How do you build binaries for future release ..what is the build infrastructure
[06:41] <Hobbsee> (unless the .orig.tar.gz is already the same version that you're importing)
[06:41] <Hobbsee> Chandu: pbuilder
[06:41] <Hobbsee> !pbuilder
[06:41] <ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[06:41] <LaserJock> minghua: like a: apt-get source , apt-get build-dep, dpkg-buildpackage, dpkg -i, apt-get -f install ?
[06:41] <minghua> s/dpkg -i, apt-get -f install/debi/, but yeah, basically that
[06:42] <Chandu> Hobbsee, So ubuntu wont be taking the debian binaries ... all binaries in ubnutu are rebuilt again
[06:42] <Hobbsee> Chandu: correct
[06:42] <LaserJock> minghua: interesting, I only knew of gdebi
[06:43] <LaserJock> minghua: the next version of the Ubunt packaging guide were I have time to actually work on it will have that at the beginning
[06:43] <LaserJock> it's on my todo list
[06:43] <Chandu> Hobbsee, Suppose dapper is released ..archive is present ..Now Iam working on edgy ... want to setup archive for edgy .. How do I sync merge and build pacakges for edgy and setup archive
[06:44] <minghua> LaserJock: thanks!
[06:44] <LaserJock> well, it'll be my attempt of ridding  the world of the unmentionable ;-)
[06:44] <Hobbsee> huh?  pbuilder, i think
[06:46] <Chandu> Hobbsee, can you tell me , How do I work with motu-tools ..How to use those scripts
[06:46] <Hobbsee> i've got no idea what motu-tools is
[06:46] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Nobody, AFAIK.
[06:47] <minghua> jlmb: before LaserJock updates his fine guide, the best I can find for you is the "old notes" part in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash
[06:47] <Chandu> Hobbsee, ok
[06:47] <minghua> jlmb: ignore the export DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="debug nostrip noopt"
[06:47] <minghua> jlmb: that's basically how you rebuild a package
[06:47] <Hobbsee> where is this motu-tools?
[06:47] <StevenK> motu-tools predates MoM.
[06:47] <LaserJock> is it in Universe?
[06:48] <Chandu> Hey , then in what way ubuntu is syncing and merging debian packages .for ubuntu ...
[06:48] <ajmitch> even MoM isn't essential
[06:48] <minghua> jlmb: but to rebuild a package from debian is a little trickier than that
[06:48] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: It borders on essential.
[06:48] <Chandu> In wiki it has given that ..motu-tools can be used to do thsi
[06:48] <ajmitch> you can do it all yourself
[06:48] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: true, but it's quicker with MOM
[06:48] <LaserJock> that's right
[06:48] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: I don't find so
[06:48] <minghua> jlmb: starting from rebuilding a ubuntu package should be a good practice though
[06:48] <LaserJock> I don't really care for MoM
[06:48] <LaserJock> it's OK
[06:49] <jsgotangco> wah?
[06:49] <LaserJock> but I liked our Dapper system better
[06:49] <ajmitch> hey jsgotangco
[06:49] <Chandu> ajmitch, So , everything is done manually
[06:49] <jlmb> minghua: is there a way to set up a test environment so I don't mess with my main system?
[06:49] <crimsun> (if we're doing our jobs properly, we end up manually inspecting debdiffs regardless, so it doesn't ultimately matter what is used)
[06:49] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:49] <minghua> jlmb: sure.  it's called a pbuilder.  and this time I have better doc for that :-)
[06:49] <LaserJock> and I'd rather have a nicely updated list
[06:51] <minghua> jlmb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[06:51] <Chandu> How do I test that this synced or merged debian package will work fine on my new release for Eg: edgy
[06:51] <StevenK> LaserJock: Really? I find MoM easier to deal with.
[06:51] <LaserJock> yucky
[06:51] <LaserJock> it's not updated very much
[06:51] <Chandu> Hey my main doubt is ..does this debian source which are synced or merged need to be rebuilt over my future release or current release .. .
[06:51] <minghua> jlmb: but that's just for a test building environment, for testing the installing, you need a chroot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot
[06:52] <StevenK> LaserJock: My problem with pre ubuntu-archive syncs, is that elmo was just told on IRC, and there no feedback.
[06:52] <jlmb> minghua: ok cool. thanks
[06:52] <minghua> jlmb: good luck :-)
[06:52] <LaserJock> StevenK: ah well, yeah
[06:52] <LaserJock> I'd personally like to combine ubuntu-archive with our Dapper tiber script for merges
[06:53] <Chandu> StevenK, can you tell me how to work with MON
[06:53] <Chandu> sorry MOM
[06:53] <ajmitch> Chandu: you test by building, installing, and... testing
[06:53] <ajmitch> which is why it's fun & a lot of manual work
[06:54] <ajmitch> so don't modify too much in your derivative distro :)
[06:54] <Chandu> ajmitch, building of packages als oto be done under the future release itself
[06:54] <LaserJock> ajmitch: amen to that brother! :-)
[06:54] <ajmitch> Chandu: of course
[06:54] <minghua> amen indeed
[06:54] <Chandu> ajmitch, How do I build on my future release ,as it wont be completed
[06:55] <ajmitch> same way everyone works on a development release
[06:55] <ajmitch> you have the files there until you release them
[06:55] <ajmitch> you can't complete it until you work on it
[06:55] <jlmb> minghua: quite a few emblems you got there
[06:55] <LaserJock> good night people
[06:55] <ajmitch> eg we work on feisty now until it is released
[06:55] <ajmitch> night LaserJock
[06:56] <minghua> jlmb: sorry, are you talking about the doc on the wiki?
[06:57] <jlmb> minghua: nah...your launchpad profile. gnochm bug page got refreshed
[06:57] <Chandu> ajmitch, no, for working on fiesty ..atleast fiesty base is need right ... for that debootstrap script is created first and that is used for chrrot jail .. is it
[06:57] <ajmitch> Chandu: sure
[06:58] <Chandu> ajmitch, so , For building packages for my future release .. first I need to create debootstrap script for that .and then work on that until I build all packages for that release
[06:58] <ajmitch> if you feel like it
[06:59] <ajmitch> or you could just upgrade from whatever you're basing things on
[06:59] <Chandu> ajmitch, Which packages do the packaegs mentioned in debootstrap script installs in chroot
[06:59] <minghua> jlmb: oh, those emblems :-)  yes, I've got quite a few, but I believe there are people who have more than I do :-)
[06:59] <ajmitch> Chandu: take a look at debootstrap, it's all listed in the package
[07:00] <Chandu> ajmitch, is it debootstrap package
[07:00] <ajmitch> yes
[07:00] <Chandu> ajmitch, ok
[07:01] <minghua> jlmb: yeah, for example, look at ajmitch's, he has 17 emblems :-P
[07:02] <Chandu> ajmitch, hey How you are building all 15000 packages of debian .. I heard that there are only aroung 55 motu's
[07:02] <jlmb> minghua: lol, you have a long way to go then :P
[07:02] <Hobbsee> Chandu: automation
[07:03] <ajmitch> minghua: yeah, not all of the teams have emblems
[07:03] <Chandu> Hobbsee, What is hat automation , How to do that ..What procedure you ahve followed ..Can you please tell me ..I have to do taht for my distro
[07:04] <ajmitch> Chandu: you've been told about buildd stuff already
[07:04] <Hobbsee> why are you making your own distro anyway?
[07:04] <Chandu> ajmitch, oh.! buildd infrastructure is for auto building
[07:04] <ajmitch> yes
[07:05] <Chandu> Hobbsee, No , I from India .. We have been intimated by the Government to build a distro based on Debian .. Fo promote FOSS in our country and specifically for Govt domain ..
[07:06] <Chandu> Hobbsee, I am working in Installable cd creation and package archive adminsitrator ..
[07:06] <Chandu> Hobbsee, So , I am interested in going in Ubuntu's way ..So I want to know .. How do I sync debian packages
[07:06] <Hobbsee> with a whole large lot of code
[07:07] <ajmitch> & some magic
[07:07] <ajmitch> 'syncing' is an ubuntu-specific thing, really
[07:07] <ajmitch> since it's just importing source
[07:07] <Chandu> Ok
[07:08] <Chandu> Let me know just , How Ubuntu came up with its first release "Warty Warthog"
[07:08] <Chandu> In
[07:08] <ajmitch> we came, we built, we released
[07:08] <Chandu> Warty How ubuntu used debian packages ... Whether there also same procedures were used
[07:08] <Chandu> ajmitch, hey thats nice
[07:09] <Chandu> ajmitch, I have built a single cd distro ... with some modifications in gnome packges and few others (like image replacement and name .etc)
[07:09] <Chandu> ajmitch, I have that small repo .. But How do I maintian this whole large repository as Debian and Ubuntu ..
[07:10] <ajmitch> with substantial effort
[07:10] <ajmitch> we're stretched thin as it is
[07:10] <Chandu> ajmitch, As I have added XbossY revision to my modified packages ... Some packages from debian repo are not installing over my distro , dependency problems are coming
[07:10] <StevenK> Chandu: One thing to keep in mind is that the Ubuntu archive is looked after 5 to 6 people who are paid to work full time on this. Doing it all by yourself is not an option.
[07:11] <StevenK> s/after/after by/
[07:12] <Chandu> StevenK, ok
[07:16] <jlmb> Whats with the support request on launchpad? Isn't that what webforums/mailing list/irc are for?
[07:17] <minghua> I suppose in the future paid customers can use the "support request" in launchpad
[08:14] <Chandu> ajmitch, For pbuilder environment for the development release ... the mirror should be the development mirror itself ..which will be containing only the source packages which are synced from debian and packages which are modified by ubuntu and merged into the development archive
[08:15] <Chandu> ajmitch, Now I am setting up pbuilder environtment for my distro ..which debootstrap script should be used ...
[08:16] <Chandu> ajmitch, I have the code name sethu similar to sarge ..etc
[08:16] <Hobbsee> Chandu: why not just use a metapackage in universe, and roll your own iso's from that - then you get all the ubuntu fixes anyway?
[08:16] <Chandu> In base packages I have edited "sysvinit , base-files " packages
[08:17] <Chandu> Hobbsee, metapackage ..which is that
[08:17] <Hobbsee> like ubuntu-desktop
[08:17] <Hobbsee> but if you've modified stuff like sysvinit and the like, you wont be able to
[08:17] <Chandu> Hobbsee, ok
[08:18] <Chandu> Hobbsee, No, while building for feitsy ..what you are doing ... Which debootstrap script you are using and which mirror your using to create build environtment
[08:19] <Hobbsee> special secret ones
[08:19] <Chandu> Hobbsee, hey secret ..what is this
[09:01] <Chandu> Hey in which channel can I get info regarding custom cd building ..about how ubuntu isntall and live cd is built with debian installer
[09:02] <crimsun> read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization/6%2e06
[09:03] <Chandu> crimsun, what about for install cd ... bcz Ubuntu is using debain isntaller ..but by default desktop is coming ..but in debian ..by default desktop wont come ..
[09:03] <crimsun> what?
[09:04] <crimsun> are you looking for instructions for Ubuntu's d-i or for the live cd?
[09:05] <Chandu> crimsun, for d-i ..
[09:05] <Chandu> crimsun, How to build a single cd distro with gnome or kde desktop by default using d-i
[09:06] <crimsun> that's not Ubuntu-specific. Read the Debian wiki about that.
[09:07] <crimsun> http://wiki.debian.org/CustomDebian
[09:07] <Chandu> crimsun, No, I want to know How Ubuntu has modified debian installer to work for ubuntu ..with default desktop installation
[09:08] <crimsun> http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2005/07/msg00757.html
[09:12] <Chandu> crimsun, ok
[10:00] <Chandu> Hi
[10:00] <Chandu> How to work with MOM
[10:01] <Chandu> How do I get the list of files to be merged and llist of files to be synced
[10:01] <Chandu> How to identify that
[10:02] <Chandu> I found one script grab-merge.sh at http://merges.ubuntu.com/ .. How to work with that script -From where to run taht and what should be the incput argument
[10:05] <Chandu> Hey can anyone help me in this
[10:05] <Chandu> ajmitch, How to use MOM
[10:05] <Chandu> ajmitch, How ubuntu will be identifying that this package can be synced and this to be merged
[10:06] <Chandu> ajmitch, How do you get that list of packages and how that MON REPORT is generated
[10:06] <Chandu> MOM REPORT
[10:11] <Chandu> hey while building package for feisty using pbuilder ... which will be the chroot (whether it will be fiesty chroot itself) ..and from where the build-depend packges will be installed in chroot for building a package
[10:11] <Chandu> is it from the current release archive
[10:38] <crimsun> heh, we're about to get more pies in the face via /.
[10:38] <crimsun> 'Upgrading to Ubuntu Edgy Eft a "Nightmare"'
[10:39] <ajmitch> yeah, I saw it on digg
[10:39] <ajmitch> most of it is probably 3rd party crack like compiz/beryl
[10:39] <ajmitch> they already admitted that they broke upgrades
[10:39] <crimsun> part of me says, "Well duh, it's Edgy. We had four months!"
[10:39] <ajmitch> it's still disappointing
[10:39] <crimsun> quite
[10:43] <ajmitch> I fear that edgy may be a bit of a black mark if too many people have problems
[10:43] <crimsun> hopefully the showstoppers will be addressed in a "6.10.1"
[10:43] <ajmitch> maybe
[10:44] <ajmitch> or too many people will have already broken their system by upgrading when prompted to
[10:44] <ajmitch> 1 package out of many can cause the whole upgrade to stop
[10:50] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: a lot of it boils down to this: there are not enough QA people
[10:51] <ecki> moin
[10:51] <ajmitch> always
[10:51] <ajmitch> hello ecki
[10:52] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: I look at the bug count going up each week and sigh
[10:53] <Burgundavia> I don't see any end to it, even a stablization in nubmers
[10:53] <ajmitch> we might get it down for a few hours or few days
[10:53] <Burgundavia> why so?
[10:53] <ajmitch> but it still keeps rising overall
[10:53] <ajmitch> just not enough people to cover this many packages
[10:53] <crimsun> in light of the versions of packages, though, I think it's not as dire as it initially appears
[10:54] <Burgundavia> here is what scares the crap of out me: beryl by default
[10:54] <ajmitch> sure, a lot of old bugs get collected & never cleaned out
[10:57] <ajmitch> evening lifeless
[10:58] <imbrandon> i just hate it when a 3rd party package ( even a popular one ) breaks the upgrade but they blame us, i mean yes we have upgrade issues, but not near what those cause
[10:58] <imbrandon> and thats hard to explain to someone
[10:59] <ajmitch> yes, it is annoying
[11:00] <minghua_> there are always going to be such vocal people
[11:01] <ajmitch> it's the vocal people that we want supporting ubuntu & telling people it's great
[11:01] <minghua_> unfortunately when ubuntu becomes popular, it attracts more such vocal (but more or less clueless) people
[11:02] <minghua_> well, two different groups of vocal people, I would say
[11:02] <imbrandon> yea , there will alweays be a loud minority but if there is no "good" to off set the bad , we need to work on things, even if technicly its not "our" fault
[11:02] <imbrandon> as much as we can
[11:02] <crimsun> it just means we need to make universe rock for Feisty.
