[09:34] <digitalmouse> greetings programs! :)
[12:27] <juliux> hi jsgotangco 
[12:59] <juliux> @schedule
[12:59] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00: Technical Board
[01:00] <pips1> hi
[01:00] <highvoltage> good afternoon
[01:00] <rodarvus> good morning :)
[01:01] <jsgotangco> hello
[01:01] <juliux> hi all
[01:01] <willvdl> hi
[01:01] <jsgotangco> just before we start i just want to say to everyone in edubuntu that i'll be leaving for a while and sort out things at work
[01:02] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: saw your post to -doc
[01:02] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: will you be able to make ec meetings at least?
[01:02] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: sure but i was thinking of resigning there as well
[01:02] <highvoltage> ok
[01:02] <RichEd> hello all ... meeting will be starting in 2 minutes ... in the meanwhile, please all take a look at:
[01:02] <RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
[01:02] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: well, I hope you'll be able to make ec meetings for a while still
[01:03] <jsgotangco> its not like i wont go on irc, i'll just be a passive spectator that's all
[01:03] <pips1> jsgotangco the lurker!
[01:03] <RichEd> jsgotangco ? where was the post ? can you send it to me ?
[01:04] <RichEd> I'll post that page link again for Kamping_Kaiser :
[01:04] <RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
[01:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> thankyou
[01:04] <RichEd> That will be the basis for most of our meeting today. 
[01:04] <RichEd> We will need to look at the user requests, and match against the specs recorded ...
[01:05] <pips1> RichEd: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-November/007280.html
[01:05] <RichEd> And then see what is missing that we need to add to specs
[01:05] <ajmitch> especially the network-auth stuff
[01:05] <RichEd> I myself will need some technical help with the matching :)
[01:06] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: how long do you think you'll be away for? do you have an idea how long it would take to finish doing the block of work that you're taking on?
[01:07] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i plan to take a rest the whole of feisty and just be a user then come back on feisty+1
[01:07] <highvoltage> ah, ok
[01:08] <jsgotangco> i'd still do some stuff though but not so much involved
[01:08] <highvoltage> so roughly 5-6 months
[01:08] <ajmitch> RichEd: how much overlap is there in some of those specs?
[01:08] <ajmitch> eg edubuntu-network-auth-server and easy-ldap-server, or edubuntu-network-auth-client & network-authentication
[01:08] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i felt i haven't been that much effective lately so i'll take a rest on that and focus
[01:08] <Kamping_Kaiser> ajmitch, we dont know - i finished colating them 10 minutes ago
[01:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> mabye 15
[01:09] <RichEd> ajmitch: not sure, we can talk them through ?
[01:09] <highvoltage> ajmitch: I believe the current list is just a summary of different suggestions that have come up, the list itself still needs to be refined and cleaned up
[01:09] <RichEd> [01:10] <RichEd> [01:10] <RichEd> all do a quick refresh ... I neatened / fixed the bullets
[01:10] <ajmitch> RichEd: ok, I think we can probably reduce the duplication
[01:10] <ajmitch> I've subscribed to all the auth-related ones for mtv
[01:11] <rodarvus> dude
[01:11] <rodarvus> someone added about four pages of information in the last 30 seconds :D
[01:11] <RichEd> great ... I'll add comments to the wiki doc as we work through in the meeting, and we can clarify ...
[01:11] <ajmitch> rodarvus: heh ok :)
[01:11] <RichEd> rodarvus: mostly cut & pastes from the users emails ... quite a lot of overlap we will be able to knock out
[01:12] <rodarvus> *nods*
[01:12] <RichEd> right ... can I ask you all to scroll to:
[01:12] <RichEd> General Existing Request
[01:13] <RichEd> Dynamic Menus <- this is already being worked on by LaserJock ... the ability to be able to switch desktop menus ... I think it is significant for teachers in a mixed audience environment
[01:14] <RichEd> So I would like to add my personal priority support for this one.
[01:14] <RichEd> I'll make sure it is up for a UDS discussion topic
[01:14] <RichEd> The next 2 items:
[01:14] <RichEd> #
[01:14] <RichEd> Edubuntu "bundle" for Seconday Schools
[01:14] <RichEd> #
[01:14] <RichEd> Edubuntu "bundle" for Universities
[01:15] <RichEd> This will largely be:
[01:15] <fernando> "ltsp-fat-clients" duplication on discussion doc
[01:15] <willvdl> presumably this maps to the CD pack debate?
[01:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> fernando, theres probably a block of 5 that are duped - i double pasted
[01:16] <RichEd> willvdl: yep that will be more in the *how* but let's talk about the requirement first
[01:16] <RichEd> 1. a different desktop menu
[01:16] <RichEd> 2. different base install applications
[01:16] <RichEd> --
[01:16] <RichEd> Can someone give me guidance on who selects the menu and base install applications ?
[01:17] <jsgotangco> its called seeds
[01:17] <jsgotangco> techboard does that
[01:17] <rodarvus> it would be nice to have LaserJock here to complement the default explanation with his work
[01:17] <jsgotangco> as well as -desktop
[01:17] <RichEd> jsgotangco: does techboard do this across Ubuntu and Edubuntu ?
[01:17] <rodarvus> but as jsgotangco says yes, this is done on a per-distro basis (ubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu and kubuntu)
[01:18] <highvoltage> the preseeds usually just selects the -desktop package, and then the -desktop package is dependent on all the programs that should be installed.
[01:18] <rodarvus> the techboard gives recommendation on what each distro should have
[01:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco, does that mean 'tech bord do in asociation with edubuntu', or 'they say what edubuntu gets'?
[01:18] <jsgotangco> RichEd: depends on the seeds
[01:18] <highvoltage> at the moment ogra maintains edubuntu-desktop, afaik
[01:18] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: depends on the seed management
[01:18] <rodarvus> but we (edubuntu core devs) have a reasonable free hand on what we add to our 'seeds'
[01:18] <RichEd> and how early does this get fixed in the spec process ?
[01:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok
[01:18] <rodarvus> and ogra has chosen not to add to Edubuntu stuff that was added to Ubuntu in the past
[01:18] <rodarvus> (for space restrictions, mainly)
[01:19] <RichEd> Do we have to have this list of applications completed by the end of UDS, or is there time to add to them ?
[01:19] <rodarvus> so, I'd say techboard gives the direction on the 'skeleton' packaegs that *must* be present. We (Edubuntu) have a free hand to chose the rest.
[01:19] <jsgotangco> you don't have to decide during the sprint
[01:19] <ajmitch> I believe there's time after UDS to finalise specs & even propose more
[01:19] <jsgotangco> but you can raise to the techboard during the sprint that you'd like this
[01:20] <rodarvus> we'll have plenty of weeks after UDS to chose what packages we want, but its nice to have something done on this regard, during the week
[01:21] <RichEd> Right, so can we suggest what "dicsussion topic" we can create to cover this ... something like: "mutiple edubuntu 'editions" and how to cope with them"
[01:21] <RichEd> sub-topics
[01:21] <RichEd> - space considerations
[01:21] <RichEd> - application considerations
[01:21] <rodarvus> RichEd, right.
[01:21] <RichEd> - when we need the final list
[01:21] <jsgotangco> correct
[01:21] <rodarvus> I can add a feature for this
[01:21] <rodarvus> and we can ask mdz to mark it as essential or at least high priority
[01:21] <RichEd> - what testing needs to be done
[01:21] <rodarvus> (your feedback on this will make sure it gets prioritized correctly ;) )
[01:22] <RichEd> - what licence checking needs to be done
[01:22] <highvoltage> RichEd: there's also packaging. software that ships with edubuntu has to be in main as well, afaiu
[01:23] <RichEd> highvoltage: noted ... main / universe / multi-verse etc needs to be part of the discussion
[01:23] <RichEd> okay ... I'll make a topic based on the above ... I will do it on the wiki page first, and then register it in launchpad
[01:23] <RichEd> moving on to the requests now from list subscribers
[01:24] <RichEd> Eric Harrison : K12LTSP
[01:24] <RichEd> Eric will be at UDS, hosted by Oliver and myself ... and note that David Trask is an educator tagging along with Eric.
[01:25] <highvoltage> oh great
[01:25] <highvoltage> I wish I could be there to meet them too :)
[01:25] <RichEd> Eric is a *significant person to get happy with Edubuntu*
[01:25] <rodarvus> RichEd, I took notes too. as soon as we're finished with the meeting (and after a few other things) I'll create the spec, and send email to you and mdz
[01:26] <rodarvus> ok to go ahead with that?
[01:26] <jsgotangco> Eric is great
[01:26] <RichEd> rodarvus: fine ...
[01:26] <RichEd> :)
[01:26] <RichEd>  Management issues i.e.
