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| jiger | hello how can I check if I am booting via upstart or no? | 02:57 |
|---|---|---|
| cortana | jiger: check /proc/1/exe ? | 02:57 |
| jiger | there is no /proc/1/exe | 02:58 |
| jiger | top shows 1 as init | 02:59 |
| cortana | then you're not using linux... perhaps you don't have permission to read it, i seem to only be able to read it if i am root | 02:59 |
| jiger | ohhh wait only works with sudo. hmmmm but ls shows nothing | 03:00 |
| jiger | wonder why booting kubuntu takes so long | 03:00 |
| jiger | cortana: and why is process 1 init? | 03:01 |
| cortana | well it's a symlink to a processes' executable file | 03:02 |
| cortana | it guess it depends how you have upstart installed | 03:02 |
| cortana | maybe it has replaced the /sbin/init file | 03:02 |
| jiger | cortana: but isn't upstart executable called upstart? | 03:04 |
| cortana | depends how you have it installed | 03:05 |
| jiger | cortana: any definitive way to check> | 03:05 |
| cortana | i don't even have it installed here :) | 03:05 |
| cortana | ask your package manager what owns the file? | 03:05 |
| jiger | cortana: I did a dapper to edgy | 03:05 |
| jiger | cortana: u ain't running ubuntu? | 03:05 |
| jiger | cortana: command? | 03:05 |
| cortana | dpkg --search i think | 03:06 |
| jiger | upstart-compat-sysv: /usr/share/doc/upstart-compat-sysv | 03:07 |
| jiger | system-services: /usr/lib/upstart/migrate-inittab.pl | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart-logd: /usr/share/doc/upstart-logd | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/copyright | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/changelog.gz | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/NEWS.gz | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/AUTHORS | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/changelog.Debian.gz | 03:07 |
| jiger | system-services: /usr/lib/upstart | 03:07 |
| jiger | upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/README.Debian.gz | 03:07 |
| jiger | strikes anything? | 03:07 |
| cortana | it's dpkg --search /sbin/init | 03:08 |
| cortana | to find out what package owns /sbin/init | 03:08 |
| jiger | upstart: /sbin/init | 03:09 |
| jiger | good? ontrack? | 03:09 |
| cortana | then it seems you are using upstart | 03:09 |
| jiger | cortana: then wonder why it is so slow to boot | 03:09 |
| cortana | afaik upstart doesn't make anything aster | 03:10 |
| cortana | *faster | 03:10 |
| jiger | cortana: slightly slower than dapper | 03:10 |
| cortana | but i can't really say since i don't use it | 03:10 |
| jiger | cortana: doesn't it load possible services in parellel ? | 03:10 |
| jiger | cortana: might not be immen. but in future aim? | 03:10 |
| cortana | maybe, but if those services are both competing for the same resource then they won't load any quicker | 03:11 |
| jiger | cortana: hmmm hope next ubuntu makes it fast. | 03:11 |
| jiger | cortana: thanks for the help | 03:11 |
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| madduck | Keybuk: http://www.metager2.de/ -- Michael Biebl is now the maintainer for Debian and I suggest you link to http://packages.debian.org/upstart instead as the package won't be experimental forever. | 06:27 |
| Keybuk | thanks | 06:27 |
| madduck | oops | 06:27 |
| madduck | http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ | 06:27 |
| madduck | i mean. | 06:27 |
| madduck | you can keep me in if youw ant, i am comaintainer... | 06:27 |
| madduck | (though i have not done much) | 06:27 |
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| Keybuk | *nods* | 06:28 |
| AlexExtreme | Keybuk: you busy atm with uds-mtv or can I ask a quick question? | 06:30 |
| AlexExtreme | oh, nvm, just got some of your emails on the mailing list - my mail server is a bit laggy today | 06:32 |
| Keybuk | AlexExtreme: you can always ask questions :) | 06:38 |
| Keybuk | I just may not reply instantly | 06:38 |
| AlexExtreme | ok :) | 06:38 |
| Keybuk | what was your question? | 06:39 |
| AlexExtreme | well, just a quick (and stupid - /me points at crazy (another frugalware devel) ;)) question - will hal ever be needed by upstart? | 06:39 |
| Keybuk | I suspect HAL will become an important source of events | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | as unlike udev, it has policy | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | udev can give you a "a block device has been added" | 06:40 |
