=== Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-directory === nkassi [n=nkassi@WK20-156.lewisweb.net] has joined #ubuntu-directory === abartlet [n=abartlet@dp.samba.org] has joined #ubuntu-directory [03:52] howdy abartlet. [04:10] it would be sweet if you could set up an area of the wiki that was read-only to non-project members [04:11] unfortunately any kind of brain-storming on the wiki turns...less than productive (see any page containing Community in the title) [04:15] yes, it does quickly turn into a bit of a mess [04:18] ajmitch: mmm, if only RecentChanges could be filtered by karma ;) [04:19] hah [04:19] you've seen the insane amounts of karma given for support requests? [04:22] ajmitch: true, but if its not used for anything I doubt anyone will bother to adjust the weighting [04:23] it's meant to be used for important things, like business partnerships with canonical [04:24] which is why having broken karma weightings is worrying [04:27] They (LP people) said it should settle down after a couple of weeks, but it's been several. [04:28] months [04:30] True. [04:30] ajmitch: well I see it is a chicken <> egg thing, where nothing important will use it unless its fixed [04:30] robertj: The fix is quite simple. Disable support karma! [04:30] Or divide it by 1000000 or something. [04:31] Fujitsu: I think its valid, it just needs to be devalued substantially [04:31] And the lack of Soyuz karma is a little strange. [04:32] now that I've started using an RSS reader instead of visiting planets all day, I realize how pointless most of the garbage is [04:33] I'm _really_ hoping GOOG will implement some Advogato-style magic [04:33] What garbage where? [04:33] Fujitsu: well 99.99% of everything everywhere is crap [04:33] doubly-so for things that find their way to RSS :) [04:34] Probably. [04:34] Fujitsu: and eventually, bzr karma.. [04:35] which would be horribly difficult to quantify [04:35] It would, yes. [04:35] since I'm the sort of person who would commit every 5-10 minutes while working on something, while others commit daily [04:35] ajmitch: I think that's horribly bound to fail [04:35] I like to keep commits nice & small & independent changes [04:35] I'm the former sort... [04:35] Hm. [04:35] robertj: sure, doesn't mean they won't do it :) [04:36] Somebody decided that nss-updatedb was the package for /usr/bin/updatedb [04:36] Great. [04:36] ajmitch: network-flow based algorithms are the only viable choice I see for karma [04:36] yes, I reassigned that to slocate [04:36] robertj: it's closed source, we can't do anythign about it but complain [04:36] Good, though I didn't see an email about it. === Fujitsu restrains self from ranting about LP's closedness. [04:37] :-) [04:37] Isn't LP supposed to be OSS eventually? [04:37] It is seriously bad! [04:37] robertj: That last word is the keyword. [04:37] robertj: It's been going to be OSS soon for over 2 years now. [04:37] robertj: 'eventually' could be 5-10 years [04:37] What ajmitch said. [04:38] By which time countless volunteer hours will have been lost because of the patheticness of the UI, and the lack of useful features. [04:38] 'cause Malone's search rocks. [04:38] is anyone going to be bringing this up at MVS? [04:38] And finding the way to file a bug on a package in Ubuntu is soooo easy from the LP homepage. That gets a lot of new people. [04:39] robertj: Little point, Mark will probably just step on anybody that does. [04:39] robertj: we could bring it up all we want, but what good will it do? [04:39] it's a known problem [04:39] ajmitch: what is he waiting on? [04:39] sure, we could hack around it by implementing our own free software launchpad [04:39] robertj: for when he feels like it [04:40] hey guy [04:40] it's all one large interwoven zope3 app, so it's hard to even free various components without splitting them out [04:40] ajmitch: That's not toooooooo impractical (emphasis on the tooooo). [04:40] s [04:40] Hey lophyte. [04:41] (the writing a FOSS LP) [04:41] ajmitch: Or so they say. That could just be an excuse) [04:41] what's in there