[11:02] <imbrandon> yup yup
[11:03] <minghua_> I am actually not sure if I want those clueless vocal people to advocate ubuntu
[11:03] <imbrandon> minghua sure, they are part of linux for "everyone"
[11:03] <minghua_> like those who says "use ubuntu, who needs debian"
[11:03] <minghua_> imbrandon: true.  but that's sabdfl's problem, not mine
[11:03] <minghua_> ;-)
[11:04] <ajmitch> minghua_: we still care, since we spend so much time on it
[11:05] <minghua_> ajmitch: I can understand it hurts when people unjustifiably blame the distro you spend much time working on
[11:06] <ajmitch> it doesn't hurt so much as annoy
[11:06] <minghua_> but I personally probably don't care that much
[11:07] <Plug> Spend the time getting angry at Slashdot using the Debian icon for Ubuntu stories :)
[11:07] <imbrandon> heh
[11:07] <ajmitch> evening Plug :)
[11:08] <Plug> hi
[11:08] <Plug> (I said I'd go to bed to 9pm)
[11:08] <Plug> (and then started watching TV)
[11:08] <ajmitch> miserable evening down here :)
[11:08] <ajmitch> yeah, I did the same
[11:08] <ajmitch> ended up watching some crap dvds with flatmates
[11:08] <Plug> work will suffer tomorrow
[11:08] <crimsun> I wouldn't care any less if I didn't spend as much time as I do. If something's worth my time, then I'm going to care. If it's not worth my time, I still should care, because someone's benefitting.
[11:08] <Plug> I ended up watching the Battlestar Galactica 1978 pilot :P
[11:09] <ajmitch> I think that's one of the dvds they got out
[11:09] <crimsun> even if it's not Ubuntu directly, there are millions of users who feel the impact of FLOSS in general, and that's important to me.
[11:09] <imbrandon> yup
[11:11] <imbrandon> i think one of the major things that will help upgrade for edgy->feisty will be to pay more attention to 3rd party software, even as much as some of us dont want to , at the very leaste to let them know they are screwing up a large number of systems and the responibility of running a repo
[11:11] <imbrandon> we're already streched thin so it will be hard
[11:13] <Plug> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=203302&cid=16630360
[11:13] <Plug> there we go, mod that up as a start.
[11:13] <minghua_> crimsun: the problem is, the vocal group don't usually represent the opinion of the mass.  although I admit the vocal people are effective to change their opinion
[11:13] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: see about luis looking at fc6?
[11:13] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: nope, haven't read p.g.o today
[11:14] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: not seriously, just a one liner
[11:16] <imbrandon> not to pick on anyone but stuff like .... the "beryl" repo ( http://3v1n0.tuxfamily.org/dists/edgy/beryl-svn/ ) has an openldap packages , wth does that have to do with beryl ? and people dont realize this
[11:16] <ajmitch> imbrandon: I've seen worse
[11:16] <ajmitch> the main one I come across with f-spot is dbus backported & broken
[11:16] <imbrandon> ajmitch, definately , but that was just what i could come up with this second
[11:16] <ajmitch> since it breaks f-spot badly
[11:17] <imbrandon> people dont realize when you add 3rd party repos how much it can possibly break , not just now but in the future
[11:17] <Plug> so how do you stop people using 3rd party stuff, when all you can do is upgrade stuff once every 6 months?
[11:17] <ajmitch> and people wonder why we *hate* automatix :)
[11:17] <imbrandon> and when it breaks they blam the distro
[11:18] <ajmitch> Plug: we can't - people will always install broken stuff
[11:18] <ajmitch> we can only try & make things more robust to handle their breakage
[11:18] <crimsun> ouch, 'LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.4 anycommand' fails horribly
[11:18] <Plug> well, the options are "make the stuff less broken"
[11:18] <Plug> or "kneecap people into accepting 6 month old stuff"
[11:18] <ajmitch> crimsun: I think that may have even been intended
[11:18] <imbrandon> Plug, we cant but i think we need to have some QA people look at the popular stuff more often and email them the broken stuff
[11:18] <imbrandon> or something
[11:18] <Plug> maybe there needs to be a "ubuntu-stupid" archive that people can upload things to
[11:18] <ajmitch> Plug: ideas are welcome
[11:19] <Plug> or a way to subscribe to revu as an apt channel
[11:19] <Plug> I don't like downloading a deb, as I often have to download others
[11:19] <Plug> but I dont like adding a repository as I'm not sure what I'll get from it
[11:19] <imbrandon> as much broken stuff gets put onto revu that would suck
[11:19] <ajmitch> we don't want to encourage that much broken stuff - revu doesn't even have automatic building for that reason
[11:19] <Plug> best answer I've seen so far is backports.org for woody, which gave you a repository for each backport
[11:19] <ajmitch> people upload incredibly crap packages to revu, it's part of learning
[11:20] <Plug> so you could 'deb http://backports.org/foo-package/ woody'
[11:20] <Plug> and only get the foo-package backport
[11:20] <Plug> ajmitch: I've uploaded incredibly crap packages to revu :)
[11:20] <ajmitch> yes, would you want people installing them?
[11:20] <Plug> but ubuntu offers the freedom for people to add whatever 3rd party repos they like
[11:20] <imbrandon> Plug, exactly and we need to tell people how to do things like that, so atleaste if they run a repo they dont break everyone, we cant stop them so might as well educate them
[11:20] <Plug> ajmitch: well, if you took everything thats on a 3rd party repo
[11:20] <bhale> using whatever 3rd party repos you like should void your warranty
[11:20] <Plug> and put them in ubuntu-stupid
[11:20] <Plug> then you could get them more QA attention?
[11:21] <bhale> it does for me.
[11:21] <imbrandon> bhale, sure it does, but you cant explain that to bloggers or /.
[11:21] <Plug> Do you then extend the warranty-voiding to universe?
[11:21] <ajmitch> Plug: QA attention is fine if they're willing & able to fix things
[11:21] <Plug> everything there is 'best effort'
[11:21] <bhale> imbrandon: I can be pretty persuasive if you break my package
[11:21] <ajmitch> but we struggle enough to cover universe, let alone everything else people want
[11:21] <Plug> (meaning no disrespect to MOTUs, etc)
[11:21] <Plug> ajmitch: and universe is a frozen target
[11:22] <minghua_> Plug: you can use sarge in your backports.org example :-)
[11:22] <Plug> if $newfeature is introduced in compiz/beryl, I want it today
[11:22] <ajmitch> Plug: I see people building firefox 2.0 backports for dapper
[11:22] <ajmitch> yet that's a sure way to cause pain
[11:22] <Plug> else I could be running gentoo ;)
[11:22] <Plug> ajmitch: a sure way to cause pain inherently, or just cos they're bad backports?
[11:22] <printk> the most popular 3rd party repos are XGL, compiz, beryl ones no?  Maybe get those in our main repos would cut down like 90% of 3rd party repos? :P
[11:23] <printk> just an idear
[11:23] <Plug> there exist really good '3rd party' packagers
[11:23] <Plug> Christian Marrilat comes to mind
[11:23] <ajmitch> Plug: too much stuff depends on gecko
[11:23] <crimsun> Christian was also a DD.
[11:23] <bhale> if you are a 3rd party and "really good"
[11:23] <bhale> you should join MOTU
[11:23] <Plug> yeah, it's contrived
[11:23] <bhale> and play by the same rules as everyone else
[11:23] <imbrandon> Plug, sure and like seveas, but that isnt the majority
[11:23] <Plug> bhale: and make a visible contribution to users once every 6 months
[11:23] <Plug> 3rd party repos update far more regularly.
[11:24] <Plug> Which is the inherent problem, IMO.
[11:24] <bhale> listen
[11:24] <bhale> ubuntu development branch opens a few weeks later
[11:24] <bhale> and is meant for testing the latest
[11:24] <bhale> there is a large group of people (including yourself) who insist on having your cake and eating it too
[11:24] <bhale> its harmful to ubuntu
[11:25] <Seveas> bhale, not everything is suitable to be included in ubuntu
[11:25] <bhale> you are "free" to do whatever you want, but I strongly disagree
[11:25] <Plug> If your hypothetical user wants to run a stable everything, but one newer thing, would you really want them running an unstable version and complaining when everything else in it is broken?
[11:25] <Seveas> the only thing in my repo that's suitable for inclusion is mirage, which I'll hand toimbrandon when feisty opens
[11:26] <imbrandon> moins Seveas
[11:26] <Seveas> hi
[11:26] <imbrandon> btw did you get my email ?
[11:26] <Seveas> yeah
[11:26] <bhale> Seveas: the current argument was updating things from stable, not anyting entirely new
[11:26] <imbrandon> kk
[11:26] <Plug> Another common argument goes "it is the job of the OS vendor to provide a stable base for 3rd parties to upgrade on", which is what people are used to from the Windows world.
[11:27] <Plug> People don't understand why everything that rus on Ubuntu, has to come from Ubuntu.
[11:27] <bhale> it doesnt, but so far the majority of other people i have seen are underqualified
[11:28] <bhale> and there is no metric to say "seveas rules, this other guy will break your crap"
[11:28] <printk> it really just goes back to support
[11:28] <Seveas> bhale, that's a bold statement but unfortunately you're more than right
[11:28] <Plug> bhale: there is also no metric to say "X DD rules, but this other guy will break your crap" in Debian
[11:28] <ajmitch> Plug: again, windows is more resilient
[11:28] <Seveas> bhale, but remember that Ubuntu can't provide everything people want
[11:28] <bhale> Plug: except that every DD has to have a base level of knowledge
[11:28] <ajmitch> one broken package from a third party can break all upgrades on ubuntu
[11:28] <rgl> good morning
[11:29] <Plug> bhale: yep, agreed
[11:29] <imbrandon> yea and if that package is popular it becomes a problem
[11:29] <imbrandon> a real problem
[11:29] <imbrandon> i can just imagine all the broken dapper systems when they try to install ff 2.0
[11:30] <bhale> i watched people in every channel on gimpnet whining about broken mono from backports
[11:30] <bhale> and very similar things years ago in gentoo
[11:30] <minghua_> what do you guys think of the idea of making package manager refusing to dist-upgrade with third party source in sources.list (or at least shout loudly)?
[11:30] <bhale> minghua_: not nice at all.
[11:30] <printk> heh
[11:30] <Seveas> minghua_, that's not even close to a solution
[11:30] <imbrandon> shout loudly , wouldnt be bad imho
[11:30] <imbrandon> for short term
[11:30] <imbrandon> but not a good solution
[11:30] <crimsun> a warning doesn't actually resolve anything, because the packages are still installed.
[11:30] <Seveas> it doesn't magically solve problems caused by broken packages
[11:31] <Fujitsu> I'm sure I've seen a couple of instances of Firefox 2.0 backports around :(
[11:31] <Plug> Could you blacklist known bad packages at upgrade time?
[11:31] <Fujitsu> Seveas: But it can warn people that it's going to get totally fscked up.
[11:31] <Seveas> apt-get/gdebi/whatever should do that *when installing* third party packages
[11:31] <imbrandon> Plug, or if we knew they were bad we could "fix" them or offer workarround, but often it dosent show its face till after release
[11:31] <Seveas> not when you're upgrading
[11:31] <Plug> None of that deals with "howto on the 'net told me to manually edit /etc/whatever and now a new package doesn't install" errors, either.
[11:32] <bhale> that is a cultural problem
[11:32] <Fujitsu> Seveas: There's a spec on that, or there was discussion on it, several months ago.
[11:32] <bhale> not looking for  a technical solution
[11:32] <minghua_> Seveas: it's just not practical for apt-get to do so
[11:33] <Plug> Linux has a culture of bleeding edgers.  Is the cultural solution to ask them not to run Ubuntu?
[11:33] <minghua_> and there are plenty of guides around teaching people to use dpkg directly
[11:33] <bhale> bleeding edgers are free to do whatever they want on a YMMV basis IMO
[11:33] <Seveas> bhale, but "pretty things" like beryl make everyone a bleeding edg person
[11:34] <bhale> I don't want to spend another 6 months in upstream channels with
 ubuntu on mono is broken here is my 30 line stack trace kthx
 btw BACKPORTS RULES!!!1
[11:34] <Seveas> bhale, you're npt going to solve that
[11:34] <ajmitch> bhale: why not, I still deal with that regularly...
[11:34] <Seveas> people will want to always have the latest
[11:34] <Fujitsu> Grumpy!
[11:35] <Seveas> sneezy!
[11:35] <bhale> dopey
[11:35] <imbrandon> Dopey?
[11:35] <Seveas> bashful
[11:35] <imbrandon> heh
[11:35] <Seveas> hmm, Ubuntu "Dopey Dumbass", including all possible 3rd party repos
[11:35] <imbrandon> LOL
[11:38] <Fujitsu> Seveas: Sounds great!
[11:40] <Plug> 'night all
[11:40] <imbrandon> gnight Plug
[11:40] <Fujitsu> Bye, Plug.
[11:41] <ajmitch> night Plug
[11:41] <ajmitch> hi Hobbsee
[11:41] <bhale> yay Hobbsee
[11:41] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee!!!!!!!
[11:42] <Hobbsee> hi ajmitch, bhale
[11:42] <Hobbsee> why yay?
[11:42] <Hobbsee> hey Fujitsu
[11:43] <ajmitch> because you're here
[11:43] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Look what's on the front page of Slashdot!
[11:44] <imbrandon> zomg, this quote says it all, "And it went horribly wrong. I have an ATI card with the ATI driver installed via easyubuntu. After the upgrade, X just died saying the ati driver failed to start. My wireless wasn't working, either, so I couldn't get on google via lynx to research it. I ended up reinstalling dapper from CD, then doing the edgy upgrade straight away, and it was fine."
[11:44] <Fujitsu> `Users are producing detailed descriptions of problems but getting little help'
[11:44] <Fujitsu> They're forum threads!
[11:44] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: what do you expect?
[11:44] <bhale> imbrandon++
[11:44] <ajmitch> the forums are a den of iniquity, pits of vile foulness
[11:44] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Haha!
[11:44] <bhale> not that this proves my earlier point
[11:44] <Fujitsu> Thankyou ajmitch!
[11:44] <bhale> about installing random rack
[11:44] <bhale> crack
[11:44] <ajmitch> yeah, I'll shut up
[11:45] <imbrandon> hehe ajmitch
[11:45] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: ouch
[11:45] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Yeeeeah.