| AlexExtreme | but not actually *required*, meaning you could run upstart without it? | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | HAL can give you "a block device ON A DIGITAL CAMERA has been added" | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | right | 06:40 |
| AlexExtreme | good | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | very little of upstart will be required | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | just the /sbin/init daemon and some IPC mechanism to send events to it | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | other than that, everything else will be optional | 06:41 |
| AlexExtreme | k | 06:41 |
| AlexExtreme | crazy: there, got your question answered | 06:41 |
| AlexExtreme | :) | 06:41 |
| Keybuk | hmm? | 06:41 |
| AlexExtreme | crazy wanted me to ask that | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | ahh | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | on the dbus thing | 06:43 |
| Keybuk | I'm still debating the custom IPC vs. dbus thing | 06:43 |
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| AlexExtreme | ok | 06:44 |
| AlexExtreme | bbl, food | 06:44 |
| mbiebl | Keybuk: did you advise Md to reassign the udev problem in Debian to upstart-compat-sysv? | 06:44 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl: yes | 06:45 |
| Keybuk | both the problems are definitely upstart | 06:45 |
| Keybuk | in Debian, I'd argue that you need "console owner" in the compat-sysv jobs; simply because Debian doesn't have a "no boot messages" policy, so init scripts are well within their rights to expect stdin=/dev/console | 06:45 |
| Keybuk | also there's definitely a bug that the rcS job doesn't set RUNLEVEL or PREVLEVEL (note that rc-everything-else does :p) | 06:46 |
| mbiebl | Sure, we don't have that policy, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to have everything logged to file instead to stdout | 06:46 |
| Keybuk | right, but it's also inherently not a udev bug | 06:46 |
| Keybuk | you're well within your rights to reject it | 06:46 |
| mbiebl | ;-) | 06:46 |
| mbiebl | The problem with console owner is, that it makes logd pretty useless. | 06:47 |
| Keybuk | right | 06:47 |
| Keybuk | needs improvement | 06:48 |
| AlexExtreme | Yes, I pointed that out on upstart-devel. /var/log/boot contains nothing then | 06:48 |
| AlexExtreme | maybe I should try improving it for something to do? ;) | 06:48 |
| AlexExtreme | anyway, gotta go | 06:48 |
| mbiebl | Keybuk: you know, I want to give the user the choice, if they want verbose output or not. | 06:48 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl: *nods* | 06:48 |
| mbiebl | So imho udev needs this "fix" | 06:48 |
| Keybuk | md is well within his rights to refuse the fix | 06:49 |
| mbiebl | Well, I guess I'll just ask Md to add " -o $TTY /dev/null" to his am_i_interactive check. | 06:49 |
| Keybuk | *nods* | 06:49 |
| Keybuk | that may be a good compromise | 06:49 |
| Keybuk | talk to him about it | 06:49 |
| Keybuk | Marco responds very well to conversation through medium other than the BTS | 06:50 |
| mbiebl | hehe | 06:50 |
| mbiebl | What about cryptsetup, how do solve that in ubuntu? | 06:51 |
| mbiebl | exec <1>2 /dev/console ? | 06:51 |
| mbiebl | I mean: exec </dev/console >/dev/console 2>&1? | 06:56 |
| mbiebl | Seems a bit "hackish" to add that to a dozen of init scripts. | 06:56 |
| mbiebl | Wouldn't it be better to have something like input/output functions, which forward the request to upstart instead of doing the input/output itself. | 06:57 |
| mbiebl | Would something like that be possible. | 06:58 |
| _ion | They should support a splash program as well. | 06:59 |
| mbiebl | _ion: yes, it wouldn't matter how this information is presented. | 06:59 |
| _ion | I don't think upstart needs to know about them, though. | 06:59 |
| mbiebl | Keybuk: what are your top priorities for upstart in the near future? | 07:08 |
| mbiebl | I wanted to "convert" existing init scripts and noticed that "pid file" and "multiple events" support are needed for a lot of services. | 07:09 |
| mbiebl | I hacked together some kind of pid file support, which works most of the time. | 07:11 |
| mbiebl | But it's rather hard to do that right. | 07:12 |