[01:26] <RichEd>     *
[01:26] <RichEd>       adding/deleting users
[01:26] <RichEd>     *
[01:26] <RichEd>       group management
[01:26] <RichEd>     *
[01:26] <RichEd>       different desktop configurations for different groups
[01:26] <RichEd>     *
[01:26] <RichEd>       monitoring usage
[01:26] <RichEd>     *
[01:27] <RichEd> Which fearures at the top of the page cover this area ?
[01:27] <RichEd> *features
[01:28] <RichEd> [different desktop configurations for different groups]  this obviously fits into the dynamic menus
[01:28] <ajmitch> edubuntu-network-auth-server covers some of the user/group management via smbldap
[01:28] <willvdl> as does nis-ldap-migration?
[01:28] <ajmitch> yeah
[01:28] <RichEd> okay ... and  ltsp-management-gui ?
[01:28] <ajmitch> direectory services team has been busy writing up some stuff
[01:29] <willvdl> and easy-ldap-server?
[01:29] <ajmitch> yes
[01:29] <rodarvus> RichEd, what day do you plan to arrive in the US?
[01:29] <ajmitch> I'm not sure if we want to try & resolve overlap now or at UDS
[01:30] <RichEd> ajmitch: I'll dig deeper on those in LP and see what notes people have, and that may clarify
[01:30] <RichEd> rodarvus: saturday just after lunch 
[01:30] <fernando> ajmitch: are you a directory service team member?
[01:31] <ajmitch> fernando: yes, I'm fairly involved
[01:31] <rodarvus> RichEd, Saturday the 4th, or the 11th? (just to make sure :) )
[01:31] <ajmitch> since I've got a reasonable chunk of GUI code for client setup
[01:31] <RichEd> rodarvus: 4th :)
[01:32] <RichEd> okay ... moving on: Remote access
[01:32] <rodarvus> great!!
[01:32] <RichEd> comments ?
[01:32] <RichEd> Ubiquitous access to computers in schools is a great thing.
[01:32] <RichEd> Ubiquitous access to those computing resources from the kids' homes is even better.
[01:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> what sort of remote acccess?
[01:33] <willvdl> vpn?
[01:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> off site, or 'i see your screen'?
[01:33] <RichEd> I'm presuming he is talking about accessing your school work on the school server while on your home PC
[01:34] <RichEd> --- it this a reasonable requirement at this stage of our development, given that not all that many of our users will have a PC and internet at home ?
[01:34] <jsgotangco> that's pretty cutting edge
[01:34] <jsgotangco> i mean why can't moodle stack up to something like that
[01:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> remote access from home i wouldnt do now. 'teacher sees student screen' i would suport now
[01:34] <RichEd> I think in the US, the home PC and cheap internet may be a reasonable chunk of people, but not for the rest of the world
[01:35] <RichEd> Okay ... I agree with Kamping_Kaiser 
[01:35] <jsgotangco> if its just within the lab its doable
[01:35] <RichEd> 'teacher sees student screen' <- are there existing open source tools that will do this, and which will work with Edubuntu ?
[01:35] <RichEd> highvoltage ???
[01:35] <willvdl> highvoltage, NetOps! :)
[01:35] <highvoltage> RichEd: I think it's part of the long term goals for s-c-p
[01:36] <jsgotangco> vnc, nx, stuff like that
[01:36] <RichEd> i.e. the question is ... do we need to develop this, or can we bundle an existing application
[01:36] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: I believe s-c-p will have some kind of vnc integration at some stage
[01:36] <highvoltage> RichEd: it's being develeped
[01:36] <jsgotangco> its pretty doable as an s-c-p plugin for sure
[01:37] <highvoltage> pity cbx33 isn't here
[01:37] <RichEd> highvoltage: thanks ... but how do we ensure that it is in feisty ? can you pin it down for me ?
[01:37] <highvoltage> he has some ideas around that
[01:38] <willvdl> highvoltage, isn't there some schooltool devel in that arena too?
[01:38] <highvoltage> RichEd: ogra is looking at some open source nx too, there's a bunch of technical options a tthis stage, but it's impossible for me to give an estimate on timeline, it certainly looks possible for feisty, whether it's plausable would be discussed at the summit
[01:38] <RichEd> questions for ignorant me ... I presume this would be expected to work over any networked clients and not just an LTSP setup
[01:39] <RichEd> and #2 would anyone see this as being a general ubuntu requirement ?
[01:39] <highvoltage> willvdl: in schooltool? not that I've seen before. must be very new if there is :)
[01:39] <jsgotangco> it adds up another layer of bandwidth for LTSP already if you use remote access
[01:39] <RichEd> i.e. in an iCafe, that would also be useful
[01:39] <jsgotangco> but a typical school lab would like to do that
[01:40] <highvoltage> RichEd: it should work on full machines too, it might be dependent on installins some additional software on the machine, but that shouldn't be a problem
[01:40] <rodarvus> sorry, I was reading specs and lost the meaty vnc stuff
[01:40] <RichEd> and my #2 what chance is there that Ubuntu people would see a need for this in the general network world ?
[01:40] <rodarvus> afaik, not only SCP should be able to do it, but it is on the TODO Plans
[01:41] <RichEd> would it be useful for a help desk support person where the clients are using Ubuntu on the work desktop ?
[01:41] <rodarvus> remote access is easily doable on the teachers computer, using vnc
[01:41] <rodarvus> if I'm not mistaken, there is even a button for this already
[01:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, remote vision would help for helpdesk
[01:41] <jsgotangco> RichEd: its already used heavily, we just need to integrate it
[01:41] <jsgotangco> the technology is pretty mature
[01:41] <rodarvus> (which might have been removed just in time for freeze, when cbx33 didn't had the time to finish the feature)
[01:41] <RichEd> jsgotangco: bang on the head ... if it exists, we need to provide directions
[01:42] <jsgotangco> like what the others said you have vnc and nx
[01:42] <jsgotangco> and s-c-p integrated
[01:42] <highvoltage> yep.
[01:42] <RichEd> okay ... I'll make a topic for integrated remote access / remote mangement of client workstations
[01:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> scp?
[01:42] <highvoltage> Kamping_Kaiser: student control panel
[01:42] <rodarvus> Student Control Panel
[01:42] <RichEd> we can talk about the current state and future plans at the session
[01:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> aaah, thanks
[01:43] <rodarvus> better call it SCP or s-c-p, so we don't confuse with 'scp' from OpenSSH :)
[01:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> thats why i wondered ;)
[01:43] <RichEd> [01:43] <RichEd> Wireless/mobile devices: We are seeing more and more "non-desktop" computing devices
[01:44] <highvoltage> that's rodarvus's area of expertise :)
[01:44] <RichEd> rodarvus and I have been chatting with mark around some areas that touch on this ...
[01:44] <RichEd> Mark's feeling is that the current level of school child mobile device is not a signficant education tool
[01:45] <Kamping_Kaiser> ++
[01:45] <RichEd> I do not think we need to lead here ... more keep our eye on developements, and make sure that people who are heading in this directions themselves consider us for a platform.
[01:45] <RichEd> i.e. we will not kick off or champion any projects
[01:46] <RichEd> so I'm dropping that one to the bottom of the list
[01:46] <RichEd> [01:46] <rodarvus> agreed
[01:46] <highvoltage> it's also dependent on a mature ubuntu-embedded
[01:46] <rodarvus> (and work would be too heavy stuff for it to be lead by us)
[01:47] <pips1> there are some field test with mobile devices used in education with students... I read a report somewhere
[01:47] <RichEd> highvoltage: and that's just to get the end user device ... then there is formatted content, push server, cost management al that to go through before the first useful lesson is delivered !
[01:47] <jsgotangco> on our side we've been looking at the gumstix
[01:47] <jsgotangco> but on the server side
[01:48] <highvoltage> RichEd: indeed :)
[01:48] <RichEd> [01:48] <RichEd> Web-based applications: Applications such as Moodle are in high demand
[01:48] <pips1> true
[01:48] <willvdl> LAMS
[01:49] <RichEd> This topic has been raised before ... can someone give me comments on that is practically being suggested ? Bundling Moodle functionality into Edubuntu ?
[01:49] <RichEd> on *what is
[01:49] <jsgotangco> LAMS is pretty cutting edge but has a logical workflow
[01:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> whas in demand - what moodle provides, or web based apps?
[01:50] <jsgotangco> but Moodle functionality is relative to how one uses it
[01:50] <RichEd> LAMs is a partner that we need to get close to ... but as I understand it ... this would all run in a web browser ? Please correct me if I am wrong.
[01:50] <RichEd> Same for moodle based information sites ?
[01:50] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:50] <willvdl> not only moodle, but schooltool, library packages, SAMS and the like
[01:51] <RichEd> So is there a need for us to develop or integrate anything ? That is the part I am not sure about
[01:51] <jsgotangco> well
[01:51] <jsgotangco> you're already have schooltool
[01:51] <jsgotangco> packaging moodle has been a target before
[01:51] <highvoltage> the schooltool bundled with edubuntu is very limited though
[01:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> choosing one thing and shifting it into main, and leaving other stuff in universe but available makes sense - i just cant offer an option on what to select wehre
[01:52] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:52] <RichEd> ^^ jsgotangco: that is what I meant by previous discussions ... what would packaging entail ?