[11:45] <imbrandon> i htink the topic should be trimed, its really unreadable
[11:45] <Fujitsu> That REVU comment and EdgyReleaseSchedule can leave...
[11:46] <Hobbsee> but anything the least bit interesting seems not to have been accounted for, like software RAID, custom kernels,  <-- uh.....
[11:46] <bhale> hang on
[11:46] <bhale> topic locked
[11:46] <Hobbsee> last i knew, custom kernels werent supported anyway
[11:46] <Hobbsee> bhale: no it's note
[11:46] <bhale> no
[11:46] <bhale> locked by me
[11:46] <Fujitsu> CUSTOM KERNELS!?
[11:46] <bhale> get it
[11:46] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: that's in the summary on /.
[11:46] <Fujitsu> bhale: OK, I was about to do it, but you've got the lock.
[11:46] <Fujitsu> Those $#@*$@s.
[11:47] <Fujitsu> Wouldn't it be nice if we could put some official comment on the article?
[11:47] <ajmitch> "Ubuntu sadly doesn't seem to care much about security, they've had a token mention of SELinux and other proactive security on the roadmap ever since Hoary and it has gotten pushed back every single cycle with the promise that next cycle they'd start caring about security."
[11:47] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: You don't have to do it! Save yourself.
[11:47] <ajmitch> yeah, go me!
[11:48] <bhale> yeah how about SSP on every package
[11:48] <bhale> (we didnt advertise that very well)
[11:48] <Fujitsu> Because UNIX is soooo insecure without SELinux.
[11:48] <bhale> Fujitsu: DAC is dead!
[11:48] <Fujitsu> Does anybody else use SSP on most stuff?
[11:48] <bhale> Fujitsu: MAC saves the world
[11:48] <bhale> Fujitsu: er, yes its in the default compiler settings
[11:48] <ajmitch> there's also a great thread on why f-spot sucks
[11:49] <ajmitch> man, reading the forums is so uplifting tonight
[11:49] <Hobbsee> it seems that the people's comments on /. are saying it mostly works.  interesting
[11:49] <bhale> ajmitch: does it involve browsing the folder?
[11:49] <ajmitch> bhale: of course
[11:49] <bhale> ajmitch: with arrow keys?
[11:49] <ajmitch> it's about how gthumb is so much better
[11:49] <Fujitsu> bhale: Few distros use GCC 4.1, right?
[11:49] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: how about you go to all the threads, and adding "dont add random shit to your systems that we dont support, and expect the upgrade to go smoothly"
[11:49] <bhale> Fujitsu: im not sure thats a true statement
[11:50] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: I'd be too bitter
[11:50] <bhale> Hobbsee: you should have been here 10 minutes ago.
[11:50] <Hobbsee> bhale: oh?  why?
[11:50] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Yeah, you missed the suggestion of `Dopey Dumbass' by Seveas:
[11:50] <bhale> Fujitsu: fc6 has gcc 4.1
[11:50] <Hobbsee> paste/
[11:50] <Hobbsee> ?
 hmm, Ubuntu "Dopey Dumbass", including all possible 3rd party repos
[11:50] <bhale> Fujitsu: and have been using ssp and PIE selectively for awhile now
[11:51] <Hobbsee> hah
[11:51] <Fujitsu> After a big ranting session by all about 3rd party repos making things explode.
[11:51] <Hobbsee> well, yes
[11:51] <Fujitsu> bhale: Aha.
[11:51] <bhale> their use of pie is on about a half dozen daemons, though
[11:51] <bhale> they turn on NX on i386 which is a good one
[11:52] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: fedora is probably the main distro pushing a lot of this security stuff into the mainstream
[11:52] <ajmitch> while there are various things like hardened gentoo, it's hardly mainstream
[11:52] <bhale> alot of things were pioneered by hardened gentoo
[11:52] <bhale> not that I care anymore
[11:53] <Fujitsu> ` However, when I tried to get Beryl working, X got broken and I had to reconfigure it manually. I blame it on Nvidia for not opening up the source though. Kudos to everyone involved in Ubuntu, you did a great job!'
[11:54] <Fujitsu> That guy didn't blame us! It's incredible.
[11:54] <ajmitch> imbrandon: got those beryl packages working yet? :)
[11:55] <bhale> its nice that Mark is going to legitimize the hostile fork by funding development
[11:55] <Fujitsu> bhale: ... are you serious?
[11:55] <imbrandon> ajmitch, no :(
[11:55] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: iv'e seen those beryl packages.  they're still on crack.
[11:55] <Hobbsee> :P
[11:55] <bhale> Fujitsu: he is sponsoring them for mountain view over certain other people
[11:56] <bhale> Fujitsu: and pushing hard for inclusion "by default"
[11:56] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: surely you knew that
[11:56] <Fujitsu> bhale: I knew about the latter, but not the former.
[11:56] <bhale> we are also sponsoring forum moderators
[11:56] <bhale> but whatever floats your boat
[11:57] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: beryl-by-default spec
[11:57] <Hobbsee> bhale: that does kinda make sense - we can use them
[11:57] <Hobbsee> bhale: they make good testers
[11:57] <Hobbsee> bhale: by sheer number
[11:57] <bhale> heh.
[11:57] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: I said I knew about the by-default spec, but not the sponsorship.
[11:57] <imbrandon> yea forums that have fskin google ad's
[11:57] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Have you reported it to Canonical?
[11:57] <Hobbsee> bhale: i mean, you throw them at the hardware testing page, and the wifi card page, and they could do some good stuff there.
[11:57] <ajmitch> sorry, misread
[11:57] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, yea alot of the beryl people will be in MTV
[11:57] <Hobbsee> bhale: which is a job the devs wouldnt do anyway -as there arent enough
[11:57] <ajmitch> beryl-by-default is high priority on launchpad, too
[11:57] <Fujitsu> Why are we sponsoring the two things we need less of (Beryl/forums)?
[11:58] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: I thought it was Essential...
[11:58] <Fujitsu> Oops, that's accelerated-x
[11:58] <Fujitsu> But pretty much the same.
[11:58] <ajmitch> we're so loving here
[11:58] <imbrandon> :)
[11:58] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Yes, we LOVE hating the forums!
[11:58] <bhale> Fujitsu: mark funds what he is interested in, which effectively stacks the deck in terms of specs
[11:58] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: now..
[11:59] <bhale> Fujitsu: and drives release management
[11:59] <imbrandon> bhale, and thats not totaly wrong ( bad in some cases ) but we all knew the score when getting into this
[11:59] <Fujitsu> I don't see how beryl-by-default is practical, as it's got to mature from being incredibly unstable to main- and shipping-quality in less than 6 months...
[11:59] <imbrandon> s/wrong/bad
[11:59] <Hobbsee> well, i cant see mark actually including such crackful shit that changes constantly - once he sees the code
[11:59] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: True...
[12:00] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: I'm hoping mdz will make him see straight... That's what CTOs are for, is it not?
[12:00] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: details like that don't matter
[12:00] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: CTO's?
[12:00] <bhale> cheif technical officer
[12:00] <imbrandon> not only that most hardware today dosent run well with cpmiz/beryl
[12:00] <Fujitsu> Chief Technical Officer, the position mdz holds at Canonical.
[12:00] <Hobbsee> ah
[12:00] <imbrandon> not good enough atleaste
[12:01] <Hobbsee> anything with a single core seems to have great trouble, yes
[12:01] <bhale> SLED does compiz nicely.
[12:01] <ajmitch> I was wanting to test it out on my laptop, with its fairly basic i915
[12:01] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: purserj was complaining in #ubuntu-au that he often has to kill Xorg, and he's running dual-core.
[12:01] <imbrandon> processor power mean squat with compiz/beryl, its about the video cards
[12:01] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: yeah well.  i was giving them the benifit of the doubt
[12:02] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Don't bother!
[12:02] <DBO> imbrandon, well it does with the nvidia betas right now but thats a bug in the drivers
[12:02] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: well, there must be something vaguely right with it, for it to run at all
[12:03] <imbrandon> DBO, even on my intel cards and my ati cards, it "works" but not good enough for day to day use by the masses
[12:03] <ajmitch> DBO: well we'd better hope that nvidia deigns to fix their bugs, which only they can do
[12:03] <DBO> imbrandon, the core is getting a once over, and the resize plugin (our primary bug farm) is in the middle of a rewrite
[12:03] <imbrandon> by all means i think it should be in universe , maybe even main but not default /yet/
[12:04] <DBO> ajmitch, its the beta drivers with the issue, I assume they do =P
[12:04] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: I think it runs on pure evil, it doesn't need anything right if it's evil enough :S
[12:04] <Hobbsee> of course, even if it does get in, it'll freeze with a couple of months to release, which means that it'll be very out of date
[12:04] <StevenK> It can get a UVFe.
[12:04] <Hobbsee> and cant be updated with a UVF, as it's on crack.  the point of feature freeze is to stop that.
[12:04] <DBO> imbrandon, I dont speak for ubuntu and have no delusion of being able to have any weight on that decision
[12:04] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: It's a Mark-requested feature. Anything can happen.
[12:04] <StevenK> Hobbsee: But the other side of the coin is, "It's so broken, it needs to be fixed."
[12:05] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: yes, we've seen that with artwork, or the nautilus change a couple of releases ago
[12:05] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: i cant see him throwing an entire releases stability out the window, just for that
[12:05] <bhale> you could end up with 2 full time canonical employees hacking it into the ground
[12:05] <StevenK> Holy crap, Mark requested beryl-by-default?
[12:05] <ajmitch> StevenK: yes!
[12:05] <Fujitsu> StevenK: YES!
[12:05] <Hobbsee> StevenK: that's true.  then it's still broken
[12:05] <imbrandon> yes
[12:05] <Fujitsu> StevenK: That's why it's such a big thing.
[12:05] <StevenK> Geez, sorry I missed it.
[12:05] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Putting it in in the first place is pretty bad.
[12:05] <ajmitch> DBO: isn't this channel fun? :)
[12:05] <Hobbsee> indeed
[12:05] <DBO> ajmitch, people need to calm down a bit I think =P
[12:05] <ajmitch> hm, crap
[12:06] <ajmitch> why are my camera batteries flat?
[12:06] <ajmitch> they were fairly new...
[12:06] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: It's all because of Beryl.
[12:06] <DBO> -_-...
[12:06] <imbrandon> everyone seems to be fairly calm , just in disagreement with the spec
[12:06] <imbrandon> trust me i've seen them much more riled up
[12:06] <Fujitsu> Beryl decided your laptop didn't have enough power, so ate it from your camera batteries.
[12:06] <ajmitch> DBO: you haven't seen us rant then :)
[12:06] <StevenK> imbrandon: Duh. This isn't Debian.
[12:06] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: which should mean a very interesting time at UDS then, for that BOF
[12:07] <Hobbsee> or broadcast all the yelling
[12:07] <imbrandon> LOL
[12:07] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Yes, I really want to be there for that.
[12:07] <imbrandon> i think that should be the first BOF to set the tone for the rest of the conf
[12:07] <DBO> I will be there for that
[12:07] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: i think tha'td be FUN
[12:07] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: I'm definitely going to be listening, whatever time.
[12:07] <imbrandon> tbh i think most at UDS will be there
[12:07] <ajmitch> DBO: do you honestly think it'd be ready to be the default WM?
[12:08] <DBO> ajmitch, as it stands now?
[12:08] <DBO> no
[12:08] <imbrandon> DBO, ok in 3 months time
[12:08] <ajmitch> by feature freeze at latest
[12:08] <DBO> in 4 months?  yeah i think we can have it ready
[12:08] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, yes
[12:08] <Hobbsee> awww... crap.  not even kubuntu is safe!
[12:08] <StevenK> Heh
[12:08] <imbrandon> DBO, even for non 3d cards and the like that it will have to support to be default ?
[12:09] <DBO> Hobbsee, it has a built in method to fall back to KWin/Metacity for purists
[12:09] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, yes
[12:09] <ajmitch> hah
[12:09] <DBO> imbrandon, thats why it falls back =)
[12:09] <ajmitch> "purists"
[12:09] <ajmitch> I love how people get labelled like that :)
[12:09] <imbrandon> purists?
[12:09] <StevenK> Heh
[12:09] <Hobbsee> where purists is people who like their system working all the time, nto just randomly dying
[12:09] <Fujitsu> s/purists/non-crack-smokers/g
[12:09] <DBO> ajmitch, no effense, was just the first word to mind
[12:10] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Are you going to start protesting now? :-P
[12:10] <DBO> Hobbsee, have you ever run beryl?
[12:10] <imbrandon> i dont consider myself a purist becouse i use flash and the like , and i even like beryl, DBO dont get me wrong i'm probably one of the few that LIKE it and think its GREAT but its /not/ ready for default
[12:10] <StevenK> Gasp!
[12:10] <Hobbsee> DBO: i dont have a good enough video card for it, and this machine is prone to overheat, and i'd really prefer not to set it on fire, thanks!
[12:10] <crimsun> I've got the eye candy I want with xfwm4's compositor.
[12:10] <StevenK> imbrandon is actually arguing for the non-crack default!
[12:11] <DBO> Hobbsee, well perhaps you should find a way to try it before you bash it... it doesnt chew up CPU and GPU when you're not using effects
[12:11] <DBO> and even then its very light
[12:11] <imbrandon> StevenK, haha
[12:11] <Fujitsu> DBO: I have heard otherwise.
[12:11] <DBO> imbrandon, if we had to decide today
[12:11] <Hobbsee> StevenK: how about you install it on your laptop :P
[12:11] <DBO> I would agree with you... however we do not
[12:11] <StevenK> I already have compiz on my laptop.
[12:12] <crimsun> DBO: we don't appear to be bashing Beryl
[12:12] <DBO> Fujitsu, Xgl is the cause of most CPU hogging
[12:12] <imbrandon> DBO, we dont have to decide today, we decide next week :)
[12:12] <ajmitch> DBO: hence why I want useful packages (that work)
[12:12] <Fujitsu> Even on insanely powerful dual-core systems, Xorg killing is regularly necessary, apparently.
[12:12] <Fujitsu> DBO: Works fine without Beryl, I hear.
[12:12] <Hobbsee> DBO: i've *also* heard otherwise - from multiple people
[12:12] <bhale> imbrandon: beat me to it
[12:12] <AlinuxOS> I would like to set up ubuntu-ka (Georgian) LoCo team, who can help me ?(there is allredy #ubuntu-ge). Thank you.
[12:12] <DBO> Fujitsu, thats caused by people either using svn (silly people) or using old version when animation was still leaking textures
[12:12] <Fujitsu> And just think what will happen if we put it in, then take it out at the last minute...