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| cortana | ugh, i thought one of the advantages of upstart is to do away with pidfiles? | 07:27 |
| mbiebl | cortana: there are still services which don't deal well with being started in foreground. | 07:32 |
| mbiebl | They have to be tracked somehow. Most of them write pid files. | 07:32 |
| _ion | Use the "daemon" stanza | 07:32 |
| mbiebl | _ion: this only works, if the "daemon" does not fork and detach. | 07:35 |
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| _ion | /* daemon (WS <command>)? | 07:36 |
| _ion | * indicates that the process forks into the background | 07:36 |
| _ion | * so we need to grovel for its process id | 07:36 |
| mbiebl | _ion: try it, you'll see that it doesn't work for daemon's which fork | 07:38 |
| _ion | Then it has a bug, which should be fixed. | 07:38 |
| mbiebl | Is it even possible for upstart to determine the pid of the forked process? | 07:39 |
| mbiebl | I dunno. | 07:39 |
| mbiebl | How should it be done? By traversing /proc checking for a process with the same name as the binary specified in the upstart job file? | 07:42 |
| mbiebl | Wouldn't work reliably imo. | 07:43 |
| AlexExtreme | yeah, i mean, what if the daemon changes the process title or forks itself into multiple processes | 07:44 |
| mbiebl | AlexExtreme: exactly. | 07:45 |
| _ion | keybuk: Could you share your insight on the issue? | 07:46 |
| _ion | IIRC it has something to do with pid 1 getting SIGCHLD for parentless processes. | 07:50 |
| mbiebl | _ion: hm, ok. but take hald e.g. which spawns several sub processes. | 07:54 |
| mbiebl | How do you know, which one is the controlling daemon. | 07:54 |
| _ion | I haven't studied how upstart handles or is supposed to handle that. | 07:55 |
| _ion | Let's wait for Keybuk's answer. :-) | 07:55 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl: input/output functions are the expected way to do it | 08:12 |
| Keybuk | then we can provide implementations that deal with console, usplash, text-to-speech, braille, etc. | 08:12 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl: current list in my head is | 08:12 |
| Keybuk | 1. fix the IPC stuff | 08:12 |
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| Keybuk | 2. implement the events changes we've talked about | 08:12 |
| Keybuk | 3. multiple events, optional events | 08:13 |
| Keybuk | 4. event completion notification | 08:13 |
| Keybuk | 5. job changes we've talked about | 08:13 |
| Keybuk | 6. temporal jobs | 08:13 |
| Keybuk | 7. user jobs | 08:13 |
| Keybuk | and, on pid location, the idea is that you spawn the daemon | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | and then look for either the /proc/*/exe matching "pid binary" | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | or the "pid file" file which should contain the pid | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | we get SIGCHLD for these later | 08:14 |
| sladen | it would certainly be more consistent if upstart does the handling of pid saving | 08:15 |
| mbiebl | Regarding the /proc/*/exe matching: How would you handle e.g. sshd? | 08:17 |
| mbiebl | It spawns several sub processes for each connected user and you certainly don't want to kill the wrong pid ;-) | 08:17 |
| Keybuk | sladen: this is for processes that fork | 08:18 |
| Keybuk | mbiebl: first one | 08:19 |
| Keybuk | you only locate the pid once | 08:19 |
| Keybuk | then again, sshd would be run with -D | 08:19 |
| mbiebl | But what if you start multiple instances of a daemon. | 08:19 |
| mbiebl | (SSH on prt 24 and 22 e.g.) | 08:20 |
| _ion | I thought you can set both in sshd_config. | 08:21 |
| madduck | you can | 08:22 |
| madduck | you might want to have different settings though | 08:22 |
| mbiebl | But I guess most daemons either write pid files are can be run properly in foreground. | 08:22 |
| madduck | my port 22 sshd never allows root access. | 08:22 |
| mbiebl | So this option is not that important. | 08:22 |
| madduck | i have an sshd allowing without-password on a port that changes often | 08:22 |
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| _ion | Btw, instances of sshd spawned for logged-in users have the initial sshd as their parent. | 08:24 |
| mbiebl | Md: hi | 08:27 |
| Keybuk | indeed, it's only the multiple-daemon-that-pid-is-1 that's a problem | 08:30 |
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