[01:52] <highvoltage> Kamping_Kaiser: it also gives the software a change to be widely tested before it becomes supported
[01:52] <RichEd> wouldn't moodle be like any other application ?
[01:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> yse, true
[01:52] <highvoltage> s/change/chance
[01:53] <jsgotangco> RichEd: well as a webapp, it has its usual dependencies
[01:53] <jsgotangco> you're basically running a webserver
[01:53] <pips1> The way I see the Moodle / LAMS / insert-your-edu-web-application-here situation is: the management issues will be crucial for their adoption.. If it is easy to setup (by a.) lab admins and b.) teachers ) and use (by teachers and students), it will be used. However, a big problem is the whole unresolved/non-integrated "identity management" issue (Authentication, User/Groups Management)
[01:53] <highvoltage> at the edubuntu summit, php was an issue. lots of ubuntu developers felt that php should not be included in any ubuntu CD
[01:54] <highvoltage> and moodle and mediawiki depends on php, so it was a big issue.
[01:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> should something as big as moode+depends be on the cd though?
[01:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> i thougth it was pretty chunky addition
[01:55] <RichEd> so ... in our thinking we have been bouncing around about "approved official ubuntu / edubuntu space" and the planned "end user unofficial ubuntu and education space" would it make sense then to slowly bring Moodle and LAMs in from the "recommended by other users" space, and then we can slowly look at moving it towards the ofdicial space ?
[01:55] <rodarvus> actually, MediaWiki itself was a much bigger problem than PHP
[01:56] <RichEd> *official space ?
[01:56] <rodarvus> PHP has a huge history with security - but its bugs are always plugged in time
[01:56] <jsgotangco> we do support PHP as well
[01:56] <highvoltage> RichEd: I think that's a great suggestion, when the work has already been 'done' unofficially, it's much easier to bring in officially later on
[01:56] <jsgotangco> but Mediawiki has a history
[01:56] <RichEd> i.e. get comments and experiences from people using it, some forum discussions, some "if you8 want to use it here are some recommendations"
[01:56] <rodarvus> while MediaWiki's recommendation is "upgrade to latest version", which is not practical for linux distributions
[01:56] <rodarvus> (and much worse for a LTS such as Dapper was)
[01:57] <pips1> RichEd: ++
[01:57] <highvoltage> and the web packages in ubuntu goes largely unmaintained, so it's difficult to use
[01:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> rodarvus, sounds like moz.corp :(
[01:57] <highvoltage> for example, drupal in ubuntu is still on 4.5.8-2
[01:57] <RichEd> highvoltage: yes, because we also get an idea of how much the end user community wants the application, and then this can add weight to the later php bunfight 
[01:57] <highvoltage> that's ancient :)
[01:57] <highvoltage> RichEd: yep
[01:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> would up to date versions of these packages help people adpot/trial them?
[01:58] <RichEd> okay ... noted ... [01:58] <pips1> Did anyone understand my point about the non-integrated "user management" above at all? :)
[01:58] <jsgotangco> RichEd: sometimes, these tihngs are better off installed sepeartely by the user for various reasons (maintainability on the distros part, security, etc)
[01:59] <RichEd> jsgotangco: agreed ... we have been suggesting a space for suggestions like this ... "you are on your own but you may find this useful"
[01:59] <pips1> anyway, just to be realistic: I don't think any web-apps like Moodle/LAMS/etc. will end up in "main" Feisty
[01:59] <RichEd> and if the demand is high, we move towards the official support
[02:00] <RichEd> i.e. "a free for all advice space", with a path to upstream, with its usual approvals and hurdles
[02:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, are you thingking 'external (not packaged) -> packaged (universe) -> packaged (main) ?
[02:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> and you say you can use from anyware, and if its more used, it goes closer to main?
[02:01] <pips1> Kamping_Kaiser: I think that is how it should ideally work
[02:01] <RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: yes, with one more step ... the space will say clearly that this is NOT official ubuntu / edubuntu policy or approved ... for example ...
[02:02] <RichEd> There are some applications that people pay for, but which they find value for money, but which would phreak out the hard core FOSS crowd. We still want to be able to make our users aware of what is being used, and they can make their own decisions.
[02:02] <jsgotangco> RichEd: well we can say we don't package this, but we provide instructions on how to do this in edubuntu when you download tar.gz from blah
[02:03] <pips1> RichEd: when you are restructuring that UdsMtvEdubuntu page, I suggest you try to think along the following lines: Requirements
[02:03] <pips1> A. Users Viewpoint
[02:03] <pips1> B. Technical Viewpoint (*buntu Implementation/Developers)
[02:03] <RichEd> noted pips1 
[02:04] <RichEd> [02:04] <RichEd> Flawless, easy support for Linux servers supporting Mac and Windows clients.
[02:04] <RichEd> Flawless, easy support for Linux clients/servers in Mac and/or Windows centric environments.
[02:04] <flint> RichEd, speaking of time, just converted to daylight savings... 
[02:04] <RichEd> --> I see these as fitting into and being covered by the network auth topic ?
[02:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> in what way does the linux server have to support rthe client? (perhaps i should be thinking big here?)
[02:05] <rodarvus> RichEd, not really, I think
[02:05] <rodarvus> it is the other way around
[02:05] <rodarvus> (but can be dependant on network-authentication)
[02:06] <RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser:  I guess authenticating a Win W/S Mac OS against the user base
[02:06] <jsgotangco> like an active directory?
[02:06] <RichEd> Sharing server storage space, authentication to get out of firewall ?
[02:06] <rodarvus> my vote for this one is: its important, but not *really* Edubuntu specific, *and* dependant on network-authentication
[02:07] <jsgotangco> this is soo out of touch
[02:07] <jsgotangco> and way out of edubuntu's core competencies
[02:07] <RichEd> jsgotangco: I think he means in reverse of AD ... i.e. not our Edubuntu w/s authenticating against AD, but other clients authenticating against our logins
[02:07] <flint> rodarvus, you make a good point about not edubuntu specific...
[02:07] <RichEd> so, would this be a topic that would interest Ubuntu  ?
[02:08] <rodarvus> I also believe its a time consuming task. anyone cares enough for it to volunteer doing it in feisty timeframe?
[02:08] <rodarvus> I am able to help tutoring the developer in question, if there are takers for it.
[02:08] <jsgotangco> hackish
[02:08] <rodarvus> RichEd, yeah
[02:08] <RichEd> i.e. if you have an entire Ubuntu network, and the damn DTP / graphics department insists on using Macs, how do they fit into the network ?
[02:09] <flint> RichEd, we had macs booting off LTSP at NELS.
[02:09] <highvoltage> flint: that's different to authentication
[02:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> the questions more about auth isnt it?
[02:09] <RichEd> flint, but wasn't that Macs running *buntu, not MacOS
[02:09] <flint> RichEd, indeed it was... 
[02:09] <RichEd> Well I can create a feature topic, and we can see if anyone else subscribes ? If it dies, it dies.
[02:10] <RichEd> Note that this may also be being worked on by 3rd party util developers or even debian or other FOSS people.
[02:10] <rodarvus> indeed
[02:11] <pips1> They way I see it. All lot of the Requirements listed on the wiki page touch on lots of stuff that isn't Edubuntu-specific, but *buntu. Looking at it from the Distribution-Viewpoint, I suggest the following categories:  Technical Viewpoint
[02:11] <pips1> 0. "Bundling" (meta topic)
[02:11] <pips1> 1. Hardware/Device support (big overlap "Ubuntu-base" <-> Edubuntu)
[02:11] <pips1> 2. Networking (big overlap "Ubuntu-base" <-> Edubuntu)
[02:11] <pips1> 3. Applications (some overlap)
[02:11] <RichEd> So it is not necessarily our problem to solve. If the real world demand is that high, someone will be looking at it
[02:11] <pips1> 4. Content (some overlap, mainly Tech Doc)
[02:11] <rodarvus> Fedora has a tool for this, but its not automatic stuff
[02:11] <rodarvus> (and this tool can not be used on Ubuntu, at least not easily)
[02:11] <flint> RichEd, I got here late, but has anyone addressed the Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF) as part of our goals?
[02:12] <pips1> flint: no
[02:12] <RichEd> flint, give me one min on that ...
[02:12] <RichEd> pips1: 100% this is first pass discussion ... that page should shrink and refine over the next day or two, and again on Saturday when yourself and myself and ogra and rodarvus are in the same room.
[02:12] <flint> RichEd, I try to keep things entertaining :^)
[02:12] <highvoltage> RichEd: how will outside participation work?