[12:13] <imbrandon> AlinuxOS, #ubuntu-locoteams
[12:13] <AlinuxOS> imbrandon, thank you
[12:13] <imbrandon> np
[12:13] <DBO> Fujitsu, and when beryl was leaking textures to Xgl, they never got freed, even after restarting beryl, this is why people were restarting X
[12:13] <DBO> this however is an Xgl specific issue
[12:14] <StevenK> Is there crack-laden packages I can try on my Edgy laptop?
[12:14] <ajmitch> StevenK: imbrandon was fixing some up
[12:14] <Hobbsee> StevenK: imbrandon has some
[12:14] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Beryl, Xgl, Flash 9...
[12:14] <ajmitch> I'm just trying to fix them up myself
[12:14] <crimsun> emphasis on cr...
[12:14] <imbrandon> StevenK, there is packages from them but my packages arent fixed yet
[12:15] <DBO> StevenK, I have some relatively stable svn builds (dont use latest as the resize rewrite is only half done right now)
[12:15] <ajmitch> imbrandon: working on it
[12:15] <ajmitch> bhale: it should
[12:15] <imbrandon> ajmitch, rockin
[12:15] <StevenK> Fujitsu: AIGLX, not Xgl.
[12:15] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Throw in some beta NVIDIA drivers, even if you don't have an NVIDIA card.
[12:15] <Fujitsu> bhale: Yes, it will.
[12:15] <StevenK> Fujitsu: And Flash 9 can bite me.
[12:15] <crimsun> bhale: pretty well, actually.
[12:15] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Xgl is less stable than AIGLX, so go for Xgl!
[12:15] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Why? If they aren't loaded, they won't get used, so no fun.
[12:16] <ajmitch> crimsun: it'll be interesting to see how bad performance is on i915
[12:16] <imbrandon> lol
[12:16] <Fujitsu> StevenK: So force-load them!
[12:16] <crimsun> ajmitch: really, really...sluggish.
[12:16] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: It's not too bad with Compiz, unsure with Beryl.
[12:16] <ajmitch> crimsun: great to hear
[12:16] <StevenK> I think the compiz in Edgy leaks. It slows down over time.
[12:16] <crimsun> that's a Feature.
[12:16] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: indeed.  and on my video card.  i'd hate to see how it would perform
[12:17] <DBO> Hobbsee, what video card?
[12:17] <Fujitsu> bhale: You're boring!
[12:17] <StevenK> For the record, I disagree with Mark. beryl-by-default is a bad idea. Beryl easily switched on and off, good thing.
[12:17] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: i845 or so?
[12:17] <bhale> Fujitsu: I've met David Reeseman twice
[12:17] <StevenK> DBO: Video is not the only concern for Hobbsee. Her laptop has heat issues.
[12:17] <ajmitch> StevenK: Amaranth was working on a nice little switcher for that
[12:17] <bhale> Fujitsu: I can vouch for his relative sanity
[12:17] <bhale> Reeveman
[12:17] <Hobbsee> DBO: Fujitsu 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
[12:17] <imbrandon> DBO, thats the thing, untill it can work on relitively /all/ video cards its useless as default
[12:17] <Fujitsu> bhale: Forgive my ignorance, who's that?
[12:17] <Hobbsee> StevenK: that's a point, too
[12:17] <imbrandon> i855 Hobbsee
[12:17] <bhale> Fujitsu: xgl/compiz author
[12:17] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Gah, sooo close >_>
[12:18] <crimsun> Hobbsee's laptop is possessed.
[12:18] <DBO> Hobbsee, it works fine on that card
[12:18] <Fujitsu> bhale: Aha.
[12:18] <Hobbsee> crimsun: indeed.  now you're remembering the sound
[12:18] <crimsun> Her audio codec and dsp do crazy...
[12:18] <DBO> Hobbsee, just dont enable blur or burn or beamup (they are not on by default)
[12:18] <Fujitsu> Yay for AC'97 ICH4s!
[12:18] <apokryphos> Reveman =)
[12:18] <imbrandon> same here StevenK on my 3400+ amd64 :)
[12:18] <imbrandon> its great , and "works" but not useable for day to day
[12:18] <StevenK> imbrandon: Geez, I was planning on trying it on my amd64.
[12:19] <DBO> Hobbsee, you can also disable wobbly as the stencil buffer is slow too
[12:19] <ajmitch> StevenK: I'll have to try it on my amd64 with its fast nvidia card :)
[12:19] <StevenK> Heh
[12:19] <Hobbsee> DBO: i plan to look on StevenK's faster computer
[12:19] <imbrandon> DBO, well with everything diabled whats the point ?
[12:19] <ajmitch> the blazing fast geforce 6600
[12:19] <DBO> imbrandon, thats 3 features...
[12:19] <Hobbsee> DBO: i'm not willing to run beryl, get it up to 87C or so, and then have it grind like its' about to die on me.
[12:19] <tarzeau> how many MOTU people exist?
[12:19] <DBO> imbrandon, blur is barely noticable... and burn and beamup are pretty over the top anyhow
[12:20] <Fujitsu> tarzeau: 55, I believe.
[12:20] <imbrandon> tarzeau, about 60 ( counting core-dev too )
[12:20] <ajmitch> tarzeau: not enough - maybe 10-15 who are actually active
[12:20] <DBO> imbrandon, they are off by default for a reason
[12:20] <tarzeau> is there a list online?
[12:20] <apokryphos> tarzeau: check launchpad
[12:20] <Fujitsu> tarzeau: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev
[12:20] <DBO> imbrandon, anyhow its literally impossible to use every animation at once... there are more animations than there are events
[12:20] <imbrandon> DBO, i know
[12:20] <ajmitch> DBO: "over the top" is certainly true
[12:21] <Hobbsee> DBO: so if i have to turn off wobbly, blur, beamup, and anything else like that, how much can i run?
[12:21] <DBO> Hobbsee, pretty much everything
[12:21] <StevenK> Making windows transulent would be cool, but I can't see how to do that.
[12:21] <tarzeau> can i join MOTU?
[12:21] <DBO> alt + scrollwheel StevenK
[12:21] <Hobbsee> DBO: oh right
[12:21] <StevenK> DBO: My laptop is sans scrollwheel.
[12:21] <DBO> Hobbsee, thats about 5% of beryl I said not to use...
[12:22] <bhale> compiz.real: GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap is missing
[12:22] <DBO> StevenK, did you get the updated libwnck package then?
[12:22] <bhale> so much for that
[12:22] <DBO> StevenK, or you can change the mapping in beryl-settings
[12:22] <ajmitch> tarzeau: sure, there'll be plenty to do in a week or two
[12:22] <apokryphos> StevenK: you can change the shortcut in the settings
[12:22] <StevenK> DBO: I'm using compiz at the moment.
[12:22] <crimsun> tarzeau: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment
[12:22] <Hobbsee> DBO: right
[12:22] <tarzeau> ajmitch: like what? i'm only interested getting more free software that i use distributed easily (as in packages, with popular distributions)
[12:22] <DBO> StevenK, you have to do it gconf then
[12:23] <DBO> bhale, you didnt set up your drivers properly it looks like
[12:23] <DBO> bhale, what video card do you have?
[12:23] <ajmitch> tarzeau: then if you want to do packaging, you can do that - don't you already have some stuff in debian?
[12:23] <bhale> DBO: i945
[12:24] <DBO> bhale, is AIGLX enabled?  (check your xorg logs)
[12:24] <tarzeau> ajmitch: yes i do. but how would i proceed when i have a new software package? ask here for someone to upload it?
[12:24] <DBO> tfp errors stem from AIGLX errors
[12:24] <bhale> DBO: yes.
[12:24] <Hobbsee> tarzeau: you can upload it to debian, then get it synced across here, if you prefer
[12:24] <ajmitch> tarzeau: if you had a package that's new & not in debian, it gets reviewed first (see REVU on the wiki)
[12:24] <tarzeau> Hobbsee: how can i do that? i have some stuff in debian that i'd like synced to ubuntu
[12:25] <ajmitch> having packages maintained in debian is preferable
[12:25] <DBO> bhale, glxinfo | grep texture_from_pixmap
[12:25] <DBO> bhale, any output?
[12:25] <Hobbsee> tarzeau: it's in unstable?
[12:25] <ajmitch> tarzeau: it'll get synced automatically if not changed in ubuntu
[12:25] <tarzeau> ajmitch: i see, ok but how can i make sure the same thing is synced to ubuntu?
[12:25] <ajmitch> when feisty is open
[12:25] <tarzeau> Hobbsee: yes
[12:25] <Hobbsee> tarzeau: see ajmitch's answer
[12:25] <tarzeau> ajmitch: i see, ok then i don't think i'll get a MOTU
[12:25] <tarzeau> ajmitch: or use REVU
[12:25] <bhale> DBO: yes
[12:25] <DBO> bhale, how many lines?
[12:25] <bhale> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x5b GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_OML_swap_method,  GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap
[12:26] <ajmitch> tarzeau: you are a DD, right?
[12:26] <DBO> oh wait you are using compiz
[12:26] <tarzeau> ajmitch: no, i'm not
[12:26] <ajmitch> ah, I thought you were, sorry
[12:26] <DBO> thats still using the wrapper script... good luck =P
[12:26] <StevenK> bhale: Are you throwing any options to compiz?
[12:27] <DBO> he should be using compiz --strict-binding --indirect-rendering --replace &
[12:27] <DBO> (compiz should figure those out on its own but it doesnt, beryl however does)
[12:28] <StevenK> Exactly what I was going to suggest.
[12:28] <bhale> i clearly need a howto
[12:28] <Yagisan_> wow, I missed a lot of "fun"
[12:28] <StevenK> There's one on the wiki.
[12:28] <bhale> on runing this one command
[12:28] <DBO> bhale, thats compiz
[12:29] <DBO> like I said, i have no idea why they havent had compiz autodetect its environment yet
[12:29] <DBO> there is a gnome-compiz-manager that will take care of that for you if you like however
[12:29] <ajmitch> maybe you haven't submitted patches for them to do so
[12:30] <DBO> ajmitch, no those were submitted and rejected
[12:30] <DBO> or was it to the manager for detection
[12:30] <bhale> i got it running now
[12:30] <DBO> at any rate it was discussed...
[12:31] <bhale> but its completely unusable
[12:31] <bhale> better turn off some crack
[12:31] <DBO> bhale, which "compiz" are you using?
[12:31] <DBO> the one in edgy repos?
[12:31] <Fujitsu> I'm sure there were very good reasons for them being rejected, if indeed they were submitted
[12:31] <bhale> yes
[12:32] <DBO> Fujitsu, yeah, they wanted to do that elsewhere ;-)
[12:32] <apokryphos> DBO: there's already a patch in gnome's control center, on SLED, which does all that (detecting environment, if it's possible, and if so having option to enable)
[12:32] <DBO> apokryphos, I know, which is why the patches were rejected
[12:32] <crimsun> Yagisan_: I'm reading backlogged e-mail and noticed a three month-old (!) one from you. Apologies, is the issue still relevant, or is moot?
[12:32] <DBO> bhale, thats not compiz-fdo as I recall
[12:32] <apokryphos> DBO: why? I tried it on a few systems (Intel, NVidia) and have only success to report with it
[12:33] <Yagisan_> crimsun, pm me the topic to remind me please - I'm not on my usual box
[12:33] <DBO> isnt that an old compiz quinnstorm?
[12:33] <DBO> apokryphos, i didnt say it didnt work =P
[12:35] <DBO> StevenK, fresh install?
[12:35] <StevenK> Well, an upgrade from Dapper.
[12:36] <DBO> StevenK, I meant of compiz
[12:36] <StevenK> Oh, right. Yes.
[12:36] <DBO> eh... donno
[12:36] <DBO> usually that reflects a bug in your active plugins list
[12:36] <DBO> unset that key and try again
[12:36] <StevenK> DBO: To be honest, I'm tempted to wait until imbrandon (*cough*) gets the Beryl packages working.
[12:37] <DBO> StevenK, you want debs?
[12:37] <Fujitsu> Oh dear.
[12:37] <Fujitsu> Oh dear.
[12:37] <Fujitsu> Which unofficial set is this?
[12:37] <ajmitch> Fujitsu?
[12:37] <DBO> i have rev 796 through 860 right now =P
[12:37] <StevenK> "I have this crack for you. The first hit is free." :-P
[12:38] <Fujitsu> Yet another set of unofficial Beryl packages.
[12:38] <Hobbsee> StevenK: you may as well "attempt" to get it working
[12:38] <StevenK> DBO: Point me at the them.
[12:38] <DBO> Fujitsu, I have never given my packages out before
[12:38] <ajmitch> DBO: are they sane?
[12:38] <DBO> ajmitch, yes
[12:38] <Fujitsu> DBO: Oh good!
[12:38] <imbrandon> DBO, are they same packages?
[12:38] <ajmitch> DBO: are they based on the packaging in svn?
[12:39] <DBO> ajmitch, yes
[12:39] <StevenK> Given the amount of knowledge DBO seems to have on this, I'm willing to trust him.
[12:39] <ajmitch> then they're crack
[12:39] <DBO> there it is
[12:39] <ajmitch> I've already told shawn what to fix
[12:39] <Hobbsee> show the source, and teh corresponding binaries - that's the easiest way to tell if they're crack or not
[12:39] <DBO> ajmitch, i know but they work for testing purposes
[12:39] <ajmitch> (as a start)
[12:39] <StevenK> Either that, or DBO has SONET into a Google datacentre.
[12:39] <ajmitch> how I detest "works for me"
[12:40] <StevenK> Mmmmmm, SONET.
[12:40] <DBO> ajmitch, argh you are being unfair now
[12:40] <DBO> ajmitch, and you know it, I would NEVER distribute these to end users, but StevenK wants to review beryl for UDS
[12:40] <StevenK> I so don't.
[12:40] <DBO> and I feel its only fair to get him a stable/recent version...
[12:40] <DBO> StevenK, I thought thats what you wanted all this for?
[12:40] <ajmitch> DBO: StevenK isn't going to UDS, as far as I'm aware
[12:40] <StevenK> I'm not.
[12:41] <StevenK> I'm just testing all of this because I'm curious.
[12:41] <DBO> oh well, nerts to you, try 0.1.1 then =P
[12:41] <StevenK> Bwaha
[12:42] <apokryphos> beryl aside, isn't having some of the drivers enabled by default going to cause controversy with the kernel hackers again?
[12:42] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Mark won't appreciate you for taking it in the first place.
[12:42] <DBO> apokryphos, yeah
[12:42] <Fujitsu> apokryphos: Yes, there is a spec on that... It doesn't address such issues.
[12:42] <DBO> Yagisan_, beryl is a precious gem
[12:42] <DBO> Yagisan_, Green Beryl is also know as emerald
[12:43] <DBO> (which happens to be the name of our themer)
[12:43] <DBO> s/themer/window decorator/
[12:43] <Yagisan_> DBO, so it's an impure diamond ?