they wouldn't want to be FOSS? [04:41] robertj: Soyuz. [04:41] Fujitsu: apparantly it requires people to step up & help out [04:41] and malone [04:42] ajmitch: Oh, and sign NDAs. Great. [04:42] and various other parts which give them a competitive advantage [04:42] Fujitsu: of course [04:42] If they were really innocent, they wouldn't have interwoven anything in the first place. [04:42] no [04:42] it's just easier to make a system that is well integrated [04:43] apparantly he'd be happy with freeing rosetta & the product registry to start with [04:43] It is easier, but it also gives the advantage of an excuse for not opening it. [04:43] Of course, if he freed those two, there's no reason Malone and Soyuz couldn't be reimplemented by the FOSS community in a reasonable length of time. [04:45] I've got it! [04:45] https://launchpad.net/faq [04:45] He'll release them under the CDDL or whatever it's called! [04:45] "Launchpad is a large, monolithic, web application. We would be happy to release the code for the Registry, for example, which keeps track of all upstream products and their series and releases; however, that code will not run without the distribution management code, which is part of of the service that Canonical provides to other companies that make their own distributions." [04:46] Yes, I've read that many, many times. [04:46] Soyuz is the big thing. [04:46] for the distro point of view, yes [04:46] But does he really think other commercial distros are going to use LP? [04:47] yes === ajmitch wonders if he should reject this f-spot bug [04:47] O_o [04:47] That's incredible. [04:47] What is it, ajmitch? [04:47] "however, that code will not run without the distribution management code, which is part of of the service that Canonical provides to other companies that make their own distributions." <- what companies are those? [04:48] robertj: None at this time. [04:48] Fujitsu: plugging in the camera starts the gthumb importer, not f-spot [04:48] which was a decision we made (or we kept the status quo) [04:48] That's g-v-m, innit? [04:48] yes [04:48] it's a gconf setting [04:48] alright.. back to setting this stuff up [04:48] Fujitsu: is HP still shipping laptops with Ubuntu? [04:48] I'm using heimdal now [04:48] robertj: I don't know. [04:48] HP is shipping laptops with ubuntu? [04:49] ajmitch: btw, I was elated to see I can right click & eject in Nautilus' side-bar now :) [04:49] heh [04:49] robertj: Really? [04:49] I didn't notice that... [04:49] lophyte: they were ages ago...like...pre-breezy maybe? [04:49] That's annoyed a lot of people. [04:49] I didn't notice it because I'm used to it by now [04:49] (I probably didn't notice 'cause I don't use Nautilus) [04:50] sweet, maybe I'll look into getting an HP instead of a Dell. [04:50] Dell wouldn't sell me an OSless laptop for lower than retail price [04:50] so much for "Dell makes a computer for you" [04:50] doh, no right-click empty trash [04:50] lophyte: Dell makes money off the software they sell you [04:50] lophyte: I know, that infuriated me when I got my laptop in January. [04:50] lophyte: all those "free trials..." they get a cut I'm sure [04:51] I called them up and asked if I could get a laptop without Windows for cheaper.. [04:51] I said I didn't wanna pay for the license [04:51] they were like "sorry we can't do that" [04:52] lophyte: they are still cheaper $ for $ [04:53] than what? [04:53] if you shop the sales they are cheaper than almost everyone (even emachines) [04:54] todays deal...Dell EPP E1505 Core 2 Duo 2.00GHz, 15.4" WXGA, 2GB, 80GB, DVDRW, $845 [04:54] that's....cheap [04:54] I was gonna get their cheapest one [04:54] it was like $615 or something [04:55] lophyte: I bought a 1405 for $607 a few months back [04:55] I think it was the Dimension 1100 [04:55] What! [04:55] 1100 at $600ish? [04:55] are you in the US? [04:55] I believe so... but I may be mistaken [04:55] one sec [04:55] Do you have a link to the Dell EPP E1505 ? [04:55] oh,sorry [04:55] I got the names mixed up, haha [04:56] EPP is more expensive than sales [04:56] moron ;_; [04:56] Dell Inspiron 1300 [04:56] That is exactly what I was going to get from HP but for 1500$ with taxes [04:56] oh thanks [04:56] Going to shop now ;0) [04:56] Dimension 1100 is like the cheapest desktop [04:56] right, Dimension is desktops.. [04:56] Inspiron is laptops [04:57] Latitude is also laptops [04:57] for home users the distinction between lines is minimal [04:57] http://www.fatwallet.com/t/18/666189/ [04:57] ugh.. I'm going to run cat5 one of these days [04:57] you pay more on one line for a guarantee that you can 3 years of replacement parts & that parts will interchange within all models in the given series [04:58] so take the machine you like best without regard to the series [04:58] actually I think it was the Inspiron 1100 [04:59] for $639 [05:00] lophyte: I've bought a $1505 too, they are nice [05:00] err e1505 [05:00] Bah, the HP 6000t still seems the best deal. [05:01] For those looking for a nice laptop. [05:01] btw, I'm showing the 1300 at $569 [05:01] M 1.7ghz/1gig [05:02] btbut if you can scrape it together the extra crash is way worth it for double the ram, much better proc & screen, and the burner [05:02] man.. [05:02] setting up ldap/kerb is such a long process [05:03] lophyte: isn't that why we are here ;) [05:03] indeed [05:03] hehe [05:03] i've never done it before [05:03] I'm using heimdal+openldap [05:03] but it's so fun! [05:04] http://www.openinput.com/auth-howto/ [05:04] using that howto ^ === ajmitch has only done it a couple of times - it didn't turn out to be too hard, but I did do a bit of reading [05:04] well, maybe more than a couple [05:05] ajmitch: you going to MVS right? [05:06] yes [05:06] can you _please_ pimp avahi advertisements of services like...maybe slapd? [05:07] hehe [05:07] what /is/ avahi, btw? [05:07] I haven't read up on it yet [05:07] lophyte: it is bliss [05:07] you know you can just drop files into /etc/avahi/services ? [05:07] lophyte: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8374 [05:07] well, drop service descriptions in there [05:08] if you follow all parts you should have a pretty nice setup ;-) [05:08] nkassi: ty.. maybe that'll be better than this howto I'm following [05:08] robertj: wanna elaborate on that? :P [05:08] lophyte: heard of bonjour/rendezvous? [05:09] isn't rendezvous like a LAN-based IM system? [05:09] lophyte: there are 4 parts by the way. They should turn up if you search on the LJ site. [05:09] nkassi: excellent.. thanks [05:09] lophyte: multicast DNS service discovery [05:10] ah, sweet. [05:12] lophyte: that looks like a good howto! [05:13] ajmitch: can you think of any reason a daemon shouldn't have an avahi service definition? [05:13] for once... [05:14] abartlet: which one? the one I pasted? [05:14] yeah [05:14] looks like a very high degree of clue [05:15] robertj: because people may not like it :) [05:15] hey abartlet [05:15] the only thing it needs is info on hooking Samba in, which you can do with heimdal [05:16] abartlet: what's the status of shared libraries with samba4? [05:16] if that howto was the basis of this ubuntu directory project, I would at least be happy it would start with a good basis, of exising software [05:16] jelmer said there were some issues.. [05:16] ajmitch: shared libraries are hard :-) [05:16] of course [05:16] but I think jelmer has them working for the moment [05:16] oh great [05:16] I'll have to chase him up :) [05:16] harder still is keeping APIs solid... [05:18] yeah [05:18] I really want to look at this new code for interfacing with AD that I've heard of [05:18] which bit? [05:19] joining domains, password changes, notifications, etc [05:19] all I've heard so far has been an article or two online & a novell podcast [05:19] perhaps move this over to #samba-technical? [05:20] sure [05:20] where does the list of services in System->Administration->Services come from? [05:20] robertj: probably /etc/init.d & related rcX.d directories [05:21] if it's the app I'm thinking of [05:22] ok, more difficult question, is there a way to list all packages that place files in /etc/init.d [05:23] going though those & weeding out the non-local services would probably be the most comprehensive list of files needing avahi service definitions :) [05:24] robertj: it'd be hard - maybe by apt-file [05:26] ajmitch: neuralis nailed it on -devel [05:26] I should read that.. [05:27] #-devel that is [05:27] robertj: apt-get install apt-file; apt-file update; apt-file search init.d [05:27] right === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-directory [06:07] Hey, what are the chances that samba 4.0 will be a part of the Ubuntu Directory on the server side ? [06:07] nkassi: given the server is currently no speced, I would say likely [06:07] cool. thanks. [06:08] however, samba4 is not out yhet [06:08] and we've just been talking with some samba people [06:08] it'll be awhile, certainly not likely for feisty [06:09] hehe, I pretty much guest that. From what I see the Server side will also be for feisty+1 right ? [06:10] guessed that ;)_ [06:10] unless soembody comes along [06:10] there'll be development work done in parallel for client & server, but it's most likely to be feisty+1 target [06:11] I would love to help but this stuff is way over my head right now ;0) === lophyte [n=dsulliva@bas5-toronto63-1096730685.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-directory [06:38] Burgundavia: so most of the AD integration stuff that SLED10 has is in samba3 [06:38] which is useful [06:38] ah, interesting [06:38] yeah [06:38] ajmitch: sanity check: our network auth connection stuff, which you are writing [06:38] makes sense that they wouldn't be using samba4 code yet [06:38] is there a way to get that to be cross-distro? [06:38] sorry? [06:39] cross-distro on which way? [06:39] reduce our support burden by having suse and rh join in and use it [06:39] the code I have is reasonably specific because of the package integration & the ways that distros differ with pam & other config files [06:39] ah, yes [06:39] sure, the core is all there, and it's fully extensible by modules [06:40] those pam differences is total crack [06:40] there is no sane reason for each distro to have its own version [06:40] but the current modules have some debian/ubuntu-specific stuff like reading/writing debconf values [06:40] ah [06:40] it's not hard to factor that out [06:40] osdl needs to have a network-auth summit [06:40] would be nice [06:41] so we should probably make sure we get samba 3.0.23c in feisty [06:41] might suggest that on desktop-architects [06:41] assuming that code we need is in there [06:41] debian already has .23 I think [06:42] but what revision? [06:42] ok, 3.0.23c [06:42] no idea [06:42] so it needs merged, I'll see if I can do that this week or next [06:43] pitti did it last, so I'll talk to him [06:43] what does our samba delta look like? [06:43] I'll have to look [06:43] don't ask me that when I'm only just checking it [06:44] yep, just wondering [06:44] the more I use beryl, the more plugins I turn off [06:46] you know that RH would ask why we didn't use authconfig instead [06:46] and suse will want to promote their tool [06:47] which I think is yast [06:47] we dont' we use authconfig? [06:47] ok, grabbed samba from edgy, now fetching from sid [06:47] because I wanted some of that debian specific stuff [06:48] what do you mean? [06:48] debconf, managing conffiles, packages, etc [06:48] ah [06:48] and I was going to use authtool in package maintainer scripts as well, which may still be an option [06:49] it'll probably still be needed [06:49] so that when you upgrade various libraries, it just DTRT [06:49] right [06:50] hence why the package got native versioning, etc [06:51] which I should probably change [06:51] whip up some screenshots [06:51] blog about it [06:51] is it really necessary to import the contents of /etc/group into an LDAP directory [06:51] rake in the millions [06:53] lophyte: it can be useful [06:54] oi.. seems like a lot of work [06:54] ok, seems like we don't have *too* many changes to samba, mostly well documented [06:55] it'll take a bit of picking through [06:55] lophyte: I believe there are some scripts online that can do it for you and output to ldif. [06:55] migration-tools package [06:55] oh, really [06:55] which I don't like much, but it tends to work [07:06] Fujitsu: it was me =) (the updatedb-bug) [07:06] it was a bit too late to triage bugs [07:06] tepsipakki: I noticed :) [07:06] tepsipakki: It can get that way sometimes, I know. [07:06] I was seeing nss- all over the place [07:06] heh [07:39] ah, more posts on the -directory thread on devel [08:39] nkassi: can you move the n-a/Server stuff to EasyLDAPServer ? [08:42] ok, got the goahead to do the samba merge, so we can have toys to play with === SimonAnibal [n=sruiz@66.244.123.100] has joined #ubuntu-directory === ^robertj [n=rcaskey@cai17.music.uga.edu] has joined #ubuntu-directory === wasabi [n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #ubuntu-directory [03:03] Burgundavia: Done [03:08] <^robertj> mornign all [03:09] morning === bmonty_away is now known as bmonty [03:14] ajmitch: ping [03:47] morning freedom lovers. [03:48] morning all [03:48] I like this shizit about Oracle and RedHat battling for the enterprise. [03:49] Lets sneak in under the radar and shoot both of em down. [03:49] <^robertj> wasabi_: also, it's worth noting that they aren't [03:49] Yeah hah [03:49] <^robertj> Oracle is supporting Oracle [03:49] Few server side installs. [03:49] <^robertj> "is there anything else on that server besides oracle? Sorry, that's not under your agreement" [03:50] Oracle announced on Wednesday that it would take RHEL, strip out the Red Hat (NASDAQ: RHAT - news) copyrights and add in Oracle bug fixes to create Unbreakable ? [03:50] Just to run Oracle? [03:50] <^robertj> that's my buess [03:50] <^robertj> err guess [03:50] Makes sense. [03:51] So does that mean all Oracle boxes are going to be forced to be DEDICATE Oracle boxes? [03:51] <^robertj> Im betting we will see 5-10 specific certifications for Unbreakable + a vm [03:54] Oh well, Oracle doesn't seem to realise the amount of PR they will need to do to get people's confidence, I mean the people who paid a good amount of money for Red Hat support [03:54] And what sort of patch are they going to provide that RH will not ? [03:54] Oracle specific ? [03:55] <^robertj> nkassi: probably a subset of security updates [03:58] I still don't see how that is going to make a difference, I believe that RH will be faster than Oracle to test and release them. What Oracle should do is buy RH. [04:01] <^robertj> could be sabre ratteling, I just don't care [04:01] <^robertj> I hope they don't buy RH though [04:01] <^robertj> so I guess I do, but either way I don't want to hear squat from some retard at /., cnet or digg [04:04] Anyone have experience with SystemImager? [04:05] ^robertj: hehe, oh well, it's bound to happen. [04:08] I'm wondering if it would be of use to me in my situation [04:08] ~300 workstations on 3 different model computers [04:08] I want to keep them all up to date and configured from one golden client, as it claims to do. [04:09] My old way (using Norton Ghost to re-image everytime) won't work with if it's not deployed on identical hardware [04:09] Got to go, see y'all. [04:10] Wondering if there might be a simpler/better solution out there that one of you might know about [04:11] Otherwise, I'll be diving into it [04:12] morning all [04:16] morning [04:17] bmonty: you around? [04:18] lophyte: hi [04:18] heya [04:18] would you be interested in collaborating and finishing the SingleSignOn howto together? [04:20] sure, I'm actually having to redo the setup on one of my machines, so the steps are fresh in my mind [04:20] cool.. I'm working on it too, in a Xen VM [04:20] the edgy upgrade did not deal well with my LDAP+Kerberos setup [04:20] Any LDAP pros know the true cost of doing async LDAP notify operation? [04:21] Socket open on the server I assume. [04:25] lophyte: is there any particular place you want to stazrt? [04:26] wasabi_: is a notify operation the server telling clients about a change? [04:26] Yes. [04:26] What's a reasonable top limit