[02:12] <RichEd> so pips1 your comment and structuring is right time at right place
[02:12] <jsgotangco> goo question
[02:13] <RichEd> highvoltage: that is the last topic ... we can fix the agenda to get there in 30 mins to give us 15 mins on that issue alone
[02:13] <pips1> flint: SIF is big in US, but not really on the map anywhere outside US, afaik
[02:14] <highvoltage> ok
[02:14] <willvdl> flint, I imagine that falls more into application space (schooltool etc)
[02:14] <RichEd> flint: Tom Hoffman has been working on OpenZIS and SIF and has built a demo ... he has been chatting to myself ans Steve Midgely
[02:14] <RichEd> *and
[02:14] <flint> pips1, ah sort of like SAE in mechanical areas...
[02:14] <RichEd> That is a big issue for Tom and Steve, but not so big for us (as per above comments)
[02:15] <RichEd> I am sure Tom would be thrilled to have you in his loop ?
[02:15] <flint> RichEd, The idea of supporting services in this SIF framework seems worth proposing, merely that
[02:15] <RichEd> Shall I send an email linking you ?
[02:15] <flint> RichEd, I am quite fond of Tom, and meet with him as regularly as possible.
[02:15] <RichEd> flint: perhaps you could have the broad discussion with him, and be our bridge ?
[02:16] <RichEd> flint and the late joiners see here:https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
[02:16] <flint> RichEd, Have you had a chance to set down with Tom at any of these conferences?
[02:17] <RichEd> we are on the last section under Eric Harrison
[02:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm sorry all, but i need to go sleep time :( good luck with the meeting, i'll try and find out what happened tomorrow :)
[02:17] <RichEd> flint ... IRC and skype is the sum total of my interaction with him to date
[02:17] <RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: thanks for your help :) check he wiki page tomorrow for refinement
[02:17] <RichEd> Right [02:17] <RichEd> My personal items of interest align with the LTSP developer goals:
[02:18] <RichEd> Complete the LTSP work we started in Detroit.
[02:18] <RichEd> Help Ogra with his LTSP management utility
[02:18] <RichEd> Local application support
[02:18] <RichEd> Improved sound support
[02:18] <RichEd> (not me, eric :)
[02:18] <RichEd> I think these are all covered  ???
[02:18] <pips1> what does he mean by  Ogra with his LTSP management utility? is that s-c-p or what?
[02:19] <RichEd> pips1: ltsp-management-gui
[02:19] <pips1> thanks
[02:19] <RichEd> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ltsp-management-gui
[02:20] <RichEd> [02:20] <RichEd> * users-groups management
[02:20] <RichEd>   * creating 50 or more students at a time
[02:20] <RichEd>   *  putting them into groups-classes
[02:20] <RichEd>   * managing passwords
[02:21] <RichEd>  * creating common folders
[02:21] <RichEd>   * sending a file to an entire group
[02:21] <RichEd> --> is this an area of ours, or schooltool ?
[02:21] <RichEd> highvoltage: ?
[02:21] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[02:21] <pips1> well, 
[02:21] <jsgotangco> its something ubuntu can benefit
[02:22] <jsgotangco> its pretty much user management
[02:22] <pips1> there needs to be some kind of interface in-between *ubuntu user/group management and schooltool's
[02:22] <RichEd> I was just thinking that ... ubuntu and a large office network 
[02:22] <flint> RichEd, the line between Schooltool and Edubuntu LTSP is somewhat grey.
[02:22] <highvoltage> yes RichEd?
[02:22] <RichEd> comment on the above ?
[02:23] <highvoltage> I think it's also a case of 'most of the tools already exist' and it just needs to be brought together
[02:23] <pips1> that's what I was talking about earlier: integration of Webapplications (Schooltool, Moodle, .. ) and the Desktop is non-existing
[02:23] <flint> Based upon this I will add a comment that examining the user XML in the SIF could yield profitable result.
[02:24] <willvdl> pips1, how would they integrate anyway?
[02:24] <highvoltage> ubuntu already has users/groups, and a user admin tool, common folders isn't difficult, but a management tool for this would have huge value to the end user teacher
[02:24] <RichEd> well can I suggest that we look at ubuntu group management from one end, and start "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" from the other end, and see where they meet or overlap towards feisty+1
[02:24] <pips1> The most commenly used "bridge" I know of is LDAP directories (OpenLDAP, but also proprietary ones like AD, etc.)
[02:24] <jsgotangco> this just involves a lot of scripts that needs a front end
[02:24] <fernando> ltsp-mangement-gui have a ldap integration?
[02:25] <RichEd> fernando: there is another spec * easy-ldap-server
[02:25] <pips1> I think there is a big muddle around the whole area...
[02:26] <pips1> Lots of specs about that whole area with overlap, but no clear picture
[02:26] <pips1> I'm talking about:
[02:26] <pips1> * edubuntu-network-auth-server / easy-ldap-server
[02:26] <pips1> * edubuntu-network-auth-client / network-authentication
[02:26] <pips1> ?
[02:27] <flint> RichEd, "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" sounds like an excellent place to start!
[02:27] <RichEd> yep ... there is stuff proposed by ogra and also by Ubuntu Directory Services ... I assume these would collapse into one broader topic
[02:28] <pips1> The way ogra is currently thinking about this, afaik, is that Ubuntu Directory Services will implement the Ubuntu-base, and he will work on additional stuff that is needed to make it work with LTSP
[02:28] <RichEd> flint ... you missed the same suggested approach to moddle and LAMs etc. so SchoolTool would be #3 ... "partner applications you may find useful" and then we have a specific forum where we look ate demand and hassle and decide if and when to get closer or "move the relationship upstream"
[02:28] <RichEd> moodle not moddle
[02:28] <pips1> hehe
[02:28] <pips1> moddle
[02:29] <flint> pips1, When I want to piss Tom Hoffman off, I refer to schooltool as "mini-moodle" :^)
[02:29] <RichEd> pips1: ^^ agreed ... because we also add sbalneaves to the picture ... and he may be developing some of this in LTSP 5+1 which will be available to us
[02:30] <highvoltage> sbalneav has lots of ldap foo
[02:30] <pips1> ... continuing from what I said above: But ogra also seems to be determined to find and implement his own entire solution, if it turns out that the Ubuntu Directory Services discussions at UDS MV won't end up with a clear plan and little support from the devs..
[02:31] <flint> RichEd, Keep in mind, the result of the "unofficial guidelines on usage of SchoolTool" might point to AD, LDAP all of which might synch with SIF.
[02:31] <RichEd> Perhaps we need to plan an "integration of topics and requirements session" for LDAP, Directotry, Auth etc. as one of the first meetings on Sunday, and then combine the meeting subscribers into a bigger consolidated session
[02:31] <rodarvus> pips1, nothing beats quality code. if you guys prepare a great project in UDS MV, and implement it in feisty timeframe
[02:31] <rodarvus> there is *nothing* ogra or anyone else can do against it :P
[02:32] <pips1> RichEd: that sounds like a good plan!
[02:32] <RichEd> flint: so noted ... then we get an idea of the real demand ... and that dictates our level of focus
[02:33] <RichEd> pips1: perhaps you and I can work on a spec for this, and register it in our names
[02:33] <pips1> rodarvus note that I'm not a developer! This is just me talking! :-)
[02:33] <RichEd> [02:33] <RichEd> -> The German-french team of Skolelinux/Debian-Edu is working on Cipux users management and a customised version of moodle. 
[02:33] <RichEd> covered above
[02:33] <highvoltage> what is Cipux?
[02:34] <pips1> Cipux is something like s-c-p but with more features implemented already
[02:34] <RichEd> highvoltage: I missed that .. was focusing on the moodle comment ... but thanks pips1 
[02:34] <RichEd> -> Edubuntu should be able to administrate users in a ldap or to connect with an external ldap.
[02:34] <RichEd> covered above
[02:35] <willvdl> can we steal it?
[02:35] <RichEd> -> It should be possible to connect edubuntu from windows clients. it should work as a domain server.
[02:35] <RichEd> covered above
[02:35] <RichEd> -> Niko Lewman: I would love to have Pysycache in edubuntu. With it on edubuntu would be a complete setup for preprimary education.
[02:35] <highvoltage> hmmm... that gives me an idea for another spec...
[02:36] <RichEd> ^^ That would fit into a list of possible applications to bundle ... so no urgency ... will add to the list
[02:36] <pips1> willvdl: ogra has reservations about it.. he as already met and talked with the Cipux dev, afaik, and ogra mentioned that he will discuss it at MV
[02:36] <RichEd> highvoltage: ??
[02:36] <rodarvus> what is pysycache?
[02:36] <highvoltage> we could bundle putty and x-server and make an 'edubuntu-windows-client' so that people can connect to their edubuntu session from a windows machine
[02:36] <highvoltage> a windows based ltsp client, if you will.
[02:36] <RichEd> rodarvus: I'm guessing it is an end user application
[02:36] <rodarvus> never heard about it
[02:37] <rodarvus> pysycache -> "Teach children to play with the mouse !"
[02:37] <willvdl> highvoltage, is that arguable a thin-client though?