[12:43] <StevenK> Emerald, or Green Beryl?
[12:43] <DBO> Emerald
[12:43] <crimsun> apokryphos: which drivers?
[12:43] <DBO> Yagisan_, well Impure Diamond just didnt roll off the tongue =P
[12:43] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Proprietary 3D drivers.
[12:43] <apokryphos> crimsun: i.e. nvidia
[12:43] <Fujitsu> Yes, NVIDIA/ATI.
[12:43] <crimsun> ah.
[12:44] <crimsun> good, nothing alsa-related, or I'd faint.
[12:44] <Yagisan_> um - this isn't good for my ltsp clients is it
[12:45] <imbrandon> heh
[12:45] <ajmitch> Yagisan_: but your ltsp clients need the bling!
[12:45] <apokryphos> hehe
[12:45] <Fujitsu> The accelerated-x spec seems to have default installation of proprietary drivers in its scope.
[12:45] <Yagisan_> ajmitch, that they do - but there is a limit to the amount of bling the vesa driver supports
[12:45] <imbrandon> brb /me is afk ~30 minutes
[12:45] <ajmitch> heh ok
[12:46] <DBO> imbrandon, would you mind a PM?
[12:47] <imbrandon> DBO, sure, i might be slow answering
[12:47] <imbrandon> i was about to p[op in the shower
[12:47] <apokryphos> who exactly will be working on beryl for feisty, then?
[12:47] <imbrandon> apokryphos, its not clear yet
[12:47] <Hobbsee> apokryphos: quinn, DBO, and their team, presumably
[12:47] <Hobbsee> and maybe imbrandon
[12:47] <apokryphos> the only way I imagine the process being successful really is if someone started a process of stabilisation from today 8)
[12:48] <DBO> apokryphos, its already started
[12:49] <DBO> Amaranth is submitting code now too btw
[12:49] <Fujitsu> Seveas: Nice blog post.
[12:50] <Fujitsu> DBO: That really doesn't increase its credibility with me.
[12:50] <DBO> Fujitsu, have you ever used it?
[12:50] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: perhaps they could include that into the upgrader - checking for crack, then purging it, adding any extra bits needed so it works and *then* starting the upgrade
[12:51] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: That'd be nice, and I suggested it during the discussion minutes before you arrived :)
[12:51] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: (in relation to Seveas' blog post)
[12:51] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: ahh
[12:51] <Fujitsu> DBO: No, but I have heard many people say it is revoltingly unstable.
[12:52] <Hobbsee> DBO: it's a little hard to test without the latest packages
[12:52] <apokryphos> not revoltingly, but beryl certainly is. A stable compiz is very much possible though and exists
[12:52] <Hobbsee> but various of us have seen the packaging, and if that's the quality of the packaging, then i hate to see what of the rest is wrong
[12:53] <Hobbsee> apokryphos: compiz isnt installed by default at the moment, is it?
[12:53] <Hobbsee> maybe they're thinkingof that as default
[12:54] <DBO> Hobbsee, the packaging was done by new packagers... programmers who had never debianized a package before
[12:54] <apokryphos> Hobbsee: it isn't, nope; in universe.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> DBO: right, fair enough
[12:55] <DBO> http://wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php/Install/Ubuntu
[12:55] <DBO> walkthrough there
[12:56] <Hobbsee> hmmm.  if i had my other partition working...
[12:56] <giskard> i guess we should put it in univers asap :)
[12:56] <Hobbsee> hmmm.  that then goes and violates all my premade shortcut keys.  that's a pain
[12:57] <DBO> Hobbsee, hmmm?
[12:57] <Hobbsee> DBO: to turn some of the plugins
[12:57] <DBO> Hobbsee, turning off blur should be no big deal
[12:57] <DBO> leave wobbly on if you like
[12:58] <DBO> its not that bad, especially without blur
[01:16] <ajmitch> imbrandon: ok, packages are all hacked up & working
[01:17] <Hobbsee> yay :)
[01:17] <Hobbsee> gimme the crack!
[01:17] <ajmitch>  http://ajmitch.net.nz/~ajmitch/beryl-manager.png
[01:17] <Hobbsee> if i can even get X to work on this partition
[01:17] <ajmitch> so many options..
[01:17] <giskard> ajmitch: ehehe
[01:19] <StevenK> I note Beryl's Window Decorator seems to blink.
[01:19] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: unsuitable for gnome then :P
[01:19] <StevenK> The decoration appears, disappears, appears, ....
[01:20] <apokryphos> that happened once to me, a beryl restart fixed it
[01:23] <Fujitsu> Some fantastic comments on that /. story:
[01:23] <Fujitsu> `It would have been more respectable if the Ubuntu team had worked on optimizing bash instead of going for a crippled, but faster, shell.'
[01:23] <StevenK> HAH!
[01:23] <StevenK> Dash implements all of POSIX.
[01:23] <Fujitsu> `As a way to get some scripts to execute faster they changed from using bash as the default shell, to dash. dash breaks compatibility all over the place, none of the extensions found in practically every other bourne shell derivative are there. I first found out about this when someone using one of my scripts reported that 'read -s' (for reading passwords without echoing them) and 'trap function SIGINT' both give errors.'
[01:24] <StevenK> It isn't our fault every bloody shell script uses bashisms.
[01:24] <Fujitsu> Yes, exactly.
[01:24] <StevenK> Switching from bash to zsh would have given some of the same headaches.
[01:24] <StevenK> (For example)
[01:25] <ajmitch> StevenK: users don't care
[01:25] <Fujitsu> Ah good, somebody sane replied:
[01:25] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: I think beryl-manager needs about triple the options to be suitable for KDE then
[01:25] <StevenK> ajmitch: Point.
[01:28] <Fujitsu> Great. There's even a comment complaining about the `too new' kernel we use.
[01:28] <StevenK> Except for you know, having window decorations.
[01:30] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: aaaajj
[01:30] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: ah
[01:30] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: ?
[01:30] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: sorry, just me losing my ssh connection, it seems
[01:30] <ajmitch> right..
[01:31] <StevenK> Heh
[01:31] <ajmitch> so these beryl effects scare me
[01:31] <ajmitch> but they don't run *too* slowly on i915
[01:31] <Hobbsee> right, so i have crackk....what the!
[01:31] <Hobbsee> my pabackspace key doesnt wrkowrk!
[01:32] <ajmitch> haha
[01:32] <ajmitch> what crack are you using?
[01:32] <Hobbsee> er, well, i got gnome to boot again
[01:32] <Hobbsee> right, now, where do i get teh crack?
[01:32] <ajmitch> you don't
[01:32] <StevenK> Heh.
[01:32] <ajmitch> :)
[01:32] <Fujitsu> crack.com
[01:32] <ajmitch> unless you want me to put stuff up
[01:33] <Hobbsee> i want to try out this beryl :P
[01:33] <Fujitsu> StevenK: For certain values of work?
[01:33] <DBO> http://wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php/Install/Ubuntu  <--- Hobbsee
[01:33] <ajmitch> poor Hobbsee
[01:33] <StevenK> Fujitsu: No, it looks good, actually.
[01:33] <Hobbsee> thanks, i'd lost that
[01:33] <StevenK> I have to kill Beryl Manager, otherwise the window decorations blink.
[01:34] <DBO> StevenK, yeah thats known and fixed in svn
[01:34] <StevenK> DBO: That would have been nice to know first. :-)
[01:34] <DBO> StevenK, you can killall emerald to stop it too
[01:34] <StevenK> Ah.
[01:34] <Fujitsu> ... kill the decoration manager to get decorations?
[01:35] <DBO> Fujitsu, two start at the same time and a looping war starts
[01:35] <DBO> hence the blinking
[01:35] <Fujitsu> How silly.
[01:35] <DBO> race conditions are fun
[01:35] <ajmitch> nice crack
[01:35] <Fujitsu> What lovely reliable racing crack.
[01:35] <DBO> Fujitsu, you know I get the idea you've never had a bug in any software you've written huh?
[01:36] <Fujitsu> I've never had my software be suggested to be installed by default when it is incredibly buggy, no.
[01:36] <ajmitch> yeah, blur on i915 isn't so speedy
[01:36] <DBO> ajmitch, yeah AIGLX doesnt handle the pixels shaders so well
[01:36] <ajmitch> nor is an i915 a particularly fast chipset
[01:37] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Sure it is. Top of the range.
[01:37] <DBO> ajmitch, surprisingly if you ran Xgl (you can) it would work fine...
[01:37] <ajmitch> fullscrene gnome-terminal, everything blurred in the background
[01:37] <DBO> however you dont want to do that as Xgl is a solution far worse than the problem
[01:37] <ajmitch> typing is a little lagged
[01:38] <ajmitch> once I turn off some crack effects, it seems to be running ok
[01:39] <ajmitch> nah
[01:39] <Fujitsu> Have fun in crack-land, StevenK.
[01:39] <DBO> StevenK, what video card?
[01:39] <apokryphos> rain effect on beryl here is surprisingly slow; though perfectly smooth on compiz
[01:39] <DBO> ajmitch, wasnt blur off by default?
[01:39] <StevenK> DBO: i810 something.
[01:39] <DBO> StevenK, yeah dont turn it on
[01:39] <Hobbsee> aah, shiny!
[01:39] <ajmitch> DBO: sure it was, but I turned off some animation as well
[01:39] <ajmitch> the menu effects especially were over the top
[01:39] <DBO> ajmitch, ok =)
[01:40] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Heh.
[01:40] <DBO> ajmitch, yeah defaults need a once over
[01:40] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Flip workspaces.
[01:40] <DBO> but people tend to customize to their liking anyhow
[01:40] <ajmitch> I can handle subtle effects like fade, but dream is just not nice
[01:40] <Hobbsee> ooh, way cool!
[01:40] <StevenK> Hah
[01:40] <ajmitch> you get dizzy over many things :P
[01:40] <Hobbsee> argh!
[01:40] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: hush
[01:40] <apokryphos> where is this dream?
[01:41] <DBO> apokryphos, we smoked crack and closed out eyes
[01:41] <DBO> s/out/our/
[01:41] <DBO> there I made a crack joke =)
[01:41] <ajmitch> I also turned off wobbly windows :)
[01:41] <StevenK> Oh look, the plumber is back.
[01:41] <apokryphos> ajmitch: have you disabled everything? ;-)
[01:42] <ajmitch> apokryphos: not quite
[01:42] <DBO> ajmitch, if you wanna see something fun for nvidia users with fast cards (yours will be laggy as heck while you try this)
[01:42] <DBO> ajmitch, turn on blur effects and then turn on the motion blur, then rotate your cube
[01:42] <ajmitch> DBO: 6600 fast enough, or does it need to be 7xxx?
[01:42] <DBO> ajmitch, you on a 6600?
[01:42] <DBO> thats plenty fast
[01:42] <Hobbsee> how does one rotate the cube?  just switch desktops?
[01:42] <ajmitch> my desktop is, yes
[01:42] <apokryphos> ajmitch: nothing should be lagging on that, really.
[01:42] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Yes.
[01:42] <ajmitch> however I haven't installed beta drivers
[01:43] <DBO> beta drivers = win
[01:43] <ajmitch> apokryphos: I'm testing on my laptop now
[01:43] <DBO> much faster
[01:43] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:43] <DBO> minus the whole black window issue
[01:43] <DBO> Hobbsee, ctrl alt arrow
[01:43] <DBO> or rotate the mouse wheel on the desktop
[01:43] <apokryphos> beta drivers work better here, yup
[01:43] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Try Ctrl-Alt-Up or Ctrl-Alt-Down
[01:43] <StevenK> Those are also fun.
[01:44] <Hobbsee> indeed!
[01:44] <DBO> StevenK, those keybinding will probably get pulled... they are known to be bug farms
[01:44] <StevenK> Awww.
[01:44] <StevenK> Why there isn't a desktop on the top or bottom, who knows. :-)
[01:44] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: ctrl-alt-(mouse drag)
[01:44] <StevenK> Ouch!
[01:45] <DBO> StevenK, because the top and bottom of the cube are square
[01:45] <DBO> but your monitor isnt
[01:46] <Hobbsee> whee!
[01:46] <ajmitch> Hobbsee has her toys to play with :)
[01:46] <bhale> StevenK: dizzy yet?
[01:46] <DBO> Hobbsee, fun eh?
[01:46] <Hobbsee> bhale: yeah
[01:46] <DBO> Hobbsee, have you put your mouse in the corners of your screen yet?
[01:46] <Hobbsee> DBO: indeed, but i can feel it lagging
[01:46] <DBO> Hobbsee, thats probably a timestep issue
[01:47] <Hobbsee> oh, is *that* what that was?
[01:47] <DBO> there is some induced lag to keep CPU load down
[01:47] <StevenK> DBO: Ah, of course.
[01:47] <ajmitch> which is why my cpu is still at 800 MHz
[01:47] <StevenK> bhale: I don't get dizzy easily.
[01:47] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:47] <ajmitch> since it's probably taxing the graphics chipset far more than the CPU in this
[01:47] <StevenK> Stuff I'm watching won't make me dizzy.
[01:48] <apokryphos> well, my pc did not like that motion blur. Complete crash up+white screen; killing beryl didn't change anything.
[01:48] <DBO> Hobbsee, you can of course remove that and see how beryl would perform if we let it eat your CPU alive
[01:48] <DBO> just enable the benchmark plugin and winkey f12
[01:49] <apokryphos> DBO: will removing ~/.beryl restore default settings?
[01:49] <DBO> apokryphos, yes
[01:49] <DBO> apokryphos, thats beryl troubleshooting 101 =P
[01:49] <StevenK> Heh
[01:49] <Hobbsee> 20frames per second, cool
[01:49] <ajmitch> DBO: not bad, ~25 FPS when spinning the cube on this
[01:49] <DBO> Hobbsee, eh not bad, what resolution
[01:49] <Hobbsee> 1024x768, as usual
[01:50] <ajmitch> but about ~30 FPS when it's just sitting with some translucent windows
[01:50] <DBO> ajmitch, get on the nvidia betas already =P
[01:50] <ajmitch> DBO: on i915..
[01:50] <DBO> oh nevermind
[01:50] <DBO> yeah the --strict-binding thing is a framerate killer
[01:50] <DBO> but aiglx needs it
[01:50] <ajmitch> 2 systems here that I use
[01:51] <apokryphos> ouch, bad bug; still there
[01:51] <DBO> StevenK, well you arent supposed to HOLD the button down =P
[01:51] <DBO> apokryphos, shift backspace? =P
[01:51] <apokryphos> eventually, yes
[01:51] <StevenK> DBO: Aww, why not? :-P
[01:51] <DBO> StevenK, because thats just silly
[01:51] <_MMA_> DBO: How close are the nVidia beta drivers to being stable?