of open sockets on a server? [04:26] From a single process. [04:27] isn't that a kernel parameter? [04:27] I think the sys admin can set that, plus there is a limit based on available system resources [04:28] Yeah. Just curious what a real functional cost might be. [04:28] does OpenLDAP do the notify operation? [04:28] Believe so. Uses it for repl. [04:28] For instance if every client in an enterprise were to maintain a persistant query on passwd/group [04:28] ok, I can't remember seeing anything in the docs about pushing changes out to clients [04:29] It's a standard LDAP operation. [04:29] cool, I'll have to check that out [04:29] bmonty: LDAP configuration seems like the first thing that's missing [04:30] actually, adding a host principal into kerberos is missing.. [04:30] that involves installing krb5-admin-server and using kadmin.local, right [04:30] I'm switching to Heimdal. [04:31] I'm using heimdal, actually :P [04:31] Then it won't be krb5-admin-server you need. [04:31] nope..but the howto uses MIT [04:32] the MIT krb5 install takes care of creating an admin principal [04:32] ah [04:32] once you have the servers installed, it is fairly easy to run kadmin from any machine on your network [04:36] has anyone made a decision to make heimdal krb5 the standard for Ubuntu? [04:36] Nobody has made any decisions about anything. [04:36] I suspect that's where we'll end up on the server side though. [04:37] to me, that is a decision that needs to be made fairly early [04:37] Nobody is going to start a server implementation for a long time. [04:37] And the client side is portable enough. [04:44] any idea how closely the heimdal API mirrors the krb5 API? [04:44] MIT krb5 API that is [04:46] <^robertj> has anyone done an overview of the client side utils from Fedora, OS X, & Windows to see what is worth stealing? [04:46] There are very few differences. [04:46] They're not compatible, but whatever we build can be retrofitted in a few days. [04:47] Except for the kadmin protocol...but we'll need to support both of those anyways. [04:47] wasabi_: if stuff gets written in python, it shouldn't be too hard to hide the differences [04:47] I don't know what you expect to be written in python. [04:47] Heh. [04:47] Except a pretty config wizard. [04:48] Which ajmitch has been doing nicely on, btw. [04:48] <^robertj> wasabi_: is there an accompanying util? [04:48] for? [04:48] <^robertj> wizard is run once, right? [04:48] ^robertj: there is some stuff out there, but my general impression is that a lot is unmaintained, and the other stuff is very specific to a certain distro [04:49] <^robertj> bmonty: I mean't purely from a usability standpoint [04:49] The idea is for a program called "authtool", which accepts a minimal number of settings, either on the command line, or a UI, and configures the relavent client services. [04:49] ^robertj: usuability of what? [04:49] So, that's all text file parsing and command invoking. Perfect for Python. [04:49] The actual things it's setting up are all C. [04:50] <^robertj> wasabi: but is it going to wipe out all your old settings or can you go in and adjust one setting after it is all said and done [04:50] Depends. [04:50] wasabi_: if we were going to develop any GUI tools for the client, I see that being done in python [04:50] since not many exist, I expect that will have to happen [04:50] That stuff is so far down the road. [04:50] We're talking like, years. [04:51] I would much rather get some people working on making an Ubuntu box able to join a domain and Work Right. [04:51] <^robertj> wasabi: i'm talking purely client-side [04:51] You're talking client side tools for admining a server. [04:51] A server which we do not yet possess, and which will be way off. [04:51] Client side tools for a client, is really nothing but this one wizard. [04:51] <^robertj> nope [04:52] "Please enter your domain name. Are you running Active Directory? Thanks... configuring NSS and PAM now!" [04:52] <^robertj> wasabi: I've got a fair number of other options on my OS X box that are actually useful [04:53]