[02:37] <rodarvus> a tool like gcompris, it seems
[02:37] <willvdl> or just a remote login/session
[02:37] <rodarvus> http://www.pysycache.org/
[02:37] <RichEd> beat me to it :)
[02:37] <RichEd> PySyCache - and children use the mouse. ... For this, PySyCache offers pleasant activities based on simply objects and a lot of photographies. ...
[02:38] <RichEd> so just an application
[02:38] <RichEd> [02:38] <rodarvus> yeah, should be a no brainer to add it
[02:38] <highvoltage> rodarvus: edubuntugirl says you should look at http://www.pysycache.org/
[02:38] <rodarvus> promoting it to 'main' is another subject, though
[02:39] <pips1> sure thing .. :)
[02:39] <rodarvus> highvoltage, Google told me the same a few seconds ago ;)
[02:39] <RichEd> yep ... same policy as above ... start in the recommended space and let it work it's way towards the bundled space if and when it makes sense
[02:39] <RichEd> #
[02:39] <RichEd> I'd really like to see an "Active Directory Compatibility" package that can be simply installed through Synaptic that depends on all the necessary packages and configures them correctly,
[02:40] <flint> RichEd, I presume that you will get a chance to talk to Tom Hoffman in Mountain View, send him my kindest regards.
[02:40] <rodarvus> it seems PySyCache is meant for childrens even younger than the public of gcompris
[02:40] <RichEd> Simon has an issue where the US school he is at wants to allow only workstations that can authenticate against "native AD".
[02:40] <rodarvus> (and only meant for children to learn how to use the mouse)
[02:40] <RichEd> It looks a bit like a policy to keep Open Source off the network
[02:41] <RichEd> Does anyone here know if you can currently authenticate an Edubuntu w/s against AD without AD knowing you are not MS ?
[02:42] <RichEd> (pips1: I am keepin an eye on the time a big chunk of the remainder is comment and duplicate)
[02:42] <RichEd> no response ... so moving on ...
[02:42] <flint> RichEd, the authentification question can be a trap.
[02:42] <jsgotangco> RichEd: you can't
[02:42] <stelis> RichEd: Winbind isn't distro specific
[02:43] <jsgotangco> RichEd: forgive me you can
[02:43] <stelis> It's just getting the config right 
[02:43] <RichEd> so do we need work or just config instructions ?
[02:43] <stelis> Which is several different files, and a bit arcane
[02:43] <jsgotangco> RichEd: its like how AD distinguishes non-XP clients (NT below)
[02:43] <stelis> Graphical tool + packages
[02:43] <RichEd> stelis: on the AD server, or on the w/s
[02:44] <stelis> The w/s
[02:44] <RichEd> great. will take this one offline.
[02:44] <RichEd> -> The rest of simon is application suggestions ...
[02:44] <RichEd> [02:44] <RichEd> applications
[02:44] <RichEd> [02:45] <RichEd> Sound & video ... config help I think ... no development
[02:45] <pips1> highvoltage: Cipux is not really comparable with any one application, I think... It a big application that does lots of things in the network admin realm... sort of a webmin-plus-schooltool-plus-s-c-p ? dunno 
[02:45] <RichEd> Then a whole lot of single sign on, which Oliver feels is under control
[02:46] <pips1> highvoltage: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/CipUX
[02:46] <flint> RichEd, David is sorta rooting for Samba/LDAP eh?
[02:46] <stelis> The risk is that different methods use different LDAP fields
[02:46] <stelis> So things can be incompatible
[02:47] <pips1> flint: yep, we went throught all that already
[02:47] <RichEd> that will be a sub-discussion in the topic ... the meeting requirement is in place
[02:47] <RichEd> ??
[02:47] <highvoltage> pips1: thanks
[02:47] <flint> stelis, "different methods use different LDAP fields" could be fixed with a SIF compliance...
[02:47] <pips1> flint: stop distracting RichEd :)
[02:47] <flint> pips1, np
[02:48] <stelis> flint: I'll Google a little on that
[02:48] <RichEd> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/CipUX <- this could fall under "partenrship to cultivate" suggested already by Nicalas
[02:48] <stelis> and add a note to the spec
[02:49] <RichEd> okay ... that's the main chunks ... once I have revised the wiki page, you are free to make comments on that page
[02:50] <RichEd> Let me have control of the page for tomorrow ... and on Friday, I am on airplanes for 23 hours, so you guys can edit then, in time for rodarvus pips ogra and I to review in the US before the meeetings
[02:50] <rodarvus> right
[02:50] <RichEd> sorrt that is not clear: on friday, you guys can have the page
[02:50] <rodarvus> I'll be on airplanes for 24 hours on friday too
[02:50] <rodarvus> (starting 22:00 UTC)
[02:50] <rodarvus> but I'll be working all day, before that
[02:50] <RichEd> [02:51] <RichEd> Remote Participation
[02:51] <RichEd> -> What facilities are requested / suggested ?
[02:51] <RichEd> what suggestions do you guys have ?
[02:51] <jsgotangco> for the summit?
[02:51] <RichEd> should we make a temporary channel ?
[02:51] <jsgotangco> just use skype, its painless
[02:51] <RichEd> Yep.
[02:52] <jsgotangco> who cares for now if its non-free it works
[02:52] <flint> RichEd, they tried to use teamspeak at one of the conferences, it did not happen...
[02:52] <RichEd> something like #edubuntu-uds which is not announced ... so no user support ... just conference copics ?
[02:52] <RichEd> *topics
[02:53] <RichEd> jsgotangco: do you mean a skype voice conference where you can join & listen ?
[02:53] <willvdl> with an agenda/time-log posted somewhere
[02:53] <RichEd> highvoltage: you should be commeting on this topic ... you asked for it !
[02:54] <jsgotangco> well sure i thought you had some people who are suppposed to participate but not able to physically
[02:54] <flint> RichEd, strangely enough, the net & AV support at the conferences is sporatic at best.  Be mindful of this in planning linkups.
[02:55] <highvoltage> sorry, been distracted here
[02:55] <rodarvus> just to let you guys know - its not entirely practical for us attending UDS to hang on irc channels, most of the time
[02:55] <rodarvus> because we change rooms a lot
[02:55] <rodarvus> and we don't always have connectivity
[02:55] <RichEd> flint: that is why I was suggesting an IRC low bandwidth requirement ... skype may break the feed
[02:56] <highvoltage> RichEd: I was told before that canonical has been organising infrastructure to allow external communication, and that members will be informed before the summit
[02:56] <RichEd> rodarvus: any and all suggestions will be "best effort" ... no guarantees unless the body is in the room.
[02:56] <pips1> I wonder what facilities will actually happen to be in place and working ... after all, it is google headquarters. wooohoo! ;-) 
[02:56] <flint> RichEd, good, you see the point.  at this time keep expectations low.
[02:56] <jsgotangco> even the greatest companies have their weaknesses
[02:57] <pips1> oh yeah
[02:57] <rodarvus> RichEd, sure, taking this in consideration (maybe even having it on the topic of the channel :) ) I totally agree with the idea.
[02:57] <RichEd> well, let me wrap with this suggestion: if you want to be notified ... add your name and email address to:
[02:57] <RichEd> Who would like to participate in UDS discussions ?
[02:57] <jsgotangco> considering timezones? i doubt i can/will
[02:57] <RichEd> on: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
[02:58] <RichEd> if you want to check in with one of us, look out for: #edubuntu-uds
[02:58] <rodarvus> one improvement we could do over UDS Paris is to "announce" result of the BoF meetings, after they are done
[02:58] <stelis> I'd like to sit on the auth discussions if that's possible
[02:58] <rodarvus> I've seen this happening in Gnome's Boston event, last month
[02:58] <RichEd> which may or may not be up, and which may or may not be populated
[02:58] <rodarvus> its nice for those that are interested on the subject, but were not able to assist the meetings
[02:58] <flint> RichEd, I will do what I can to monitor https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UdsMtvEdubuntu
[03:00] <RichEd> stelis: we may end up with the practical situation that we post meeting summaries at best ... this should however allow you guys to raise comments where you see a potential train smash, and we can then arrange to raise concerns (if possible)
[03:01] <RichEd> ~~ bong ~~ end of meeting bell ... things to do ...
[03:01] <stelis> RichEd: OK. Hopefully the directory-services and edubuntu guys will be able to hash things out in person
[03:01] <RichEd> any final issues from the floor ??
[03:01] <jsgotangco> see you all and thanks for all the fish
[03:01] <willvdl> good luck at UDS
[03:02] <jsgotangco> i might be online, i might be not
[03:02] <jsgotangco> but ill take time to visit
[03:02] <RichEd> stelis: sure ... but I am sure that some of you may have inspired moments ... so we will try to make a space for you to raise them before the concrete droes
[03:02] <RichEd> *dries
[03:02] <pips1> stelis: maybe the ubuntu-directory irc channel will be used during MV, I don't know
[03:02] <rodarvus> RichEd, do you want to register the irc channel now?