[01:51] <DBO> Hobbsee, normal click on it
[01:52] <DBO> _MMA_, pretty far
[01:52] <Hobbsee> DBO: i *did*
[01:52] <DBO> Hobbsee, odd, we have a new tray applet in svn right now for a reason
[01:52] <_MMA_> DBO: I was talking to Quinn about Beryl. She told me to wait a little bit.
[01:52] <DBO> _MMA_, for what?
[01:52] <_MMA_> I have a 4600+ AM2 and 7900GT Id love to test out.
[01:53] <DBO> eek yeah you might wanna wait
[01:53] <_MMA_> Just till some things were more stable.
[01:53] <DBO> that card is pretty darn new...
[01:53] <DBO> yep
[01:53] <DBO> black windows
[01:53] <DBO> misplaced textures
[01:53] <DBO> a couple issues with XDamage
[01:53] <ajmitch> which is why I don't feel like running them on my desktop
[01:54] <DBO> you know, all the fun with beta drivers
[01:54] <DBO> they only happen in beryl =P
[01:54] <ajmitch> odd things with twinview & refresh rates
[01:54] <DBO> oh yeah
[01:54] <DBO> that too
[01:54] <ajmitch> somewhat important that I have twinview working
[01:54] <DBO> pfft, luxary
[01:54] <ajmitch> hardly
[01:55] <DBO> Hobbsee, so has you view of beryl began to soften a bit? =)
[01:55] <Hobbsee> DBO: yes, it's lovely bling, but i'd get sick of using it constantly, nad it's quite slower
[01:55] <_MMA_> And while I completely disagree with all the "crack" terminology I have to agree I dont think Beryl should be a default yet. I like it better than Compiz also.
[01:56] <DBO> Hobbsee, the speed issues are being worked on, a new frame limiter needs to be devised... as for constant usage, like any system you need to get used to it
[01:56] <Hobbsee> what's the superkey?
[01:56] <DBO> windows key
[01:56] <StevenK> I wish I could teach Emacs that Windows == Super.
[01:56] <apokryphos> as cool as the additional beryl options are, there aren't any I think I'd keep enabled
[01:56] <Hobbsee> DBO: well, sure, but id' get bored of it - as in, it's bling.  yes, bling is good, but i want speed over bling when i want to do work
[01:56] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:56] <DBO> apokryphos, thats why you can disable them
[01:57] <DBO> Hobbsee, wanna try a quick DBO style speed hack?
[01:57] <Hobbsee> nice zoom
[01:57] <DBO> (aka dirty and dumb)
[01:57] <StevenK> Hrm. How does one zoom?
[01:57] <DBO> StevenK, super + scroll
[01:57] <Hobbsee> StevenK: win+right click
[01:58] <Hobbsee> what the...how can i hit ctrl + windows + move the mouse at the same time?????
[01:58] <DBO> you can also input keyboard inputs on zoom if you grab svn (like I said various states of disrepair however)
[01:58] <StevenK> My laptop has neither a scroll wheel or a Windows key.
[01:58] <StevenK> So nyah.
[01:58] <DBO> Hobbsee, probably doesnt work so well on a laptop
[01:58] <DBO> works fine on desktops though =P
[01:58] <DBO> Hobbsee, in your general options, uncheck detect refresh rate
[01:59] <DBO> then go to numberic values
[01:59] <DBO> and set the refresh rate to 200
[01:59] <apokryphos> DBO: sure, but that's just the reason, I mean, I'd not use beryl at the moment
[01:59] <apokryphos> (I'd use compiz, that is)
[01:59] <Hobbsee> hmm.  and when i do manage the task, it doesnt work
[01:59] <DBO> apokryphos, but you're just one bloke =)
[02:00] <DBO> Hobbsee, what are you trying to do?
[02:00] <StevenK> Okay, zoom is very cool.
[02:00] <DBO> Hobbsee, also if you lower the timestep in the animation plugin to 10 *numberical values, you'll see it*
[02:00] <DBO> animations get a lot smoother
[02:00] <StevenK> I think my manager would love that.
[02:01] <DBO> Hobbsee, are you trying to do the water effect?
[02:01] <Hobbsee> DBO: yes
[02:01] <DBO> it wont work on your laptop, you dont have pixel shaders
[02:01] <apokryphos> DBO: so any idea why I'd get this white screen all of a sudden? Surely if it was a setting I just changed (which is just when it happened), removing .beryl would sort things?
[02:01] <DBO> apokryphos, did you update mesa with manually installed nvidia drivers?
[02:02] <TankEnMate> anyone have any idea why udevd wouldn't recreate a keyboard device after it was reconnected but it does appear in /sys/bus/platform/i8042/serio1 ?
[02:02] <apokryphos> my mesa is updated, yes, and I'm running the beta drivers
[02:02] <Hobbsee> DBO: awww...that sucks
[02:02] <DBO> StevenK, yep sure is =P  not exactly sure what causes that
[02:02] <TankEnMate> does the i8042 driver not send plug events?
[02:02] <DBO> apokryphos, your libGL.so probably got overwritten by the mesa update
[02:02] <DBO> apokryphos, reinstall the nvidia drivers
[02:02] <Hobbsee> suprisingly, my laptop is only sitting 10C hotter than usual
[02:03] <DBO> Hobbsee, sorry =(
[02:03] <apokryphos> DBO: but this problem happened as soon as I changed a setting; I haven't touched my package management in a couple of days
[02:03] <DBO> Hobbsee, I'll add a routine to calculate pi if username is Hobbsee, hows that? =P
[02:03] <Hobbsee> StevenK: check win+m and win+n!
[02:03] <Hobbsee> now that's cool :)
[02:03] <DBO> oh yeah
[02:03] <StevenK> No Windows key
[02:03] <DBO> neg!
[02:03] <Hobbsee> StevenK: make another key the superkey?
[02:03] <apokryphos> it was the evil motion blur which my poor graphics card can't handle 8)
[02:04] <Hobbsee> haha
[02:04] <DBO> apokryphos, ahhhh... hmmm
[02:04] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Shift, Ctrl, Alt? I need those.
[02:04] <DBO> apokryphos, your pixel shader might be stuck in a bad state...
[02:04] <Hobbsee> StevenK: the ~ key or osmething?
[02:04] <DBO> apokryphos, or the accum buffer...
[02:04] <DBO> actually there are lots of things...
[02:04] <Hobbsee> y now, show desktop no longer works
[02:04] <DBO> basically have you restarted X apokryphos?
[02:04] <Hobbsee> make that hey now, and blame beryl for being slow
[02:04] <apokryphos> yes
[02:05] <StevenK> Hobbsee: You know XKB rules can be used to scare small children?
[02:05] <DBO> apokryphos, humor me and reinstall the nvidia driver huh?
[02:05] <giskard> Hobbsee: baryl slow?
[02:05] <apokryphos> ok
[02:05] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:05] <DBO> giskard, Hobbsee is running a fairly underpowered system
[02:05] <StevenK> Ouch!
[02:06] <DBO> Hobbsee, did you make the changes I suggested for speed?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> DBO: yes
[02:06] <DBO> no help?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> hah  it's only my graphics card that isnt great
[02:06] <Hobbsee> DBO: yeah, reasonable.
[02:06] <DBO> heh
[02:06] <Hobbsee> excluding the inverting
[02:06] <DBO> but it WAS fun wasnt it?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> sure :)
[02:06] <DBO> neg is very useful
[02:07] <DBO> makes the web actually readable
[02:07] <StevenK> Hah
[02:07] <Hobbsee> way cool - the edgy prerelease version of the gnome bakcground
[02:07] <Hobbsee> it's BLUE!!!!
[02:07] <Hobbsee> DBO: i'll whinge at no being able to use the show desktop button though
[02:07] <DBO> Hobbsee, that button works...
[02:07] <StevenK> Show Desktop works for me.
[02:08] <DBO> yep minimizes everything just fine
[02:08] <Hobbsee> DBO: no it doesnt, because the bottom left corner is used for something else bling-like
[02:08] <DBO> you can change the mappings of where those are
[02:08] <DBO> =P
[02:08] <StevenK> Yes it is, just put your mouse in the far corner.
[02:08] <Hobbsee> hmmm it's wokring now
[02:08] <StevenK> Er.
[02:08] <Hobbsee> er, sometime
[02:08] <Hobbsee> s
[02:08] <StevenK> Don't put your mouse in the far corner.
[02:08] <DBO> so long as you dont touch the very corner pixel
[02:08] <DBO> it wont trigger it
[02:09] <DBO> obvious this is tricky if those events are in the same corner
[02:09] <Hobbsee> which brilliantly violates fitt's law, i believe
[02:09] <DBO> so change the corners of the scale plugin =P
[02:09] <StevenK> Or turn off scale
[02:10] <DBO> remember, when ubuntu ships beryl, all these defaults can be changed =)
[02:10] <imbrandon> and will have to be, thats for sure
[02:11] <DBO> welcome back
[02:11] <DBO> Hobbsee, just click on a window
[02:11] <Hobbsee> why should i have to?  if i move my mouse away, i expect it to go back to the way it was
[02:11] <DBO> no its a toggle
[02:11] <DBO> scaling is a window selector
[02:11] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[02:11] <DBO> if you select a window thats on a different desktop
[02:12] <DBO> it rotates to that window
[02:12] <DBO> you can also right click on windows to zoom them in
[02:12] <DBO> and middle click them to close them
[02:12] <DBO> in later versions you can also input text (no mouse yet)
[02:13] <StevenK> Usually, by coding it. :-P
[02:13] <Hobbsee> hah
[02:14] <DBO> Hobbsee, people tell them
[02:14] <Hobbsee> yhes, but you cant expect a normal user to do that
[02:14] <Hobbsee> hmmm okay
[02:14] <DBO> same way I went on using GNOME for years without knowing about middle click paste
[02:14] <Hobbsee> i must say, i really like the blue version of the gnome wallpaper :P
[02:14] <DBO> haha
[02:14] <Hobbsee> now that is shameful - tha'ts on every linux system
[02:15] <DBO> thanks =P
[02:16] <DBO> heres what it boils down to Hobbsee
[02:16] <DBO> we think we can do this right
[02:16] <DBO> we dont want to hurt Ubuntu
[02:16] <Hobbsee> DBO: you know, if *my* computer is being regarded as on the low end, i'd hate to see what the required system specs are
[02:16] <DBO> Your computer is meeting them
[02:16] <Hobbsee> this is still a 2.4ghz celeron, with 1gb of ram
[02:16] <DBO> oh thats overkill
[02:16] <DBO> the limiting factor on your computer is the GPU
[02:17] <Hobbsee> true
[02:17] <DBO> I can run it on a PII 600 with 256 RAM and a GeForce 3
[02:17] <DBO> and if you cant run it
[02:17] <DBO> the manager will fall back to Metacity or Kwin
[02:17] <Hobbsee> yeah, well.  how many people have good graphics cards?
[02:17] <Hobbsee> true
[02:17] <Hobbsee> it's actually not *quite* as crackful as i thought
[02:17] <Hobbsee> i'll admit to that much
[02:17] <imbrandon> can run and is useabloe is diffrent, i have a 2.9hgz with 1.5gig ram and a i845 video and its not useable
[02:18] <Hobbsee> it doesnt seem to have died while i've had a shell and firefox open
[02:18] <DBO> imbrandon, the intel cards need some tweaking still
[02:18] <Hobbsee> but that's all i was running
[02:18] <DBO> imbrandon, there is a lot of performance to be squeezed out of those yet
[02:18] <imbrandon> DBO, and that will happen in the next 2 months ?
[02:18] <Hobbsee> hah.  my free memory is a little poor though
[02:18] <DBO> Hobbsee, yeap it eats texture memory, but it will free it when needed
[02:19] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStickOfDoom:/home/test$ free total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
[02:19] <DBO> imbrandon, most of it is just settings
[02:19] <Hobbsee> Mem:       1018712     977588      41124          0      46796     650832
[02:19] <Hobbsee> -/+ buffers/cache:     279960     738752
[02:19] <Hobbsee> Swap:       546168        128     546040
[02:19] <Hobbsee> hey cool, irssi has a hotkey if you do actually want to paste multiple lines
[02:20] <DBO> imbrandon, a lot could be squeezed out just by setting intel specific settings
[02:21] <Terminus> could inconvenience viewing documentation be classified as a bug?
[02:21] <Terminus> just wondering before i actually post something on launchpad.
[02:23] <DBO> Hobbsee, at any rate, if you need any more help with beryl feel free to ask
[02:23] <DBO> but I need to go shower up
[02:28] <tuxmaniac> Hello All
[02:28] <tuxmaniac> I am unable to do a gdmsetu
[02:28] <tuxmaniac> gdmsetup
[02:29] <tuxmaniac> It says Unable to access GDM Configuration file
[02:29] <tuxmaniac> ANy clues
[02:29] <tuxmaniac> I run edgy
[02:29] <tuxmaniac> I tried reinstalling everything related to gdm incudng ubuntu-desktop. No success :-(
[02:29] <tuxmaniac> I also found a similar situation here bug 46193
[02:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 46193 in gdm "First attempt to login on gdm fails" [Unknown,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/46193
[02:30] <tuxmaniac> But though I am able to login even the first time
[02:31] <Hobbsee> hehe - do we not have enough bling already?
[02:31] <Hobbsee> test@LongPointyStickOfDoom:~$ apt-cache search bling | wc -l
[02:31] <Hobbsee> 118
[02:37] <Hobbsee> that menu stuff is really over the top
[02:42] <Hobbsee> DBO: looks like you have to quit beryl before playing any games :P
[02:43] <jsgmobile> Ha ha ha
[02:46] <bhale> good
[02:46] <bhale> rhythmbox will be relisenced
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hey again bhale
[02:46] <bhale> hi again Hobbsee
[02:47] <sivang> re all
[02:48] <Hobbsee> hey sivang!
[02:48] <sivang> oops
[02:48] <Hobbsee> how'd you manager that?
[02:48] <Hobbsee> -r
[02:48] <DBO> Hobbsee, you shouldnt have to quit it to play games, but it does eat up GPU resources...
[02:49] <DBO> as for the menu animations, you can of course change those
[02:49] <Hobbsee> DBO: i couldnt even play supertux with it :P
[02:49] <Hobbsee> true.
[02:49] <DBO> Hobbsee, what was wrong?
[02:49] <DBO> slightly transparent in areas?
[02:49] <Hobbsee> DBO: framerate was far too  low
[02:49] <DBO> ah
[02:50] <DBO> you are on AIGLX right?
[02:50] <Hobbsee> yeah - i didnt change any settings on it though
[02:51] <DBO> yeah your xorg.conf could probably get some tweaking done to it
[02:51] <DBO> anywho
[02:51] <Hobbsee> which tweakign?