[03:02] <rodarvus> announce it to edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users, etc
[03:02] <stelis> pips1: Good point
[03:02] <RichEd> rodarvus: that may raise expectations too high
[03:03] <RichEd> perhaps when the wiki page is neat, we can announce that on the list ... and we can have a not about the channel on the page
[03:03] <RichEd> *note
[03:03] <flint> Good luck to all at UDS in MV!
[03:04] <RichEd> then it means only the serious / committed people who read to the bottom of the page will get involved, and not just the casual rabble rouser ?
[03:04] <RichEd> going once ... 
[03:04] <RichEd> going twice ... 
[03:05] <flint> The casual rabble rouser is buzy with his new house.
[03:05] <flint> RichEd, have fun.
[03:05] <flint> ...and regards to Jane.
[03:05] <RichEd> flint: i would see you as a professional, not casual :)
[03:05] <RichEd> thanks all ...
[03:05] <RichEd> will say Hi to Jane from Flint
[03:05] <flint> RichEd, thanks in return....
[03:06] <pips1> thanks, good meeting
[03:06] <flint> pips1, indeed one of the best I have gottne to.
[03:06] <flint> gottne gotten.  sksk
[03:06] <pygi> sorry for jumping in
[03:14] <highvoltage> sorry, lost my connection home toward the end of the meeting
[03:15] <RichEd> no problem ... final agreement was ... if you want to be kept up to date with remote facilities, add your name to the bottom of the wiki page
[03:15] <RichEd> we will add an IRC channel to that page
[03:16] <RichEd> and we will mail that page to the devel and user groups
[08:03] <Riddell> hi sebas, seele
[08:03] <Riddell> hi pinheiro 
[08:03] <sebas> Hi Riddell, seele, pinheiro 
[08:03] <sebas> First off, I've got the flight confirmation, Riddell 
[08:03] <sebas> Don't we love spamfilters?
[08:03] <pinheiro> hi guys
[08:04] <Riddell> sebas: phew
[08:04] <Riddell> pinheiro, seele: your flights booked ok?
[08:04] <pinheiro> gess so
[08:04] <Riddell> pinheiro: only guess?
[08:05] <Riddell> imbrandon: around?
[08:05] <pinheiro> well i dint do much and it the frist time i do this 
[08:05] <Riddell> pinheiro: but you confirmed them with the travel agent?
[08:05] <pinheiro> yea
[08:05] <pinheiro> dionne
[08:06] <sebas> You should've gotten a confirmation number, do  you have that?
[08:06] <pinheiro> i have a reservation number it it the same?
[08:07] <sebas> Yes
[08:07] <Riddell> I have a reservation number, so that had better be it :)
[08:07] <pinheiro> ok 
[08:07] <pinheiro> :P
[08:07] <sebas> pinheiro: Did they tell you that you won't be able to enter the country without a bottle of vintage for sebas?
[08:07] <sebas> You know, US customs are bitches
[08:07] <pinheiro> hahahahahahaaa
[08:08] <pinheiro> so i heard
[08:08] <Riddell> do make sure you take the address of the hotel with you
[08:08] <Riddell> Wild Palms Hotel
[08:08] <Riddell> http://www.jdvhospitality.com/hotels/hotel/20
[08:08] <Riddell> so, quiet meeting I guess, anyone heard from John Tapsell or Josef Spillner?
[08:08] <pinheiro> heeee nop
[08:09] <pinheiro> been here for a while
[08:09] <seele> i am afk for about five more minutes -- phone meeting
[08:09] <seele> Riddell: yes, my flight is booked
[08:10] <Riddell> seele: great
[08:10] <Riddell> so first thing I was going to say is you need a launchpad account and to register yourself as being at the meeting
[08:10] <Riddell> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend
[08:10] <pinheiro> did that
[08:11] <Riddell> groovy
[08:11] <imbrandon> pong
[08:11] <imbrandon> sorry a bit late
[08:11] <Riddell> hi imbrandon, you all sorted for travel?
[08:12] <imbrandon> yup, infact i was preping for it now
[08:12] <imbrandon> is why i was late :)
[08:12] <imbrandon> bags ready , tickets gotten, hotel hookedup 
[08:13] <seele> ok back
[08:13] <Riddell> so next thing is the meeting format
[08:13] <Riddell> which is based around discussing and writing specifications
[08:13] <Riddell> the ones registered so far are at https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
[08:13] <Riddell> you should take a look at the ones that interest you and subscribe to them
[08:14] <Riddell> and if you think we should be discussing something that isn't there make a spec and let me know
[08:14] <imbrandon> i made one to discuss koffice ( but its approved already )
[08:14] <Riddell> imbrandon: mmmm, yes
[08:14] <imbrandon> i think thats the only one i havent mentioned
[08:15] <Riddell> hi kwwii 
[08:15] <Riddell> kwwii: travel all booked?
[08:15] <kwwii> owdy Riddell, sorry I am late
[08:15] <imbrandon> i do have one small question though before we get too started if i may , whom is John Tapsell
[08:15] <kwwii> Riddell: yes
[08:15] <imbrandon> hehe
[08:15] <Riddell> kwwii: registered at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend ?
[08:16] <Riddell> imbrandon: he's a KDE developer, maintains ksysguard among other things
[08:16] <imbrandon> ahh ok
[08:16] <kwwii> Riddell: yepp
[08:16] <imbrandon> just wondering as he seems to be my roomie
[08:16] <imbrandon> anyhow do we have a adept spec ?
[08:16] <imbrandon> err package manager spec
[08:16] <Riddell> kwwii: browsed at the specs? https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
[08:17] <Riddell> imbrandon: kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes
[08:17] <Riddell> imbrandon: kubuntu-update-manager
[08:17] <imbrandon> rockin, we really need to cover that one
[08:17] <kwwii> Riddell: not yeet...I was thinking about adding some art specs
[08:17] <Riddell> kwwii: yep, good idea
[08:18] <Riddell> although speccing art is always a bit beurocratic
[08:18] <jjesse> can i interupt and ask if gobby will be used like it was in paris or will something better be used?
[08:18] <imbrandon> maybe just a general one to get the direction of the feisty art
[08:18] <sebas> I'm afraid there is nothing better (and free) yet
[08:18] <kwwii> imbrandon: that is the thing, we had something like that last time (like "artwork for edgy should be on time")
[08:19] <jjesse> thanks seele
[08:19] <jjesse> doh sorry thanks sebas
[08:19] <dholbach> here
[08:19] <kwwii> not sure if it would not be better to add a bit more info this time around, or try to improve the processes we started for edgy
[08:19] <Riddell> dholbach: you were talking about art specs in e-mail, anything come of that?
[08:19] <imbrandon> right
[08:19] <dholbach> Riddell: no, there's no artwork specs in LP for uds-mtv yet
[08:20] <imbrandon> i think the kubuntu processes went alot smoother than the ubuntu way, so if we could iron that out
[08:20] <kwwii> I was CC'ed in a mail today about that
[08:20] <dholbach> hey sebas
[08:20] <sebas> hey there!
[08:20] <kwwii> imbrandon: yeah, but we are not on the community art level that ubuntu is
[08:20] <kwwii> imbrandon: if we want everyone to attend we need to give them the right info so that things don't get all messed up again and again
[08:20] <kwwii> s/attend/contribute
[08:21] <Riddell> kwwii: so I'd say registed kubuntu-feisty-artwork, subscribe pinheiro and yourself
[08:21] <imbrandon> kwwii, i would like to see a spec on how i can make art.kubuntu.org help in the feisty process smoothly
[08:21] <imbrandon> that might help moreso than the wiki this time
[08:21] <kwwii> imbrandon: I think that we need to know in advance where different kinds of work will be done
[08:22] <kwwii> the wiki, art.ubuntu.com, mailing list, etc.
[08:22] <pinheiro> be back in a sec dinner time
[08:22] <seele> i am unfamiliar with some of specifications, if anyone knows where i should be subscribed, can you drop me a note
[08:22] <kwwii> it is still not totally clear, and once art.ubuntu.com gets up and running it might get confusing
[08:23] <Riddell> seele: are you registered to attend the meeting on launchpad?  https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend
[08:23] <imbrandon> its been up and running a week or more now, there are over 100 accounts
[08:23] <imbrandon> kwwii, ^
[08:23] <seele> Riddell: yeah, for some reason it says seele instead of celeste
[08:23] <Riddell> seele: then click the spec name link at https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs and "Subscribe yourself" at the side
[08:24] <Riddell> seele: launchpad has "seele" as your real name and "celeste" as your short nickname
[08:24] <Riddell> seele: which is fine with me
[08:24] <seele> Riddell: my point was i dont know enough about some of these to know where i can help
[08:25] <seele> Riddell: eg: what is HWDB, that is the only one with "usability" in it
[08:25] <imbrandon> the hardware database front end
[08:25] <imbrandon> iirc
[08:25] <Riddell> seele: anything with a UI would be where we need you...