[02:52] <DBO> driver options
[02:52] <luisbg> aiglx is a little slow :(
[02:52] <luisbg> anybody uses telepathy for msn?
[02:52] <DBO> argh, we broke non-default keybindings in svn =P
[02:52] <DBO> annoying
[02:53] <Hobbsee> DBO: change them how?
[02:53] <giskard> luisbg:  what is your problem?
[02:53] <imbrandon> tweaking xorg.conf is not good for default   /me stops
[02:53] <giskard> hello sivang
[02:53] <DBO> imbrandon, probably not
[02:53] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: i already tweak it in two instances
[02:53] <sivang> hey giskard
[02:54] <luisbg> my video card probably isn't using it's acceleration
[02:54] <DBO> imbrandon, i by no means know whats best, Im only trying to suggest solutions
[02:54] <imbrandon> DBO, yup
[02:54] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: i dont care if i trash thsi partition
[02:54] <Hobbsee> i will care if it formats the /home attached to it though
[02:54] <Hobbsee> but otherwise, i dont care
[02:54] <imbrandon> DBO, its nothing personal, its just the more and more i see it the more and more i do like it BUT the more and more i see its not near ready for default
[02:54] <jsgmobile> Go go go
[02:55] <DBO> imbrandon, well, we got 4 months to prove you wrong
[02:55] <jsgmobile> *but its so pretty*
[02:55] <jsgmobile> ;D
[02:55] <Hobbsee> heh
[02:55] <imbrandon> DBO, no not really, you have 1 week till UDS , the code really needs to be mature to show by then
[02:55] <luisbg> the "ati" driver (at xorg.conf) is the "slow" one right?
[02:55] <bhale> yes, if you have to slice it that way
[02:56] <DBO> imbrandon, well, then its going to be a fun trip huh? =)
[02:56] <imbrandon> :)
[02:57] <imbrandon> DBO, but as i said its nothing personal, and i realy do like beryl, i'm just trying to be pratical here
[02:57] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: let practical come at UDS :P
[02:57] <jsgotangco> Heh
[02:57] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: i'm sure mdz and the like will be practical
[02:58] <DBO> we can only hope =)
[02:58] <jsgotangco> UDS MV looks interesting
[02:58] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: indeed
[02:58] <Hobbsee> EWWW!!!!!
[02:58] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, we can hope but not county on it as mark sugested it by default without a release ever being made of the project let alone a stable release :)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> true
[02:59] <jsgotangco> Huh?
[02:59] <jsgotangco> Lol
[02:59] <Hobbsee> DBO: found a bug
[02:59] <DBO> Hobbsee, I bet we know but what is it? =P
[02:59] <jsgotangco> You never know what he thinks sometimes
[03:00] <Hobbsee> DBO: if you use the inverted mode, then take a screenshot, the screenshot is of the normal mode
[03:00] <DBO> Hobbsee, ok that I didnt know...
[03:00] <Hobbsee> hahahaha :D
[03:00] <Hobbsee> that's with using windows+m
[03:00] <DBO> Hobbsee, use scrot
[03:01] <DBO> that does it properly
[03:01] <Hobbsee> scrot?
[03:01] <DBO> sudo apt-get install scrot
[03:02] <jsgotangco> What a smelly sounding name for a package lol
[03:02] <DBO> haha
[03:02] <DBO> yeah
[03:02] <imbrandon> lol
[03:02] <Hobbsee> "what'd you do today?"  "oh, i worked on scrot"   "Um, okay"
[03:03] <DBO> I think its pronounced rhyming with rot, not coat
[03:03] <grimace> that would be scrote ;)
[03:03] <DBO> yeah... scrot isnt as bad
[03:03] <DBO> at least by comparison
[03:03] <Hobbsee> heh
[03:04] <Hobbsee> doesnt work with ksnapshot either
[03:04] <DBO> yeah but it works with scrot =P
[03:04] <Hobbsee> :P
[03:05] <DBO> are you sure you arent looking at the screenshots while neg is still on?
[03:05] <DBO> because then it would look normal
[03:05] <DBO> as two negatives make a positive
[03:05] <imbrandon> that aint not true
[03:06] <DBO> you know they say two positives dont make a negatives
[03:06] <DBO> yeah right
[03:06] <DBO> s/s$//
[03:06] <Hobbsee> there's a point
[03:06] <imbrandon> heh
[03:07] <Hobbsee> my bad
[03:09] <Hobbsee> DBO: oh, and has beryl suddenly changed ctrl+alt+backspace to shutting down the machine?
[03:09] <DBO> nope
[03:10] <jsgotangco> Thats crack
[03:10] <Hobbsee> hmm, weird
[03:10] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: yep
[03:10] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: i intend to ditch this partition, so i dont actually care, as long as it doesnt kill /home
[03:10] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:10] <DBO> ...why would you zap your x server just to log out...
[03:10] <Hobbsee> DBO: i didnt - i hit the log out button in xfce
[03:10] <Hobbsee> er, in gnome sorry
[03:11] <DBO> hmmm no that shouldnt do that
[03:11] <DBO> Hobbsee, see if you can reproduce it?
[03:11] <Hobbsee> DBO: i will in a bit, yeah
[05:17] <jldugger> how does System->Administration know to run gksu on the programs in that menu?
[05:20] <zul> hey
[05:34] <geser> jldugger: see for example /usr/share/applications/synaptic.desktop
[05:52] <jdong> what is the policy on uploading to edgy-updates?
[05:52] <jdong> would anyone consider doing one for bug 42269? I've prepared the full sources already
[05:52] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 42269 in azureus "Does not create a tray icon" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/42269
[05:55] <jldugger> jdong: someone should probably look into when that started
[05:55] <jldugger> once its been fixed
[05:57] <phanatic> good evening
[06:03] <pwnguin> oh. apparently services and network uses dbus and checks for group admin
[06:03] <pwnguin> since im not in the admin group, some of that stuff wasnt working
[06:06] <TankEnMate> adios
[06:33] <jekil> how on edgy upgrade notes is write tu upgrade with update-manager and is write that apt-get can get errors?
[06:41] <rgl> I need some help to package a program made of rubygem, any pointers?
[06:55] <luisbg> is feisty open totally or not yet?
[06:57] <imbrandon> not for another week or so
[07:37] <luisbg> imbrandon, ow wow
[07:37] <luisbg> anyway they deserve a vacation =)
[07:38] <luisbg> should make the releases coincide with special days... like a christmas one, and then open the next one the second week of january
[07:38] <luisbg> plus...
[07:38] <luisbg> they will give all the users a nice present =)
[07:40] <luisbg> is cannonical going to ship for free edgy cd's as they did with hoary? have a install party in two weeks at my college
[07:45] <lloydinho> luisbg, they will continue to ship out Dapper CDs through shipit, but send out a few boxes of Edgy CDs to the Loco teams and some of the LUGs.
[07:47] <luisbg> lloydinho, some of the lugs? is there a way to register the lug of my collegue?
[07:48] <poningru> so quick question is it possible for me to build packages on a gentoo system?
[07:50] <luisbg> poningru, building ubuntu packages in a gentoo you mean?
[07:50] <poningru> right
[07:50] <lloydinho> luisbg: I wouldn't know, try contacting Canonical through the ship-it mail address.
[07:50] <azeem> poningru: you can create a Ubuntu chroot on your gentoo system and build stuff there I guess
[07:51] <poningru> azeem: hmm true
[07:51] <luisbg> lloydinho, doing so
[07:51] <lloydinho> In any case I don't think you should expect to be able to receive the CDs within two weeks. It usually takes at least 6 weeks for them to arrive - depending on where you are in the world (they all ship from the Netherlands)
[07:51] <luisbg> azeem, that's a good idea
[07:51] <luisbg> lloydinho, spain... but well, can use them the next time
[07:52] <lloydinho> luisbg: Sure, go for it. If you get registered, I'm sure it will be possible for you to order boxes of CDs another time.
[07:52] <luisbg> cool
[07:52] <luisbg> will do
[07:53] <pcniatic> hello, i have a question about MoM, anyone can help me?
[07:54] <shawarma> pcniatic: It's much easier if you just ask. It's pretty hard to know in advance if you know the answer to a question you haven't heard yet.
[07:56] <pcniatic> jeje, ok, i want to help merging packages from debian to ubuntu, but i read that i must be a MOTU to upload the changes, then how can i help?
[07:57] <imbrandon> pcniatic: you can do the merge and then ask a MOTU to review it and upload when you are finished
[07:58] <ajmitch> morning all
[07:58] <imbrandon> moins ajmitch
[07:59] <pcniatic> but this review is through REVU?
[07:59] <zul> hey ajmitch
[08:01] <imbrandon> pcniatic: not really, mosty either find a motu to work with that is arround when you are is the best way imho or email the motu ML with a location where you have uploaded it somewhere, REVU is only for new packages to ubuntu
[08:02] <pcniatic> ah ok, thanks imbrandom
[08:08] <luisbg> pcniatic, welcome aboard
[08:11] <pcniatic> thanks, luisbg
[08:11] <luisbg> =)
[08:11] <luisbg> pcniatic, have you contributed to other projects?
[08:12] <pcniatic> nops, first time
[08:12] <pcniatic> why?
[08:13] <luisbg> just to tell you you will find this community very friendly and helpful
[08:13] <luisbg> I've been in a few and this is by far the friendliest
[08:13] <luisbg> btw... I'm a newbie too
[08:13] <luisbg> but don't hesitate to ask
[08:14] <pcniatic> oh thats great
[08:15] <poningru> :)
[08:15] <poningru> <-- newbie too
[08:15] <poningru> well when it comes to ubuntu packaging
[08:15] <luisbg> gentoo was very cool like 3 or 4 years ago
[08:16] <luisbg> but I've been a debian guy all along (until ubuntu appeared)
[08:16] <pcniatic> i have been around some projects, but never active
[08:16] <luisbg> having to wait 10 hours for openoffice.org to compile... is not my idea of "quality user experience"
[08:16] <pcniatic> i use to be a fedora boy, but when ubuntu apear that change
[08:17] <pcniatic> yep, thats true
[08:17] <poningru> luisbg: naah I do not like OOo
[08:18] <poningru> I generally do not do gui till I saw ubuntu
[08:18] <luisbg> I never got to like the whole fedora red hat deal
[08:18] <luisbg> poningru, it was an example
[08:18] <poningru> luisbg: true
[08:18] <luisbg> just used that because it's a heavy thing to compile
[08:19] <luisbg> poningru, most linux geeks that have been around prior to 2002 aprox... have had a moment of their life without gui's
[08:19] <luisbg> all console stuff
[08:19] <luisbg> did you ever got to use centericq for messaging?
[08:19] <luisbg> and irssi for irc
[08:19] <poningru> hehe never tried centericq
[08:20] <poningru> luisbg: hehe actually xchat
[08:21] <poningru> brb shower time
[08:37] <poningru> so yeah...
[08:37] <poningru> I had an idea the other day...
[08:37] <poningru> ubuntu on ps3
[08:38] <poningru> sell ubuntu with a keyboard+mouse for ps3
[08:47] <imbrandon> but i've been arround a bit longer than 2002 ( dosent mean I /like/ cli , only convient at times )
[08:47] <luisbg> poningru, how much does a ps3 cost?
[08:48] <imbrandon> luisbg: way too much
[08:48] <luisbg> imbrandon, 2002 wouth a rough estimate of the real gui boom in linux... gnome/kde started being big
[08:48] <luisbg> imbrandon, can you hook up a ps3 to a computer monitor or does it have to be a tv?
[08:48] <imbrandon> luisbg: i've used a gui the whole time i've used linux :)
[08:49] <imbrandon> luisbg: afaik only a tv, dunno, dont really care
[08:49] <imbrandon> its to expensive for what you get
[08:50] <poningru> luisbg: what imbrandon siad
[08:50] <poningru> luisbg: no you can hook it up to a monitor
[08:50] <poningru> dvi -> vga adapter
[08:51] <luisbg> poningru, is the video output dvi? cool
[08:51] <imbrandon> and kde started arround 1996 :)
[08:51] <poningru> and plus new monitors will have hdmi adapters right no them
[08:51] <luisbg> I'm not much of a videogame guy... so it is too expensive for me too
[08:51] <poningru> s/no/on
[08:51] <poningru> luisbg: but if you can use it as a computer its actually pretty cheap
[08:51] <luisbg> imbrandon, yeah but the first version wheren't that great :P
[08:52] <imbrandon> luisbg: werent great !=  unuseable
[08:52] <imbrandon> :)
[08:52] <luisbg> imbrandon, true
[08:52] <luisbg> but... wrent great = no big reason to make the change
[08:53] <luisbg> in the user mind changing takes some force that has to be compensated with a benefit
[08:53] <luisbg> that's why ecodesigns don't have success, they still don't have benefit for the user to make the change (plus usually more expensive)
[08:54] <imbrandon> not totaly right, if you mean main stream then yes, if you mean those that care about FLOSS then no
[08:55] <imbrandon> the pure fact the source is avail is reason enough to switch else none of this would be here now
[08:55] <luisbg> imbrandon, I wasn't talking about software
[08:55] <luisbg> but in that example
[08:56] <luisbg> most offices don't see the open source deal a reason to stop using winsucks and office
[08:56] <luisbg> but when you explain them... no hang ups, no reboots, no licenses, etc... they start to change their mind
[08:56] <luisbg> especially the no licenses part
[08:57] <imbrandon> servers were the first to change and rightly so
[08:58] <poningru> in the us the linux server marketshare is rapidly increasing
[08:58] <imbrandon> thats how most of us "old timers" got into it ( i said most )
[08:58] <poningru> hold on let me get the source
[09:00] <luisbg> linux has been "better than the rest" for servers... far before than for desktops
[09:00] <luisbg> makes a lot of sense
[09:03] <poningru> guess it wasnt in the us
[09:03] <poningru> http://www.sda-asia.com/sda/features/psecom,id,706,nodeid,1,_language,Singapore.html
[09:04] <luisbg> I don't understand how corporations don't make a "flavor" of linux for them and install it in all worker machines
[09:05] <luisbg> would be far more cheaper than paying closed software licenses
[09:05] <poningru> exactly
[09:05] <imbrandon> luisbg: most do
[09:05] <poningru> and then use some sort of ltsp to use leftover desktop cycles to power their servers
[09:05] <imbrandon> luisbg: ever heard of goobuntu ? ibm also does as with coutless others
[09:05] <luisbg> imbrandon, really? so why the workers aren't using the same OS at home?
[09:05] <poningru> imbrandon: but those are very large corps
[09:05] <imbrandon> luisbg: why would they ?
[09:06] <luisbg> ibm is a different case... with their pro linux adds =)
[09:06] <poningru> I am speaking about a bit smaller
[09:06] <luisbg> because they get to like the system they use at work
[09:06] <imbrandon> if they are smaller they dont have the hundreds of people it takes to keep a distro uptodate, they benifet from someone else doing the work and they just customize what they need
[09:07] <imbrandon> why would my company of 50 emplyees pay 100+ people to kep a linux distro updated and working ?
[09:07] <imbrandon> i wouldent i would use ubuntu or suse or redhat etc
[09:07] <imbrandon> and only customize what i need
[09:07] <poningru> imbrandon: thats too small
[09:08] <poningru> I am speaking more along the lines of couple of thousand
[09:08] <poningru> like banks
[09:08] <imbrandon> poningru: just how many do you think work for ibm in the it dept ? its definately not more than a few thousand
[09:09] <luisbg> anyway... get them a edgy with the software they need to work and only give them access to a user account
[09:09] <imbrandon> poningru: ok what advantage does a bank have to pay 100+ people to get a distro working and upto date full time, instead of useing debian or ubuntu and paying 3 or 4 to keep it customized ?
[09:10] <poningru> imbrandon: I was thinking along those lines
[09:10] <poningru> take ubuntu/gentoo/debian and customize it
[09:10] <imbrandon> poningru: and that happens nearly every day at every company
[09:10] <imbrandon> i still fail to see your point ...
[09:10] <poningru> every office I go into has windows running
[09:11] <imbrandon> and see it everyday
[09:11] <poningru> 0.o
[09:11] <poningru> where are you?
[09:11] <imbrandon> Kansas City, but i have worked in Reno, New york, Nashville, Galviston
[09:11] <luisbg> imbrandon, if that was the case... loads of motus would be paid to customize ubuntus
[09:11] <imbrandon> and a few other places
[09:12] <luisbg> but I think it will happen eventualy
[09:12] <imbrandon> luisbg: how do you figure >
[09:12] <poningru> imbrandon: well down here in florida I havent seen it
[09:12] <imbrandon> brb afk, but you havent been looking then is all i can say :)
[09:13] <luisbg> heh
[09:14] <imbrandon> one sec too i just thought about something, FWIW mosty banks run OS/2 anyhow on their terminals and atm's :)
[09:15] <poningru> well dont know about their atms
[09:16] <luisbg> atms run windows
[09:16] <poningru> but I know the wachovia and boa terminals inside their banks used for online banking all use windows
[09:16] <luisbg> yes... I don't understand it either
[09:16] <poningru> they do???
[09:16] <poningru> naah that cant be right
[09:16] <luisbg> never heard the stories of atms sudden reboots
[09:16] <luisbg> and crashes
[09:16] <luisbg> that make the windows teletubbie field appear?
[09:18] <luisbg> anybody knows of a pda that can run linux that has wifi?
[09:18] <poningru> nope
[09:18] <poningru> err nope @ your earlier comments
[09:19] <luisbg> poningru, a few years ago there was a story about it in slashdot
[09:19] <luisbg> in a collegue at the us
[09:19] <imbrandon> luisbg: not boa, they run OS/2 i contract with them quite often ( both terms and atm's )
[09:19] <luisbg> some geeks so this reboot and decided to use the machine to play music at the windows media and make a party around it
[09:20] <poningru> luisbg: the nokia internet tablet
[09:20] <luisbg> http://www.thetartan.org/2004/3/22/scitech/brokenatmturnedintojukebox
[09:21] <poningru> imbrandon: well their in bank terminals setup for logging into their online banking uses windows
[09:23] <luisbg> poningru, does it come with linux from factory or you have to install a linux pda distro?
[09:23] <luisbg> when ubuntu flavor for pda's? ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, xubuntu, pubuntu?
[09:24] <poningru> luisbg: it has linux preinstalled
[09:24] <luisbg> linux debian!?!?!?!?
[09:24] <luisbg> wow!!!
[09:24] <imbrandon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmbeddedUbuntu
[09:25] <poningru> imbrandon: see I wanted to do something with that and ps3
[09:25] <imbrandon> poningru: why the ps3 has a full cell processor and perfs
[09:25] <luisbg> I just fell in love
[09:25] <imbrandon> its a expensive paperweight
[09:25] <poningru> ?
[09:26] <imbrandon> you want to mod something good get an xbox classic
[09:27] <luisbg> imbrandon, talking about the ps3 or nokia internet tablet?
[09:27] <imbrandon> ps3
[09:27] <poningru> imbrandon: I know been there done that
[09:28] <poningru> but if we can release a build for ps3... that would be so cool
[09:28] <poningru> because then we can turn on the aiglx and other stuff
[09:29] <luisbg> poningru, I don't think so
[09:29] <poningru> no?
[09:29] <luisbg> ps3 has an ati right?
[09:29] <poningru> nvidia
[09:29] <luisbg> well is nvidia going to let you share copies of their linux driver?
[09:29] <poningru> supposedly ps3 will have it already installed
[09:29] <imbrandon> it wouldent matter as its a cell processor and those are close source drivers so they wont work on anyting but x86
[09:30] <luisbg> poningru, supposedly ps3 is going to bring a linux installed
[09:30] <luisbg> *supposedly*
[09:30] <poningru> yep
[09:30] <luisbg> they said the same about the ps2 a few years back
[09:30] <luisbg> and they realized it made game piracy too easy
[09:31] <imbrandon> so buy a computer with tv-out , much better
[09:32] <luisbg> imbrandon, make it a mac
[09:32] <imbrandon> mac falls under the category of computers
[09:32] <imbrandon> so yes
[09:33] <imbrandon> :)
[09:33] <luisbg> imbrandon, =)
[09:35] <pcniatic> what does 'afk' means?
[09:35] <luisbg> away from keyboard
[09:36] <imbrandon> i'm typing this on an ibook :)
[09:37] <imbrandon> ok time to run , see yall
[09:37] <poningru> cya
[09:37] <poningru> yall??
[09:38] <imbrandon> you all
[09:38] <luisbg> LOL
[09:39] <poningru> no I know what that means just didnt expect imbrandon to say it
[09:39] <poningru> :p
[09:39] <imbrandon> why?
[09:39] <imbrandon> gah i got to go
[09:39] <poningru> bye
[09:40] <pcniatic> bye
[10:09] <lifeless> morning
[10:11] <ajmitch> morning lifeless
[10:11] <ajmitch> lifeless: you'll be there in MV next week?
[10:30] <lifeless> yup
[10:30] <ajmitch> lifeless: which flight are you on? NZ8 to SFO?
[10:31] <lifeless> UA870
[10:31] <ajmitch> ah right
[10:31] <zul> when do you guys leave?
[10:31] <lifeless> saturday
[10:31] <ajmitch> saturday evening, arrive saturday morning
[10:31] <zul> ah..
[10:32] <zul> i leave saturday morning, get there around lunch time
[10:33] <ajmitch> yes, 12 hour flights are so fun, too
[10:33] <zul> 6 hour flight for me
[10:42] <Ty> yo
[10:42] <Ty> yo
[10:52] <elw_> I would like to help with motu, how do I help?
[10:52] <crimsun> see the topic, please.
[10:57] <lupine_85> ho hum, no progress on my bug :/ -- is everyone taking a well-deserved post-edgy-release break? ;)
[10:58] <ajmitch> either that or noone knows of your bug
[10:59] <plugwash> apparently there is some toolchain bootstrapping that has to happen before things can really start moving on feisty
[10:59] <ajmitch> yes
[10:59] <ajmitch> that's underway
[11:38] <LaserJock> :(
[11:40] <ajmitch> hi LaserJock
[11:40] <LaserJock> hi ajmitch
[11:41] <LaserJock> I was just reading some "Developers don't care about users cause I can't dist-upgrade" stuff
[11:41] <crimsun> well that's obviously true
[11:41] <ajmitch> of course we hate users
[11:41] <joejaxx> yes you should all be ashamed of yourselves :(
[11:41] <ajmitch> it's what we do all day
[11:41] <KriS83> Hi :)

[11:42] <crimsun> I wonder how I can make users' lives miserable!!
[11:42] <joejaxx> crimsun: i know we can think of something
[11:42] <crimsun> lj: people who say such things tend to forget that developers are users, too
[11:44] <LaserJock> well, I can imagine finding it on the forums, but I didn't expect it on planet
[11:44] <LaserJock> I guess I'm going to have my post-release blues after all
[11:44] <LaserJock> and then get back in the game
[11:44] <ajmitch> heh
[11:44] <ajmitch> I know how it is
[11:44] <LaserJock> I just wish for once a release was a happy thing
[11:44] <Lutin_> is there a way to lower an epoch version (eg. if I increased the epoch when I shouldn't, and I want to change it back)
[11:45] <crimsun> oh believe me, a release is always a happy thing.
[11:45] <crimsun> We no longer have to support Hoary!
[11:45] <ajmitch> yay
[11:45] <joejaxx> crimsun: i have thought of something!
[11:45] <ajmitch> Lutin_: if the package has already been uploaded, then no
[11:45] <crimsun> joejaxx: removing fluxbox from the archive? ;)
[11:46] <ajmitch> you're stuck with an epoch forever
[11:46] <ajmitch> crimsun: yay!
[11:46] <joejaxx> crimsun: quick someone plug the plug on the cisco router routing replies to the universe server!
[11:46] <joejaxx> crimsun: haha yes
[11:46] <theCore> crimsun, is there really people still using Hoary?
[11:47] <crimsun> oh yes
[11:47] <theCore> servers?
[11:47] <crimsun> there are people still using Debian Potato, in fact
[11:47] <ajmitch> of course
[11:47] <Lutin_> ajmitch: theres really _no_ way to come back ?
[11:47] <ajmitch> I still use sarge at home
[11:47] <ajmitch> Lutin_: that's why epochs come with a big warning
[11:47] <joejaxx> crimsun: :)
[11:47] <joejaxx> crimsun: what whould people do with out universe
[11:47] <Q-FUNK> OOo can really be a pain in the arse, sometimes... *sigh*
[11:48] <crimsun> joejaxx: maybe get a cup of tea, read the paper, yanno, have a life...
[11:48] <joejaxx> crimsun: lol :P
[11:48] <theCore> I started using Linux on Hoary... *sigh* It feel like a part of me has been removed :P
[11:48] <_MMA_> crimsun: He raked the yard the other day. :)
[11:50] <Lutin_> ajmitch: okay, thanks
[11:51] <luisbg> http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/10/28/239258.shtml
[11:52] <ajmitch> yes, we've seen that a few times now
[11:53] <luisbg> ajmitch, sorry, just saw it now... btw what does "QA" mean?
[11:54] <Plug> quality assurance
[11:54] <luisbg> ooh ok ;)
[11:55] <theCore> ah, the horror, I installed a checkinstall package
[11:56] <theCore> fast, apt-get remove
[11:56] <theCore> ah....
[11:56] <imbrandon> theCore: eh?
[11:57] <theCore> imbrandon, got checkinstall on your highlighting list? :)
[11:57] <joejaxx> theCore: apt-get --purge remove LOL
[11:57] <imbrandon> grrr
[11:57] <luisbg> what's wrong LaserJock ?
[11:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: :(
[11:58] <LaserJock> luisbg: that slashdot story
[11:58] <imbrandon> deop isnt working, i hate irssi sometimes
[11:58] <luisbg> LaserJock, don't stress about it, some anti-ubuntu posted the story... but read the comments of it... loads of "hey! I had no problem" and lots of ubuntu love
[11:59] <luisbg> plus... it's known (and especially in open source) that the ones with troubles make much more noise than the "all went perfect"
[12:01] <theCore> feisty is open?
[12:02] <luisbg> theCore, more or less
[12:02] <luisbg> main is
[12:02] <imbrandon> less
[12:02] <luisbg> but the rest is not
[12:02] <poningru> hhe
[12:02] <bhale> has anyone upgraded?
[12:02] <luisbg> so it's in a opening state, but closed still
[12:02] <luisbg> bhale, to feisty? makes no sense
[12:03] <LaserJock> hmm, surely I have a production server I can dist-upgrade to feisty
[12:03] <imbrandon> bhale: i have one box siting in the corner thats gonna try to ride it out
[12:03] <theCore> LaserJock, looking for troubles?
[12:03] <imbrandon> but it does nothing currently
[12:03] <imbrandon> i think its a p200 :)
[12:04] <bhale> nice
[12:04] <bhale> luisbg: of course it makes sense, I am core-dev, and have things to do
[12:04] <bhale> I usually do start with a debootstrap, though
[12:05] <luisbg> bhale, indeed in your case it does
[12:05] <luisbg> I thought core-dev's were taking a post-release vacation
[12:06] <theCore> how big is the divergence of edgy with debian is, right now?
[12:06] <bhale> not all of us work for Canonical
[12:06] <imbrandon> luisbg: i've seen 4 core-devs talk in the last 10 minutes :) ( including me )
[12:06] <imbrandon> not all of us are paid ( though it would be cool )
[12:06] <bhale> I disagree
[12:06] <zul> some core-devs are around there arent talking though
[12:07] <bhale> I like getting to thumb my nose at Mark's silly ideas
[12:07] <imbrandon> moins zul
[12:07] <LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean?
[12:07] <LaserJock> theCore: how many ubuntuX packages are there?
[12:07] <zul> hey imbrandon
[12:07] <LaserJock> well, Kamion is around enough to reject my too-late-for-edgy upload
[12:07] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:08] <theCore> LaserJock, no, the number of packages that has a higher version number
[12:08] <theCore> LaserJock, that will need to be sync'd
[12:08] <imbrandon> theCore: really depends on how you look at it, on a package level , very little, on a installed system level they might as well be diffrent sepcies
[12:08] <imbrandon> its all in your view of divergance
[12:08] <LaserJock> theCore: higher version in Ubuntu or in Debian?
[12:09] <theCore> LaserJock, in Debian
[12:09] <LaserJock> oh
[12:09] <LaserJock> lots
[12:09] <luisbg> imbrandon, I'm still new to the channel so don't know which people are what yet :S
[12:09] <imbrandon> theCore: about 2 months worth of debian uploads or so
[12:09] <LaserJock> theCore: 3799 right
[12:09] <LaserJock> now
[12:09] <theCore> ouch
[12:09] <imbrandon> luisbg: :)
[12:10] <luisbg> imbrandon, so you are a core-dev too?
[12:10] <LaserJock> luisbg: don't worry, we don't either ;-)
[12:10] <imbrandon> luisbg: yes
[12:10] <luisbg> LaserJock, what worry or know who is who?
[12:10] <LaserJock> know who is who
[12:10] <imbrandon> luisbg: as is crimsun and ajmitch and quite a number of others in here :)
[12:10] <zul> yeah but ajmitch is a slacker ;)
[12:10] <LaserJock> it's the post-edgy insanity I tell you!
[12:10] <imbrandon> hehehe
[12:11] <LaserJock> I'm mad, I'm mad!
[12:11] <LaserJock> mwuahahaha
[12:11] <LaserJock> we duh