[08:25] <sebas> seele: That's no problem, you usability guys are versatile enough to be of use in most of the meetings :>
[08:26] <sebas> Just choose the ones that sound interesting to you, you'll get dragged in everywhere anyway :>
[08:26] <seele> lol
[08:26] <imbrandon> :)
[08:26] <Riddell> seele: kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity,    kubuntu-update-manager, driver-device-manager, kubuntu-feisty-language-selector, kubuntu-samba-integration, kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes, kubuntu-feisty-system-settings  all likely candidates
[08:26] <seele> Riddell: ok, thanks
[08:27] <imbrandon> seems we will have a good kde showout this round
[08:27] <sebas> Riddell: Kubuntu driver device manager ... is that something from a certain "Vijay Kiran Kamuju"?
[08:27] <sebas> I've seen his name come along in the guidance "i wanna help" mail 
[08:28] <Riddell> sebas: no, it's the KDE version of https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/driver-device-manager
[08:28] <sebas> Or does anyone know?
[08:28] <sebas> Riddell: So there's somebody who wants to work on this.
[08:28] <imbrandon> please tell me some of you will chime in on the beryl-by-default spec too , its not near ready 
[08:29] <Riddell> sebas: not as far as I know, but if one gets made for gnome then we'll want one in KDE.  
[08:29] <sebas> beryl by default would be a *very* bad idea.
[08:29] <imbrandon> Riddell, we can stay with kwin for now if ubuntu does that correct ?
[08:29] <sebas> Especially for KDE.
[08:29] <Riddell> sebas: that kubuntu spec is marked as depends on driver-device-manager, so it can be ignored unless driver-device-manager gets anywhere
[08:29] <imbrandon> sebas, yea its a good idea, just not /yet/
[08:29] <sebas> Riddell: I'll email you about that later.
[08:30] <sebas> Well, what we want is that stuff in kwin (seli!)
[08:30] <Riddell> imbrandon: yes, we'd stay with kwin and hope kwin has enough bling in kde 4
[08:30] <sebas> beryl just doesn't integrate with KDE at all.
[08:30] <imbrandon> Riddell, rockin
[08:30] <pinheiro> back
[08:30] <imbrandon> sebas, yea they released some kde stuff for it yesterday in svn but its very very new and isnt good for default
[08:30] <imbrandon> kde4 should be our answer
[08:30] <sebas> Ah, hm, maybe I should check that out.
[08:31] <sebas> Absolutely.
[08:31] <Riddell> pinheiro: poke kwwii to register a spec and make sure you're subscribed
[08:31] <sebas> I wouldn't want something as rockstable as 3.5 to be fscked up by eyecandystuff like beryl.
[08:31] <kwwii> pinheiro: do you have a launchpad account?
[08:31] <pinheiro> yea
[08:31] <imbrandon> sebas, +1
[08:32] <pinheiro> my name is nuno
[08:32] <imbrandon> plus it messes with all the key binding s and other stuff some take for granted
[08:32] <kwwii> pinheiro: cool, later I'll add a spec and we can talk about it :-)
[08:32] <pinheiro> cool
[08:32] <imbrandon> and dosent handle dual head monitors etc
[08:32] <pinheiro> one thing i would like to ask,  is if there are some computr available so in the meeting so i can do some work?
[08:33] <Riddell> pinheiro: hmm, no, you don't have a laptop?
[08:33] <imbrandon> i'll be brining a laptop, as will most , not sure if there are general use computers
[08:33] <sebas> imbrandon: Well, it does handle dualscreen :>
[08:33] <imbrandon> sebas, yea but not well
[08:33] <imbrandon> :)
[08:33] <pinheiro> heeeeeeee mine is a bit completly broken
[08:33] <sebas> What problems are you refering to?
[08:33] <sebas> http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=633 
[08:34] <Riddell> anyone have a laptop they can lend pinheiro for the week?
[08:34] <imbrandon> sebas, window screen resitance and max windows accross screens
[08:34] <Riddell> I wonder if I can blag one off my brother
[08:34] <sebas> imbrandon: Aight, that's mostly working fine.
[08:34] <imbrandon> i only have one , well i have a 133 pentium but i dont think it would be worth loading
[08:35] <pinheiro> i will try to find one
[08:36] <Riddell> any other questions?
[08:36] <imbrandon> is there a schedule for the first day yet ?
[08:36] <sebas> When does everybody return?
[08:37] <Riddell> imbrandon: no, they're usually made on the morning of the day by the automated BoFicator
[08:37] <imbrandon> i'll be there till saturday
[08:37] <kwwii> I am leaving friday afternoon
[08:37] <imbrandon> right
[08:37] <Riddell> imbrandon: last time the automated BoFicator didn't take into account that we need KDE/Kubuntu stuff scheduled each day, so we just made up our timetable for much of the time
[08:37] <sebas> I missed the party in Paris, no way that happens again :>
[08:38] <imbrandon> Riddell, ahh ok
[08:38] <Riddell> sebas: I'm saying in SF for another week at the top secret Canonical meeting
[08:38] <seele> lol
[08:38] <sebas> That 'we make our own timetable' worked quite well IMO, the group wasn't big enough to need a boficator
[08:38] <imbrandon> hahah thats the 3rd person that called it top secret but announced it 
[08:38] <imbrandon> :)
[08:38] <nixternal> haha
[08:38] <sebas> Riddell: When's that exactly?
[08:38] <sebas> Maybe we can grab a beer or twenty somewhere
[08:39] <Riddell> sebas: the following sunday to saturday
[08:39] <sebas> Aye, also in mtv?
[08:39] <Riddell> so saturday is a free day 
[08:39] <Riddell> sebas: no, in San Francisco somewhere
[08:39] <sebas> Ah, cool.
[08:39] <nixternal> i appologize for feeding the troll in #kubuntu-devel
[08:39] <sebas> How will we get from SF airport to mtv?
[08:40] <Riddell> sebas: with the excellent US public trasport system known as the private taxi
[08:40] <kwwii> I am thinking about renting a car, in case anyone is arrinving midday on saturday they could catch a lift
[08:40] <Riddell> sebas: costs about $40-50
[08:40] <Riddell> sebas: http://www.supershuttle.com/
[08:40] <nixternal> you would be better off getting a few of your together and taking a limo, it will be cheaper
[08:40] <sebas> kwwii: I will arrive somewhen then
[08:40] <nixternal> super shuttle is a rip off btw, they have that crap here in chicago as well
[08:40] <imbrandon> kwwii, i'll get there about 1030am :)
[08:41] <sebas> No way my cellphone works there
[08:41] <seele> doesnt a cap only cost 30-40$?
[08:41] <seele> *cab
[08:41] <Riddell> I arrive 16:35 on BA287
[08:41] <imbrandon> thats what i was thinking
[08:41] <Riddell> sebas: mobile phones, that's something I havn't thought about
[08:42] <Riddell> so arrive with dollars for taxi and change for phones
[08:42] <seele> Riddell: do you have a gsm phone?
[08:42] <Riddell> seele: yes
[08:42] <seele> shouldnt it work?
[08:42] <kwwii> hehe, my phone will work, so anyone who wants a ride around 14:00, call me :-)
[08:42] <imbrandon> gsm phones should work
[08:42] <Riddell> does the US have GSM now?
[08:42] <seele> lol
[08:42] <sebas> Yeah, but the wrong kind
[08:43] <imbrandon> yea but i dont know if its compatible
[08:43] <imbrandon> but sprint is gsm
[08:43] <seele> it should work, Jan's phone works when he is here
[08:43] <sebas> Isn't that the 1900mhz thing which europeans don't have?
[08:43] <kwwii> sebas: good idea, smoke signals might be misinterpreted
[08:43] <kwwii> if your phone is at least a tri-band, it will work
[08:43] <sebas> kwwii: Well, try to bring a lighter on the plane ... 
[08:43] <kwwii> of course, you need international roaming too
[08:43] <Riddell> I might try and borrow a triband phone off someone
[08:44] <imbrandon> kwwii, shoot me your number , i should be there arround then
[08:44] <sebas> Who else knows arrival time and flight number already?
[08:44] <nixternal> if you have GSM enabled phone, you will be fine
[08:44] <nixternal> or you should be fine rather
[08:44] <imbrandon> sebas, i have mine already
[08:44] <sebas> imbrandon: tell us then :>
[08:44] <imbrandon> 1030am 
[08:44] <imbrandon> is when i arrive
[08:45] <kwwii> imbrandon, and anyone else: +49 176 239 136 09
[08:45] <imbrandon> sebas, elkbuntu gets there at the same time, we were gonna try to share a cab or something
[08:46] <pinheiro> anyone arrives friday arround 2100
[08:46] <sebas> Do you usually need the pincode of your creditcard to pay something in the US?
[08:46] <kwwii> sebas: nope
[08:46] <imbrandon> sebas, no
[08:46] <sebas> Gooood.
[08:46] <seele> UA951 20:13 from IAD
[08:47] <sebas> DaSkreech: Well, he said he wants it to be so
[08:47] <sebas> seele: What's IAD?
[08:47] <imbrandon> F9  653   04NOV DENVER/SAN FRANCISCO  0830   1010
[08:47] <seele> dulles international, one of three DC airports
[08:47] <sebas> Aye, thanks
[08:49] <Riddell> reminds me, must bring Irn Bru to enlighten another country
[08:49] <imbrandon> heh
[08:49] <sebas> bottles on a plane are OK?
[08:50] <Riddell> best avoided I think
[08:50] <kwwii> nope
[08:50] <kwwii> no liquids
[08:50] <Riddell> infact I don't even know about laptops UK->US
[08:50] <imbrandon> i doubt it, unless its in checked luggage
[08:50] <sebas> How do you carry the booze then?
[08:50] <imbrandon> no liquids
[08:50] <kwwii> empty bottles, perhaps
[08:50] <sebas> That's kinda pointless
[08:50] <kwwii> :p
[08:50] <imbrandon> not even toothpaste in carry on *rolls eyes*
[08:50] <imbrandon> NO liquids
[08:50] <imbrandon> all has to be in checked luggage
[08:51] <kwwii> so here is a question: for edgy we had the ubuntu and kubuntu art specs together...perhaps we should split them up?
[08:51] <sebas> And don't forget to uninstall libdvdcss everybody!
[08:51] <nixternal> imbrandon: so make sure you pee before you leave, otherwise they will arrest you for "terroristic loaded bladder"
[08:51] <imbrandon> kwwii, i say seperate, as they are pretty diffrent animals
[08:51] <kwwii> imbrandon: yeah, and the actual status of them is always different anyway
[08:52] <imbrandon> yea
[08:52] <Riddell> kwwii: they were the same specs?  I'd definately say separate them
[08:52] <kwwii> ok, so I am going to make about 5 specs for kubuntu-art
[08:52] <pinheiro> 5 ? so many?
[08:53] <imbrandon> lemme know what they are , so i can subscribe to some of thtem
[08:53] <Riddell> pinheiro: don't complain, it gives you more karma if you're subscribed to more specs :)
[08:53] <kwwii> 1) boot art (grub and usplash, 2) login and splash, 3) desktop wallpaper, 4) website and release pic, 5) help and start pages
[08:53] <Riddell> Lure!
[08:53] <pinheiro> hahahaha
[08:53] <nixternal> hehe
[08:53] <kwwii> 3) desktop wallpaper and other elements
[08:53] <Riddell> Lure: you're in the US already yes?  and travel all sorted?
[08:54] <Lure> yes, I am in Orlando
[08:54] <Lure> flying to SFO on Sat
[08:54] <kwwii> 6) CD artwork
[08:55] <pinheiro> 5 turns out into a 6
[08:55] <pinheiro> :P
[08:55] <Riddell> Lure: registered your attendance at https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv/+attend ?
[08:55] <Lure> Riddell: yes
[08:55] <kwwii> 7) oxygen icons for kde4 :p
[08:55] <pinheiro> that one i like
[08:55] <pinheiro> :P
[08:56] <DaSkreech> I like my Oxygen
[08:56] <Riddell> Lure: and finally, browsed the specs and subscribed to any you're interested in?  https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs
[08:56] <DaSkreech> It's a precusor to being able to Tango :)
[08:56] <Lure> Riddell: need to do another round as some were added recently
[08:56] <Riddell> Lure: sounds like you're all sorted then
[08:57] <sebas> siretart: Yeah, that one
[08:57] <DaSkreech> Why are people so nutty about kubu?
[08:57] <Riddell> sivang: a top secret meeting of KDE/Kubuntu mountain view preparation
[08:57] <sivang> Riddell: ah, yeah, so it seems :)
[08:57] <imbrandon> sivang, yea what Riddell said, dont tell anyone or you'll get roped into doing something
[08:57] <sivang> Riddell: shame I can't join the fun as I won't be attending :)
[08:57] <sivang> imbrandon: ^^
[08:57] <sivang> :-/
[08:58] <imbrandon> ahh
[08:58] <sivang> I would love to be voulenteerd to do something
[08:58] <Lure> sivang: you can do it from home ;-)
[08:58] <imbrandon> Riddell, so how many KDE/Kubuntu types are attending this round ?
[08:58] <sivang> gotta go, Lure : we'll see :)
[08:58] <imbrandon> more than paris ?
[08:58] <Riddell> imbrandon: 3 Kubuntu, 5 KDE, same as paris
[08:58] <imbrandon> ahh
[08:58] <Riddell> assuming John Flux and Josef S turn up
[08:58] <Riddell> I'll try and phone them
[08:59] <imbrandon> see we should be KDE/Kubuntu not GNU/Linux ( sarcasim )
[08:59] <imbrandon> heh
[09:00] <kwwii> kinda wierd saying that nuno is coming as a kde person...it should probably be internal as it deals with distribution specific graphics...but I'll shut up
[09:01] <imbrandon> Riddell, ahh did i tell you i dot intouch with the new debian amarok maintainer and i'll probably be made co-maintaier on it , and I filed a ITP for libmtp and its in NEW in debian
[09:01] <imbrandon> s/dot/got
[09:01] <Riddell> imbrandon: excellent
[09:01] <imbrandon> the current 1.4.4 in debian mirrors ours
[09:01] <Riddell> I think this meeting is about done, any questions?
[09:01] <imbrandon> he got it from kubuntu.org
[09:01] <nixternal> which way to the pub?
[09:02] <Riddell> oh, remember to bring headphone/microphone headsets if you have them
[09:02] <imbrandon> i have them i can bring for someone to use, but my laptop has no mic jack
[09:02] <sebas> For teamspeak?
[09:02] <imbrandon> so i'll have an extra set for someone if they forget/dont have thtem
[09:03] <Riddell> sebas: we're being brave and using SIP this time
[09:03] <Riddell> which will probably work even worse than teamspeak
[09:03] <imbrandon> heh
[09:04] <nixternal> haha
[09:04] <Riddell> ok, see you all on Saturday for an early start on Sunday (last bus to google at 08:30 as a remember, so anyone late is in trouble)
[09:04] <imbrandon> :)
[09:04] <highvoltage> Riddell: enjoy!
[09:04] <imbrandon> see yall there
[09:05] <Lure> see you
[09:05] <highvoltage> imbrandon: I won't make it this time, but will see you at the one after :)
[09:05] <sebas> Riddell: Ah, cool.
[09:05] <sebas> The problem is not the technology, btw.
[09:06] <sebas> The problem is that meetings where 3/4 is physically there and the rest connected with non-pro equipment just don't work well.
[09:07] <Riddell> sebas: yep
[09:09] <sebas> So we're done?
[09:09] <highvoltage> sebas: the other problem is that we don't quite know how we'll be connecting, do we?
[09:10] <kwwii> and it does not work on ppc
[09:10] <sebas> highvoltage: What do you mean by connecting then?
[09:10] <sebas> I suppose you can call in somewhere, like a conference call
[09:11] <highvoltage> sebas: yes, that is what earlier announcements said, but will it be ediga? teamspeak? we don't know yet. I'd like to set up before the time and test on my connection.
[09:11] <highvoltage> but there's been little details so far.
[09:11] <Riddell> kwwii: twinkle should
[09:11] <Riddell> highvoltage: SIP (twinkle/ekeiga)
[09:12] <kwwii> Riddell: twinkle? guess I'll look into that when I get there :-)
[09:13] <kwwii> having so many devs around with ppc's should make it easier :p
[09:22] <kwwii> Riddell: one last question: do specs normally roll-over from one release to another?
[09:23] <sebas> Cheers everyone!
[09:23] <kwwii> bye sebas
[09:24] <highvoltage> Riddell: ah, cool. thanks.
[09:25] <Riddell> kwwii: you need to re-register them for the summit
[09:27] <kwwii> Riddell: the thing is this...for edgy we had several specs for artwork, with both ubuntu and kubuntu in one spec. wondering how to go about seperating them
[09:28] <Riddell> kwwii: just make new ones, call them kubuntu-feisty-artwork-boot etc
[09:28] <kwwii> I guess I should just add new ones for kubuntu-feisty-artwork-* and let them do the work when they change theirs
[09:28] <kwwii> yeah
[09:29] <Riddell> kwwii: it's not even clear what ubuntu artists are coming yet
[09:29] <kwwii> wow
[09:30] <kwwii> I thought mark might invite trae to come, since he sent an email saying he was interested
[09:30] <kwwii> trae sent an email, I mean
[09:30] <kwwii> but anyway...
[09:30] <kwwii> thanks for the info
[09:30] <kwwii> I will start making wiki pages and specs
[09:32] <kwwii> btw. I will also update the "standard official" kubuntu logo on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuArtwork soon
[09:32] <kwwii> Jane sent me colors a long time ago...guess we should update that too (just saw it when I stumbled through the wiki)